British Cycling Limits Transgender Women Competing in Female Categories

May 26, 2023 at 5:59
by Ed Spratt  

Following a nine-month review and consultation, British Cycling has announced that it will not allow transgender women to compete in female categories.

The British cycling governing body's updated Transgender and Non-Binary Participation policies from will see any athlete whose sex wasn't assigned female at birth or are a transgender man who is yet to begin hormone therapy having to race in redefined 'Open' categories.

Current Men's racing categories will be replaced by this 'Open' category with a 'Female' category remaining across Elite and grassroots racing for riders with a birth sex of female. Previously for transgender women to compete in Women's racing they had to reduce their testosterone levels below 5 nmol/L for at least a year.

British Cycling's new rules are not yet in place as it tries to figure out how to implement the policies, but it expects them to be in place by the end of 2023.

British Cycling's New Eligibility Criteria:

bigquotesUnder our new policy we will implement an ‘Open’ category alongside a ‘Female’ category in British Cycling competitive events. This means that the current men’s category will be consolidated into the ‘Open’ category. Transgender women, transgender men, non-binary people and those whose sex was assigned male at birth will be eligible to compete in the ‘Open’ category. The ‘Female’ category will remain in place for those whose sex was assigned female at birth and transgender men who are yet to begin hormone therapy. Those whose sex was assigned female at birth are also able to compete in the ‘Open’ category if they so wish. Once they have commenced hormone therapy, transgender men will be eligible to compete in the ‘Open’ category only, and should ensure that they continue to adhere to the requirements of UK Anti-Doping. We define competitive activity as any race, match, event or ‘competition’ (in BMX Freestyle), or a programme thereof, which involves any element of timing, ranking, points or prize awards. British Cycling

British Cycling's latest policy updates come after it initially suspended its previous policy on transgender participation in April last year. In its press release British Cycling says: "The nine-month policy review was led by an internal working group, made up of a broad range of representatives from across British Cycling, Scottish Cycling and Welsh Cycling. During these nine months, the working group undertook a targeted consultation consisting of 14 focus groups and a number of one-to-one interviews (including dedicated sessions for female Race Licence holders and trans and non-binary members)."

The policy review has led to the creation of two new polices with the 'Policy for Competitive Activity' covering all British Cycling-sanctioned competitive event, the 'Policy for Non-Competitive Activity' covers British Cycling activities outside of racing.

CEO of British Cycling, Jon Dutton has said that the cycling governing body believes the new policies are "product of a robust nine-month review process" although he acknowledges that the new rules will "have a very real-world impact for our community both now and in the future." Dutton also suggests that nothing is set in stone as British Cycling will "continue to assess our policy annually and more frequently as the medical science develops, and will continue to invite those impacted to be an integral part of those conversations."

British Cycling CEO Jon Dutton's Statement:

bigquotesOur new policies are the product of a robust nine-month review process which we know will have a very real-world impact for our community both now and in the future. We understand that this will be particularly difficult for many of our trans and non-binary riders, and our commitment to them today is twofold.

First, we will continue to assess our policy annually and more frequently as the medical science develops, and will continue to invite those impacted to be an integral part of those conversations. Second, we will also continue to ensure that our non-competitive activities provide a positive and welcoming environment, where everyone can feel like they belong and are respected in our community, and take action to eradicate discrimination from the sport.

I am confident that we have developed policies that both safeguard the fairness of cyclesport competition, whilst ensuring all riders have opportunities to participate.

We have always been very clear that this is a challenge far greater than one sport. We remain committed to listening to our communities and working with our fellow sporting bodies to monitor changes in the scientific and policy landscape, to ensure that sport is inclusive for all. We have been open and transparent with the UCI on our decision and will work collaboratively with them to ensure a seamless implementation over the coming months.

I’d finally like to thank everyone who has supported this process over the past 12 months to ensure that we reached our decision in the right way. This includes the British Cycling, Scottish Cycling and Welsh Cycling staff in our policy working group, and those who participated in our consultation.
British Cycling

While British Cycling has changed its policies on transgender and non-binary participation, the UCI has not updated its rule, and transgender women can still compete in Women's categories at UCI-sanctioned events. Currently, the UCI is performing its own review of its policies, but it has not suspended existing rules while it performs this task.

In British Cycling's own FAQs on its policy update, it does state that while British Cycling events will follow the new rules any UCI-sanctioned events across England, Scotland and Wales will still follow UCI rules. This means that any transgender woman who has UCI eligibility will still be permitted to compete in 'Female' categories in UCI International Events.

British Cycling on its Difference in Policy to the UCI:

bigquotesOur policy has been developed through a robust and thorough review process, which led us to the conclusion first that differences between males and females make separate sex competitions appropriate and then that the fairness and effectiveness of competition can only be ensured if transgender women compete in an ‘Open’ category rather than the ‘‘Female’ category.

The UCI recommends that national federations develop their own policy for domestic events, and does not mandate that national federations must replicate its own policy on transgender inclusion.

We have shared updates on our policy review and intended policy direction with the UCI, and will continue to liaise with colleagues at our international federation as we proceed towards our implementation date.
British Cycling

Emily Bridges, a high-profile UK transgender cyclist who was on track to become part of the British women's team has responded to these policy updates by British Cycling, calling the governing body a "failed organisation".

The British rider was stopped last year from competing in her first Elite Women's race by the UCI despite meeting the then-current regulations. Emily Bridges goes on in her statement to say that she agrees that "there needs to be a nuanced policy discussion and continue to conduct research, but this hasn't happened.

"Research isn't being viewed critically, or any discussion about the relevance of the data to specific sports."

Emily Bridges' Full Statement:

In its medical review conducted by British Cycling’s Chief Medical Officer, Dr Nigel Jones, the governing body says it came to the conclusion that even with the suppression of testosterone, transgender women who transition post-puberty retain a performance advantage. The FAQs released by British Cycling state: "Dr Jones was satisfied that the evidence sufficiently indicated that the average female is at a physical performance disadvantage compared to the average male, and that therefore competitive cycling disciplines are “gender affected activities” within the meaning of the Equality Act."

British Cycling's interpretation of the issue conflicts with other studies on transgender women in elite sports that have argued that transgender women do not hold a biological advantage once they meet the strict testosterone limits set to take part in top-level sporting events.

Comment Moderation
As these conversations unfold, please remember that there are other people at the end of your words. We expect the comments here to be respectful and constructive. Specifically, don’t violate Pinkbike's terms of use, which state that any hate speech or personal attacks will not be tolerated. Pinkbike, like other platforms and media companies, considers misgendering and ‘deadnaming’ (using someone’s former name) to be slurs and personal attacks. Don't do it.

The aim is not to censor conversations or ideas, but just like other slurs, misgendering and deadnaming are not welcome on our platform. Violations of Pinkbike’s terms of use may result in suspensions or bans. Harassment, bullying, or incitements to violence will result in lifetime bans.

Author Info:
edspratt avatar

Member since Mar 16, 2017
2,722 articles

  • 847 50
 That's a win for women's sports.
  • 58 780
flag GotchaJimmy (May 26, 2023 at 12:48) (Below Threshold)
 No. It's a win for transphobic men and women who want cycling to be exclusionary.
  • 75 9
 @GotchaJimmy: when do I get my prize for winning?
  • 19 322
flag GotchaJimmy (May 26, 2023 at 12:58) (Below Threshold)
 @DetroitCity: when you stop being a loser
  • 87 4
 @GotchaJimmy: Are you going to lurk on this page for like 2 days and reply to every comment that makes you angry?
  • 67 6
 @GotchaJimmy: If you are a woman who lost a scholarship or prize money to a trans athlete?
  • 7 143
flag GotchaJimmy (May 26, 2023 at 13:31) (Below Threshold)
 @WestC0astWanderer: probably. I'm pissed
  • 198 12
 Now it's time for the UCI to follow suit. Women have suffered from this charade long enough. The open category provides ALL athletes with a fair, competitive category to participate in sport - there is no legitimate objection to it that I've ever heard.
  • 282 3
 @GotchaJimmy: If people are doing this to be transphobic then ask yourself why nobody is campaigning for women who identify as men to be excluded from male categories. They don’t, because there is no unfair advantage. Your assertion, therefore, is entirely erroneous.
  • 41 9
 @GotchaJimmy: get bent....
  • 82 5
 @GotchaJimmy: Go be pissed somewhere else, this is Pinkbike, not Twitter. You might be able find more sympathy there.
  • 195 5
 There's definitely a marketing opportunity here for Transition...
  • 77 6
 This seems thoughtful and well-reasoned. I hope this logic spreads to other sports’ governing bodies. It’s overdue.
  • 59 4
 @GotchaJimmy: Yep, Men who helped raised women and dont want them losing to men. Get with science. Its settled.
  • 20 260
flag GotchaJimmy (May 26, 2023 at 16:05) (Below Threshold)
 @FoesKnows: Trans women are women. Not men.
  • 43 6
 @GotchaJimmy: Got a $50 and a British Cycling Medal that says they are not.
  • 114 4
 @GotchaJimmy: They can live their lives that way, most will accept that and call them 'she' etc etc. . However, they are NOT physical women. They didn't go through puberty as a woman, never had (no had the capacity to have) ovaries or a uterus, nor do they/did they have to suffer mensural cycles or menopause. Complain all you want. Your statement is 100% incorrect.
  • 94 2
 @GotchaJimmy: Are you saying that anyone who agrees with this ruling is trans phobic? I think an individual, who is not transphobic, can feel that a person that went through puberty as a male has an unfair advantage competing against women even if their current testosterone levels are very low.
Just saying the two things are not synonymous.
  • 5 0
 @shredddr: I agree.
  • 31 5
 @NERyder: Didn't you read Emily's response? That opinion means you're a literal Nazi advocating genocide.
  • 23 2
 @mattmach7: don’t be a jerk. There’s nothing transphobic about wanting integrity in female sport.

Take your rude zebra jokes and get lost.
  • 28 3
 @GotchaJimmy: Science says they are not.
  • 8 2
 @Jprestidge: @gotchajimmy just got got.

$10 he/she won’t respond to your logic. Too logicky.
  • 128 7
 @GotchaJimmy: You probably can't see it right now but this is entirely positive for the Trans community. One of the biggest mistakes in the movement that caused the most backlash was trying to put biological men into women's sports. This is resulted in the largest amount of hate towards the Trans community because it is simply wrong and discriminatory towards female athlete's at all levels. The arrogance, stupidity and pigheadedness that Trans activists such as yourself have continued to display on this issue needs to be addressed if you want more progress and acceptance from the general public on the matter, you need to know when to hold em and know when to fold em.
  • 53 2
 @GotchaJimmy: Furthermore, by continuing to push this stance you're pushing trans athletes out of the sport you think you're including them in. You're creating a hostile environment in the sports they love where they will never be accepted by the general community of the sport. You're also putting athletes who want to transition in a situation where they either transition and get ostracized from their sporting community or they don't transition at all. I can't expect you to read this and be able to see past "the sporting community is the biggot here" but please try.
  • 24 1
 Twenty-ish years late but this is a good step. I hope the idea spreads globally, in cycling and in other sports.
  • 3 0
 @bikes-arent-real: well said
  • 15 3
 @GotchaJimmy: what is a woman?
  • 4 31
flag pancakeflatted (May 27, 2023 at 6:46) (Below Threshold)
 @FoesKnows: what’s the science you mention?
  • 7 89
flag pancakeflatted (May 27, 2023 at 6:49) (Below Threshold)
 @GotchaJimmy: TIL pinkbike is a cesspit. I’m with you @GotchaJimmy
  • 31 1
 @GotchaJimmy: common sense will prevail, no matter how often you repeat this nonsense.
  • 36 3
 @GotchaJimmy: show me a trans woman who birthed a child. In the history of all time.
I'll wait while you look.
  • 22 3
 @GotchaJimmy: hahahaha, you obviously failed 6th grade science.
  • 24 16
 @GotchaJimmy: typical response from the "tolerant " left... What's your pronoun ? Penis = man, vagina = women, is it really that hard for you to understand?
  • 8 6
 @GotchaJimmy: go back to your tik to videos
  • 4 6
 @GotchaJimmy: go back to your tik tok videos
  • 4 6
 @GotchaJimmy: just have a look see. look at the gametes. It's called science
  • 3 53
flag GotchaJimmy (May 27, 2023 at 9:34) (Below Threshold)
 @bikes-arent-real: dumb reply, thanks for your time
  • 4 36
flag GotchaJimmy (May 27, 2023 at 9:37) (Below Threshold)
 @pancakeflatted: I'm stunned. Thanks for saying so.
  • 18 2
 This is probably the best way to handle this issue as well. Rename Men's into "Open" so no one feels misidentified. Like every choice in mtb there's always a plus and a minus. Protecting female riders here seems like the appropriate choice. Everyone can participate now, being a woman shouldn't carry a disadvantage in your own category.
  • 3 7
flag jbob27 (May 27, 2023 at 10:56) (Below Threshold)
 @nateb: heard you were trans-ing and going for the Canadian enduro champs this year. Nate-alie
  • 4 3
 @GotchaJimmy: science would beg the differ.
  • 1 2
 @GotchaJimmy: lost in the sauce
  • 3 2
 @jbob27: trans-bc next year maybe. You?
  • 13 26
flag rzicc (May 27, 2023 at 16:38) (Below Threshold)
 @GotchaJimmy: STFU pussy!
  • 22 7
 @nateb: I hope that common sense comes to American cycling because they’re virtue signaling and allowing emotion to rule over science. The Trans athletes need a racing category but the Woke class wants to ram this down everyone’s throat. If you don’t accept it you’re a transphobic or !!!!!!
  • 12 6
 @rivercitycycles: that'll be the only thing they're ramming down any throats once they all chop their dicks off.
  • 3 0
 @GotchaJimmy: nope. Not chicks.
  • 16 1
 @GotchaJimmy: no it's about science and biology, and making it a fair and level playing field for all, not an exceptionally small minority.
  • 12 0
 @gally-nh: her response was utter nonesense. She really has lost the plot if she genuinely believes what she wrote
  • 2 11
flag mbikes1 (May 28, 2023 at 14:49) (Below Threshold)
 @bikes-arent-real: It's actually disgraceful of you to go blaming the victims of your behavior, for that behavior,
  • 1 0
 @GotchaJimmy: personal attack?
  • 1 0
 @gally-nh: what genocidee? the michal knowles thing?
  • 5 2
 @GotchaJimmy: can trans women have babies? Gotcha! Women have babies. Trans=no babies.
  • 4 1
 @JustinMD: hes a raging lib no point in arguing with him
  • 3 1
 @JustinMD: that's a bad argument
Legitimate women can be infertile. A better definition for woman is someone who is of the nature to have children
  • 245 32
 need a specific transgender class, as having biological men who identify as women competing against biological women is entirely unfair to women. Interestingly, we have scant (zero?) examples of biological women who identify as men competing and winning in men's's very slanted in one gender direction.
  • 67 5
 Agree 100%. Create an exclusive trans only category and let the best competitors sort it out. Regardless of anyone's opinion, the clock doesn't lie.
  • 92 4
 Having one’s own class would seem like the pinnacle of acceptance and inclusion.
  • 34 2
 Not enough people, and besides, only the male to female athletes are of concern.
  • 33 0
 @TheR: Fair point. So the open class might be a good compromise then?
  • 22 9
 I agree with the points made here, which means this comment is going to be "moderated".
  • 37 5
 I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. There is now an "open" division in which resolves this issue: transgender women, non binary and cis men will compete in this division. The female division is limited to women assigned female at birth and transgender men who have yet to begin hormone therapy.

I think the challenge of a transgender classes is they would be an extremely limited field.
  • 89 56
 @Rkrum: Don't use the term "Cis" its unscientific and derogatory.
  • 4 0
 @TwoNGlenn: normally being 'in a class of your own' is a good thing. But sometimes not, I guess...
  • 17 14
 @TwoNGlenn: ah yes, because historically "separate but equal" has always worked out well for everyone...
  • 42 6
 this only works one way though, as FtM trans athletes will never be able to compete with the MtF athletes.

that said, has anyone noticed that nearly all trans athletes are MtF? wonder why that is? shouldn't it match the general distribution of trans people? oh does.,ratio%20of%20%E2%88%BC2%3A1.

So I guess we have to ask now, why is sex dysphoria twice as prevalent in men as it is women, or at least, why are men twice as likely to act on it?
  • 96 9
 Yup. And I love how Emily is upset and attacking the organization using ad hominem arguments while ignoring this convenient slant.
"I don't like this outcome that no longer massively favors me."

The South Park transgender athlete episode covered this mentality perfectly
  • 13 98
flag GotchaJimmy (May 26, 2023 at 12:18) (Below Threshold)
 @hamncheez: Derogatory lmfao. I'll go get your pacifier
  • 35 8
 @GotchaJimmy: I believe we should always strive to be kind to others.
  • 29 1
 @daceto817: then why have any classes at all? Let’s group men, women, trans, toddlers, and rodeo clowns together in one inclusive class, by your logic.
  • 6 88
flag GotchaJimmy (May 26, 2023 at 12:21) (Below Threshold)
 @hamncheez: I f*ckin don't
  • 47 3
 @GotchaJimmy: We can see that, you don't need to say it.
  • 23 33
flag TwoNGlenn (May 26, 2023 at 12:23) (Below Threshold)
 @Mtbdialed: maybe the general feminization of society and culture as a whole has something to do with it. Just guessing.
  • 2 0
 @Mtbdialed: rest of that paragraph indicates FtM is catching up and at least one sentence states is 1:1.
I dunno, not something I follow.
  • 12 19
flag scary1 (May 26, 2023 at 12:36) (Below Threshold)
 @hamncheez: exactly. Use normal.
  • 23 8
 @hamncheez: The way Outside pushes content on Blake Hansen, I image it would be easy to get moderated here...

I have no issue with anyone expressing themselves as they choose...but not at the expense of others. In this case biological women. It is a massive advantage. All you need to do is have an idea of the doping protocols...
  • 9 0
 @TwoNGlenn: Like having men and women separated in the first place? Just run everyone together. Run what ya brung.
  • 2 4
 @hamncheez: says who?
  • 22 48
flag soup4myfamily (May 26, 2023 at 13:01) (Below Threshold)
 @hamncheez: the term CIS is in fact scientific, and literally comes from the science of chemistry in reference to atoms or groups that lie on the same face of a molecule.
In chemistry, isomers are molecules or polyatomic ions with identical molecular formula – that is, same number of atoms of each element – but distinct arrangements of atoms in space. Isomerism is existence or possibility of isomers. Isomers do not necessarily share similar chemical or physical properties.
  • 35 27
 @hamncheez: what the heck... not mad at you but how is cis derogatory? The etymology has nothing to do with discrimination: cis and trans are just Latin prefixes with cis being the opposite of trans. The first modern English usage of cis was a deliberate attempt to NOT marginalize transgendered people.

I have honestly never heard anyone claim this was derogatory.

What is the politically correct word in your opinion?
  • 72 25
 @Rkrum: because your are labelling someone that doesn't want to be labelled. I'm male and a man. I am not cis anything so don't call me that.
  • 33 32
 @mtb-scotland: It's not a label it's a descriptor, like male or man. The existence of trans entails the existence of cis, like the guy explained. Just like if you're not dead, you're alive. So if you're not cis, you're trans.
  • 9 1
 Having an "Open" category is about inclusion and as fair as you can get. A third category will be pointless due to lack of participation and opens the doors for endless division of categories every time a group feels hard done by e.g. trans men will complain that they are forced to compete with trans women who transitioned in their 30s!
  • 43 39
 @BenPea:To describe me you would use male or man. Anything else is incorrect, impolite and not how you describe me. I am not cis. do not misgender me thank you very much. Do you not see the hypocrisy in your post. The existence of trans does not mean cis exists either. we are not f*cking carbon atoms. male or man is how you describe me don't use anything else thank you very much.
  • 29 1
 @BenPea: but the point is that we already have two acceptable categories male and trans-male. I only ever hear people using the term cis-male when they are making derogatory comments so it is morphing into a slur for a sexist-consiged-at-birth-male.
  • 32 46
flag BenPea (May 26, 2023 at 14:43) (Below Threshold)
 @karatechris: Same with "woke". That's their problem, not the dictionary's.

@mtb-scotland: You identify as your birth sex, so you're cis, sis. The dictionary says so. To say cis doesn't exist is to deny the existence of trans. And cis is not a gender. I didn't call you a woman. Not sure about the atoms though.
  • 60 19
 @BenPea: no I'm male/man. stop calling me cis. there doesn't need to be any prefix to male or man.
  • 13 5
 @Mtbdialed: In sport it is, in general life its young women leading the charge to nihilism and perpetual unhappiness, foisted by agenda and activist led medical and social media support.
  • 15 3
 @mtb-scotland: They are trying to take your self defined pronouns away. Sure the Commissioner of Human Rights will step in any moment now.
  • 1 0
 @TwoNGlenn: what do you mean exactly?
  • 8 15
flag soup4myfamily (May 26, 2023 at 15:22) (Below Threshold)
 I love that cold hard facts get downvoted.
  • 3 32
flag soup4myfamily (May 26, 2023 at 15:24) (Below Threshold)
 @mtb-scotland: cis-bro.
  • 9 4
 @mtb-scotland: That's awful, sorry you have to deal with that
  • 5 3
 @soup4myfamily: Well then maybe they aren't cold hard after all????
  • 16 3
 @BenPea: i am a homosapian but it would be f*ckn wierd it you called me that.

quit while you are ahead.
  • 11 0
 @Rkrum: I was wondering the same thing. I certainly don't want to be derogatory to anyone but it's hard to keep up in the age of outrage.
  • 68 10
 @BenPea: @BenPea: Ben, love reading your input here over the years.

Here though, while I understand your sentiment about the scientific roots of the word cisgender, its use always has a context, which lends it its meaning. and which oftentimes is removed from its literal dictionary definition.

.The issue for me personally Ben (I also have issues with being referred to as cis-male which I will explain here), is that I am no fan of binary positions; I blame my mother, whose view of the world has always been split into the blackest of blacks and the whitest of whites with nothing in between and whose ability to explain her responses to difficult questions rarely gets beyond "It's just wrong, init".

That aside, life is a wonderful maelstrom; it rages in torrents yet equally elevates in moments of serendipitous wonder.

What life does not do (for the majority of us who are not bi-polar) is wildly oscillate between those two positions exclusively; it takes in an infinite number of positions between the two, life is not binary.

However, the use of the word cis as a prefix, appears to me at least, to be removed from its dictionary definition in many (I haven't done the research to be able to say any more than "many") cases, and is being used as a way to entrench the binary; to dismiss the opinions/ideas and thoughts of people who do not exist in the blackest of blacks or the whitest of whites.

Most of us are grey; we exist in the grey. And the grey is a great place to be.

From the grey we get an understanding that ours is not the only way of looking at the world: it is a place of confusion as a result.

And when, in the contexts in which I am aware of the prefix "cis" being used around me, it attempts in many cases to dismiss the opinions of others as being irrelevant to the debate, it makes the exchange of ideas impossible.

It has become impossible to have any kind of thought provoking conversation with my mother because she is unable to see the nuances in the maelstrom. I do not wish that to extend any more than it has done in wider society.

Many do not use the prefix cis in its dictionary sense Ben, and I want to be able to continue to have thought provoking discussions with the world without being labelled as someone who is incapable of seeing the nuances.

As a result, I have to say I disagree with your rejection of people who do not wish to be labelled as cis in all contexts... in a scientific paper, sure, but not in other contexts where it serves as little more than a belittling rejection. It is being used as a binary label by some, and for that reason, I am just "David" thanks.
  • 6 0
 @soup4myfamily: nice Organic Chemistry
  • 9 2
 @JapanDave: well said sir.
  • 8 2
 @GotchaJimmy: you can dish it out but can’t take it (or maybe you do). you of all should believe in two way streets.
  • 17 1
 @soup4myfamily: I sell special crystals that vibrate at life-enhancing quantum frequencies. "Vibrate", "quantum" and "frequencies" are terms used in physics, therefore my claim is scientific.
  • 13 23
flag BenPea (May 27, 2023 at 0:58) (Below Threshold)
 @JapanDave: It's been a long ride on PB ain't it?

I'm still a bit baffled by how triggering this word seems to be. Is it to do with feeling like just a category among others rather than in the central unimpeachable mass of normal? Is it a fear of change? Ultimately it just means not trans. Maybe that's just my brain. I don't feel like the victim of micro-aggression if I'm described as cis.
  • 20 4
 @BenPea: in the UK cis is a derogatory term. Used as an insult, usually by trans activists. Like the word woke.
  • 1 0
 @FaahkEet: lets say it catches up in the general populace. I would wager it will not catch up in athletics......for obvious reasons.
  • 11 2
 @soup4myfamily: ok, so the term CIS has it's place, just not to refer to humans. got it.
  • 17 12
 @FoesKnows: the fun bit about pronouns is that the pronouns I use to describe YOU are MINE, and no one gets to tell me which ones I can and cannot use! vice versa obviously.

If a man in a dress gets angry I call him, him, then that's his issue, not mine. I will always use the language that represents reality, to the best of my ability. You can be as delusional as you want, but you can't make me join you on that road.
  • 12 4
 @Mtbdialed: I don't think a man in a dress would get annoyed if you referred to them as he. A woman with a penis probably would though
  • 4 3
 @TwoNGlenn: don't forget the @gotchajimmy he/she/it wants to be included w the females
  • 5 27
flag spaced (May 27, 2023 at 9:24) (Below Threshold)
 Calling them "biological men" is making an inflamatory statement for no reason. Also there are examples of trans men who compete in sports. It's just the right wing outrage machine didnt sell it to you.

When will people learn that the logic of "I haven't heard of thing X therefore it doesn't exist" is dumb af. You could have at least google "trans male athletes" and for example gotten this guy:
  • 3 17
flag spaced (May 27, 2023 at 9:26) (Below Threshold)
 @hamncheez: It's not. It got weaponized by political right wingers but it was used as a very clear distinction. It it was any other people also would be mad
  • 17 16
 @Mtbdialed: It's painfully obvious why this is happening. Life as a women is easier on 90% of measurable levels. These "men" are weak and want whats easier. It's that simple.

The number of opportunities that have been erased in the last 20years for women is actually staggering when you consider the low levels of participation of women in the competitive arena.

Nobody wants to say it, so I will.

This is a mental health crisis among men and its affecting women sports and is being enabled by governments and sporting associations and industry. Enough is enough.
  • 9 7
 I disagree. This is a step in the right direction. Though it would have been more fair to have men, women and open class that all can compete in. No doubt snowflakes with soft noses would have been offended by a third category because it isn't "inclusive enough" Too bad. Go cry about it. At least a notable organization has the "balls" to take this step. its been 20 years of this charade and enough is enough.

If anyone brings up suicide because of this decision it will only support my stance that much of this issue is ground in mental health issues. PROVE ME WRONG
  • 10 23
flag spaced (May 27, 2023 at 11:13) (Below Threshold)
 @a-r-c: ah yes going for complicated, painful and expensive hormone therapy, being villified by the media is "easy". It's easy to be part of a group that commits suicide at far greater numbers? Jesus mate your take is so bad it's hard to invent a worse one

Also why do transphobic people think trans men dont exist?
  • 19 2
 @BenPea: to add onto what others have said about the "cis" controversy lol, I've grown to dislike it as well and would prefer it's not used in reference to myself. I'll call someone by female or male pronouns if they want and I expect the curtesy extended to me as well. I didn't mind it when I first saw it, seemed quirky but innocent. But these days, 99% of the time someone is seriously using that word it seems to be in a derogatory fashion. Usually belittling men, mostly white men. It feels more like a slur than a descriptor anyway since it's kind of pointless, it's not like people would be confused without the existence of "cis".
  • 23 2
 @DylanH93: "But these days, 99% of the time someone is seriously using that word it seems to be in a derogatory fashion. Usually belittling men, mostly white men. It feels more like a slur than a descriptor anyway since it's kind of pointless"


We don't want to be referred to as a "cis man" any more than a trans person want's to be called a "tranny".
  • 5 1
 @nickfranko: JP Sears sums it up pretty well too...
  • 13 14
 @DylanH93: I don't know man, as a straight white male, I'm finding it hard to feel oppressed by the idea of being called cisgender. Maybe I'm too woke.
  • 12 2
 @The-Spirit-of-Jazz: the ownership of a penis defines you a man, not a woman.
  • 7 12
flag Rkrum (May 27, 2023 at 13:54) (Below Threshold)
 @BenPea: Glad someone said it.

I find it somewhat ironic that the term "queer", originally a derogatory term, has been re-possessed by many and has become acceptable to most. Meanwhile cis, a term that was originally intended to be as neutral and non-derogatory as possible, is now apparently considered a slur (and not even by the class it was intended to be sensitive towards).

What a weird world we live in.
  • 2 2
 @hamncheez: not any more in the times we live in bro.
  • 5 1
 @The-Spirit-of-Jazz: careful; I've heard 'bro' used as a derogatory term for male before...
  • 5 2
 @Tambo: between cis-bros, its fine to call each other bro
  • 14 3
 @The-Spirit-of-Jazz: women can't have penises, in the same way a man can't have a vagina. sorry mate.
  • 18 3
 @spaced: being Pro-woman and pro-women's sports is not Transphobic.

however, being pro-men-in-women's-sports, IS mysogonistic!
  • 17 4
 @BenPea: woke or weak?

I would agree with either really. Letting the language be slowly twisted, never pushing back because it's "just a little thing, doesn't matter enough!", is how you end up in the situation where you have to hear Justin Trudeau say "2SLLGBTQIWTFBBQ+++" with a straight face, and phrases like "Her penis".

it's funny because since you are a frog, you would think you know the old fable about a frog in a pot of water on the stove. Big Grin
  • 19 1
 @BenPea: to be clear, I'm definitely not saying I feel oppressed lol. I live in a western country, we're the opposite of oppressed here and I think it's a bit ridiculous for anyone to feel that way. Likewise, you disagreeing with me right now doesn't make me oppressed. Same thing with saying "only women should compete in women's sports" doesn't make biological males oppressed. We all need to tone the rhetoric back just a bit, were on the same side here with relatively minor disagreements. My only point was I didn't want to be called "cis" and that's fine. Some women don't like to be called 'ma'am" so I simply don't call them ma'am. This has got nothing to do with oppression. We throw the word "oppression" around for literally everything these days, it's just silly.
  • 9 1
 @DylanH93: I concur.

There are a myriad of minor disagreements in the centre ground; none of which are worthy of most of the mud slinging that generally goes around.

@BenPea Yep, it continues to be an epic ride! It's been a long ride on PB ain't it?
If you are baffled by how triggering the word seems to be, I am envious. Genuinely. And congratulate you on your choice of peers!

I say very little without significant thought going into it, and I suppose that's why I am no fan of how "cis" is being used by those residing in the fundamental (as a way to reject wholeheartedly the opinions of those who raise issues, rather than a description of biological sex and gender alignment), as I am looking for that mental effort to be recognized; not necessarily agreed with, just recognized.

It's very similar to how marriages work IMO; people will disagree, sometimes vehemently; I believe those that last and prosper will be inhabited by people who can at least listen to their partner and show they understand how and why they feel as they do.

Anyways, got to get out on the bike. Enjoy yourselves you two.
  • 19 4
 @hamncheez: bro the Uber woke like @GotchaJimmy don’t believe in fair discussion, open minded opinions, or being kind. They just shove their shit down your throat; it’s their way or nothing else. They’re just as bad as the far right.
  • 16 5
 @Clifflane3: it's classic horeshoe theory. Gender/identity idealogues and NeoNazis have far more in common than they do in difference.
  • 4 11
flag spaced (May 28, 2023 at 9:32) (Below Threshold)
 @Mtbdialed: and those phrases are bad because ? I won't even argue the exageration but does the change in language somehow hurt us a society?

It's funny we live in peak inequality times, massive nature degradation and you go "the biggest problem of our times is the prime minister of a country I don't live in uses an abbreviation that triggers my sensitive feelings"
  • 5 14
flag spaced (May 28, 2023 at 9:35) (Below Threshold)
 @Rkrum: It's not a slur though.

The definition of Slur is

"derogatory term is a word or grammatical form expressing a negative or a disrespectful connotation, a low opinion, or a lack of respect toward someone or something. It is also used to express criticism, hostility, or disregard."

Cis is not used to disrespect anyone but to simply be able to properly describe something. People claim it's a slur because of the idiotic fight between woke and conservatives so some people assume literally any term used by woke people is negative. Which is dumb.
  • 2 11
flag spaced (May 28, 2023 at 9:35) (Below Threshold)
 @Mtbdialed: why do you care about this so much?
  • 4 11
flag spaced (May 28, 2023 at 9:40) (Below Threshold)
 @Mtbdialed: can you tell me how what things they have in common? I'd love to know. Did a trans activist claim a certain group of people is instrinsicly worse and should be met with violence? Is this a significant movement by trans activists? Since I do know a few trans activists and while many of them are pretty angry that doesn't really qualify them to be nazis any more than it qualifies any other politically active group outraged about their current treatment.

Since last time I checked Nazis were putting LGBT people in camps... Horshoe theory has been debunked a bilion of times and it's more misunderstood pop psychology used to push peoples personal agenda. Political leanings can't be described by neat drawings. People use it as badly as they misquote the dunning kruger effect.
  • 10 0
 @JapanDave: It's a mess. Humans are a mess. Good luck everyone.
  • 3 2
 @Mtbdialed: Nailed it there bro. That's called common sense versus irrationality
  • 1 1
 @The-Spirit-of-Jazz: Well unless there thinking of waking around naked they better have some patience with the rest of society........till we all have x-ray vision anyway.....
  • 23 1
 @spaced: you thinking we "live in peak inequality times" says just about everything I need to know about your level of ignorance and Pollyannaism.

You have never lived in anything but oppulent, grotesquely abundant and peaceful times, that someone calling out absurdity is what constitutes oppression to you!
  • 16 1
 @spaced: because I love logic, truth and women. I will defend all three, and will not be shamed or browbeat into using the language of insanity.

hope that answers your question.
  • 13 3
 @Mtbdialed: easy time create weak men. We’re in for some rough sledding.
  • 5 1
 @JapanDave: This is one of more thoughtful and insightful comments I’ve read on this forum. Thank you Japan Dave.
  • 4 14
flag lev3000 (May 28, 2023 at 22:51) (Below Threshold)
 @TwoNGlenn: go back to your InCel forum mate
  • 3 13
flag FuzzyL (May 29, 2023 at 1:39) (Below Threshold)
 What are „biological“ men and „biological“ women? That is exactly the point, lines are thin and often blurred, as we are talking elite endurance sports here. Those competing at the front are all genetically selected to do so, medically enhanced, and at the very limit for every value measured. Just give up male and female classes and make it best athlete.
  • 13 2
 @FuzzyL: Basic genetics bro......."In humans, each cell normally contains 23 pairs of chromosomes, for a total of 46. Twenty-two of these pairs, called autosomes, look the same in both males and females. The 23rd pair, the sex chromosomes, differ between males and females. Females have two copies of the X chromosome, while males have one X and one Y chromosome".
  • 2 15
flag FuzzyL (May 29, 2023 at 3:00) (Below Threshold)
 @darkstar66: No, it‘s not „basic genetics“. For example, many women competing in sports at the top level have testosterone levels that would rather be considered „male“ in the general population.

But to stick with your „simple“ genetics, let’s start with the easiest deviation, what happens if those two X chromosomes are present, but also a Y?
  • 22 2
 @FuzzyL: "there is a thin line and often blurred"

No there isn't

Uterus, Vagina, Memory glands, Ovaries, Estrogene = Woman
Penis, Testicles, Prostate, Testosterone = Man
  • 5 15
flag FuzzyL (May 29, 2023 at 3:02) (Below Threshold)
 @bikes-arent-real: Great, all you guys mastered first grade biology and now are experts.
  • 8 3
 @FuzzyL: next lesson is spelling...
  • 19 2
 @FuzzyL: You think you're being funny but it is literally first grade biology shit.
  • 4 0
 @bikes-arent-real: true, women remember EVERYTHING
  • 3 4
 @FuzzyL: and no woman will ever compete again. I suspect you understood this before you typed that, so I have to conclude you hate women.
  • 10 1
 @FuzzyL: it isn't Testosterone. or Estrogen. It is the ratio of the two. the average male has more estrogen in their system than an average woman! you read that correctly. The difference is in the fact that men just have a higher ratio of T to E, and women have higher E to T. Men have much higher amount of total T and E.
  • 3 1
 @FuzzyL: it isn't Testosterone. or Estrogen. It is the ratio of the two. the average male has more estrogen in their system than an average woman! you read that correctly. The difference is in the fact that men just have a higher ratio of T to E, and women have higher E to T. Men have much higher amount of total T and E.
  • 10 2
 @BenPea: except how to parallel park....
  • 16 2
 @FuzzyL: I'll make it really simple for you: Vali Holl wouldn't qualify for a men's final. Amaury Pierron would win a women's final by a minute. Hope that helps.
  • 7 3
 @FuzzyL: Nope stick to your question bro......the answer IS basic genetics. I know your finding it hard not being that dick that just won't stop till someone tells you your right or your just amazing because of your opinion. But this time just give it up......
  • 11 2
 @darkstar66: I feel ya. I find it frustrating when people say "it's a complicated issue." It's really not. Sport is divided by sex not gender.
  • 16 1
 @Adamrideshisbike: In all of human history, it only became a complicated issue in the last 10 minutes. Up until then, a 4-year-old could figure this stuff out. The thing I don’t quite know is if they’re just being disingenuous when they ask what a woman is, or if they’ve sincerely come to believe this stuff.

There is no doping in the world that gives one athlete a bigger edge over another than one being male and the other female. A dude can take all the hormone blockers in the world, and he has that much of a head start over a female at a comparable level in the sport. His performance might drop compared to his former ability and that of other men, but it’s still enough to make him the best woman by far. Conversely, an elite woman athlete could never take enough testosterone to ever catch up to an elite male. To deny this is to deny reality.
  • 8 0
 @Adamrideshisbike: Exactly. Categories in sport are there to exclude anyone who doesn't fit, rather than include as many as possible - that's what keeps each category as fair as possible. Except the open category, of course. Of course I feel bad for anyone who's upset by that, but nobody can change reality.
  • 202 21
 Good, and how it always should have been. Bummed for all the women up to this date that have been robbed.
  • 40 2
 Exactly! It took them nine months to figure that out?
  • 23 3
 @mungers: nine months to come to common sense
  • 30 1
 @mungers: If one was a conspiracist, a meta thinker or just a massive troll, you'd think they took 9 months on purpose to make a subliminal point.
  • 19 1
 Re-issue their medals and rightful winnings.
  • 2 0
 How many times has that happened?
  • 5 0
 @boozed: gives you a hint of scope, but it's incomplete - the founder can't even keep up with the pace of new submissions, ESPECIALLY in cycling.
  • 55 2
 Locally we just had a regional track and field meet where a boy competed against the girls in 1600 meters race. He got second place (probably sandbagging). And here’s the worst part... earlier this year he competed as a boy in boys cross country. He has done literally nothing to transition to a girl other than say “I feel like a girl today.” State law says he’s allowed to do this.

Top three racers move to the state championship meet, which means the fourth place girl, a senior who has been busting her butt for 4 years, gets her hopes and dreams crushed.

The trans community claims to just want to be accepted. But what they’re really saying is that they want special treatment. They’ve overplayed their hand, and people are rightfully starting to push back. I hope more governing bodies put rules in place to protect women’s sports.
  • 3 5
 They haven't been robbed, they have their own classification.
  • 8 11
 I just want to be annoying here and mention the numbers here are much smaller than you think they are. Very few trans people compete. Mostly because trans people already face a lot of hate and going into sports is a great way to get more hate. So we should kinda try to be civil here.
  • 4 2
 @spaced: @spaced: We are being Open.
  • 2 0
 @mungers: nine months for the genetic male to have the baby.

  • 142 10
 Comparing trans-gender athletes racing in their own category in the aim of fairer competition to a genocide is a bit dramatic, you've gotta think.
  • 64 2
 seriously. do they even know what genocide is
  • 81 1
 It’s completely f*cking ridiculous, how one person has managed to become centre of a story that affects all female participants is a sad indictment of the trans debate in sport.

Interestingly on a call radio earlier today two transitioned women called to say they find it ridiculous that they would be allowed to compete against biological women, so a vocal minority is in danger of opening up an already vulnerable group of people to additional scrutiny by thinking only of their own personal situation.

A decision well made by British cycling in my book.
  • 23 3
 @chickenmoe: apparently not, but it's fairly standard now for any minority group who have had to fight hard for recognition, justice and acceptance to use explosive and poorly chosen rhetoric in order to convey their impassioned feelings, to continue fighting their corner and to champion their cause.

Perhaps partially because they know that if they don't then it won't grab the attention of the public in the same way, and it's really only through keeping their plight in the public conscience that they maintain any forward momentum in what they obviously truly believe is a fight for their lives.

I think it's a bit of a shame actually because it is absolutely possible to convey passion, strength of conviction and intense sorrow at perceived social injustice while framed within good reason and powerful, sensible, thought provoking language.
  • 11 76
flag daceto817 (May 26, 2023 at 12:06) (Below Threshold)
 I don't think it's meant as a direct comparison; the passing of anti-trans legislation or, in this case, enacting of rules meant to prohibit trans persons from sports seems pretty in line with encouraging anti-trans rhetoric amongst the general public. Just take a look at all the people here in the comments espousing the "trans women aren't real women" garbage.

And before you say this isn't banning them from sports, let's think about how well "separate but equal" has gone in the past, instead of pretending a class just for trans athletes would be effective.
  • 38 1
 @daceto817: As you think this ruling is ‘anti trans’ - what is your view on how transitioned women should participate in sport?

Should biological and transitioned women compete against each other?

Trans women are not biological women and for the purpose of sport that matters.
  • 27 5
 If words are violence, it justifies using violence against words.
  • 20 0
 @daceto817: no one is prohibited from sport.
  • 14 13
 I don't want to give the bigots of the world any more power to strip the trans community of their rights, and for that I feel like this is a touchy subject. I feel for anyone who has transitioned, looking for acceptance. I personally think the ruling is fair to the vast majority, not sure there is a way to make racing fair for literally everyone
  • 5 1
 @Adamrideshisbike: Frickin love that quote. Yours or someone else's?
  • 5 1
 peak narcissism
  • 7 2
 @chickenmoe: Couldn't agree more. Not like any of them got a pink triangle sown on their uniform and then tossed into an oven.
  • 18 3
 @daceto817: the public, as a rule, are usually led to mindless anger by parties weaponising that discussion deliberately for political/financial gain. If that filter/amplifier was removed, the news from British Cycling wouldn't be nearly as inflammatory.
I see this purely as a scientifically motivated measure from the federation. The fire comes from the nutters who have nothing but culture war to offer the masses. The problem is the discourse of bad-faith actors, not the decisions taken to mitigate issues of competitiveness in women's sport. We've been here so many times...
  • 20 0
 @ThatOneGuyInTheComments: no idea but I didn't think of that idea myself. You see this very clearly in the way activists label people Nazis. Most people are pretty okay with violence against Nazis. Therefore labelling your opponent a Nazi may well lead to violence. See the protests agsinst Posey Parker in NZ recently where a man punched an elderly woman he disagreed with. Rhetoric has conséquences.
  • 10 1
 @chickenmoe: Spot on. Genocide on a sliver of society who are doing it to themselves based on evidence and reproductive health is the irony lost on this ideological cause, then demanding this claim is taken seriously.
  • 7 1
 @FoesKnows: Gendercide?
  • 2 0
 @BenPea: Thats the ideology, yes. Who and what is driving it is the question?
  • 1 1
 @FoesKnows: idiology?
  • 14 5
 @BenPea: Ideology. That this societal and largely institutional movement is largely by and much praying on young females, delicate time and their changing bodies and is abnormally impacting young women and their families in life altering impacts enabled by modern progressive agents, resources and counselling and medical infrastructure driven of neo-liberal values that places the rights of the child and State above the rights of parents, and any dissention to those views is deplatformed or hidden.
  • 5 2
 @justanotherusername: Kaitlyn Jenner is also totally against it.
  • 19 0
 @daceto817: Calling reasonable laws/rules regarding trans people is NOT "anti-trans". That's gas lighting bullshit. If it wasn't then they wouldn't have to use BS euphemisms like, "gender affirming care".
  • 3 0
 @Adamrideshisbike: I’m stealing that
  • 8 0
 @bunjiman82: Appreciate your diplomatic time, and recognition and acceptance aren’t rights.

And what is the “injustice” they’ve “suffered”? Not being accepted and recognized?
  • 34 3
 @daceto817: Trans women are not real women and you need to stop pushing that narrative if you ever want true progress. You're only ever going to get backlash, and ironically you're only creating a dissonance in trans people by trying to make them see themselves as real women when they're not. Trans people need to accept themselves as they are which is as a Trans person and not a CIS person, you're trying to say that a Trans woman is a CIS woman. Stop being an ideological idiot.
  • 4 1
 Yeah it’s a type of thinking that leads to mental illness.
  • 26 4
 @daceto817: I will say it....

trans women aren't women, they are men with sex dysphoria.
  • 1 6
flag Herb1234 (May 27, 2023 at 19:02) (Below Threshold)
 @Adamrideshisbike: as someone who knows a bit more about that story with the elderly woman being hit, let’s just say both parties were at fault.
  • 8 0
 @Herb1234: I'm intrigued. Please tell me how the elderly woman deserved a fist to the face from a man!
  • 4 0
 @Herb1234: this is the assault for anyone that cares to see a young man beat a woman.
  • 1 1
 @Adamrideshisbike: do you feel the person being assaulted there is in any way at fault? honest question, I would like to hear your thoughts.
  • 2 1
 @skiandmtbdirtbag: you might be underestimating the ability of modern Narcisists. Big Grin
  • 3 0
 @Mtbdialed: maybe you mistook me. I see a crime in that video.
  • 2 14
flag Herb1234 (May 27, 2023 at 21:19) (Below Threshold)
Well way to judge a situation on a 15 second video. That’s shows the woman in question approaching the man and entering his personal space, the man did not walk up to her and start hitting . The video does not also show what had happened before nor does it cover off that she had traveled some distance to support someone who was delivering speeches something boarding on hate speech and that there was a very high chance of violence happening from both sides. Is the man in the right no. but nether is the woman. She did not have to put herself in that position. She had the opportunity to walk away or just not approach the man but she did and there for shares some of the blame
  • 10 0
 @Herb1234: what a load of sh1t.
  • 11 0
 @Herb1234: Any there you have it folks. The words are violence crowd justifies a young man attacking an old woman for coming to an event titled "Let women speak." You are the fascist.
  • 7 0
 @Herb1234: wtf. you cannot be a serious person with that outlandish take.

you just justified unprovoked violence because......words?

please never vote or reproduce. humanity cannot afford it....
  • 5 0
 @Mtbdialed: I love how he/she/they gave a perfect example of what I described above. And by love, I mean I am horrified. But make no mistake, there are others that think this way. Sadly, our tolerance is all too often tolerant of this intolerance.
  • 4 7
 They could have phrased it better but you have to try to understand where the message comes from. Since It seems the comment section is so much against trans people they don't get the intention here. Trans people face suicide at much higher rates than literally any other group in society. So they were probably aluding to the fact that bad political actors really do want to erase trans people, maybe not directly but from the political discourse and hope they dissapear.
  • 7 0
 @spaced: more justification of violence against women.
  • 8 3
 @spaced: There's a lot of muddling up going on. We need to keep emotion out of it. Many people are viscerally disgusted with the idea of transitioning or even identifying as another gender or no gender at all. Just like it was/is with homosexulity, but turbocharged. I suspect many are using legitimate concerns about trans women in sports as a cloak for their nausea about the concept as a whole. In fact, that's a definite. The self-destruction of so many people with gender disphoria over the years doesn't seem to be a concern for a hell of a lot of people. They just want these people to stay underground and STFU. It's more comfortable that way. Not saying the debate doesn't sometimes go overboard on both sides, but that also stems from the different types of fear the groups at each extreme feel (the grounds for these fears are also quite different).

Long story short, the arguments as they relate to sports shouldn't be conflated with all the conspiracy rhetoric, which is something that targets every minority group on the planet and is largely BS.
  • 3 3
 @Adamrideshisbike: can you quote the part of my comment that justifies violence towards women?

I mean we talk in a few threads and why can't you try to talk to me? I know 2023 is politically charged but why won't you try to have a discussion with me instead of making up what I've said? I did not insult you, I did not attack you. I simply asked you to be nicer and your response is to lie and be aggressive.
  • 7 9
 @BenPea: I 100% agree. I think it's also turbocharged by the fact some people automatically hate everything that is perceived as woke so this means the topic is automatically doomed (hell my stepfather stopped being vegetarian after 20 years since "leftists are vegetarians).

What is worse there are coments below by actual female athletes and the most active comenters here literally mensplain to them that them being less concerned with trans athletes is somehow invalid.

PS. Fun fact - I know a guy who used to be a WADA inspector and he used to run a female cycling team. His approach to the topic? "This isn't an issue unless you cherry pick cases".
  • 6 1
 @spaced: Not wasting any time on a true believer.
  • 13 0
 @spaced: suicide is self inflicted, and we would be well off to address the mental health issues that both drive people to be trans as well as commit suicide. but that isn't the point here. NO ONE IS "AGAINST TRANS PEOPLE", well at least not most, if not a huge majority of folks. What rational people ARE against is violence. Violence should NEVER be used against ideas or words. Not even Abhorrent ones. Punching Nazis is not ok. repeat, no matter what any ever says(so long as it stays words), you are dead f*cking wrong and a fascist, if you think violence to counter those words is justified.
  • 6 10
flag BenPea (May 28, 2023 at 13:11) (Below Threshold)
 @Mtbdialed: The mental health issues that drive people to be trans? The same issues addressed by Christian conversion therapy for gays? This says a lot. Why do you think a trans person would kill themselves do you think?
@spaced: the WADA guy you mention nailed it, although in sport I still see rare cases as being noteworthy, because we're measuring physical performance. I mean he nailed it in relation to wider society, because it is not a plague worthy of pulling the emergency alarm for, it's just people who would once have been scared of being themselves actually being themselves. Just because it makes some people sick, that doesn't mean it has to be front and centre of discussions about society. That's just a result of political parties not knowing how to make their countries better and resorting to stoking base fears. Oldest trick in the populist playbook. "Don't look at usnscrewing up your nation, look at that boy in a dress! Someone made him do it! They're coming for your kids! This is really really important! The libs are making it happen! Etc."
  • 16 1
 @BenPea: yes, Sex Dysphoria is a recognized mental health condition. glad I could bring that to light for you!
  • 3 8
flag BenPea (May 28, 2023 at 14:49) (Below Threshold)
 @Mtbdialed: that implies it can always be dismissed as a treatable condition. I've a feeling it's a hell of a lot more complicated than that. Does the term "mental health" basically cover everything? Like if you hate broccoli, that's a mental health issue? If you repeatedly engage in high risk activities like downhill mountain biking, that's a mental health issue?
  • 3 5
 @Mtbdialed: according to the NHS website, treatment often involves doing what it takes to enable a person to transition. Sounds like transitioning can be the cure or as much as a cure as there can be. But sometimes the urge wears off with age. So this is far from a black and white issue.
  • 7 0
 @BenPea: no one said it's always treatable. just that it exists, and is what is going on when a person thinks they are a different sex than they are.

btw, I love broccoli and downhill mountain biking, so by my math, that cancels out.
  • 11 2
 @BenPea: sorry, you cannot reference a laughably failed collectivist state healthcare organization, and expect to be taken seriously.

I lived in the UK. The NHS is worse than useless, they are actively detrimental to the health of the people they are charged with the care of.
  • 1 1
 @Mtbdialed: is that you ‘conoat’?

Did you leave England and return to the US of A?
  • 4 0
 @Herb1234: Lets not! Mate, there is something not right with NZ after Adhern and to say both parties were in the wrong here just shows how far the intolerance and false globalist view has contaminated a former great place.
  • 119 8
  • 12 0
 That made me LoL. Well done
  • 12 0
 Ronnie Mac 69 approves this message, after 69 PBR's.
  • 13 1
 @ATXZJ: Mr. Carl learns his lessons. Sometimes you spit the truth and sometimes the truth spits on you, yadfinks? Let that sink in.

  • 4 5
 Relax Carl, you don’t have to yell. The exclamation point is a bit over the top. But I understand your frustration.
  • 4 0
 @carlwheezer69: I just spent some time looking for the comment but slowed down reading the gold, such as "Asking for a friend, and it turns out I am that friend."
  • 3 0
 @iamamodel: I simply do it for the fans, baby!!!! Well, that plus the fat stacks Pinkbike is paying me to keep an eye on things around here. It's like they say, better 45 ducks in a row than 15 trillion ducks on the loose.
  • 92 4
 The fact that this is even a discussion or needed is completely bonkers!
  • 20 0
 And that it took a “nine month review and consultation”.
  • 43 1
 @rglasser: they had to watch a women go through the child birthing process i guess. To confirm. For science.
  • 3 6
 @rglasser: no it's not as similar rules in the past have backfired and worked very badly including banning women from performing for having too high natural test levels. Also it's good to word it in a nice way not to marginalize a group that's persecuted
  • 79 8
 Rational decision for anyone with a brain. Next up, UCI.
  • 70 7
 Your turn for common sense UCI.
  • 65 4
  • 3 0
  • 50 3
 I don't think that person who wrote in that Insta post needs the media to cherry pick the text to make them look hysterical, they made themselves look that way. Can't even write one rational paragraph let alone exclude hyperbolic statements like genocide and eradication while calling people conspiracy theorist's makes them sound like a conspiracy theorist. Calling anyone who might have the hint of disagreement Nazi's is not how you fix the solution and only worsens whatever cause you support. They should consider this a win because then people can say they only where successful athletes because they competed against biological women. Stop complaining and whining on social media and come up with a solution that works for everyone if you don't like the changes. They expect everyone else to be open minded yet are extremely closeminded themselves.
  • 11 0
 As a conspiracy theorist, I support your remarks!
  • 6 0
 @mybaben: Who's your favorite conspiracy theorist. Personally I like to listen to David Icke after getting so high I could fumigate possums out of the back room of a 7-11 just from my presence alone. Honestly don't really know much about him other than I laugh ass off anytime he opens his mouth.
  • 5 0
 @WestC0astWanderer: LOL! Nice. On the serious side, I don't really have one. I'm just very Left wing, cynical, and know very well the extreme levels of corruption in my national government...
  • 13 1
 @mybaben: At this point the biggest uniting factor between the Right and the Left should be not trusting the government. Don't really care for sharing my political views on here but the one thing I will say is I hate the government and I think if more people had mistrust for the government(Liberal, Conservative or whatever) things would improve. Saying my side good, your side bad is probably the smoothest brain thought one could come up with and people should learn that at the end of the day basically all politicians will find ways to make your life miserable.
  • 2 0
 I didn't read the insta post at first. Just went back and read it all, that's something else. I hope this individual can find peace and happiness.
  • 4 0
 @WestC0astWanderer: Agree completely. Our gov here is 100% corrupt, I don't care what party a politician is in, even the ones who are Independent.
Voting strategy for the US and Canada: NEVER VOTE FOR AN INCUMBENT! They don't serve you!
  • 46 2
 Its a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario. I just look at XC mtb, as I know it best of all disciplines. The women always race a lap less than the men as to finish in a similar time. I am absolutely not putting any negative on the women, I love watching their races, they are fantastically competitive and from an audience perspective their races are just as good as the mens. But the competitive structure is changed based on the needs of the athletes. They are admitting that the two sides are different and so it's hard to see why that would acknowledgement would exist in one set of rules and not exist in another set of rules within the same sport.
  • 44 4
 I should acknowledge I have no idea what is like to live as a trans person and that I am sure there is some unintentional ignorance on my part because of that. I hope that everyone can happy riding their bike regardless of this outcome.
  • 7 0
 Same in women's pro tennis.
  • 47 2
 bout to be a dumpster fire in these comments.
  • 25 1
 WTF did you just call me?!
  • 25 26
 No because they will delete comments that don't tow the line
  • 35 0
 @hamncheez: It's TOE. As in sticking your foot right at the edge of the line but not stepping across it.
  • 15 1
 @pisgahgnar: holy crap you're right. I thought it meant as in towing, or pulling, the line.
  • 6 4
 @hamncheez: way to discredit everything you've ever typed
  • 24 1
 @BenPea: I didn't realize I had credit to anything I've ever typed
  • 4 2
 @hamncheez: Noice.
  • 15 0
 @pisgahgnar: bro, trying to teach people how to use phrases properly... is bigotry and amounts to GENOCIDE
  • 1 1
 @BenPea: lol, I don’t think that he will get what a brilliant joke you just made .
  • 2 0
 @soup4myfamily: I don't get it either!
  • 41 2
 The main issue as I see it is that the legal testosterone levels for men that have transitioned to women that want to compete in elite cycling has been dropping consistently for the last 4 years. Prior to March 1 2020 the legal level was 10 nanomoles/liter for at least 12 months. After that time it was changed to 5 nanomoles/liter of testosterone for 12 months. As of July 1, 2022 the level was dropped to 2.5 nanomoles/liter for 24 months prior to competing. The science is not settled as to what would be fair for elite racers competing in the women's category. Currently it is basically a chemistry experiment where nobody knows what levels are fair. If you were born a woman how could you have any faith that with the current rules that you are able to compete with a trans gender woman? Imagine if you lost a race to a trans woman then 4 months later the UCI said that the new fair level of testosterone is 1 nanomoles/liter and that it had to be at that level for 48 months for the competition to be fair? It would be a bit like trying to compete clean against a bunch of dopers. I support the right for anyone to identify as the want to but I don't think there is any right to compete in an athletic competition if you are a trans woman.
  • 23 10
 This is honestly the most intelligent, objective and factual respite I have seen this thread. If anyone here hasnt seen Icarus I highly suggest you watch it if you want to talk about body chemistry and fairness in cycling.
The IOC ( I know that isn’t UCI) stance on this was if an athlete wants to compete as their gender, then the would have to remove themselves from competition for at least two years , and have the lab work throughout that time frame showing that their estrogen and testosterone levels were maintained within the average range of a non pregnant cis females of the same age range. That’s regular lab each month starting out and moving to every three months for two years.
99.9% of transwomen that want to compete in sport have no desire to dominate, and they certainly didn’t transition just to do so. That line of thinking is So unhinged. No one would subject themselves to the violence and struggle of living through what you have to go through, just with the medical community let alone society and on top of that, men spinning up falsehoods about them within the world of sport. No one.
I will chime in on one thing, Lia Thomas is an outlier and if you want to use her as an example to apply to all trans athletes you are just an opportunist. How she chose to go about re entering competition set trans rights back almost as much as Catlin Jenner. She should have been competing where there was actually competition and taken more time away from the sport and been further into her new life before jumping back into a line up.
On that note, let’s not forget how Racist it was in demanding that Caster Semenya , a cis woman, lower here natural testosterone levels in-order to compete.
  • 9 2
 @soup4myfamily: Stats matter mate. Not the biological analysis offered here as some premise to neutralit, no risk, nothing to see here Trans washing.

Is there an abnormal % of winners in female competitions who are Trans, as a weighted basis of participants?

Exponentially and absolutely, without pail here is. A significant abnormality and outcome as stat's parlance says.

So off to Open for you, so we can have level and fair playing ground for material elite and other competitors who have and remain women. Ta.
  • 19 3
 Male racers maintain significant advantages that have nothing to do with testosterone readings - bigger bones, larger musculature, more upper-body strength, greater pumping capacity, no menstrual periods, and more. Those advantages don't go away because the UCI changes the nanomole/liter cutoff. I too agree that women need a protected division.
  • 6 2
 Kaitlyn Jenner says she can still drive a golf ball 250 yards! And she isn't exactly 31 years old.... This is def just a guessing game and it's going to be very hard to arrive at a real conclusion on "when a man is weak enough now to compete as a woman".
  • 13 0
 @soup4myfamily: Respectfully, since I know you are a fellow appreciator of facts and science, I think it is important to note that, while racism could have certainly played a role in the treatment of Caster Semenya, and Semenya was assigned female at birth, and identifies as a woman, it is not a complete picture to describe her as a "cis woman". Semenya has a "Y" chromosone, she has a 5α-Reductase 2 deficiency (which is a rare genetic mutation that only affects genetic males), and Semenya is generally recognized to be Intersex, so her actual genetic sex seems to be non-conforming to a binary, rather rather than her gender identity. That is a whole other can of worms although it has similar implications to the issues presented here with gender identities and trying to ensure fair sport.

Dutee Chand is another runner similarly affected by limits on naturally occurring testosterone for female runners, due to her hyperandrogenism. I think that she has implied that she identifies as part of the Intersex spectrum, but to my knowledge they have not disclosed any specifics as to the causes of her hyperandrogenism, and hyperandrogenism could be caused by things not typically considered to be intersex.
  • 18 1
 The issue with measuring testosterone levels today, or even over the last 6 months or 6 years, is that it doesn’t take into account that a trans woman is a man and underwent male muscle and skeletal development during puberty.

There is no way to make a sport consistently fair for trans women competing against women. British Cycling’s open category is a simple yet elegant solution. One open category where anyone can compete and one category where only women can compete.
  • 8 9
 @soup4myfamily: "Lia Thomas is an outlier and if you want to use her as an example to apply to all trans athletes you are just an opportunist. How she chose to go about re entering competition set trans rights back almost as much as Catlin Jenner."

No, Lia followed your ideology and did everything within the rules that you advocated for and she got publicly humiliated for doing so and you want to turn around and throw her under the bus for making you look bad. She's a victim of your ideology and you're a piece of shit for not standing by her. Trans right activists did the same thing to Jenner.
  • 2 10
flag spaced (May 27, 2023 at 10:07) (Below Threshold)
 @eckljkr: Yeah though you pass into a different problem that international sports had before right wingers made trans people a big boogeyman.

Identifying who is a non doped woman for sports has always created political issues in sports. Bone density standards also eliminated biological women.
  • 13 1
 @spaced: by right wingers you mean female athletes? Females athletes want to compete against each others. That's what is being discussed.
  • 5 11
flag spaced (May 27, 2023 at 10:19) (Below Threshold)
 @Adamrideshisbike: Not what I said. I fully understand female athletes want to regulate this issue. What I meant is right wing media made trans people in general a huge boogeyman not just in sport.

I'm all for us having a civilized discussion about rules and regulations in sport but people here claim "cis " is a derogatory term of suggest as if somehow trans people transition only to have an unfair advantage (LOL)
  • 14 0
 @spaced: like the right wingers that don't think children can consent to puberty blockers? You are the lne that has found a bogeyman.
  • 10 0
 @spaced: or the right wingers that don't think men should be put in female prisons or rape crisis centres? Is that right wing though?
  • 7 0
 @boopiejones: I think this is the real question that needs to be answered. Men clearly have some form of physical advantage over women in athletics. When is this physical change happening? Puberty, fetal development? I don't think testosterone alone give men an advantage.
  • 4 7
 @Adamrideshisbike: aaah yes using the straw man fallacy against me claiming I've said things i didnt say

Can you tell me in how many countries a child, without parental consent can ask for puberty blockers? Do you know how hard it is to get puberty blockers or hormone treatment?

Since despite your agressive AF talk I'm open to talking to you but you do seem to be fairly misinformed here thinking a 13 year old can go "oh I want the pills" and they get it right away, no parental consent, 1 doctor visit like they're asking for a vitamin c shot.

As for your jail comment - so using your logic are you suggesting someone that is "passing" as a female be put into male prison? So if someone looks totally as a woman be put into a male prison? Since you seem to be concerned about rape only when it affects certain people not all people.

PS. You do realize same sex rape happens right? Rape crisis centers and prisons should protect people. Period. Stop trying to politicize it. Talk to a trans person who underwent some form of transitioning. Seriously I say this with no malice. This will enlighten you. You will no longer have a theory people transition to rape people or to compete in sports.

I mean sure lets have a talk about the rules around trans athletes but why does this have to turn into a discussion of who can hate trans people the most?
  • 1 3
 @FoesKnows: ah yes spot on for claiming I've said something i didnt say.
  • 8 0
 @spaced: men in women's prisons is the law of the land in Canada.

I never said a thing about puberty blockers without parental consent, but I do know that Norway, Finland, Sweden, the UK, and many states no longer give puberty blockers to children after having done systematic reviews and found that evidence shows that puberty blockers are harmful.

I am aware that rape is sadly a problem that happens in gay and straight communities. But I know that the problem largely lies with men doing the raping. And for that reason, you should think long and hard about allowing men into female spaces. Here is a recent example of a man raping a woman at a rape centre. A place that should have been a space place for her to heal.
  • 32 1
 The thing that's lost on people is professional sport is classified based on sex and not gender. You can be any gender you want, it's just how you identify yourself, but that does not give you a automatic pass to play in any classification of professional sport you choose.
  • 38 5
 This, and in the history of humanity no person has ever changed their biological sex.
  • 9 2
 It's weird that we don't see these arguments about age, which is an equally objectively verifiable attribute.
  • 1 4
 @justanotherusername: ...Yet. The govt thanks you for your generous donations via tax dollars funnelled to research institutes to correct this human trend. The fusion of AI and CRISPR technology may be victorious in this endeavor.
  • 9 2
 @ACree:except we do account for age in competition. There are separate age classes for racing as it wouldn't be fair to expect juniors to have the same power and strength as people in their 20s, or masters for those who are no longer have the same aerobic capacity as a younger rider? Seems reasonable to group athletes into categories where they if they train hard enough they can be competitive.
  • 10 0
 @grahamsinc: Totally agree. I think the idea behind it though is that nobody is claiming to be able to change their age because "that's how they identify". We would all accurately label that claim as ludicrous. But somehow changing sex is totally believable?

There are so many criteria by which to categorize and differentiate ability, etc. and the fact that gender (or sex, as some people seem to think is possible) has become the criteria of choice for this vocal minority is beyond me for one reason: the sex binary is one of the oldest biological traits/systems, dating WAY back before humans (we're talking hundreds of millions, possibly over a billion years). It's the height of hubris and ego to think that we're so special that we get to choose our sex, just as it would be ludicrous to identify as a race, height or species that you're not. A claim of trans-racialism actually has merit though, because race IS a completely ambiguous, socially-constructed and malleable thing. Sex is not. But I 100% understand why any trans-racial claims are seen as maliciously suspect due to global (and particularly Western) racial history.
  • 13 0
 Sex is biological, gender is linguistic.
  • 4 3
 Yeah but now should wrestling have trans women wrestling cis men?

Not saying I say I have any solutions. I just see that trans people in sport are a more complicated issue than many people here claim
  • 4 0
 @grahamsinc: Exactly. Yet we don't see 25 year olds arguing that they identify as U-23, or 44 year olds trying to race the 45+ class. Yet the time elapsed from the moment you are born is as much a fact as the biological sex you are born as.
  • 32 0
 Transgender issues aside, I’ve always thought Mens Elite should just be an open class. Any age, any gender, just run whatcha brung and the fastest human takes the top spot
  • 5 0
 There's no reason why it shouldn't be that way (except for a few narrow exceptions for safety - boxing, for example, and probably still maintaining adult divisions in any contact sports). Lindsey Vonn has publicly stated that she'd love to race against the men. She could easily do so fairly without putting any athletes at a competitive disadvantage. That's why the open division is the best solution, beyond its benefits for preserving a female-only division. It offers robust competition (which you wouldn't get with a sparsely attended "third category,"), it's easy to administer (just a name change!), and it offers women a chance to compete against men if, and this is key, IF they want to.
  • 6 0
 To some degree, this has already been done in a lower profile way, at various events over the years. I have been to bike races that had a very small number of female racers, and a single very talented and competitive woman who really wanted to up her game. In those cases, I've seen the woman enter the men's race, as it would provide the most competitive experience for her, to help her better prepare for an upcoming higher level/national level competition where she would be facing the best of the best of female racers from other regions. I always thought it was pretty cool, but have periodically wondered how much it was a generally accepted practice, and how much it was subject to the discretion of the race organizers/local official.
  • 35 4
 About time we has some common sense. That reply from Emily Bridges is hilarious. They can still race in the open or male category.
  • 13 1
 But she was BANNED!
  • 1 1
 @Murder-One: banned from what?
  • 38 3
 @mtb-scotland: Banned from having unfair advantages
  • 10 0
 @mtb-scotland: I'm not sure exactly but it says banned and that's a very evocative word.
  • 13 0
 @Murder-One: Nothing to stop Emily from racing at the highest level.
  • 25 0
 ‘War Is Peace. Freedom Is Slavery. Ignorance Is Strength.’

‘Power is not a means; it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship.’
  • 4 0
 Wise words, captain!
  • 6 0
 Slow is smooth and smooth is fast. Do what I’m thinking not what I’m saying. You picking up what I’m putting down.
  • 27 0
 Well, here we go. I, of course, expect a very measured and rational conversation on the topic here.
  • 27 3
 This is a change in policy, not a new policy. British Cycling had policy in place to deal with this situation. They faced tremendous pressure from a more populated group within the female category to begin to review and change their policy. This is the result of that review. Unfortunately there are some winners and losers, as there always will be with policy decisions. Emily was an athlete that was around and racing at the time of the initial decision to review this policy. She advocated against this change. More people advocated for it. It's perfectly reasonable to see why she feels attacked and threatened. Nobody can take away that transgender people are subject of discrimination, however policy in sport, an activity which is an elective, to allow fairness is different to social and governance structures within the core principles of human rights and the right to live. I believe that sport will progress and not regress. There will be a time that bio markers such as testosterone will be measured in elite sport and categories will be based upon this. Much like weight classes in fighting sports. Until such time that those standards can be investigated and developed we will have differences in policy across all sports, sporting bodies and countries. This is not a ban, it's a reclassification.
  • 27 4
 Win for women!
  • 21 4
 WARNING: The following comment is from an actual transgender woman!

Actually, no warning is needed, as I am just going to finally say a little about this. Nothing crazy and am not going to get into any arguing with people here. I have more than enough problems and stress going on now days, without getting more.

To start, I am a senior trans woman. I won't go into my life story, but I will say that from the time I was about 5 or 6, I knew something was different about me. Not much info back in the 60's. Grew up thinking I was wrong. Hid in the closet for most of my life, afraid of losing family and friends. Sports saved me. Stayed away from drugs, alcohol etc. and instead rock climbed, biked and snow boarded. Was nearly going crazy before I finally came out. Lost only a couple friends, no family, and am very happy! Other than all the laws being passed and the hatred right now.

To comment on this topic, I can only give you my thoughts. I have raced a couple local enduros. There were only a few ladies in the age group, and I was, by a fair amount, probably the oldest. I think I won them both. In my case, it was because the women that I was racing against had not had the years of biking experience that I had. Technically, I was a better rider. All of them were far more fit than me, and in a cross country race would have beaten me easily. Also, raced an all women's event once at Tiger Mt. in the expert category and finished next to last, I believe. Each of these races were just fun events and no money awarded. So happy to see all the young women that now have the chance to start riding at a very young age, that are such amazing riders already.

I am the type of person that is not that competitive. It was mostly just fun riding and meeting people. As far as the top tier competitions that are paying out money, I can say that I would never enter a competition in the women's category. Not now, and not if I was younger in good shape. I feel I do have a strength advantage, even now, but I'm old and endurance not what it was. Still riding black diamond trails and enjoying being out, just not as fast anymore.

As I said above, I am not a real competitive person. This new ruling would never affect me or the 99.998% of any other trans people that are probably living. If I was a person that was good enough to race in these events, I would probably happily enter an open category and try to beat as many guys as I could.

If this is the new ruling, I would follow it. However, if I ever make the mistake of traveling anywhere like Texas, Arkansas, Florida or any of the states that are passing daily bills against trans people, I imagine that I will possibly be arrested eventually, because I will not use a mens bathroom. All I am doing is using the bathroom. Nothing more, so I would probably break that rule. In the end, all I want out of the rest of my life is to enjoy what time I have left with current and new friends, and, get to Canada as much as I can.

This is the most I have ever written on any online site. Probably won't say much more. Not on any social media, too much negativity. If anyone actually reads this, I hope I was able to explain a little. Just thought someone might actually want to hear from someone else. Sorry it was so long. Obviously, these are my views only.
  • 4 1
 @Nevergnu massive respect for entering the fray and offering a first-hand account.
Chuckled at your comment about ‘enter the Open Cat to see how many guys I could beat’. That’s always been my wife’s goal too. She’s like, “let me at ‘em”. As you said, the Open Cat now creates that chance.
Thanks again for speaking up
  • 18 2
 This definitely a tough one, one one side you want to make sure there is an all inclusive atmosphere, but on the other you want to protect women's sports and allow them to grow and compete in an atmosphere that is fair to them and not setting them back in any way possible. I didn't like reading about Hannah Arensman dropping out of cyclocross, to me allowing that to happen set women's cycling way back. I applaud this decision by British Cycling
  • 46 1
 An inclusive atmosphere isn’t something required in elite sport, only recreational sport where there will be no such ban.

Elite sport by definition isn’t inclusive, you have to be good enough to participate, the rest of us spectate and participate recreationally.
  • 1 0
 @justanotherusername: @justanotherusername: British Cycling rules apply to all Elite, Expert, Sport and Junior classes in mtb. Unless I missed something this will apply to any sanctioned national or regional event and affect recreational racers.
  • 5 1
 @Murder-One: You're still listing competitive sport divisions - and girls should absolutely have a protected female category so they can grow, improve, and prepare for elite sport. Recreational sport would refer to neighborhood fun leagues or non-competitive intramurals, which will usually be open to all. However, it's still important to respect "fun leagues" that are meant to be women-only. Male athletes should feel free to start their own fun leagues, but not to run roughshod over women's boundaries.
  • 2 0
 @eckljkr: I agree but I'm just pointing out it isn't only Elite that it affects. Most of the Sport cat isn't there to win and this ruling covers a lot of events.
  • 4 10
flag dualcrownscottspark (May 28, 2023 at 9:41) (Below Threshold)
 I must say in Hannah's case I feel it's a bit ridiculous to quit racing just because you lost to someone (and that person did not even win at that race). I've actually met the person she says that she quit because of. I must say that Austin Killips is one of the most hardworking people you'll ever see. She's worked really hard to be at the level she is at. But here it seems that Hannah just chalks it up to Austin being trans and quits instead of trying to better herself. Hannah wouldn't even have won the race if Austin wasn't there, so I just really don't understand her reaction. If anything it just seems like bad sportsmanship.
  • 10 0
 @dualcrownscottspark: pretty poor understanding of the situation. Many women feel like they are fighting a losing battle and that opportunity is stolen with public praise. That can burn you out pretty fast.
  • 9 7
So first off, I will be upfront and say I have biases on this subject, I'm a trans guy. But I'm a person who has raced women's categories so I think I can speak on behalf of my experience at least. I've never thought that I've been in an unfair situation because I was in a race with a trans person.

I never raced as a pro so I cannot say anything about that but I do have some friends that have raced pro (competitively) in women's CX races. I have never heard any of them say anything about feeling cheated because a trans woman was in their race (if anything they did not care or were even just happy to race with more fast people).

With my experience racing amateur CX I had never felt I was "fighting a losing battle" because there were trans women in my races. To me, at the end of the day we're just trying to be the best versions of ourselves so why does it really matter? I understand that's not everyone's view with races though, so I get how if you considered being a trans women doping how that could get frustrating. I am no doctor and have no personal experience with HRT so I cannot comment on how much strength is lost on hormones, but from what I've seen you do lose a lot of strength on estrogen and T blockers. So to me, I've never seen it that way. (Sorry if this whole response is formatted weird, I was just trying to make it a little easier to read).
  • 11 3
 @dualcrownscottspark: At recreational level you may think you are competing to be ‘the best version of yourself’ but as you say that’s not everyone’s view of sport.

Now put yourself in the position of a woman who pays the mortgage by winning races, is fighting for places for a scholarship or in real danger in the boxing / mma ring, lots of examples of how you may not feel so comfortable.
  • 22 2
 Pick a gender and be a “dick” about it
  • 18 2
 The fact trans men are just not competitive and will get smoked in competition and trans women dominate speaks for itself, and the numbers involved in competition are heavily tipped one way because it's much easier to podium when you've had all the benefits of biological superior strengths versus the near impossibility of beating biological men in competition when you were born a woman, its quite depressing that simply stating facts gets you instantly labelled transphobic by easily triggered irrational aggressive truth and fact deniers whose attempts to debate mean trying their best to silence the opposing fact based views. Women on Peds still can't match the levels of lowered testosterone trans, it's so obviously unfair it's beyond illogical.
  • 1 0
 Your last sentence brings up an interesting point, which I've wondered about in relation to the viability of creating a "Trans/non-binary/genderfluid/intersex" category for people who don't fit into a standard binary category. It seems British Cycling and most of the commenters here agree that cutting down Testosterone levels in a biological man does not make their performance level drop to the equivalent of a biological female, however I think most people would agree that it has to drop their performance level somewhat. On the flip side, giving Testosterone to a biological female, who now identifies as male, seems to be a performance enhancer (or at the very least, it's a popular doping strategy for strength and power sports to build muscle, and to speed recovery in endurance sports, thus allowing a higher training load).

Given that, I've wondered if they sort of meet up in the middle, in such a way that one could have a fair, genderless, "Trans" category. Your point about being able to compare the performances of women on PEDs to trans women would allow a sort of test of that theory, but it seems that you think it is still clearly slanted toward a trans advantage. Are you aware of any data on the subject, or are you simply looking at cases of trans women winning events and assuming some of their cis competitors were on PEDs?
  • 17 1
 You can't win with this subject, I feel. I am a big fan of equality for all. . But it doesn't work in sports. The heart of the problem is wanting sports to be fair. It isn't. You need the right mentality and the hard work to succeed. But you also need the 'talent', which comes down to the genes you were born with. Many of the genes that are beneficial can be found on the Y chromosome.
The guy who comes 10th in the men's competition is still a lot faster than the woman who comes first. Yet she gets a price and he doesn't. Is that fair? No. But I don't like the idea of getting rid of gender categories in sports either, as it excludes a too wide group of people from being competetive.
Sports and medicine are the two fields where discrimination on sex is justified. We don't elect a president of each gender, or have a male and female teacher for each class. Only in sports (and some other competitions) do we have male and female champions. That makes sense. The bodies are different. Trans women still can't have babies, trans men won't develop prostate cancer.
Not being able to participate in sports competitions as the person that you feel you are sucks, I understand that. But if you're going to make categories anyway, I think it is most correct to base them on the genetic buildup, not on gender choice.
  • 2 0
 Capacity to work hard as well our other psychological traits are also defined by genes at large extent. So they should also be included in talents category.
  • 2 0
 @Juuhan: Yes, but there is an element of choice therein, and some influences of upbringing and environment that can have strong effects.
  • 23 6
 Well done British Cycling. This issue is about fairness in sport, not the general acceptance of transgender people as is being misconstrued by many.
  • 19 2
 Emily's first sentence: "British Cycling has just banned us from racing" - no they didn't, you can still race.
  • 4 25
flag sirbikealot (May 27, 2023 at 2:41) (Below Threshold)
 they are banned from racing competitively, so yes she is banned.
pleasure "races" is not the same and you know it
  • 16 0
 @sirbikealot: no one has been banned from racing competitively. The only thing these new rules put a stop to is biological men competing in the women’s category. Everyone - male, female, trans male or trans female - is allowed to compete in the open category.
  • 13 3
 @sirbikealot: yah, i woke uo today filin lazy, took some or none hormones and wanted to clean sweep the womans category, and now that i cannot, im the one whose been robbed? Camonnnnnnn
  • 1 19
flag DetroitCity (May 27, 2023 at 8:06) (Below Threshold)
 @boopiejones: not true. Open is for men. No women. Read the rules
  • 13 1
 @DetroitCity: actually it is true. “Those whose sex was assigned female at birth are also able to compete in the ‘Open’ category if they so wish.” Quoted directly from British Cycling in the article above.

“Transgender women, transgender men, non-binary people and those whose sex was assigned male at birth will be eligible to compete in the ‘Open’ category. The ‘Female’ category will remain in place for those whose sex was assigned female at birth and transgender men who are yet to begin hormone therapy. Those whose sex was assigned female at birth are also able to compete in the ‘Open’ category if they so wish.”
  • 4 0
 @boopiejones: good call. I overlooked that and only noticed the first part.
  • 15 1
 Emily Bridges needs serious mental help. Gotta be the worst "spokesperson" for trans rights, spewing hyperbolic, infantile, temper-tantrumy crap online for everyone to see how narcissistic they are.
  • 19 3
 Besides me, are there actually any women in this comment thread?
  • 7 3
 as a man with daughters I'd like to hear your comments/opinions on this topic
  • 28 18
 seemingly not. as a female competitor for over a decade, i can say whole heartedly that I have never been robbed of a placing or victory by a trans woman. women's racing is not and has never been "dominated by trans women" like this comment section seems to purport.
  • 16 2
 @aerob: You might want to check out
  • 30 37
flag soup4myfamily (May 26, 2023 at 14:55) (Below Threshold)
 @aerob: see my thoughts exactly. This , as with many subjects bigots like to frame in a sensationalized manner, isn’t the opinion of the majority, they are just the loudest. Women shouldn’t be forced to ride with men, it should be their choice. Same if men want to compete with men.
It’s been my experience that transwomen in the sport only want to be included, not “dominate” as you all are spinning this up. I have never seen an trans woman compete in a category they simply out matched the competition. The field was always level and rarely did they even podium. Comradery, community, and a safe space away from the machismo and “bro” ego seem to me is what these pioneers in this sport have wanted. This comment section ad well as that of the Red Bull formation post make me embarrassed to identify as an mtn biker. A sport I love dearly annd want to share with anyone that seeks access to it. None of you appear to be authorities on the matter, or endocrinologists. All of you men in here calling trans women anything other than a woman should be ashamed of yourselves.
  • 22 15
 @soup4myfamily: complete nonsense.
  • 10 1
 @aerob: I don't think that's the point people are making. The point is to ultimately PREVENT that from becoming the norm.
  • 7 1
 @Adamrideshisbike: Solid argument.
  • 15 5
 @gnarnaimo: 91.7% of female athletes want to compete in single-sex competitions. (Survey of 50 current and former female high-performance athletes).

So that rebutts the first line of that non-sense. I don't need to go any further. It doesn't get any better.
  • 7 2
 @Adamrideshisbike: Wow man, thanks for posting that article, that is pretty wild about the trajectory of CCES. I have often wondered about the perspectives of women racers on the topic. My observations have been that there seem to be a small number of cis-women competitors who are very pro trans inclusion, and a small number who are anti trans inclusion, with a silent majority that leaves a lot of question about the overall picture. Both extremes often lay claim to speaking for the silent majority, with no easy way for the outside observer to know where the truth lies. I've been inclined to think they leaned anti, for the reason that the social penalties for coming out as pro trans inclusion for an athlete are nearly non-existent, but coming out as anti will get you labeled as a bigot, a transphobe, and often leads to losses of hard won sponsorships, however I didn't want to make assumptions. The article you link to seems to support that idea though, as far as where the silent majority stands.

It seems like some sort of anonymous voting system for women in sport could be helpful for matters like this. They're ultimately the ones most affected by these decisions, so it is pretty bananas that the Canadian governing bodies were making these decisions without consulting the female athletes themselves.
  • 12 11
 Actually impressive how quickly this went from “um, any other women here?” to Adam explaining why he thinks the women commenters are morons.
  • 1 6
flag spaced (May 28, 2023 at 9:52) (Below Threshold)
 @eckljkr: can you give me a % not a list? So we can really see if it's common?
  • 3 7
flag spaced (May 28, 2023 at 9:55) (Below Threshold)
 @Adamrideshisbike: why is this nonsense?

Adam i get that you care for your daughters but can you make a honest attempt at looking at it from the trans athlete side? Do you know how difficult it is to transition? Even excluding the social stigma it's not an easy or fun process. Quite the opposite. I can't speak on it from experience but I have friends who were open with me. After hearing their stories I'd never come at it from an angle of "someone is transitioning to get an easy win". Especially since last time I checked a mediocre male athlete still earns more than a top female athlete unless they are literally in the top of the top in the world.
  • 3 6
 @mybaben: That's a bit of an insincere argument you are making since it can't really become the norm for one simple reason. There aren't enough trans people for it to become the norm. I get that media sensationalizes the topic so it seems like it's a huge group but ask yourself. How many trans people you know or heard there are in your area? Since I move in pretty progressive groups in 2 large european cities and I've met less than 10 trans people in person. The current studies suggest sub 1:250 people are identifying as trans.
  • 6 1
 Pinkbike is a complete sausage fest although I suspect there are more lady sausages in this thread than is normal for this site.
  • 8 3
 @spaced: I know trans people and have immense respect for them and the dignity with which they live. And I emphasize with how hard it is to be different, be that of a different background, different race, different religious or gender presentation.

Sport is divided by sex and males have no business competing against women. That's my view. The rest is you trying to draw out bigotry in me that does not exist. I am not right wing. I have held membership in but one Canadian political party and it was the NDP.
  • 8 1
 @spaced: 1. We have no idea what the future will bring in human demographics, so we need to protect women's sports.
2. Using your "data" I would then argue that this shouldn't even be a conversation since we would only hurt the feelings of such a small percentage of people. NO trans women should be allowed to compete with real women.
  • 12 0
 Androgens are a competitive advantage, hence why they are also banned in competition. Anyone exposed to them developmentally does have an advantage. Tough for everyone affected.
  • 18 4
 I would feel uneasy if trans were competing in female boxing. Despite any research or science.
  • 13 2
 There’s a detailed and very well thought out video by the group, FairPlay For Women, which includes contributions from the likes of Daley Thompson, Sharon Davies and Mara Yamauchi, on the subject of Trans Women in Women’s sport.
It’s never been about complete exclusion, but about maintaining fairness. Being inclusive is fine, but not when it puts others at risk or at a disadvantage.
The very fact that every women’s World and Olympic record in track and field athletics, has been beaten by teenage boys, says everything you need to know about the advantages that males gain from puberty.
  • 3 0
 Don't confuse us with facts!!
  • 18 4
 Ban all sports, problem solved.
  • 10 0
 It's a good (if obvious) development, but, even in the face of "good" news on this topic, the trans issue overall has made me quite concerned about the suggestibility of people, from all walks of life. It's distressing to see that unlike most other absurd claims, the trans claim tends to concentrate in the sectors where we take great pains to filter out absurdities, i.e, at the academic, institutional, etc. level. The number of seemingly mature, autonomous, educated, and "smart" adults - often in positions of the authority - easily manipulated towards irrational ends has been quite astounding to me. That we even got here in the first place is just mind numbingly indicting of our institutions.
  • 4 2
 @burnermtb, its called postmodernism. A fashionable socialist ideology used to warp a generation of young minds. It encourages the idea that there are no truths, that anything can be anything else if you want it to be.
Witness the current generation of people who argue with a straight face that the physical impossibility that a Man can be a woman as the fruit of post modernism. Just invent a thing called "gender" and then claim gender overrides genetic sex, thousands of years of human history and the behaviour of how every other mammal in the world functions.
  • 3 1
 @dave119: I think there's something to the idea that "pomo" is at the heart of a lot of this stuff. If I were to "steel man" the trans claim, gender identity, so-called, is, at best, a "meta" belief. It's a kind of pseudo-spiritual belief in the idea that there is a "gender identity" distinct from biological sex, which cannot be empirically shown, but which some people passionately believe in. Meta claims, much like many religious claims, are ultimately unknowable. And it works both ways, in that I cannot say, definitively, that they are untrue, but believers, likewise, cannot say they are definitively true. Meta claims are perfectly fine, provided that they adhere to this basic principle. If someone wants to believe in the meta claim of gender identity, that's OK, but what is not OK is to impose it on me, who does not believe in that meta claim. For the most part, the developed world has settled on this basic principle as applied to formally recognized religion.

Strangely, however, it appears that the desire to impose unknowable beliefs did not go away along with the secularization of the developed world. It just manifested itself in different and more obscure ways. I think POMO (or at least a sort of crude, "street" version of POMO) does play a major role in this, by instantiating this concept of subjectively defined truth. This, in turn, is being imposed on everyone else - often in terrible ways. It's a really troubling trend and I think a lot of people seriously underestimate the problem.
  • 15 3
 Well done British Cycling. A good day for women. Hope UCI and NZ cycling follow.
  • 2 0
 NZ cycling will need a referendum to decide.
  • 10 1
 Please stop linking to the E-Alliance study and presenting it as saying transwomen don't have a biological advantage. It acknowledges briefly that there is no conclusive evidence, because the studies have not been done. All women have been ignored and understudied as it pertains to sport science but that doesn't mean allowing transwomen at the elite level to compete is fair. pinned tweet is the best explanation out there.
  • 14 1
 This comment section has been way better than expected
  • 1 0
 Great username.
  • 4 0
 @iamamodel: Haha, thanks. I suffered a long time as a runner until I could finally afford the bike life. Never going back if I can help it!
  • 2 0
 @Bikesbecauserunningsucks: I found it funny because my dirty little secret is that I started my bike racing as a... triathlete!
  • 3 11
flag spaced (May 28, 2023 at 10:00) (Below Threshold)
 It was not. I've seen people claiming trans people transition only to win in sports, to rape people and comparing trans activists to nazis. Not sure it can get any worse.
  • 11 2
 @spaced: True, that is ridiculous. Trans activists are much closer to Stalinists that Nazis!
  • 1 0
 @Bikesbecauserunningsucks: Biking will always trump running, but nothing helps (me) shed the winter weight like running.
  • 5 0
 @jsnfschr: Great way to get in shape for cheap, but it just hurts for no reason.
  • 9 1
 I think a lot of what fuels the divisiveness in conversations about this topic is those against transgender women competing in female categories tend to disregard individuals pursuing their passion and paint with broad strokes. However the opposite end of the conversation often can dismiss those criticizing by labeling them as transphobic. either way, it'll be interesting to see how the comments turn out on this post. I don't think there's a straightforward way to change restrictions on admission into the sport until the other factors contributing to societal insecurities are solved. While I think there's cases supporting either side of the argument, making large changes to rule sets will always have the possibility of hurting those who feel dis-empowered by these organizations
  • 25 17
 Simply look at any sport out there. Males are superior athletes. Fact. Anyone who argues that point is just stubbornly blinded by their ideology. Bascketball, soccer, tennis, baseball, football, swimming, cycling, you name it. It is what it is. Stronger bone density, more lung capacity, more muscle. Sorry "ladies".
  • 4 24
flag GotchaJimmy (May 26, 2023 at 12:15) (Below Threshold)
 I've heard males are also the best jelqers, especially with their superior bone density. Are you practiced in the matter?
  • 6 1
 Ultradistance cycling begs to differ, but in general, yes.
  • 9 16
flag loamseeker (May 26, 2023 at 13:17) (Below Threshold)
 Not true. Rock climbing, ultra running, ultra cycling, free diving, long distance swimming, archery, shooting, equestrian, auto racing, are all examples of sports where women can and do outperform men.
  • 5 4
 Believing this seems like a slippery slope that would result in continued discrimination against women. What's to stop anyone from making the same stereotypical claims about workplace performance and use that to give preferential treatment to one sex or another?
  • 9 0
 @dcaf: @loamseeker: Yes, it seems that the longer the event, the closer the sexes get. For powerlifting, men's records are often over 50% higher weights, which is obviously huge, but for the bicycling Race Across America, the overall record difference as of a couple years ago was 12.4%. It is also noteworthy that Seana Hogan's women's RAAM record was set almost 30yrs ago and is still is head and shoulders above the women's 2nd place, with over a 10% difference between her and the next fastest woman, whereas there are quite a few men who would be within that margin of the men's record, so she's a real outlier.

Similarly, the 2021 Western States 100 running race was noteworthy for having 3 women finish in the top 10 overall, which is really remarkable for a race with over 200 entrants. However, the top women's finisher (Beth Pascall), in 7th place, was still about 2.5 hours behind the overall winner, which amounts to a bit over 14%. I'm not aware of the gap ever getting past a floor of about 10% for a well attended endurance athletic event with a robust fields of competitors, but I'm open to being proven wrong.

I know that there are some really impressive overall records held by women, for example swimming from Cuba to Florida without a shark cage, however, the woman who set that record was 64 years old at the time, which suggests to me that there isn't a lot of competition for that sort of title, or surely a younger person (of any sex/gender combination) would hold the record. What kind of figures have you seen for other, well attended, Ultradistance events?
  • 9 0
 @thekaiser: And the longest event of all, women out live men...
  • 8 0
 @loamseeker: Auto racing?
  • 19 2
 @loamseeker: @loamseeker: free diving - male 253m, female 214. Ultra running 100km ; male - 6:05:41 , female - 6:33. Auto racing - are you joking?
  • 21 10
 I love the "other studies" link in the story that goes to a trans activist pdf
  • 14 1
 It's not a peer reviewed study so can't really call it a study. Peer review research is the backbone of science. It's an agenda piece that cherry picks and ignores results within cited studies.
  • 7 0
 @BeesNest: I'm not granting carte blanche to every conspiracy nut out there, but academic capture is a thing. Even "Peer Review", sadly, is a gameable system these days. Makes it incredibly difficult to break (some) cutting edge ideas, or introduce evidence that upsets the status quo.

But 100% agree with your point--that agenda piece is hot garbage.
  • 17 9
 The ‘Female’ category will remain in place for those whose sex was assigned female at birth and transgender men who are yet to begin hormone therapy. Better but still not great. People born with dicks should not compete against females at all. Take your hormone replacement therapy and race against men. Females don’t want biological men in their sports. It is simple. Don’t complicate it. WTF.
  • 23 1
 I think you're confused. A trans man who hasn't had hormone therapy is someone who was borne female and hasn't yet done anything about it.
  • 12 3
 @AgrAde: he is confused but man...this type of stuff really shouldn't be a something we should even need to clarify. If you told me this was a conversation I'd be having on a mtb website I'd laugh at you 15 years ago...
  • 11 1
 It’d be pretty badass if some female jumped into the open category just to beat as many guys as possible. The door is open!
  • 3 10
flag DetroitCity (May 26, 2023 at 14:42) (Below Threshold)
 No its not. Read the rules. Women can only race the women category.
  • 5 0
 @DetroitCity: What if they are transitioning to Open?
  • 10 1
 I've seen that some commenters are saying that this decision is exclusionary to trans women competing in cycling. Is it truly exclusionary if they are welcome to compete in an Open category?
  • 12 4
 As a father with a transgender daughter, I accept her to be him but that said, I told him that never pick a fight with a real men because you don't have a strength of man. I act like one and look like one but you don't have that strength of a man and He knows that, so that said.. the opposite to this is that men to be a women is unfair for the real women. Sorry but i have to agree and yes, I talk to my son before I speak up on this topic.
  • 13 3
 Common sense. Biological men who claim themselves as females should not be competing against biological females. Full stop. Can't believe this is still a debate.
  • 9 1
 You wanna know how you can REALLY see if there is a benefit to a man transitioning to a woman after puberty? Like how this dude says there is no scientific basis to it lol

See how many women who transition to men are competing at any decent level of sport and holding their own (no pun intended) against biological men.

It isn't happening because real adult men have a massive massive advantage over women. Period. And men who have gone through puberty still have this even if they subsequently transition and have low testosterone levels

I would also ask why they are so against competing just against other transactions athlete's?

And as for the genocide comment Smile lol f*cking hell.
  • 10 0
 Words aren't violence. Violence is violence. Anyone who who equates words with violence hasn't been punched in the face or choked out.
  • 15 3
  • 14 4
 Can we let the open category include doping too? Just let me get after it any way they seem fit and see who is fastest.
  • 4 1
 Them get after*
  • 14 7
 The best solution for this insane world we live in. Anyone who thinks Men who now "identify" as female can fairly compete with women are lying to themselves to support make themselves feel better about their views. A women specific category and an open category has been my suggestion for quite a while.
  • 2 0
 I also thought it would be good to let the biological women vote on it democratically. It's their sport! It feels shitty telling them how "their sport is going to work".
  • 15 8
 I am a pretty opened minded person. I spend a lot of time around some "fluid" folks (as in live with someone who is dating one).

But there is definitely an issue and it isn't being discussed (much) in a fair manner about sports. I tried to look for some highly successful trans men in sports, and came up pretty empty handed. There are a few okay examples; a boxer who has two pro fight wins (look them up and judge the results for yourself), a triathlete who was never top 10, best result I found was 55th, and those were the two best examples. But on the flip side, we are seeing a LOT of trans women being dominant.

Honestly, the only fair thing I can think of is to just drop all categories. No men or women, just pro. But for most sports, we know how that would end up.
  • 3 1
 Thanks for providing a bit of data on the subject, as I've wondered the same as you, given that trans-men are on supplemental testosterone so it seems they must get a boost in their performance vs. pre-transition. As you say, dropping all categories would be one type of "fairness", but it seems like giving more categories a chance to win is advantageous both for individuals and for sport in general.

If you'll excuse me partially cutting and pasting my reply to earlier comment on a similar line of thinking, I wanted to add the following regarding the possibility for fairness by adding a new category, which would allow for more winners than just 1 big "Open" category: I've wondered about the viability of creating a "Trans/non-binary/genderfluid/intersex" category for people who don't fit into a standard binary category. It seems British Cycling and most of the commenters here agree that cutting down Testosterone levels in a biological man does not make their performance level drop to the equivalent of a biological female, however I think most people would agree that it has to drop their performance level somewhat. On the flip side, giving Testosterone to a biological female, who now identifies as male, seems to be a performance enhancer (or at the very least, it's a popular doping strategy for strength and power sports to build muscle, and to speed recovery in endurance sports, thus allowing a higher training load). Given that, I've wondered if they sort of meet up in the middle, in such a way that one could have a fair, genderless, "Trans" category.
  • 11 2
 A bit late, but finally a win for fairness, women's sports, and common sense! Also, a loss for "the louder you yell, the righter you are" crowd.
  • 12 4
 It's nice to see a governing body finally standing up for women's sporting, protecting female competitors from the virtue signaling insanity of woke morons.
  • 6 1
 Good. Im sorry that’s it’s taken this long for a whole generation of biologically female athletes to be treated fairly. Integrity and equity in women’s sport is the key to get more women into it at an elite level

Bring in a third category for trans/intersex. Inclusion for anyone who wants to ride a bike is also so important. Bikes are a very inclusive church.

Inclusion integrity
  • 6 1
 An open category? Sure, it's 2023 why not... Leave women's sports to natural born women!! I never considered myself a male feminist but in this regard I guess somebody has to care about the welfare of real women because the women feminists don't seem to give a plan crud.
  • 11 2
 Massive W for Woman
  • 7 0
 Npw they just need to do this for every sport otherwise all sports would be dominated by guys
  • 6 0
 It's terrifying that this decision took 9 months. I hope they don't face any difficult decisions any time soon, competitors will die waiting.
  • 9 2
 Great news for sportswomen and well done British Cycling
  • 3 0
 I think CONSENT is the real issue here. What if there was an open category for gender/ sex like some races do for age? Then everyone would have an option, and anyone who chose that class would be aware of and consent to competition with other sorts of folks outside of their regular, less inclusive class as opposed to accommodating a small minority by opening up the women's class. It seems like most folks issue with people who have transitioned to female is that the biological women seem to have less opportunity due to transitioned women having more potential physical prowess than biological females.
In a way, I see this similarly to amending the master's class to allow someone from the elite class to race. If a younger person wants into the master's class it's incorrect because the original competitors did not agree to race elite, they agreed to race masters.

However, if all parties are aware that an age class is available to mix ages, then anyone who races that class has agreed to it.

No loss of opportunity and nobody being expected to compete against another physical form without their express CONSENT
  • 6 0
 To be fair, it shouldn't happened to any women gategory at any sport, never.
  • 8 1
 Finally common sense prevails.. Well done British Cycling.
  • 3 0
 So I haven't read all the comments here but, I thought I'd post this article or those who are intersted:

It's an open access research/ review paper in the British Journal of sports medicine, so anyone can read it.

I'm no sports scientist, but the discussion of the paper offers some intersting findings. (I reccomend reading the introduction and discussion sections, at the top and bottom of the article) For example:


'the small decrease in strength in transwomen after
12–36 months of GAHT suggests that transwomen likely retain a
strength advantage over cisgender women. Whether longer duration
of GAHT would yield further decrements in strength in transgender
women is unknown.
In contrast to strength-related data, blood cell findings revealed
a different time course of change. After 3–4 months on GAHT, the
HCT19 or Hgb16 levels of transwomen matched those of cisgender
women, with levels remaining stable within the ‘normal’ female
range for studies lasting up to 36 months. Given the rapid fall in
Hgb/HCT to ‘normal’ female levels with GAHT, it is possible that
transfemale athletes experience impaired endurance performance in
part due to reduced oxygen transport from the lungs to the working
muscles.62 This postulate is consistent with findings reported in one
of the few studies conducted in athletic transwomen.63 In this study,
the race times of eight transfemale distance runners were compared
at baseline and after one or more years of GAHT. After adjusting
performance for age, the eight runners were not more competitive
in the female category (after GAHT) than they had been in the male
category (before GAHT). Given this, and that the changes in Hgb/
HCT follow a different time course than strength changes, sportspecific regulations for transwomen in endurance ver strength sports
may be needed.'

Not offering an opinion - just posting. Smile
  • 8 1
 *Popping popcorn sounds
  • 6 1
 Conspiracy theory: British cycling does that only to win some sympathy back after taking sponsorship money from
Shell ;-)
  • 6 0
 Should not had taken 9 months,
  • 6 1
 I think athletes from rich countries have an unfair advantage over athletes from poor countries.
  • 2 0
 My idea, have the classes be based on chromosomes instead of gender. One class for people with a Y chromosome, and one for people without. Within the classes people can compete as whichever gender they choose. If you want to compete, dress as, and be addressed as a male in the without Y chromosome class, no problem, as long as you don't have a Y chromsome. If you want to compete as a female, be dressed and addressed as a female in the with Y chromosome category, go for it. Also no issue, compete as your preferred gender, within the class determined by your chromosomes.
  • 8 3
 Or, you know, they could make a third category.
  • 12 1
 @TwoNGlenn: Ebikes?
  • 3 2
 like the open one they have. Male, female and open.
  • 4 0
 @mtb-scotland: To be accurate, my understanding of the new policy, as detailed in the above article, is that the "Male" category has become the "Open" category, so still 2 categories. Your idea of "Open" as a 3rd category would be an interesting modification of the idea that has been bandied about previously for a "Trans/Non-binary/Genderfluid category. By making this new 3rd category simply "Open" then it would open the door to the female competitors who don't have concerns about racing with trans-women to demonstrate their lack of prejudice by entering the "Open" category instead of the newly restrictive "Women's" category, which would be an interesting twist on things.
  • 1 0
 @thekaiser: the problem with that approach could be political decision of sponsors - they can force their athletes to join open.

Just think of it. Which is more cool from public perspective: having a female athlete in the women category or in the open category? Especially if an athlete is somewhere in the middle of a pack in either way.
  • 1 0
 @severniy: That is a good point. If they're not on the podium, then it doesn't matter so much which category they're in, so sponsor/social pressure could deplete the women's category.
  • 5 0
 Got here and went straight to the comments Smile
  • 3 2
 trans woman is transitioning woman that is the state they are stuck in the of their life. Caught in between genders as it’s impossible to fully transition

You can’t change the pelvis or your internal organs. Facts people not feelings
  • 13 9
 Wouldn't the world be rubbish if we all fitted into just 2 categories
  • 5 0
 Not sure I'd call sex a category.
  • 2 2
 @mybaben: nor would I - I'd call it fun. But I'd call male a category in the context of sport
  • 11 7
 we all fit into 1 category, technically....... but sex is infact, binary. Yes there are extreme outliers where things go wrong and people are born with a mix of chromosomes and body parts. That doesn't mean it's the correct configuration. Same as saying someone born with Downs Syndrome is a genetic error. It just is. They don't stop existing or lose their chance to be a member of society, but to call it anything other than a genetic mistake, is lying. same with Sex. there are male and female, everything else is an error genetically.
  • 8 8
 @Mtbdialed: In humans there are 6 common sex karyotypes: XX, XY, XXY, XXXY, & XYYY. & there are 4 rare sex karyotypes: XO, XO/XX mosaicism, XY/XXY mosacism, XXY/XXXY/XXXXY mosaicism.

its not quite ones and zero's
  • 6 2
 @soup4myfamily: and how many of those manifest into a human with a penis&testicles and also ovaries and a Uterus? how many of those just turn out men, and how many just turn out women?
  • 2 0
 @Tambo: LOL. Wink
  • 10 0
 @soup4myfamily: No. In humans there are two common sex karyotypes, XX and XY. XXY is 1 in 500 males (so about 1 in a 1000 humans), XXXY is in the 1 in 20,000 (high estimate) and then the others you mentioned get even rarer from there. 1 in 50,000 is NOT "common".
  • 8 4
 @Mtbdialed: we’ll I’m glad you bring this up because I bet you didn’t know that 99% of the time when these combinations exist, the doctors convince the parents to mutilate whatever genitalia they new born pops out with to suit whatever their medical assessment is of what the doc thinks their physical sex should be. Kinda f*cked up when there is all this uproar about “teens mutilating their bodies” with HRT and the parents being punished for being “complicit” ie supportive in the matter.
I know at lot you in this thread spend way more time thinking about Penises than you would regularly admit lol
  • 2 3
 @iamamodel: you know, once upon a time, they medical community published papers on how they estimate on how many people where dealing with sever enough gender dysphoria to warrant transitioning through surgery as 1 in 70,000. That wasn’t even 20 years ago.
The fact remains those combinations do exist and that was the point I was making. If you link me to which study you’re pulling your numbers from I’ll have a look Wink
  • 2 1
 @soup4myfamily: "I know at lot you in this thread spend way more time thinking about Penises than you would regularly admit lol"

I wasn't aware your mom was in this thread! Hi there, Mrs. Soup4myfamily! call me!
  • 5 1
 This is one juicy comment section
  • 10 6
 W for womens sports. need more of this
  • 6 2
 Finally a bit of common sense
  • 5 3
 Overdue decision, there's a reason we separate males and females in almost every competition sport. Next step would be to add a trans category
  • 4 2
 they don't want that or they would have fought for that. its been over 20years this has been going on. They clearly want whats easiest.
  • 4 4
 I don’t understand fully how to approach this issue, and for the time being I think this could be a good band aid solution.

One of the difficulties of this is the fact that a trans woman would not stand a chance in the men’s category, and trans men would be at an unfair advantage in women’s categories. As well, the gender dysphoria caused by being put in a category that doesn’t match your gender must be tough.

I think a trans category could be a good idea, problem is there aren’t too many trans people in cycling. Maybe we could try and be a little more progressive and inclusive in order to attract more trans people to the sport?
  • 5 6
 It's good to see some people trying to be civil about this topic.
  • 5 1
 Pretty brave pinkbike. Bike rumor shut off the comments on this article
  • 3 1
 Well done. A reality-based classification that doesn't forget inclusiveness. It will only be contested by those seeking an unfair advantage.
  • 1 0
 the tide is turning against the twisted new age gender ideology. pushing transitioned men into womens sports and trying to teach elementary school kids this new rhetoric were huge mistakes.
  • 2 0
 Can we get an expert on the subject
Enter - Dick Pound
With counterpoint by KJ!
Q- if I lop my kak off does that make me a woman?
A- no but your less of a man.
  • 15 13
 Now it's time for medal reallocation ceremonies for the women who've been robbed up until this day.
  • 3 1
 They needed studios and focus groups to arrive at a common sense conclusion. Well done British Cycling for being sensible.
  • 5 2
 Seems like a pretty reasonable decision
  • 4 1
 Cheats will need to back to epo instead.
  • 4 3
 For anyone interested in a good podcast on the topic I would recommend "the witch trials of j.k. rowling". Certainly shifted my view about it.
  • 5 1
 Clown world
  • 4 1
 Open Category should also not be drug tested.
  • 3 0
 Say hi to your mom , uh I mean your dad
  • 3 4
 My sister (PsyD) asked me if trans women should compete with women in sports. I said that it should be left to the governing bodies of each sport. She said that it's unfair for women when trans women join because of the physical differences. I asked her if her if she would be ok if the women completed hormone therapy (and explained to her that I haven't fully understood this topic myself). What she said was something I think only women would understand, and that is their bodies go through changes that men's bodies don't, which puts them at a disadvantage. This is a complicated issue and there is no easy answer to make everyone happy.
  • 8 3
 Is it really that complicated? I think your sister stated it clearly and simply.
  • 4 1
 The answer is extremely easy and there is no reason it should be expected make everyone happy.
  • 3 1
 Is the issue itself complicated or is it the social/cultural/political dynamics surrounding it that are complicated. Put another way, would it be complicated if someone asked you in 2010 whether men should be allowed to compete in women’s competitive sports? I think most people would say no. Today, when asked the same question, many people seem to think it’s “complicated”. But the question is no different. What’s different surrounding climate. Some people (perhaps you) are feeling great pressures - often times with real consequences (like losing your job) - to answer the question in a certain way.
  • 3 2
 Is this why transformation or whatever that rampage womens thing is, was cancelled?
  • 3 0
 mfw men cant race women
  • 2 2
 Can any one remember when life was simple. Boys were boys and Girls were girls and being Gay was something you did on the weekend, Wink
  • 3 1
 That's some nutty news
  • 2 1
 the world has gone crazy !!
  • 7 10
 If you have a dick you are a man. If you have a vagina you are a woman. I actually feel really sorry for the population minority that have biological conditions that effect their sexuality. These are the people who need regulation to be inclusive for them.
  • 1 0
 I'm just here for the comments *reaches into popcorn*
  • 1 0

Thats a man man baby!
  • 14 14
 Hysterical? No, just plain old nuts.
  • 3 3
 Why not just have a “Trans” category?
  • 1 2
 Man, if this involved me it would make me so mad, id lose my balls over it. unacceptable cocks in this post.
  • 2 0
 That was vague and random....
  • 1 0
 @mybaben: oh come on, trying to make it funny.
  • 1 0
 @HeatedRotor: Okay, no worries. Humor doesn't translate over texting and there are a lot of triggered people in the chat, so I didn't get your joke. All good.
  • 3 4
 In the words of Ricky, I toadaso.
  • 1 2
 The tribe has spoken.
Below threshold threads are hidden

Copyright © 2000 - 2023. All rights reserved.
dv42 0.071946
Mobile Version of Website