Final Results: Leogang DH World Cup 2019

Jun 9, 2019 at 1:02
by Ed Spratt  
Having Mitch Ropelato back between the World Cup downhill tapes is great news for the photographers on the hill.

The results are in from an exciting day of racing in Leogang. In the Elite Men's race, Loic Bruni would take his second win of 2019 and would continue the French domination of the World Cup. Greg Minnaar would put down an amazing run that was so close to taking the top spot over Bruni. Troy Brosnan would be the only other rider to get with a second of the Frenchman's winning run and would get another podium finish in 2019. Danny Hart would put down a great run but would still be nearly two seconds off the pace. Despite his still injured ankle Aaron Gwin would prove his prowess on the Austrian track with a solid fifth-place finish.

In the Elite Women, Tracey Hannah would be crowned victorious with a commanding lead over the rest of the field. Privateer Nina Hoffmann would get her best ever result with a second place finish, just over two seconds behind Hannah. Kate Weatherly would cross the line third 9.360 behind, Marine Cabirou would come close to a top three finish but a crash would secure her a fourth-place finish. Veronika Widmann would complete the Elite Women's podium over 12 seconds off the leader's pace. Rachel Atherton would crash out on her race run and would finish 15th.

The Junior racing would be back to the usual suspects with Thibaut Daprela and Vali Holl both taking wins on the revised Leogang course. Vali Holl would dominate the Junior Women with a time that would have secured third place in the Elite category. Anna Newkirk and Mille Johnset would be within a second of each other but their times would sit almost 20 seconds off Holl's unstoppable run. In the Junior Men, Kye A'Hern would sit almost two seconds behind Daprela and would have a gap of over a second back to third-placed rider Matteo Iniguez.


Elite Men

1st. Loic Bruni: 3:16.132
2nd. Greg Minnaar: +0.324
3rd. Troy Brosnan: +0.746
4th. Danny Hart: +1.994
5th. Aaron Gwin: +2.418


Elite Women

1st. Tracey Hannah: 3:42.107
2nd. Nina Hoffmann: +2.435
3rd. Kate Weatherly: +9.360
4th. Marine Cabirou: +9.564
5th. Veronika Widmann: +12.085



Junior Men

1st. Thibaut Daprela: 3:23.950
2nd. Kye A'Hern: +1.963
3rd. Matteo Iniguez: +3.125
4th. Jamie Edmondson: +4.118
5th. Patrick Laffey: +4.829


Junior Women

1st. Vali Holl: 3:49.363
2nd. Anna Newkirk: +18.749
3rd. Mille Johnset: +19.266
4th. Cassie Voysey: +35.377
5th. Lauryne Chappaz: +36.342


Full Results
Elite Men



Elite Women



Junior Men



Junior Women



Live Race Updates:

2:00 am PDT The Elite Women will be on track from 3:30 am PDT // 12:30 CEST // 11:30 am BST // 22:30 NZST // 20:30 AEST

3:30 am PDT The first Elite Woman is on track.

3:34 am PDT Paula Zibasa sets a time of 4:08.478

3:35 am PDT Alia Marcellini goes nearly four seconds faster.

3:36 am PDT Sian A'Hern had a slow start but managed to make up a ton of time at the bottom of the track and goes into first, five seconds faster.

3:37 am PDT Emilie Siegenthaler is green most of the way down but seems to have lost a bit of time in the second half of the track and only goes 1.578 seconds faster.

3:38 am PDT Kate Weatherly had a great run and puts over six seconds into Siegenthaler's time.

3:43 am PDT Veronika Widmann is only a second back at split two.

3:45 am PDT Kate Weatherly holds her lead as Widmann goes into 2nd nearly three seconds off the pace.

3:45 am PDT Monika Hrastnik looks to be way off the pace. Nearly seven seconds back at split three.

3:47 am PDT Hrastnik goes into fifth.

3:49 am PDT Carina Cappellari couldn't top Weatherly and moves into fourth position.

3:50 am PDT Mariana Salazar is nearly four seconds off the current leader's pace at split three.

3:51 am PDT Salazar crosses the line in sixth place.

3:53 am PDT Camille Balanche sits in third place after going nearly four seconds back.

3:53 am PDT Raphaela Richter is less than a second back at split one.

3:54 am PDT Richter is up at split two!

3:55 am PDT Loses over two seconds on the jumps.

3:56 am PDT Richter loses more time and now sits in third.

3:56 am PDT Marine Cabirou is up by 1.480 at the first split.

3:58 am PDT Cabirou is nearly five seconds up!

3:59 am PDT She gains more time at split four, over five seconds up.

4:00 am PDT Marine Cabirou goes down!

4:00 am PDT She comes across the line just 0.204 back.

4:01 am PDT Nina Hoffmann is up at split one.

4:02 am PDT She extends her lead to four seconds at split two!

4:02 am PDT After the jumps she extends her lead by half a second.

4:03 am PDT Hoffmann find another second by split four.

4:04 am PDT Nina Hoffmann goes into first after an amazing run. Nearly seven seconds faster than Weatherly.

4:05 am PDT Rachel Atherton goes down!

4:06 am PDT She is 22 seconds back at split two.

4:06 am PDT Can Tracey Hannah take the win today?

4:08 am PDT Atherton goes into 14th position.

4:08 am PDT Tracey Hannah is just over a second up at the first split.

4:09 am PDT She gains another second!

4:10 am PDT Hannah loses time at the third split.

4:11 am PDT Loses even more time at split four.

4:11 am PDT Tracey Hannah takes the win in Leogang!

4:14 am PDT Elite Women top five: 1st. Tracey Hannah // 2nd. Nina Hoffmann // 3rd. Kate Weatherly // 4th. Marine Cabirou // 5th. Veronika Widmann //

4:15 am PDT The Elite Men will be on track in 15 minutes.

4:33 am PDT Phil Atwill sets the first time of the day: 3:26.125

4:34 am PDT Florent Payet goes nearly four seconds faster and into the hot seat.

4:38 am PDT Charlie Hatton is up at the first split.

4:40 am PDT Hatton goes just under a second back on Payet.

4:45 am PDT George Brannigan goes into second over a second off the current leader's pace.

4:48 am PDT Alex Marin was up at the first split but has dropped back slightly at the next one.

4:49 am PDT Wyn Master is over two seconds off the pace at split two.

4:50 am PDT Alex Marin is back in the green at the fourth split.

4:50 am PDT Marin loses a few hundredths of a second in the sprint to the finish and comes across the line second.

4:52 am PDT George Gannicott is nearly a second up at split one.

4:54 am PDT Gannicott loses a ton of time at the third split. Michael Jones is looking to be on a great run, 0.747 up at the second split.

4:56 am PDT After over 20 riders no one has found an answer to Florent Payet's run.

5:03 am PDT With the first 30 riders completing their race runs this is the current top five: 1st. Florent Payet // 2nd. Alex Marin // 3rd. Jack Moir // 4th. Loris Revelli // 5th. Baptiste Pierron //

5:13 am PDT Reece Wilson goes nearly a second faster at split one.

5:13 am PDT Wilson is still up at the second split.

5:14 am PDT He has extended his lead to over half a second at the next split.

5:15 am PDT Reece Wilson goes 1.582 seconds faster than Payet!

5:17 am PDT Matt Walker (GB) is over half a second faster at split two.

5:19 am PDT Walker drops back at the third split but gains some time over Wilson by split four.

5:19 am PDT Matt Walker goes into the hot seat.

5:21 am PDT Charlie Harrison is just off the pace at the second split.

5:23 am PDT Harrison goes into the hot seat by 1.064

5:24 am PDT Luca Shaw is just under half a second back at split two.

5:24 am PDT Shaw is green at the next split!

5:26 am PDT Luca Shaw loses time at the bottom and goes into second.

5:27 am PDT Dean Lucas couldn't quite keep up with the leaders and slots into fifth.

5:29 am PDT 20 riders are left to go in Leogang, here is the current top five: 1st. Charlie Harrison // 2nd. Luca Shaw // 3rd. Matt Walker // 4th. Reece Wilson // 5th. Dean Lucas //

5:31 am PDT Brook MacDonald is fastest at split two.

5:32 am PDT MacDonald is still up at the fourth split, can he keep it going until the finish line?

5:33 am PDT He crosses the line third, 0.734 back.

5:34 am PDT Gee Atherton looks to be a way off the pace.

5:36 am PDT Atherton goes 24th.

5:38 am PDT Finn Iles is over four seconds back from the current leader.

5:41 am PDT Remi Thirion looks to be gaining on Harrison's time.

5:42 am PDT Thirion goes into fifth place.

5:46 am PDT Bernard Kerr is 0.214 back at the first split.

5:47 am PDT Bernard Kerr looks to have crashed.

5:48 am PDT Kerr crosses the line 44th.

5:49 am PDT Ed Masters is up at the second split!

5:51 am PDT Masters loses a second in split four.

5:51 am PDT Ed Masters goes into seventh.

5:56 am PDT Huge crash for Laurie Greenland.

5:58 am PDT Loic Bruni is nearly a second up at the first split.

5:59 am PDT Bruni extends his lead at the second split.

6:00 am PDT He builds his lead to over two seconds at the next split!

6:01 am PDT Loic Bruni goes fastest by 3.201 seconds after an incredible run.

6:07 am PDT Mark Wallace crosses the line fourth, 3.785 back.

6:08 am PDT Greg Williamson is over a second back at split two.

6:09 am PDT Williamson looks to be losing more time as he goes down the course. Over three seconds back at the last split.

6:10 am PDT Greg Williamson goes into seventh position.

6:11 am PDT Aaron Gwin is in touch at the first split.

6:11 am PDT He drops further back at the next split but still within a second of Bruni.

6:13 am PDT Gwin is within two seconds of Loic Bruni's time.

6:13 am PDT Aaron Gwin goes into second place, just 2.418 back.

6:14 am PDT Danny Hart is up at the first split.

6:15 am PDT Hart loses a second at the next split.

6:16 am PDT He crosses the line in second place.

6:20 am PDT Connor Fearon had a great run and crosses the line in fifth place.

6:22 am PDT Jure Zabjek goes over two seconds off the pace at the second split.

6:24 am PDT Zabjek finishes in seventh, only 3.526 off Bruni's time.

6:24 am PDT Amaury Pierron is over a second off the pace by the first split.

6:26 am PDT Pierron gains some time back at the third split.

6:27 am PDT He crosses the line in fourth position.

6:28 am PDT Troy Brosnan is only 0.020 off the current leader after the first split.

6:29 am PDT He maintains his speed at the next split.

6:29 am PDT After the jumps he is still in touch, only 0.200 back.

6:30 am PDT Brosnan drops further back at the next split.

6:31 am PDT Troy Brosnan goes 2nd, less than a second behind Bruni.

6:31 am PDT Loris Vergier is nearly a second back.

6:33 am PDT Vergier gains time by the third split.

6:34 am PDT Loris Vergier goes down at the bottom of the track and crosses the line in 18th place.

6:35 am PDT Can Greg Minnaar stop the French Domination?

6:35 am PDT Minnaar is just off the pace at split one.

6:36 am PDT He drops further off Bruni's time by the second split.

6:36 am PDT Minnaar gains a little bit of time after the jumps.

6:37 am PDT He manages to close the gap to just 0.259 at split four!

6:37 am PDT Loic Bruni wins in Leogang.




The UCI currently follows IOC rules that transgender athletes must have total testosterone levels below 10 nmol/L during and for at least 12 months before competition.

The debates about transgender athletes, inclusion, and fairness are contentious. As these conversations unfold, please remember that there are other people at the end of your words. We expect the comments on Pinkbike to be respectful and constructive.

Specifically, please don’t violate our terms of use, which state that any hate speech or personal attacks will not be tolerated. Transgender advocates, social media platforms, and other media companies consider misgendering and ‘deadnaming’ (using someone’s former name) as slurs and personal attacks.

The aim is not to censor conversations or ideas, but just like other slurs and personal attacks, misgendering and deadnaming are not welcome on our platform. Violations of Pinkbike’s terms of use may result in comment deletions, suspensions, or bans. Any harassment, bullying, or incitements to violence will result in lifetime bans from the site.



423 Comments

  • + 189
 Time to sign Nina to the Syndicate
  • + 13
 Hopefully they are giving her some support on the side
  • + 32
 Next year there is going to be a fight between teams to get her.
  • + 43
 She is fast and comes across as a genuinely nice person. Also good to finally see a German downhill rider again who can compete with the fastest. It’s been a while since Jürgen Beneke, Regina Stiefl and early-career Markus Klausmann.
  • + 3
 @mbikes1: Yeah looking at the SCS Instagram I think she gets supported Smile Would be ace to see her signed to the team!
  • + 5
 Literally the best value for fantasy this whole circuit
  • + 8
 @fjm35: Oh the great Jürgen... I have built myself a Manitou Team replica of his 1993 WCH bike... those were the times!!!
  • + 4
 @Davichin: Indeed. I got into mountain biking as a kid in 1994, and Beneke was my hero. I craved that Manitou bike.
  • + 145
 Well done Trace!!!
  • + 8
 Right on the limit but no further, great stuff
  • + 28
 so stroked for Trace. Would love to see her take the over all
  • + 3
 The Mullet bike strikes again!
  • + 11
 Yay Tracy!! Even Rachel was stoked for her. And how about Connor Fearon placing top ten. Finding some pace this year.
  • - 13
flag jorgeposada (Jun 9, 2019 at 11:18) (Below Threshold)
 France pretty much has DH on lock right now. Maybe there is something to tight pants and dry humping your friend after a win.
  • + 1
 Yeah mate, good weekend overall for the aussies in all classes @camm67:
  • + 1
 @Teepee146: Hell ya was pulling for Brosnan, would be surprised if he doesn't take a win this season.
  • + 1
 I remember clearly seeing this one.....
youtu.be/fK1mRsMZDN8
  • + 1
 NAILD it!
  • + 127
 Don’t wanna be negative on the coverage but we’re missing EVERYTHING! every crash has been off camera, and everywhere they’re losing or gaining time is off camera.
  • + 18
 Agree, massive gaps in footage! It's frustrating.
  • - 4
flag mbray14 (Jun 9, 2019 at 7:34) (Below Threshold)
 Know you’re not trying to be negative, but it is free.
  • + 42
 @mbray14: free but full of advertising.. is it really free?
  • - 11
flag lognar (Jun 9, 2019 at 7:58) (Below Threshold)
 not a very exciting race to watch with the limited camera coverage. turn... turn... stump... stump... stump.. jump...jump.. turn... root.. turn... finish
  • + 6
 looks like it was that first stump hop sending people OTB like it was all practice, there really should have been a camera there
  • + 5
 @lognar: yes...it is
  • + 11
 @lognar: still wayyy better than cable which you pay for and spends 1/3rd of your time pushing ads onto you.... And I'd watch red bull ads over penis pill ads any day of the week...
  • + 5
 @lognar: I guess free all depends on what you define as free. I mean you pay for the internet connection you use to watch it with... you also get cookies from their website, which tell other services what you like and therefore generally push you to buy things... and as you mentioned, there's the ads.

I guess you could watch it on library wifi, but even there your taxes are still paying for the internet connection.

It's all relative.. but yeah, the coverage sucked.
  • - 6
flag tacklingdummy (Jun 9, 2019 at 13:00) (Below Threshold)
 They don't want people to see how badly the track was set up. Lots of crashes. Too many.
  • + 3
 That zipline over the track should have been commandeered for full coverage of the top qualifiers
  • + 1
 I can't argue with the off camera crashes but to me the camera coverage of this Mt is some of my favorite of any of them.
  • + 86
 The denim destroyer won this race. I don’t care what the clock says.
  • + 10
 Italian, so probably jeggings.
  • + 1
 Italians invented jeans in the 14th century
  • + 2
 @RedRedRe: Yep Genova. Their sartorial sensibilities have gone... downhill since then though.
  • + 3
 @BenPea: So is it true that French feel a sense of inferiority towards Italy? Afterall the most famous thing in France is an Italian painting.
  • + 2
 @RedRedRe: Can't say it's entered my mind, but it's an interesting idea. Is that what you believe or are you just interested in wasting both my time and yours with kindergarten-level cultural numb-nuttery?
  • + 1
 @RedRedRe: Italians invented jeans then Americans came along made them thicker, and put lots of extras on top and then began mass producing them
  • + 1
 With his phone in his pocket!
  • + 2
 @RedRedRe: Jacob Davis invented jeans
  • + 75
 Vali Höll must have read the comments about Anna Newkirk closing in on her after last weekend
  • + 5
 Well, its her playground aswell. That might help Wink
  • + 12
 @jodek: she said in a video she never rides there. That could have just been mind games though.
  • + 8
 She had a crash as Fort Bill though
  • + 4
 @Davec85: there was still talk about the split times. Newkirk was quite close even without the crash
  • + 17
 Bloody Höll! Wink

Seriously, that's not a gap she opened up between herself and the field, it's more like a full-on Alpine valley. That time would have comfortably had her in 3rd in the women's elite. May she have a long happy career and keep impressing the hell out of us.
  • + 2
 @betsie: she grew up riding there, that'll always be a bonus
  • + 1
 @leopaul: not this week though. Not even close. Vali mentioned the stress of the streak getting to her... Now we will see how she moves on from it. So far so good!
  • + 2
 Vali Holl would have placed third in the women's amazing
  • + 71
 It's just not fair on the women.

Well done to Kate for her race run, but it's just not fair on the women.

What happened to fair competition in women's sport?
  • + 37
 @freeridejerk888: @freeridejerk888: Regardless of your thoughts on trans people competing in the women's field, calling them "it" is disgusting. Then saying you have nothing against lgtbq, what a joke.
  • + 69
 "popcorn... popcorn, get ya popcorn here!"
  • - 14
flag mbray14 (Jun 9, 2019 at 7:38) (Below Threshold)
 @bobochobo: Cheers. His name fits. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but denigrating to express it is lazy.
  • - 20
flag chris-adam-media (Jun 9, 2019 at 7:39) (Below Threshold)
 @bobochobo: agreed, what an ignorant c*nt
  • - 6
flag Adamanddan (Jun 9, 2019 at 7:45) (Below Threshold)
 Behave read into it a bit more
  • - 27
flag Adamanddan (Jun 9, 2019 at 7:46) (Below Threshold)
 @bobochobo: dickhead
  • + 11
 @bobochobo was not ment to call you a dickhead was ment for freeriderjerk what a waster
  • + 50
 Listening to the live feed every comment made towards Kate is super PC, must be tricky for rob
  • - 17
flag southoftheborder (Jun 9, 2019 at 7:58) (Below Threshold)
 @bobochobo: I'm not sure what's more disgusting, if the comment itself or the 12 guys who liked it.
  • - 17
flag cuban-b (Jun 9, 2019 at 7:58) (Below Threshold)
 @Larkey1 Surely all the women out there must thank you for arguing for fairness on their behalf! How feminist of you.
  • + 7
 @freeridejerk888: You don't have to personally insult the transgender cheaters to point out the fact that they are transgender cheaters. By personally insulting the transgender cheaters you give them victim status.

But the biggest harm the transgender cheaters do is to their own allies. By manipulating transgender status to cheat in sport in such an obvious manner they harm the reputation of the entire lgbt population.
  • - 17
flag Brklss (Jun 9, 2019 at 8:13) (Below Threshold)
 Idiot.
  • + 16
 Interesting read on the topic:
Gender identity and sport: is the playing field level?
bjsm.bmj.com/content/39/10/695

postpubertal effects of testosterone, do they give an unfair advantage that can't be reversed by estrogen supplementation? Also the olympics requires 2 years of estrogen therapy before an athlete is allowed to switch gender in competition.
  • + 45
 Womens category has become a joke with (ex-)Males starting in it
  • - 4
flag Lasse2000 (Jun 9, 2019 at 8:39) (Below Threshold)
 @freeridejerk888: YOU Sir have serious problems. Show yourself out please.
  • - 4
flag Lasse2000 (Jun 9, 2019 at 8:40) (Below Threshold)
 @Ailmer: what are you afraid of?
  • + 23
 Agree . What's the point having a category?!

@Ailmer:
  • - 35
flag seplavy (Jun 9, 2019 at 8:57) (Below Threshold)
 @pinkbike Gonna enforce those ban rules on @ailmer, @flowcheckers, @freeridejerk888, & @larkey1?
  • + 28
 @bobochobo: I admit I'm on the fence as far as this topic is. I fully agree with you, bobochobo, but still just don't like it in principle. Let's just say someone like Connor Fearon chose that path... no woman would be within 20 seconds of 1st, ever! I have no answers, just questions. And a whole lot of respect for the LGTBQ community, a community that my own brother is a part of, and one of my favorite people on earth. Such a difficult topic and a slippery slope for sure.
  • + 37
 @seplavy: Whatever, this is a discussion worth having consider that racing careers and the image of the sport are being compromised by the obvious cheating. I have personally insulted nobody and its up to the fans to call out the cheating since the uci is too politically correct.
  • + 29
 did anyone see Greg Minnaar’s bottom section though? Wow.
  • - 10
flag seplavy (Jun 9, 2019 at 9:26) (Below Threshold)
 @Flowcheckers: You are factually incorrect. Trans people have been eligible to compete at an Olympic level for 15-years. The policy enacted by the IOC/UCI was after years of research, review, comment period, and legal tests. You are not an expert on this topic as far as I can ascertain. Your comments are transphobic.
  • - 41
flag seplavy (Jun 9, 2019 at 9:28) (Below Threshold)
 @pinkbike are you going to enforce your own posted rules. @lovetheride990 is misgendering a trans athlete.
  • - 13
flag mgolder (Jun 9, 2019 at 9:31) (Below Threshold)
 @Flowcheckers: Ah so you're as big a scumbag as freeridejerk is, just you tried to be funny with it for some reason.
  • + 54
 @seplavy: I'm factually incorrect about nothing. You can't tell me that a male riding a bike his entire childhood (with more testosterone) who then takes pills to produce estrogen isn't going to benefit from training and developing as a male most of their life. Your comments are politicallycorrectphobic, lol.
  • + 37
 Below is a quote right from the article you're responding to. So basically, don't go and bother Kate, Pinkbike or even the UCI with your "science". Drop by IOC, explain why you're so very right and propose a change in the regulations. Until then, shut up. Kate is racing according to the regulations set by the governing body and both her national championship title as well as her podium here are well deserved. You can choose to continue this discussion but watch your language or you'll face a well deserved ban from Pinkbike.

"The UCI currently follows IOC rules that transgender athletes must have total testosterone levels below 10 nmol/L during and for at least 12 months before competition.

The debates about transgender athletes, inclusion, and fairness are contentious. As these conversations unfold, please remember that there are other people at the end of your words. We expect the comments on Pinkbike to be respectful and constructive.

Specifically, please don’t violate our terms of use, which state that any hate speech or personal attacks will not be tolerated. Transgender advocates, social media platforms, and other media companies consider misgendering and ‘deadnaming’ (using someone’s former name) as slurs and personal attacks.

The aim is not to censor conversations or ideas, but just like other slurs and personal attacks, misgendering and deadnaming are not welcome on our platform. Violations of Pinkbike’s terms of use may result in comment deletions, suspensions, or bans. Any harassment, bullying, or incitements to violence will result in lifetime bans from the site.
"
  • + 4
 @thenotoriousmic: awesome flow and style. As Claudio says, watching him ride so smoothly leads you into thinking he's slow. But damn, the stopwatch doesn't lie.
  • + 28
 I agree with you, it's stupid and unfair to the rest of the girls, we can argue about identity, but phisically she Is a man, a man competing against woman. If you look tje times, in men category she doesnt have the times to qualify for sunday.
  • + 4
 @southoftheborder: nothing looked slow about that run. From the motorway onwards he was on another level. Be keen to find out what happened up top. A lot of the riders seemed to be having issues on the top section where they didn’t film.
  • - 29
flag seplavy (Jun 9, 2019 at 10:08) (Below Threshold)
 @Flowcheckers: By posting this you prove that you do not know anything on the topic nor want to actually be educated on it. @pinkbike, step up and delete these comments.
  • + 73
 How do you think Marine feels? She misses out on a WC top 3 by .26 seconds to weatherly. The emotions must be pretty strong because yeah weatherly was a middle of the pack male DHer at best and now she is podiuming world cups a year after transitioning?? It's a tough subject for sure, you want and need to be inclusive but who gets impacted negatively? .
  • - 65
flag seplavy (Jun 9, 2019 at 10:29) (Below Threshold)
 @ianswilson815: no one is impacted. The only ones making any hay about Kate are the blowhards are transphobes here on the internet.
  • + 88
 @seplavy: To be honest, calling everyone a Transphobe probably isn't the best way to get your point across. People are entitled to disagree with you, it doesn't make them all Transphobes.
  • - 76
flag seplavy (Jun 9, 2019 at 10:40) (Below Threshold)
 @Davec85: It is science not opinion. That is 100% what is transphobic about said comments. If you don’t want to be labeled a transphobe then don’t say transphobic things. It’s not that difficult. You don’t play nice with racists, homophobes, anti-semites, misogynists, or transphobes. You call that out when it happens and you don’t let it slide. @pinkbike posted a very detailed warning that this content will be considered a violation of their TOS/posting rules. Go back, read it, and show yourselves to the door!
  • + 4
 @bobochobo: but when trans people want to be called "they" "them" or "xi" we're supposed to play along like " oh...yeah...I'm so "woke" I'm gonna pretend that's perfectly acceptable to expect of me" gosh, I hope SJW's still like me!
  • + 42
 @vinay: at some point it will implode and cause a issue which world sport needs to address and the truth is transgender need a class of its own to be clear precise and remove any friction which through sports is building.
It’s a odd situation to face having a physical & drug manipulation to be legal to compete?
And the response of other female racers was very off towards Kate on live feed pictures tell a thousand words and all that, so it’s not happy situation behind the scenes

It’s a mess
  • + 1
 @seplavy: and your opinion is not science. You think this is settled?! Theres so much bullshit surrounding this kids actually think this is an option and its "cool".
  • + 0
 @vinay: deadnaming. Cuz...its "science"
  • + 41
 guys, girls, everyone. lets just bin the timers, all ride down together and have a big group photo at the end. no winners, no losers.. everyone invited, everyone included. rainbow race tape. oh, hold on, can't say 'race'..
  • + 0
 Well, so many years that Rachel Atherton is competing as a woman whereas everybody knows that ``she`` is actually Steve Peat disguised in woman. Fake hair, a bit of make-up...: the trick is working perfectly and nobody seems to be wrong about that, so come on!!!
  • + 19
 @BaldBilly: I agree, I'm probably in a similar position about whether trans athletes competing in women's categories is 'fair' or 'right'. I don't know and I don't understand enough about it to say so.

But I'll make no excuses for becoming a keyboard warrior when people think it's acceptable to dehumanise others by calling them "it". I think that crosses the line and must be called out.
  • - 24
flag cuban-b (Jun 9, 2019 at 11:12) (Below Threshold)
 It’s so obvious the argument isn’t really about fairness in sports. Nobody wants to say it but I will: allowing transgender athletes to compete in the women’s category sets the precedent for an open pro racing category (no separation of gender). Y’all are just afraid to lost to a woman Smile
  • - 2
 @Davec85: it’s difficult to take someone seriously if they say they don’t have a problem with (said group) and then insult them. It invalidates their argument.
  • + 10
 @southoftheborder: can’t believe you just assumed the 12 likes were all from ‘guys’
  • + 21
 @cuban-b: Hmm do you not see that this will lead to women never winning anything ever again? If it were an open category it'll be 30-40 men followed by the fastest women followed by the rest of the average/mixed field. Is this what everyone wants, for women to no longer get on the podium (because we are all the same)?
  • + 16
 @bobochobo: Dude its basic biology, read up on the human makeup of a male and a female, fairly simple stuff tbh.
  • - 1
 @Imabigboy82: Why don’t we ask the women that question? I am not qualified to answer on their behalf.
  • + 26
 Is it tho? What do you call them? When you take a hair and run a dna test it comes up as male. So why can they race in the (xx) category. I'm an a*shole for saying something that isn't pc. Get over it @bobochobo:
  • + 11
 @ianswilson815: but didn't she race in the men's for a couple of years whilst also undergoing hormone therapy, before racing in the women's?
  • + 31
 @cuban-b: Plenty of female athletes have already spoken out, if this chick wins the women's DH worldcup I am certain we will see people not bothering to race any longer. No protection at all from UCI, zero protection and its sad that they are pandering.
  • - 4
flag cuban-b (Jun 9, 2019 at 11:53) (Below Threshold)
 @Imabigboy82: my whole confusion is, where were all u guys during the fight for women’s rights? Now all of a sudden you’re coming to the defense of women solely because of a transgender athlete? “Fairness to women” argument doesn’t hold any water in this context.... is all I’m saying.
  • + 17
 @cuban-b: I think at least in terms of DH racing, men have been massively supportive of women tbh.
  • - 4
flag cuban-b (Jun 9, 2019 at 12:00) (Below Threshold)
 @Imabigboy82: 100% agree with you in terms of overall support for women’s racing has never been better. By “all u guys” I meant all the people supposedly arguing for fairness in women’s racing posting in this thread.
  • + 20
 @enduroFactory: To that end.. I just have to say, and maybe I'm the only one that feels this way, but Tracey Hannah's interaction with Weatherly at the end there was incredibly uncomfortable to watch.

@seplavy: I didn't get to read a lot of the removed comments, but surely the term "ex-male" is not phobic in any way? Where exactly do you draw the line?
And while we're on the subject, there's been at least 2 personal attacks in this thread alone, with absolutely no consequences. Why is no one crying out for bans here?

I'll keep my opinion to myself on the rest...
  • + 1
 @Tadams113: fair point. I honestly thought of writing "users" instead.
  • + 22
 @ssteve: I just watched it back, my word its awkward. There is zero love or respect there. In that regard I feel sorry for Weatherly tbh but we can blame the UCI for allowing this to happen in the first place.
  • + 16
 @Imabigboy82: it’s not the uci fault they’d get hung out to dry in this current climate if they even suggested foul play as would any of the other competitors assuming they actually felt that way. If you actually believe there’s an advantage to being transgender. If you want to blame someone, blame the person turning up to race knowing they have an unfair advantage.
  • + 3
 @Imabigboy82: IOC to blame
  • + 0
 @thenotoriousmic: thanks for the perspective
  • + 12
 I know this controversy exists in road cycling with Rachel McKinnon, but I didn't realise it had spread to mountain biking - I am knocked out by this!

If she wants to ride fine - no issues with me - welcome to the community - if she wants to race???????

Lets have a trans category.

UCI can't you do anything?

Sort this out before the Mtb community takes this sport away from you!!
  • - 1
 @Imabigboy82: sorry didn’t mean to tag you.
  • + 20
 There must be some advantage. You rarely, if any, see any female to male athletes even come close to male wins in any sport. It’s mainly male to female changes where you see all the disparity
  • + 14
 @Andingham: Yes I believe she did race mens while transitioning, but look at results. In 2017 NZ nationals she raced in the Senior Men division and placed 9th with a time that would have put her last in the Pro Mens division, 5 seconds behind the next finisher. Even if you go back further to 2013-2016 she was never finishing higher than mid-pack in open or senior divisions, not even pro. Since then, in 2018 and 2019 she has taken consecutive pro national champs victories in Elite Women division.
  • - 1
 @bobochobo: the fact that you and 44 other people don’t understand basic grammar is hilarious
  • + 16
 @Flowcheckers: you're incorrect on the main point of your argument. 'Cheating'

UCI set the rules. She races within the rules, there fore no cheating.

Simple.
  • + 29
 None of this is as important as Finn's scrub.
  • - 2
 Reading up about Kate, she's had a very hard time over the last few years and I think it's great she can now compete. Whatever your belief is about her competing one thing is for sure:to compete at this level you have to be incredibly dedicated, you have to train hard and you have to have talent which clearly she does
  • - 18
flag enduroNZ (Jun 9, 2019 at 15:14) (Below Threshold)
 @Fuads: that's actually not true physically she is a female now, because her testosterone levels are at the level of a woman.
  • + 5
 I object for selfish reasons. I, don't want to watch trans compete against females. I'd support in any way I could any resistance from the women, but it's their fight.
About all I can do now is not watch the Live or Replays on any website from now on...I'll now wait and grab a torrent. No more 'clicks' will be registered from this guy. An insignificant impact/boycott I'm sure...but about all I can do from here...???
  • + 21
 The UCI set the parameters that a trans rider need a testosterone level below 10 nmol/L.
The problem I have with that is the common accepted levels for testosterone in a biological female are between 0.5 and 2.5.
Say Rachel has a level of 2.5, should she not be able to take testosterone to get her to 9?
A common male testosterone range is 9-30.
  • - 8
flag Thatslavintho (Jun 9, 2019 at 16:21) (Below Threshold)
 I’ve done extensive study on this subject and I believe you are misrepresenting the actual scientific research on this topic ...I hope due to confirmation bias rather than maliciously spreading false information because you believe that it will support your cause.
  • + 17
 @enduroNZ: : shes the same like a female that did anabolic steroids for 17 years. you cant deny thats a advantage
  • + 9
 @Flowcheckers:
I strongly recommend reading the linked article earlier on in this thread.
It provides both historical context as well as analysis of the current state of scientific understanding of any potential advantages arising from gender realignment therapy.

In fact I recommend everyone who sincerely wishes to take part in an informed debate do so. It is an excellent primer.
  • + 3
 @lognar: Thanks for that. Well worth the time to read.
  • + 12
 also worth a read is the study Rachel McKinnon cited as evidence that testosterone levels are irrelevant to athletic performance, particularly in women’s sport ... which upon reading says the exact opposite:

bjsm.bmj.com/content/51/17/1309

Disclaimer: I am merely reiterating scientific literature and not expressing my opinion one way or another. Coming from a background and education in STEM fields, my main concern is that the actual conclusions of the research on this topic are not misrepresented to people who may not have the educational background to be discerning. The internet has a mass of non-biased information on this topic, I hope people do some digging on their own.
  • + 7
 @lognar: Even prepubescent males have more lean body mass, lower fat, and more power. There's also some debate as to if the athletic advantages of men are simply due to testosterone given the natural overlap that sometimes occurs in men and women. Which also raises the issue that having a certain level of testosterone does not make you male or female.
  • + 4
 @jeremy3220: very true. there have been cases of women being banned from competition based on naturally occurring high testosterone levels, which is ridiculous IMO.

@Thatslavintho interesting data there. Correlation between free testosterone and performance in women but not men. Without being able to access the whole article, I can't tell if it's a good study or not. Might have to dig around on this more.
  • - 12
flag Adamanddan (Jun 9, 2019 at 20:03) (Below Threshold)
 @vinay: agree her kates levels are like 0.6 so no where near any of the men's people just jump on the band wagon, I speak to her every week, top lass
  • + 9
 go watch any number of US military videos of men vs women in hand to hand combat since they integrated troops.... you’ll see ladies
From left to right getting an a$$ whooping. But go ahead and ignore physiology and embrace emotions ya idiots.
  • - 1
 @preach: how is this relevant to trans women in athletics? The argument here is about whether not hormone conversion is enough to level the athletic advantage a trans woman had prior to conversion over other phenotypically natural women.
  • - 6
flag preach (Jun 9, 2019 at 20:23) (Below Threshold)
 @lognar: dude hello, trans women are women. Wake the F up
  • + 4
 Sorry continuing to realize that sarcasm is lost online
  • - 1
 @preach: so how does that have to do with men fighting women?
  • + 11
 bruh whatever you’re born as is what you are. Prove scientifically otherwise
  • - 1
 @preach: you gotta lay that sarcasm on thick bro.
  • + 0
 @preach: go look up kleinfeter syndrome. What about androgen insensitivity? What are those people classified as?
  • + 15
 @MonkeyBadgerBoy: Just because some actions aren't breaking any rules or laws doesn't mean they aren't unethical and morally repugnant.

Cheating is cheating and manipulating your gender status to be able to compete against women is obvious and blatant cheating. She went from being a mid pack regional pro to a World Cup contender. Nobody can defend that, it's obvious cheating regardless of what the rules say. I don't doubt that transgender athletes are sincere in their desire to change sexes, but to then use it in a way to gain a competitive advantage that compromises the integrity of women's sports and compromises careers is disgusting in my book of ethics.

I'm not sure what the solution is but they really are ruining the integrity of women's sports for their own personal benefit in a very blatant and narcissistic manner. I view it as narcissistic because they obviously want the attention of the controversy they are creating. This isn't Jackie Robinson breaking barriers for the cause of equality, this is people altering their bodies with science for purely personal desires, and then pretending everything is normal even though they've changed sexes! Where is the shame in the sponsors and defenders of these cheaters?
  • + 5
 @lognar: tell me more about science not feelings and symptoms. It’s also called “gender dysphoria” (well for the last 100 years)
  • + 5
 @Flowcheckers: you’re saying that this person must win so badly that she changed her whole identity, and changed her body just to win. Really she identifies as a male, likes sex with women, but just has to win so badly that the sexchange is worth changing everything else about her identity. Just to win?
  • - 3
 @lognar: yep.’exactly what we are saying
  • + 3
 @cuban-b: this is how I weed out who I can be friends with
  • + 18
 I keep hearing about men winning sprints and bike races, but not about women turning into men and winning men's sprints or bike races. What's the explanation for that from those that argue a man can change sexes to a woman and compete fairly in women's sports?
  • + 12
 @westeast: don’t bring common sense to this agenda when all say the hormones are irrelevant
  • + 10
 @lognar: No, I actually said that "I don't doubt that transgender athletes are sincere in their desire to change sexes" That's the complete opposite about what you are implying I said.

But it is unethical for transgender athletes to go a step beyond that and use your new gender status to compete against females even though you were recently a male.
  • + 3
 @Flowcheckers: luckily rules of sport are not subjective and based on individuals morals which aren't matched by all people. The rules of sport are objective and she's within the rules.

Also you seem to be really pushing the idea that the change of sex is there solely to win at sport and not that she was a mountain bike rider who transitioned for her own personal reasons, not sport related and decided to continue in the sport she loves.

Changing sex to do better in your sport is rather extreme and rather unlikely.
  • + 12
 The other womens reaction spoke volumes when the camera was on the hotseat as did the podium presentation with Tracy who had a brilliant result. Maybe if Siegenthaler was there then some love may have been shown as she seems to think this sort of thing is acceptable. I dont think many others do.
  • + 40
 @ianswilson815: best comment right there. As a female rider, my instinct was to feel utterly disappointed for Marine. She has spent YEARS to get to that level and to miss out on 3rd place because a transgender athlete was approved to race by the UCI and so called science. It does not make it right. I admire Kate in many ways, (she is undeniably a great rider) but personally I do not approve of transgender athletes to compete against biological women in any sport. It simply is not fair. We are not just oestrogen and hormones, we are a bit more complex than that....
  • + 16
 @cbonnet: Great to have a female perspective on this!
  • + 19
 @MonkeyBadgerBoy: You are missing the point, people are challenging the rules because the rules do not consider basic biological differences between males and females. This is not about Weatherly, its about IOC/UCI allowing fully developed males to compete against females (regardless of treatments).

For the very few on here it has nothing to do with morals and by the way you could easily say its immoral for a fully developed male to compete within womens sport (regardless of treatments). Is it truly fair/moral? etc

Caveat, this is nothing personal against any transgender, male, female etc. Really trying to keep it to the facts.
  • + 26
 @enduroNZ: I have read a lot about Kate and appreciate and totally respect what she has gone through. No one is denying that she has worked really hard to get where she is and that she is a great rider. However, do you really believe that the difference between male and female is only based on testosterone levels and hormones?? In many other sport, transgender athletes have simply smashed the female opposition. It is not fair, it is not right. Kate is of female gender, sure, but she is not a biological woman.
  • + 13
 @cbonnet: it’s a bad time to think women in various sports are unable to object due to transphobic accusations and brand suicide on media, some sports have temporarily banned transgender in female competition ignoring IOC guidelines as its for more complex then just a single number.
  • + 5
 @cbonnet:@cbonnet: Marine was only .24 seconds behind even after she had a crash.Thats pretty awesome and she is a fabulous rider who is really showing the promise this season she showed as a junior.I'd love to hear what her and the other racers perspective is because maybe thats all that really matters.They after all are the ones who are at the sharp end of all this.Maybe as we learn more the rules will change but rightly or wrongly we have a set of rules that the UCI has implemented and Kate is able to compete within them.I must admit i was more stoked about how Tracey rode and how Nina is killing it this season and maybe this discussion wouldn't be happening so much if Tahnee and Pompon were fit.I agree though,it is a distraction!!
  • + 15
 @Prof: This is why some sports are starting to kick back at IOC

Controversially, the current guideline states that a male-to-female transgender athlete must show that her testosterone levels have been below 10 nmol/L for at least 12 months prior to her first competition.

That concentration – 10 nmol/L – is around the bottom of the range that clinicians consider normal for adult males, but is more than three times higher than the upper limit of the normal range for adult females – around 3 nmol/L
  • - 2
 @Imabigboy82: I'm not missing the point. The point is the word cheating is wrong.

With regard to transgender athletes competing I pretty much agree that there are huge issues to be discussed as I agree there are poss advantages.

I purely object to the continued use of the word cheating, which as I stated is not the case as within the current rules.

Spouting the word cheating just makes that person look like a bit of a transphobic.

As cheating is a very negative word. About as insulting as it gets in sport.

Currently the rules state she is fine to compete.

Those rules may need reviewing and adjusting at some point if more transgender athletes compete, they may not need changing.
  • + 2
 @MonkeyBadgerBoy: I wasnt referring to the cheating aspect, I was referring to the morality. Hadn't seen the prior comments on cheating as you rightly state its within the rules no matter how immoral they may be.
  • + 4
 Like I said just because I said somthing oc doesn't mean you Need to get all butthurt. But I guess this means I should start racing in the women's category. I'm faster than 98% of women I ride with so it make sense I should race in their category right? @bobochobo:
  • - 2
 @cbonnet: I'd argue that she missed 3rd place or even 2nd more because she fell than because a transgender athlete was racing. I mean it's downhill racing, not enduro (well, enduro is so tight now that you'd lose too). I haven't seen her fall but all year long "going down" pretty much means it's over (wonder if there are statistics about winning or being on the podium after a fall). Vergier experienced it as well this week-end, I think he was on pace for a top 3 position, but he fell and ended up 19th. You may be doing an as perfect as possible run (and it seems like Marine's run was pretty good), if you fall it suddenly is all but perfect. I mean bike is about being on your wheels. And even then, Amaury's little mistake in the first turn probably means it was over right from the start for him.

Also we should just start giving lesser metal medals to other rankings, people would be less arsed about being out of the top 3. Why is it so special to be in the top 3 ? Why does it seem even "better" to be 5th rather than 4th ? There's even 5 steps on the podium in mtb compared to many other sports, but only the first three get a mugshot in front of the sponsor board. Seems to be purely a social (and economical) construct (not that social construct are necessarly bad, but I find this one kinda stupid).
Maybe we could give a carbon fiber medal for 4th, and an aluminium one for 5th. And anyone who qualifies gets a steel is real medal (yes I know riders don't get medals, but you get the idea).

This transgender question is interesting, and though I don't really have an opinion (nature, nurture and everything it encompasses makes my brain melt before I even start thinking, even if I like thinking), it blurs the points of reference, it's suddenly not all B&W anymore, the world is not simple anymore. I find it kinda cool.
  • - 6
flag lognar (Jun 10, 2019 at 5:33) (Below Threshold)
 @Flowcheckers: let me rephrase. Are you saying that you think the kate got a sex change is to gain competitive advantage? Is that it?
  • + 11
 @lognar: Whether that was her intention is neither here nor there. The fact that there is a competitive advantage should disqualify her.
  • + 4
 @Will-narayan: Constructs built by humans and human nature, its not just a coincidence that we like to compete and win in most things we do. Take a look at socialism and how successful that has been lol.
  • + 4
 Not in anyway but there is a massive advantage @lognar:
  • + 4
 @Flowcheckers: Agreed. Far from role model behavior. Still waiting to see if a factory team is interested enough in WC podium results to take on the controversy.
  • - 19
flag cuban-b (Jun 10, 2019 at 7:10) (Below Threshold)
 @freeridejerk888: The insecurity of you guys potentially losing to a woman is so palpable. That’s where all this defensiveness and anger are coming from. It’s so obvious lol lol
  • + 10
 @cuban-b: Possibly the dumbest thing you've said yet. And you've said some seriously dumb shit.
  • - 12
flag cuban-b (Jun 10, 2019 at 7:13) (Below Threshold)
 @chriskneeland: prove me wrong, and I might respect u Smile
  • + 8
 @cuban-b: I don't care if you respect me, you're an idiot.
  • - 14
flag cuban-b (Jun 10, 2019 at 7:27) (Below Threshold)
 @chriskneeland: so defensive!
  • + 6
 @enduroFactory: Come on IOC! When can we start celebrating women for being women? No testosterone supplementation required..
  • - 3
 @cuban-b: Just pointing out another fact you have a hard time accepting Wink
  • - 6
flag cuban-b (Jun 10, 2019 at 7:45) (Below Threshold)
 @chriskneeland: And you still want us believe that you guys are arguing for fairness for women? Sounds pretty idiotic to me Smile Smile Smile
  • - 5
flag dughead123 (Jun 10, 2019 at 7:46) (Below Threshold)
 are we sure all these cranks aren't actually Jordan Peterson?
  • + 10
 @cuban-b: Your argument is that true fairness would be to eliminate women's sports entirely having everyone compete against everyone regardless of gender, assigned or transitioned to. And as men, we're only arguing against transgender athletes competing in the women's category to preserve that category only to protect ourselves from inevitably being beaten by women.

That's what your brain came up with?
  • - 3
 @PNdubRider: I have no doubt she has a real desire to be a female and I'm supportive of her ability to change.

The trend raises some interesting questions. What if so many people had this strong desire to change sexes 100 years ago, before the scientific ability to do it existed?

What is the cause of so many people being born with apparently the wrong sexual identity? Is it nature or nurture? In other words is it possibly an environmental or genetic defect in genes or is it due to social issues that they are influenced by while they are developing?

If this trend towards gender shifting keeps happening at an increasing rate what will the world be like in 40 years?

Will the resources be there to keep up with the demand? Is there enough estrogen in the world to satisfy the demand of future gender shifters? Could we get to the point where demand is so high there are wars over estrogen?

How many other important issues in the world will be ignored because of the controversial attention this issue gets? Will famine, poverty, and environmental collapse be pushed aside while we focus on gender controversies?
  • + 6
 @Flowcheckers: Interesting questions:

I've been reading/hearing about how pervasive endocrine disruptors are in our environment now (fabric softeners, sunscreen, etc.), testosterone blockers (sunscreen again), as well as many other nuro-toxins (fossil fuel burning vehicles, industrial waste, vaccines, fluoride being added indiscriminately to our water supply) that it's not surprising how bad things are getting. Add to that academia and a medical community that goes along with the idea that just because someone "feels" like they are of the opposite sex means they are/can be. It's outrageous. The person should be receiving counseling to learn to deal with their feelings not being told to schedule a surgery and go on meds. In the US now, the medical/mental health community by law must provide "affirmative care", meaning they must go along with and support the persons feelings/desire to change sexes. Besides being outrageous at face value, the statistics aren't good for the mental and physical health outcomes for these people that chose to change sexes.

I never wanted to be of the opposite sex, but I did want to be like Hans Rey, Jeff Lenosvsky and Michael Jordon. Despite a lot of bike riding and basketball playing I was not anything like them and I had to accept that. There are somethings you can change and others you must learn to accept and live with. I don't believe your sex is something you can simply change. If we, as a society, are to the point that we simply accept that we can change sexes and speaking out against this makes you some sort of hateful phobe then I don't know what's going to happen, but it's not going to be good.
  • + 10
 @Flowcheckers: "Could we get to the point where demand is so high there are wars over estrogen?"

I bet this will be the next plot line for the new Mad Max sequel. Charlize Theron, aka Furiosa, driving a tanker truck full of estrogen across the desert being chased by a tyrannical despot. Don't forget the guy with the flame thrower guitar.

But seriously, thanks for starting my Monday morning off with such a good laugh. Rolling on the floor over here.
  • + 6
 @adrock-whistler: is really was an amazing post, in full. Genuinely staggering in its ignorance. I particularly enjoyed the last question about whether climate change would be ignored because of too much focus on "gender controversies". Just incredible.
  • + 0
 @dughead123: Perhaps I've been watching too many crazy sci fi movies lately, was just sort of thinking out loud. Yeah, we won't have the option of ignoring climate change. But explosive issues like this are an easy way to get distracted from other important issues.

@westeast: Thanks for clarifying, I figured there might be an environmental link. What an exciting time to be alive.
  • - 3
 @Flowcheckers: so this is an "explosive issue", as opposed to an "important issue"? Do you see the problem with the way you're framing it?
  • + 3
 @dughead123: But you do admit at least that it's an issue. And by 'it' I mean transgender men or women fitting into the arbitrary binary system of competitive sports categories (don't lump me in with these transphobes).

What is your answer to a women who feel it's unfair? I've asked every woman athlete I've come across and not one of them said it should be allowed for a trans woman to compete against naturally born women. Seriously, what do you say to them?

For reference, it has recently become a hot topic in our state:
triblive.com/sports/biological-male-wins-ncaa-womens-track-championship
  • + 8
 @chriskneeland: it's definitely an issue, but nowhere near as much of an issue as the misguided, one-eyed understanding of countless topics by a fatally uninformed population who inadvertently serve the purposes of the dark forces (the "blame everyone but us" mob) who prey on their insecurities and offer empty promises and stone-cold lies to cheat their way to power. Fear of the other is a weapon. Ridiculous hyperbole discredits all arguments. The facts are impossible to nail down here and in the presence of doubt I would have to go against my liberal instincts and say that I do have a bit of a hard time not questioning Kate's involvement. But the rules are the rules and you can't blame her for that. Just because we don't know where on the greyscale this issue lies, doesn't mean it's either black or white. Any super-strong opinion either way is going to be free of any real value. Until we have a way of measuring (or even identifying) every single parameter governing human performance, no one knows anything. I can see how it's tough for those born female to accept. But anyone who thinks Kate has had it easy need to educate themselves.
To the dude who thinks these poor people should just shut the f*ck up and either kill themselves or live a life of mental anguish like in the good old days... well, no words really.
  • + 0
 @BenPea: Kate is a pawn doing her thing, nothing more as many sports are taking time to assess different approach’s how to be correct for transgender sport and fair but for now various sports are arguing what to do behind closed doors and both sides of the debate are getting further separated for a resolution.
  • + 0
 @chriskneeland: no, I don't think it's an issue.
  • - 1
 @enduroFactory: Most of that is just word salad, but let's try the first bit; who is she a pawn for, and how do you know this?
  • + 5
 This just isn't the right place for this discussion. People question the viability of the IOC regulations (or the choice of the UCI to adhere to those rules, if they have the choice) and that may be fine. But such a discussion should be held without any relation to an individual. The rule has been in effect for years and no one over here ever questioned it until Kate started to do well. This very article is clearly about a particular race where Kate got a podium finish so this just isn't the right place to have this discussion.

Regarding Kate then. She loves riding DH and likes to compete. She checked the regulations and did what it took too comply. And I can't give her enough props for being who she wants to be and doing what she can to be able to compete in the UCI WC DH. Heck, I'd almost be kicking her if she didn't grab the opportunity. If she'd give up the dream to be a WC DH racer. She wants to race, she did what it took and now she's racing. She seems happy where she is now. I saw her smiling. I like smiles. I think it is good as it is now.

Again, it seems people have issues with the IOC regulations. Then have that discussion in a place completely unrelated to an individual. But even if that discussion leads up to a change in the regulations, I believe it shouldn't affect the athletes competing right now. The rules have been there for a good while, no one took offense, people built their career around that. You can't destroy their lives now.
  • + 9
 @vinay: i'm just gonna chime in there and say you don't get to use the phrase 'destroy lives' with regards to someone not being able to ride bikes for a living (frankly, a dream job) when other people have their lives actually destroyed on a daily basis.

just my two cents. people get excluded from stuff all the time, its how life works, lets not blow the possibility of someone not being allowed to race in a sport out of proportion.
  • - 7
flag dughead123 (Jun 10, 2019 at 13:11) (Below Threshold)
 @tobiusmaximum: Completely wrong. People aren't excluded from sport based on gender, or any other protected class/characteristic. That's the whole point.
  • + 9
 @dughead123: would you like to put some more words in my mouth? i've noticed your liberal crusade, you've made it quite clear and i've no wish to face off with you. but i never mentioned 'exclusion from sport' or your identity groups.

as for nobody being excluded based on 'gender'. wrong. i can't race in the womens class. neither can loic or greg. thats called exclusion.
  • + 6
 @chriskneeland: You may find this very in depth article in CyclingWeekly interesting. It is an interview with a pioneering Canadian MTB athlete Kristen Worley who transitioned and then competed in the womens category about 15yrs ago. She rightly points out that all of these hormone limits are arbitrary, which is far from the "settled science" argument that most other trans advocates promote, and she cites examples like Caster Semenya, where a women with hyperandrogenism produces T levels higher than many men. The interesting thing is that her solution at the end of the article seems to suggest the elimination of gender based categories altogether, which is not something you see advocated very often. While that makes sense from a "purity of sport" "free market" perspective, I don't really foresee it being acceptable to the general public.
www.cyclingweekly.com/fitness/kristen-worley-canadian-cyclist-fighting-sports-gender-rules-and-supporting-caster-semenya-273796
  • - 4
flag dughead123 (Jun 10, 2019 at 13:22) (Below Threshold)
 @tobiusmaximum: you literally just said it: "lets not blow the possibility of someone not being allowed to race in a sport out of proportion".

As for your second point, again, it's pretty simple stuff, but seeing as you're struggling I'll help you out - you not being allowed to compete in the women's class is not the same as Kate Weatherly not being allowed to. At all.
  • + 3
 @dughead123: i stated that 'people get excluded from stuff' and i thought thats what you were referencing. but lets leave it there shall we. your whole demeanour throughout your comments has been that you know best and everyone else is wrong to think the way they do. Kate Weatherly is not a male, otherwise this whole situation would not be referencing the moniker of 'transgender'. just think on that. i think there are bigger issues in the world than someone being excluded from sport because they aren't applicable to the category. in fact, i know there are. clearly its you that is struggling with the reality that not everyone gets to do whatever they want. enjoy your lefty crusade. you people will eternally play the 'thats not the same' card. except when someone wants to say.. "thats the reason we want the exclusion".

if you feel so righteous to reply.. please explain how its 'pretty simple stuff', given this is probably the longest pinkbike thread ever.
  • + 6
 Basing the criteria on hormones alone is complete nonsense. For all those spouting that the science shows no difference etc, you are therefore saying a transgender man could compete on a level playing field with the men, right? So if Rachel Atherton pumped herself up with testosterone for a year she could challenge in the men's category? Absolutely no chance whatsoever!
  • - 6
flag dughead123 (Jun 10, 2019 at 14:00) (Below Threshold)
 @tobiusmaximum: i mean most of that is just incoherent nonsense. You may as well have thrown a tin of alphabet soup at the wall and taken a picture of it.

Your main point; however, seems to be that because bad stuff happens in the world, we shouldn't get too upset about excluding certain types of people from sporting competition. Which is, of course, utterly absurd.
  • + 2
 @tobiusmaximum: "given this is probably the longest pinkbike thread ever." Not even close. It's not even the longest trans thread, I don't think. See the futility of it all?
  • + 11
 Just checking in to see if anyone did a joke about "Transition bikes" ? Big Grin
  • + 14
 @cbonnet: Exactly. I whole-heartedly agree. I mentioned this in a previous post concerning trans-athletes, but I believe opinions regarding the gender identity or desired sexual orientation of said individuals is completely irrelevant to the logical and statistical implications of trans-athletes in the sport; it's not personal, it's statistical. Again, biological males and females differ drastically in more than just hormones or appearance. Compare the majority of sports and the difference is obvious for the most part, generally speaking; strength, height, mass, skeletal structure, reflexes, endurance, explosive energy, etc. And again, even amongst trans we see an obvious imbalance of athletic prowess on the MtoF over the FtoM athletes. I personally don't know a lick about Kate, I remain completely neutral toward this person because their personhood is not the issue. So why does this issue matter? Well what happens when people like Marine get displaced in rankings by more and more trans athletes (MtoF)? What happens when the top three are the Ex-Men; Ehrin Gwin, Daenarys Hart and Amy Pierron (not seriously, but you get my point)? Whose rankings, records and wallets does this negatively affect? Is this fair for a middle of the road "former male" to take advantage of, purposefully or not (again, regardless of anyone's personal feeling and not even talking about denying anyone the right to live whatever lifestyle they wish). For people who aren't aware there is even a rift between the TERFs (trans exclusionary radical feminists) and certain factions of the trans-community over this very issue of men encroaching on women's territory. While this is mainly over ideological biases, it does relate to sex biology and illustrate this is more than just "cis ignorance". I'll also re-recommend the Boyce of Reason podcast for trans and former-trans discussions.
  • + 7
 I’d say plenty of people took offense but the IOC panders to whoever is the loudest and in this case it seems any voice of dissent is instantly witch hunted and ostracized as a hate mongerer whether they're was any maliciousness in the dissent or not. @vinay:
  • - 7
flag dughead123 (Jun 10, 2019 at 16:27) (Below Threshold)
 @fudgedredd: same, tired old shit that has no basis in reality. What you're describing hasn't happened in over 40 years of trans athletes competing in sport.

Oh and by the way, if you're going to make out you're "neutral", probably best to avoid snide little jokes that completely betray that a couple of sentences later.
  • + 1
 @everyone .....(you could read that as if you heard it said by Gary Oldman's character Stensman, in the movie Leon, and you'd get how I feel about this thread in places) www.youtube.com/watch?v=74BzSTQCl_c

I strongly recommend this as reading to everyone and anyone who wishes to understand and / or reaffirm their opinion about gender identity, biology and sport. It unpacks it really well.

sportsscientists.com/2019/03/on-transgender-athletes-and-performance-advantages/?doing_wp_cron=1560215840.4763050079345703125000

No, the topic is not simple. Yes, it is important and yes, it is far more complex that we may think at first sight.

If your reaction to the debate is that "Yes, it is simple, it's (insert opinion here wither way)", then I really, really, strongly advise you read the article. It will enable you to get a better understanding of what you think. It's a good read.
  • + 7
 @vinay: Yes Kate, who was a mid pack pro regional racer a couple years ago as a male, was smiling as she stood on the podium of a World Cup race.

I doubt Marine was smiling at that moment, wondering how she got beat and left off the podium by somebody who has been a male her entire life until she took some pills and changed his gender status from him to her and beat her.

Also interesting that nobody has ever considered the possibility that a transgender male to female cheater could stop taking the pills and cheat the tests to essentially be a fake male competing against females. You
likely wouldn't be able to tell the difference based upon visible physical differences, and yet they would be at a tremendous advantage without the estrogen supplements.
  • + 3
 @everyone too

This too, I read this morning, and it is an excellent take on the concept of 'fairness'..

sportsscientists.com/2016/05/hyperandrogenism-women-vs-women-vs-men-sport-qa-joanna-harper

I recommend it to those interested.
  • + 0
 Well this is allowed because population control is a thing... At first this sounds wicked but observe the bigger picture.
  • + 2
 @cbonnet: there are differences between all people though that's why the pros are pros and we are not. Should we start having sub categories for smaller or naturally weaker people like you because they have a disadvantage? Of course not. Even if you turned into a woman I'm sure you wouldn't be able to compete at Kate's level.
  • + 5
 @thekaiser: that is misleading. Caster Semenya has XY chromosomes and testes.

There is nothing surprising about a person with testes producing lots of testosterone.
  • + 1
 @BenPea: see the point I was making? Maybe?
  • + 2
 @tobiusmaximum: I do indeed. It's a mad can of worms that there is absolutely no certainty about either way. Nothing simple about it.
  • + 3
 @dughead123: Question: If you had a daughter who had trained her entire life to become the best in her sports category and then have a male (transgender) of similar age having transitioned 1 year prior beat her to top spot how would you feel? Would it be fair in your eyes? If the answer is yes its fair you are completely delusional and are being brain washed. Who are you listening/reading to on this topic?
  • + 7
 @enduroNZ: I am confused about your comment. Firstly, I can't understand why you call me weak as you do not know me. Secondly, your last sentence does not make sense as I am a woman.
This said, I agree with you that Kate is an incredible pro racer but personally I do not think it is ethical for her to race against women. It is only my view and many people would disagree with me, including close friends... I understand that Kate's journey has been extremely difficult and no one can fully appreciate what she is going through. Let's agree to disagree.
  • + 1
 @enduroNZ: Dude,you do realise Cat's a woman,She's an awesome rider She's tough,courageous and inspirational and I'm privileged to have her as a close friend and riding buddy.Did you assume that she was male because most of the commenters on here are.Some of us aren't you know! .I don't agree with her on this one because I believe we don't know enough and actually I am not really sure it helps to have this discussion here because it can be such a toxic place.
  • + 4
 @Imabigboy82: I suspect you’re wasting your time bud, logic and realism aren’t strong points with the fatally deluded. It’s a script, and telling the truth or saying something ‘mean’ doesn’t fit in it.
  • + 2
 @cbonnet: well said
  • + 1
 @dughead123: a pawn is ref to the bigger picture, Kate will race within the rules and by early results will improve. The bigger picture is the end result how transgender is positioned within sport and most likely a separate class, which from early reports is coming but not yet.
  • + 3
 @tobiusmaximum: I do agree there are different levels of "having your life destroyed" but for a top level athlete to be suddenly excluded from competition because of who you are, not of what you do is quite a big deal. Athletes invest a good bit of time and effort to be able to compete at the very top. UCI follows the IOC regulations in this so if a transsexual athlete would be banned from competition, it would be because IOC introduced the ban. Which implies that such an athlete wouldn't just be excluded from cycling competition, but from most top level competition. Throwing away years of hard work. It would be like if there'd be a mechanical engineer who'd not only be fired from his current job, not only be prohibited to do any engineering duties but to just be completely banned from performing any kind of exact science for a living.

Again, the IOC regulations have been in effect for a good couple of years. People know what they need to live up to in order to compete. And athletes know who their competitors can be. If you choose to engage in such a competition, you agree to comply to these regulations and you accept that you will compete with whoever complies to these regulations as well. So sure, ladies who placed lower this race than Kate did may be disappointed. But they (should) realize that they've been beaten by someone who complies to the same regulations they have chosen to accept.

Please mind you that I still haven't discussed whether the IOC regulations are fair or not. First and foremost because I believe it is unacceptable to do this in the context of an individual. Again, this individual loves to race, educated herself on the regulations, found a way to compete and work her ass off to get where she wants to be. Heck, as if racing the (primarily) Europe-based UCI WC isn't hard enough for someone from NZ. I can only applaud this. Now, out of the context of this individual (which is quite hard atm considering this whole article is about a single race). See, apparently this is no easy matter. Which is why UCI followed the IOC regulations. Also to draw one line across different sports. And I dare to believe that those in charge of these regulations at the IOC are better informed than all us PB keyboard warriors combined. I do agree there needs to be transparency on how these regulations came together (how it was just limited to testosterone levels and why 10nmol/l max etc). Whichever way it was chosen, it needed to have been done with care because athletes built their careers (and lives) around this. And the same goes if they choose to change these regulations. What new insights led up to this, it can't just be because the PB keyboard warriors are upset! But even if they eventually decide to change these regulations, it takes a massive transition period. Because you can maybe require athletes to do something else in competition or to allow or ban certain pieces of equipment (typically a two year transition, like we've seen with the lift on the ban of dissimilar front-rear wheelsizes). But to ban people based on who they are, I'd say it would take a transition period as long as a career length. So this individual is competing now and complies to rules that have been in effect for over a decade. So there is no point moaning now because they can't turn things back anytime soon.
  • + 3
 @vinay 'People that know what they need to live up to'

Yes women need to realize that should a transgender woman enter their category (having 20+ years of male development) that they should just give up, chances of winning are slim at best. Why is that? Because its likely physically impossible for them to compete. The truth is in the male / female timings listed on this topic....
  • + 5
 @Imabigboy82: Not sure what women you know in your life but are they really passive like that? Not the ones I know and definitely not what I'd expect from the ladies who've chosen to take chances and compete in a dangerous sport like this.

1) They read these regulations and go "Oh gosh, should a transgender woman ever choose to compete I'm out because I won't stand a chance. Let's hope it just doesn't happen. Let's hope hope hope..." (passive approach)
2) They read these regulations and go "Hold on, that doesn't look fair. I don't want that to happen. I'll check with my fellow competitors, do our part of the research and propose a change of regulations before someone ever takes advantage of this opportunity." (proactive approach)
3) They have never read this far into the regulations (way to busy training, riding and just making ends meet) and suddenly they're faced with a well performing transgender athlete. "Oh f*ck. Ah well, that's the way it is then. Should pay better attention next time."
4) Like 3) but "Ah well, I don't care. The ladies I'm trying to beat are faster than her anyway so this is pretty irrelevant to me."

My guess (mind you, guess) is that it is a lot of situation 3) and 4) here. If they (or their team, manager etc.) were actually concerned we'd have seen much more 2) shortly after this regulation came in effect (and well before there was a transsexual woman performing in any national DH competition). I haven't heard of such a case and how that turned out. This situation 1) you suggest sounds baffling. It doesn't quite jive with the cool and confident image surrounding top level DH athletes.
  • + 1
 @vinay: Thanks for the scenarios, I agree this is quite an exception to the norm. Scenario 1/2 seem the most viable to me should Kate start to win races. Whilst its unlikely that this will ever happen (she was 4 seconds off) if it happens I dont think the girls will stay quiet tbh. In a way this would be the best way to bring this all to a conclusion. We need to stop pandering to feelings, look at the scientific facts, not opinions, right or left. Just focus.
  • - 6
flag dughead123 (Jun 11, 2019 at 7:24) (Below Threshold)
 @Imabigboy82: yes it's definitely me who's brain washed. Just for reference, where can I find the conclusive evidence that you're basing your arguments on?
  • - 6
flag dughead123 (Jun 11, 2019 at 7:46) (Below Threshold)
 @tobiusmaximum: haha, amazing. Definitely another candidate for the Dunning-Kruger award here.
  • - 6
flag dughead123 (Jun 11, 2019 at 7:51) (Below Threshold)
 @Imabigboy82: which scientific facts are you looking at?
  • - 5
flag dughead123 (Jun 11, 2019 at 7:52) (Below Threshold)
 @Imabigboy82: " The truth is in the male / female timings listed on this topic....". Where, exactly?
  • - 3
 @enduroFactory: yes, I know what a pawn is in this context (although I'm not sure you do). But never mind. Where are these reports that say a separate class for transgender athletes is coming?
  • - 3
 so much "science" in this thread

www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKKa_OlSXgQ
  • + 3
 @vinay: “...this whole article is about a single race.”

Yes. This article is about a single race. However, this comment section discussion is not just about a single race. What would be wrong with having a transgender racing category or categories?
  • + 3
 @flunkymonkey: Thank you for the correction/clarification. It was some time ago that I read all of this stuff and and I either didn't see that detail, or it wasn't released at the time. I was thinking that Semenya had Hyperandrogenism due to PCOS or something like that. It does seem pretty clear that there is a wide spectrum of human variation so anyone hoping for "settled science" in this realm is fooling themselves. No matter how sport chooses to handle that situation, is is bound to be contentious.
  • - 3
 @PNdubRider: because there'd only be one person racing in it. F**k me, that's the level of thought you doofuses are putting into this
  • + 3
 @dughead123: Haha you are challenging basic biology mate, its ridiculous. As for the times I refer to the elite men and women's results
  • + 3
 @dughead123: Maybe there are more than one. Maybe more transgender riders would be drawn to racing if transgender categories existed.

I know of only one transgender racer (male to female) in my area and she chooses to continue to race in the men’s category and does quite well.
  • - 2
 @Imabigboy82: "basic biology". Right, so you're admitting you're completely ignorant on this issue. Cheers.

As for your second point. Sorry, that's not an answer. Again, how do the results show that cisgender female athletes "should just give up, chances of winning are slim at best", specifically?
  • - 2
 @PNdubRider: right, so your argument is based on supposition, that actually goes against the data (which you touch on in your second point).
  • + 3
 @dughead123: its not a cisgender female athlete, you are confusing biology with identity. Not going to bother debating, wasting my time with a very clear SJW.
  • - 1
 @Imabigboy82: you said cisgender female athletes can't win, with the proof being the results of this race. I'm asking you to explain how, and you can't. The reason for that is because the argument is absurd, and doesn't stand up to the slightest bit of scrutiny.

Throwing around pejorative terms you don't really understand doesn't change that. In fact it kind of makes it worse. It's the intellectual equivalent of soiling yourself in public and then laughing at the people who haven't.
  • + 6
 @dughead123: so by saying there would 'only be one person racing' you have loudly and clearly cited the exact reason why 'we' should not be stirring up this ruckus for such a tiny minority. but you won't get that, because 'protecting minorities' is your bread and butter leverage in what is really a thinly veiled quest for moral (and supposed intellectual) superiority. if i were you i'd stop digging the hole. your constant use of 'absurd' and subsequent name calling has exposed you as the standard childlike liberal that we have all come to know and... stare at in disbelief.
  • - 4
flag dughead123 (Jun 11, 2019 at 10:42) (Below Threshold)
 @tobiusmaximum: That's just word salad. You're not actually making any kind of coherent point there; just regurgitating talking points you don't really understand.

I mean it doesn't even come close to being an actual argument.
  • + 6
 @dughead123: dude, all you seem to say is 'thats just a jumble of words'. i'm actually starting to think you are a special minority that needs protection. if you can't read it, i'll rewrite it. but lets be frank, you're being intentionally obtuse because you're on the back foot and clearly upset about the whole thing. just go out on your bike please.
  • - 4
flag dughead123 (Jun 11, 2019 at 11:04) (Below Threshold)
 @tobiusmaximum: haha! You not being able to substantiate your own arguments is me on the back foot?! Amazing. Even your post here makes no sense. I said your response was nonsense, not that I couldn't read it. Embarrassing.

And the mad thing is you think you're making rational, well informed, and well reasoned points, as if you're some kind of paragon of the dialectic method, rather than just a textbook case of Dunning-Kruger. It's sad, really.
  • + 6
 @dughead123: You do realise you haven't made a single argument to the contrary anywhere in this thread. All you have done is criticize other people's posts and used the term word salad a lot.
  • - 4
flag dughead123 (Jun 11, 2019 at 11:11) (Below Threshold)
 @Davec85: Wrong. Again. Do you people get anything right?
  • + 3
 @dughead123: Is there a difference between sex and gender?
  • + 3
 @dughead123: Not wrong, sorry, you really haven't, go look at your posts. Since you are such an expert, why don't you substantiate your claims that it is fair for a trans women to compete against women?
  • - 4
flag dughead123 (Jun 11, 2019 at 11:23) (Below Threshold)
 @Davec85: I mean you've literally just contradicted yourself RIGHT THERE. First you say I haven't made any arguments, then in YOUR NEXT sentence ask me to substantiate my arguments!

*shakes head*

I give up. You people are helpless. It's genuinely like talking to someone with alzheimer's.
  • - 2
 @chriskneeland: yeah great point, that settles it! Pure ignorance.
  • + 2
 @dughead123: it's actually quite fun to watch someone in the dying throws of desperation. a bit like the melting witch in the wizard of oz.
  • + 5
 @dughead123: I didn't say arguments, I said claims, it's a different thing.
  • - 1
 @Davec85: hahahahaha, oh my god. Really? REALLY?
  • + 4
 @dughead123: I can point you to the Oxford English dictionary for the definition of each if you like? And what's with all the capitalisation, calm yourself down.
  • - 3
 @Davec85: another zinger from one of the intellectual heavyweights of Pinkbike.

*sighs*
  • + 6
 Kate certainly isn't helping herself by saying things like this:

"If everyone’s not happy then maybe everyone’s not doing their best racing and I just want everyone to be having fun and doing their best.”
So, according to Weatherly, if women are concerned about a man who suddenly switches to competing in the women’s division, then the women are actually just upset about their own performance?

That's from this article:
genderidentitywatch.com/2018/02/27/kate-anton-weatherly-new-zealand

From what I've see just from her own interviews and quotes, Kate knows she is cheating and is saying disingenuous things to try to distract from it. In her interview after the race she was emphasizing how hard she had trained, obviously trying to give some type of justification for her instant success other than changing genders, which is the obvious reason for her success.
  • - 5
flag dughead123 (Jun 11, 2019 at 12:13) (Below Threshold)
 @Flowcheckers: "about a man who suddenly switches to competing in the women’s division". That's not what's happening. Once again, complete ignorance of the most basic facts.
  • + 2
 @PNdubRider: Well yeah, that's indeed the issue i have with this. Of course as with any natural conversation the subject can wander a bit, go a bit more general (as what we're having here) or even go off topic (which I don't necessarily say is the case here) and that's all fine. But in this very specific case, I think it is sensitive stuff and I don't think it is fair to discuss the regulations for a whole group of sports if this it is still in the comment section of this particular race hence still related to one individual. Again, as I said several times in this comment section: it is ok to discuss the regulations of the sport. Any regulations. But this just isn't the right place to do so.
  • + 1
 Pinkbikers reaction in one short film

m.youtube.com/watch?v=LTq_D93UyRI
  • + 1
 @Ryanfitz81: haha, that's literally what's happening, with this tagged on the end

www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKKa_OlSXgQ

mental
  • + 0
 @Flowcheckers: quite enjoyed how that article clearly says 'he stated'. lol
  • - 5
flag dughead123 (Jun 11, 2019 at 13:11) (Below Threshold)
 so dumb
  • + 6
 @dughead123: If you can't, at least, acknowledge the difference between sex and gender, THAT is pure ignorance. You're assuming that divisions in sports are based on gender, but they're not. They're based on biological sex. Therefor no biologically born male should be able to compete against women. You're acting like it's just participation. it's not. Sport is a physical competition! There's a difference.
  • + 1
 @chriskneeland: " Therefor no biologically born male should be able to compete against women." Other people, qualified people (such as scientists - a vocation you all seem to put a lot of stock in), have conducted research over a number of years and come to a different conclusion. I'm gonna defer to them.
  • + 3
 @dughead123: Still waiting on you to provide these studies.
  • + 3
 UCI follows the IOC guidelines. For this discussion, I just looked those up:

www.olympic.org/news/ioc-approves-consensus-with-regard-to-athletes-who-have-changed-sex-1

Obviously, many of the concerns brought forward in this discussion here have also been debated by their panel of experts. Notably:
"
(A) For how long will the hormonal influence of the earlier puberty be of importance?
(B) Will the testosterone influence on the muscular strength during male puberty ever disappear?
(C) For how long should the treatment with female hormones last in order to be considered sufficient?
"
So those guidelines have been set whilst satisfying these concerns as much as possible. Obviously I haven't dug into the underlying studies (seems like a massive job) but the press release I linked to does give me the impression that the IOC has actually put in the required thought into these regulations. The press release itself isn't lengthy and I think it is a prerequisite for whoever takes part in this discussion. It are these regulations you're questioning, after all.
  • - 2
 @chriskneeland: haha, I'm sure you are. Did you consider checking for yourself? You know, so you'd actually be informed...

If you want to carry on thinking that the guidelines have been formed based on absolutely no research or analysis at all, you can. You'd be completely wrong, but OK.
  • + 4
 @vinay: And to those of us debating the same concerns, @dughead123 says we're ignorant. Interesting.
  • + 1
 @chriskneeland: At some point, gender might become sex, let's not rule out the sci-fi option. Will we make it through the next 100 years that would be required for our tech to get there?
@vinay: Are hormones the only factors that need to be considered? Is their influence on the entire body and its functions that far reaching? Including psychology? What about psychological history? The imprint and the possibly permanent artefacts of former aggression levels. Muscle's functional memory? Am I tits deep in rabbit hole or is this stuff taken into account? Can it be?
Some of these are rhetorical questions.
  • - 3
 @chriskneeland: i'm saying you're ignorant of the history of trans people in sports, yes, as well as some of the most rudimentary facts about Kate Weatherly competing in DH, as highlighted when you said this: "about a man who suddenly switches to competing in the women’s division".

It's just straight up ignorance. If you're upset about having that pointed out to you, well, the solution's pretty simple.
  • + 2
 @Will-narayan: thank f*ck someone brings a bit of levity to this. :-)
  • + 4
 @dughead123: Well I'm not ignorant of trans people competing in sports. Since I've heard of Kate Weatherly's situation months ago I've been doing quite a bit of research.

I never said "about a man who suddenly switches to competing in the women's division". You might want to double check who you're quoting.

And again, no amount of hormone suppression negates the competitive advantage that a trans women gains while going through puberty as a male. Still waiting for your studies that prove otherwise.

All you do is call people who disagree with you ignorant without actually making a point.
  • + 1
 www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkONHNXGfaM

a short microcosm of what happens when "feelings" meet a gang of facts.
  • - 5
flag dughead123 (Jun 11, 2019 at 14:45) (Below Threshold)
 @chriskneeland: "I never said "about a man who suddenly switches to competing in the women's division". You might want to double check who you're quoting."

Apologies, that wasn't you. Easy to get you people mixed up.


"And again, no amount of hormone suppression negates the competitive advantage that a trans women gains while going through puberty as a male. Still waiting for your studies that prove otherwise."

That's your opinion, but again, qualified people who have studied this have come to a different conclusion. I'm deferring to them. That's my point.

And you can keep asking me to do your homework, but honestly, it's pretty pathetic, and is the reason I'm saying you're ignorant. If you really had "done quite a bit of research" you'd be aware of the studies.
  • - 1
 Ben Shapiro? Haha, oh dear. The man who says we don't need to be worried about rising sea levels because people can just sell their house.
  • + 1
 @dughead123: funny how he destroys libs though :-)
  • - 1
 @preach: except he doesn't. He couldn't even destroy the editor of a right wing newspaper.
  • + 2
 @dughead123: :-) again w the “feelings”
  • + 4
 @BenPea: I don't claim to be a bigger expert on the subject than those professors and doctors at IOC who developed and agreed upon those regulations. I also brought this forward because several times in this discussion I've read the claim that some aspects have not been considered in the development of these regulations and that it would all be about the current testosterone level. Whereas the article clearly states that this is not the case. But I also agree that the article (hence the regulations) are about fifteen years old now. There could be new insights by now and maybe it is time for an update. But currently this is what we have and for most arguments I've read here against the participation of male-to-female transsexual athletes, their concerns have already been covered. What you bring forward about psychology doesn't seem to be covered (at least not in the press release mentioned) so that could be an interesting one. Obviously hormones have an influence on psychology. The question now is, do they have a lasting influence even when the raised hormone levels are long gone? Maybe there have been studies on the subject, I don't know. The tricky bit is of course that it goes both ways. Certain situations and mindsets can trigger the development of hormones and having tapped into something once can make it easier to do it again. Just like to develop a confrontation arousal (getting pumped up for a demanding physical performance). As a kid it may happen unintentional. But once you've learned how to use it to your advantage, you can summon it whenever you need it. So yeah, previous experiences sure can trigger hormones and whatever comes from that. And when you place "experiences" at the root of it all, culture, social conditions and opportunities come into play. In more than a few cultures, girls are/have been being held back in their development and may not have developed a mindset that other kids (regardless of sex) have as they got the opportunity to explore and negotiate risks and challenges. So then suddenly it isn't just about the dna that drove the biological development. Culture and upbringing affected it a good bit too. Yes, challenges, limitations, risk and self esteem do influence physical development.

And now indeed, we're mustache deep down in that rabbit hole.
  • + 3
 @vinay: on point
  • + 0
 @preach: er, yeah, ok mate.
  • + 3
 @BenPea: Amen brotha!
  • + 2
 @vinay: this is what seperates the elite athletes, the Messi's, Ronaldo's of the world. Super hero like because they have the right genetics and they were nurtured both physically and mentally from day one.
  • + 1
 @Imabigboy82: Messi had his share of hormone therapy too.
  • + 6
 @BaldBilly: So if Ferguson or Khabib suddenly assume the female gender and dominate the female fight game forever, would that be fair? I think this is really unfair on the female riders tbh. I have no problem at all with anyones life choices or sexuality, but sports is a different story.
  • + 45
 Brosnan's and Bruni's consistency on the biggest stage of all is impossible, except that we're seeing it actually happen. I can't even put in consistent runs on local trails.
  • + 36
 Nina on second place - Incredible!
  • + 32
 This finish jump is scaring me, it's a massive jump already but they're overshooting it to flat and I don't want to see another Remi Thirion situation
  • + 7
 I was expecting to see a bryceland. Some of the riders went super deep.
  • + 8
 Younger Gutierrez sent that thing like he was going for a world record
  • + 26
 On the plus side, I'm pretty sure Red Bull has eliminated any potential for spoilers. There's a warning on all their social stuff beforehand and their videos now just say "Winning Run" with a pic from a different year.

Thanks yall. Well done.
  • + 29
 Yeah, so Troy retains the lead in the overall. So stoked for him!
  • + 4
 Totally!
  • + 27
 Well done Tracey, very deserved win. Anyone pick up that Vali Holl time was 3 seconds quicker than Weatherly. Next few years of women's Dh is going to be really close
  • + 9
 Maybe just like Finn Illes a few years ago, Vali is already comparing her times to the elites and she wants to do well there. It just happens to be that unfortunately some really good elite women racers are out with injury at the moment. Obviously it is not to be expected that they'll be away for long. The trend is that we're seeing more and more great female racers up there which can only be a good thing.
  • + 28
 ZABJEK 10th, YES MAN!
  • + 21
 Go Tracey! Another great result for Nina!! Gutted for Rach, tough conditions on track.
  • + 20
 Someone please put a camera in that zone everyone is falling/loosing 4sec...
  • + 20
 The Denim Destroyer has been unmasked! (Pantsed?)
  • + 19
 Holli could have had a nap in one of the tunnels and still come down first!
  • - 61
flag GruntaNZ (Jun 9, 2019 at 3:17) (Below Threshold)
 Possible, but dick comments like this destroy the sport. You may as well say "why have a junior women division"? Same as junior males right? Pretty one sided? Hey, why even compete if ya ain't winning right?
  • + 15
 @GruntaNZ: It is a real shame. I remember the good old days when all of racing didn't have to collapse because Kovaric won by 14 seconds at Fort Bill.
  • + 12
 @GruntaNZ: good job its winter in New Zealand this snow flake might melt!!
  • + 1
 @GruntaNZ: Martin Maes could have a nap and still win an EWS...
  • - 32
flag GruntaNZ (Jun 9, 2019 at 4:24) (Below Threshold)
 Maybe I'm just the odd one out that just enjoys watching sport... Bring on the down votes for my previous comments, I'm still waking up and going to work tomorrow. It just seems a common theme here sometimes.... Why arn't their more women racers on Dh teams.... Ahhh but the gap between 1st and 2nd is huge so why bother... Like I say, I'm still going to work tomorrow.
  • - 23
flag GruntaNZ (Jun 9, 2019 at 4:28) (Below Threshold)
 @HardtailZero: I guess it could be winter all year round right?........
  • + 18
 Such a bummer for Marine Cabirou, she was so close to a solid podium.
  • + 16
 Gwin’s bike looks painfully huge on him. Bruni and Hart’s bikes fit like a glove. He’s not a big guy - a 29er that large is just WAY too big.
  • + 10
 Ahahahahah... a random jack second guessing gwin bike set up. Priceless.
  • + 16
 Connor Fearon 8th with flat pedals on the Jonathan, good one
  • + 11
 Its cool seeing Gwin and minnaar creeping up again. After they had their epic battle in 2017 that culminated at MSA, it was deflating last year when they both got hurt because, given their ages, coming back the same as before isn't guaranteed. Could the old men be back soon to fighting for 1 and 2 again?? Maybe..
  • + 14
 What is up with that Jingle Bells theme song at the jump spot!?
  • + 36
 I think Petey is selling Ice creams
  • + 8
 IMO the issue here is that although UCI keen to be PC and non-discriminatory (very laudable) but the fact remains that whilst testosterone levels may well be within the boundaries set by the UCI, the advantages a male rider has over a female rider are largely due to physiological differences....regardless of testosterone levels and that cannot be changed any surgery changing a male body to that of a female. This is not an issue of discrimination, just physiological facts! Athletics do not allow guys with spring legs to compete against ablebodied athletes...because they have an advantage! Trans people should of course be allowed to race...but shouldn't there be a separate category? Needing at least 10 riders to qualify as a 'category' ?
  • - 6
flag Aptlynamed (Jun 9, 2019 at 14:19) (Below Threshold)
 Winning in sports is in large part about genetics so not fair in that sense anyway. Should there be a different category for riders with a genetic advantage for exceptional muscle strength, fitness or fast reflexes as well?
  • - 9
flag dughead123 (Jun 9, 2019 at 14:36) (Below Threshold)
 in which case, she'd never be allowed to race. Think about what you're saying.
  • + 1
 I mean, apart from that one small detail, it's a great plan.
  • + 10
 85 points in it between the top four men. Anything can happen! I thought Minnaar was going to do it today though. It was a nail biter!
  • + 12
 WOW! So close between Bruni and Minnaar!
  • + 10
 Such a fun race to watch, so close!! Congrats to Bruni and Minaar for those pinned runs. Gutted for Vergier, sick run as well
  • + 10
 I'd like to know what the 2 Swiss women were saying that Claudio refrained from translating ????
  • + 7
 Love to see GM still on the point end, people who keep their careers at a high level in sport into their 40s are always motivating. Also love seeing Hart’s consistency recently, he gets slightly written off (haven’t seen him as top 3 in almost any prediction) but with the 2nd in Mairibor and strong results since I wouldn’t be shocked to see him win. Quinn seems ever so slightly out of touch after all the bad luck, hoping to see him in the top 3 again.
  • + 7
 Actually Minaar is 37, but this doesn't change the fact that he's totally awesome.
  • + 1
 @Slabrung: Technically speaking I think his UCI 'racing age' is 38. so getting there!
  • + 3
 @ukr77: yeah, my racing age is seven, hence the chronic pain.
  • + 8
 29ers are finally dialed in, mullet bikes can be good as well, but 27.5 increases it's lead with brosnan in 1st. The industry is terrified people might realize to just ride what's comfortable.
  • + 7
 The “industry” has no reason to be terrified. They would need 5 or more 26ers in top 10 to even start paying attention. The marketing machine just works.
  • + 3
 After Troy cements his 1st place standing this season he should go win a WC on 26".
  • + 12
 Nina kiiiillling it!
  • + 9
 15 women racing, 9+ seconds between 1st and 3rd. Not sure if this is exactly exciting racing on the womens side.
  • + 7
 Fair enough but it would be if Tahnee and Myriam wern't out with injuries. Once they are healed up next year and Valli moves up to elites the womens races with be more interesting than the mens!
  • + 5
 @millsr4: there is 9sec in the top 60 of men, so maybe not..
  • + 11
 Claudio Heisenberg
  • + 2
 Actually not a bad look for him. Did a good job commentating today, I thought.
  • + 5
 @fjm35: oh yeah as always!! Rob and Claudio are making races even more exciting to watch
  • + 3
 Camille Balanche expressively talking in the finish.
Rob: "Perhaps you should translate that, Claudio?"
Claudio: "Perhaps I shouldn't..."
Classic.
  • + 9
 So crazy, this Minnaar kid was winning when I was just a little kid, and he's still right there with the very best :O
  • + 7
 Nice ruin, Loic!

Does Bruni push less hard in qualifying than other riders? That's two weeks in a row where he wasn't at the very top of qualifying then put down a scorching race run.
  • - 1
 *run
  • + 2
 I wonder about this myself. I wonder what the mental strategies are to qualifying as fast as possible then knowing you need to improve on that by 3-4 seconds during your race run. Some riders must hold back during quals, and others...?

Great to see Minnaar come so close, bummed for Vergier though.
  • + 1
 Gwin does this a lot. Its kinda evident in his training runs. He’ll pull really fast splits in more difficult sections of track, then more or less coast threw easy stuff. Then he’ll back off in qualifying, partially I think as a way of seeing where people are improving on his splits, but also as a motivating factor.
  • + 1
 Qualifying lower is a little better because the track is less blown out at race time. It would be a risky strategy for a non-protected rider though, for example Greg minnaar. Still, the incentive to give it your all is 50 championship points. So I guess what I'm saying is different strategies for different riders.
  • + 8
 Vali Höll taking the win with a 18 seconds gap to the 2nd fastest rider. That's twice the gap between the 1st and 60th riders in elite men qualis.
  • + 6
 Yea shes on another level. Will be interesting when she moves up to Elite
  • + 5
 @Richt2000: 4 seconds behind Hannah's winning qualy time. She prob wont be up there with the top three just yet but she'll be a regularly on the podium.
  • + 2
 @Richt2000: would have been 3rd in elites. she's gonna be a force if she keeps it up
  • + 4
 After reading an interview that Kate had this section is quite interesting...

She told her critics how lower testosterone causes muscular atrophy, bone density and muscle fibre changes, "which shift the athlete's physical abilities from that of a man to that of a woman".

She hadn’t had the advantage of developing as a male because she took hormone blockers when puberty hit, she pointed out.

The full interview is here, well worth reading before making assumptions..

interactives.stuff.co.nz/2018/03/a-level-playing-field
  • - 3
 Never has there been so much interest in women's DH. Well done, Kate. You've taken the sport to the next level.
  • + 9
 @BenPea: ugh. Its opposite for me. I've always been equally as interested in womens DH as mens and now I feel like not tuning in anymore if there is a cheater being allowed to race (keep in mind I use the term "cheater" to describe the situation due to the bunk rules. In no way do I consider Kate a cheater. She wouldn't be allowed to do what she's doing if proper rules were in place)
  • + 12
 Honestly seeing her defend her actions by claiming she's defied biology is a big negative. I wish i hadn't seen that.
  • + 5
 @thesharkman: tongue's in the ol' cheek there. I'm not fussed. I'll defend gender equality to he hilt, but the spectacle just isn't quite as intense for me and, given limited time to watch, the choice is easy. I can see every side of the Kate argument, apart from the really crass stuff. I can't form a strong view as I don't have an answer, much like the rest of you. As soon as you make artificial alterations to the human body, all bets are off in terms of measurability of any advantage. f*ck knows where she'd be if she'd been born in the right body. It's wall-to-wall opinion and nothing else.
  • + 1
 Taking estrogen actually preserves bone density. #science
  • + 3
 9 year old boys beat 9 year old girls.

before puberty.

go check the age records. boys win. in boy/girl twins the boys are taller and stronger before puberty.

Weatherly is around 1.8m, much taller than the average female. Oestrogen acts as a height reduction. Weatherly's body did not produce oestrogen.

It is an obvious lie to claim that someone with male lungs, skeleton, etc., will reduce their athletic prowess to that of a woman by reducing testosterone.

men cannot become women, and in a sporting context it makes no sense to try.

also, Weatherly is the size of a male athlete. Not a female one. image.redbull.com/rbcom/052/2019-03-25/9cf28c8b-02be-42f5-a48d-d5a9195d7212/0012/0/0/0/2133/3200/1050/1/dh-podiums-crankworx-rotorua-2019.jpg
  • + 8
 5:58 am 3 of my picks already crashed ????
  • + 7
 Fuck yea Gwin! Good to see you back ripping
  • + 8
 SuperBruni !
  • + 2
 My mate sent me this
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/culturallyboundgender.wordpress.com/2014/06/19/all-the-things-you-cant-deny-title-ix-trans-women-and-the-reality-of-neutrality/amp
Not sure how I would feel if my daughter has to compete against her ?
Not sure how I feel about all this in general?
My kids competing against any sex ? Mmh ... challenging?!?!
  • + 4
 Why did Kerr stop racing at the top after his crash?? Went fastest after that in the root section. Could have salvaged his run maybe? Strange
  • + 10
 You could hear him saying that he had dirt in his eye in the beginning.
  • + 1
 @asdfgh1234843: ahh okay makes sense!
  • + 1
 @asdfgh1234843: i get dirt in my eye just driving to the trails!
  • + 5
 @lognar: You aren't riding WC tracks
  • + 5
 Congratulations Tracy! However why did we miss Rachels crash!!
  • + 2
 No cameras up there.
  • + 2
 Nina´s ride was really incredible to watch, such a speed and style and hell yeah that final jump, sent to the moon
  • + 2
 Apparently those assegia tires are working for Greg. Stoked to see him smashing it. Looking fwd to trying them out
  • + 2
 Washing out is exactly why i don't like the assegai is loose and dusty conditions and that's what happened to Vergier. I'm just not sold on the design. It does seem like a great rear tire, though.
  • + 1
 Lots of riders on them I noticed, maybe a quarter of the Maxxis users?
  • + 3
 WOW What a race! So Awesome the UCI let Ronnie Mac Race!!
  • + 1
 Is anyone else watching on laptop through TV? Everyone sounds like theyt have been on the helium!!
  • + 1
 Luca Shaw 9th....damn impressive top ten spot first race back from injury....
  • + 1
 The curse of my Fantasy team is real for the Elite Women. So far it's taken out Tahnee and Rachel!
  • + 1
 Today was fun to watch. First nail biter in quite a while. Tracee winning & Minnaar back in form was great!
  • + 2
 Redbull tv working for you?
  • + 4
 app on samsung tv does not work, website works fine
  • + 1
 Works very well on my laptop.
  • + 1
 redbull app iOS works without any issues
  • + 1
 What was that about the gap narrowing in jr womens?
  • - 3
 It's a shame those of you here to defend the integrity of women's downhill haven't made as much noise about the other obstacles facing female racers. There is hardly any sponsorship for women racers, and far fewer promotional opportunities than their male counterparts, to the extent that there are probably only 2 or 3 real professionals in the field. Yet somehow a single transgender athlete getting a couple of decent results is the end of the world
  • + 2
 amazing race
  • + 1
 Why doesn't the Junior Women top five in the article match that on Scribd?
  • + 1
 Yeah whys Cassie Vosey not there?
  • + 1
 Well that was fixed quickly! Was worried for a moment.
  • + 1
 Sorry Loris, it was Loïc 's turn !
  • + 1
 Wow, everyone figured out how to work Scribd today.
  • + 2
 Link to live timing?
  • + 1
 @edspratt: no live timing there. It goes to the season calendar page
  • + 3
 @sambobcat: If you scroll down the page there should a live timing section. It can sometimes take a while to load.
  • + 1
 @edspratt: got it. Thank you!
  • + 1
 @edspratt: C/Gravina 10 Corralejo 35660
  • + 1
 What bike is Widman on?
  • + 2
 Looked like a Tues to me
  • + 1
 [edited]
  • + 0
 YT
  • + 0
 YT
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