5 Things We Learned at the Leogang DH World Cup 2019

Jun 10, 2019 at 10:13
by Ed Spratt  
Loic Bruni

The third round of the World Cup in Leogang provided another weekend of exciting racing with some of the closest racing in the venue's history, here are five things we noticed from the sidelines:

1. This race was close... even for Leogang

The track in Leogang is known for its tight racing with only two races resulting in a winning margin of more than two seconds in the past ten races held at the venue. This race was no different with the second closest winning margin ever recorded at the venue in the men's race. The 0.324-second gap between Loic Bruni and Greg Minnaar was only beaten by the incredibly narrow win by Aaron Gwin over Connor Fearon, just 0.045.

Looking further down the results sheet, the racing remained close with the top 10 riders being separated by 3.562 seconds. This is also second closest race in Leogang, beaten only by the 2014 race won by Josh Bryceland (the last World Cup win on a 26" bike) where the top 10 were within 2.905 seconds of his winning time. Looking even further down to the top 40 racers, the story stays the same with the close racing of 2014 coming out on top and the 2019 racing following shortly behind with 40 riders separated by just 9.382. The largest gap to 40th place was in 2011 where there was over a 19-second gap to the top spot.

Loic Bruni making up for a difficult qualifying by doing it when it matters most and winning in Leogang in 2019.

2. Thibaut Daprela is one of the most consistent juniors ever

The current French domination of World Cup downhill might be led by the likes of Amaury Pierron, Loic Bruni and Loris Vergier in the Elite ranks but in the Junior Men, there is another young Frenchman with complete control over the competition. The Commencal Vallnord rider Thibaut Daprela has won 8 of the 10 World Cup races he has attended over the past two seasons and the two races he didn't win he still came second in. Thibault also currently sits on a seven-race winning streak and hasn't been beaten in a World Cup for a whole year now. For comparison, Finn Iles won 10 races across his two full seasons of racing with a maximum streak of 5 in a row.

Thibaut Daprela is a force to be reckoned with 1.9seconds in the clear today.

3. The Leogang track changes for 2019 were a success

Leogang is often referred to as the 'bikepark' track of the World Cup circuit with high speeds and a mostly manicured surface, Phil Atwill even rode the track in practice on a hardtail back in 2017. For 2019, the trail crew put in some surprises that would shake things up across the weekend and even put in some entirely new sections of the track featuring multiple different lines.

The changes definitely upped the difficulty level and we saw riders like Amaury Pierron, Rachel Atherton, and Loris Vergier all go down on the revised course. Despite the efforts to make the track slower and potentially allow for bigger winner margins though, the winning time was only six seconds slower than 2018 in the men's race and was one of the closest races at the venue too.

Say what The now course diverts off to the right of the fade- away that has escorted riders down to the finish line for so many seasons.

4. Tracey Hannah's consistency finally paid off

On the dusty Leogang track, Tracey proved once again why she is one of the world's best. After three back to back qualifying wins this year, it was only a matter of time before she would take the top step of the podium in 2019. The Australian took her fourth ever World Cup win this past weekend adding to her wins in Schladming (2007), Pietermaritzburg (2012) and her last win at Fort William back in 2017. In the finish area, she said this one was extra special as it was the first time she's beaten Rachel for the win when both of them were in the start gate.

Despite it being over two years since her last win on the world stage, Hannah is one of the most consistent riders on the circuit. Since 2006 she has only dropped off the podium in 16 of the 54 World Cup races she has finished. In that same time period, she was only outside the top 10 once, getting an 11th place finish at Val Di Sole back in 2013.

She s been riding with confidence all season and was finally rewarded today.

5. It was a great weekend for privateer racers

The exciting racing in Leogang also saw some great results from the privateer racers that made it into finals. Nina Hoffmann improved upon her sixth and third position at previous rounds and went one better crossing the line in second. Kate Weatherly got her first podium too, coming in just over two seconds behind Hannah.

In the Elite Men, the standout privateer of the weekend had to be Johannes Von Klebelsberg, rocking up to a World Cup and riding in blue jeans is always going to get you noticed and they didn't seem to slow him down either. He qualified 16th and it was all go for the finals where he finished just eight seconds off Bruni in 31st.

69 and jeans. Privateer Johannes von Klebelsberg rode to 16th place.

Wyn Masters' new Privateer of the Week award went to the denim destroyer Johannes Von Klebelsberg and in an Instagram story, Masters said how when they tried to call Johannes to give him the prize money he was already halfway home as he had to work on Monday morning. He had also spent the whole weekend riding with his phone in his jeans pocket in case he got a call from his job as a restaurant manager.

The UCI currently follows IOC rules that transgender athletes must have total testosterone levels below 10 nmol/L during and for at least 12 months before competition.

The debates about transgender athletes, inclusion, and fairness are contentious. As these conversations unfold, please remember that there are other people at the end of your words. We expect the comments on Pinkbike to be respectful and constructive.

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edspratt avatar

Member since Mar 16, 2017
2,720 articles

  • 192 17
 6. Coverage sucked. They lost 1/3rd of the run on coverage, including the zones that caused most of the problems. So you wouldn't know wtf happened to someone... just that they were dirty and out of the running.

7. Minnaar's still got it.
  • 27 115
flag blowmyfuse (Jun 11, 2019 at 15:31) (Below Threshold)
 You don't know much about filming a mountain bike race. They did amazing for a mile of trail in the trees live. I'm glad I didn't see most of the wrecks. The jersey told the story and on a track like this, most of the wrecks are mundane as evidenced by the injury tally.
  • 63 2
 @bizutch: Just because something is difficult doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. Sure dirty jersey = crash, but when the commentators are talking about one section being the difference maker and we can't see it the frustration is understandable.
  • 31 0
 would have liked to see the rock section which creared so many gaps..
  • 75 2
 I'd happily lose the footage of them going over loads of jumps in a straight line, for 1 extra section of rocks/roots/corners.
  • 1 4
 @jrocksdh: @jrocksdh: I don’t believe it was the rock section like they were saying on coverage, I think it must of been the woods before the roots section they had on coverage; the section before that is very rooty, off camber and tight.

The guys who put time into competition between splits 3 and 4 such as Minnaar and Bruni looked to be going visibly faster in that section then everyone else other then maybe Brosnan and Harrison.
  • 5 3
 Still blown away by Bruni's run, then Minnar almost caught him. He is old right hehehehe, might make Gwins WC pursuit a lot more difficult, basically 2 goats are battling.
  • 8 3
 Now I understand what people meant with "RB trying to appeal to non-mtb crowd" - only the very motorsporty/fast-pacy sections shown, leaving techs ( where crashes might happen ) completely neglected - all them "he's pulling away" gimmicks are cool but meh !

They're not doing this to please the MTB gang, they're in this to make money - we'll revisit comment sections like this one in a couple of years where everything is motorway style with jumps and wallrides, and not a single root section to go thorigh;
  • 12 1
 On the other hand, the drone shot through the stump section was sick
  • 37 6
 8. Rob and Claudio are repeating themselfs every race. Most of the time, I can tell what they are going to say. Maybe RB should add a third Person or even change Claudio for someone else like Ben Cathro or Eliot Jackson.
  • 7 1
 @The-Mango-Kid: Cathro would be rad. Cam McCaul. THere's a few I could think of. But I like where you're heads at with Ben.
  • 18 3

The most royally f$cking annoying thing the commentators do is disclose what happened in the Womens race when commenating on the mens race! I sometimes watch the men first which then takes the excitement out of watching the women.

Also having Claudio taking about split times only can see, and with his constant negative comments does my tits in.
  • 1 1
 @The-Mango-Kid: i sometimes wonder: isn't claudio's english... Strange to native english speakers?
gewd, right there, all over the place... In every sentence.
  • 3 1
 @The-Mango-Kid: It's feasable ;D
  • 4 1
 Just as bad as not filming the right sections, was the fact we couldn't see the ground on much of it after the motorway. Very hard to see differences in lines.
  • 3 0
 @Luis-Sc: They have literally just added a rooty and loamy section in to the track haha. seems maybe the track builders have listened. I guess it just depends on what Red Bull end up televising in the future though. hopefully as time moves on we'll start to see more of the track overall anyway.

Losinj was awesome because it was all televised and just a massive rock garder. More of that please!
  • 17 0
 @StraightLineJoe: To be fair I think it's a little much asking them not to mention the womens race in the mens. I feel your pain, I hate it when someone ruins the result for me, but if you watch the races in any order other than the order they happened in, then it's kinda your own fault if you hear a spoiler.
  • 3 1
 @gabriel-mission9: I'm happy enough with them not spoiling winners in their app - I've been working crazy OT and it's nice to watch it without knowing what it happened - having that said, was truly feeling Tracys race as I didn't know the outcome before hand
  • 8 2
 Maybe this is another reason for Redbull to employ Cathro - he has an excellent understanding of where the races are won and lost and could perhaps advise on camera positioning? Clearly it needs to be balanced with technical difficulty (getting the camera to the location and all that goes into using it there) but it could work...
  • 4 3
 @xice: hell yeah. When Gracia was on Freecaster he had an accent, but at least it was pretty smooth and listenable. Claudio must have compromising photos of someone at red bull.
  • 3 1
 @Luis-Sc: And then you have friends who wattsapp you messages containing the single word "Bruniiiiii!" just as you're settling down to take in the replay. After several previous requests never to it again.
  • 2 1
  • 1 1
 @owl-X: Wait... What?
  • 1 1
  • 1 1
 @BenPea: hahahah - nop - not many watch it - and i just stay away from spoilers - at all costs !
  • 3 7
flag blowmyfuse (Jun 12, 2019 at 13:15) (Below Threshold)
 @Rigidjunkie: Wow. 79 douchebag downvotes for my comment? Welcome to self absorbed me era Mr. Butch.
It just sounds like a bunch of ungrateful, whiny little crybabies who don't realize just how lucky we are right now to even have coverage of one of the single hardest sports to film live in this world.

I've watched coverage increase exponentially over the years and have a great grasp of what it takes to film DH in the woods over a course that ranges from 1-2 miles in length. Those who aren't satisfied are just unaware of how good the product they are seeing is.

Could we have seen everything? Sure, but the most relevant crash of the race happened on flat gravel in full view of most every spectator there & every single person watching it on live or replay TV.

Also, people don't seem to grasp that a slow, techy rock section is going to be the most mundane thing on video to watch, even though it multiplies the time gap on a track like this. It's an utter impossibility to just guess with the cameras where carnage will happen. Wish people would stop being so damn ungrateful & realize how good we have it. But what can I expect from people who didn't witness OLN coverage, then NO coverage, then some random website coverage, then Freecaster, then the crap shoot that bought them & now RedBullTV, which is flat out amazing.
  • 1 1
 @Luis-Sc: that was targeted spoiling. Possibly a crime. But he was happy, so...
  • 2 1
 @bizutch: Rocky Roads... I love this tinpot sport. Other than certain commentators and the lack of rounds it's all good coveragewise. There's no money in DH to make it perfect.
  • 2 3
 @BenPea: @BenPea: thanks for reminding me. Geez...it's just that people don't get how recently our sport sucked horribly and how difficult it is to cover now. Not to mention, I remember what resorts have had to do to gut their beautiful woodland environments just to make these events close to filmable.

I wonder if people notice the clearcutting that goes on to get site lines for these events that most other sports don't even think about.
  • 1 1
 @bizutch: True, and without the internet and an Austrian sugardaddy, forget about it...
  • 2 1
 @bizutch: I think people are upset that they showed nearly all of the motorway section and the wall rides which are fairly mundane but missed out all the techy sections that are difficult to ride and subsequently had more impact on times & crashes.
  • 2 0
 @The-Mango-Kid: agreed about Claudio's style...plenty of others more capable.
  • 1 1
 It's been said a few times before, but let's give it another try.
The Riders start in 2min - 3min gaps while the time for them to get into the finish line is 3:15. Of course you can't cut to the next rider as soon as they cross the line, which means you need at least another 10-15sec, and also at the start you'd want to see them a few seconds before they're off, and you also want to see some replays of the run.
So, to see all of the run, you would need around 4min gaps.

With a 3 minute gap, it's not possible to show at least 1 minute of the Racerun.
Next Problem is, that you need to be live-.live to actually see the timing of the run, that's why the start of the racerun is prerecorded, and then comes the cut to the live.

The more you think about it, the more you'll see that it's simply not possible to stitch the run together live and feature the most interesting zones.
  • 1 0
 @fivesixseven: As I know, that you are right, my idea is to film the sections, that are really interesting and go live right after that. In Leogang, that would have be en just another camera right after that off-camber at the start. I don't get, why at Fort William for example it is important to film the bridges. There were a few cameras after the start. In Leogang was only one. With some insight, they would have gotten more cameras at the start. Yeah, the track is shorter than Fort William and people want to see the motorway, but you never see the riders start live anyway, so with more cameras, you would at least have the option to broadcast interesting sports and sections at the top. If something happens there, show the run till there, if nothing happens, they can decide to go live, whenever they want.
  • 1 0
 @BenPea: its kinda funny. Rob has to stay sober and hold back. Claudio has to try too hard.
I mean hes a top bloke, but commenting might not be his number 1 talent.
  • 1 0
 @xice: understatement of the week
  • 138 29
 I had really mixed feelings watching the women's race. I'm pretty damn progressive, but it's odd watching a trans person podium at a WC. Anyone else feel a bit guilty questioning the fairness of it all?
  • 43 8
 It's been discussed a bit.
  • 54 98
flag Rigidjunkie (Jun 11, 2019 at 15:57) (Below Threshold)
 Didn't know and don't care. After reading up on it the testosterone requirement it seems like the most fair way to approach this topic. The physical advantage men have is from testosterone, take that away and your body changes very quickly. 12 months at lower levels feels like a reasonable bar to compete.
  • 105 12
 @chriskneeland: I think it should be discussed a lot.
  • 61 21
 it isn't fair at all. There is no documented lack of athletic ability in any transgender transition among pro level athletes. So essentially most if not all athletes see minimal to no loss or gain in performance after the switch.
  • 50 2
 @Rigidjunkie: The physical advantage definitely isn't only from testosterone. Certain men and women have elevated levels, and it doesn't directly correlate to performance boosters. If their testosterone decreases but they don't lose any strength/power then that's a clear advantage.
  • 28 1
 @Rigidjunkie: Seems from the research, that's debatable. There is a fall off in performance, but only from their pre-transition baseline. And it varies by sport. Long distance runners have a much larger decrease in performance, but sprinters much less, suggesting that pre-transition competitive advantage remains. Then you have to consider the individual response to hormone suppression. A very complex debate.

@drangus it has. I was being facetious.
  • 37 57
flag kleinblake (Jun 11, 2019 at 16:12) (Below Threshold)
 She was 9.3 seconds back. A time gap that in men would have been in 40th place. There’s no evidence of an advantage here. If there were 60 women and Kate finished 40th with the exact same time no one would care at all.
  • 37 25
 I was pretty stoked, she’s on my fantasy team.
  • 19 20
 @zaalrottunda: I'm not really clued up on the topic, but this article suggested you are not quite right -


It was an interesting read, all those criticizing should probably read through beforehand.
  • 23 1
 I have serious reservations about how sports are currently categorized but I do sympathize with UCI and IOC as any change they make will have such far reaching implications. Hopefully they are carefully considering how to proceed and don't think that a simple testosterone cap is sufficient.
  • 91 12
 Try this....find any sport where FTM athletes are outcompeting males...now do the same w MTF...these are the relevant results...not estrogen/testosterone levels...trans should compete against trans and if their aren’t enough to compete get working on that aspect and it’s ironic how people who point out the legit hardships female racers already face are cool with this hardship happening, also ironic if anyone calls me a bigot etc for having this perspective...
  • 9 9
 @Milko3D: said better by ov3r1d3 :Try this....find any sport where FTM athletes are outcompeting males...now do the same w MTF...these are the relevant results...not estrogen/testosterone levels...trans should compete against trans and if their aren’t enough to compete get working on that aspect and it’s ironic how people who point out the legit hardships female racers already face are cool with this hardship happening, also ironic if anyone calls me a bigot etc for having this perspective..
  • 155 5
 @Rigidjunkie: It's a lot more than testosterone. Our skeletons are different for one. There is a lot of difference in the pelvis (due to a woman's able to give birth), leading to a greater angle between a females hip and knee, which causes more knee injuries in women. This phenomenon is known as the Q Angle. Female athletes also suffer from what is known as the triad, which includes a loss in bone density from training.

Our muscles are different too. There are over 3000 genes that express themselves differently between males and females.


"type-I fibers account for 36% of the total biopsy area in men and 44% in women, whereas type-IIA fibers account for 41% in men and only 34% in women (89)."

You don't need to be a kinesiologist to guess that Type-1 fibers are slow-twitch and Type-IIa fibers are the fast twitch type.

Let's go with another difference. Our brains.

"Men, on average, can more easily juggle items in working memory. They have superior visuospatial skills: They’re better at visualizing what happens when a complicated two- or three-dimensional shape is rotated in space, at correctly determining angles from the horizontal, at tracking moving objects and at aiming projectiles."

Men have superior visuospatial skills...think that might help when barreling down a trail at 40 mph?


It's called "sexual dimorphism". That is the term for the differences between males and females of a certain species. There's a lot there.
  • 17 5
 @Adamrideshisbike: Plus member with the clutch response.
  • 30 5
 I'm guessing that there are no regulations for a transgender athlete competing in the Male category?
It's kind of telling that these rules and regulations only exist in one direction, and I think it's because we all inherently know the performance difference between the genders comes from more than just a nmol/L measurement of an individual's testosterone.

It's a tough position for any governing body to be in, it'll be interesting to see how this plays out. It'll probably be road cycling that will test the policy in a more thorough manner, higher prize money will always draw more attention and competition, and roadies already have a bit of a history of doing "whatever it takes" to get a win.
I think the problems will more likely happen when you try to vet people who are genuinely transgender for their own social reasons, and those who will claim transgender to play the system. It's not going to take much for a masters (already lower testosterone) getting to a point where they meet the 10nmol/L criteria and getting a nice injection into the retirement fund by sweeping the field if they choose to do so. And good luck to anyone who wants to question the validity of such a gender claim without being crucified in the media.

Guess we'll just have to see how it all plays out.
  • 26 65
flag drangus (Jun 11, 2019 at 17:17) (Below Threshold)
 @Adamrideshisbike: So...science. But just imagine being Kate and doing this thing where there's effort, risk, doubt—there's something very punk rock about it and I think we need to recognize it as such.
  • 33 38
flag 29er1 (Jun 11, 2019 at 17:25) (Below Threshold)
 @Adamrideshisbike: there's also the penis
  • 48 6
 @drangus: I'm not sure the essence of punk rock is taking the easy way.... flying in the face of adversity is sort of less impressive when you benefit immensely from easier competition in the process.
  • 115 6
 @drangus: I don't disagree, but I have a science degree (surprise, surprise...in human kinetics...surprise, surprise) and I can't stand all the BS that gets bandied about.

I absolutely think Kate deserves respect and I can't imagine how hard it would be to have lived the life she has lived. And I would be her friend,ride bikes with her, crack beers, ... no problem.

But, personally, I don't think trans-women should compete in elite athletics. Female DH racers have a tough enough go already. Hell, there's a women that's been on the podium twice already this year that doesn't have a sponsor.
  • 45 1
 @Adamrideshisbike: Plot twist - Adam does more than just ride his bike.
  • 9 29
flag drangus (Jun 11, 2019 at 17:36) (Below Threshold)
 @zaalrottunda: are we talking about a cheater, or someone who is living the way they want, despite the need to fly in face of adversity?
  • 4 38
flag drangus (Jun 11, 2019 at 17:43) (Below Threshold)
 @Adamrideshisbike: And that's what's so strange to me: is sport exempt from rights? The biological superiority argument is historically flawed, in my opinion.
  • 27 0
 @drangus: historical flawed? Please explain.
  • 37 3
 @Adamrideshisbike: 100 % nailed it . in all ways. yup, support the trans-person absolutely, However, Its an advantage, trans have no business in elite sports with $ on the line. Its simply not fair .
  • 10 2
 As a marker of the effect of testosterone, how do trans men do competing at a high level? I really don’t have any idea. If the testosterone levels of a trans man is normalized to that of a young adult male, what happens? Is the trans-athlete able to compete with the other men? Are they at an advantage or disadvantage or does it vary by sport?

If a mid-pack female from this year transitions and next year kicks the poop out of the rest of the men’s field next year then I assume that we would all be cheering for that person.

In the big picture I’m very happy to see trans people out in the world being free to be themselves. This aspect trumps competitive sport to me. But I would like sport to be fair. I hope it is.
  • 60 8
 @Zaff: can we just lay off the argument that people are going to change gender to win a bike race. It’s just not going to happen. If it does I’ll eat my helmet. Let’s all accept that people who do change their gender have absolutely needed to so they can be the person they truly are.
Personally I do agree that the physical advantage of a trans athlete over female athletes is real, and needs to be dealt with. How to deal with it sensitively, now that’s where it gets tricky.
  • 5 40
flag drangus (Jun 11, 2019 at 17:59) (Below Threshold)
 @Adamrideshisbike: women's suffrage, racial segregation, etc...
  • 8 24
flag thedeathstar (Jun 11, 2019 at 18:02) (Below Threshold)
 @Adamrideshisbike: just as long as you're cool with her as a person while trying to be the arbiter on whether or not she can continue her profession.
  • 14 3
 @thedeathstar: Somebody's gotta do it. The UCI isn't.
  • 17 2
 @Rigidjunkie: while testosterone is certainly part of the picture, the bone structure of men and women is fundamentally different and creates real and permanent differences in leverage and strength.
  • 23 3
 I don’t feel guilty questioning it at all
  • 5 6
 @zaalrottunda: Molly Cameron still competes in elite men’s cyclocross and does quite well. And is still a huge advocate for women in cycling.
  • 16 2
 I'm just dropping in to say this is by far the most thoughtful and adult discussion on here ever except for a topic involving the passing of someone. Well fn done PBers.
  • 9 8
 @chriskneeland: The UCI has very clearly said she can. Do you mean someone has to say she can't?
  • 4 13
flag danncam (Jun 11, 2019 at 18:52) (Below Threshold)
 No. Gender, hormone levels and so are pretty complex. Have a dive into the complexities of intersex as an example. The rules are set and have evolved to a point where is seems fair
  • 9 7
 @Chewbiker: exactly! Nobody is changing their gender presentation to win bike races or spy on the ladies room. I do feel for the trans female athletes, living with gender dysphoria in a body that doesnt feel like yours so you can live your dream put and race bikes sucks. But not getting to race bikes because they're trans sucks too...
  • 23 9
Science is definitely not questionable and I personally am glad that people are taking into consideration how hard it already is for all female atheletes in all disciplines, yet some questions must be raised:
Given female transgender atheltes have said advantages, which I’m sure the UCI is aware of, I can imagine the testosterone level is sufficiently low as to asure a level playing field, while transgender women might have some advantages the level of testosterone could be viewed as a “balance” for that.

Is this the currently the case?

As for the male mind having a cognitive advantage on average, there are so many factors that weigh into brain development that it is quite possible women on a scale are less exposed to situations which stimulate such development, but the actual potential for male and females brains could be about the same, yet determining this is extremely difficult given so many variables. I have no doubt all WC DH women have a far better ability than me in those areas, for example.

I would also like to point out how separating transgender athletes into a separate category could cause trouble:

1) It would make it harder for them to recieve commercial attention, fans, and screen time, and could be an extinguisher for bringing more diversity into the sport.

2) There could exist huge disadvantages for some athletes who transitioned sooner/later, have more money or are more willing to consume certain enhancing hormones, etc.

I personally understand why we put certain restrictions on these atheletes but there is another question to be raised there:

Until what point is a persons body considered unfair? Cleary some atheltes have an enormous genetic advantage, Phelps has larger lungs compared to his body, some atheletes have larger legs compared to the rest of their body, the list goes on. We don’t put restrictions on them, so, when and where do we put restrictions in place?

Of course, it shouldn’t be an open field, that too would be injust. Drawing a line is quite difficult is all I’m saying here.

Great chat, stoked to see it veing carried out so respectfully. It would be awesome if more experts (I’m not) and transgender athletes chimed in.

  • 10 5
 @drangus I can see where you're coming from. And IF, (and that's a never) I ever decided to change my gender, I think my morality would stop me from competing in all races or competitions. Like many have said, there's a lot more to it than just testosterone levels. There shouldn't be a seperate class for these people: Kate was beat by a WOMAN, but still after a transition I don't think (morally) I would be able to compete in the same class as my new found gender.
  • 8 1
 @ov3r1d3: I made this same point in another article and haven't seen a response yet. If it's simply a difference in testosterone then we'd see former females entering the mens races, but I've yet to hear of that happening.
  • 5 3
 @superbarnes65: my confusion around this is whether we’re looking at this as a matter of someone waking up and being like, I wanna change gender, vs them struggling with the ability to be themselves their whole life because of how they might not be able to do the things that make them happy
  • 22 17
 Every bro has an opinion... I'd like to hear what women riders think?

I don't really think this is as complicated as ya'll make it. Lady is a lady, so she shreds with the ladies.
  • 29 9
 My wife said "it's really only an issue for the women to discuss..." I couldn't argue with her.
  • 8 2
 @JaToledo: In sports that recognize the size difference of a body as a matter of performance they usually move to weight classes.

What's clear enough with MTB'ing is that there is a yawing gap in performance between the top men and the top women in the sport. Both fields generally compete quite tightly amongst themselves despite the body size differences between the individuals in their categories. You only need to go as far as Leogang's Podium to observe that, 190cm tall Minaar with 167cm Brosnan with Loic in between them; all within a second of one another.

There is an 11% gap in the fastest mens and women's times from Sunday's Race.
If we take the mean times of the top five (3:48.7958 women, 3:17.2284 men) it's almost 13.79% gap between the genders.
The top 50 men's times have a 6% spread on them to put that into perspective.
The only times the fastest women are beating, are of the men that had MAJOR crashes (even then Kerr still came in with comparable time to Hoffman).

Now not all sports are the like this, some have much smaller gaps between men and women. But we have to deal with what we know, and as far as we can see, at the pointy end of the sport, there is a clear and insurmountable difference in performance between the genders, and the categories have been separated for good reason. The observation of such differences is the exact reason we split the sports in order to keep the playing field fair.

The corollary can also be argued, in matters where gender physiology doesn't really play a part, there isn't reason for splitting the fields; we still have men's and women's Archery and Shooting, E-sports, Chess, etc

Just to re-iterate my point from my earlier post, I don't think it's so much a problem as it stands. But it could be, especially if there is more prize money (large pushes in most sports lately to match the different gender's prize pools) and if people decide to game the system. I doubt it'll rear it's head so much in MTB'ing, but anywhere large amounts of prize money could be up for grabs is likely where we'll see these types of rules being stress tested; Golf, Tennis, Road Cycling.
  • 17 3
 @Lokirides: If it was that simple, then why are massive amounts of drugs involved?

So can women now (biological women) juice up their T levels to 10 nmol/L, the bar the IOC has set for transgender women? Will it be like what wrestlers do with weight cutting, but in reverse? Can a woman hyper elevate her T levels for a few years and train, then get them down to 10 nmol/L for the 12 months proceeding competition? Can women now take other steroids, so long as their T levels are at the IOC specified levels?
  • 12 10
 @herzalot: your wife is right. Let men worry about the men's race and the women worry about theirs.
  • 9 19
flag Rubberelli (Jun 11, 2019 at 21:56) (Below Threshold)
 @Adamrideshisbike: If trans only competed against trans, then Kate wou,d certainly be the best. At Fort Bill, the winner would have come in 22 seconds behind the women's winner. It would even usually come behind the junior women. If Rachel, Tahnee and Tracey arent complaining, then I dont see why any guy should be unless they are just wanting to discriminate against something they don't like.
  • 31 10
If all men stop watching the womens race, there wouldn’t be a womens race. So yes, the opinion of the men also counts.
  • 10 1
 It's an enormously complicated issue. I was on the fence thinking it's nothing to be upset about but at this point I think a lot more investigation and critical thinking needs to be done before transgender athletes are allowed to compete professionally. Based on all of the information I've been able to find, there is an unfair advantage when a man transitions to female and competes professionally. It's not just hormone levels that should decide the issue, as bone density, muscle mass, and VO2 max are all, on average higher for men, and still elevated long term for transgender women.
  • 7 1
 @chriskneeland: Lol, no worries about drangus, I got it, so it by no means fell flat and whooshed... If I get it... Razz
"It's been discussed a bit" Understatement of the day. Salute to your facetiousness. @drangus: It's been a debate on pretty much every WC article of late. And to echo what @andrewfif said, I don't think guilty is the right word. Do I (we) want to be sensitive etc and not total jerks? Sure. But questioning isn't wrong; something needs to be worked out.
  • 3 4
 @zaalrottunda: I know people who transitioned male to female on the road where they saw significant power drops, inline with what you might expect from similar caliber riders in both fields.

That said there is more to downhill than pedalling power
  • 8 14
flag fracasnoxteam (Jun 11, 2019 at 22:35) (Below Threshold)
 @herzalot: she's damn right. Again, male talking about what women can or should think or do.
  • 7 19
flag mcozzy (Jun 11, 2019 at 22:52) (Below Threshold)
 I wont bother watching again till the current farce gets resolved. Its turned into a circus sideshow.
  • 9 2
 @SangamonTaylor: This is what wikipedia has to say about that: „Pro cyclocross racer Molly Cameron has long identified as a woman, but has raced in the elite men's scene since 2008 after being harassed in the women’s peloton.“
  • 2 12
flag wasabijones (Jun 11, 2019 at 23:45) (Below Threshold)
 My girlfriend had the best idea: get rid of womens and mens riding altogether and instead bracket and group by speed. I think its brilliant!
  • 9 3
 As I understand it, the idea of any division (age, pro vs amateur, etc) in sports is to group athletes by similar potential, such that those in each group are competing against other athletes of similar maximum potential. This is generally held to be better for participation and engagement in the given sport, as well as closeness of the competition for spectators.

Gender, as it has been defined until recently, has strongly correlated to groups of similar athletic potential and thus been a reasonable way of providing groupings for athletes to compete against others of similar potential. A number of countries have recently redefined gender such a way that this correlation is no longer true. This means the definition of the categories previously based on gender must be redefined to continue to have athletes grouped by maximum potential, which most athletes and spectators seemed pretty happy with, or the gender grouping needs to be dropped as it no longer serves the intended purpose.

Trying to redefine gender categories based on testosterone and estrogen levels has proven to be a failure, the small percentage of transgender athletes competing in the top level sports are skewed heavily towards the high end of the performance distribution and setting of records.

In my opinion, the best thing to do is define categories based on chromosome pairs instead of gender. Your body, your life, identity as you want, compete in the category that places you against other athletes of similar performance potential. Estrogen shots and the like are no different than poor training, poor sleep, or poor nutrition in terms of being choices you make that end up limiting your ability to realise your own maximum potential and the fact that you choose that should not influence the grouping, which is based on maximum potential, into which you are placed.

Alternatively, get rid of gender categories altogether because as of right now they are increasingly failing to serve their originally intended purpose.
  • 7 15
flag hirvi (Jun 12, 2019 at 0:00) (Below Threshold)
 @mcozzy: You're the kind of people we don't need here. Go back to you're cave and stay there.

Best comment so far: Every bro has an opinion, let the women discuss.

IF you have a problem with it, turn to www.olympic.org, whose rules are being followed here. Your bitter comments here won't make any difference, not for the better anyway.
  • 7 2
 @hirvi: how does shouting down someone saying they don't like the current state of affairs and won't watch help?

In many different sports, there have been and will continue to be athletes who compete in age groups that they are no longer eligible for and more often than not, place very highly in that category. In other words, an athlete places themselves in a pool against other athletes of lower maximum potential, in this example due to age differences. This is terribly poor sportsmanship and damages the competition for the other athletes and spectators. Many find such conduct reprehensible and often choose to disengage from the activity if such conduct goes on unchecked.

How and why should a grouping of athletes of similar maximum potential defined by gender rather than age be exempted from similar responses?
  • 6 25
flag grantschooling (Jun 12, 2019 at 1:01) (Below Threshold)
 dont all female mtb cyclists look like men anyway
  • 4 3
 @herzalot @hirvi No, unfortunately she's not right.
We have brains and we can discuss things, even if we're not the ones to make the decision, it helps if our half of the population is engaged, knowledgeable and open minded. So, not only we can discuss it - we should!

@Adamrideshisbike interesting, I learned a couple of things from your post.
Most people here say 'yeah, but it's not only about testosterone', which fair enough it apparently isn't, but from what I gather - muscle composition, bone density, and a plethora of other things also change when transitioning and there have been some studies on it, so the advantages quickly diminish, no?

Also @JaToledo and @Zaff raise some good points.
I can't even imagine the backlash from society if sports are no longer split by M/F but something else instead.

I'm wondering, would we be having this conversation if Kate didn't get good results? Which after all is the ultimate goal.
  • 24 5
 Should just use an XX / XY system of deciding who you compete with. Someone born with XY chromosomes quite obviously has an advantage. Disregarding truth for the sake of people's feelings I'm not a big fan of.
  • 6 3
 @fracasnoxteam: You're absolutely right, this is a case of "male talking about what women can or should think or do"

BUT, to some extent, this is also a case of "(ex)man inviting self to women's field and being quite close to dominating it"... almost like there are only 9 spots left to compete for in women's top 10.

For the record : I'm not saying that this is Kate's intention, but there is definitely some irony here.
  • 8 2
 I actually wanted Kate to go first place. Then start a winning frenzy. This would certainly put this up to debate (as currently happening on other sports). Funny that it is really rare to see this happening the other way around.
  • 5 1
 @mcozzy: Forget the race - go straight to the comments!!
  • 10 2
 @Rubberelli: Probably because they are sponsored riders and don't wish to generate a negative backlash against their brands in this PC world we live in. If they are not happy with this then I hope they will be smart enough to complain via the right channels.

The IOC guideline are simply wrong and need to be changed.

The UCI should think for itself and find a fair resolution to this issue. What are the chances of that?
  • 13 1
 @Milko3D: I can't find the studies, but that doesn't mean they aren't out there. The only thing I could find was this review from 2017:Sport and Transgender People: A Systematic Review of the Literature Relating to Sport Participation and Competitive Sport Policies

It talks a lot about participation, discrimination, but had little to say about physiology.

"In summary, there is limited research from which to draw any conclusion about whether transgender people have an athletic advantage in competitive sport or not. The limited physiological research conducted to date has informed the development of transgender sport policies that are implemented by sporting organisations all over the world. It is these sport policies that appear to be instrumental in transgender people’s experiences with competitive sport, most of which are negative."

The above study was written by activists, whose work seems mostly to be about eating disorders previously and other things to do with psychology, which is fine, but I'd be interested in a study done by a sports physiologist where things like lung function, reaction times, strength testing were performed. If those studies exist, I'd be interested in reading them.

Personally, I'd be surprised if some advantage was not retained. Men and women are different. And it's not a post-puberty thing, it's starts in utero. Hell, men have greater lung capacity. That alone is pretty hard to account for if people are going to claim "level-playing field."
  • 1 1
 @ov3r1d3: fully agree.
  • 6 9
 @Adamrideshisbike: You make a compelling argument, but using a broad brush for trans athletes frames it in a way that all trans athletes will either take advantage of the system or routinely and unfairly beat their cis? competitors. It’s too theoretical and, frankly, discriminatory.
  • 13 3
 @drangus: I wouldn't call physiology all that theoretical a field of study, but I respect that you think trans should be able compete regardless.

And I would also like to say that I don't think Kate Weatherly is trying to take advantage of the system. I think she is a person trying to live her life. I do however disagree with UCIs ruling and I do feel that trans athletes would "routinely and unfairly beat their competitors" in certain sports, such as downhill mountain biking.
  • 3 2
 @Adamrideshisbike: agreed. I don't think Kate is actually using the system to take advantage. But this discussion will only come into play for real once Kate starts getting top spots on WC races on a consistent basis and start fighting against the top 3 ladies.
  • 4 9
flag drangus (Jun 12, 2019 at 5:42) (Below Threshold)
 @Adamrideshisbike: You’re specifically referring to trans women and I think that’s problematic.
  • 17 2
 @Rubberelli: The Women will not complain in public because they fear losing sponsorship. They just have to grin and bear it until the rules are changed.
  • 5 3
 @Adamrideshisbike: don't you think this would just be easiest if they had there own league? We already separate genders and age groups. Just start a transgender only league. No?
  • 9 5
 @dwmetalfab: Here's a quote from the article I linked a bit above which got downvoted because people didn't read past the title:

Some remained unconvinced.

"Sorry Kate, I feel for you in this situation, but I don't think it's fair on the biological girls," someone posted. "Maybe a new gender neutral class should be created?"

That's a common suggestion, but doesn't appeal to Weatherly.

"My thing is, I'm not gender neutral, I'm a girl. The whole idea of a third category invalidates my sense of identity."
  • 1 1
 Posting just to keep tabs....
  • 7 10
 @d3ftone: FYI, XX and XY are NOT the only two chromosomal configurations. Have you thought about how common it is for people to be born "intersex" or as hermaphrodites? .05% of 7 billion is a pretty large number. Also there are many other chromosomal abnormalities: www2.palomar.edu/anthro/abnormal/abnormal_5.htm So I'm left with going back to my original idea: if she says she's a lady, she's a lady. If he says he's a guy, he's a guy. It's not your body, so it's not your choice.
  • 7 0
 No the disadvantages do not disappear quickly and some never go away. @Milko3D:
  • 10 1
 You know what they say “facts don’t care about feelings” @d3ftone:
  • 7 2
 @Lokirides: So if we can't create categories for each difference or "abnormality" then we should eliminate divisions based on sex all together. Sorry ladies, but competing against the elite men is the only fair way forward. Good luck.
  • 7 1
 @BeerGuzlinFool: exactly. I wouldn't touch this hot potato if I were a top WC female racer. I rather have money on my bank account at the end of the month than raise this issue as a public statement.
  • 2 4
 @Adamrideshisbike: Given your science carreer, do you believe the advantages of being born a sexual male are diminished enough by regulations so that it is a fair race currently in UCI events? If not, why? Which would be a correct rule?

I would also like to comment how certain restrictions on transgender athletes could be equally unfair, if they are forced to keep a maximum of physical effort/potential which bars them from achieving their best performance. At what point is it acceptable? When they are equal to average women? Average racers? The best racer? Would it be ethical to force a trangender athlete to compete at a level which is not his or her potential?

Given how complicated this is, and the UCI’s investment and effort for doping and transgender atheltes, as well as how seriously they take this aspect of the sport, I trust their effort and rule, and believe it must be fair, or else they would have kept investigating and come up with a better limit.

PS: It’s rude at the least the way people are referring to Kate and transgender people. You don’t have to be to say that you believe she belongs in another category. This alot more than “feelings” and “abnormalities”.
  • 10 5
 @Milko3D: from now on I'm transponsored. I'm not sponsored, but brands should treat me`the way I feel! Where is my M29 with prototype fox suspension?
  • 4 2
 @flaviotsutsui: Go and race, see if you qualify and based on your results, consistency, hard work and dedication not to mention personality, we'll see...you might get your M29.

Good luck!

Any other questions?
  • 6 2
 @Zaff: Well, if there was the same amount of people in the female category and the male category, there would be much less of a difference I believe between these times. There would be a greater talent/gene pool, and there would probably be many more women competing at a higher level. I dont believe it would be the same, but it’ll be alot closer.

This reveals something important, women join this sport alot less than men. This thread itself is a sausage fest. Alot of women join because of dads and brothers but what guy joins because of mother/sisters? For more women to opt into our sport we need to be more open minded and encourage them and their skills from a younger age. Part of this is believing that soley because of today’s differences women are that much less capable of riding hard. News flash buddies, girls can achieve similar power to weight rations, equal technical abilities, are just as capable of strategy and experience. With more of them the level they have as an overall will rise. Just look at XC and how much cooler the womens races are compared to guys.

I’m not even going to start on how women participating in the same volume as men would benefit the industry.
  • 11 5
 @Lokirides: So even though I'm 34, if I still live with my parents I should be allowed to compete in the juniors, because thats how I identify? If I take performance enhancing drugs, but thats part of my identity, I still should be allowed to compete because its my body, therefore my choice?
  • 6 3
 @Adamrideshisbike: exactly. Nobody is saying Kate shouldn't be treated like a human being, but rather that it doesn't seem fair to other competitors to ignore some obviously unbalanced competition.
  • 11 5
 @zaalrottunda: The answer is simple. I you are a man, or were ever a man, at any point in your life, you must compete in the men's category. End of story. Noone is keeping Kate from competing.
  • 3 4
 Im guessing alot of guys here must have zero issue with trangender male athletes taking all kinds of steroids given how “no treatment or conditions” established by the sports ruling body will ever equal out the playing field????
  • 4 2
 @Milko3D: that’s hate speech against my feeling as a transponsored person. ????????????????????
  • 6 2
 @flaviotsutsui: Haha Smile

I don't know man, I just remember the last couple of seasons how people were complaining about Rachel dominating the girls, how she should compete with the guys, that it was unfair that she grew up biking with Gee and Dan and taking the men's lines...

What about financial/geographical disadvantages, when are we gonna bitch about those? Next year? I have a few message drafts already!
  • 5 1
 @Milko3D: I could write a book on lost MTB potential in latin america Frown
  • 2 6
flag hirvi (Jun 12, 2019 at 9:57) (Below Threshold)
 @Milko3D: I didn't say this matter can't be discussed, only that bitter comments here won't help.

Here's also some good discussions going on here, but calling the current state of the sport "a farce and a sideshow" is something else.

Peace and out.
  • 6 6
 Honestly, I think mountain biking is way more about skill and ability than pure fitness, so it doesn't matter much if you have the "better" physicality of previously being a male. Put it this way, Kate Weatherly had her best result there in Leogang, which is nowhere near as physical as Fort William where she did considerably worse. Even if you look at the men's absolute beasts like Brook MacDonald are loosing out to people with better skill on the bike, going back a couple of years people like Josh Bryceland were winning world cups and he ain't exactly a beefy boi. So I really don't think it matters in the competitive sport of Mountain biking - plus Kate was so god damn nice to everyone in the finish area =D
  • 4 2
 @JaToledo: you realise, that when it comes to XC, they go for an intended timeslot for each race (1hr 20mins - 1hr 40mins) and then try and predict how many laps will get that run time?

Average speeds in the men's top 20 are about of 19.5km/h vs the women's 16km/h (for Albstadt at least). You need to go back and look at the time sheets of the men's and the women's races, and then count the laps each category have raced to get a real perspective on the differences in the races.

I'm not saying the women's race isn't more of a spectacle, but they're still a long ways off being level with the men. If anything, XC displays an even larger performance gap than Enduro and DH; and in all cases it would appear to be insurmountable.
  • 6 1
 @Bruttle: As it has been said before, spatial awareness, shape recognition when moving quickly, reaction times, reflexes, etc are all higher in men than women. Even pre-puberty.
  • 3 8
flag blowmyfuse (Jun 12, 2019 at 11:15) (Below Threshold)
 @Adamrideshisbike: @thedeathstar: a profession she has willfully chosen, not been forced into as a slave. A profession that already had pretty clearly defined guidelines. The very simple statement is that we have 2 race categories with rules that start in order of Male/Female (Must meet guidelines of 1, not both categories) to compete.

I wasn't born transgender, but I've seen nudies of people with every kind of combo of genetics there is. And there are certainly tons of people that don't fall under the 2 category man/woman system. So maybe they need to figure out how to have their own genetically defined race category that matches them against those of their physical ability. But even in that category, there won't be a real established "winner".

Trans is almost like the men's 40+ category. Once you get to 40, you realize that being lumped in with everybody in your age group either firmly benefits the heck out of you if you've managed to stay uncrippled & fit & were naturally talented & hard working. That is very few of us hard asses. The rest of us lumped into it (to be FAIR) to everybody would need weight categories, lingering body injury categories, sight limitation categories, reaction time dulled by a percentage category, waste circumference category...etc.

Bottom line is that COMPETITION CATEGORY SELECTION only seems to BENEFIT transgenders who pick FEMALE. So it's obvious to any and all people involved in athletics that there is a COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE for transgenders slotting into the FEMALE category.

What does this imply for females who don't want to lose to a person who has a substantial difference in testosterone? It implies that they would have to RAISE their testosterone levels to attempt to even the playing field with their newfound competitor.

What is the black and white implication of a women having to amplify her testosterone to battle a transgender person? It means a FEMALE has to contemplate making herself TRANSGENDER to remain competitive.

I don't have the answers, but it's insanity. If we are going to race based on gender, there has to be a genetic testosterone cut off or my daughters should just forget about competing in any sport ever again.

My daughter just went to state in the 4x400. The only talk among the girls is about the person who is blowing the doors off women's track who has internal testicles. It looks pretty hopeless if you're a female athlete looking 4 years down the road in her event and know there will only be more like that person matched up against her...and the ONLY thing you can do to beat her is get your testosterone UP...UP...UP???
  • 3 1
 @Zaff: Yeah, XC is the discipline were the difference is the largest because of it’s huge physical nature. Yet, with a more equal amount of women, women have a field which currently shows more in depth talent and puts on better races. That’s were the difference is largest and as a spectacle and competition it’s probably where the men eclipse the ladies the least. Of course I know all that bro! We can’t denynthe difference between the two, but we also gotta get the similarities.
  • 2 1
 @bizutch: A very important point, there needs to be some sort of regulation, yet that’s what the UCI already did.

No clue what you’re thinking with females becoming transgender to “remain competitive” though. I might have misread your comment or you don’t really understand much about transgender people but could you explain this better?
  • 10 1
 @JaToledo: No the UCI have not - They just copied the IOC guidelines because they assumed the IOC know what they are doing.

In scientific circles the IOC have proven to be incompetent. Members of the IOC advisory committee advised that there is very little relevant research relating to transgender and intersex athletes and its an area that needs to be urgently researched.

The IOC have completely ignored the important issue of cellular male muscle memory. (as well as other evidence)

The guidelines are about to change so that the testosterone levels will now need to be below 5 for 12 months. One of the people advising them is a transgender runner. However even this reduction will still not level the playing field.

Then there is the welfare of athletes. women having to push themselves harder to compete. Trans athletes taking drugs so they can compete - what are the long term implications of that!

if the UCI don't get it right they will be paying out some serious $$££ in compensation.

The whole subject is a shit storm
  • 8 2
 @JaToledo: @JaToledo: sure. So assuming more and more transgender people become competitors in the women's field now that there are precedents of them racing in women's sports. My daughter is a 9th grader. She is a BEAST of a female athlete and other girls in sports around her think she's a fit freak of nature. If you've ever been to a high school track meet, those girls are the most dominant looking athletes you'll see.

If you're a 9th grade girl & your dream is to be the World Champion in the 400 meters & each year, more trans teens show up on the line, but you look around you and you're the fittest, fastest female and yet the trans person dwarfes you...what are you going to have to do to beat them? You've lifted every weight, taken everything there is to take nutritionally & you've slept every hour you can sleep & had the best Olympic staff taking care of you as a child prodigy.

Your only choice to become as powerful as the trans person is to take male enhancement drugs like testosterone. You're the best woman racer in the US but that's the only thing you can do to get to that trans person's level is to change your body to become closer to that grey area between male & female. If you do take that testosterone, you're pushing yourself closer to being just as trans as them.

I think where the line should have been drawn was making 2 clear distinctions:
1. It's OK to take male or female altering drugs like testosterone to be who you want to be in this world
2. It is NOT OK to take sex altering drugs to compete in Sex defined athletic events - REGARDLESS
3. Maybe an "Open" category at World Cup events is a band aid. But still...we're talking about trying to wedge a social construct into a non-socially constructed category.

We do need to separate the two constructs and be unremorseful in doing so.
Sports is about racing your genetic peers once you've put in all the work to be the best you that was given to you. It is not a societal construct or social classification meant to be inclusive & protect our feelings. If it was, there wouldn't be a cutoff at 60 riders or have a podium.
  • 2 2
 @Prof Well, that’s a big claim! I hope it well done this time then. @bizutch : It doesn’t hurt to call trangender people by the gender they identify with, I find it strange that your daughter is a female yet the trangender athlete is a person, and you say feelings, when it’s alot more than that. But whatever. Would you be open to regulations that make the playing field level? A scientifical limit to some biological factors that make transgenders success proportional to their percentage in participation.
  • 4 3
 This debate is baffling to me. If you have to take a massive cocktail of drugs (which destroys your long term health) in order to meet the rules to compete, then these rules are seriously flawed.
  • 4 1
 It doesn’t have to be anything more than whatever level of estrogen and t blockers your biology can handle BUT you make an excellent point especially
w how sensitive the rules are about drugs. How can the UCI justify drugging into a class as not altering performance w drugs? Oh yeah they just say follow our rules not logic. Trans people are not the biological sex they choose to gender into and insisting they are is dishonest, and before anyone wants to give a sermon on it, keep in mind you don’t know what my gender is do you? @hamncheez:
  • 6 0
 @Rubberelli: There is this sort of double standard for being concerned with the affairs of others. If you speak up for a marginalized minority (of which you are not a part), you are considered to be heroic, but if there is another marginalized minority involved, then you can be shamed for sticking your nose into business that doesn't concern you.

If a women was being victimized or marginalized in nearly any other context, then it would be shameful to not do something, or say something, for example if a female co-worker was being discriminated against or harassed at work. In this context though, you and others who have raised a similar arguments seem to think that men are supposed to just go "hey, those are women problems...let's mind our own business and get back to having fun, guys!".

A lot of these same commenters have been hearing about how tough it is for women bike racers, with minimal sponsorship opportunities, unequal prize money, a "boys club" environment (although most men I know are very supportive of women riding), etc...And yet now you are complaining about those same men caring and taking interest in things that affect those same women racers, simply because it touches on an even hotter PC button? You can't tell everyone to suddenly stop caring about a marginalized group that in other contexts you would expect them to advocate for, that's just crazytalk and doublespeak.

And before you say, "Well what if the cis-women are all cool with it?", I can tell you the women aren't all cool with it. This article covers Shania Rawson. interactives.stuff.co.nz/2018/03/a-level-playing-field and then most of us saw the FMD racing post that seems to speak for Tahnee Seagrave. There was also another NZ female racer in the Leogang results thread who seemed to have similar sentiments. And that doesn't even mention that after the blowback that I'm sure FMD is suffering right now, most other women will be afraid to speak their minds, for fear of jeopardizing their sponsorships. It could be that the vast majority of the cis-women are cool with it, but it will be very tough to get an honest accounting in this political environment, so they'll essentially be gagged. Please keep in mind, I'm not saying that trans and cis gendered women shouldn't be competing in the same class, but I am saying that acting as if honest discussion and debate among male MTB fans is some sort of "ism" or "phobia" is nothing but nonsense.
  • 1 3
 @Prof: you really believe that the top riders are secretly thinking "damn, she might actually beat me if I crash, so she must have a physical advanyage"?
  • 2 2
 @BeerGuzlinFool: you're talking about the women behind her right? Not the ones 10 - 20 seconds ahead of her, who the UCI actually consults on things?
  • 2 0
 @mtbikeaddict: Thank you for being a word of reason in this reactionary world.
  • 2 3
 @thekaiser: the FMD poster made it clear it was just his opinion, not anyone else on the team, I saw Marine Cabirou supported what he said, but she only lost to Kate because she crashed. She would have smoked her if she hadn't. Kate is simply the first trans athlete in UCI DH good enough to qualify for WC, even though UCI has apparentky let trans athletes compete for a long time (and in 2017 revised their rules of entry). If she was dominating like Rachel does, then maybe UCI can look again at their rules (though there is still Rachel, so...). But I don't see how this is an issue without some dominating athlete to even raise the question.
  • 4 0
 @jeffitup: You and your girlfriend are in agreement with this pioneering trans-women bike racer, in advocating for genderless racing classes: www.cyclingweekly.com/fitness/kristen-worley-canadian-cyclist-fighting-sports-gender-rules-and-supporting-caster-semenya-273796

Having said that, without a whole societal rethink, I'm not sure how much buy-in you will get from the pro women's field. The thing that distinguishes them, is being the fastest women. Period. Not being "Fastest in "Gender neutral field 3" or whatever you want to call it in this alternative system being proposed.

We already have ability ranked classes for amateurs, and while the people racing in those classes get very worked up about a victory, its hard to get friends and family to give a damn, no less fans or sponsors. And if you win too much in a given category, then people start talking about how you are "sandbagging" and should move up to the next class, where you are likely to be mid-pack, and people will resume not-caring about your placing. Such is the nature of the meritocracy of racing.

I could see some potential for doing things with a handicap type system, like golf, where people would have an established handicap based on their past results and would then have that deducted from their time in an event against the clock, like DH, or in head to head racing, they'd get a head start of a commensurate amount. But I have trouble imagining fans getting excited about my mom, dad, or gran, "winning" a DH race, because they started with a x 500% advantage over Minnaar, or whatever, as anything other than a novelty. It certainly hasn't happened with golf.
  • 2 0
 @Milko3D: You seem like a sensible fellow, so I feel it should also be brought to your potential that it isn't crazy or outlandish if people are only concerned about this now, due to the quality of her results.

You wrote "I'm wondering, would we be having this conversation if Kate didn't get good results? Which after all is the ultimate goal.".

That is actually very similar to the USA cycling rules for Testosterone Replacement Therapy (TRT) for older men. Basically, they had tons of older men with doctor's notes saying they need TRT, who were applying for Therapeutic Use Exemptions (TUEs) to allow them to use the Testosterone (which would generally be considered "doping". Ultimately, they decided on 2 different standards...a more relaxed one for amateurs (which would allow these guys to use their TRT and race while being in compliance with the rules), and a more stringent one for pros, which basically forbids TRT regardless of circumstance.

The interesting thing is that even for amateurs, they have a sort of scale they use to measure your performance, and if you start winning on TRT, then they red flag you. In other words, they're cool with you doing what some would call "doping", as long as you continue to be slow. If you start getting fast though, they suddenly pay attention and make things tougher.
  • 3 1
 @Adamrideshisbike: Dude, you're forgetting: The "science is settled"! ;-)

(Sarcasm font) Because we all know that science is never open to debate and further study after a result is returned.
  • 2 1
 @BeerGuzlinFool: You are forgetting that, according to many people commenting here, we should let those women speak for themselves, and not concern ourselves with "women stuff"...despite the incredibly precarious, career risking, sponsor pleasing, position that they are in.
  • 3 0
 @Lokirides: Or, as you point out, there are intersex people, so we can just eliminate gender categories altogether, rather than trying to separate people based on arbitrary measures, or their statements. I listened to an NPR show which had a guest who was "Gender Fluid", and within a given day, they transitioned between genders based on how they felt. How would you accommodate those folks? I am fully in support of that person living their life in whatever way makes them happy, but are you seriously going to have Gwin race in the women's class on a given day, just because his fluid gender identity happened to switch that morning? That isn't to say that there aren't people, like Kate, who are born into the wrong body, but you made the case for a wide spectrum of "in betweeners" and argued for a sort of honor system based on what they said, so I'm posing a sort of litmus test to you to determine if you really think that's viable.
  • 2 0
 @JaToledo: You are correct that there has been a lot of rudeness from certain people here, but there have also been some very good points. A few things for you to consider:

1. Fairness in sport is a myth. At best, we hope for a very loose approximation, but it really isn't.

2. If you trust the UCI (who, incidentally, is subject to the IOC), then you need to dig back into their past misdeeds.

3. You brought up doping, so I will reiterate what I mentioned to another commenter above, that USA Cycling has a rule that allows "doping" in the the form of Testosterone Replacement Therapy for men with "low T" levels. It is permissible, up until the point when you stop sucking. Once you start to get top 3 finishes, then they tighten the restrictions. If you place so much faith in governing bodies, then I suggest you consider their stance on hormone levels and fairness too.
  • 1 0
Hey man! Yeah I saw your comment it’s an interesting one! I have more or less covered each of those subjects in this thread (I’ve written way to much), and I know the UCI doesn’t meet the best of standards, someone pointed out how the IOC made bad calls that the UCI followed. The good news is that they restructured the team investigating and designing rules including a former trangender athlete who suggested a much lower permitted amount of testosterone for females transgender athletes. Apparently it’s a much more appropriate level.

What I’ve really tried is to keep this open minded and respectful more that judge what is currently in place as I simply am not qualified to do so (I study nothing to do with biology). Some people here have said things that are really important like the ones you highlighted!
By having and encouraging good and respectful discussions the sport will grow, and it’s happened for most of this thread Smile
  • 2 0
 @hamncheez: LOL! The real audible kind!
  • 2 0
 @JaToledo: I haven't heard anyone raising concerns about trans-men racing with cis-men as an issue, which you would think, if most of these commenters were genuinely "transphobic", they would.

Similarly, governing bodies (or at least USA cycling), have taken a similar attitude, with no waiting period required for newly transitioned men to compete in the men's category, unlike the waiting period for people going the opposite direction.
  • 1 0
 @Milko3D: That gets back to the myth of fairness in sport, that I keep harping on. Where we decide as a society that advantages up to a given point are fair, but beyond that...not so sure.

That whole argument about Rachel growing up with Gee and Dan ignores the possibility that Tahnee might have been born with genetic advantages over Rachel. And what about Tracy growing up biking with Mick? Its a quagmire, and at some point we all decide "good enough" and get back to the races. Some things we, as a society, have decided are not fair, like doping, although from a certain perspective you could make the argument that taking EPO or Testosterone is simply compensating for one rider's naturally lower levels vs. another genetically gifted rider.
  • 2 1
 @Bruttle: I'm sure Kate is an awesome women and an asset to MTB. Go back and look at the split times for Fort William though, and you will see that her best split was the final motorway section, which required the most pedaling, and was presumably when all competitors were at their most fatigued, which raises a counterargument.
  • 1 1
 @bizutch: Not sure if you meant to type "nudies of people with every kind of combo" or if that was a typo and you actually meant "studies of people with every type of combo". :-) If the former, props to you for saying that openly!

Either way, I see where you are coming from, in terms of it being this morass, where you have a human continuum, and various highly impassioned parties all claiming to have knowledge of the "proper" standards with which to draw dividing lines, when really those lines will inevitably be arbitrary, political, and easily contradicted by other evidence.

Elimination of gender categories seems like a way out of the mess, which would account for both transgender competitors, as well as various intersex points on the spectrum, but then it would basically eliminate all of the headway that women's sports have made in the last 50 years, and would force a host of people with real careers as racers to market themselves to sponsors based on being "influencers" or whatnot, rather than based on race results, which would no longer be realistically achievable.
  • 1 0
 @Prof: Yeah, it is seriously f-d up. While it isn't frequently discussed, most people on some level realize that elite sports are not conducive to health, and this just takes it to a new level, with all sorts of medication regimens just to meet a politically determined, one size fits all, number on a test.
  • 3 0
 @JaToledo: Cheers, my friend. :-)

And on the Testosterone level rules, I hope that people are right, and they truly have found a good universal limit, but my understanding is that XY people and XX people respond differently to Testosterone, and some people within a given chromosome group have different natural levels, and/or will respond more or less to manipulation of those levels. I fear that a one-size-fits-all approach would leave some still having what many would perceive to be an unfair advantage, while compromising the long term health of others, who genuinely need more just to maintain homeostasis. Regardless of the ultimate outcome, open-minded discourse like this is the only way to get to the fairest, nearest approximation of a level playing field that we can achieve.
  • 5 1
 @Rubberelli: No.. all of the women..If any woman athlete speaks out against trans women the backlash could kill their career.
  • 4 1
 @Milko3D: this is the entire issue in a nut shell! Man competes in senior mens category. Average to mediocre results firmly place them in the lower half of the elite men's population. Changes gender (but not sex because that isn't possible with today's science and technology), competes in women's category. Results place them firmly in the very upper end of the elite women's population distribution. Every time this happens, there is a clear advantage for the athlete in question in changing the population they are being evaluated against, regardless of populations being grouped by age, gender, or disability (think para Olympics).

If the athlete remained in the same part of the population distribution of the new class, there would be no issue because there would be no advantage. So no, we wouldn't be talking about it.
  • 1 2
 Another excellent rational observation that implies no bias or ill will. Sadly though culturally these are falling on dismissive ears. Borderline disturbing the mindsets pertaining to many trans issues are quickly becoming staunch hardline ideologies that rival closed minded theologies. Let’s not forget there is a world outside of racing where people have to interact daily with far less rules than a UCI rulebook. Actions such as taken here are not conducive to people getting along w and understanding trans people, rather just more drawing battle lines and polarization. But this is it not the place for that discussion. @spoochypants:
  • 3 1
 @thekaiser: I have definitely thought about this, as it's the logical conclusion of what I propose... and at the end of the day I shrug and say, OK. If Gwin decides to transition to a lady, the he would be she and she'd race with ladies. Because, I really don't think there are actually any people willing to make a gender switch on the basis of sport. It is LAUGHABLE, really, to imagine Kate became Kate so she could podium downhill races. From people I have talked to and things that I've read, the decision to transition is one of the most weighty and consequential "choices" a person makes - and NO ONE makes the switch with the motivation of winning in sports. Usually, it's the opposite: the person realizes that in making the switch, they may actually have to give up the thing they love most (riding bikes fast in competition, playing soccer, or whatever) because they know how unwelcoming the sports world is to trans people. Sports in their life is a factor that makes it HARDER for them to transition. So the idea that Gwin might decide he's a she only on race day, in order to win, is really pretty insulting to people going through one of the most challenging times of their lives.

Gender fluid... now that is really a tough one, and I think that wouldn't really be an issue until we have a far more accepting society, which, judging by this forum, is really a very long way off.
  • 6 1
 @Lokirides: Ok, but say Gwin decides to transition, not because he wants to sand bag in the women's division, but because he actually identifies as a woman. And he suppresses his testosterone levels leading to a steep drop in performance, but still manages to be 10 seconds faster than the elite women. You don't think that's unfair to cis sex women?

Most of society accepts gender fluidity. We just don't think it fits into the binary system of competitive sport.
  • 6 0
 @Lokirides: you mentioned love of sport. Let's be clear...sport is different than competition & income driven competition is next level.
We are specifically addressing competition. Nothing stops any person of any identity from participating in a sport. Competition is separate.
  • 1 1
 @chriskneeland: I take offense to the description Cis..
  • 1 0
 @BeerGuzlinFool: I'm out of the loop. What is "Cis"?
  • 2 0
 @bizutch: Sorry guys, but I can't resist. The talk of trans-athletes dwarfing others, Gwin transitioning, etc... anyone else think of this?
  • 3 0
 @BeerGuzlinFool: We are about to see if your prediction will come true, as Marine Cabirou supported the Instagram post from FMD that said trans athletes should not be in the women's competition. I think no less of her, even though she only lost to Kate because she crashed. She is entitled to her opinion and her opinion certainly counts much more than yours or mine.
  • 1 0
 @jordanaustino: anecdotal evidence doesn't count for much unfortunately
  • 1 0
 @d3ftone: What about people with XXY? (Klinefelter syndrome) No matter how you slice it gender is more complicated than one or another.
  • 2 0
 @jordanaustino: what percentage of the population has that syndrome? Or better, what percentage of trans people have Klinefelter syndrome? There can be exceptions to the rules but making the exceptions the rules is stupid
  • 90 1
 Look at that: riding in jeans with rector style pads, tablet size phone in the pocket and 69 number plate killing it and back to work. Just like a lunch ride. Privateer of the week, not enough mates, get this man a "shaun palmer of the year" gold jacket to ride down andorra wc and he will kick asses, again. Thanks johaness that was so cool!!!
  • 4 0
 @donpinpon29 #longlivethegoldpalmerjackt!
  • 9 0
 Yesss... He's dope. The man is jeans has won the people choice
  • 13 0
 Move over Randy, Johannes is here.
  • 4 0
 @Boardlife69: ...and he's real!!!!!
  • 5 0
 Breaking: Fox unveil denim Flexair racepants - you heard it here first...
  • 3 1
 @Fulgacian: But.. Randy is real? Its literally Marco Osborne...
  • 1 0
 @Calkodawg96: haha yes! Didn't Burton or similar company make 'blue jean' looking snowboard gear for the US Olympic team a few years back? Maybe Fox can buy all that left over material in a warehouse
  • 1 0
 @bman33: Levi makes bike specific jeans.
  • 2 0
 @bman33: a fan was wearing Palmer replica jacket & crown at the podium during the live feed
  • 42 10
 It seems counter-intuitive to have women and men segregated in competition if you are going to allow them to cross-compete. If women want to compete with men then go for it but there should be a "open class" division where both genders can compete against one another. And if trans racers feel its unfair I'd have to question why they are worried about racing against men?
  • 14 3
 What top level women would do that? Tracy's time of 3:42:107 she would not of even qualified her and would have of placed her 20th against the Junior Men and 57th against the Senior Men in the finals.
  • 20 6
 @dhrracer: Presumably one who really wanted a challenge. But it just furthers my point that there is only advantages for men transitioning to female competition.
  • 4 2
 @dhrracer: I think you missed his point.
  • 2 0
 @nug12182: I was responding primarily to the "If women want to compete with men then go for it but there should be a "open class" division where both genders can compete against one another." Basically they do they all race the same course. If we look at individuals like Rachel and Tracy they both would just be privateers that would receive no publicity and would never be able to make a career out of it.
  • 30 4
 For all the bitching about coverage.
Be f*cking happy we get to watch the races for FREE !!!!!

Half the planet can’t even watch supercross racing cause of conflicts in broadcast rights.

I personally happy to be able to wake up and watch the race

Now if I could get the dam racers to stop posting on Instagram before I watch the race ..haha

I love this sport !!!!!
  • 3 2
 Why so submissive? You get it for dollar free but not for free.
  • 24 0
 Tracey Hannah is one HELL of a tough competitor ...never excuses ..just hard charging always...love you baby!!
  • 17 1
 can we just acknowledge that dude is out here in jeans and no sponsors beating people who ride for a living at the highest level of competition in the world
  • 4 0
 Respect to Johannes for sure!
(Last year he was riding in the co-factory team of Mondraker together with Brage Vestavik)
  • 14 0
 6. Any article that involves Kate Weatherly gets clicks. Now imagine Kate riding an EBike with plus sized tires. :o
  • 3 0
 And taking Performance enhancing drugs...
  • 17 3
 @ThePM: Having male muscle density and bone structure is pretty enhancing.
  • 3 4
 @SupraKZ: Imagine if she takes steroids on top of that. She'll actually look like a man... oh wait...
  • 14 1
 Maybe the real issue is the jeans racer having his thunder stolen by the genes racer. Ok bye.
  • 14 0
 9. Not enough races.
  • 1 0
 What would you say is the appropriate number?

When you increase, the "specialness" of each decreases.

Additional races would most likely be in Europe.

More races make it harder & more expensive for privateers and smaller teams.

I ask because I'm not sure what that number should be.
  • 2 0
 @hamncheez: I understand your point.

I am speaking strictly from selfish spectator's point of view, i wouldn't mind 2-3 more races per season, let's say.

More races could mean better chances to race for bigger number of privateers, local guys anyway.

I didn't mean to dig deeper into the case of larger amount of races, we can of course...it's pretty simple, i enjoy them more than just about any other sports event, there aren't that many, give me more....but yeah specialness decreases.
  • 1 0
 @DuelingBanjos: I've watched the more traditional sports my whole life, but man nothing gets the adrenaline going and the heart pumping like world cups!
  • 8 0
 5 things we learned ? The only thing we have learned : don't raise your opinion about transgender athletes. The world shshshs about that subject . And the world is still discriminating women . unfortunately it's not just peace and happiness. The sports community has released guidelines for one sex by creating a different problem for another sex .

And to be clear : transgender athletes can be top 3/ top 10 / top 40 I don't care ! It's not about the position or being transphobic! Everyone out there thinking that it's transphobic ... is transphobic himself ! Identify yourself as what you want . Go out there and compete! Do what you want !

The world is not ready but ..we don't protect transgender athletes and in this case female athletes!
  • 9 0
 Is it just me or are the mods pulling down posts from this article?
  • 1 0
 Check the 'below threshold threads below at the bottom
  • 2 1
 No they already deleted one of mine
  • 18 12
 6. Men can change their gender but not their sex.
  • 23 17
  • 3 0
 i say let everyone race, all at the same time, winner is the first down the hill male, female or other wise! excellent spectator sport
  • 1 0
 I don't think it is wrong to say what we would like to see otherwise how would Red Bull get any feedback. I'm sure they want to create a quality product. Personally, I would have liked to see that first stump with a pole in it and no alternative but to go over it. I can't even wrap my head around riding that.

There are inherent problems with covering the whole track and it isn't lack of cameras. The main challenge is there is more than one competitor on the course at a time but they cover one at a time. So they show the start of each rider delayed and pick them up live partway through their runs. This keeps the overall broadcast close to live and not 4 hours long.

Some things they could do and I am sure have considered.

1) Don't show instant replays. This would be way out of the ordinary for sports coverage. Can you imagine not replaying Pierron's nose-wheelie finish or Gwin's explosive crash at Ft. William? But they could show less replays for uneventful runs.

2) Switch back and forth between the riders who are on course at the same time. Focus on key sections of the course. This is more like mass start races where there are battles for other positions but it would be strange for a time trials race.

3) One rider at a time on course. Lot's of waiting between riders for fans lining the course and either super long races or limit number of finalists. If long race, conditions likely to change over the event.

4) Mix start order and only cover the top half of qualifiers. Would still have more than one on course but you would have order like 80, 40, 79, 39, ... , 42, 2, 41, 1 or even have the top 10 qualifiers go one at a time at the end. Don't show 41 - 80 on the broadcast unless they have an eventful run. Even with this format, longer races like Ft. William would likely still have the issue of missing portions to keep the broadcast time reasonable.
  • 1 0
 Im wondering how long Kate has been racing, and if she had any good results before transitioning? While I think its great that she is pursuing her passion, it is World Cup level racing and its not meant to be easy, in fact it is incredibly hard. There are many regional race series in which one could race that would still be challenging..
I have been following the sport for many years. Many of the men that are racing have been riding /competing since they were kids ( and thats not just the top 20 racers ) Its not just a sport you jump into and expect to podium., it takes many years, and much the same for the womens cat. Respect for all competing.
  • 1 0
 no she was fairly average apparently interactives.stuff.co.nz/2018/03/a-level-playing-field from this article. then all of a sudden 30 seconds up. their argument is about testosterone levels being under a certain amount but i dont think that is the whole story clearly male to female have an advantage especially if they only just transitioned. its a touchy subject for sure. maybe go by what you were born as or how long you have been the new gender like a citizenship things have to be female for 4 years before your licence can change. i understand that would seem offensive or whatever but they have a huge advantage. she says she started taking blockers at 17 so her puberty didnt go through as normal so she isnt the same as a guy, but there at 15, 16, 17 year old smashing top womens times and mens times some top boxers in the world are 17 so you are fully able to compete at a high level by that age. or move all racing to an open class and just have the best of the best at the top thats fair on everyone that way. the only people at a disadvantage are female to male transitions.
  • 4 0
 6. You can ride your bike in jeans.
  • 6 6
 For what it's worth:

Most arguments center around the fact that Kate is now faster than most women - OK, that's a fact and I can see that. Ergo, because she was a man before and now a woman, she has a physiological advantage, which puts the women on the back foot. Agreed?

Ok - Rachel Atherton is a woman (I mean, I'm pretty sure she is) and she SMOKES Kate and everyone else consistenly. This proves two things:

a) women can be much faster than the average elite women
b) Kate is not without competition

I understand the predicament of transgender people and how hard it is to transition and I understand the "purists" who want people of the same biological gender (from a physical standpoint) to compete in their own category.

It doesn't change the fact that one women is much, much faster than most of the elite women - Rachel Atherton. Does that make it unfair? Does that mean she trains harder or everyone else less hard?

It's simply not as easy as everyone makes it out.
  • 1 0
 back in the day there was a female inline skater who won everything because she could do tricks the other women couldn't, double back flips and flat spins and stuff so she got moved to compete with the men and then was only average. im sure she agreed to it though. maybe just compete by skill regardless of gender.
  • 3 1
 That the people who complain the most about not being allowed to express their opinions are the people whose opinions you are most likely to be subjected to
  • 3 3
 Lots of intelligent dialogue here on the biological advantages/disadvantages surrounding trans-athletes. An angle that seems to be missing is the huge discrepancy between support for male vs. female athletes. It's no secret that at every point in athlete development resources($$$$, training opportunity, sponsorship support, etc.) have been funneled into the men's side of sports. Is this changing currently? I don't know, but it's safe to say everyone competing now has been developed in through this male dominated lens. I mean there are only a handful of female elites....are even those on the top steps getting even close to the same kind of support as male counterparts? The point is that this huge discrepancy has created an unidentifiable advantage for male athletes that also should be considered. It's not all physiological. A male/female pair, given similar athletic ability and identical training/support would, IMO, be much closer than the gender gaps that we are seeing now....
  • 1 0
 they dont get the same support etc because they cant put out the same times, they take them from national races where alot of people fund themselves and the men and women are still miles apart there.
  • 2 0
 N+1: Flat pedals are (apparently?) now so uncommon even in WC DH that the commentators felt it noteworthy enough to point out every competitor riding on them.
  • 2 0
 I learned that the Coil shock on a Dh bike isnt dead, many riders changing back to coil!
  • 1 0
 Kate Weatherly was mentioned on belgian national TV station RTBF: www.rtbf.be/auvio/detail_l-histoire-trepidante-de-kate-weatherly?id=2508408
  • 2 0
 9. We don't know how to spell Loegang
  • 3 4
 Oh geez Kate will be able to soon benefit from the privateer award just like from sponsorships because hey if youre good enough to be on the podium then you must deserve it, right? Riiighhttt....
  • 2 1
 with the podium time all so close an all wheel sizes and combo's up there 6. wheel size don't mean shit
  • 2 1
 And after all smaller bikes are better, as Bruni proved or not, probably new trend incoming...
  • 5 7
 What I learnt at Leogang and Fort Bill is that I should avoid PB comments section related to DH.

There is no perfect solution regarding transgender athletes and regulations can never enforce 100% fairness even discounting that particular topics. The rules are what they are right now and it isn't up to fans to decide what they should be.
  • 6 8
 the human race is born with a penis or vagina......period. no such thing as trans anything......good grief. if you want to change what you are, then fight for a different "catagory" to race in......stop F'ning around with mother nature, its not right.
  • 3 1
 "the human race is born with a penis or vagina......period"

Except for those who aren't, but don't let that stop you.
  • 1 0
 the 6th thing were learned about Leogang...is that Minnar can still bring it! no disrespect to the transgender forum.
  • 4 3
 Track updates sucked...poor opinion PB.
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