Industry Digest: Specialized Closes Machines For Freedom Brand, Falling Sales & More

 If they have the resources, expanding during a downturn is smart. You can get better prices for the buildout and by the time the factory is done, the industry (should) recover.

 the Leeroy Jenkins business model

 *Double post.

 Obviously, the planning, financing and acquisition of land/property for that building was started years ago.

 @HB208: That's how it is in aerospace. For large companies like Boeing, in a recession plane orders would slow and they use that time to upgrade production equipment (which takes a year or three to be made and readied for use). So that when the economy turns around and they get lots of orders they are able to make airframes faster (gives airlines less time to change their mind). I'm not sure mtb parts company is in the same boat tho.

 Yeah overall vibe feels like "big companies consolidate, smaller companies lose money, fail or are bought out by big companies."

Prediction: headset routing will save the bike industry. All you suckers with rational cable routing are riding obsolete bikes! Throw them away and buy new ones! That SRAM factory has a whole floor dedicate to obscure cable routing options. #disruptcablerouting

 @Drew-O: become ungovernable


I tried really hard to work cable and ungovernable into a word, and it made my head hurt so I gave up

 @Drew-O: That's a chaotic evil predition for sure.

 What will they do when China invades Taiwan? The will cease to exist. At least Shimano has some production in other countries.

 @grnmachine02: ungoverncable

 @ak-77: I think I had already had a stroke by this point. Although I'm upset that I didn't make it there.

 @HB208: Plus they'll save plenty by building the new facility out of Lego

 @grnmachine02:
deep state satanic cable

 Sram is late to the ebike game, they need to spend some money to catch up there.

 @ak-77: uncovercables

 Perhaps SRAM can outsource some of its imminent spare capacity to Shimano?

Just a thought.

 I feel like SRAM is misleading us with the 30% larger…we all know it’s actually 30.89% larger

 @ismellfish: just like sx derailleurs

 @shredddr: There's always SRAMbodia

 @abueno: Feels like 29.99% larger should unify their manufacturing processes.

 @smashbeast: they also famously swore off electric shifting in the past, they are not innovators, but certainly good at owning the OEM game

 @Drew-O: sram is going to make axs batteries that fit in the head tube. That way you get the benefits of wireless shifting with the headache of headset routing.

 @grnmachine02:
ungovern-cable

 I see I’m late to the seat at the cable

 PON as well

 @Drew-O: internal cable routing is just a ploy to make you buy axs and after a few headsets there'll be code axs upgrade kit

 Ah yes…. What goes up is a coming down!

 Most everything they have is 50% off on various sites. They royally screwed dealers by updating forks during the pandemic and having containers of old product arrive days after the announcements at retail.

 @usedbikestuff: Yep, talking to my rep about my new bike... wanted to go with the Rockshox options if it was 2023 product (buttercups etc)... no way! The new stuff is stuck behind massive piles of old stuff. Manufacturers have tons of stock followed by orders over a year old still coming in of 2022 models. So I went with the trusty fox kit.

 @Drew-O: unless folks add beaucoup bucks for their tunes....I hope you're wrong. I like the clean aesthetics of internal, but the overall shitf*ckery that goes on to set it up or replace a cockpit part is overkill. Bike mechanics need more money AND CONSUMERS need to recognize that the product they're purchasing is going to COST MORE f*ckING MONEY THAN THEY'VE EVER EXPERIENCED TO INSTALL AND KEEP RUNNING.

 I always irked me that they listed the MSRP for the bike when it was new, and then showed that it was “on sale” down to their price.

 Nah, you still need to pay more than the original MSRP for a four year old bike.

 this!

 Reminds me of Performance Bike's "mega weekend clearance sale extravaganza"...which they had each weekend. The sale price was based on some delusional MSRP + 30% in-store price for bikes that were not quite exactly what the manufacturer's website specs stated since Performance (and Nashbar) sold one-off "reject" oem kits. But HURRY DOWN, this 50% sale won't last long.
The $250 July Tour de France coupon was PC's big coupon....then add tax and shipping.

 Right?! I had them quote me a trade-in value on two previous bikes that were basically brand new. They offered me 50% less than a frame cost for a complete bike. As well, the other bikes that were less SPECT were about 50% more expensive than what they should be. I had a feeling last year that they were heading towards the world of hurt if they had to make that much margin.

 ***weird accidental double post***

 Exactly. I don’t know why anyone would buy most of their listed bikes.

 @Simann: same happened to me. Offered me $500 on a frame that ended up selling for $1300 on PB.

 Or it'll just go away....

 @ATXZJ: Same. Less than $500 for a complete gravel build that I sold for $1200 locally. I figured I would see what they had to offer while my ad was still up, it was a complete joke.

 At one point, I chatted with them to let them know maybe they'd want to consider the price on a USED w/o warranty Status frame that you could be new direct from the Specialized site for the same price.

TPC could probably make even more money selling the data of the people who buy bikes from them.

 @ReformedRoadie: You're probably on to something about selling personal data being a future source of income for TPC. I understand running a business like that is expensive and you have to buy low sell as high as possible to remain viable, but overall their model isn't working. they will have to subsidize their revenue with something to remain (or start being) competitive in the used market.

 @dpars63: I get that they need to make money...but they seem completely out of touch on pricing. If they want to sell, they need to be competitive and show value. If they want inventory, they need to actually pay something to take in used product. They rode the wave when there was no new bikes available...now that wave has crashed and they have not adjusted.

I meant the sell of data from them the way you'd say if they went for that deal, I have some prime real estate for sale in North Jersey they may be interested in...

 @ReformedRoadie: I think we are saying the same thing. Yeah, they made money when no inventory was available. I don't think they can make money now that the market is self correcting. . I'm not sure if they are out of touch, or simply are on the edge of what is feasible for them and reducing their price structure might signal they need to file for bankrupts because they cant make it work. They have to have high velocity throughput or it doesn't work.

 Totally agree. Have wondered how their business model will make sense. But then a lot of models made sense when rates were 0%

 hahaha they once had a White Industries hub on eBay that i needed for a restoration project, and it had been on there for months. I offered a fair price for said hub and they declined. Finally found a near new hub for 25% cheaper than their asking price.

 Sitting across the street from the Pro's Closet as we speak. Parking lot is pretty empty.

 @ReformedRoadie: that’s the thing… right now they don’t need inventory. All their lowball offers reflect that, they’re just hoping someone really needs the money and will take a ridiculous offer.

 @TTASS: When they first opened and had last season rentals for sale from trestle/granby, it wasn't a horrible thought... then I recall hearing low offers, seeing prices for used bikes jump randomly, and I think a few friends said some of their guys had egos.

Mechanics can mess around when youre paying for suspension/etc rebuild for $/hr, but cracking jokes with high prices and low ball offers would cause me to avoid.

 @stevemokan: I dont think so, I think their lowball offers are signalling that they dont want any new inventory. They have way too much and any spend for them is bad. They are kind of screwed as more companies put bikes on sale. I spent 3K on my Status, now they are $2250. If I want to sell my bike used realistically it needs to be well under 2K, probably around $1800. However they probably bought Status' around 2K a year ago so they effectively are going to loose money.

On a side note, I love my bike and if anyone wants a hell of a deal $2250 is a steal right now for what you get.

 F those guys! Their pandemic pricing was some greedy ass shit!

 @Bushmaster123: Ain't that the truth! Like I said earlier, I knew they were up shits creek two years ago when they were lowballing and trying to flip beat up used bikes for 90% of the price of new. Their operating costs must be astronomical.

 @dh909: yeah I got my frame + shock from TPC like 4 years ago and paid like $650 which I was really happy with. And a friend of mine got a XT level Intense for around $3k at the beginning of the pandemic, which was pretty good considering you couldn't get a bike anywhere at that time. But the pricing since then has been a joke. I just can't figure out who's selling all these custom/boutique/high end bikes to them for the lowball prices they seem to be offering. There are some seriously gorgeous bikes in that showroom.

 It worked out for me! They bought my bike for more than I had it listed on the buy n sell here. I’m not sure how they did the math but woohoo!

 That would be a start for them to stay afloat. Offer the customers value in some way other than just trying to rip off higher prices for used gear. If I do the legwork myself on the PB B/S/T forums I can save more money in almost every case than buying from the Pro's Closet. If they want to survive they have to provide a reason to use their services.

 Or pay reasonable prices. They used to be ok in what they would pay for a bike. The last couple years they have turned into bike thieves. I got more for the frame and shock than they offered for the entire bike with all high end components.

 @bkm303: I wonder if they offer responsible prices to the seller for some of the really boutique/custom bikes as a way to get them in and draw people to their site and low ball all the other stuff. Either way tbh the seem like a crappy place to buy a bike.

 @93EXCivic: They offered me $2,600 for my 2022 Yeti SB130. Full Fox factory, carbon wheels, GX AXS, Hayes Dominions etc. The bike was absolutely sick and ended up getting more than double what they offered lol.

 How can they even have enough employees to lay off a percentage of them? Dude sold weird used bikes on Ebay

 I don't think anyone really thought it would last. Most Companies "In sales" ramp up when needed and layoff when not needed. Unless you own the company, you are just another cog in the wheel, and when that wheel needs less cogs, people will be cut.
The Bike industry has set a new high price standard, and only time will tell if they can keep selling bikes at these elevated prices. Supply and demand will work that out. But what many need to realize is that Sales ( revenue ) are only part of the equation. Net Profit is what companies essentially look at to determine what is sustainable and what is not.
Sales can be down 25%, but profit up 50%. Many would produce less bikes with less labor and keep profits high and net income could stay the same or higher.

 Abso-freakin-lutely!!

 I was also thinking that for the first time in a while, there's no "next big thing" in MTB that makes me want a new bike. Geometry and suspension tech is pretty dialed in at this point, new releases are providing pretty modest improvements over current stuff (frame storage?) I'm the kind of doofus who has bought a new bike every 1-2 years for a decade, but don't anticipate replacing either of my MTBs for a while.

 Nothing wrong, just back to pre-pandemic days as they inflate it to appear like something terrible. Personally i much prefer it how it was across the board.

 In the tech industry (where I work) the past few months have seen over 60,000 layoffs from big tech companies. While this seems massive, its only like 15% of the new hires from the last 18 months alone. I'm curious if this is the same general trend for the bike industry.

 @Drew-O: 100% agree here.

 The big (and some small) companies who own their manufacturing facilities and can more easily scale up and down to meet demand are going to come out ahead of the companies who outsource and need to place production orders months or years in advanced.

 @Drew-O: I feel like some years ago, most (at least DH) mid tier and oem designs were nearly world cup tier not long before. After riding a few rental fox 40rc2xyz, and a dhx2 shock for a season, the oem van rc fork and shock on my gambler had far less repairs, as long as coils and seals are setup.

 Nobody predicted the highs were there to stay, where are the brands saying that?

Large companies put out financial reports, the reports say sales are down, why do you assume anyone is being 'slapped down' or is surprised?

 @justanotherusername:
Seems to me the smart companies found a way to create sustainable growth during the bike boom, and beyond.
While others used it as the means to go bankrupt they’ve been waiting for- with a government grant to break the fall.
I still wonder about those smaller companies that went belly up and cried foul. This industry is as seasonal as DH skiing. Not their first rodeo..

 @Untgrad: This industry isn’t really seasonal though, I can’t see how you work that out, especially with a global market.

Which companies do you have in mind that have gone bankrupt and waited for govt help then?

You don’t have much experience / knowledge about the bike biz, do you?

 @justanotherusername:
Thanks for telling me what I know!

 @Untgrad: say what?

 @HB208 tesla MSRP's were not that deep, more in the teen range. Also, unlike Tesla, the bike industry brands receive no government subsidies like tesla does, if I recall, tesla has received billions from the Govt.

 @yakimonti:
I used to work for Tesla in the early days circa 2008.
I was self employed during COVID and was offered a small business grant. Didn’t take it.

 @yakimonti: 20% on some versions of the model Y

www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2023/01/14/tesla-price-drop-model-y-electric-vehicle-tax-credits-sales/11054690002

 What is this? A Sram facility for ants!?

 immediately thought legos!

 @Telebikes: The facility has to be……. at least three times bigger

 @Telebikes: Haha - just watched Zoolander last night.

 @Telebikes: The SRAM center for kids who can't bike good and want to do other things too.

 @SpacePeanut: I scrolled for these comments. Pinkbike thanks you.

 @Telebikes:
Ants who can’t ride good.

 I'm ok with that. Less crowds.

 Bingo.

 Back to the malls and restaurants, those gains are are back to fatter asses

 I started digging hardcore to deal with the crowds, and now I just got into the habit and have better trails hah

 @mariomtblt: send links.... oh sorry didn't read your comment right

 Double digit inflation... 2-3% raises. Company is like... what we're giving you guys raises....

In reality your'e making progressively less money annually. This is why people tend to jump companies WAY more than they did back in the day.

 JFC, no sh*t. Top comment.

 @onemanarmy: It's really easy to jump companies when you get laid off.

 @onemanarmy: lol thats exactly what my company did... and when people asked why raises weren't inline with inflation they tried to come up with something like how inflation in the economy doesn't relate to employee wages.

 8% inflation and a 3% "cost of living" raise is essentially a 5% pay cut lol

 @cmi85: clearly you didn’t read that Microsoft is laying off 10,000 people.

Ten thousand

 @like2pedal: .........and?

 @onemanarmy: it’s the ‘80s all over again

 @tsewhsoj: Raises are based on performance and compared to the rest of industry not inflation. That is what I was told... I generally like my company but that kind of pissed me off.

 @93EXCivic: employers....."managers" specifically......all like to think they know EVERYTHING about the "industry" and what every single other company in that industry is paying and bonusing and comp'ing, etc. When in reality, most "managers" are just there from being promoted not because of some exceptional knowledge about everything macroeconomics.

 @93EXCivic: I also heard something similar. Guess it doesn’t matter to the higher ups that we had a record year…

 @hellanorcal: you ain't wrong. LOL! Been there...

 With prices still at 90% of msrp.

 Yeah I listed a road bike and have had very little interest. Its ok - I honestly don't need to sell it.

 @HB208: I got lucky with my sale. I listed across the internet and Hella dropped my price. Only to sell it to a dude on Facebook.

 @Jaib06: I'm not going to worry about it. I have had some people be like "the bike market is soft so give it to me for an unreasonably low price." I don't need to sell it so I am not interested in doing a fire sale on the bike.

 I'd like to see a data chart of that over the last few years.

 @Doogster: ha! That will continue for a while. People who were/are new to the sport probably feel their bikes hold better value than they actually do. Wait till the bike companies start slashing prices off their previous model year stuff…people who bought during/ because of covid are going to eat it here in the coming years.

 @scbullit36: Lots of people that got into mtb during covid, probably found out that mtb is not for them coupled with an economy that is not good. Same goes for a lot of outdoor sports.

 I just built a new bike with all new parts, a lot bought on Black Friday deals for cheaper than most people are asking for used bikes.

 @scbullit36: Couldn't be more right. The amount of second hand bikes being advertised on the buy sell for over $6500 is nuts. Def residual covid market mentality. If someone has that money for a bike, its unlikely they're going to buy second hand. Someone dropping 6k on a bike will be aware of the warranty implications, necessary maintenance - bearings, suspension, brakes, etc. and most of these ads fail to give piece of mind that these things have been cared for.

There's even a bike listed for ~$7500 that has nearly no info on the specs, and has misspelled the make - despite it being written in size 300 font, black on white, on the downtube. Surely that sort of attention to detail isn't going to be 'confidence inspiring' when doing a multi-thousand dollar transaction.

 @BigMulaCeazy: a used bike shouldn’t cost over 5k anymore. Just built a Stumpy, all XO1, TRP brakes, Fox Factory, carbon wheels, pretty much top of the line all around for a hair over 6k. You’d be crazy to buy used for over 6k and forgo your warranties for no cost savings.

 @iantmcg: 100%. This winter I was trying to buy a used stumpy frame off buy/sell and the prices were dumb. I ended up finding a brand new frame at a local shop that was the same or less than what people were asking for their 2 year old frame with an unserviced shock.

 That's nucking futs cause like a month ago I counted about 30,000

 "In other news - in 2 weeks time, total Pinkbike BuySell ads have increased from around 64,000 to over 101,000"

Is this true or a joke? Not being a dick, just genuinely curious and surprised.

 @hellanorcal: www.pinkbike.com/buysell at the top middle (desktop version) it currently says 101,762. Not joking I looked in January a couple times and saw around 30,000

 @scbullit36: local guy would not go less than $2200 for a used status because he paid $3k and put chester pedals and new grips on it . . .

I just bought a new one instead.

 @BigMulaCeazy: Bro, the bike is ride-wrapped. We good!

 And tons of those are scam ads- I'm seeing waaaaay more of those lately. Lots of user joined a day ago and has three frames in 3 different sizes with photos taken in three different locations for sale in the BuyandSell. Can you say sketchy? LOL

 @gtrguy: Yup. To be fair...its also going into Spring...no reason to list bikes in teh winter.

 @gtrguy: most of the bikes I've tried to purchase of late have been scams. But if you report them, pb does a good job of blasting them in a day or two to let the community know

 @BigMulaCeazy: Exactly this! If you are expecting a multi-thousand dollar transaction, put every last detail in that ad. Yes, including geometry. You can't just throw up a couple low-res images and say "whoever gets this is getting a smoking' deal!"

 @DCF: Yeah, I've been reporting them when I see them and PB has been pretty quick to take action.

 @DCF: Just curious how were they scams?

 @tacklingdummy: they only want to ship the product and only accept a Zelle or Venmo transaction. Or, they will take PayPal but only as a friend/family transaction. Another red flag is if you request to pick up the bike in person they ghost you. Even if you're only 20 minutes away from the town the bike is being sold in. Some of the pictures I've seen are also ripped off from real bikes being sold on eBay.

 @DCF: The scam criminals ruin it for everyone selling on PB or any other online selling platform. Argh..... Good to know. Thanks for the info.

 @tacklingdummy: for what it's worth i sold a handful of bikes in 2022. Nothing but lies and scams on fb market-place and Craigslist. Basically a waste of my time. Every bike I've sold has been to a pinkbike member. So it's still the best place to sell mid-high end mtbs

 @DCF: Yeah, I have sold and bought a few bikes on CL and FB, but it was not without a lot of hassle. PB is good place to sell and buy. It is just more difficult to sell a bike online and have to ship it.

 @tacklingdummy: I got you

imgur.com/a/3kEE0MG

Data taken from the wayback machine

 @Kersh: First pump. The data is very telling on what has happen in last couple of years and what is happening right now. Interesting.

 You guys know there are plenty of other good tires that aren't Maxxis, right? Save yourself $30+ and try something new.

 @bkm303: Good, sure. As good... haven't found those yet at a substantially cheaper price.

 @bkm303: or, learn where to order them from where they are $45-55 and just split the shipping with your friends cause its flat rate and stop buying Maxxis tires from Amazon or Jenson's.

 I got 4 new Continentals in trail and enduro casings for the price of two MAXXIS. I've also heard good things about Goodyear.

 @Sweatypants: If you're talking CRC, that door has closed. BikeInn has limited stock and not flat rate. Haven't gone to Bike24 yet. Where are you buying without customs hassles?

 You can get two free Maxxis tires if you buy WR1 Convergence wheels, that's almost like getting free WR1 Convergence wheels when you buy two Maxxis tires...

 @bkm303: I've been using Specialized's tires for the last two years now. I now have them on three different bikes, they've got good tread patterns, compounds and as of recent, I was able to get two Gravity Casing tires for $110 total... or about the cost of one Maxxis tire.

They wear fine and I haven't had any issues. Did about 250 days of riding last year.

 @kfilenda: yeah specialized and bontrager tires seem super underrated, and pretty easy to find on sale. Been really happy with the Vittoria and WTB tires I got on sale too.

Tried Delium too. I liked them but I only got a couple hundred miles before the side knobs started falling off. TBF though, they were $45 at full price and when I complained they sent me a new one.

 @Eatsdirt: try www.bike-discount.de/en I used them several times before moving to Mexico. Ordered some Conti's after moving and had no problems receiving them here, which was surprising.

 @Eatsdirt: I just looked at my last order. 29x2.50" DHF Skinwalls for $35/ea. Exchange rate was a bit better 4-5 months ago. Still close enough. Your answer is in this thread. Shipping is like $45 regardless of whether you order 20 things or 2 things, so plan wisely and make an efficient purchase.

 @jhess8: were they the new gen continentals or the only crappy ones?

 There are some better cheaper options out there.

 @kfilenda: Yeah, I'm rocking the Specialized Hillbilly front Butcher back. Lighter grid versions, but the casings are still stout. Also, tread patterns are good, wear is good, and they are not heavy. Price is good. Maxxis tire wear out fast for me.

 @kfilenda: yup picked up 4 spec tires with gravity cases and t7/t9 compounds a few months ago for $10 per tire on some wild sale. Even at full list a butcher/eliminator combo has been my go to the last 2 seasons.

 @Sweatypants: Guessing you're referring to bike discount. I'm seeing $52.07 + shipping costs. You sure about that flat rate?

 @Eatsdirt: it goes by a weight range. When I ordered my conti's I also ordered shoes and some other things. Shipping was something like $40 to Mexico with DHL

 @Eatsdirt: The new Conti stuff is better and cheaper, especially the enduro compounds.

 @noodlewitnosteeze: The equivalent to my daily driver DD tires appear to be Conti DH level. Prices on Kryptotal DH don't seem to be much cheaper domestically, if any... but might try them anyway given the hype.

 it's worse than that.....ok. preface time! my wife is very good friends with the Founder of MFF. so I have some insight here....


MFF's model was fat women(sorry, I don't want to type 405 words describing what I mean without saying fat), buying HIGH END CYCLING clothes.....the rub here(zero pun intended) is that no one is a HIGH END cyclist when they are obese......sure, people get into it obese, but by the time you decide to buy $1000 in cycling kit, you have lost a shit ton(still no pun intended) of weight, and can buy normal clothes and your options are limitless.

so the model was set for failure once the brand was sold to Spesh.....it should have been kept niche, and it could have continued on in it's limited and focused scope, in perpetuity.

 @Mtbdialed: sounds like a very limited market. Not fat women. Ones that cycle and buy high end kits.

 @Mtbdialed: So does that mean the number of obese female dentists is very low? That makes sense, I've been to many different dentists in my life and they were all skinny to regular.

 @txcx166: that isn't true at all......Castelli sells $275 bibs to women all day long. But it's performace gear that is sized very.....Italian.

 All it takes is one company to offer a discount and every other lemming company will offer the same discount.

 Many companies are already starting to offer discounts. A sale sold at a small loss is better than an item sitting on a shelf unsold, at least now the cashflow is better.

 As the saying goes, "The best cure for high prices, is high prices."

 "were there some "experts" claiming that "only pills" is the better alternative? "

You answered your own question.

It takes data, lots of data to go up against Big Pharma.

 While on the surface that point may sound like a rather stupid realization, the honest truth is that research is required for the implementation of widespread programs that utilize this approach. Simply assuming that letting kids move will benefit their ADHD related problems simply isn´t enough for either doctors or parents to convince to spend time and resources on such a project.
Most parents are already burnt out, finding the extra time for a potential treatment that involves time consuming freetime activities which to many seems like a risky endevour when they´re already walking on the edge in terms of time management. To these people "knowing" what they´re doing will be worth it and better their situation is important. We can´t look at this from the perspective of people with non-neurodivergent kids. To us it seems obvious that a kid will balance itself out through strenuous activity. With ADHD kids that is not the case. These kids will often times work you and themselves into the ground and then be back for round two a second later, frustrating themselves the most in the process. Furthermore, these kids don´t just wan´t to move. They show a plethora of symptoms ranging from excessive movement to poor impulse control, irritability and high levels of frustration. The parents often won´t see any immediate benefit from most programs, especially since simply putting them on a bicycle won´t magically transform them into a regular kid. In reality, these benefits will likely appear in the long run, especially when utilized together with many other approaches, so knowing that the benefits are likely to occur at some point is important to those working with these kids and their parents.
I´ve seen too many parents jump from program to program, switching approach every week and at some point simply going through the motions with no hope to ever see any change.
Being able to tell these people that research can back up the claims is vital to keeping them focused on a chosen path and giving the kids time to reap the benefits.
There´s also too many programs with big claims but no data to back them up. Also a lot of esoteric nonsense that only tries to sound appealing to hopeless parents through the use of some new age bs approach.

I like to hate on big pharma as much as the next guy, but in this case that really is besides the point.
Some kids need the pills to not implode in spectacular fashion. Too many are on pills because their support system and society failed them. But that´s a whole different story to the research at hand, which is useful and important and taking the "i could have told you that" approach is frankly not helping the problem but rather cementing it.
As @hellanorcal states, it takes data to go up against these deeply ingrained ideas, but it´s not really big pharma, it´s society who expects the parents and doctors to quickly reign in these misfit kids by the most effective means available and that´s when we started putting all these kids on pills. Being able to show the research on alternative approaches is important to convince doctors, schools and society as a whole that there are other viable ways of symptom alleviation that don´t involve the excessive use of pills. It´s the factual armament the parents need in order to stand by an alternate approach in the face of criticism and pressure from (for example) teachers who try to push them down the sedative route only to keep their classroom in order.

What i´m trying to say is, don´t knock the people who are doing that research. It may sound mundane on the surface, but empirical data has more uses than simply generating knowledge which seems rather apparent to the untrained eye. That knowledge can then be used for change in a goal driven and directed manner. Without empirical data, anyone can simply push the idea aside. Research like this will also allow us to at some point pinpoint the mechanisms through which the activity affects the "problem", which then allows us to generalize it to other approaches. Maybe football has the same effect. Maybe it´s the rather solitary environment which cycling generates in combination with the bodily exercise which actually helps these kids focus on themselves and a team sport like footbal would be counterintuitive as it tends to much more feed into their frustrations and tends to overload their mental capacity (my personal observation). There´s so many variables we don´t see at a quick glance, which often times turn out to be the main contributing factor.
Don´t knock the seemingly mundane research. We wouldn´t be were we are today if at some point some dumbass hadn´t stuck their hand into a firepit only to realize it´s hot.

 Exercise is great and all that but how do you pack it into a patented pill that can be sold?

 @DylanH93: Easy - sedative pills for adhd will work instantly, any other solutions including exercise will take time and other people involment.
So you have two possible solutions:
a) INSTANT solution which require no time and effort, you throw some $$$ in buying pills and problem "solved". Of course you must repeat this regularly (daily?) but it only cost you $$$.
b) solution which takes TIME and INVOLVEMENT.

Which solution is preferred by parents and doctors you can tell by yearly BigPharma profit reports

As @Loki87 wrote above, this is probably oversimplification of problem, but in general i think there could be waaaaay less people dependant on pills for some mental health issues if only someone would be prepared to invest time and involvement into them, not just box of pills.

 I call this the "Golden Retriever Strategy"... I use it with my boys as much as possible. It's easy to see that kids that get to exercise and run around like the crazy beasts they are more apt to behave when it's required. Get those kids outside and tire them out!!

PS: Before someone jumps on me this is NOT to suggest that there aren't folks out there that require medication to treat their ADD/ADHD etc. Merely to agree that exercise is helpful when dealing with highly energetic kids.

 I'm not necessarily saying it should be the one or the other. But with pretty much everything, getting the lifestyle in check is the first solution, then for the situations where that isn't sufficient (which most of the times are situations where there is no room for a healthy lifestyle), that's where medication could help you with the final bit. I wouldn't necessarily call ADHD a disorder, there is just a mismatch with western structures and expectations. Already as a teen I structurally got up at half past five, took cold showers, took care of eating healthy, was active because I was getting restless or unhappy when I didn't do this. I studied whilst listening to death metal because that worked best for me. That's what's the main thing to help a kid with, help them find out what works for them and what doesn't. I got quite far this way even though people told me I had ADHD. Not because I had a diagnosis or even was a troublemaker, but I did need to get rid of the energy I had. I couldn't preserve it, I needed to blow-off what I had. This only became an issue when I got stuck at university and had to do three hour long tests. I just couldn't stay put on a chair for that long and perform. I kept failing and eventually quit and started to work. That's when my girlfriend (who's an orthopedagogue) told me that I might indeed have ADHD and it isn't such a bad idea to get tested. I was scared shitless by the whole idea because I had this image of Kurt Cobain who apparently was a happy kid but also a bit of a trouble maker and the medication transformed him into that sad hero. Well, at least that was the image I had about medication back then. Eventually I did get the diagnosis at 30 years old and got medication to play with. It helped me summon that level of concentration I could sometimes get, but wasn't always there when I needed it. I finished my master whilst caring for two young kids and working four days a week. Funny thing I learned from my girlfriend one day is that she once attended a presentation about findings that ADHD kids might perform worse in silent situations than non-ADHD kids, but when subject to intense music the ADHD kids would perform better and the non-ADHD kids wouldn't perform at all. Funny one. I learned that death metal worked well for me when studying even though people back then told me it was a bad idea. So yeah, I do think that kids (to some extend) can identify what works for them and what doesn't.

There are different sides to this and this is just me. If I wouldn't have had my approach as a kid, I might have performed much worse and would have been more of a troublemaker. Which could have been a reason for an earlier diagnosis which might have saved me quite some frustration and hard work later on. Yet at the same time, I might have taken the harder road but it did work out eventually and I've learned much more about myself. There are just some situation which are a mismatch with what I can make work for myself (like those three hour tests I had to pass) and that's where some dexamphetamine can help. Just when I just have to dig through a big pile of paperwork and just get it done. But still, I think the basis should be the lifestyle, the pills should be the fix for those odd situations.

 @Loki87: Is this Pinkbike? That is one hell of a thoughtful, detailed and nuanced piece of prose. Too bad I can only upvote once.

 As, the saying goes, "A tired dog is a good dog." That applies to humans as well.

 @tacklingdummy: It may be different for everyone, but don't you feel it like that too? That when you have energy in you that you can't release, you get restless and eventually get sad? If the excess energy is there, allow it to flow. Like a pressure chamber, allow it to blow off the excess pressure before you can put something back in. The thing is, many school systems (or maybe also day rhythms) are such that the person is required to absorb a lot of input before it is allowed to blow off steam. But if the person is already "pressurized", just release that first before you even try to put something in. So for me it is good that I got up early, could get a run in and always rode my bike to school, uni and now to work. But if kids are just plucked from bed, have to rush to get ready, then get in a car or bus to get to school, really how would you expect them to arrive once they get there?

 Krauss-Maffei builds Leopards. Rheinmetall does make the tubes for the main gun though.

 They’re the two main brands that will unanimously sell solely on the clout people think they have riding them.

 @DizzyNinja: you missed the point

 I guess it means they're aware, but not really interested to actually do much about it. As a ~6' woman in my few years of (trail) biking it really hasn't gotten much easier to find gear that fits. Trousers are too short (and only come in one length) and even as normal weight only a few brand makes clothes big enough. Still not big enough jerseys to fit any protection layers underneath, so I'm glad I'm not into that. I like to wear more MTB style stuff on gravel rides as well, but as soon as the weather gets colder, my only option are tights (or exposed ankles). Sure being this tall is an issue with women's clothes in general, but cycling gear is much worse.

Having gained some weight due to illness shopping became impossible, luckily I'm moving back towards my usual size. Machines for Freedom seemed interesting, but since they only ship directly from them in the US, ordering stuff to Europe with postage, customs and taxes maybe to find out they didn't fit and need to return it... Didn't get me to give them a try.

 That's always bugged the hell out of me - built in obsolescence, and man are you in for a world of hurt if you want someone to work on it for you.

 wait 12 months. it'll go back to what the end of the season used to be like 5 years ago. just be patient.

 @Sweatypants: I'm dying to see what happens with all those $6k used bikes the pro's closet is trying to move once that happens.

But yeah I think you're about right with the timing. Bought me an angleset and some new bearings at the beginning of the pandemic and decided to ride it out

 @bkm303: yea man. it already started back again this last black friday. next year will be just like 2008-2019, frames for 30-50% off, deals on suspension, shoes, etc... I'll be shopping next December.

 they're sorta evil, and they treat consumers like they're stupid. "specs? what specs? look its gold and oil slicky!"
"smaller chainrings and 9t cogs aren;t slower! here, look at this pretty distorted graph!"

 That would be cool to look at but it's hard for me to imagine it being worth whatever they paid for fatmap. It just doesn't seem like something people will use a lot (or pay for), but maybe I'm wrong.

I used fatmap a tiny bit for ski touring a few years ago, but I quickly went back to regular topo & satellite maps (Caltopo / Gaia / etc). The 3D mapping just doesn't seem that useful to me. But maybe I'm an idiot.

 @bkm303: Oh I have no clue why they did it as a business decision.... but maybe fatmap has some tech they want, or potentially a patent or other info. Otherwise maybe they're just eliminating competition?

 @bkm303: FATMAP is a really useful tool for backcountry skiing/ski touring, it enables you to overlay topography, gradients, and avalanche-prone areas, to name but a few features. I've been a heavy user of it over the last 5 years or so, hope that Strava doesn't change it too much. Very intrigued by the buyout though.

 @motardnoob: true but other than the 3d stuff there are plenty of other apps that have all those features/layers (Caltopo, Backcountry Navigator, Gaia, OnX etc). Caltopo is pretty much unbeatable for custom mapping and route planning IMO. Plus as of 2019 they were the only ones with high res lidar slope angle shading (I think Gaia has it now too, not sure about the others).

 @motardnoob: Gaia has had all of these features for years now as well. As far as I’m concerned the only advantage Fatmap offered was the ability to view the map in a 3D form

 who are they? T?

 No just US grip shift from the beginning, but they pretty early on bought Sachs-Huret from Germany/France and got into the deraulieur business. Drivetrain developmen still in Germany today.

 @DrChaos: many thanks

 You can't make me..... Dammit. Yes you can. My brain read it exactly that way. I am but a puppet.

 It's not confusing at all. The press release clearly states that 400 of the exhibitors are new. It doesn't say how many exhibitors from the previous edition have dropped out. However, the attentive reader will understand that it is less than 400 as the "the total number will exceed the 1,500 who attended last year".

 It’s a mansion in nyc lol

 My brother in Christ, that is 200 sq ft less than my 3 bdrm HOUSE. I don't think I've ever seen a 1 bdrm apartment that size anywhere.

 Strava basic is free unless you pay for extra stat fees.

 @Ck7lOi: I know that. But you have to pay for daily stats etc