Burning Question: 7 Brands That Haven't Released an eMTB Yet

Nov 25, 2021 at 2:45
by Ed Spratt  


This past year has seen plenty of fresh new electrified models with names like Pole and Yeti launching bikes and we got a quick look at a potential new eMTB from Evil this month. It has become increasingly rare to see brands not be working on some form of eMTB or even take a stance against these kinds of bikes. With this in mind, we reached out to several brands missing an eMTB in their lineup and asked them why they haven't released one yet and if there are any difficulties, sustainability issues or anything else that could stop them from launching one in the future.

Keith Scott, Owner/Designer at Banshee:

Banshee Titan review

Why haven’t you released an eMTB yet?


There are a whole number of reasons… but I guess the main ones are:

- At Banshee we are purists, and like to ‘earn our turns’.
- I don’t like the idea of unnecessarily introducing the pollution inherent in batteries and consumed power where they simply aren’t required by most people (eMTB are an amazing accessibility tool if someone’s condition requires it, so they have a niche that justifies them, and I’m all for this, but it’s more than covered by the many eMTB makers already in the market)
- We are a small brand, (just 3 people) and there is an economy of scale required to compete in the eMTB world from a pricing perspective, minimum order qty of motors being a big one. We have a sustainable business and strong niche, why be greedy and risk destroying what we have?
- There is lots of red tape around ebikes in terms of regional testing etc… So they are expensive to bring to market, and for our scale it wouldn’t make financial sense.
- I don’t like the current battery/motor options out there. They are generally pretty rudimentary and unrefined afterthoughts added on to a bike, they could just be so much more integrated with gearing etc.
- There is also an element of impact on trail conservation especially on climbs (wheel spins plus more general wear and tear), plus radically different speeds on climbs can cause issue on occasion if riders are not respectful. Something I have personally witnessed a number of times mainly by people renting eMTBs at trail centres.

Would you ever consider releasing an eMTB in the future?


Maybe, but only once the battery tech cleans up significantly, and I’d aim for slight assist rather than loads of power. I quite like the idea of something like 100-200w assistance to help you climb a bit further and faster but without having huge impact on weight and with a much smaller battery and motor. But only once the tech is cleaner and gears are integrated into motor and a few other things like that. I feel eMTBs of today will be laughed at in 10 years time as design and tech improves significantly. I mean, why do eMTBs still have traditional derailleurs when there is so much opportunity to integrate gearing with the motor?

What considerations are there in deciding to release an eMTB?


For us this is mainly about our brand and what we stand for Releasing an eMTB (in their current form) would be hypocritical as we currently do what we can to minimise environmental impact, and we like to promote the purity of riding. Bikes are often considered the most efficient human-powered modes of transport ever created. I guess I just like the human power element, and feel that a lot of our loyal customers feel the same and share ethics.

Do you think releasing an eMTB is a different prospect from a standard bike? Or would it be like adding any different style of bike to your range?


I consider it quite a different prospect. They are for a different type of customer, and different marketing is required as a result. Plus there is the legislation side of things that’s difficult for a boutique brand of our scale to justify.

If you wouldn’t ever release an eMTB, why not?


Never say never, but currently the industry is very guilty of greenwashing. Batteries are not clean tech and even if energy comes from renewables, the infrastructure has significant environmental impact, so it’s not as green as the industry claims. Greenwashing is rife everywhere right now as companies realise the marketing potential of presenting their companies as ‘green’, but when you dig under the surface and look at systems as a whole they are often far more polluting than they would have you believe.

Are there any sustainability or other issues that guide your decisions around eMTBs?


Other than the dirty business of sourcing elements needed for current battery tech, there is also the hysteresis element that means batteries have a finite usable life, and then the recycling element, which I don’t believe is currently as high a priority as it should be. Marketing guys can greenwash it as much as they want, but ultimately it’s needless pollution being pushed into our sport.

Currently, all major motors are a huge design constraint. They limit pivot locations significantly as well as dictate orientation on the frame. The result is that any good short link 4 bar orientation is impossible, so nearly all eMTB’s end up being basic single pivots or generally inefficient horst link designs, and end up basically being iterations of the same sort of design. Current motors dictate frame design and as a result, sacrifice linkage performance.

I should note that I’m for e-bikes for commuting purposes where they replace the use of a car, but eMTB is a different story (Unless you are lucky enough to commute to work along proper mtb trails).



Ben Pinnick, Founder at Bird:


Why haven’t you released an eMTB yet?


We have a bike in prototype, but it's taking a long time due to prototype lead times tripling, and even when we have the frame ready we may not have motors and batteries. Despite the fact we ordered the production motors and batteries as soon as we committed to a certain design, and BEFORE we made our first proto bike! It's just a waiting game now. The supply chain is likely to take 2-3 years to resolve itself, so we’re not sure when it can launch just yet.

Would you ever consider releasing an eMTB in the future?


For us, mail order is the big issue. We have a leading (and I hope deserved) reputation for great customer service and we want to protect that. E-bikes are not as reliable, or maybe less easy to self-diagnose and fix is a better way to put it, as regular bikes, and present a whole raft of extra challenges in terms of diagnostics and service/warranty. That's why we’ve gone EP8 as it has the widest support network. Even then we’ve chosen to go with a more traditional sales route and will be selling the bikes under a different brand and via our partners rather than online. We’re also launching 3 new stores as part of that process to provide servicing hubs for our customers as well as demo and possibly rental fleets too.

What considerations are there in deciding to release an eMTB?


Well, I guess half that question is answered above - yes the idea of a bike with a motor & electronics do present some major challenges for a direct supplier. But also there are two types of bikes to as we see it in terms of the ‘range’ we could logically offer. The Full eMTB with big motors and batteries, and the bike replacement eMTB which is slimmed down to have a more reasonable weight. We’re focused on the big bike right now. We’ve met some challenges that fitting the motor and big battery in brings by adapting our normal design style with some updates and suspension changes that have worked so well I suspect some will make it back into the regular range too. There are of course the smaller niggles of extra cables to handle, and the adaptation of the build process but those are less troublesome.

If you wouldn’t ever release an eMTB, why not?


Some days when I'm working on the eMTB I do wish we weren’t! They do add a layer of complexity to what is otherwise a joyously simple piece of kit. They are also great fun though. I've found myself doing way more wild old-school style riding since the eebs arrived. They really can make rides that at this time of year would be a total chore really enjoyable. My washing machine doesn’t love me so much though. For me, this is the challenge to overcome - ensuring our production eMTB is as reliable and trouble-free as we can make it. If that means lots of filthy rides out in the moors rather than sitting at a desk, I will take one for the team.

Are there any sustainability or other issues that guide your decisions around eMTBs?


Sustainability is a challenge especially when you add in a Lithium battery, and gets harder as the supply chain strains further making you have to compromise on decisions you'd not have to compromise on in normal times. The reality is unless you're making pure commute or cargo eBikes then you've no place claiming your eBike is green. It's just not when compared to a regular bike. There's no real debate on that point and so the best you can do is minimise the impact you make.

We’re taking a different approach than most other manufacturers though, as you'll know reduction and reuse is way better than recycling, and with that in mind rather than put all our efforts into reducing the impact of new stuff, which of course we do in many small ways around the factory and in our shipping, we’re instead focusing on lifetime usefulness of the product. We’re soon launching a refurb service for existing owners to get their bikes refurbed and back to like new for a reasonable cost. We’ve always been fairly cutting edge on our bikes so even a bike with a few years on it is still very relevant in terms of modern geo, so rather than buy a whole new one we can help the owner get it back to better than new. That program will have been running for a while by the time the eBikes start shipping, so we’ll roll them into that as well with support for the complete bike including motor and battery support so you can still get a decent lifespan from your eBike too.



Cy Turner, Founder at Cotic:


Why haven’t you released an eMTB yet?


We haven't released an eMTB yet because we wanted to wait until the tech was a bit more mature, but mainly because the current supply issues combined with prototyping in Taiwan means that it takes a very, very long time.

Would you ever consider releasing an eMTB in the future?


Very much so. [radio announcer voice] I can EXCLUSIVELY REVEAL.... that we have just received our first eMTB prototypes. I signed the drawings off in July 2019, and Shimano tell us even if we order now we won't get drive units and batteries until the end of '23 earliest, so it's a slightly frustrating product to develop. That said, we're looking forward to the fun part now, which is riding and developing the bikes properly. We have one in each size so everyone at Cotic can get involved, and friends beyond the company too. We had our first afternoon of team ebiking last week and there were a lot of laughs, and silly climbs attempted.

What considerations are there in deciding to release an eMTB?


The considerations are that it's a huge market, and it's a part of the sport now, and they're fun! It massively increases the accessibility of mountain biking to people who maybe aren't strong enough to get 'out there' on a regular bike. Cotic is 18 years old. We will have customers from our early years who might well be getting to an age where riding a regular bike isn't fun or even possible anymore. For others, it gives more bang for buck if you only have a limited time window for riding. As good examples, I've done a big ride that would normally take me 3.5 to 4 hours in just over 2, and I've ridden more with my wife in the last two weeks with her having the ebike that we have in years. That last one alone makes it a reason to build one on a personal level.

Do you think releasing an eMTB is a different prospect from a standard bike? Or would it be like adding any different style of bike to your range?


Our eMTB won't be an exact replica of one of our current bikes, but it's very much a variation on the theme. As you can see it runs our proven droplink suspension and Longshot geometry, so you know it's going to handle and feel great. Others may come after, but we're focusing to doing this one right for the moment.

Are there any sustainability or other issues that guide your decisions around eMTBs?


The battery issue is a worry, but given that's a global issue with electric cars etc, the solution will have to present itself. I suspect it will be in the form of battery farms or similar. Just because a battery is done in its initial application, doesn't mean it's useless. If it still holds 70% charge and can happily charge and discharge at a low, steady rate, I see old batteries being used to store electricity generated by renewables where the performance isn't such an issue. You can even build your own powerbanks using old cells relatively easily. One of our friends already does. These seem like a good solution to me, but unfortunately I have no influence on whether it becomes a widespread option. Closer to home, the reliability of the drive units is still improving, and I really hope that a refurb option comes online for the warranty replaced units that fail in service.



Owen Pemberton, CEO at Forbidden:

Forbidden Druid review

Why haven’t you released an eMTB yet?


As a small team with limited resources we have to be very selective when it comes to developing new platforms. This is all the more important when the technology at the core of an emerging category is advancing as fast as it is within the world of eMTBs. As such, we would never jump into anything until we’re 100% ready and have fully evaluated the [eMTB] market and the current offerings that pique our interest. Deciding what kind of eMTB we would like to develop and the design direction to take is, therefore, a huge decision for us. Tossing the ongoing supply chain issues into the mix with some exciting new non-e-platforms, which we can’t talk about and are in development right now, we’re extremely busy and happily distracted, for now anyway.

Would you ever consider releasing an eMTB in the future?


Yes, totally, I think the writing is on the wall; eMTB’s are here to stay! But what is less obvious is how the technology will develop and where the products will shake out during this period of rapid evolution. Motor and battery technology is advancing so fast that I would bet that the eMTB offerings we’ll see and be riding five years from now, will be significantly different from the ones on the market today. Given the rate of development in this sector, we are content to sit back and observe, at least for a little while.

Do you think releasing an eMTB is a different prospect from a standard bike? Or would it be like adding any different style of bike to your range?


Absolutely, the addition of the motor, battery and rider interface make an eMTB a totally different product from a standard MTB. The way the rider and the bike interact with each other, and with the trail, is fundamentally different. To us, this makes it a very different product and as such, would require a different approach. This is why we have chosen to take it slow and learn as much as we can before we develop our own eMTB. We don’t produce “me too” products without motors and we won’t start doing it with [eMTBs].

Are there any sustainability or other issues that guide your decisions around eMTBs?


If we were on the cusp of developing a platform for this category, perhaps, but this topic is hard to cover authoritatively without hard facts to reference. I think it’s fair to say that there are real concerns about the end-of-life options for old motors and batteries especially, and while this is true of any consumer goods with batteries, I am pleased to see initiatives happening within our industry - and the world as a whole - to reduce the environmental impact of battery disposal.



Will Montague, President at Guerilla Gravity:


Why haven’t you released an eMTB yet?


We are actively investing a ton into our operations to meet current demand. We’re a small company with limited resources, so it makes sense for us to sit on the sidelines until we’re able to get through these next few years of infrastructure building.

Would you ever consider releasing an eMTB in the future?


Definitely. We’ve ridden some of the modern eMTBs and think they’re awesome. We’re excited about where the motor and battery tech is going and we are looking forward to seeing how things evolve over the next few years. Further, I think there is a lot of “getting the bugs worked out” happening right now with the current bikes on the market and the bigger companies have the resources to shoulder the costs of early technology adoption.

What considerations are there in deciding to release an eMTB?


It’s no secret that there are some negative aspects to the battery tech as it stands now, both from current supply chain and end-of-life recycling. In addition to keeping an eye on that, another big thing is rider service and support. Presently, a lot of eMTB riders are newer to the sport and need additional support to have a good experience. And even experienced riders buying their first eMTB are new to motor and battery technology, which is just a different “component” than they’ve used before. Lastly, there are additional nuances around product design (e.g. frame and drive system integration) and fulfillment (e.g. shipping of batteries to customers) to consider.

Do you think releasing an eMTB is a different prospect from a standard bike? Or would it be like adding any different style of bike to your range?


If you think about a standard eMTB (like what Santa Cruz or Yeti offers), I would say it’s about “25%” different, so more akin to an additional bike in our range. There are definitely additional considerations for design, ride characteristics, and customer support, but we don’t view them as a totally different animal. Something like a Sur Ron or some of Greyp’s models are, however, very different animals from what we know and love of mountain bikes.

If you wouldn’t ever release an eMTB, why not?


If the carbon footprint and eco impacts begin trending in the wrong direction, or additional information around their impact becomes available, that would definitely affect our decision.

Are there any sustainability or other issues that guide your decisions around eMTBs?


This is something we’re keeping an eye on and that will affect our planning and timing. What the cycling industry is working on in regards to battery recycling is great. We’re optimistic that given all of the focus on EV batteries in general, a lot of the progress will be made on the sustainable sourcing and manufacturing of batteries and their raw material components. While too subjective to fully quantify, I do think there is some amount of offset to riding an eMTB vs driving a car to the trailhead. At a more macro level --and more personal view-- I think the potential of ebikes as the urban transport of choice is very exciting and something I’m excited to be able to participate in (I now ride to work, when I previously had not).



Noel Buckley, CEO/Head Engineer and Jens Lange Sales at Knolly:

Knolly Warden LT Review Photo Kifcat Shaperideshoot

Why haven’t you released an eMTB yet?


Currently, our main focus is on concentrating our resources on our pedal bikes to be able to provide a full range of bikes and make the best engineered and riding aluminum bikes possible. We have introduced four new models during the past 18 months and are still working on expanding our core range, even if lead times are longer given the challenges of Covid.

Would you ever consider releasing an eMTB in the future?


A Knolly eMTB makes sense if motors/batteries continue to get lighter and smaller. For us, we have always prioritized ride quality and feel above anything else, and currently the delta between regular pedal bikes and eMTBs is quite large. As that delta continues to shrink, we feel we can start to look at designing and building a sub 20kg aluminum eMTB that does not compromise the existing advantages of our suspension layout and ride quality.

What considerations are there in deciding to release an eMTB?


The challenge with eMTB is finding our niche: we don't want to bring one to market just because we can. It's actually relatively easy to build an eMTB, what is not easy is differentiating yourself from all of the other products in the marketplace that use the same 5 motor suppliers with the same 3 frame layouts. We have several markets that we can focus on as a high-end niche player and we are looking into those markets. The challenge with good suspension design is in the subtleties. High power eMTBs mute those subtleties and we want to explore how we can exploit the additional power, not just make the same bike but with more available power.

We feel that the layout and intended purpose of a Chilcotin or a Warden would make them the perfect base for a low-torque (around 60nm), small battery (around 400Wh) eMTB that uses the motor as a climbing aid for tech/steep climbs rather than a 900 Wh battery monster, super booster for forest roads and gravel motorways with the sole purpose of breaking KOM records of most meter climbed in a day without getting range anxiety. With smaller, more tunable motor offerings from the likes of Shimano, Yamaha or Fazua we should certainly investigate what's out there and how we can be part of this and how this can be incorporated within our current values and philosophies.

Again, the performance delta between climbing and descending on a pedal bike vs climbing and descending on an eMTB is what we would want to minimize. Our goal with any eMTB would not be to cheapen the experience. It's a bit of a different philosophy compared to most of the eMTBs on the market which are prioritizing maximum power and maximum energy storage.

Do you think releasing an eMTB is a different prospect from a standard bike? Or would it be like adding any different style of bike to your range?


My personal feeling is that they are different. The eMTB market is more complicated than people give it credit for. I think there is a feeling from many high level / purist cyclists who want to marginalize the market as a beginner product or "bringing in new riders" product. Both of those market segments are valid but there is also an extremely skilled user base that purchases eMTBs. Sometimes it's just to be able to fit in an extra lap: the first lap or so are done on the pedal bike, and the 3rd and 4th lap are done on the electric bike. Or perhaps it's due to limited time and you can crank out the climb a lot more quickly. Or it's for commuting. There are lots of reasons. Whether all cyclists agree that it's valid is an ongoing discussion.

Where I disagree with the industry's overall direction is that I don't feel that eMTBs and pedal MTB are the same and currently, there is a lot of advertising pressure trying to make everyone believe that they are the same. This isn't a question of what's better, what's more righteous or ethical. It's recognizing that increasing the rider's effective power output by 3 - 4x is a stepping stone into motorized vehicles. Ten years ago, there were mountain bikes and there were gas-powered dirt bikes with very clearly delineated boundaries. Now, there are 10 steps between the two where you can link the dots together and that is something that we as a user base should all be aware of from an access and legislation standpoint.

Are there any sustainability or other issues that guide your decisions around eMTBs?


Absolutely. Personally, I'm a huge fan of the shift to a purely electric energy future and have been an EV owner for the past couple of years. There is a lot of discussion on battery longevity, repurposing and recycling and how this will be executed on a massive scale to ensure that the environmental benefits of EVs are not partially offset by materials extraction and waste.

For Knolly the question is similar to our recent internal decision to focus on metal bikes and stay away from carbon frames for the foreseeable future. When we talk about "The Three Rs" we tend to forget that they are in order. There is a huge focus on Recycling, but Recycling should be the last option: the first two are Reduce and Reuse. If we focus on Reduce as our key metric, this means that we create high-quality products that last and that don't have planned obsolescence as part of their design. This same philosophy would be key in any eMTBs that we bring to market.



Joe McEwan, Founder at Starling Cycles:


Why haven’t you released an eMTB yet?


As a small company, we cannot get economic prices (or even supply) from the eMTB system manufacturers. They are only interested in the big companies. Also, we are very busy building bikes here in the UK, and only have limited spare time for development...

Would you ever consider releasing an eMTB in the future?


We have been working with a start-up UK motor manufacturer called Freeflow Technologies. They have a great new system nearing commercial readiness: it is small, neat and uses a clever gearing system to reduce motor speeds down to those suitable for pedal assist. We have a first prototype which has been ridden for a good while now. We are working on a second version to refine the design a little. But building a full-sus eMTB out of steel presents a few technical issues, but we're getting there. The proto rides great!!

A closer look at the unique Freeflow technologies motor being used on the current Starling eMTB prototype.

What considerations are there in deciding to release an eMTB?


I think all brands need an eMTB in their range, unless you are happy to stay small and niche. I think Starling Cycles could exist quite happily in the niche market, in fact I think our simple elegant designs and aesthetics will do well in a post eMTBs world. But I always like an engineering challenge, so have been keen to develop the bike...

Do you think releasing an eMTB is a different prospect from a standard bike? Or would it be like adding any different style of bike to your range?


There will be some people not happy with a brand like mine adding an eMTB to our range, but hopefully we can come up with something different to the status quo and add some interest.

Are there any sustainability or other issues that guide your decisions around eMTBs?


I think the issue of batteries is something that will come back to bite us in the future, there is talk of recycling, but I suspect for now it's just greenwashing bullshit.

Also, I think the current failure rate with eMTBs is just not acceptable. I've been told that one particular very big manufacture of eMTBs has a 100% failure rate on motors! Every single bike they sell has the motor fail and it just replaced under warranty. They do this very efficiently, so customers seem to accept it. But the waste is terrible. In a world where the environment is failing because of our actions, I really don't think this is something we should allow. Freeflow technologies motor I am working with has many fewer moving parts, so should be much more reliable. And this is something they are working on very hard.

I also think trail access and conflict issues need resolving. Over time processes and behaviours will develop. But we need to be aware of this and work towards it.



Although not featured in the article the following companies are also missing an eMTB in their ranges:

Calibre
Canfield
Esker Cycles
Ibis
NS Bikes
Pipedream
Pyga
RAAW Mountain Bikes
Ragley
Revel
Salsa
Transition





507 Comments

  • 547 69
 Kudos to Banshee, as always.

My last 3 bikes have been Banshee, Banshee, Knolly and I realize it has a lot to do with the design ethos of those companies.

Everyone buying e in it's current form should realize it comes with negative impacts on the environment. It's not black and white of course, you may still get away with it if you make other reasonable life choices. But don't buy the green washing.

What's not discussed so much is that in a lot of places and with irresponsible use, eMTB can have a negative impact also on our trail networks. Both with regards to land access and wear and tear, either through more watts on the ups, more weight on the downs, or just longer average rides = more trail passages = more wear.

Peace!
  • 76 19
 Beer for you sir!.. Wink Fully agree!...
  • 103 13
 I couldn't agree more about the need to educate new-to-the-sport ebike riders about trail rights of way and access, but my own observations of my local area (the busy Peak District in the UK), if you want to talk about impact due to irresponsible/inappropriate trail use I would say Strava has done way more damage. New tech always has upsides and downsides, and we're trying to be part of the solution by contribution to local trail advocacy and maintenance groups. I do think the big brands and their dealers have a lot more to do to explain what outdoor access should be about though. They're at the coal face of new riders using tech to get into places they'd not ordinarily get to.
  • 202 63
 So glad you mentioned trail wear and tear - the extra weight with bigger, (often DH) tyres are wrecking trails. I've seen it happening within months how previously flowy trails I've ridden for 10+ years are suddenly full of holes and chopped up like motorbikes have been on them. For riders with impaired ability they are great but I can't respect them for the average joe looking for cheap (lazy) thrills. (Downvote away...)
  • 41 4
 @cotic-bikes: you're not wrong about strava, we made a trail in my local forest last year (with permission), me and a few mates rode it, nobody else knew, but because we had used strava to map our rides, it puts down a heat map, which i dont even think you can turn off?, you couldnt even see the entrance to this trail from a fire road, but needless to say, a few months later, the trail was now just a huge rut inbetween the trees, have been back and knocked it in because the land owner was upset with it.
  • 71 4
 @MartyMcfly2810: Yup, and Strava just wash their hands of it. Working with Ride Sheffield we tried to get segments and mapped trails pulled down due to their sensitivity and/or access situation and they just completely stonewalled us. Mealy mouthing about "we're just a tech company" etc. I'll get off my soapbox now.
  • 140 24
 As a former eMTB apologist, Banshee spoke the most sense here. I've since realised that even though the impact on trails is minimal, and they're not as bad as people say they are in terms of the damage they do to the ground, fitting lithium batteries and big disposable motors to bikes built to play on is a ludicrous environmental direction to take the market in. There's definitely a place for e bikes where they replace cars, but not eMTBs.
  • 10 5
 More e's in the name than most brands.
  • 106 80
 @Tuckshop: How do you compensate for a 114kg (18st) guy on a 15kg enduro bike and a 75kg man on a 25kg bike? Trail wear is due to a lot of different parameters and also a lot of newbies riding without the correct skill set and skidding everywhere. Blaming "heavy" ebikes is incorrect and an easy target. Remember, there's a lot of ebikes out there that weigh under 19kg so blaming them is a non starter.
  • 16 5
 Keith Scott: Amen!
  • 51 69
flag goroncy (Nov 29, 2021 at 2:32) (Below Threshold)
 @Tuckshop: Fully geared I weigh less with a heavy emtb than an average Brit or Yankee on a light bike. You guys are fat mastodons. Numbers don't lie.
  • 25 4
 @cotic-bikes: on the subject of riders getting to spots they'd not normally get to, I've seen a lot more (young) riders on expensive ebikes without helmets at the top of fairly gnarly off-piste trails you'd normally not find until you'd been riding a good few years.
  • 35 27
 @mickstwin: Of course there are going to be some non-e riders that cause more trail wear than ebike riders, but all else being equal, add a motor to someones bike along with the chunkier tyres ebikes can get away with due to assist on the climbs, and there will be more wear. That's the point here
  • 2 0
 @cotic-bikes: interesting
  • 159 9
 Weight is a minor issue, since 15 lb extra is an increase of well under 10% for most riders. The real factors:

• Distance. Most e-bike riders I know are using them to self-shuttle trails without shuttle access. They'll do three laps at maximum assist, compared to one lap on a human-powered bike. As such, this is already three times the wear & tear, even without other factors.
• Shear force. 200% boost is 3× the original shear force at the rear contact patch, and many bikes exceed 200% boost.

Trail erosion is a function of distance and shear force. When both increase several-fold, greater erosion is inevitable.


(For those who are about to comment that water does more damage than tires and feet: Yes, but only once tires and feet have created a high velocity channel down the middle of the trail, and the factors listed above hasten the formation of this channel.)
  • 9 1
 @GrandMasterOrge: At least they are usually nice and warm in their puffa jackets and woolly hats though.
  • 2 1
 @lukeb: agreed.
  • 7 7
 @mickstwin: How do you compensate for that 114kg (18st) guy on an E-Bike?
  • 4 3
 @goroncy: Haha agreed. I only weigh 75kg personally but the averages don't lie
  • 4 3
 @MartyMcfly2810: seems like it could have been avoided by simply taking strava out of the equation…
  • 35 0
 Turn off heatmap! It’s in privacy settings…

www.pinkbike.com/photo/21715900
  • 8 0
 Monday “triggers”
  • 21 3
 Keith nailed it with his answers. Honest and includes the effects of manufactiring and use.
  • 4 1
 @pargolf8: i dont use it now for this reason. but it was too late at the time, never even knew it was a feature until about 6 months after...
  • 18 2
 @R-M-R: I think this post deserves some special distinction which would allow everyone to reference it when attempting to make sense of the impact ebikes have on trail systems. It's succinct, clear, informative.
  • 19 0
 @J4m3z420: or just ride your bike and not feel the need to upload everything you do! Works better than turning off heat maps
  • 2 1
 @mickstwin:
You are doing math wrong.. it is adding 25kg(or lets say 10kg difference) to the average rider weight.
  • 10 43
flag stumphumper92 (Nov 29, 2021 at 6:27) (Below Threshold)
 @Tuckshop: Well good thing no one cares what you respect or don't. Get over it - ebikes are here to stay
  • 7 3
 @Tuckshop: I’d argue the weight has less to do with it than the increased traffic, and that of lower-average-skill riders coming through. Weight might be a bigger factor in that the average ebiker is a measure heavier than the average regular bike rider.
  • 2 1
 @lukeb: Beer for you too! Wink
  • 5 0
 @MartyMcfly2810: you can turn heat maps off. It’s in the privacy controls setting. It’s also a new feature.
  • 2 2
 @Tuckshop: Think I'd rather upvote you sir.
  • 14 7
 @stumphumper92: Our like/dislike ratios might beg to differ - there are a lot of people who do seem to care about trail preservation. Enjoy your donuts.
  • 10 5
 @mickstwin: it's not just the weight causing the problems though is it, the gen4 Bosch CX motor puts out the same peak torque as a 2004 Volkswagen Lupo.
  • 142 6
 "I don’t like the idea of unnecessarily introducing the pollution inherent in batteries and consumed power where they simply aren’t required by most people."

This is 100% my "get erf ma lawn" opinion of ebikes. It feels so backwards.

In every other instance, electric transportation is done with goals towards sustainability. You build ebikes for commuting and it frees people from the vehicle. You add electric motors to cars and it allows for more sustainable energy production. Even electric scooters open up longer sidewalk commutes to people who would otherwise likely be driving.

But ebikes are the opposite of this progess. We already have a sustainable, zero-emission (when in use) way to access the backcountry and it's called the mountain bike.

I get it that in some cases it is a great thing, allowing older people or otherwise disadvantaged folks to access the outdoors in a way that would otherwide not be available. But that's not the scenario that is driving ebike adoption for the large part. In reality, it is normal, healthy adults replacing a more sustainable technology (the mountain bike) with a less sustainable one (the ebike). So now, all of a sudden, emissions are a part of riding a bike and we get to fill the ground with more and more discarded lithium cells.

And that's not even getting into the impact on trails, maintenance, and environmental sustainability.

We're going in the wrong direction.
  • 19 54
flag Upundu (Nov 29, 2021 at 8:36) (Below Threshold)
 All these people out there talking about the environmental impact of ebikes and greenwashing are probably out there driving internal combustion engine cars without a second thought
  • 59 11
 @lukeb:

"There's definitely a place for e bikes where they replace cars, but not eMTBs."

Absolutely.
  • 5 2
 @Upundu: "probably"
  • 21 3
 @Tuckshop: I think the increased trail wear is not due to heavy emtbs but due to a huge increase in trail usage. There are just way more people out riding now, many of whom are new to the sport and don’t know not to skid
  • 8 0
 @cotic-bikes:

Well there's a simple solution in not using strava when riding these things. You are asking a lot from strava to moderate your own or individual's activities. I don't see how it is in their interest or even practical when you consider the global scale. Also couldn't someone lobby to remove stuff that they don't like but is legit? How does strava square that circle?
  • 48 1
 @Upundu:

You're not wrong that people are driving cars. But we also have cities and infrastructure built around the automobile and lots of times people have no choice. Demanding better and being stuck living in the world that currently exists are not mutually exclusive ideas.

I'm certain a second thought is given. Otherwise people in car-centric cities wouldn't be demanding better public transit and cycle infrastructure at such a high level.

This is always the 'what about' that comes out when people care about the environment. "Well you drive, don't you?" Sure. A lot of us live in North America where cities are connected exclusively via the automobile and you cannot access areas by foot or by bike or by transit. Operating in the world in which you live does not mean you can't work towards improving it.
  • 14 3
 @overconfident: When I look at extra wear from ebikes I usually ignore the weight factor. For me it is purely trail use. If you would normally ride 1 loop on your bike but now an do 2 laps on an ebike that is 100% more use. The argument has always been that a fit rider could do more laps and but I base it on how many extra laps an ebike does.
  • 18 8
 @shlotch: E-MTBs have in many places reduced shuttling by truck, as well as car/truck miles driven to trailheads. So I'd say it's not all in the wrong direction.
  • 13 4
 @mickstwin: ebikes bump the weight up almost every time. The weight combined with easy access to a couple hundred watts of power can accelerate trail erosion. On a pedal bike, the difficulty of putting down power leads riders to get smoother with their inputs.

Take away that challenge and you have riders adding some throttle at the wrong times. This can be bad for their health, but also lead to trail degradation.
  • 24 3
 @Tuckshop: and now people are finally seeing what us trail builders/maintenance folks noticed straight away…
  • 36 22
 @shlotch: I think the hypocrisy of people complaining about environmental impacts of eMTB, and simultaneously driving hours each way to trailheads/bike parks, or flying out to biking holidays to Arizona or Utah or BC deserves to be highlighted. How much damage does a 500 Wh battery do vs. a year of driving to the trails, or a couple destination holidays? Keeping in mind that the eMTB can potentially replace some of those car trips or shuttle days. Or say, someone getting an eMTB instead of a dirtbike. I personally find the environmental argument pretty weak, for a hobby that has no practical purpose other than sharing the stoke in the woods.
  • 35 9
 @Upundu: You wrote: "All these people out there talking about the environmental impact of ebikes and greenwashing are probably out there driving internal combustion engine cars without a second thought"

We're all hypocrites, man. This isn't the devastating takedown you think it is.

No one needs to go out and buy an electric car, or rid themselves of a car entirely, in order to be able to hold an opinion about the environmental impacts of things.

This is false equivocation, and frankly, a really dumb take.
  • 5 3
 @shlotch: I'd upvote this ten times if I could.
  • 1 0
 @MartyMcfly2810: The heatmap shows 'heat' made by aggregated, public activities over the last year.
The heatmap is updated monthly.
Activity that athletes mark as private is not visible.
Athletes may opt out by updating their privacy settings.
Areas with very little activity may not show any 'heat.'
  • 4 0
 @oldsam: We tried lobbying them. If they had a mechanism whereby you could flag a segment or part of a heatmap as inappropriate or illegal rather than just becuase you think someone's cheated and they would actually act on that, that would work. I'm not asking them to police it, but I'm asking them to take responsibility for taking down irresponsible or illiegal usage. The don't and they won't.
  • 11 0
 @cotic-bikes: same here we have a good sized trail system that involves a private landowner and they do not want public maps available, Strava was ZERO HELP. I'm no tech guru, but it would be pretty easy for Strave to geo-fence the area. In the meantime we just keep marking segments manually to have them pulled down. Sigh. To hell with Strava and their ilk.
  • 12 4
 @mickstwin: more laps = more erosion. Blaming ebikes is very much a starter and IMO a finisher.
  • 4 3
 I am not an ebike fan at this moment but do see it as an option as i get older- hopefully wont need it. I have had a few bad experiences with ebikes already, one guy was whipping shitties on the trail. The bike looked more like a scooter than a bike. Another guy didnt know what to do because he got himself into a situation that the bike took him into, battery went dead and he couldnt ride out. He was walking it down. I think we are on the brink of needing some regulations on what is exactly an ebike versus electric scooter. I don't like the aspect of using a throttle as a deciding point because I am assuming there will be a throttle on ebikes soon, maybe not, just my opinion. We will see where this all goes.
  • 11 0
 @flatlandhaala: ive largely ignored most replies to this, but now i really gotta ask, what is "whipping shitties" and why does it make me laugh so much
  • 1 0
 @flatlandhaala: There are different classes of e-bikes. Most of what is discussed I think is a Class 1 bike - no throttle. Some folks buy the other classes which may go faster and cause more damage. Trail regulation and enforcement are a big issue in this arena.
www.wired.com/story/guide-to-ebike-classes
  • 9 17
flag mr-epic-3 (Nov 29, 2021 at 10:27) (Below Threshold)
 Sorry, but the reality is if you own any Road, MTB or eMTB and use it for fun or exercise you are not environment friendly, all of the materials that go into manufacturing a bike didn't do the Earth any goodFrown
  • 13 20
flag Pinemtn (Nov 29, 2021 at 10:37) (Below Threshold)
 Sounds like y’all are more interested in environmentalism than actually mountain biking. Maybe give up the bikes and become an advocate for environmentalism?
  • 5 8
 Great response! Like what kind of idiot rides their bikes on trails. Get your lap in and leave the terrain in tact for the next rider! NO MORE EROSION!
  • 4 1
 @MartyMcfly2810: Spinning in circles full throttle Smile
  • 2 2
 @Pinemtn: I wasn't going to take the avenue of environmentalism because i get the issue that all bikes create issues with the environment. I am okay with ebikes sharing the trails but there needs to be a limit, I just don't know that I have seen a limit made yet anywhere where i ride.
  • 13 12
 If people are really that worried out the impact on the environment and trail erosion, stop riding and buying mountain bikes.
  • 7 5
 Banshee's Legend is also a motor assisted bike, it just happens that the motor is sold separately. There are some shuttle trails I can get to the top of faster on the ebike than in the car, making it wildly more efficient than my DH bike was
  • 17 6
 @mickstwin: They allow riders to access trails that’s beyond their ability and fitness levels. It’s bad enough skidding over catch berms and braiding trails on a regular mountain bike but these jokers are all opting to be out of their depths on 70lbs ebikes with plus tyres and instead of quitting while they’re ahead they’re doing multiple runs on tracks they can’t ride on bikes they can’t hop and causing devastation while they’re at it. It’s not just a case of looking at it in black and white by claiming there’s not much difference in weight because they’re is. A heavier bike is much harder to ride and they’re usually not always ridden by older less experienced riders.
  • 15 2
 Volunteer trail builder here. In my experience weight and tire size have little to do with bike related erosion.
The main causes are braking, either too much or not enough control.
Riding in conditions that increase damage to a given soil type. Too wet/dry..
The increased overall trail use is a valid concern.
  • 8 0
 @R-M-R:E-mtbs certainly = more kms. I wonder though, how much more wear compared to the growth that is happening on these trails anyway.

I'd also venture a guess that when most people complain about e-mtbs having more impact on trail wear, they are thinking about down trails. But the shear forces you are talking about are not really happening there. That would more likely be on up trails, or at least when folks hammer in boost mode in a small number of places where that can happen. I wonder whether e-mtbs, used properly, really have any real, measurable impact on trail erosion. And that could probably be said about regular pedal bikes too.
  • 4 2
 @GrandMasterOrge: fully agree, I saw a couple of guys on e bikes yesterday - trying to ride steep - staggered that they didn’t have helmets
  • 11 2
 @robcartwheel: Yes, the shear forces I was referring to are primarily on the uphills. That's why I referenced the boost factor.

The other factor is increased distance. X times the distance will cause X times the wear, even without the additional multiplier of shear force effects.

The recent growth of the sport is another multiplier. It is reasonable to assume:

• Some - probably most - of the e-bike adoption has been from existing riders, which isn't captured in the growth
• Most of the growth would've occurred with or without e-bikes (riders who started or increased their riding on human-powered bikes, plus those on e-bikes who still would've joined / increased without motor assist)
• Some of the growth occurred exclusively because of e-bikes (some new riders wouldn't have started mountain biking without the benefit of motors)
• All of these e-bike users are riding farther, faster, and/or more frequently than they would be if e-bikes were not available to them
  • 11 28
flag stumphumper92 (Nov 29, 2021 at 12:05) (Below Threshold)
 @Tuckshop: Ok congrats on your likes? Doesn't change the fact ebikes are not going anywhere no matter how much people want to cry about it. Get used to seeing more on the trails and enjoy your "trail wear" and gatekeeping.
  • 5 0
 Banshee, please make a 120 or 130 paradox with sliding dropouts. I would ride no other bike til the grave. Kudos on your well thought out and appreciable viewpoints.
  • 13 4
 @stumphumper92:
You may be right that e-bikes are here to stay, but it doesn't take away that he still made objectively accurate points.
As someone who is quick to turn on the c*ntometer when I disagree with someone, I'm even taken aback at the approach you're taking- it's pointlessly insulting.
  • 10 3
 @mickstwin: Everyone wants to blame someone. Thanks for calling out the obvious! I say we ban anyone with a combined bike/rider weight AND power output above exactly what I weigh and put out. That way, we can pretend we are being smart while I don't have to sacrifice anything. But have no fear, I am close to 195 lbs and put out some decent power, so many here are safely below the limit Wink Crap, maybe we just need to set a max footprint for bikes, using PSI and system weight to prevent anyone from putting more than their fair share of load on the dirt. OR we can work as a community to respect the trails, the land managers, and the nature we ride through. Practicing proper etiquette and riding responsibly is the best thing we can do for the sport.
  • 6 1
 @R-M-R: I think you're correct that ebikes cause both growth in ridership and increase in trail use. Whether that's a bad thing for the trails, though, depends entirely on the trail system.

If you're in a place where legally available trail miles are already tapped and the trail system can't grow, then that increase in use and ridership will lead to issues - user conflicts, more illegal building, erosion on over-used trails, what have you. Ultimately, that can endanger access for all riders. Bad.

If you're in a place where you're blessed with the opportunity to grow your trail system (i.e., the limiting factor is volunteer labor, rather than available land), then more riders coming into the sport, and people who used to sort of ride getting a second wind in their riding can very much lead to a more engaged community. And that, in turn, can grow the trail system for everyone.

And then there's the question whether a growing riding community can turn the former sort of place into the latter sort of place. If that were the case, that would be a huge win for all riders. In commuting, there's a bit of that sort of thing going on, where bike commuting was stagnating, so traffic planning didn't really get pressured to provide more opportunity for safe and enjoyable bike commuting. But now you've got lots of middle aged people buying ebikes and wanting to ride places all over town, so you've got them lobbying and exerting influence, plus you've got higher user numbers adding to the pressure, and all of a sudden traffic planners are responding and improving infrastructure. We know that virtuous cycle works in MTB as well (here in Bellingham, even before ebikes, we've had lots of growth, and the result has been more and more access, and as a result more and more trails). I'm hearing from friends in Germany that places that were completely locked out of being able to develop trails in the woods all of a sudden are becoming more open because of how freaking popular eMTBs are over there, giving the riding community critical mass.
  • 8 5
 @shlotch: I hope anyone taking that position isn't riding carbon and doesn't have more than one bike. Also, we better check to see that their car is an approved green vehicle Wink
  • 4 6
 @SprSonik: There may be more wisdom than you realize in your jokes!

My position on how to categorize bikes for trail access uses "human vs. non-human" as the most basic division.

Human: Fully human-powered (unassisted) or assisted bikes that meet both of the following criteria:

• More human than machine: ≤100% assist.
• Does not exceed human capabilities: maximum combined output less than or equal to the maximum human output, which we could model after that of a World Champion or similar. Seems more than fair to allow every rider to equal the fittest human on the planet. No speed limit on the assist would be required.

Human and human-comparable bikes would be allowed anywhere bikes are allowed, which would make it easier to group us with other human users (ex. hikers).

Non-human bikes and other non-human trail users (motorcycles, ATVs, horses, etc.) may also be allowed or may be subject to restrictions, at the discretion of whomever sets the policy for the trails in question.
  • 16 4
 @cotic-bikes: Strava needs to go away for MTB....you want to race? go faqn race, no GPS 3 devices pick the best lap and cherry post BS....burns me up if you cant tell.
  • 7 3
 @g-42: Yes, the questions of whether it's good or bad to have growth (via any type of bike) and/or increased use of e-bikes are larger than the issue of erosion. Some enjoyable trails in my area have become overgrown due to increased rainfall and limited use, in which case increased use could save the trails (in the absence of dedicated trail maintenance).

Personally, my biggest concern is over collisions. For example, most of my local trails are two-way. Currently, they're just barely safe at the upper end of speeds of descending riders vs. unassisted climbing riders. An assisted climbing rider may be traveling at two to three times the unassisted speed, which could easily push the closing speeds between riders into an unsafe range. If we choose to solve this by enforcing the 30+ year old requirement for descending riders to be able to avoid climbers, the faster the climbers go, the more the descenders must limit their speed to accommodate. Conceivably, the climbers could end up going faster than the descenders, which is clearly not how the policy was meant to work.

Another problem arises on undulating terrain. Sections of my local trails change from uphill to downhill in intervals as short as 10 m. Heavily assisted bikes can exceed 30 km/h in both directions, giving a closing speed of 60 km/h with rapidly changing statuses of "climber" and "descender". Even if such speeds were manageable, existing right-of-way policies did not envision the current situation and are impractical.

I feel one-way trails - or segments, at least - are the best solution for busy areas and/or trail segments that could create dangerous situations.
  • 17 10
 @Tuckshop: this! Me and a friend build and maintain a trail here in so cal. Built it in 2011 and it has a steep 3 mile fire road climb to the top, which kept it honest as far as how often it was ridden. All good until about a year ago when the e mtbs showed up. Now dudes taking laps on 50 lbs+ E bikes is destroying it. Maintenance is difficult with lack of rain and bad access.
E bikers seem to rape and pillage then move on the the next trail.
  • 12 9
 “kudos to Banshee” - the only thing I was thinking after reading the Banshee interview, cant agree more.
  • 4 10
flag thenotoriousmic (Nov 29, 2021 at 14:00) (Below Threshold)
 @youseeus: yeah they ride for 6 months and then move on to another sport. Don’t worry the trails won’t be infested with boomers forever.
  • 11 22
flag SterlingArcher (Nov 29, 2021 at 14:41) (Below Threshold)
 Lol ten bucks says Banshee goes under in less than two years
  • 6 8
 @R-M-R: you gonna set up speed traps and pay trail "enforcers" to monitor when some girl goes riding by on her Juliana with assist going 3-5mph over the posted limit? then what, issue her a citation? ummm dude you need to pick a new hobby. go play with legos or something.
  • 4 7
 @Pinemtn: nah let these idiots dig their own graves
  • 8 8
 "It's not black and white of course, you may still get away with it if you make other reasonable life choices."

LMAO are you really making the argument if you buy enough carbon offset vouchers you "get away with it". If so f*ckING LOL, I can't even pretend to play nice you all live in a different cognitive reality than me. If you hate ebikes fine, but please don't you dare hate them for purely ecological reasons while you ride a full suspension mtb full of all sorts of noxious fluids that need to be deposed of seasonally, let alone the frame materials conversation. Funny the more yall squeel about the environment and how Ebikes are a nail in the coffin, the more i think about how grossly "unsustainable" all forms of cycling are.
  • 6 6
 @pbfan08: don’t entertain the uneducated
  • 6 10
flag Pinemtn (Nov 29, 2021 at 15:48) (Below Threshold)
 @pbfan08: they are just a bunch of self righteous fools, who lack a belief in a higher diety, so they must project their "virtue" upon the masses in the form of cooperate media messaging using key words such as "climate change" and "eco friendliness" and sanctimoniously preach about how they ride "human" powered bikes
  • 5 1
 @catweasel:
not to mention narrower tires tear and cut up trails much faster that wider treads..
  • 13 0
 @thenotoriousmic: i just turned 60 and i don't ride an ebike but get passed on my local trails by young uns half my age on ebikes, you call them boomers too?
  • 5 4
 @Katbox: @Katbox: by that logic we should ban 50 tooth cogs and small chainrings. Nevermind you're measuring the torque at the motor and not the wheels in 1st gear...
  • 8 8
 @R-M-R: sheer force does not have any impact on trail wear unless there is tire slippage, 3x, 50x, 10000x... when the tire is not slipping there is ZERO difference. The only valid point you made here was that people might ride the same trail multiple times instead of once. I don't want to shoot down your point because I mostly agree with your sentiment. But I would argue that the average rider on a regular bike in Bellingham does about 100 times the destruction to trails than a middle aged guy on an E-bike in California.
  • 5 5
 @sonuvagun: And it's false information, Sheer forces only cause trail damage in the event of tire slippage... which is why it's poor etiquette to skid up trails under braking.
  • 11 5
 @R-M-R: I agree..
that is one point no one can deny as far as ebikes don't do any more damage to trails.
It's pretty simple, if rider A rides 10 miles on a pedal bike, then rider B rides 20 miles on his ebike, your trails are going to have TWICE the erosion on them.
Not to mention they do slightly more damage to begin with.

how does an ebiker defend that?
  • 10 3
 @nzandyb: also that crowd, is literally summing up miniscule damage that can be done in literally 30min of a hard rain. Its not that ebike proponents are "encouraging trail damage" by any means. We're just pointing out the utter silliness of over reacting to ecological concerns(which are largely made up and have no scientific data to back them) while our entire hobby is bad for the environment, full stop. E-bikes will only encourage more sustainable trail design, change my mind.
  • 8 3
 @shlotch: I’ve raced motocross most of my life. Then I got my two sons racing. At the peak of our racing a few years ago we had a fully maintained practice track using tractors, dozers, etc. and we each had 2 bikes. I changed the oil every 5 hours, went through tons of parts, and we traveled a lot with a big trailer. You get the idea. Due to injuries and the insane time commitment, we have fully switched to MTB. This was a gradual process that started with park riding over the summer. Now we have regular bikes that we primarily ride and e bikes that we occasionally ride, mostly in our backyard on our own jump trails. I’m pretty new to pinkbike, but find myself on here all the time now. I’ve been impressed with the overall concern about environmental issues on here. E bikes might feel like the “wrong” direction relative to the small pinkbike universe of existing riders, but they have been a good direction for my family, not just environmentally, and there are likely others out there. E bikes are pulling new people into bike riding and maybe that riding has less of an impact than what they were doing before.
  • 1 0
 @txcx166: THIS. To make it more relatable to the MTB audience. Look at Ratboy, dude gave up a WC racing career over vauge "green ecological concerns". Which may have been a scapegoat, IDK the lad, but he had been racing professionally since 14/16 so maybe he was just tired of it. I get that, it happens with literally any proffession. But quitting cause of ecological concerns, while he is still fully well riding multiple sponsor provided bikes, and prolly riding motos for fun occasionally(as the person im responding to breaks down very well). His whole "retirement story" seems a bit silly. Like give up your cannondale sponsorship or give us the real story?
  • 1 0
 @R-M-R: pack on muscle. The more you look like a wall the more people will try to avoid hitting you. Make a tree look like a softer hit and everything will be alright.
  • 4 0
 @Pinemtn: It seems you've misinterpreted me. I want people to go as fast as they can. My point is to find ways to enable that to happen safely, which is why I favour one-way trails, rather than speed restrictions or impractical right-of-way rules.
  • 2 1
 And @Pinemtn brings religion into it for the win!! FINISH HIM!!!!

I'll just leave this here, praying to my higher diety for an enforcer of this sort to arrive in the mtb world, mostly kidding LOL

www.reddit.com/r/surfing/comments/qptxz6/consequences_foiled_at_fort_point
  • 3 0
 @thenotoriousmic: Not boomers tho. Dudes I’m seeing are late 20s 30s. Many are out of shape, but not old.
  • 6 1
 @catweasel: Couldn't agree more. Almost every video posted has someone tearing down a hill full tilt with the rear tire locked up going side to side. It won't be any different on a e-bike either. I also help a lot with trail building, maintenance and grooming in the winter. When they are used, they deteriorate over time and need fixing up. How many out of all the commentators actually lift a finger helping out with trail maintenance. When I ride solo, I'm always stopping to do some trail work along the way.
I'll be 65 next year, have had 3 AC separations, both Supraspinatus severed and will need a knee replacement soon, but don't let that stop me. I ride all year until the snow flies and switch to fat bikes for 4-1/2 months. All the drivel about the environment is a crock. How many of you drive large pickup trucks or SUV's to go fetch your beer at the corner store. I'll be getting an e-bike next year to continue riding, and I won't be tearing up the trails any more than I do now, except perhaps putting in more km. I couldn't care less why others might consider them. Ride, relax and have a beer when done and enjoy life.
  • 1 0
 More wear and more people running trails, will generate more people working for trail centers, more mechanics will be around, maybe some sort of battery trade center too. There is a silver lining in this trains of ideas. Better than the wild west that it is right now.
  • 1 0
 @goroncy: hahaha Canadians, too!! Fat mastodons! Lol
  • 1 0
 @shlotch: 100% agree with your assessment.
  • 1 0
 @pbfan08: I really dont believe carbon offset vouchers classify as "reasonable life choices". It's not about me, I'm No Saint But I dont even buy carbon.

Try to do as many reasonable life choices as possible e.g.
-Fly 0-1 times a year
-Keep house temp low and electricity consumption down, choosing renewable supply
-eat more veg/vegan
-consume less, buy stuff that can be maintained and lasts, with lower LCA impact where you can choose eg question of you need
Carbon or batteries. And if you do choose as clean and/or recyclable as you can (e.g.Japanese Toray over Chinese carbon)

Everyone can do something, most people can do more, me included.

Btw I qualify for eMTB due to a post TBI fatigue, but I Still choose not to as long as I can. Hopefully by the timeI may need it it's all recyclable and more cleanly produced.

Peace
  • 1 9
flag thenotoriousmic (Nov 30, 2021 at 2:30) (Below Threshold)
 @p0rtal00: regardless of age, if you ride a boomer scooter then by very definition you’re a boomer and vice versa.
  • 1 1
 @pbfan08: he retired because he didn’t want to race world cups anymore, he felt like he couldn’t give it 100% and didn’t want to take the risks that came with racing world cups. I don’t know where your getting this environment shit from. He hasn’t retired just from racing world cups.
  • 3 1
 @nzandyb: I'm not sure what your point is (that's not necessarily your fault), or where you think what R-M-R shared false information. I think you are forgetting people don't ride with perfect form. Ebikers tend to be worse riders from what I've seen.

Was trail damage as much of an issue before ebikes? No.

I see things getting to a point where trail access is going to cost money because maintaining them will become too costly.
  • 3 0
 @tttyyler: the legend isn't motor assisted mate
  • 1 0
 @ChezzyDirt: I totally agree.
  • 2 1
 @thenotoriousmic: keep telling yourself that
  • 1 0
 @SterlingArcher: He did loads of interviews at the time explaining why he wasn’t racing world cups and it wasn’t to do with the environment.
  • 1 0
 @thenotoriousmic: I mean that e first post
  • 2 0
 @withdignityifnotalacrity: how is this for hypocrisy I use power to add resistance to practice pedaling my bike to make my self better at pedaling my non-ebike.

Indoor trainer for the win. It's like the worst off all sustainability arguments.
  • 5 5
 @sonuvagun: My point is that RMR posited that the magnitude of sheer force contributes to trail damage. I rebutted that sheer forces are irrelevant in all situations, and that the tire losing traction (which incidentally, when was the last time you saw an e-bike throwing roost?) is the predominant factor in unnecessary trail damage. Therefore claiming that the increased torque of E-bikes causes trail damage can be considered false. E-bikes are heavier so it's undeniable that they must cause slightly more trail wear than a regular bike, but the idea that they destroy trails exponentially more than a regular bike is simply ridiculous.
  • 3 0
 @goroncy: unpopular but true.

When I worked in shops alot of schlubby upper middle aged men buying (alot of store financing) 10kusd regular and E-bikes to make them faster.

Getting under a barbell, doing some actual cardio plus eating well would make them faster than any SWorks or slash 9.9 ever could.

For me, I made my mind up when a dad and his kid were wondering where they would charge their batteries on a long ride in moab...what are you doing out here if you can finish the ride under your own power?

That and watching another father and son ride up the landings of steep drops...idiots
  • 1 0
 @nzandyb: Thanks for the response. I "think" I get what you mean. However, maybe I don't cause the way I see it (and I could be wrong), if one brakes hard then that causes the tire to lose traction. But isn't that skidding a sheer force (this isn't me trying to prove a point, I'm simply presently uncertain if I even understand what a sheer force is)? Ebikers can brake hard whenever and just crank out a few turns to regain any lost momentum.

It wouldn't be the first or last time I'm wrong about anything but from what I've seen of ebikers, they tend to exhibit less finesse, but rather ride with a smash and grab style - maybe ebikers just don't pay as much of a penalty for poor habits and so don't have to learn as fast.

Anyhow, I don't mean to move the goalposts, I just typed that shit and not realized it's a bit off-topic.
  • 2 0
 @MartyMcfly2810: You can turn off the Heat Map in Strava and set your rides to private. So no one else can see where you are riding. But sadly it's now too late. E-bikes have killed the idea of the Strava Segment. It's not Strava's fault though. If not Strava then Komoot or Garmin or someone else.
  • 2 0
 @goroncy: I up voted this cos it's funny, some people have no sense of humour. Although you seem to be German which makes the irony even funnier.
  • 5 1
 @nzandyb: Shear force is the major factor in erosion.

1. Trail erosion does occur on climbs. If you don't believe it's shear forces because the wheels aren't spinning like a car doing a burnout, then what do you propose causes the observed erosion?

2. Why do we see almost zero erosion on flat ground, but lots of erosion on steeper ground?

As I said, a tire doesn't have to be spinning wildly. There is always some shear slippage, even when it's as small as a heavily loaded lug deforming and dragging a lightly loaded neighbour lug. Lugs flex, casings flex, and micro-slippage occurs as they do so.

Once again: if you don't believe it's related to shear, I invite you to propose an alternate explanation for how trail erosion occurs.
  • 1 0
 @MartyMcfly2810: you can put that privacy circle onto your rides? Maybe that works? Not sure it works for a place that has no address though....
  • 3 1
 @nzandyb: Below is additional information that may aid in understanding.

To clarify, shear force is the dominant factor in erosion of dry, compacted trails. This refers to shear both parallel and perpendicular to the direction of travel, and the related micro- or macro-slippage. Obviously, it's a different story on muddy or unconsolidated surfaces; these are much more vulnerable and are damaged by displacement and pumping, which is why it's best practice for trail management to avoid riding in such conditions.

I recommend, as your best reference:

Applying Geomorphic Principles in the Design of Mountain Biking Singletracks: Conceptual Analysis and Mathematical Modeling – Land, Basel, 2020.
www.proquest.com/docview/2460877899

Also relevant:

Erosional Imapct of Hikers, Horses, Off-Road Bicycles, and Motorcycles on Mountain Trails – Joseph Paul Seney, 1991.
scholarworks.montana.edu/xmlui/bitstream/handle/1/6831/31762100885266.pdf

Erosional Impact of Hikers, Horses, Motorcycles, and Off-Road Bicycles on Mountain Trails in Montana – Wilson & Seney, 1994.
www.researchgate.net/publication/268297897_Erosional_Impact_of_Hikers_Horses_Motorcycles_and_Off-Road_Bicycles_on_Mountain_Trails_in_Montana_Authors

Managing Degraded Off-Highway Vehicle Trails in Wet, Unstable, and Sensitive Environments – United States Forest Service, 2002. (Note: Primarily refers to wet conditions.)
www.fs.fed.us/t-d/pubs/htmlpubs/htm02232821/index.htm
  • 2 0
 @mickstwin: it’s very much a starter. 3-4 years ago in my local area an e-bike was incredibly rare. Maybe 1 in 50 at best. 115kg riders were also equally rare. So we had something like 2-3% of riders with a total system weight of rider and bike at 125kg +.
E bikes easily now account for 20 - 30% of bikes on my local trails, while heavyset riders on enduro bikes are still very rare, and there are even more heavyset riders on those ebikes as fitness is less of a barrier. These riders are all putting in twice as many laps. There is easily a 60-70% increase of heavy e-traffic of 125kg + riders down our local trails and they are suffering badly for it.
  • 1 0
 @spinzillathespacelizard: you faster up to 16mh?
  • 1 0
 @cotic-bikes: But then who is the arbitor of what is illegal or irresponsible? The only scalable and fair way to manage the problem is to either not record on those trails or mark those activities private.
  • 1 0
 @Ososmash: Heh, the indoor trainer should be powering your house bro!
  • 5 3
 @sonuvagun: Cuz all you people do is whine about ebikes it is so exhausting.. just dont read the articles and leave the hate at the door. It's really not that hard. People just always want a reason to complain about something.
  • 3 1
 The shipping industry is by far the biggest polluter. We should be riding bikes made in our home country if we're gonna act like we care about climate change.
The weight thing is just comical. My eeb weighs 16lbs more than my analog, so I guess we should just ban people who weigh 190lbs+ from the trail network. Same with the watts, I put out what an XC racer does on the ups, so XC racers should be banned from trail networks too.
"At Banshee we are purists, and like to ‘earn our turns’." Hope you guys have never ridden a shuttle truck or a chairlift then!
  • 2 0
 @piratetrails: what we need is boats with sails on them
  • 2 5
 @R-M-R: Trail erosion does occur on climbs, but it's because the tires ARE spinning like a car doing a burnout, the difference being it's only for a split second when a rider is able to apply maximum torque (ie when the crank is perpendicular to gravity).

Tire slippage on climbs, braking on descents, hard cornering, ALL include 'Macro slippage' (I'm coining that term right now). The tire loses traction (for a split second or more) and the structure of the substrate is broken (rocks and dirt are kicked up)... this is erosion.

It's plausible that the consistency of torque provided by an E-Bike motor actually REDUCES the macro slippage I'm referring to. This is incredibly easy to visualize: simply think about how much tire slippage you get on a gravel climb when seated vs when out of the saddle... an E-bike inarguably reduces the requirement of a rider to be out of the saddle 'mashing' on the pedals on moderately steep climbs.

In conclusion, Shear force in and of itself has nothing to do with erosion. If the shear force exceeds a critical value then NOW we have tire slippage, and erosion occurs. If you still don't understand this concept I invite you to go get piece of sandpaper and hold it REALLY hard against a piece of wood, now (without allowing the sandpaper to 'slip' against the wood) apply as much shear force as you possibly can. According to your erosion theory simply applying this shear force should somehow make the wood start to disintegrate... But that's ridiculous, because it's clear that the sandpaper slipping across the wood with even gentle force will have infinitely more impact than all the shear force you can muster (without slippage. You follow?
  • 2 2
 @nzandyb: I follow, and I disagree. I also encourage you to read the links I provided, which I can see you haven't done. People have earned degrees on this topic and they're the ones that led to my opinions on shear forces. The first link is particularly relevant.

Yes, macro-slippage occasionally occurs and causes a high rate of erosion when it does. It is not the only mechanism, though.

If erosion results only from macro-slippage, we would see essentially zero erosion from hikers, yet we see approximately the same from hikers as from bikers.

Shear forces create both micro-slippage (lug squirm and casing flex) and macro-slippage (even a few millimeters counts). More power makes both of these more likely to occur and increases the extent of each. Even an infinitely sensitive motor could do nothing to mitigate micro-slippage, and no real motor reacts quickly enough to control macro-slippage on the scale of several millimeters.

In your sandpaper analogy, if you attached the sandpaper to a tire and rode over the workpiece, the micro-slippage (again, that's unavoidable lug squirm and casing flex) would eventually produce wear on the workpiece. It would also produce more frequent, and usually larger, macro-slippage.
  • 1 6
flag nzandyb (Dec 1, 2021 at 12:36) (Below Threshold)
 @R-M-R: I read all your references and the magnitude of shear force is still NOT what causes erosion. perhaps you are under the mistaken impression that shear force and shearing are the same thing, they are NOT, and none of your references support that notion. Shearing force can approach infinity with ZERO shearing occurring.

I'd refer you to your last reference: "The shearing action destroys soil structure by crushing soil peds (natural soil aggregates) and collapsing voids. Shearing is most likely to occur on finely textured soils under moist to saturated conditions. It is uncommon in coarse soils." note that it specifically states the 'shearing action', and not the shearing forces.

Secondly please refer to your first reference: "Particle aggregation increase up to a threshold determined by the soil shearing strength", what this means is that there is 'critical point' at which shearing FORCES actually begin to shear the substrate, if this is not exceeded then shearing does not occur.

To conclude higher shearing forces (caused by wheel torque) can induce shearing, but erosion will only occur when this forces is actually translated to shearing... In the context of bicycle tires you can read shearing as WHEEL SLIPPAGE.

I'm also utterly confused why you went to all that trouble to come to the conclusion that the point you were trying to make only really applied to dry, compacted soils... does this sound like the kind of trail that anybody is overly concerned about E-bikes on?
  • 2 1
 @stumphumper92: Your reading comprehension is utter sh*t as are basic processing skills. People are not complaining about ebikes. People are complaining about what they perceive as damage done to trails due to ebike use. But what would you have people do when the see a problem, just be quiet about it? Alll you have to do Holmes is practice what you preach and shut up.
  • 4 3
 @nzandyb: Most riding is done on dry, compacted ground. That's certainly the case around here - maybe not as much on the coast, where you are. Our trails still erode in the dry, including on terrain where no one is spinning wheels.

Yes, there is a shear strength to soil that, when exceeded, causes bulk masses of soil to break loose. Obviously, we're not talking about landslides, but the tiny edges of lugs on tires, shoes, and hooves can cause abrasion of a surface due to micro-slippage. These tiny amounts of wear add up to cause erosion over time. It's true that a small number of users can cause rapid damage on wet ground, but that's not the only mechanism.

I think our conversation has run its course. Thanks for your participation.
  • 1 4
 @R-M-R: hmm, are you trying to give a lesson on what "shear force" actually is?

Honestly, I pictured shear force was related to torque until I browsed those sites you linked. Was schooled when I saw an illustration of a tire pushing down on the soil, and the soil under the tire displacing the soil down and out to the side of the tire, essentially forming a rut that looks like a heavy-vehicle's tire track.

Spreading weight out with a bigger contact patch, like with plus tires, helps to minimize that, but there's still the fact that more distance covered equates to more erosion.

Are you just baiting those who want to support their belief that emtb erosion isn't big enough to cause concern compared to other human-powered traffic, and low-key trolling the "believe the science (confirmation bias)" types?

I still remember you trying to explain cornering traction to me, using a bunch of motor vehicle concepts, but I forgot all of it... until I came upon some explanations about tire load sensitivity and how rubber isn't really a solid that follows traditional friction, and how it deforms to interlock with the fine micro texture of the ground for traction. Got the impression that it's better for the rubber to be as hard as possible while still being able to do this deforming ability.
  • 3 2
 @Varaxis: I was trying to counter his position that a vehicle applying 3× the force at the ground would not not produce greater trail erosion. It became clear the conversation wasn't going to go well when he began to suggest the 3× force vehicle may actually produce less erosion.

You're correct that wider tires may reduce trail damage. My opinion is the trend toward wider off-road tires hasn't yet reached the optimum width and has been held back by sub-optimal casings and insufficient aspect ratios. The optimum tire width has more to do with managing impacts than climbing traction, so we won't see the bikes with 3× the force on tires 3× as wide.

You're also correct that "wagon wheel" ruts are mostly due to lateral displacement of material, but this form of erosion is minor, compared to ruts on steep slopes. In particular, wagon wheels are not powered, therefore produce extremely low shear force along the line of travel.

Even if someone doesn't believe in shear forces and we assume a vehicle applying 3× the force at the ground somehow produces no more erosion per unit of distance, you and I clearly agree e-bikes cover more distance. From a policy standpoint, the physics of the erosion is of little importance; it only matters to understand the impacts of various activities. The discussion could have further nuance by considering restrictions on activities during certain conditions, such as wet weather or limiting tire width on snow-covered trails.

I am not saying this to argue against e-bikes, only describing well-known facts that influence land use policies.
  • 1 2
 @R-M-R: I can sort of see the wisdom behind the counterpoint though.

Basing your predictions on emtbs by applying some straight multiplier to power/torque... that's like using BMI to judge someone. Oversimplifying like that just attracts argument.

You're totally disregarding the software on the motors which ramp up the power to make riding feel natural. I wouldn't dismiss arguments suggesting that it even smooths power output, which contributes to the increased ease of riding.

The counterarguments are trying to suggest that adding sudden and unevenly/unsmoothly applied power and torque from accelerating from a very low speed, like a novice hammering in a granny gear, causes more wear compared to accelerating from a higher rolling speed.

A less powerful person getting tripped up by "technical" features on a climb will be eroding it more with their tires spinning out than someone powerful who is rolling up it with more ease (with momentum making trivial work of the tech features). The less powerful person is more likely to weave their way around uphill obstacles and widen the trail. The smoother rider erodes trail less, therefore can go more distance before matching the damage caused by stereotypical noobville usage. And as you say, slopes are the more sensitive to erosion, due to how water flows down it.

It would be like trying to argue that a fit and powerful trail runner does less erosion than a less fit and less powerful hiker. I would not dismiss the possibility that the fit trail runner does overall less erosion, esp if the hiker is in boots, despite the trail runner likely doing more distance. If I ignore the whole "light-footed vs heavy-footed" perspective, I'd still be optimistic about the trail runner, depending on how they maintain their speed, minimizing braking, unnecessary direction change, and quick accelerations.

Erosion on flat ground would be minimized when the rider is riding at the "flow speed" (the trail's natural speed limit). The flow speed is characterized by the amount of speed that would need the least amount of braking and least amount of quick acceleration to ride comfortably and efficiently. Emtbs have very limited battery life, so riding efficiently is encouraged. Are you presuming that emtbers would be going over this flow speed regularly, despite their handling not being as good as normal bikes? They'd be taking on more risk than riders on better handling bikes if they tried.

To top it off, emtb allows people to carry the weight of gear that makes them ride better (less like a noob). Less dragging brakes down slopes, less skidding, less going around obstacles and widening trails...
  • 3 1
 @Varaxis: We're talking about different things - not even counting the hiker vs. trail runner analogy, which I think is less relevant than considering the actual bikes being discussed. I'm not talking about roosting when starting, as that happens so rarely during a ride as to be insignificant. Even stalls are infrequent enough to be a minor factor, overall, though they're certainly of localized significance.

It's true a bike that helps the rider carry speed may reduce erosion when it helps the rider roll over things that could've caused a stall and spin for an unassisted rider. On the other hand:

1. When an assisted bike does stall and spin, it may spin with more force and the tire could rotate farther, as the rider will be in a higher gear ratio than they would be on an unassisted bike.
2. In some situations, a rider may stall due to lack of skill more than lack of force. In such a case, the rider is less likely to spin when unassisted than when assisted. Even so, I don't know about you, but stalls with wheel spinning are infrequent for me.
3. Riders on assisted bikes are still pedaling when they would otherwise be walking on an unassisted bike. Riding up extremely steep trails certainly will create more wheel slippage and erosion than walking up the same trail.

The only way an assisted bike could cause less erosion per unit of distance covered is if it spins less, which I'm not convinced is the case. As examples, albeit on severe terrain, we could look at a Pinkbike test and an EMBN EWS-E Power Stage climb:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDkle6JVfRU
www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3wlpdhsFNI

The riders mention traction issues several times and, to my eye, there are several instances of the rear wheel spitting rocks in ways I don't think an unassisted bike would do.

If we look at the GMBN video below, by counting wheel revolutions during the slow-mo shots on steep, smooth ground, I get about 25% slip rate. We don't have an unassisted bike to which to compare, so I can only speculate it looks different from what how I'd expect an unassisted bike to look. Maybe there's some analogy to how assisted vs. unassisted bikes would perform on less steep terrain. Maybe the only value is a glimpse into what happens on extreme grades that would force an unassisted rider to walk.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eBmLBv6Dks

We may be losing sight of the big picture, so let's take a step back. An assisted bike is putting greater average shear force through the contact patch (assuming fairly similar weight and contact patch, both of which are a lot closer between assisted vs. unassisted than the discrepancy in power outputs). This difference in average force is not in doubt - it's the mechanism by which the bike is propelled, and assisted bikes do more propelling. It's implausible that a vehicle applying more force will be more gentle on the trail. We can look at local effects and non-linear rates of erosion under various circumstances, and doing so will surely result in a wear rate that's not a perfectly linear relationship to the difference in average power, but the more powerful vehicle isn't going to be more gentle on the trail.

You've probably heard "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". To me, it's an extraordinary claim that two similar vehicles can have a 3× difference in power output and not have significantly different impacts on the trail. I don't feel the supporting arguments are extraordinary, so I'll thank you for your discussion and I'd prefer to end it from my side.
  • 5 4
 @stumphumper92: We’d more than happy to ignore Ebikes as soon as they f*ck off and trash their own trails and leave ours alone. There’s nothing stopping ebikers from picking up a rake and a mattoc and doing a bit instead of poaching mountain bike trails and ruining them for everyone.
  • 3 0
 @thenotoriousmic: That's a winning strategy. The me vs. you approach definitely helps with trail access.
  • 2 0
 @robcartwheel: factional infighting is the way to achieve greatness in all facets of life.
  • 2 0
 Glad to see the hate for ebikes is still alive and well
  • 2 4
 @R-M-R: a slope that is steep and techy enough to force a casual rider to walk, but is not steep enough for a casual emtber to ride up, is an interesting scenario.

You suggest the walker does less erosion. I will contest that. Walking up a dirt slope requires a surprising amount of grip, hence why stairs are considered an infrastructure improvement. Pushing up a bike while walking further stresses that grip. Every time a foot slides... when a bicycle tries it, and the wheel slips, it's likely due to too much torque from low gearing and lack of momentum. There's less likely to be slipping if the rider's in a higher gear, but you'd need more power to push that gear, which is where fitness or a mid-drive pedal assist system helps. Who the heck believes that cleanly clearing a challenging climb causes more erosion than all the various attempts by more novice riders? Better fitness and a better bike help reduce all that faff, and a quality emtb is likely the best choice for novices and out-of-shape experienced riders that money can buy, especially if they're not concerned about racing.

Why do you repeatedly refuse that it's plausible that there's less erosion with faster speeds? I'm arguing that there's a sweet spot speed that minimizes erosion, and acknowledge that it takes fitness, skill, and experience to stay in that range. I'm suggesting that quality emtbs lower that fitness, skill, and experience requirement. There's less stress on the ground when you are carrying momentum over it... it's easily imagined if you take for instance a soil type that is more prone to erosion and shear force, like a sandy beach.

Compare a walker going down a hill, maintaining their slow walking speed, vs one that just lets gravity accelerate them, letting their legs loose to increase stride and stay upright. Compare to a rider that is going at a smooth, controlled flowing speed downhill and to a rider that heavily drags brakes (perhaps because they have fast rolling tires that they can't afford to brake late into corners with)... I'm confident that the people who resist gravity, from speeding them up, are causing more erosion than those who are flowing with it.

Rest of your argument is still you repeating your same oversimplified crap based on assumptions that the ebike behaves like a motor vehicle, rather than a bicycle with pedal-assist whose motor was programmed to retain the bicycle experience. You still are cherry-picking scenarios where noob behavior (low skill) and reckless behavior (racing/competing) causes erosion. The emtb is not to blame there, but the rider. I've been saying that emtbs can reduce noob habits. It also makes racing kind of pointless. Not hard to see through all the confirmation bias you use; behind it all is just blind hate.

Emtbs are not for everyone, just like enduro FS bikes aren't for everyone. They open up all sorts of riding for those who have the locale for it, and are a great replacement for shuttling.
  • 4 1
 @Varaxis: You contend ebikers create less wear and tear on the ups by using arguments based on realistic scenarios. Then you contend the same is true on the downs while abandoning all sense of reality.
Speed differences among riders exist, but the % differences aren't something I'm going to assume. However, braking causes more wear and tear to the trail.
Exhibit a) braking bumps.
The mass increases by 15-20kg and you want to pretend the physical effects of that dont exist on the trail- what are you smoking?
You increase the number of ebikers, you increase trail damage.
Exhibit b) reality.

It's like R-M-R said, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and you're lacking that.

Take the last word.
  • 2 1
 @Varaxis: As if you typed all that and then finished with Ebikes are great for shuttling. Haha
  • 2 0
 @cotic-bikes: Pointing the finger at Strava is too simple. Riders have alway looked for new trails using whatever tools are available to them. Strava is just one tool. There are loads I have use dover the years. Besides shouldn't a trail be for everyone or no-one?

As someone who has ridden those same Peak District trails as you for longer than you've had a bike company and longer than Strava has existed the increase in traffic is not just down to one bit of technology.

I have a web site with Peak District routes on it and you actively promote riding in the area to help sell your bikes - if there is a problem we are part of it too.
  • 1 0
 @sonuvagun: mass increases by 5-8kg, 11-18lbs - Norco's biggest battery is 3880g (720 Wh). Shimano's heaviest emtb motor is 2880g (E7000).

A liter of water is 1kg, and some people carry 3L on their back to fuel their rides, which I see as comparable to a battery's fuel.

Realistic scenarios: noobs and racer wanna-bes cause extra erosion, enough to anger entitled mtbers (Karens).
Unrealistic: emtbs straight up multiplies that.

Irrational belief: the ground erodes more from a bike that weighs 15 lbs more, than some person adding 15 lbs to them in some other way, like packing some extra weight on their belly over the holidays.

My belief: the extra 7kg that a motor and battery adds to a bike offers way more performance per $ and gram than any other stuff these bike sites cover, especially all that lightweight carbon stuff. A person losing 7kg of lard on their body does 'em more good than throwing money at crap to save 7kg in weight off their bike. If people stopped being so sensitive to being overbiked, this place would be far less toxic.

@thenotoriousmic: great *replacement* for shuttling. As in ditching the separate shuttle vehicle, whether it's the car to drive to the trailhead or a lift. In other words, riding to the trailhead from home, and riding to the top.
  • 225 24
 I want a Banshee now
  • 63 7
 Agreed! Their answers struck a cord the most
  • 15 4
 *chord
  • 49 6
 Yeah, Keith Scott is definitely the one who've understood everything. Total respect.
  • 56 4
 I have been back and forth over buying a Banshee Prime frame or a competitors. Kieth hit the nail on the head. I will be ordering the frame this week and am happy to wait.
  • 18 2
 from experience, they ride incredible. IMO, some bikes, like Banshee, just have a distinct ride quality to them. I steal my sons Banshee more than I should while he is in school during the week. His Spitfire is just sooo much fun.
  • 16 3
 I'm now even more happy riding one
  • 9 45
flag pargolf8 (Nov 29, 2021 at 5:38) (Below Threshold)
 I like banshee but from a business perspective, there’s nothing like choosing to cut yourself out of market share
  • 6 2
 @birddog69: I love my Prime. Best bike I’ve ever owned. Hands down. A Very well balanced bike that does everything well. I ride my on my local trails and the bike park and it handles all the business.
  • 40 6
 @pargolf8: Thankfully some people see standing by your principles as more important than getting the next buck.
  • 9 47
flag pargolf8 (Nov 29, 2021 at 6:02) (Below Threshold)
 @commental: its 2021 bro, is there really anything more important than getting the next buck? I hope one day i too can pay for my mortgage and hobbies with morals
  • 7 1
 @birddog69: Had a Banshee Phantom, you are gonna enjoy it so much, they just "get" geometry, suspension performance and robust construction. Funny that I transplanted those Bike components to a Cotic Rocket this year, for more plush
  • 5 1
 @pargolf8: I fear this may be completely true, but they've earned my respect, in every direct or indirect communication I've had with them. Problem is their bikes don't seem to break easily, so it'lll be years before I will need to buy another one.
  • 3 1
 They are very sick bikes. I would suggest anyone on the fence to just order one, they are that good.
  • 7 8
 Says the majority of the people who also probably wants/owns a Tesla
  • 5 1
 @birddog69: I've had 2 Spitfires and currently have a Darkside and a Titan. My Titan is my favorite bike I've ever owned.
  • 15 35
flag Narro2 (Nov 29, 2021 at 8:17) (Below Threshold)
 nah, Banshee's response sounded like Victimizim "we are only 3 people", "we are considering the environment", "economies of scale..." "when the tech is not heavy", come on man, just say, we have no money for it. There is nothing wrong with that.
  • 3 1
 @pen9-wy: Sounded like he's patiently waiting for a new Shimano motor with integrated gearing. So once they have that available, he might design a bike around it. Not sure how much these words are worth. More than a few brands claimed they wouldn't make pedal assist mtb a few years ago. That said, it doesn't really guide my buying decision. If a brand has the frame I'm looking for I'd probably get it at some point, whether they have an e-bike in their stable or not. I'm not interested in the pedal assist bikes themselves. I don't need them for where I ride, they're too expensive for what I'm willing to pay for my gear and last but not least I prefer to stay on the tail end of technological progress. I'd hate to pay loads for something to then after only a few years realize that a newer model serves my needs better.
  • 6 3
 @pargolf8: I hope morals will be the next big currency and we can forget Bitcoin and those that are already morally bankrupt
  • 6 1
 @pargolf8: Patagonia nearly bankrupted itself chasing the MOAR growth is always better paradigm and theyve been remarkably successful pursuing a much leaner growth curve ever since. Its of course, not a business model for every company, given their customer base trends towards the higher disposable income side of things, but it is undeniable proof of concept. Wearing some hand me down patagucci right now. Only stuff I own is gifts from ex girlfriends mostly LOL

And I would say I'm able to pay for my my hobbies and riding everyday with my morals (savings acculumated after working 5 years as an rn, quit in the spring to fish salmon and currently taking a break before getting a travel gig)

Lots of different ways to do life, just depends on how you're looking at it. But one size certainly does not fit all
  • 2 0
 @birddog69: I have had a Prime V3 for 20 months, it's great and I ain't changing up to another bike any time soon.
  • 4 1
 I’ve had a lot of Banshees and they’re awesome bikes! You won’t be disappointed.
  • 4 0
 @burnskiez:

WOW I'm glad you have a flexible work schedule that allows you to ride MOAR often.

Seems like riding MOAR has a bigger impact on a trail versus someone that rides less, due to work + family obligations...

LOL just giving you shit from your BS comment on the "Opinion: How Many Batteries Does a Mountain Bike Really Need?" thread
  • 11 15
flag SterlingArcher (Nov 29, 2021 at 14:42) (Below Threshold)
 Lol, ebikes aren’t going anywhere, losers!
  • 9 8
 @SterlingArcher : For real, not a single one of these dorks are buying Banshee's.
  • 4 0
 So proud I won two, right now!
  • 2 0
 Own, not won. Typo…..
  • 1 4
 @pbfan08: banshee’s last good bike was the scream, change my mind.
  • 3 1
 @TCarl11: Fair play lol, thats what the comments should be about imo, shit talking that hopefully doesn't cross the line too far. And I mean what do you expect these threads to contain, obviously its gonna be where we all come to shit on emtbs, such thin skin to go along with those newfangled bikes I guess ha. To clarify, not a flexible work schedule though, quit my job. I guess the point is, its not entirely reasonable to expect to have all the cake and eat it too. At least if we want to continue to have nice things far into the future. Maybe its ok to not get to ride as much due to having a job + family? I know having to make that sacrifice is why I've chosen not to pursue house ownership or a family. And the not working is why this dork is having to wait until I sell a couple of bikes to get my Banshee Titan @pbfan08
  • 189 13
 Why haven’t you built an ebike yet?
Knolly “ have you seen how ugly our normal bikes are?”
  • 9 2
 They would be the only brand with a more-attractive ebike. (Sorry Knolly, but you must have heard it all before)
  • 9 2
 Actual LOL at this one Big Grin
  • 3 1
 lmao
  • 6 1
 Haha you beet me to it. That sure fell out of the ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down
  • 14 3
 I like the joke, but in all honesty I don't really get it. I think their bikes look really cool, and not just in a quirky way. I guess my sense of aesthetics is just kinda off. I also think Pole bikes look really cool, and everyone loves to hate them. By the way, I'm not talking about their Voima ebike, that thing is an abomination
  • 3 1
 @hardtailpunter: Hmmm I like Pole bikes... what does that say about my taste?
  • 19 1
 Pinkbike - "Hey Knolly, the people think your bikes are ugly"
Knolly - "Let's paint them the color of bile and see if that helps"
  • 9 3
 @nukedchipp: you eat glue.
  • 16 1
 @BikesNRussets: As long as he eats the glue that keeps Pole bikes together his lips shouldn't stick together!
  • 3 2
 Also "We are too busy suing Intense over a hypothetical end of a seatpost"
  • 2 1
 @NorCalNomad: I guess the end of the seat post was to INTENSE for knolly.

Edit:
After I posted this I rode into the sunset on my intense tracer, and I said “that was a very intense pun I wrote earlier”.
  • 146 5
 When your brand is so niche it's not featured in the 'not featured' section
  • 6 2
 Nothing is free in this world!
  • 16 9
 They've neglected Evil as well. Have you ever done anything to piss them off?
  • 3 0
 ....Unless you've made an e-dit that only Pinkbike knows about!
  • 22 1
 @AyJayDoubleyou: I don't know, maybe. Does not making a 29er count?
  • 23 0
 @AyJayDoubleyou: Evil eMTB was leaked a week or two ago..
  • 3 0
 @AyJayDoubleyou: evil have an ebike on the way, shimano leaked it the other week, which i guess is why theyre missing
  • 5 0
 Pretty sure Sick doesn't have an (e)bike coming any time soon, if ever.
  • 7 0
 @vinay: they'll likely take your deposit on one though!
  • 1 0
 @AirdropBikes: yeah i'd say that counts
  • 1 0
 Advertising dollars hard at work!
  • 1 0
 @AyJayDoubleyou: evil is coming up with their ebike so that's why they arent there.
  • 1 0
 We say hi!
  • 90 3
 REAL bicycles with zero electronics will never go out of style.
  • 8 8
 I’m a fan of E-bikes, but pedal bikes are still super fun. You don’t have to worry about battery life!
  • 91 8
 Ebike sad truth:

1. Mountain bike companies want to sell you ebikes

2. Pinkbike wants to sell ads

3. Therefore: Pinkbike wants to sell you ebikes

Filters will disappear, content will shift, money drives it all
  • 24 47
flag pargolf8 (Nov 29, 2021 at 5:39) (Below Threshold)
 Money drives the world, bud. Quit whining about ebikes
  • 14 17
 @pargolf8: Impossible lol a mtb'er can't go 2 seconds without complaining anytime an emtb is mentioned. Even though they can easily ignore with the emtb filter.
  • 19 27
flag BikesNRussets (Nov 29, 2021 at 7:20) (Below Threshold)
 @stumphumper92: I don’t see the problem with e-bikes, we have had no trouble at our local mtb park that allows E-bikes. It’s just stupid hipsters who can’t stand the idea of someone having more fun.
  • 11 3
 @stumphumper92: If ebikes becoming a thing has taught me anything, its that just cause "we're fellow mountainbikers" doesn't mean we actually have anything in common, and I probably don't wanna sit and chat with you trail side(and by you i don't mean you i mean 99% of the people i run into on a ride).
  • 11 18
flag stumphumper92 (Nov 29, 2021 at 7:45) (Below Threshold)
 @BikesNRussets: The minority is always the loudest. So is the PB comment section lol Agreed I never hear t people complain/have issues with ebikes outside of PB. In the real world it is usually people admiring and wishing they had one.
  • 19 4
 Ebike sad truth:

1. Increase reliance on proprietary preformed frame parts with standards that will change every 2 years

2. Increase reliance on Taiwanese and Chinese manufacturing given that the US is incapable of supplying batteries and controllers

3. Take even more authority away from frame makers and turn bike brands into component integrators

Are ebikes something riders asked for, or something that private equity demanded?
  • 10 16
flag BikesNRussets (Nov 29, 2021 at 8:04) (Below Threshold)
 @fjopsys: Riders asked for, because us gravity riders can do more laps.
  • 16 6
 @fjopsys: I like my ebike a lot. I like my regular bike a lot. I acknowledge that the battery is worse for the environment than no battery. I am a consumer…. But on the legal trails, ebikes are fun! Marketing didn’t make me like them, riding them did…
  • 13 15
 Literally nobody cares about the pinkbike audience. You guys are a bunch of insecure, sad, untalented losers who complain about a company selling bikes. Literally nobody cares about your opinions hahahaha
  • 4 0
 Bike companies want to sell bikes. If it is new and people want to buy it, having it makes it a lot easier. As specialized said long ago, innovate or die.
  • 1 1
 @fjopsys: battery or not, no one is supporting your frame for longer than that. Things move too fast to sit on old frame for warranty’s sake. Electronics as a whole hasn’t been our thing for decades, ask intel. Almost nothing in bikes is customer led design, that’s why it’s a fashion industry. Then again, ask people what they wanted back then and they would have said a faster horse per Mr Ford
  • 3 0
 @usedbikestuff: Not a fan of specialized, but I can 100% get behind innovate or die!
  • 6 2
 @SterlingArcher: Hey donny, you literally should say literally again.
  • 1 4
 @burnskiez: happy that I got under your skin Smile
  • 1 4
 @burnskiez: literally happy
  • 4 1
 @SterlingArcher: LOL more like cracking me up, I'm dying over here the way it took you two tries to get the literally in there. As well as how often you manage to post on these threads. I guess thats an upside to ebikers, more keyboard warrior than anything else. As soon as the batteries die a couple times and the CEL's get annoying, it'll be collecting dust........
  • 1 2
 @burnskiez: Didn’t know I had a stalker. I’m flattered to have a fan, but I’m just not that into you. You’ll have to go to your normal glory hole in the podunk town you live in. Good luck!!
  • 1 2
 @burnskiez: I’m just happy that your feelings got hurt by my completely innocuous post. SNOWFLAKE ALERT!!!
  • 1 2
 @burnskiez: also how many burner accounts do you meth head backwoods moonshiners have? If you spent more time working instead of making raccoon stew maybe you’d make more money HAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAH
  • 72 4
 i like that Banshee call out the industries green washing. winds me up when they pump out unimaginable amounts of crap into the markets and the atmosphere and turn around and be like "yer, but we planted some trees though"
  • 35 0
 ...or more likely, we paid a 3rd party who said they'd plant some trees for us. Waiting to see this erupt as a scandal in a few years time.
  • 9 0
 yup, they always forget that trees take decades to mature to the point they are absorbing a useful amount of carbon.
  • 10 0
 All they need to do is stick a couple of solar panels on the roof of their facility, then they can claim they've mitigated any damage done. Works for Trek.
  • 2 0
 36" bike is in your future @MartyMcfly2810 !!
  • 5 5
 I like that you suddenly care about the environment. Just when it suits your whining
  • 58 7
 Keith killed it with the answers. I have never read a better Q&A. I agree 100% with all of it.
  • 19 3
 It's always a pleasure to listen to such a purist like him. I know some people hate purists, but every domain need purists, as long as it brings something beautiful, positive, and kind of progressive.
  • 5 5
 Yes, that was so good. I'll get an e-mtb (hopefully from Banshee) when they reach the point Keith is describing, but I think that'll take awhile.
  • 53 8
 Props to Banshee - "no, we don't want to, because we don't like it"
  • 22 15
 Nah, you gotta read between the lines on their comment. Like every brand listed, its an economies of scale and not having staff to do it. Everything else is just filler and fodder. The audacity of brands to point fingers and say nah the but the environment as to why their not making ebikes or carbon bikes. But then just tacitly endorsing bauxite mining by only producing Alu bikes, LMAO. IDK if their trying to live up to the brain dead mountain biker stereo type, but they sure are in my book by releasing statements like that.
  • 8 3
 @pbfan08: the whole "and Shimano tell us even if we order now we won't get drive units and batteries until the end of '23 earliest" (Cotics response) is also very revealing...
  • 8 10
 @pbfan08: nailed it. all BS posing and nothing else.
  • 6 7
 @hamncheez: Yup that is just them rationalizing being behind the 8-ball, and paying the price for it.
  • 11 9
 Lol banshee cannot survive in the future
  • 53 14
 I'm with Banshee guy, Commuting ebike - great, makes sense. Mtb ebike - many questionable issues.
  • 8 0
 Oddly enough banshee doesn't seem to build a communter bike though. Because when it comes down to it, even non-emtbs are a luxury product that have an environmental impact (carbon more than metal), especially if we drive our vehicles to the trails to ride them. And it appears Banshee doesn't make a carbon bike, so they could argue this even about non-ebikes.

And I think it's a good argument, but if pushed to the extreme we are in trouble.

Luckily the political climate these days isn't about the extremes at all....
  • 10 8
 Nah, no issues at all. Just go ride and quit whining
  • 3 6
 @SterlingArcher: Don’t come to Vermont then. Can’t ride emtb in many locations. Only a few official/designated locations that I know of.
  • 6 0
 @iduckett: wasn’t planning on it
  • 1 0
 @SterlingArcher: I’d buy one if there were no restrictions here. But, there are, so I’ll continue to pedal my favorite trails the old fashioned way. You got any emtb trails near you?
  • 1 0
 @iduckett: why I don’t have is the Ben n Jerry’s factory near me. Jealous!!
  • 2 0
 @iduckett: Just like normal bikes, don't be a dick head and no one will care. Anti e-bike trail systems are just a symptom of absolutely worthless government agencies filled with lazy workers that are completely out of touch with reality. Look at Europe, its fine, and they have a fraction of the public land that is available in the USA and Canada.
  • 1 0
 @pbfan08: Yea, while that applies to state land, many trails near me are heavily landowner based, and they can do as they please. Some just don't like emtb's and nothing will sway their opinion, at least for now. It's awesome that Europe has embraced it. It makes a lot of sense at bike parks for an uplift.
  • 1 0
 @SterlingArcher: Even better is knowing someone who works there! They get dozens of factory seconds pints. I'd be a blob though, I have no self control when it comes to ice cream. Big Grin
  • 28 0
 There are three types of responses in the article:

1. We would like to but cannot afford to right now
2. We are working on it.
3. Keith.
  • 32 8
 Literally all the responses are either ‘we are working on an ebike’ or ‘we can’t afford to launch an ebike’.
  • 26 24
 Ya Banshee's response was basically a fancy way of saying we can't afford to so we will pretend like we care about the environment lol
  • 9 12
 @stumphumper92: Yep, exactly this. Good way to market yourself to the haters, though. But still, if they can’t or don’t want to make them, then good for them for sticking to their plan.
  • 5 5
 or "Shimano might send us some motors in two years if we put in a big enough order"
  • 8 8
 @stumphumper92: that is exactly what their response reeks of. Bullshit
  • 25 9
 If there was ever a bike designer I have always had great respect for its Keith Scott. I've owned a couple of banshee bikes and had direct contact with him a few years back about one of my bikes. He always been a designer not to jump on bandwagon and fads! Most importantly, designs great mega strong bikes.
  • 27 3
 The fact his bikes can be run as a mullet is just the icing on the cake.
  • 5 22
flag MattP76 (Nov 29, 2021 at 3:51) (Below Threshold)
 @getonyourbike: Doesn't mean it's not a fad!! You can run his bikes in 27.5 and 29 at both ends. They who chose with run a Mullet are still running a fad.
  • 5 0
 @MattP76: Not only that, you can run 12x142 if you want in some configurations. Super cool for those who just want to upgrade their frame.
  • 3 0
 If GG didn't exist I'd be on a Banshee, Reeb, Canfield or Bird. You can see a lot of similar ethos between these companies. Only two of them are making their own bikes, manufactured in-house, though.
  • 3 0
 @getonyourbike: you are the best! Haha awesome
  • 1 2
 @pen9-wy: Haha yes, so amazing. Chortle chortle!!
  • 3 2
 No he said it himself they just can't afford the R&D for one lol everything else about caring about the environment and "earn your turn" is just fluff lol Don't fool yourself for one second thinking if they could afford to make one they wouldn't. You'd be a shit businessman not to hop on that "bandwagon"
  • 11 0
 It's interesting that you have to look for small companies before you can find a company with out an ebike. It seems if you are large enough to invest in an ebike, then you are going to tap into that cash cow. (Salsa/QBP and maybe Ibis being the exception)
  • 5 2
 I'd say Transition are bigger than both of those.
  • 2 1
 @commental: Transition may be bigger but Pipedream is longer. That said, this also implies they have more than enough room for motors and batteries.
  • 2 0
 The thing about Ibis is that when they could have been designing an eMTB, they built a solar-powered factory in the US and re-engineering their layup process.
  • 17 7
 I love my Banshee Darkside and now reading Keith's take on e bikes I like them even more, kudos to them for keeping it real and thinking of their business model vs market trends. Please don't change you have fans of your work, sexy raw aluminum! I will gladly buy another.
  • 3 1
 But they are thinking about their business they said they can't afford it. Hence the real reason why they haven't made one.
  • 20 10
 TLDR:
Banshee - can't afford it.
Bird - have prototype, supply issues.
Cotic - have prototype, supply issues.
Forbidden - can't afford it.
Guerilla Gravity - can't afford it.
Knolly - wannabe "high-end niche player"
Starling Cycles - can't afford it.
  • 9 1
 I'd honestly be really curious to see what Transition has to say. They're probably big enough to afford it, and I assume they have some prototype kicking around. But it also wouldn't shock me to see them take a purist stance.
  • 6 8
 This is how I read it too. We talk about green washing, but there is also negative green washing, where you pretend to care about being green when really it's a cover for some other reason.
We make luxury/hobby market bikes with a carbon footprint bigger than 0. We really care about carbon footprints. That's why we don't make an ebike.

If they really cared about the planet more than money, they would stop making bikes.

Honesty is a hard thing to come by!
  • 2 1
 @withdignityifnotalacrity: All signs point to one coming pretty soon.
  • 1 0
 The Cotic picture in the article shows an e-bike. lol.
  • 1 1
 @withdignityifnotalacrity: TR E is on the way
  • 2 0
 @withdignityifnotalacrity: I was desperate for a transition response to this. Will be really interesting to see what these guys do in the future with ebikes as they are definitely a "purist" brand with everyone in the company being shredders but ebikes are without a doubt a big part of the future of mountain biking just like 29'rs. Companies will likely have to adapt or die
  • 7 2
 @withdignityifnotalacrity: Transition isn’t stupid enough to refuse selling ebikes. There’s too much money to be made
  • 4 3
 @ihatetomatoes: the money made by ebikes will be greater than any detriment caused by online haters and idiots. So people can hate all they want “whaaaa they aren’t purist anymore!” While the companies laugh all the way to the bank.
  • 11 2
 Why is an eMTB required in a lineup? If a company doesn't want to make one they shouldn't have to justify why. I hope there is a Q&A with all the major companies making eMTBs, where they have to justify why they're making them, and I hope they're forced to counter concerns raised in this article.
  • 8 3
 Because the European market alone is too massive to ignore.
  • 26 15
 Earn your F’in turns!!!
  • 10 15
flag zojdson (Nov 29, 2021 at 4:03) (Below Threshold)
 try to see it like this: eBikes are bicycles with integrated shuttles/lifts
  • 10 2
 @zojdson: 90% of the ebikes I see are on XC trails, where theres barely 1k ft of gain over 15miles.
  • 8 2
 The weight geometry or derailleur drivetrain arguments on ebikes are much more important to me than the environmental side of the thing.

We are talking about mountain biking, which is a niche in the world of mobility. We have seen that an electric bike could weigh ~ 500kg of CO2 emissions (I voluntarily exaggerate), but we forget that a car is about 5 to 10 tons of CO2 in production ... and the bike can sometimes replace the car in question for the end user ...
If we're talking about the environment, I don't think the priority should be on the world of cycling, which is already an alternative to polluting modes of transport...

Although I am convinced that this is of course a primary issue for all products, as long as possible, maximum efforts must be made to respect the environment and limit emissions.

In the end my thougt is that i prefer it to be a mindset more of a selling or no-selling point.....
  • 2 1
 I really would like to get a eMTB but a more mature version like without a deraileur.
Some are in the works.

To use it as a commuter however it would suck because it only can make 25kmh and I am sure 30kmh with heavy and knobby tires will not be possible for me for 45km for one way. I don't like the time I waste with commuting so I stay with train's and xc/gravel bikes .
For that distance over gravel and bad tarmac I could hold average of 30kmh with an xc.

Those are the reason why I stay way from it
Also , I don't have a car..
  • 7 4
 @Serpentras: Me tto, but want pegs and not cranks. Wonder if this exists already?
  • 2 0
 @Serpentras: I have a 10 mile commute (so 16 km give or take) and it's awesome on an ebike. Ofcourse our ebikes aren't quite as speed limited as euros. But you all have much better bike infrastructure, so call it a draw Smile
  • 1 0
 @withdignityifnotalacrity:
Man I just saw some videos from
not just bikes
NA really looks like a desert even compared to Germany if we talk about cycle infrastructure.

@SLBIKES ha no thanks but at least 5kmh would be nice. I would not loose any time on that trip and because I have big mountains near me I could even do a proper afterwork trail ride by just alter the route.
  • 1 0
 @Serpentras: I am lucky in that my commute is like 80% bike path/bike lane, so I am relatively fortunate in that regard. But yeah, bike infra outside of a few select cities is pathetic and a huge bummer. I wonder if the uptick in ebikes and scooters will create more pressure and a bigger constituency to push for more investment. Fingers crossed!
  • 1 0
 @Serpentras: I live in one of the areas he routinely shows, not Houston.... and can confirm. You can't safely walk or bike here, as a commuter. You'll die.
  • 9 0
 Listen Banshee, I earn my turns by paying for my season pass at Angel Fire where I ride my legend
  • 4 8
flag SterlingArcher (Nov 29, 2021 at 14:51) (Below Threshold)
 Nah, they’re done
  • 8 3
 "The battery issue is a worry, but given that's a global issue with electric cars etc, the solution will have to present itself."

= I want to sound like I care but as long as the solution involves me making less money, I'm out.
  • 3 1
 Or "We're a small business buying a couple of hundred batteries per year and therefore have absolutely no possible leverage on our supply chain." If a battery recycling or reuse programme came along that cost money to do, we would do it in a heartbeat, and we will be spending a good chunk of time whilst we're waiting for the bikes to arrive to come up with better solutions.
  • 5 0
 I wonder if the lack of interest in a company to produce an eBike would be a selling feature to any prospective buyers?

It seems like the consumers are quick to pick their favorite brand, and nothing, ebike in the lineup or not, will keep them from getting something from that brand. I'm sure Banshee would still lots of bikes if they produced an ebike, and people will still talk them up.

But how many people look at a brands lineup and say "no ebikes, great! I'm buying one of their bikes."
  • 4 0
 So who’s the big manufacturer w/ the supposed 100% failure rate I wonder? That’s a terrible hat to put on every morning. I mean 100%, correct me if I’m wrong but that’s like every f%#kn Ebike you’ve ever sold right? How the hell are they still in business? Even if that assumption is off by 20% or 30% It would seem somebody somewhere is loosing some serious cabbage to say the least.
  • 2 1
 It’s likely after a certain period of time, like maybe 1000km out a controller breaks or a gear shears. It’s shitty but happens with cars all the time: product with a known issue is released, then the part gets replaced a few years later under warranty or recall
  • 4 0
 The early Brose motors on Specialized sooner or later all had a snapped belt, but they indeed were very efficient with a replacement motor, so I guess that keeps the customer happy.

I had to replace my Shimano E8000 a little while ago (after only 2000km!) and the shop told me I'm definetly not the only one and even advised to sell. He also mentioned that Bosch seems very reliable and that he hadn't experience any troubles with Yamaha (but I don't think there are that many bikes out there with that system anyway).
  • 10 2
 Big respect for bikes companies continuing begin bikes companies,
  • 14 7
 Keith Scott I got so much respect for you. You nailed it all. I might consider a Banshee as my next bike.
  • 14 6
 Next bike gonna be a banshee
  • 11 7
 The response from Banshee is admirable - enough to make me seriously consider becoming a loyal customer. It's so refreshing to hear a brand's honest opinion on their industry, regardless of what bigger brands are marketing. Well said Banshee
  • 8 4
 The only honest answer for ALL those companies:

"We simply don't have the cash to do it."

There are valid arguments against e-bikes but trail wear and climbing speeds are utter bullshit. Especially when it comes to new riders.
  • 17 13
 Banshee: 'we like to earn our turns' lol ...because no one at Banshee ever burns diesel smashing shuttle laps or has ever hit up a BC bike park.. ever! My purist captains lol

Give my a break. My emtb weighs less than my 03 Scream did and I've done and do FAR less damage to the trails on either because I subscribe to the 'old school ride, don't slide' methodology. A grom can do more damage to a trail on a single run shredding berms on a 32lb downcountry bike than me and my friends do on our eebs in an entire day.

With new lighter battery and motor tech, by 2025 all emtbs will be under 40lbs and will drive the entire market. If Banshee or Transition had the funds(or lack of elitism lol) to release an all-mountain and enduro ebike like say, Rocky Mountain... they be sold out or on back order while their other 'overpriced' models sat on the floor. 'Love the climb' See ya at the top!
  • 6 0
 Pinkbike weekly marketing meeting: "We need more post engagement this week. Any ideas?.
"Put up an ebike article and turn the filter off. Done."
  • 3 0
 Hmm... I was really expecting something from Ibis in this article. I have nothing against e-Bikes. As mentioned, anyone who does lift-served or shuttle rides can't really say anything. But right now, I think the tech has another 4-5 years of improvement ahead of it.
  • 9 5
 Unpopular opinion but if Banshee made an e version of the Titan, I'd open up my wallet and buy it right now. My Titan is my favorite bike I've ever owned and I'd love an e version for some days.
  • 7 6
 This is exactly why banshee will fold if they never make an ebike
  • 7 1
 Well done Transition too, seem to have put their R&D to good use making bloody fun alloy bikes
  • 6 2
 "one particular very big manufacture of eMTBs has a 100% failure rate on motors" Hey Joe McEwan, Founder at Starling Cycles, ya can't just toss out a stat like that and not get called out on it....
  • 4 1
 I can and I have! But I can't tell you who...
  • 5 0
 @phutphutend: this might not be it, but a mate of mine had a Levo and four or five of his mates had them too... And they literally all had to have the motors replaced under warranty.. which is fine when you're covered by the warranty, but it's not so good for the used market. You can't be confident as a buyer that the motor is going to stand the test of time. You can however be confident that when the motor shits itself, it's going to be expensive to fix.
  • 2 1
 @jaame: I thought the same but a guy in Farnborough has now set himself up for ebike motor service and replacements, costing circa £250! For me that’s a great price- check him out, great story behind the business

www.ebikemotorcentre.com
  • 3 1
 @sewer-rat: my wife's Clio usually costs less than that for a service, and that can like, drive to Switzerland and stuff.
Eebs will get there. I would love one but I'm going to wait for two things. First, they have to not cost the same as a used motorcycle. Second, they have to have a gearbox somehow built into the motor. Right now I can see the appeal but they're just not quite there in my opinion. Putting a conventional drivetrain on one makes absolutely no sense.

Give it five to ten years though and I'm sure there will be a range of absolutely sick options on the market.
  • 2 0
 As much as I'm an ebike hater, every component has a 100% failure rate if you use it long enough. Just like 100% of marriages end in death or divorce.
  • 1 0
 @jaame: Seems like every specialized ebike I see for sale used has a new motor that was replaced under warranty.
  • 1 1
 @ACree: exactly! Motor shits itself. Replaced under warranty. Owner shits himself about having to pay for it one day and sells the bike.
I wouldn't touch one!
  • 3 1
 Buying a new motor very 2 years, if required, is a small price to pay for maximising dh runs. Probably cheaper than 2 years uplift tickets also.
  • 1 0
 @mcozzy: yes that's certainly a valid point of view. I'm a tight c*nt and I also ride motorbikes. No way would I ever think about buying a motor for upwards of £1000 when I could pick up a motorcycle with an actual engine that will do twenty years and 100,000 miles if I want it to.
Motors just seem like a terrible rip off when compared to internal combustion engines.
  • 8 5
 I'm sure this will get buried, or downvoted until it's hidden, but man there's a lot of garbage comments on this thread that align "ebikes" with "greenwashing" and that alignment insinuates that regular pedal bikes are the more environmentally friendly choice, since they don't have batteries.

Anyone who thinks anything in the bicycle industry produced overseas, and lots of domestic manufacturing too, is "environmentally friendly" has got their head in the sand.
  • 11 9
 This is a great article.

I’d love an ebike. Living where I live, most decent trail centres are at least an hour away, reducing the time I have to ride. I’m much more into descending than climbing, so anything that makes the climbing quicker, easier and less boring is a win for me. More runs, more fun.

However…

We’re still a long way away from them being a truly viable option. Disregarding the high cost, ebikes have so many unresolved issues. Appalling reliability, still using derailleurs instead of a maintenance-free gearbox and weight. The biggest elephant in the room though is that they make cycling (a pretty eco-friendly pleasure) a high polluting, lithium-consuming, un-recycleable pastime. Until we work out how to deal with that, ebikes have no place.
  • 12 10
 Refreshing attitude from Banshee, especially when it seems that almost everyone else in the industry is pushing E-bikes as the best thing since sliced bread.
Purely from a riding perspective, I had a fairly open mind towards E-bikes, although I’ve no interest in owning/riding one myself, but there seem to be more and more idiots riding them now, riders with no clue on trail etiquette or respect for other trail users.
Had one blast past me on a pedally section yesterday, cutting off of the trail and back in front of me, if he’d given me a shout, I’d have pulled to one side. Karma nearly got him as he lost the front and nearly stacked it after rejoining the trail.
  • 10 11
 Even more annoying when they then hold you up on the descents.
  • 6 1
 Lets be honest, industry pushing e-bikes is simple math: Ebikes open bikes to much more people, more people bigger market, bigger market more sales, more sales more money. They win for sure. Keith has been right with literally every public statement ever made, when 27.5 was taking over big time around 2013/14, Banshee was one of the few brands offering 26" dropouts and his comment on that matter was something like: "Who am I to force people which wheel size to run."
  • 7 11
flag SterlingArcher (Nov 29, 2021 at 14:51) (Below Threshold)
 Banshee will be gone in a few years
  • 10 5
 I agree totally to the Banshee thinking about MTB / eMTB's. I'm glad to see that I'm not alone.
  • 4 2
 “ there is talk of recycling, but I suspect for now it's just greenwashing bullshit. ”.

Finally someone in the bike industry willing to say it out loud.

I’ll still probably get one in the next year or 2 as it makes sense for our circumstances. But I do wish they’d sort out battery recycling and motor reliability.
  • 4 0
 I was really hoping to see a reply from Transition. Not that I want to own a Ebike but I feel like their response would have at least been funny.
  • 8 3
 Opinions, selfies, brobrah videos and Red Bull are what’s ruining mtb’ing and the world in general, not ebikes.
  • 4 2
 These are piddly little companies that wont be able to bring them to market anytime soon, even the big players cant get them out. Everyone complaining about ebikes cracks me up, you will all make the switch soon enough, only takes one ride
  • 6 2
 This is a great read. Not often you get such frank discussion. Kudos to all involved
  • 6 1
 Can confirm Bird's customer service is amazing, at least in the UK!
  • 3 0
 Yea an one of the few companies to allow you to transfer a warranty to a second owner
  • 3 0
 @rich-2000: yea, i dont have one anymore, but i would recommend them to anyone. if only their marketing was on point. the aeris AM9 can be built to the same value for money as a privateer 161, but the frame is over a kg lighter and despite my best efforts i couldn't break mine.
  • 12 8
 After posting this, I am navigating straight to the Banshee website to purchase a new bike IMMEDIATELY.
  • 1 0
 I would've love to hear from Alchemy Bikes! They already have an Ecommuter/road/gravel bike. I feel like a lot of these companies are on par with them in terms of competition, and I've heard some rumors. they might be working on an E-MTB.
  • 1 0
 Personally one like to buy one and probably keep it for 5-10 years as my second bike alongside my hardtail or a short travel bike.

At the moment it seems to be that people run them for 18-24 months and then shift them before the motor dies.

I think geometry wise there’s not really many reasons nowadays you need to keep changing your regular bike every season as there aren’t the huge changes in geo/tech anymore.
  • 12 11
 Keith Scott: Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer Beer
  • 1 0
 Sick Bike Co. are planning an immenent release of the Sick-E. If everyone could just send them a cheque for £8k and buy a t-shirt, the bikes are ready to ship and are rad AF, honest guv, they will deliver on the hype this time.
  • 9 4
 Aren't e-bikes for, you know, old and/or week ?..
  • 4 4
 You would be weak if you’d have pedalled!
MTB is hardcore pedalling for sure, if he/she/other finds it difficult then ride an easy trail till your fitter, or try road cycling first, or even hit an exercise bike.
  • 7 4
 My Banshee Scream, weighing in at 56lbs, is pretty much heavier than any e-bike so I'm not sure Banshee really have the moral high ground on trail damage!
  • 5 1
 BAN ELECTRONIC MOTOR BIKES ONLY BUY FROM NON ELECTRONIC MOTOR BIKE COMPANIES!
  • 1 0
 Banshee answered the questions well and I agree with every single point. I also own an ebike and ride it most of the time. Everyone loves to pick a side. Us against them. Same ol’ monkeys, different subject. All bikes are rad! Except drop bar ‘gravel bikes’. Wtf are those about?
  • 6 5
 E-bikes are like Fat bikes and 27.5 plus bikes. Everyone will buy them at first and then stop riding them. Trust me, I have an e-bike. Thought it was cool for awhile, then was like "what the hell am I doing, this is so dumb". Shooting up hills and riding at 20 mph (plus) is fun at first, then it becomes unnatural and you realize that it is.
  • 2 1
 We had a racer prize given Banshee frame come into mtn view cycles in hood river for a build w/o cable stops on it a few years back. It was a true bong hit built bike. Never considered them after that. However, nowadays, there aren’t exactly a ton of reasonably priced squishy alloy bikes.
  • 2 0
 I wasn't fan of PB's narrative with the way the questions were all framed towards their responses being related to "eco friendliness"

learn journalism pls.

On the other hand, I was impressed by the intelligent responses.
  • 11 7
 Sorry but i earn my turns between 9-5 monday to friday. Then I hop on my ebike that earning paid for and i ride.
  • 1 0
 I think what this this really hammers home is that eMTBS are inherintly wasteful & an eco-monster
There's pros to getting more people on bikes, especially for comuting etc, but impact of batteries, future redundancy of standards, waste, environmental impact is huge.
You can say the same thing about electric cars but at least that is switching from one damaging tech to a hopefully less damaging one.
  • 3 0
 Rename this article: "Burning Question to 7 small fringe brands why they can't afford big R&D expenses like the big companies"
  • 1 0
 Workshop manager for leading global brand. E-bikes have been ongoing headache, majority come back with electrical failure caused by water ingress. Increasing numbers with motor failure. All replaced under warranty, some customers multiple replacement, some choose refund of bike having lots confidence/suffered months of downtime.

I'm all for e-bikes being used to replace cars on roads, and to provide the infirm or older riders with ability to keep riding.

But seeing young, fit men and women buying e-bikes is really depressing, and has horrible environmental consequences, both in terms of producing powered drivetrain, warranty replacement, and rapid burnout of drivetrain components and brake system. Easily seeing riders destroy drivetrain in 2-3 months - standard MTB components are just not suitable! Very valid case for gearbox, thick chain or belt drive.
  • 1 0
 Until PB puts out a valid and full spectrum survey of WHO is actually riding ebikes, all of these anecdotal and emotional responses towards ebikes are as sanctimonious as Banshee's "we like to earn our turns". It is your ego that is hurt that can't let someone pass you on the ups. Strava riders pass me on the climbs all the times and it doesn't bother me. I ride my own bike and as long as they are polite and don't try to run me off the trail, I give them space to pass. a*sholes ride all kinds of bikes.
Noel as Knolly had an honest response of "there is no point at this time to make another ebike to try to compete with the multitude of companies out there already using the same parts as it would not be a good return on investment to produce something that does not allow them to make a bike that remains true to their engineering principles (paraphrased)".
I would like to find out the facts of how many new riders are buying $8-10k ebikes for their first bike compared to more experienced rider who would shell out that kind of money, for their own specific reason. While I personally have had a full powered ebike and did not like it due to its weight, I now ride a Specialized Levo SL which gives me enough of a boost to make it up the climbing trails on the North Shore and in Squamish and still get a work out. I am 59 years old and broke my foot a couple of years ago. I think I have earned it.
Specialized makes a good product but if Knolly makes an ebike on the Warden or Chilcotin frame, I would switch over in a heart beat because I know it would be better for the trails I like to ride.
  • 6 2
 Banshee: we are purists and all, but we will do one. For purists.
  • 5 4
 Happy to see that there still is a bike company who shares my vision. Hats off Banshee! My next bike will most probably be a Titan (that leaves you another year to ditch the Trunnion mount haha)
  • 9 5
 Current bike, Ibis. Next bike Banshee or someone else on this list.
  • 10 6
 Money money money ..that's what it's all about..ebikes suck!!
  • 1 0
 I'd like to one day not own a truck, instead use a utility type E-bike... like a Benno Boost or something. I'll need to move to the mountains so that I can be close to trails... better get started on that.
  • 1 1
 Im guessing none of the guys writing comments against emtbs ever shuttles…Oh no wait! you do it in your Tesla!? lol
The only reason im not in a emtb today is because they are ugly and heavy but I have no doubt I’ll buy one in a few years when the technology becomes better and they become lighter. I agree with one of the comments from Banshee, a 200watt motor and a smaller battery with a low assist would be enough for me to get me interested
  • 2 2
 Keith Scott, Owner/Designer at Banshee: - "At Banshee we are purists, and like to ‘earn our turns’." " I don’t like the idea of unnecessarily introducing the pollution inherent in batteries and consumed power where they simply aren’t required by most people" Those are some pretty bold statements there- how about you can earn deez nutz Keith!! I don't understand why we have to care about how people enjoy trails, nature, etc. To me, if something helps get someone outdoors, who cares how many wheels it has, if it has batteries, etc. I am also tired of people thinking bike trails are made out of egg shells. We ride spots where thousands of bikes rip every week and the trails require very little maintenance. Go enjoy nature and don't let people decide how that happens.
  • 1 0
 Got to the trailhead yesterday, Fred and Karen had left their bikes laying in the parking lot. As Fred frantically tried to move them I said relax Fred I only run over e-bikes.
  • 3 1
 If you wouldn’t ever release an eMTB, why not?

That's kind of clumsy wording.
  • 8 5
 Knolly are ugly enough with out A Motor and battery in addition
  • 6 0
 Marin Mount Vision has entered the chat.
  • 6 2
 Where's Transition?
  • 4 4
 Apparently its imminent, if you believe the rumour mill
  • 5 6
 @rich-2000: has to be. They’re too big to not have one.
  • 5 9
flag rich-2000 (Nov 29, 2021 at 3:06) (Below Threshold)
 @Vlad-Putin:
Yea and as its my joint favourite brand, I’ll want one.
  • 4 0
 @rich-2000: If it's called the Transition "Imminent" then that is a sublime pun
  • 4 7
 The salt mining from the haters will be delicious when they release it. I'm looking forward to that more than Christmas.
  • 6 0
 As a fanboy I would hope that IF they go against their past stance on e-bikes (rumors seem to be piling up that they will) I would hope they at least do the following:

- Do something different than the rest (hard though with the reliance on a handful of manufacturers for motors and batteries).
- At least not partake in the 'biggest motor & biggest battery' race but rather prioritize actual ride quality and go light and lean.
- Bring back the 'Traitor' brand name for it and at least own the fact that they are going against their original stance.
  • 1 3
 @rich-2000: I rode Oranges for 9 years, loved them, but didn’t buy one of their E-bikes.
Been on a Transition for nearly two years and have another on order, but I’m pretty sure if Transition did bring out an E-bike (I hope they don’t], I’ll be able to resist.
Stay strong fella.
  • 2 4
 Transition can’t even deliver regular bikes and they are going to release an ebike? People have July delivery dates on Spires and have been waiting since last October on Spurs.

The can seriously eff off if they have been working on electric gimmicks (probably strapping a Shimano moto on an existing bike and making a goofy video about it) instead of trying to deliver bikes to people.
  • 5 4
 Would LOVE to buy a Transition ebike. Heck I’ll even pay a premium. @Transitionbikes
  • 1 0
 @wibblywobbly:
Shame. No issues with stock here.
  • 3 0
 @SterlingArcher: They wouldn't be able to keep them in stock
  • 12 13
 How much time have we spent watching videos of riders pushing their bikes uphill like its a badge of honor?
As a rider who doesn't like to stop, ebikes make dirt jump sessions way more fun when you can ride back to the top easy. Not only do you get more jumps in, you have fun riding uphill. win win.
  • 7 1
 Do you ride one of those e-dirtjump bikes? Wink
  • 9 6
 Banshee!!! respect for calling out everyone.
  • 6 4
 So I just went from not knowing Banshee existed to having lots of respect for them.
  • 9 5
 Banshee!
  • 1 0
 Any bikeshop here where i could borrow the Bosch diagnostics software? I would like to see the USB packets being sent to my Kiosk screen.
  • 5 2
 Yup, my next bike is a Banshee...
  • 3 0
 Dare to be different means:
Doesn't release an ebike.
  • 1 0
 But there are a lot of bichin bonghitbuiltbikes out there. So, let’s give respect where it’s due and keep ‘em “rollin” sucka’s!
  • 1 0
 There was a great podcast with the owner of Geometron bikes, he had a great argument about E bikes not being close to a finished product. Good listen if you can find it.
  • 4 1
 tldr: we're a small company and don't have the r+d budget to make an ebike
  • 1 1
 i dont think so and really hope for us all your 'can't afford it's' stick to their and our values. we cant all be on ebikes nor should we. And the we all shouldnt is more more important that i can or we can.
  • 1 0
 Good for those guys. I appreciate both perspectives. We can't expect everyone to conform nor would any of us want that anyways.
  • 1 0
 I'd rather see Knolly release a new DH bike instead of introducing an eMTB or yet another gravel grinder (let's be honest, the ol' Podium was pretty freaking sweet)
  • 3 0
 Pace make the RC170E?
  • 3 0
 Makita, Hitachi???
  • 6 5
 That's such a disappointing response from Cotic "the solution will have to present itself."
  • 7 0
 Probably just being realistic, but it did (probably unintentionally) come across a bit like "not our problem".
  • 2 0
 @chakaping: Some suggestions followed that comment... but they all take a scale well beyond one bike manufacturer. In fact, in my opinion, those developing and making the motor/battery systems need to step up and address these issues. If anyone has the scale in the bike industry, it's Shimano. None of the bike brands that contributed to this article have the scale to be extending the use of ebike batteries by repurposing them, but if Shimano offered a way of returning them, and them being redistributed for use in home or community storage paired to (intermittent) distributed renewable energy sources... it could make a huge difference.
  • 2 1
 What about Ibis, Transition and Evil? Those are somewhat popular brands that don't have any e-bikes yet.
  • 2 1
 When the "eBMX" appears, we should all know the industry has truly gone pear-shaped.
  • 1 0
 They have already been done.
  • 1 0
 @losidan: Nooooooooo!
  • 3 2
 Transition haveva new e-bike in pre-order with shimano ep-8 motor and a geometry like the Spire.
  • 4 6
 I don't understand the selling point of eMTBs for older riders. My Dad was an OG mountain biker in the 80s and 90s. He rode until he broke his collarbone at age 55 and the healing process took him out of his other sports (karate, snowboarding, and road biking) for nearly a year. Now he just road bikes because he doesn't want to get injured and lose out on his other sports, especially since it takes him longer to heal.

An e bike wouldn't help him at all with staying on the bike longer in life. If anything it's more dangerous by being faster uphill and having more downhill time, so he'd be less likely to ride it.
  • 3 0
 Oh yeah and riding a flipping bike next to cars is pleasant? Ever been hit by a car, got a concussion or had a car play chicken with you while going super fast down the white spars in Prescott, And what if you don’t like cars and like the forest and like biking. You don’t think you can ride safely(given you have a decent mtb background and aren’t hyped up by some bro brah ad or rampage segment) What if you prefer the peace of the woods and don’t like the noise of the grid. This ain’t tron bro! Ebikes are bichin and not the same kind of biching your prescribing to in this anti-e-shred-thread!
  • 3 2
 @Tigergoosebumps: sounds like you'd enjoy gravel biking, or even a regular mtb. I don't see how an e bike is necessary just cause you want to ride on dirt. Plenty of mellow trails anyone can ride on a regular bike. You'd only need an e bike if you're "hyped up by some bro brah ad or rampage segment" but aren't fit enough to do those kinds of rides without a boost.

My dad had decent mtb skills. He actually crashed on a section of fire road he'd ridden a thousand times cause mtb involves crashing sometimes, no matter how good you are. When my body is too old to climb, I'll probably be too old to crash as well, and therefore should try something more mellow. Nothing wrong with that. It's called maturity. But I won't be buying an emtb just so I can pretend I'm still 30.
  • 4 0
 @mtb-thetown Not everybody is the same. Yes healing takes a bit longer - hell I'm 57 and broke a rib this August riding the DH bike. Was off the bike for 2 weeks, then progressing from rail-rail through easy smooth trail rides and was back riding the park for Thanksgiving in October. As I have gotten older and the skills have begun to slide, I have made the decision to no longer ride the gnarly stuff. I am still having fun on the Blues and Single Blacks and imagine a day when I am down to simple trail-riding. Do I currently want an e-bike - Nope, but will I rule it out for the future? Nope. I can see a day (kinda fuzzy tho) when I may want one to ride simple stacked loops or rail trail. Over 50 years riding foot-cycles on dirt and I have no plan on stopping anytime soon. Have a great next ride.
  • 3 0
 What about IBIS?
  • 1 0
 I would not consider buying eMTB from any small manufacture, since motor battery and software will be out quite fast
  • 7 5
 Mopeds are for meat puppets
  • 1 0
 NS bikea have complete e bike.ns e-fine and it looks very good.a dartmoor bikes too
  • 6 5
 Banshee just won my respect. Such a legit answer. I’ll be getting a Spitfire for my next bike.
  • 3 2
 Banshee FTW! I'm still chasing some of my Banshee Spitfire v2 times. They did back then what everyone is trying to do now.
  • 2 1
 I didn't want a banshee before, but I do now. I'll even forgive their use of e*13.
  • 5 3
 7 brands no one cares about that haven’t releases an EBike…
  • 1 0
 I'd just like a company to say, "Nah, bro, we good. Buy that crap from someone else."
  • 1 0
 Pyga are developing a elite, buy are also beset by the worldwide supply chain issues
  • 2 3
 E--bike goons belong on the pavement only!
If its got a throttle then it needs to lose the pedals, be licensed, insured, equiped with legally visable lights/turn signals and banished to the street.
GET OFFA' MY LAWN!!!
  • 1 0
 Guys don't build an E bike yet, a wheels been invented that makes them redundant.
  • 2 0
 The way I read this, Ibis and Evil have ebikes coming...
  • 4 2
 100% agree with Keith Scott. i will seriously think to buy a banshee now
  • 7 5
 Keith Scott is a Sage
  • 2 1
 Rumor has it the Pyga eMTB is in development... We may see it in 2022...
  • 1 0
 They could put the batteries in rectangular aluminium tubes, like in the Morewood times :-)
  • 1 0
 Ibis not asked. Good sign or bad sign?
  • 1 0
 That Starling is a bike in production?
  • 1 1
 No, very early proto...
  • 1 0
 The starling bike looks wicked! It's like a bike and monster truck had a love child!
  • 5 4
 Never owned or ridden a Banshee...but just became a fan.
  • 1 1
 Wait, am I blind because I believe Transition does not have an E-bike as well, correct?
  • 2 0
 LOL
  • 2 5
 @stumphumper92: Not true they'll go away if there is no place to ride, at least in the US. Areas will simply be shut down to ALL wheeled recreation, Those that have been riding mtb's for decades know how this works and it's why were some of the most vocal opponents of emtb's
  • 2 3
 As a rider actively shopping for a new full sus, thanks for saving me the time to research and compile a list of builders NOT marketing an e-bike!
  • 1 0
 Left transition and revel out
  • 2 0
 ebike, not elite
  • 4 3
 My next bike will be a Banshee!
  • 2 0
 Good for them.
  • 3 3
 Verdammt! Have to switch to Banshee just for this Quote: - At Banshee we are purists, and like to ‘earn our turns’.
  • 3 1
 E bikes are fun.
  • 1 0
 evil has not realised an e-bike yet. why did you not interview them yet?
  • 1 0
 I have a banshee bike with electric kit LIFT MTB !
  • 6 6
 Quite Evil from pinkbike not to include all brands.
  • 7 0
 They already know that Evil has one on the way
  • 1 0
 You reckon?
  • 3 0
 @brass-munky: there were spy shots on here the other day
  • 1 0
 @Captain1Eye: reckon is an evil pun
  • 2 1
 Revel?
  • 2 1
 What about Gamux?
  • 1 2
 I don't even want to imagine riding an @cotic-bikes aluminum e-bike. It's everything wrong with their current image.
  • 1 1
 @notoutsideceo will we see a pinkybike.com in the future?
  • 6 2
 Unlikely! We are making PB the primary online destination for eMTBs! Stay tuned for more eBike content. Be safe be well, Incognito Robin
  • 2 2
 Why can't I ever find my comment?
  • 1 0
 Easy. It's highlighted in a darker shade.
  • 2 2
 Does Transition have a e-bike?
  • 3 5
 Is anyone discussing/debating/railing on about the environmental impacts of shuttling trails and whether e-bikes reduce that source of CO2 emissions?
  • 2 1
 Sure. Say 8 gallons of gasoline over the course of a season Vs say 4 riders on 600wh batteries.... a single 18650 is 10wh at best and 3.5 usually . So that's minimum 60 18650 batteries. From there our life cycle assessment also has to consider 1). Emissions associated with building the batteries; 2). Emissions associated with charging and discharging the batteries during normal operations; and 3). Emissions associated with recycling or disposing of the batteries. Once we have that stat for a single 18650 cell we can calculate the overall emissions for a bike battery
  • 1 0
 Transition: TFOH!
  • 4 5
 Banshee winning votes. earn those turns boys! next rig will be coming from you's
  • 26 27
 "At Banshee we are purists, and like to ‘earn our turns’."

Yawn...
  • 13 15
 “We are purists”
Aka we can’t afford to make one but would totally do it otherwise
  • 1 1
 Lame.
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