Industry Digest: Patent Infringements, More Peloton Layoffs & More

Oct 28, 2022 at 9:28
by Ed Spratt  
What's going on in the cycling industry this month? Industry Digest is a peek behind the curtain and showcases articles from our sister site, Bicycle Retailer and Industry News. In each installment, you might find patents, mergers, financial reports and industry gossip.



In latest round of layoffs, Peloton lets go another 500 global employees
By: Bicycle Retailer and Industry News

Peloton has eliminated another 500 employees globally, in what the company's CEO termed "the final phase of the company's transformation journey."

CEO and President Barry McCarthy said he misspoke in a Wall Street Journal article that suggested he planned to sell the company if it did not turn around in the next 6 months.

McCarthy said, "I joined Peloton for the comeback story, not to sell the business. And today the business is fundamentally more sound than ever and on the right path, so to be clear, there is no time clock nipping at our heels. If my comments to the WSJ suggested otherwise, then I misspoke, as that is simply not true.

(Read more.)




Wahoo sues Zwift and JetBlack on patent infringement claims
By: Steve Frothingham // Bicycle Retailer and Industry News

Wahoo Fitness is suing Zwift and JetBlack for allegedly infringing on three Wahoo patents related to its stationary trainers.

JetBlack Cycling Pty Ltd, based in Australia, manufactures the Hub trainer that Zwift recently introduced. JetBlack also markets a nearly identical model, the Volt, under its own name for the same price. The Volt has been available for several years.

In separate complaints filed on Oct. 3 against each company in the U.S District Court in Delaware, Wahoo charges that the JetBlack Volt and Zwift Hub are “identical, in all material respects, to the KICKR CORE, one of Wahoo’s innovative bicycle trainers. By copying the KICKR CORE, JetBlack has infringed three of Wahoo’s patents.”

(Read more.)




PeopleForBikes recommends Class 1 e-bikes for mountain bike trails
By: Ray Keener // Bicycle Retailer and Industry News

PeopleForBikes is urging land managers to allow the use of Class 1 e-bikes — but no other e-bikes — on all non-motorized, natural surface trails (including singletrack mountain biking trails) where traditional bicycles are allowed. The recommendation, if adopted by land managers, would ban unclassified e-bikes, higher powered Class 3 and throttle-controlled Class 2 bikes from the trails.

In what was billed as a major policy statement, the organization released the new recommendation at its inaugural eMTB Summit, held Sept. 14-15 at Palisades Tahoe Resort.

While lines are blurring, the speciality retail channel and its suppliers tend to favor Class 1 bikes, while Class 2 and 3 are more prevalent in the consumer-direct channel. Both Class 1 and 2 cut off motor assistance at 20 mph, but Class 2 allows riders to use the motor while coasting.

(Read more.)




Saris Cycling Group acquired by C+A Global at bankruptcy auction
By: Bicycle Retailer and Industry News

C+A Global acquired Saris Cycling Group at a bankruptcy auction and will rename the brand Saris Equipment.

Based in Edison, New Jersey, C+A Global is a worldwide manufacturer and online retailer of consumer products and electronics. Saris is a longtime manufacturer of bike racks, trainers, storage racks and public bike systems and infrastructure.

According to a news release, "by leveraging its impressive manufacturing and sales background, C+A Global plans to breathe new life into the Wisconsin-based brand, starting with updating product lines."

(Read more.)




Thule makes 34 staff cuts in US
By: Steve Frothingham // Bicycle Retailer and Industry News

As Sweden-based Thule Group's executives are warning investors of a sharp decline in sales and earnings due to a softening bike sector, the company's Americas division is making organizational changes that include 34 staff cuts in management, product development, and manufacturing.

Last week the company made a second mid-quarter trading update about its third-quarter financials, which will be announced Oct. 27. Group CEO and president Magnus Welander said sales for the third quarter will be down 25% while operating income will decline about 72%. Welander said the hard times were due to excessive inventory in the bike retail sector that are hampering sales of Thule products into bike shops.

Hilary Hartley, the president of Thule Group's Region America division, said three separate organizational changes led to cutting 34 staff from the 450 employees in the region.

(Read more.)




Led by declining bike helmet demand, MIPS' Q3 net sales down 39%
By: Bicycle Retailer and Industry News

MIPS reported third-quarter net sales decreased 39% year-over-year, citing reduced demand for bike helmets in its Sport category.

Net sales for the quarter were SEK 113 million ($9.9 million), compared with SEK 185 million at the same time last year. MIPS president and CEO Max Strandwitz said he expects this to be a short-term trend but could continue for the rest of the year and into the first part of 2023.

"Bike retailers around the world have generally built up too high inventory levels of bikes and bike accessories and therefore helmet manufacturers pulled the hand brake in terms of helmet manufacturing ahead of next season," Strandwitz said.

(Read more.)




The Pro's Closet cuts workforce 15%, citing 'economic headwinds'
By: Bicycle Retailer and Industry News

The Pro's Closet laid off 15% of its workforce last week, the certified used bike and component retailer confirmed to BRAIN on Monday.

"As reported in mainstream and industry press, the economy and cycling industry have faced macroeconomic headwinds, and as a result, TPC made the difficult decision to rightsize our workforce," said CEO John Levisay in a statement to BRAIN. "We continue to stay optimistic for the future and have seen year-over-year growth. These cuts, while extremely difficult, enable TPC to remain nimble and competitive while building a strong foundation for continued success."

(Read more.)




PeopleForBikes completes sustainable packaging resource
By: Dean Yobbi // Bicycle Retailer and Industry News

PeopleForBikes announced at the SHIFT '22 conference on Tuesday the completion of its first Sustainable Packaging Guidebook that will be available to the industry at the end of the year.

The Sustainability Working Group has been developing the online resource since the beginning of the year, and recent contributions pushed back the release date. An overview and preview will be at PeopleForBikes.org soon.

"It's really going to be awesome and a great resource for the industry," said Ashley Seaward, PeopleForBikes deputy director of state and local policy, in between sustainability workshop sessions on Wednesday. "We received additional contributions of content and additional examples of types of alternatives folks can use for packaging within the guidelines of commonly asked questions from packaging experts who are in this space."

(Read more.)




Industry's e-bike battery recycling program now has nearly 1,500 collection sites
By: Dean Yobbi // Bicycle Retailer and Industry News

The industry's first U.S. e-bike battery recycling program nears a notable milestone seven months after it was established.

The program with nonprofit collection and recycling company Call2Recycle and endorsed by PeopleForBikes now has nearly 1,500 trained collection sites since beginning March 1. From the 1,490 sites, 2,379 individual e-bike batteries — 15,365 pounds — have been collected and recycled as of Wednesday.

Troy Jones, Specialized Bicycles' social and environmental responsibility manager, attended the SHIFT '22 three-day conference here that wrapped up Thursday and noted the program's accomplishments to Wednesday's participants.

(Read more.)




Shimano says bike demand is above pre-pandemic levels
By: Bicycle Retailer and Industry News

Shimano said “strong interest” by consumers in bicycles shows signs of cooling down, but demand is still higher than it was prior to COVID-19.

In its third fiscal quarter financial summary, the component giant said market inventories are low for high-end bikes, although demand for those bikes is high. It said demand for lower priced bikes has cooled, and didn’t remark on inventory levels for those bikes.

Shimano noted that in Europe there are shortages of some high-end bikes and e-bikes, but otherwise inventory levels were approaching appropriate levels.

(Read more.)




David Zimberoff will leave SRAM to work on World Bicycle Relief project
By: Bicycle Retailer and Industry News

Longtime SRAM marketing chief David Zimberoff will soon leave the company to focus on a transportation research project for World Bicycle Relief, a nonprofit launched by SRAM's co-founders in 2005 and supported by the company and others.

Zimberoff, currently SRAM's vice president of marketing, was an industrial designer at a Chicago-based firm where he first met the founders of SRAM in 1993, helping them to design the first ESP rear derailleur. After founding SRAM’s in-house industrial design department in March 1995, he moved to Germany when SRAM acquired Sachs to set up a mirror ID group at SRAM’s Schweinfurt facility.

He returned to the U.S. and took the helm of the marketing department in 1999.

(Read more.)




Garmin Q3 revenue down 4% year-over-year
By: Bicycle Retailer and Industry News

Garmin Ltd. revenue decreased 4% year-over-year, with the Fitness segment experiencing an 18% decline.

Revenue for the quarter ending Sept. 24 was $1.14 billion, compared with $1.19 billion at the same time last year. Fitness revenue — including GPS head units and accessories, power meter pedals, and Tacx stationary trainers — was $280 million, compared with $342 million in the third quarter last year.

Garmin said the Fitness decrease was driven by lower demand for indoor cycling and advanced wellness products.

(Read more.)




Declining bike product demand leads to Thule Q3 net sales decline
By: Bicycle Retailer and Industry News

Thule Group net sales fell 23% year-over-year as global demand for bike products waned because of high inventory levels.

Net sales for the quarter were SEK 2.13 million ($196.3 million), in line with what CEO and President Magnus Welander predicted in his mid-quarter financial statement to investors. At the same time last year, net sales were SEK 2.77 million.

Factoring in currency adjustment, sales declined 29%. Operating profit, which Welander also predicted would drop, fell 71% year-over-year to SEK 193 million.

Thule's Americas division laid off 34 employees from management, product development, and manufacturing earlier this month

(Read more.)






192 Comments

  • 171 3
 Finally a battery recycling program, so i don't have to throw my batteries in the ocean.
  • 129 2
 Living as far from the coast as you do, your carbon footprint would've been huge, surely there's a lake closer to home that would've sufficed?
  • 13 1
 @commental: as a bonus, this will take care of those pesky guys with fishing rods that block the perfect lake view, as all the fish will go belly up. win win.
  • 82 3
 chances are that recycling program sells the batteries to china... so they can dump em in the ocean for you
  • 14 0
 The good news is, after you dump you Li battery in the ocean, it'll generate hydrogen gas that you can capture and use to fuel a moped to ride trails on.
  • 4 3
 Into which Swiss ocean?
  • 3 0
 @commental: no the lakes in Switzerland are full of WWII munitions and everyone knows its dangerous to mix explosives and lithium
  • 2 0
 @commental: that salty ocean water just hits different.
  • 3 1
 @Hamburgi what a quitter. i'll double my quota of throwing batteries in the ocean to cover you.
  • 2 2
 @commental: the Swiss lakes are already full of suspicious crates full of shiny metal. They don’t need any more.
  • 9 0
 But you need to charge the eels...
  • 1 0
 @commental: I just bust them open with a 10lb maul and dump them in the local trout stream, pour my used oil in there as well; out of sight out of mind.
  • 87 0
 Seems to me it would be near impossible to to ban those class 1 e-bikes at this point or at least to enforce it. I for one would not be able to identify some of these recent e-bikes in a clear side view picture, let alone one rolling with a rider on top. All this would lead to is Orange bike riders getting banned from the trails, riding assisted or not.
  • 7 0
 "class 1 citrus only bub" lol
  • 36 5
 It a ridiculous rule that the rest of the world appears to have no problem with.
But surons, throttle & high powered ebikes etc can GTFO.
  • 8 0
 exactly, like who's actally out in the woods checking.................?
  • 27 1
 Just watch how they ride for 5 mins , the balance bike method gives them away
  • 3 0
 What is a Class 1 Ebike, as opposed to Class 2-x? Class 1 is the ones we get reviews from, the 25kmh pedal assist MTBs? And above is 45kmh up to Motorbike disguised as a bike?
  • 86 1
 It's actually very easy to distinguish them, 50% ebikers in my area climb with a seat post in the middle setting, 90% of them are dressed with clothes too warm to climb without a motor. So when you see a guy in wearing a dawn jacket and not being able to straighten his knees you do not actually need do see his bike.
  • 13 0
 @RichieNotRude: good point :'D guy in my local loop riding completely bow legged with his seat post slammed doing 40mph was a dead give away!
  • 12 2
 If you can't ban Class 1, you are a fool to think you could ban the rest.
  • 1 3
 @lkubica: Damn, now they're coming for me. I always have my seatpost slammed, so for climbing too. I do usually wear a sleeveless shirt until freezing point though. So that's a positive for the low saddle, a negative for the clothing, 50% chance I'm getting banned from (unassisted only) trails?
  • 2 0
 @Adamrideshisbike: as far as I’ve seen, there’s zero enforcement on ebike bans, at least in California.
  • 12 15
 "PeopleOnBikes"....so basically a Karen version of the American Motorcycle Association.

Since the motorcycle industry got banned from the forests, they can rebrand themselves as mountain bike advocates and get right back on the woods.

The same woods where they (we...cause I was one of them as a kid) can go right up the gullies and ridges when all these never ending flow trails get boring as FOKK!!!

Only took 30 years for them to get back in the woods. And we though Specialized was sponsoring moto guys for "fitness" reasons.
  • 51 2
 The line was simple at "no motorized vehicles". There's already sites for hacking Class 1 bikes to remove the restrictions, and all technology will be pushed and abused to its limit as motors and batteries get stronger. I can't help but think this is a Pandora's Box we should never have opened, but it's too late now. My local parks don't have the staff to inspect bikes, so machines with throttles are now tearing around the woods. One of the trail systems I ride at has it posted that eBikes are not permitted, but the local shops are renting them and telling customers it's not enforced so go ahead. It's dividing the community and increasing conflict with user groups. What was a fragile balance has been upset and now they're discussing banning all bikes on some of my trails and making others one-way due to complaints about the speed cyclists are going. Hikers don't differentiate between motorized and non-motorized, so all that reaches the state capitol is "mountain bikers ran me off the trail". This sucks.
  • 5 0
 If your argument is that regulation based on separating ebike classes is unenforceable then land managers might opt to just ban all ebikes. You have to be careful with these arguments because they have to convince land managers, and "lol you can't regulate us bro" will quickly get you evicted from the land altogether.
  • 14 0
 I am increasingly seeing eBikes riding with eMoto's, together. Just saw a pack on rented eBikes on NON motorized trails (National Forest, with signs at every trail head) and in that pack of rented eBikes was a Suron. When confronted, he said "It's not a dirt bike".

No pedals, throttle, but still a bicycle.
  • 17 1
 every thing is just as the prophets fortold....................
  • 34 1
 @WaterBear: I would rather see "ban all e-bikes", than "ban all bikes" which is a possible outcome. I have nothing against e-bikes, but losing MTB trail access altogether is far worse than no e-bikes.
  • 3 4
 @Adamrideshisbike: Class 1 is a pedelec; no pedal, no move, Class 2 & 3 have throttles and can 'power-coast' just like a motor bike. So in reality it's easy to spot.
  • 15 1
 @kmo344: Unfortunately, I foresee more straight up bike bans in the future because of all of the people disregarding motorized rules.
  • 10 1
 @CaptainSnappy: Quite honestly, I get pretty peeved when I am hiking my dogs and ebikers rip up a trail they're not allowed on and make zero attempt to yield. It has been happening to me pretty frequently.
  • 2 0
 @CaptainSnappy: Does class 3 have a throttle? I just thought these were considered "speed pedelecs" which do the same as 25km/h pedelecs, just cut off at 45km/h. But you need to pedal (below the cut-off speed) to keep the assistance going.

Either way, regardless all these classes my point was that it is gliding scale and it is getting harder and harder to tell one class from the other (including unassisted bikes). I do however think that a class 2 or 3 e-bike will not look like an unassisted bike (at least in the foreseeable future). So what they could for instance do is to allow those class 1 bikes, but require them to carry a proof (certificate, pass, whatever) that it is indeed a certified class 1 bike. So that if a bike looks particularly bulky (like the first ones did) they can indeed be stopped by a ranger and they can prove that it is indeed a class 1 e-bike. In which case indeed implies that if you bring your class 1 e-bike to the trails, you accept that you may occasionally be stopped by a ranger asking for your certificate. If you want to improve your strava times, just bring an unassisted bike and you can ride on.
  • 15 1
 @pixelguru: Yup pretty much unfolding as I thought it would. Once you obliterate the line of "human powered" there aren't really many enforceable limits. It always surprised me how much the overall cycling community was happy to embrace motors when it seemed so obvious it would drastically change so much of this beautiful sport. Save your arguments fellas, I already know I can't stop it. We have sowed the wind, now it is time to reap the whirlwind
  • 2 0
 @vinay: This is way too much for any underfunded ranger district to handle.
  • 6 4
 One simple solution.. motor = registration plate. maybe licence an MOT (UK yearly safety check for cars an motor bikes). Ride your pedal assist Motor Bike irresponsibility? Loose your licence.
It's a reality that the faster these bikes are becoming the more like actual motor bikes they really are.
And that brings the debate to another point. These able body Ebikers are going to ruin it for the SUPPOSED intended users, disabled an elderly... Remember that marketing bullshit
  • 2 1
 @naptime: It's funny you mention this because in California last year they clarified the DMV rules to specifically address that all eBike classes (1/2/3) are classified as bicycles. Likely because they knew it would be difficult/impossible to enforce.
  • 3 0
 @preston67: this sums it up perfectly. I can't believe more people didn't see it coming. Maybe they just didn't want to see it.
  • 8 5
 @naptime: OK...let's just throw that "disabled and elderly" excuse out the window too.

Forests and trails systems, (unless they are some crappy local city park that's basically 10 acres of crappy ditch no one wanted to sell as "prime real estate" aren't places to strap electric motors on senior citizens or people with the inability to remove themselves from the wilderness without that motor.

If you cannot pedal a 51 tooth rear cog with a 30 tooth front cog on a BICYCLE and maintain an upright position on SINGLETRACK, you should not be on a bicycle. It's a balance toy. Just because something you have physically keeps you from balancing a toy doesn't give you the right to strap on Artificial Intelligence, Tesla batteries, 3 wheeled go-carts or motor actuated pedal carts to get on that singletrack.

You cannot apply Disabilities laws to rugged and/or scenic places.

Disability laws are intended to get people access to things that keep them from dying...food, water, a job or to pay their utilities. Not to scoot me up to the top of a descent in a National Forest on a 3 wheeled go-cart so I can keep rallying with the bros.

Pinkbike ad revenue went through the roof over the guy who left out the part of the story where he rode the rear wheel of a wife of a couple in a local park on a 3 wheeled go-cart two laps, passed them twice aggressively without announcing, introducing or requesting to pass. They leave the loop to get away from him. He winds up behind them on another loop and gets on the wife's butt on a steep, single lane climb and stays right on her, says nothing and when she tells her husband he's there again, they get off to the side and the husband tries to find out what's going on, gets video-ed, the fitness guru and medal winning hand cyclist on a 3 wheel go-cart refuses to have discourse, rips away from them and they get death threats, harrassment and have to change their whole lives.

Not much good coming out of the technology evolution right now with eebs.
  • 8 0
 @kmo344: And there is part of the problem. Many people don't realize (or care) the lengths we've come to get trail access for mountain bikes.
  • 1 0
 @blowmyfuse: People just see whats on a video and make a decision.

To be fair, I have had some bad interactions with three wheeled bikers. One was ripping down a trail and got pissed that I wasn't able to yield on a corner when I was climbing. People with disabilities should be able to access trail systems though... that's where I disagree.
  • 4 1
 @ncrescenti: Nope, they take it for granted since they are new to the sport and haven't put in any effort to develop relationships with land owners or administrative agencies.
  • 8 0
 @pixelguru: Seeing so many surrons out here in SoCal recently. On the one hand it's cool seeing young people out "riding bikes" in nature and having fun, on the other hand they are absolutely destroying the trails. There are multiple videos showing kids on surrons just thrashing jump lines and destroying the jumps. They are always out when it's muddy leaving deep ruts everywhere. I see so many going up hills just rooster tailing the whole way. You're right pandora's box has been opened. Hopefully it doesn't result in MTBs losing access to trails we've had for decades.
  • 4 1
 @OCSunDevil: It will.
  • 10 1
 @blowmyfuse: I'm talking about ebikes not MTB/wheel chairs........
One of the major selling points in the early debates around ebikes an access was just this. The bikes being intended for Elderly an disabled...... Most of us smelled that marketing bullshit a maile away.
  • 2 0
 @HB208: Didn't mean to make it harder for the ranger. They don't have to go after everyone. Just that if they suspect someone to ride the wrong e-bike, they can stop them and check their licence. They won't have to engage in endless discussions and licence tells the story, they don't have to maintain knowledge on all the latest gear and e-bike riders should never moan as by bringing an e-bike to the area they inherently agree to cooperate. If they'll be fined and can leave.

@blowmyfuse : Yes I do largely agree with what you say. The strength to ride a mountainbike isn't just the strength to spin the pedals. It is also to pull it back in check when it skips over a rock or root, to control a skid or when the bike tends to tip over, and when you crash to actually absorb that. All of them get harder when the bike gets heavier and speeds become higher. It is the opposite of what you'd encourage a weak, disabled or older person to try. Yes, people should be able to enjoy the outdoors. But that doesn't imply everyone should be able to enjoy the outdoors at a steady 25km/h and no one will be able to go everywhere. We don't need a service to lift elderly up the Mt Everest because that's the outdoors too. I never helped my kids climb up to the top of the jungle gym. If you can't climb that high, you're definitely not ready to try and climb back down. If you can't climb your bike up the hill unassisted, you're not ready to roll back down safely and properly. Ride some lower trails and the tight corners between the trees will still give you that sense of speed. But you'll come off better when you hit a tree at 20km/h than double that speed.
  • 1 0
 @vinay: I get it, really they would need more resources to do so. I agree it could be done conceptually as Fish and Game officers roll up on people to check licenses.
  • 2 1
 @HB208: Fish & Wildlife is a potential enforcement, not a reality. When you research how many law enforcement staff are on duty or even available at the time of infractions to respond, it's negligible at best.

You'd have better luck stopping a court storming in college basketball with a single Chris Farley look alike in a yellow vest.

Plus, fishermen aren't out fishing with live bait that looks exactly like a dry lure. I can't think of a analogy for hunting unless it were hunting with a silencer in June?

In our area, I've noticed that anywhere a NO E-Bikes sticker is put on a trail sign or intersection, it gets scratched out immediately. One pair of signs even got completely ripped out of the ground within a week of a No Ebikes sticker being put on them.
  • 2 1
 @blowmyfuse: Yeah, because I think in general, hunters and fishermen tend to respect the rules. If the consequence of riding a ebike on a non-motorized trail was a few thousand dollar fine, I'm sure less people would do it (like poaching wildlife).
  • 2 1
 @HB208: Big difference "catching" offenders in waders down a stream bank on foot or in a boat that leaves a wake to follow for the entirety of the lake...and an electric powered motor that leaves no trace, has no audible sound and is invisible from every means of enforcement other than sitting in the parking lot or jumping out in front of and clotheslining them trailside.

Really is an impossible task to hand out fines for e-mopeds. Banning is the only way to ensure any longevity of access to riders on shared trail in the future. And the "it's not a big deal in Europe" argument I NEVER want to hear. I've never looked over the ocean and said I'd like for North America to be more like them in anything other than their access to the Portes du Soleil.
  • 3 2
 Legislative/administrative bans aren't really effective, incredibly expensive to try and enforce, and likely futile. Trail design,however, can pretty much help self select the user group. E-Bikes are HEAVY, working in a portage, or section that requires lifting them, pushing them some distance uphill, or in some other way and that will use an E-Bikes bulk against them wouldn't completely eliminate the problem, but could at least reduce the numbers.
  • 4 1
 @juansolo57: Yep. I've seen walk through fences that are smart like this : www.pinterest.com/pin/564849978246028780

Also seen essentially a set of 3-4 steps built through a fence where you have to walk up the steps on one side of the fence, cross then back down. Almost as if you built the fence down the center of a picnic table.

My personal favorite would be rubber bullets and confiscation of their $10k moped.
  • 2 1
 @juansolo57: Actually...this one would defeat a few eebs, maybe even a few newbs:

www.pinterest.com/pin/56365432828085593
  • 2 1
 @juansolo57: They're not that expensive to enforce. All they need is someone to post up for a few hours on the bottom of popular trail heads each weekend. That would deal with most of the issues.
  • 1 0
 @HB208: hmm like a poice speed trap.. It would be all over social media in 5 mins of the first rider caught an every one warned. There's even a website, maybe even a FB page for UK speed traps!
  • 2 0
 Can tell the difference they will just ban all bikes. Overreaching simple solutions see way to common way to fix things.
  • 3 1
 @mfoga: People would rather spend $8-10K now and get further in the forest illegally than make sure they and their kids will always have a forest to pedal out into.
  • 1 2
 @naptime: Sure, like a speed trap. And doubt most riders out on a trail system are checking their social media anyways.
  • 1 1
 @mfoga: Yup, that's the issue here. If the ebikes become hard to distinguish and there are problems with other trail users, all bikes will just get banned.
  • 2 1
 @HB208: Really? What is the hourly rate of someone authorized to write a ticket, then add administrative cost to enforce and collect the fines..I think you'd find it's NOT inexpensive, and would tend to exacerbate user conflicts.
  • 2 1
 @juansolo57: Probably about $30-40 an hour, but the real purpose is to dissuade people from the behavior in the first place.

How does ticketing people who are poaching trails lead to more user conflicts?
  • 2 1
 @HB208:

"How does ticketing people who are poaching trails lead to more user conflicts?"
Ever notice how hikers or horseback riders have a sense of entitlement/self-righteous indignation on trails they "belong" on and MTBer's "don't"? Same thing.
  • 2 1
 @juansolo57: Bro, if you're on a multi use trail that doesn't allow e bikes on an e bike, you are the definition of entitled. It makes mountain bikers look terrible.

But yeah man, I feel entitled to be able to hike my dogs without e bikers speeding up hills they're not allowed on.
  • 3 2
 @HB208: What ever "hourly rate" you think it will cost for someone to ticket people, I would probably AT LEAST triple it, if not more. It costs roughly double someone's hourly rate to employ that person. On top of that, someone has to be paid to handle on the paperwork associated with the ticket. It is a legal action. Never mind the cost involved if someone tries to dispute it.

How many Park Rangers do you think only want to work a few hours a week just to write those tickets? Probably very few. Though it would cost a lot of money to hire and train those Rangers just to work a few hours. Or we take Rangers away from their other duties, which means something else gets missed. Or, we hire more Rangers to fill the gap, which again will be another full time government employee.

Enforcement is expensive. I am okay with paying for it, but I am not sure how much of a hypocrite it makes me.


@juansolo57: If I am running or riding my horse on a trail that is closed to MTB, I would be pretty upset too.

Plot twist: I take my MTB riding pretty seriously, but I am also an ultra runner and own a horse. If I see a horse on an MTB only trail, I will be pretty pissed. If I see an MTB on a non MTB trail, I will also be pissed.

I don't like eBikes, but I ignore them when they are on eBike legal trails.
  • 1 1
 @JSTootell: Well, good thing this whole conversation has been about e bikers using the on trails they aren't allowed on.
  • 2 1
 @JSTootell: The hard and fast answer is to treat the bikes like they are...motorized. That implies they should impound the vehicle itself upon being caught for an infraction.

But again, that goes back to "Can't catch 'em". They're silent. They've got "Boost" buttons. An enforcement officer in a work truck can't chase them up a honey comb of single track trails or spot them coming out anywhere. They just blend in like some V for Vendetta scene.
  • 1 1
 @blowmyfuse: or just check thier strava.........¿
  • 1 0
 @HB208: As I wrote previously, maybe trail design can reduce user conflicts [due a sense of entitlement amongst other things] by "selecting" th e user group it appeals to.
  • 2 0
 @juansolo57: That's an awesome thought, but doesn't address access on current trail systems. It is unreasonable to think that trail managers can rebuild trail systems to make them less desirable for ebikers.
  • 1 0
 @HB208

Why would it be necessary to rebuild large sections of trail?
  • 1 1
 @juansolo57: Here in Pisgah, all of the trails are being re-built, re-routed or "re-drained" and all for the lowest common denominator, the newbie cyclist.

I actually enjoy really narrow, hiker style technical trail, but everything is being re-shapen to where if you don't even have to get off a bike to climb anything. You can ride anything and everything. As a hiker and biker, it sucks to hike the "trails" now. Most everything is "tracks".
  • 2 0
 @blowmyfuse: Yeah, I hear you. Increasing "access" is a double edge sword.
  • 63 1
 "TPC made the difficult decision to rightsize our workforce," said CEO

*vomit*

The conference room full of online MBA's thought that was really clever.
  • 7 11
flag WaterBear (Nov 1, 2022 at 7:22) (Below Threshold)
 It's business speak for "we can't afford all these employees." Would you rather they say it that way?
  • 17 1
 It would be refreshing to have an exec empathize with the those that have been let go.
  • 18 0
 @WaterBear: Yes. Yes I would.
  • 4 0
 TPC is private equity owned by Ridgeline Ventures out of Colorado, so IRR > all else…
  • 8 0
 @WaterBear: I would be refreshing to hear them tell it like it is rather than to cover dog shit with chocolate frosting
  • 7 0
 Good news Bob, you weren’t laid off, you were right sized. Unfortunately you weren’t the right size.
  • 3 2
 Yeah, I hate generic business speak, too. But sometimes it is factually correct.
What would be the right way to say it? "We laid off people due to a lull in demand for our product." I'm sure that would piss people off, too.
I'm sure companies would prefer not to lay people off, but if the demand isn't there do you run the ship into the ground paying everyone to hang out? Do you offer to cut everyone's salary so that you don't have to lay anyone off? These are not easy decisions.
  • 4 0
 @los36: they could cut C suite salaries and everybody still eats. They might call it "right-paying."

Think they'd go for it?!
  • 3 2
 @DizzyNinja @delta5: what difference does it really make how they put it - nicely or bluntly? The end result is the same and you know what they mean either way.
  • 2 0
 @jdejace: That would be great, but how long would it last? Eventually, the C-suite would leave for greener pastures. Then they'd have to replace them with inferior, cut-rate talent or restore the C-suite salaries to the going rate for good leadership.
I do see the out-sized salaries as a problem, but the fix for that at the corporate level is not easy. A family-run business could do that.
  • 41 0
 As far as I can tell PeopleForBikes is a bike industry lobbying group that pretends to be a bike advocacy organization
  • 4 0
 Aren't they all?
  • 12 0
 @the-one1: yes, but to different degrees. PFB basically does nothing but lobby, the veneer of advocacy is much thinner than some other orgs.
  • 14 0
 Correct. Specifically it is made up of ebike manufactures. Kind of like Shell, Mobil, and Exxon forming and advocacy group and calling it: People for Sustainable Transportation.
  • 4 0
 For better or for worse, lobby groups have an inordinate amount power over politicians to such a degree that voting is almost moot. Pick your leader, but many of the issues have already been decided by those groups with the deepest pockets. SMH.
  • 7 0
 100%

PFB, absorbed BPSA (Bicycle Products Suppliers Association) and all of its functions a few years back. In my mind, the name "People For Bikes" is a bit of a misnomer.
  • 5 0
 Nailed it. They don't even try and hide it. The corporate members page is a who's who of the bike and ebike industry and improved ebike access is one of their selling points. So it's an ebike advocacy group with an incredibly misleading name.
  • 5 0
 Somehow “suits for profit” doesn’t have as nice a ring to it
  • 1 0
 @speed10: Lulz - if the suit fits...
  • 1 0
 @kingtut87: Might as well throw IMBA into the same category as well. 100% industry capture.
  • 37 2
 It's thule an achievement if you make it into this list with two separate entries.
  • 14 1
 well, they would also achieve the most wobbly bike rack award if there was one
  • 3 1
 @vemegen: and no after-sales longer straps for longer bikes, so I have to invest another grand in another one of their racks.. excellent!!
  • 5 1
 “Welander said the hard times were due to excessive inventory in the bike retail sector that are hampering sales of Thule products into bike shops.“

I would’ve thought it was because 1up racks are now back to full inventory.
  • 1 0
 Ya they fired almost their entire product development staff in the US. Don't expect any improvements in their mediocre products anytime soon, if ever
  • 3 0
 @vemegen: Surely, you can't be saris.
  • 2 0
 If Ikea is sweedish for common sense what does Thule mean in sweedish?
  • 29 0
 While I don't own an E-Bike, I like them. But, they're illegal in Pisgah and Dupont yet they see rampant use of e-bikes. If you can't control any ebikes in a trail system how will you control type of ebike?
  • 7 0
 Right? Are they gonna have to show their class 1 driver's license? lol
  • 7 0
 Eventually ban bike access completely, since idiots ruin it for everyone all the time.
  • 27 0
 TPC can suck it. Their used prices are ridiculously high and trade it values ridiculously low.
  • 2 0
 I got two separate Box carbon wheelsets (two F, two R) for $440/pair, new old-stock, and they have worked wonderfully.
  • 6 0
 TPC is private equity owned by Ridgeline Ventures out of Colorado, all about maximizing that IRR…
  • 2 0
 That's how they make money though, it's easy enough to sell your own bike for more but buying from them isn't that bad. They stand behind their product and have a return policy too for 30 days. You have to pay more for that small piece of mind I guess. I've seen some great deals on there and I've seen some shitty deals.
  • 3 0
 like this? 3400 USD for all that paint damage by the headset? www.theproscloset.com/products/2020-trek-supercaliber-m-3.
Back in their early days TPC (when they were by the BusStop) they were awesome. Now they've turned into corporate greed. They have to be sitting on 10-20 million dollars in inventory
  • 1 0
 @privatejoker: Exactly. I recently reached out to them for a quote to buy back a frame I bought from them 4 months ago for either store credit or just cash. A frame that is literally brand new, they offered me back 30% of my original purchase price.....
The email they sent said this:
"This offer we extended is not the actual resale value of your bike. Rather, it is what we are able to offer for it at this time after accounting for shipping, servicing, detailing, listing, storing, and selling your [BIKE/WHEEL]. Our offers are directly correlated to current market conditions, existing inventory volume, and numerous product-specific factors that inherently fluctuate. There’s no specific blueprint to capture the most value for your gear; however, we aim to make the best offer possible within the given parameters at that time."

The "DETAILING" part got me, so many bikes and frames they have up for sale are filthy!
  • 26 0
 If Peloton signed Rob Warner and Missy Giove as instructors I might just get one. Maybe.
  • 7 4
 I would love to see Rob Warner coaching a class. Peloton is way more than spin bike classes too. Its actually an affordable ($12.99/mo) way to get legit workouts at home with or without weights. My wife and I have been using it for a year now and its pretty friggin awesome. I actually stretch now because I just put on a 10 or 20 min stretch video (NOT YOGA) and don't have to think about anything.
  • 3 1
 @preridedump: I'm tempted to cancel netflix and go with this...
  • 1 0
 It would be rad to see missy get into shape…
  • 1 0
 Rob would need a motor on his Peloton
  • 6 2
 @bonkmasterflex: id say its worth it, it makes working out so easy and mindless. There's probably a trial period you can go through and not pay anything.

Whoever down voted me has baby legs and cases every jump.
  • 1 0
 @bonkmasterflex: It's almost cheaper
  • 1 0
 @wobblegoblin: is she out of jail?
  • 1 0
 @cliocatface: she got house arrest and probation, so yeah.
  • 1 0
 How does Peloton have any employees left? How many freaking people did they hire!?
  • 1 0
 Only if Missy is bringing the weed.
  • 19 0
 Saris went bankrupt? I guess they weren't making enough bones.
  • 2 0
 Ironically enough, that is the ONLY Saris product worth buying, the Bones rear rack. I haven't used truck racks in years, but if you absolutely had to have one, that is a good one.
  • 1 0
 @bman33: That and the cycleglide bike storage.
  • 14 0
 I am shocked. Absolutely shocked that the bike industry is slowing down. I really find it hard to believe that the industry did not assume this would happen.
  • 2 0
 Some of them did for sure. But there was also a spate of takeovers by private equity, and mergers bringing in big shot CEO's and boards. Small brands who were smart are probably ok. Ones who sold out or got greedy are going to get killed.
  • 17 2
 Companies: let’s cut people not prices!
  • 9 0
 Peloton layoff news is like reporting on Lululemon layoff's on Pinkbike. I'd argue it has almost no correlation to the industry as the majority of it's customer base are generally non-cyclists (yes of course some are).

Now if Zwift was laying people off, that's related.
  • 1 0
 when you have >2.5M subscribers, even if cyclists are in the 'minority' it could still be >1M peloton users. Heck, if you're a pessimist and say its 500k users, it's still a lot of cyclists.
  • 12 1
 The bike market has for sure fallen over itself a little, high stocks with prices far to high.
  • 11 0
 TPC is laying people off because no one wants to pay an extra 1000 dollars for a used bike they can buy on Pinkbike lol
  • 6 0
 but its certified...
  • 1 0
 Seriously, their prices are awful. I sold an older Nomad to a friend for about $2k less than them, and it was a good but still fair price.
  • 8 2
 Ha. Wahoo salty over being so massively undercut in price.
Had no issues with Jet-black when it was priced similarly but now its much cheaper......
The Zwift hub effectively makes any other wheel off trainer a rip off (aside from for racing in which a slightly more accurate one is needed).
  • 4 5
 Right? About time those bastards get a reality check that a turbo trainer shouldnt ever be $1k+... I hope Zwift wins and then blocks wahoo products lol a true Robin Hood story
  • 6 2
 Well yeah, I'd be pretty pissed if I invested in R&D only to have another company copy the product and undercut the price.
  • 3 3
 @HB208: you're forgetting about the margins they're working/selling on though. By Zwift releasing an identical product for essentially half the cost means that they are still profitable at that price and now "the word is out". Wahoo along with 1 or 2 other brands have had a pretty bogus monopoly on trainers for a while now. $1k+ is a bit of a joke after 10 years of direct drives being available. Good to see someone come in and disrupt the market imo.

I also own a Wahoo trainer. Great product but massively over priced.
  • 4 1
 @scallywagg: Right, and if you want innovation companies need to be able to have higher margins when they spend the money to develop a product.
  • 3 2
 @HB208: Wahoo is tech company that relies on outside investors and equity partners to fuel its innovations. The computers and trainers that they put they're tech into are made in the same factories that any other price point product is made. When you mark a product up 800% its inevitable that someone will eventually call it for what it is and release a carbon copy at its appropriate price. Now is that time for Wahoo lol
  • 5 2
 @scallywagg: Dude the difference in price is $200 between the kickr core and the new zwift trainer. You're acting like its a totally unreasonable markup for a company that actually developed the product.
  • 2 3
 @HB208: $499 vs $899 bud

They've had 5 years to cash in on it. I work in product development and we're stoked if we can get 3 years lol
  • 4 2
 @scallywagg: I got one for $700, just need to wait for sales.

Anyways, that's not how IP law works... which is why Zwift is getting sued.
  • 2 2
 @HB208: Still $499 vs $899 retail

Wahoo could give two sh##s about IP Law hence the non excitant lawsuit against JetBlack who also makes "the same" trainer branded under their name but at the same price as Wahoo. Wahoo is merely butt hurt at the price Zwift if offering the product at. Its not that hard to see through the BS.

As for the lawsuit, I find it hard to believe that Zwift and their legal team didn't do their research prior to releasing the product... In todays world you can slap a lawsuit on someone for looking at you funny so I feel like this accusation from Wahoo may fizzle out once more information surfaces.

All in all can we just be stoked for a cheaper trainer
  • 6 1
 Wtf are all those hyper enthusiastic wooo cmon let’s go wahooo wooo yeah go peloton people going to do now whilst i don’t want to make fun of their plight surely one of them will have got this wooooo
  • 20 17
 Sorry y'all. A MIPS rant. I'm all for the evolution of products to make them better but... All helmets sold are safe. They wouldn't be allowed to be sold otherwise. MIPS takes a safe helmet and makes it incrementally safer... At a premium price. And then we will make the alternatives sound inferior. Helmets without MIPS are still safe and cheaper. Maybe MIPS financial issues are because helmets are ridiculously expensive and people are buying mid-range helmets.
  • 19 6
 Premium price? You can buy MIPS helmets for under $100.

I got hit by a car going effing 50mph and my road biking MIPS helmet saved my life. I'll never ride without it again
  • 13 0
 MIPS helmets cost $30 more than "regular" helmets based on a recent shopping spree.

A regular helmet saved my life when I went down straight to the dome at 30mph. I'll never ride without it again.
  • 5 0
 @sandwich: Mips is also not the only name in the game anymore, bontrager has wavecell, lazer has kineticore, and there are a few other concepts floating out there. and that's just in the bike industry.

I Mips might be declining in proportion to other systems entering the market place
  • 31 0
 @hamncheez: How do you know that you would be dead if you didn't have mips?
  • 6 1
 @laupe: for a difference of less than $70, I think he’s probably okay not taking that chance
  • 9 4
 @laupe: I said the combo of MIPS and a helmet saved my life.

I had (still have a year later) concussion symptoms, and I saw a specialist whos a brain-injury doctor for the NFL. Not only is he a mountain biker himself, hes very bullish on MIPS for cycling. He also happens to think its not useful for football, so hes not just a band-wagoner. Ultimately there are so many variables that its impossible to say for sure, but I'm confident in them. And for only a $30 premium, man, take it from me, your brain health so much more important than we think.
  • 4 3
 I dont remember where I first saw it but read something that basically if you have hair, it is doing the same thing as mips. So if you have a shaved head, maybe mips is doing more for you. I still have one mips helmet but its because i got a screaming deal on it.
  • 12 0
 @Sscottt

All helmets sold meet minimum safety standards. This does not mean that all helmets sold are equally safe.

Virginia Tech does independent helmet testing if you are in interested in looking at the wide distribution of helmets safety ratings.

www.helmet.beam.vt.edu/bicycle-helmet-ratings.html

You may notice that most of the highest ranked helmets have mips. And not having mips often results in lower rankings.

But any helmet is better than none in a crash. Be safe out there.
  • 8 1
 Speaking from personal experience… if somebody close to you suffers from something like dementia, that was exacerbated by a concussion injury, where mips could have helped, even if only a little... You spend as much on helmets as you possibly can. Simple.
  • 2 1
 @TonyFlynn: Yes. I watched my dad die from dementia, 9 years ago yesterday. He had symptoms for years (PSP), and the last 2 years of his life he was nonverbal. It wasn't caused by a concussion, but man concussions can lead to that and its worth every penny to prevent it.
  • 1 0
 it's difficult to buy a good helmet (lightweight full face or half shell) without MIPS these days - the premium is baked in. You have to actively shop for a helmet without it. MIPS helped move the enthusiasts upmarket to the premium product - for better (safer) or worse ($$).
  • 2 0
 Maybe the financial issues of all the above companies sound pretty much the same? Overstock post-pandemic coupled with reduced consumer demand. We don't need to invent reasons when there's a pretty convincing one on the table already.
  • 1 0
 I am not anti MIPS, I am just not sold on hit being an actual improvement. Maybe it is because I have had a helmet that was miserable to wear because of the MIPS, or the additional weight, or because I have a full head of hair that goes nearly to my belt, but I am not sold on it.

But I think all my current MTB helmets have it, and one of my road and maybe my XC helmet? So, hard to escape it now.
  • 3 1
 So you are against making products better and against people charging more for better products. Got it. MIPS is pure genius and I hope the desinger squeezes the market for as much cash as possible before his patents expire.
  • 2 0
 @JSTootell: one thing you may find helpful for your next helmet is a different version of MIPS, for example the Spesh Ambush 2 uses MIPS SL - have a look at the inside of the helmet and you'll see it doesn't have the 'hairnet' that makes original MIPS so uncomfortable for some. See also Integrated or Spherical MIPS (Giro, Bell).
  • 3 0
 Hahahhahah good these are all the companies that needed the good ol' crotch shot Thule, selling racks well over what they costs to produce (there is a difference between profit and robbery)
Pros closet, biggest rip off by far trade in value and no just stuck with all that inventory
  • 4 0
 So….. the world economy has gone to sh*t, people are strapped for cash, and these companies think everyone can just run out and buy a new $10K bike every 2 years?

Riiiiiggghhhhttttt.
  • 4 0
 I'm still not sure how news from "Peloton" keeps qualifying as cycling industry news. Peloton is about cycling about as much as pedal-operated kayaks are.
  • 5 0
 At least pedal operated kayaks go places. I'd say thats closer to cycling news than Peloton
  • 1 0
 @SacAssassin: don't give them any ideas lol
  • 9 4
 money,money,money....in the rich man's world
  • 6 1
 it's* a*
  • 11 0
 @mi-bike: It's a mario*
  • 1 0
 I'm quite surprised about The Pro's Closet layoffs. I would have thought that the market for a more economical way to ride higher-end bikes was about to get bigger, not smaller. They should have doubled-down and expanded into Europe.
  • 56 0
 The problem is they are trying to rip everyone off pretty hard right now, they are basing their pricing off original msrp for 3-4 year old bikes. 2019 megatower c s for $582 less than it was brand new. f*ck them
  • 16 0
 Their pricing has been getting really high. Looking now I see a few they call certified pre opened set at $100 below retail for a new one. They also have started selling new bikes for some reason and new components. Rather than stick to their original business plan it appears they started become a regular online bike and component shop that also happens to have a large used inventory.
  • 18 0
 I'm surprised they've been able to stay afloat as long as they have with their prices and the state of the market. People buy secondhand bikes to get a better deal, NOT to pad a 3rd party's margin. How could you possibly get a good price, when even buying a secondhand bike from someone else directly has gotten much more expensive than it once was? How is there room in there for another business to take a piece and still remain a viable option?

I've looked at the Pro's closet a number of times when I've been in the market and have found no compelling reason to use their services. Not saying they aren't a good company as I don't have any experience with them to say one way or the other, just an observation of economics here.
  • 10 0
 @dsciulli19: I bought my wife a Juliana from them 3 years ago and it was actually a good deal for a top tier build. But now, they are asking insane prices for mid level bikes with damage and no warranty
  • 5 0
 Their pricing model is obscene. During the full on covid times they were listing used bikes in awful condition with crap builds for more money than the same, new, albeit out of stock elsewhere, bike. "That's business!"
Playing a melancholic song on the worlds tiniest violin.
  • 5 0
 I want to add to everyone elses complaint's about TPC to say this:
I bought a like-new evil insurgent LB from them in fall 2019 for $3400. X01 build, Lyrik RC3/monarch RC3, e13 alloy wheels. I think back then retail price was like $5999 or something?
I upgraded last fall and couldn't even sell my bike in real life for $3000 (even with upgrades). I put some shit parts on it and sold it to TPC for $2500. The fact that they think they could sell it at $4249 is ludicrous. And sure enough one year later it is still up there.
www.theproscloset.com/products/evil-insurgent-lb-xl
  • 2 0
 Ya they have a pretty flawed system if you ask me. I guess if you live under a rock and have absolutely no idea how to sell your used bike, it might be a good idea to sell them your bike at 50-60% less than you could sell it on. . . Pinkbike?
  • 5 0
 @ihertzler: I’m honestly surprised they have you that much. I gave them a chance to buy my Druid earlier this year and they offered $1500 less than what I sold it for. And it took me all of a day to sell it on my local Facebook marketplace.
  • 3 0
 People often confuse a good business idea with a soundly operated company
  • 7 1
 TPC can get bent. When it started out the site was a great spot to grab some discounted gear. Now everything on their site is retail price or damn near retail. Whoever took it over missed the point of TPC and turned it into an online retailer with limited selection.
  • 2 0
 To give you another idea about how this company has so drastically changed from their original business plan of selling high quality used bikes, earlier this year I was on the hunt for some eeWings. Yeah I know... but they are f*cking amazing. Anyway, no one had them in 170, not even Cane Creek. For some reason TPC had dozens in stock and it looks like they still do. If it weren't for my deep googling to find a set I would have never thought to look there. Why is a used bike shop carrying super high end brand new cranks?
  • 3 0
 @pisgahgnar: honestly the parts i put on it, and some of the stuff still on it, is pretty beat. I put 4,000 miles on the bike in two years so i was reasonably satisfied with that price. Like i said i couldn't get $3k on PB or FB. So, net, i guess, i paid around $1000 for 2 years and 4,000 miles which doesn't seem too bad.
  • 3 0
 I'm not sure Pro's Closet fall in the "more economical way to ride" market. They're more in the "the let's take advantage of the fact that people can't buy new bikes" market... which is now ending.
  • 2 0
 @ripridesbikes: I recently bought a new Turbo Levo and the shop owner took my wifes Powerfly 9.7 in on trade pending TPC offer. It was a 2020 bike with less than 1000 miles on it. We paid about 6 grand for it originally.

TPC said and I quote "we have too much inventory now but can offer you $2500-$2700 in 3 months or so". I looked at their site and they had a powerfly in stock just like ours and had it listed for over 5 grand.

I understand they need to make money too, but they need to get a reality check with their pricing structure.
  • 1 0
 @pisgahgnar: I had assumed they were buying in liquidation stock rather than direct from manufacturer as part of their reseller model but looking at this thread, maybe they have moved into being a direct from manufacturer/wholesaler parts retailler trying to compete in an established agressive market place.
  • 4 0
 TPC went downhill when a private equity group called Ridgeline Ventures out of Colorado took them over. They are trying to maximize IRR and don’t understand cycling or the true value of what they’re trying to sell. All their other investments are in BFY foods and clothing…they just figured TPC would be a cash cow during the bike boom.
  • 2 0
 Screw saris, they deserved to go under. They should have to repay their fraudulent ppp loan too.
  • 1 0
 It almost like if they'd focused on the end product cost of the consumer they'd be more "don't call it a recession call it a downturn" proof
  • 1 0
 Is it just me, or does that pic of David Zimberoff make him look almost identical to that old guy from that disney movie "Up"????
  • 3 5
 I've been saying it for years.. people stop playing into the marketing bullshit and quit buying stuff already..prices will go down then you can afford things you actually need..that being said we don't need to ride bikes so as this recession gets worse you can blame old fartknocker biden
  • 3 0
 Puckin felaton
  • 1 0
 I like throwing my batteries in the ocean, but only when dolphins are there to catch them





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