Specialized Lays Off 8% of its Employees in "Organization Adjustment"

Jan 12, 2023 at 2:50
by Ed Spratt  
2021 Specialized Turbo Levo

Specialized has announced that it is laying off 8% of its employees across the company.

A press release published on Wednesday revealed the Specialized layoffs would affect staff globally and included workers at company-owned retail stores in the U.S. and overseas. Bicycle Retailer found public fillings suggesting that the company was planning to lay off around 120 workers in the U.S.

The layoffs come after Specialized states the global economy is "changing faster than anticipated and rapid changes within cycling." The company claims this round of layoffs will allow it to be "adaptive, whilst still investing in innovation."

bigquotesWe are transforming the company around our purpose to Pedal the Planet Forward. Our priority is to better serve riders, retailers, and communities and to be the best place for our teammates to innovate and grow. The time is now to adapt to the current environment and ultimately led us to make some extremely tough decisions today. I want to recognize those teammates who departed and thank them for all their contributions, hard work, and dedication to Specialized. We are focused on ensuring that they are fully supported during this difficult time. It may be tough to see in the moment, but the future of cycling and the future of our brand is bright. Scott Maguire, Specialized CEO

This news follows Specialized ending contracts with ambassador athletes with a representative for the company telling VeloNews: "our social ambassador program is continuing to change with the needs of the rider, but it definitely isn’t going away."

Author Info:
edspratt avatar

Member since Mar 16, 2017
3,165 articles

486 Comments
  • 592 13
 "We are transforming the company around our purpose to Pedal the Planet Forward"

Sit down, son. Be humble. You're a bike manufacturer - the world neither depends on you nor needs you in particular.
  • 179 0
 They put some serious blue sky thinking in to imagineer this one. They have definitely taken a helicopter view and will competently myocardinate their state of the art synergy.
  • 5 2
 Lol. Go figure
  • 24 0
 @bigtim: I couldn't have said it better.....or at all! I love corporate-speak.
  • 53 0
 I think my ex works(ed) for the Big S and came up with that yoga babble. Not joking. Surprised the words #magical or #grateful weren't used in the PR.
  • 60 3
 What in the greenwashing is that shit?
  • 4 1
 @bikewriter: or the over used word #amazing
  • 10 4
 Trek liked to talk about being 'aboard the sparkly bus' (I kid you not) and only refer to the current downturn as 'landing the plane'. FFS.
  • 81 1
 @Longrider: Full disclosure: I used to work in marketing and PR so I'm just as guilty. I would secretly like when an editor or recipient of my mass-sent canned cliches would reply with a "are you kidding me?!"
My ex would not use "amazing". She used "delicate dance", "new season", and the best/most over-used "teachable moment."
You've been in the PR game too long when readers can guess it's your work no matter the company that's hired you as a consultant. The email or text "did you write that...." means you're in a rut but don't know it.
Best of luck to the 8% because the 1% at Big S truly don't care.
  • 71 0
 Cleary the Assistant Director of Corporate Bullshit Messaging wasn't part of the 8%
  • 8 0
 @bigtim: IMAGINEER, lol, that's a good one!
  • 23 0
 Posted yesterday- Specialized just acquired the old Pearl Izumi building in CO. for "$14.9 million " !!!

www.bicycleretailer.com/industry-news/2023/01/11/specialized-buys-former-pearl-izumi-building#.Y8Ab-T3MLIU

They have been doing radical things lately with acquiring, then turn around a ditch employees and riders + the hiring of of new riders. Kinda nuts if you ask me. The new CEO is like The Wolf Of Wallstreet.
  • 16 1
 @bikewriter: The 1% at SpecEd know they will have to cut prices to sell bikes. It’s now a buyers market and we’re telling them their prices need to normalize.
  • 31 0
 @rivercitycycles: $12,999 isn't normal?
  • 23 36
flag dthomp325 (Jan 12, 2023 at 7:05) (Below Threshold)
 @bigtim: Specialized likely has the biggest r&d budget in the industry and whatever they are doing today is what everyone else will be doing 3 years from now, so it’s kind of true.
  • 42 7
 Not even a bicycle manufacturer. it is their chinese and vietnamese suppliers that are bicycle manufacturers. They are a brand act. The whole statement would be hilarious if it wasn't so embarrasing. Monty Python stuff.
  • 2 0
 it seems to me many are too far gone, they'll choose to sink with the ship
  • 45 0
 When Dyson laid off 900 people 2 years ago this text was part of the PR...

"“We are evolving our organisation and reflecting these changes to make us faster, more agile, and better able to grow sustainably.

“These proposals would regrettably result in around 600 redundancies in the UK and 300 in the rest of the world. We are fully supporting those who are impacted..."

It seems Scott took the script with him.
  • 10 0
 @dthomp325: I'm glad someone understood what I wrote. I certainly didn't.
  • 9 5
 They are not even a bike manufacturer. They do not manufacture anything. They do have some good product and market the heck out of it though.
  • 5 0
 @rivercitycycles: They've been killing it over covid and now this short term knee-jerk reaction? Markets are always cyclical, sometimes you save in the good times to ride out the tough times (for them defined as any time you aren't expecting record profits, again...). But they have decided to cut costs - my question - when should we expect to see prices drop with these savings? Why not mention price reductions on the 2023 models in the same article? Probably cause they won't...
  • 3 1
 @dthomp325: not sure why you got beg prop … that is actually how it works and will happens to the majority
  • 2 0
 @watchmen: Surely this is some kind of bullshit manager speak , like ringfencing the unicorn
  • 9 0
 @bikewriter: yoga babble lmao. stealing that one
  • 6 0
 @krka73: Imagineer was termed by the Disney Company way back when they started building Disneyland. So really, it should be Imagineer (C) (TM) Smile
  • 3 0
 @krka73: isn't that what Disney calls their engineers? Although in their case I think it *is* appropriate
  • 17 24
flag DoubleCrownAddict (Jan 12, 2023 at 8:36) (Below Threshold)
 Specialized: We are laying of some people and came up with a new slogan implying we still want to get people on bikes.

Pinkbike reactionary Internet clownboys: Fully emotionally triggered.
  • 14 1
 @Compositepro: Tip of the iceberg my friend......lived (just) through an 8 hour video presentation called 'winning the season' with keynote speakers, one of which was CEO of Burberry, who delighted in regailing us with how one of her underlings did'nt seem very happy so was immediately 'released her to find her happiness' by being replaced with the barista who made her coffee on the way to the office that morning.Inspiring stuff.
  • 12 1
 @bikewriter: the top 1% have never cared at any company and never will
  • 13 7
 @dthomp325: how dare you express admiration for a well-run and profitable corporation!? Only members of polyamorous communes working by hand to make bikes in and around Squamish are allowed, as long as they don't make too much money!
  • 29 1
 They could have just told the truth. "Our previous CEO lost a d*ck swinging contest buying up IBD's and now we're cleaning up the mess."
  • 29 0
 Specialized discovers they overspent on Ebike engineers as college student owns them with drill battery and skateboard motor
  • 1 0
 @jaame: for a Rolex, sure......
  • 2 0
 @bigtim: Points for throwing the word "synergy" in there.
  • 3 0
 @likeittacky: Wonder if they're planning on getting out of California. There's less tying them here that what Santa Cruz has....
  • 2 0
 @jaame: yes if it’s a used ducati
  • 3 0
 @mmcengineer: hell I got my used Hypermotard last summer with 4k miles on the clock for $3k and its been a good bike after another 3.5k miles of riding. Really puts things into perspective when I wheel it into the garage next to my mtb that was a couple grand more expensive.
  • 3 0
 @likeittacky: This was my initial thought. Gotta pay for that building somehow.
  • 5 2
 @salespunk: Not totally true in the bike industry. There are a bunch of companies who sell close to or in to the 100's of millions who are privately owned. Owners and management at 'some' of these companies actually care a WHOLE lot: their work force is not disposable and they'd rather take a huge personal financial hit than lay off employees... even to the ongoing financial detriment of the company (not always smart). Corporate 1% is a totally different thing than private company 1%.
  • 1 0
 @onemanarmy: Funny that would be; when Pearl Izumi is moving to Cali.
  • 1 0
 @likeittacky: Didn't Shimano sell them last year to a company based in California? And it has nothing to with the asian or European segments of Pearl Izumi as those are completely separate....
  • 1 0
 @onemanarmy: they were certainly thinking about it when I took some interviews there around 15 months ago. They were realizing that outside of Directors and VPs, their employees could afford to live around Morgan Hill. I heard mention of Utah and Colorado. I got the sense they’d keep “HQ” there for select executives to work from and for the sake of their heritage, but move most staff elsewhere.
  • 1 0
 @onemanarmy: Yes. I dunno about the later part though.
  • 10 0
 @watchmen: that's rough, I got away from that bunch of kool-aid drinkers before win the season time came around year, I couldn't take another 'session'. The remedy for me was to slash my way to a brand that focuses more on the rider. They spent so much wasted time and effort regurgitating corporate garbage. It's funny how out of touch the corporate shills and marketing yogi's are and how much money they are willing to waste on that garbage instead of just paying their employees better.
  • 3 0
 @trillot: "when should we expect to see prices drop with these savings?" Never
  • 1 0
 @krka73: Its a Disney reference.
  • 5 0
 @watchmen: dude....your comment about the CEO of Burberry *literally* game me chills. Sociopaths leveraging their disorders as decisive leadership traits. I'm a teacher, and once heard an assisstant principal loudly claim that all requests for technology funding were suspect as "...the best educators can teach under a tree."
  • 2 0
 Planet bats last.
  • 1 0
 @bigtim: We at Specialized approve this clear and unambiguous message.
  • 2 1
 Peddling the planet forward is gonna be tricky if they can't even afford 10% of the workforce. I hope all the workers are doing OK and find new opportunities as soon as possible and I hope that specialized bikes have given out decent severance packages.
  • 7 0
 @trillot: "They've been killing it over covid and now this short term knee-jerk reaction?"

I think the lens to view this through is that they've likely got massive cash flow issues. Presumably all their money is tied up in inventory because the bike boom has cooled off - so they they'll have landed stock like it was going to be a 900 mil $ year when it turned out to be only a 500 mil year (or whatever number, I have no idea what their revenue is). Now they're paying to store all that excess inventory and got 2023 orders to pay for as well. Suddenly they got no cash because it's all tied up, so paying salaries and ambassadors and race teams is pretty painful and cutbacks seem necessary
  • 2 0
 It look these days Marketing departments and simmilar departments use BullShit Generator for their materials Smile

www.bullshitgenerator.com
  • 4 0
 @bigtim: A cross functional agile team will be selected to hone our future vision statement and drive end to end excellence in our mission to pedal the planet forward.
  • 2 0
 @likeittacky: The old CEO wasn't any better, LOL. Job security at the big S is not a thing. SO many employees over the years in Morgan Hill arrive at work, their belongings in a box.
  • 1 0
 @dcaf: There's an actual corporate b.s. generator; it's genius. www.atrixnet.com/bs-generator.html
  • 2 0
 be ironic if specialized new HQ gets hit by a meteor....mother nature press release reads, PEDAL THAT
  • 2 0
 A little PR lingo for them ESG scores.
  • 1 2
 @salespunk: Sorry you feel that way. You sound quite jaded. That will impede your ability to succeed in the future

Your dogmatic statement is not true.
  • 1 0
 @salespunk: That Patagonia guy, though. He Cares Alot - buudoop-bap bap boop
  • 3 0
 It was over 12% actually and the solid workers that care about riders/customers were the ones laid off. The “S” is garbage, along with The new CEO. @bikewriter:
  • 1 0
 @watchmen: well , it was a flying sparkly bus after all
  • 1 0
 @trillot: no reason to expect price drops. This company like all exists for shareholder value. That's it. I work for a supposedly woke company that is laying off people in droves so that wall st is placated. Public or private thats all that lay offs are. Customers employees and everyone else mean nothing compared to investors and shareholders.
  • 3 0
 @JakeEPooh: The fact that they are letting go an entire 12% of their workforce clearly indicates that Specialized isn’t a „well-run and profitable corporation“. If anything, that’s the result of terrible management. There’s nothing to admire.
  • 1 0
 @Muscovir: You're right. I wanted to argue with you, but the truth is, I have no idea if Specialized is profitable. Nor am I qualified to say if it is a well-run company. I mean, they've been around for a long time, so they must be doing something right, but I made it sound like I am someone who can reliably assess how well a corporation is run when I have no idea. Damn you for holding me accountable to reality!
  • 241 15
 Dear corporations, we aren't stupid, just tell it like is:

"We have sacked people because our updated business plan no longer needs them and we are a business with shareholders so our job is to make money. It's completely normal to behave like this in a relatively low-regulation capitalist economy. If you want a different type of society, economy or labour laws, vote differently. This is not our problem."
  • 76 24
 I agree with everything besides ’vote differently.’ We can’t vote out capitalism.
  • 86 9
 @speed10: but you can vote in labor laws
  • 37 2
 @captaintyingknots: if you've got several million dollars in campaign funding via 'lobbying' groups. Corporate America IS America.
  • 8 0
 @watchmen: you ain't wrong :,|
  • 13 6
 @speed10: time to grab the pitchforks to disband capitalism I suppose then
  • 36 7
 @vtracer: maybe come up with a better -ism first.

All the other ones we've tried kinda sucked.
  • 16 7
 Okay. I’ll bite. Tell me more about this “labor law”. Should aligning overhead and labor with sales be illegal?
  • 36 0
 I'm so tired of this world we live in where people can't just speak plainly. The prerequisite for being in any leadership postition seems to be how full of crap you are.
  • 10 11
 @captaintyingknots: Labor laws. Sounds like more reasons to outsource. If only the world ran on the goodness and kindness in our hearts.
  • 5 0
 @jesse-effing-edwards: Because speaking plainly is viewed as "negative" in the C-suite.
  • 6 3
 @greenblur: I know, right? Look at the Soviet auto industry vs the American model, for example.
  • 10 0
 @speed10: It's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism
  • 5 0
 @speed10: We vote with our dollar.
  • 13 0
 @yupstate: I like the indoctrination of people to align with practices that are diametrically opposed to their own interests. Chapeau
  • 47 11
 Some of this layoff is from over hiring during the bike craze of the last two years. You're going to blame capitalism because people wanted bikes, then market saturation hit and people don't want as many bikes anymore? It doesn't matter what your system is that is going to lead to adjustments.

Some of the layoffs might be from mismanagement at Specialized. I have no idea I don't work there. If you think mismanagement only happens under capitalism read up about nail factories in the USSR.

Most of this is probably related to the economic downturn we are experiencing. Ebbs and flows in economics is part of the human condition no matter the way your society is organized. In this specific instance, its mostly from misallocation of resources of central governments globally, and the War in Ukraine. These are not the fault of capitalism.

In the very worst examples of capitalism, the poorest of the poor are better than average under that "different type of society", and capitalist countries build walls around themselves to keep people out, not in.
  • 11 6
 @txcx166: Not in my opinion, no - businesses have to be able to adapt.

But, for big companies with shareholders that are still turning large profits, we could for example have rules that say that if a company is still turning large profits and wants to make large scale redundancies, then it has to provide a longer notice period to allow people more time to find a good new role, rather than just any role, or maybe continue to pay their employees health insurance for a period post-redundancy.

That's just an example off the top of my head, my point is not the specifics of the law, it's that we do have a choice. Politicians get into power by telling us what we want to hear, we just need to make it clear we want to hear something else and then encourage more people to do the same, rather than spending our time doomscrolling. Rant ends Smile
  • 23 1
 @hamncheez: "different type of society" isn't specifically meant to imply socialism (or heaven forbid communism). But, from what I understand, I think it's fair to say that even amongst the capitalist Western economies, there are notable differences between the type of societies found in higher and lower regulation countries (Norway vs the US for example).
  • 5 3
 Not vote differently, move to another country that already does the system you like. I say that as someone got laid off from a bank two days ago.
  • 20 9
 @hamncheez: people complain about capitalism now, but two years ago it was govt mandated lockdowns that froze the economy, not decreased demand. printing money, killing production and distribution by mandates, and now it's 'free' market's fault for all this?

and yet people are calling for more regulation... great
  • 13 13
 @Woody25: First off, the US is not somehow less regulated than Norway. The US government is regulated by hundreds of different Federal agencies, with combined laws, regulations, directives, etc in the hundreds of thousands of pages.

The US standard of living is also not comparable to that of Norway or any of the Nordic countries. Household total consumption- everything added up from government benefits plus income plus retirement plus everything, ranks the Nordic Countries below every single US state except Mississippi.
  • 9 7
 @irafd: Agree- I didn't bring it up to keep a more neutral tone. But yes, you lock people in their houses and make it illegal for any business to do business except MegaCorp© and you're not going to have good economic outcomes.
  • 2 0
 They are closing 1 of the 5 shops here in WNC this weekend.
It's in Cherokee, NC. They bought 3 from one owner & 2 from another shop owner.

So they're closing the one with the lowest profit. Doesn't make it a non-profitable store. The old owner may have kept it open to service his customers in the region who requested it and it's good marketing and customer service to have facilities in that area. Or maybe it did make enough money to keep him happy and his employees fed.

That doesn't matter to a board room looking to get their bonus though. I'm hoping some local business owner will see it as an opportunity to invest capital and open new accounts in Cherokee to keep a bicycle business present in the Cherokee Tribe. They don't need to live off Harrah's Casino royalty checks on that Reservation.
  • 3 3
 @irafd: And the alternative was????
  • 6 0
 @captaintyingknots: just vote with your wallet when you're looking for your next bike and skip the big S. Don't underestimate the collective power of the consumers.
  • 9 4
 @watchmen: treat people like adults, and let them weigh the risk themselves. or do you need govt to babysit you for the rest of your life?
  • 5 1
 Karl Marx: Hold my beer...
  • 15 0
 This is the main difference between a private owner who cares about his or her company and a corp. The worst is if you are owned by a private equity group. They lay people off if there is a wiff of a slow down six month ahead. A private company will work with the staff and get them involved in decision making. Perhaps cut down on work hours until the slump is over. I have friends that own companies that borrowed money to keep employees. Afterwards when things turned around, the employees would do anything to help him succeed because they believed in the company. This is not a political thing.
  • 12 0
 @hamncheez: when the going gets tough, you use the capital to repair the roof not fire the grounds keepers and buy a $15 million dollar building in Colorado
  • 11 0
 @hamncheez: good point, well made - I'm incorrectly using the total quantity of regulation as a proxy for the amount and type of regulations that protect employees, and probably partly to the size of the welfare state.

I don't disagree on the consumption figures either, but the Nordic states consistently outscore us (US/UK) on happiness of the population, social capital, social cohesion etc. so I suppose the question is whether GDP per capita or the like are actually the right KPIs for the type of society we want.

I'm not declaring a side here or pretending to have the answers, I'm just saying we have choices.
  • 6 0
 @Woody25: But moar munny = Moar hapenis
  • 8 1
 @Woody25: I hear where you're coming from, but when you own any kind of business you soon learn that even benign-sounding rules like you propose create massive compliance and reporting burdens that end up raising the costs of doing business. Regulation like you propose has the inevitable affect of favoring large business one small ones. Larger companies actually love this kind of regulation because it makes it virtually impossible for new companies to rise up and compete. In the end nobody by lawyers and HR staff benefit from shit like that.
  • 5 5
 @speed10: No, but you could vote in a party that would regulate capitalism better. With lobbyist laws the way they are, and a 2 party system, that is highly unlikely at the moment, unfortunately.
  • 6 1
 @Woody25: That is why jobs are leaving to undeveloped countries. Capitalism can work. You do not want to penalize companies for success because they will turn all their employees into contractors or close down factories. The only way for Developed nations to survive is to Educate and innovate with robotics and engineering. Also, the most important thing that most don't do. "Buy local" Do not buy bikes built in China, Vietnam, Cambodia, Mexico or any undeveloped nation. Find a company and pay more to buy things that are made in your country.
  • 15 7
 @irafd: remember, the average age of commenters on pages like this is probably 23 or so. Nobody loves big government more than young people who still look to authority to wipe their noses for them and make it all better. Instead of an Outside+ badge we need an age indicator to know who to dismiss out of hand. Not enough time in the day to waste it trying to explain reality to children.
  • 4 2
 @hamncheez: shut your mouth you speaker of hate!
  • 2 1
 @irafd: . And people seem to be able to garner independant research, confer with specialists in their choosen fields and make informed and reasoned choices taking into consideration the wider implications their decisions will cause on a broader level.Seemed to work well in Brazil.
  • 4 1
 @txcx166: Tax havens for uber rich corporations (looking at you, Nike, Adidas, and Apple) should be illegal. Unfortunately, t's much easier to prosecute the middle class who cannot access such resources and cannot afford massive lawyer bills.
  • 9 0
 @TwoNGlenn: The American model had to bail out GM and Chrysler (twice for Chrysler). If we lived in an actual capitalist society, we would all be driving Japanese and German vehicles, but corporate lobbying and subsequent tariffs and bailouts have kept the big 3 afloat.
  • 21 3
 @hamncheez: Quality of life and life expectancy are sh#t in the US (77 life expectancy) compared to Norway (83). The US averages 1 week of vacation a year. Norway is 5 weeks. Expectant mothers are given 8 weeks to have a baby in the US. Norway is 12 months. US state schools are about $130,000 for a 4 year degree. Norway is free. The US has the best healthcare for the rich but one of the worst of any developed country for the working class. Most bankruptcies in the US are caused by medical issues. Norway doesn't have any from healthcare. Also, Norway rakes their forestsSmile
  • 1 1
 @JakeEPooh: I'm not taking a side here, I'm just saying there are choices.

I do actually agree with your point (I specifically said big businesses in my example), smaller businesses absolutely need less regulation to allow them to stay nimble until they grow to a size where they can afford the teams (and costs) needed to cope with regulatory compliance.

But really that's not an argument against regulation per-se, it's just an argument against badly thought out regulation, or an unwillingness to adapt regulation once the laws of unexpected consequences have kicked in.

(PS you can see people's ages on their profiles)
  • 6 1
 @blowmyfuse: so wait how much profit is enough? Who decides? Why should we trust them? If the resources dedicated to one store could be more efficiently used to improve operations somewhere else, you're saying the resources shouldn't be re-allocated unless some government drone says it's ok!? Why don't you feel pity for the customers who won't be serviced and the other employees who won't be hired? What about the people who will all be a little bit poorer because of the unnecessary costs you've inflicted on everybody involved? What about the costs involved in manning a government department to handle the regulation? How many bureaucrats making $75K + government benefits will work there producing nothing and helping nobody? Everybody's lives are all just a little bit shittier, but at least some juvenile ass-hats lacking even a basic understanding of supply and demand can feel like they are morally superior for a while before civilisation collapses.
  • 5 0
 @hamncheez: yeah, i understand you completely. people go completely insane when you point out simple facts that go against the narrative, and instead they point out how many 'lives were saved'
  • 5 1
 @JakeEPooh: yeah, that's what i'm expecting from younger people. it's when somebody older says that kind of dumb shit is what gets to me.

i find that people who have a career, are/were married, have kids, own property, took out and paid off loans, pay for utilities, take care of their family and property tend to be more mature than somebody who hasn't reached those milestones, regardless of age
  • 2 1
 @watchmen: nobody makes the best choice every time. but some do it more often than others. let people decide for themselves
  • 31 2
 @hamncheez: "The US standard of living is also not comparable to that of Norway or any of the Nordic countries. Household total consumption- everything added up from government benefits plus income plus retirement plus everything, ranks the Nordic Countries below every single US state except Mississippi."

How do you define that US Standard of living, and what exactly puts it ahead of somewhere like Norway (just as an example, since it's already been mentioned)?

Let's see what that top tier income buys the average US household.

1. Life expectancy: US = 77 yrs, Norway = 83 yrs
2. Obesity as a % of population: US = circa 42% Norway = circa 18%
3. Percentage of GDP expenditure on healthcare: US = 18% Norway = 10%
4. Percentage of GDP expenditure on education: US = 5% Norway = 15%
5. Percentage of adults with degree level education: US = 30% Norway = 35%
6. Percentage of adults who can read (UN defined literacy rate): US = 80% Norway = 100%
7. Homicide rate per 100k: US = 5.07 Norway = 0.52
8. Percentage of population in prison per 100K: US = 505 Norway = 55

It goes on. I'm not sure that having the top level household income particularly equates with having the best set up, happiest or most productive society. And It's not a question of the 'number' of amount of regulation, it's about what sort of society those regulations are designed to create & enforce, and who benefits from those regulations.
I'd argue, for example, that many US regulations are geared around the hopes, wishes and desires of the corporations they're meant to regulate against (hence the massive corporate lobby industry in the US) whereas in some other Western democratic, capitalistic countries (such as those in Scandinavia) there is a comparative lean towards a form of certain social democratic ideals, where the rules & regulations tend more towards a general social benefit vs a more narrow focus corporate one.
If I'm not mistaken, I think that's what @woody25 was alluding to. Interesting debate for sure.
  • 5 1
 @Woody25: Damn you! How dare you respond so thoughtfully and politely?! How am I supposed to maintain my rage boner?
  • 3 0
 @irafd: I've met people.....largely they are self interested a*sholes.
  • 1 0
 @woofer2609: it's a tangled web of politics and economics regarding the auto industry. My point was that capitalism drive innovation more than any other economic system. Can you imagine riding a Trabant bike?
  • 3 4
 @Corinthian: what if i told you that all these stats are skewed by a tiny portion of our population?
  • 3 1
 @watchmen: sure, everybody should have their own best interest at heart. people don't want to die. so if there really was a threat of dying if you go shopping during covid, no lockdowns would have been necessary. self regulating mechanism, free market, thank you for making my argument for me
  • 2 0
 ....."and if you want anything other than minimally regulated capitalism, you are dooming yourself and everyone else to a life of hardship and forced servitude".

gotta complete the sentence Woody!
  • 5 5
 @JakeEPooh: The highest paid employee, member of the board, or CEO, COO, whatever, after taking into account stock options and "Bonuses" should not make more than 10X the lowest paid full time employee, which is pretty much the standard for most public sector workplaces.
  • 3 2
 @woofer2609: and who are you to decide how much somebody should or shouldn't get paid? also, where does the authority come from to tell somebody how much they are allowed to pay someone in their own company?
  • 3 0
 @TwoNGlenn: Capitalism CAN drive innovation, and I completely agree that "competition improves the breed." I'm also aware that the pedantic and smug US auto industry got smacked upside the head in the 60's by the Germans, and the 70's by the Japanese and had to resort to tariffs (Chicken tax) and government bailouts (Chrysler in the early 80's, GM and Chrysler in the 2009 debacle) to remain solvent. And yes, it is a very tangled web of policies and economics, I agree. The way I look at it is that Capitalism is a game between multiple teams, and that Government should make sure that the teams all play by the same rules. When you start lobbying the government, you are effectively bribing the Referee.
  • 5 4
 @woofer2609: what if they demonstrably add more than 10x the value?

I don't know where this arrogance and delusion comes from in people, but holy crap....don't you think the shareholders and board are the people to decide who is worth what? last I checked, slavery is illegal, and thus everyone is employed at will. So what someone is willing to work for, or how much an employer is willing to pay someone, is between those two parties only. not you, not jealous people that lack the skills to make that much money.

just, sit down. be quiet, and let the adults work. your input is childish at best.
  • 5 2
 Shareholders or not, a business needs to make money. Even non-profits have to make money to sustain operations. And make no mistake, they have profits; they just have to disperse all funds and not carry anything forward to the next year on their balance sheet.

But I otherwise agree—just say it like it is. You hired too many people, built way to many bikes and didn’t foresee the side effects of massive government spending and inflation.
  • 4 4
 @captaintyingknots: that is the funniest joke I have heard all year Wink Tell that to the fed who now thinks inflation needs to be curbed by increasing unemployment. As if all the inflation is due to the marginally increased wages. Capitalism is inherently flawed and most people pretend its fair.
  • 1 0
 @watchmen: haha, total BS. Let me follow my wife around all day to make sure she doesn't cheat on me. I'll let you know how well my marriage is going in 2 days.
  • 1 0
 @irafd: they arent lol.
  • 2 1
 you (probably) don't want people to buy specialized bikes, but you also want them to be forced to maintain negative cashflow through forced employment levels. centralized planning doesn't work. market speaks. like their slogan, innovate or die.
  • 1 1
 @kokofosho: 1, 5, 6, 7, 8 - are you sure?

and number 4 is too high, we should lower it
and number 3, no freebies
  • 3 0
 @Tyhoneyman:

‘@speed10: We vote with our dollar.‘

I used to think that, and I still do my best to support ’the good guys’ but truth is: voting against someone who has billions of votes isn’t going to work.

Unpopular opinion: historically speaking violence (and threats of violence) has been the only mechanism of major change. Buying American made crescent wrenches ain’t enough.
  • 5 1
 @gnarlysipes: everyone saw the side effects of government money printing coming from a long way off, including the government. lol

If you were smart, you took full advantage and made tons of money, to offset the future damage, that is now coming home to roost.

when the gov. prints money and spends it, what in actuality they did was levy a tax on anyone that has any amount of money, but they didn't have to put it up for a vote. So, it's taxation without representation....i.e. Theft.
  • 3 0
 @irafd: Ummm... what if you did? Out of genuine curiosity & interest, who is it that makes up the tiny proportion of the population, and yet also manages to have a (presumably very) significant impact on a wide range of societal statistics, from education expenditure to overall life expectancy (in a country of 330 million odd)?
  • 6 0
 @kokofosho: capitalism is fine. crony capitalism is what we currently have. we also have a government that prints money out of thin air and then tells you all the increased costs that are a direct and sole ramification of said money printing, is somehow unforeseen and impossible to deal with.

clown world
  • 3 1
 @woofer2609: so who is the bad guy in your analogy then? the ref or the player?

is a ref/judge/government representitive less bad for taking a bribe than a company is for trying to influence them(while all their competitors are doing the same thing? bit of a prisoners dilemma really)
  • 2 0
 @Corinthian: It was indeed - you put that much better than I did!
  • 8 10
 @Corinthian: you know you cannot compare Norway to the US, right? for literally any reason....its about as pointless as a bowling ball.

US: 360ish(no way to actually gauge, I just assume another 30 or so million illegals on top of the official number) million people from every corner of the planet and hundreds of different cultures

Norway: 5.5 Million highly homogenous and single cultural people.

GTFO with any kind of comparision there.
  • 2 5
 @Corinthian: well, look into demographic makeup of outliers in each category, and you'll see it for yourself. not that i wouldn't tell you, but if i did, you wouldn't believe me. if you look it up yourself, hopefully it will open your eyes to some facts
  • 1 0
 @woofer2609: agreed. That’s not a labor law though.
  • 9 3
 @Mtbdialed: The arrogance and what you call delusion in people comes from them looking at their environment and realising that because they were not born wealthy, chances are they will stay that way. The American dream cannot be realised but by the few, and on the backs of many. It's fine, you are entitled to your opinion. I personally am not interested in a society with a huge wealth gap. I am not jealous of anyone's salary, and do not feel I am compensated unfairly. I think society as a whole operates more cohesively when there is an actual middle class. The shareholders and board of directors will decide to ship as many jobs offshore if it makes them more money personally, but that results in short term gain, not sustainability.
  • 4 0
 @greenblur: bike-ism: a cooperative economic system where we all work towards the common goal of riding bikes
  • 3 11
flag Mtbdialed (Jan 12, 2023 at 11:00) (Below Threshold)
 @woofer2609: the general distribution of wealth in the US is better than any country on the planet.

name another country with better upward mobility...

lastly, not everyone, nor even a lot, of people can be "wealthy" in any society. that just isn't how it works. let's say having 10,000,000 dollars was the threshold of "wealthy". what happens when we give 50% of the population 10 million dollars? I am not even going to answer this for you, as I think you will see the folly in your thinking...
  • 5 1
 @Mtbdialed: I'd argue that the ref (government) is the "bad" guy. He sold out. The company is doing what it set out to do: make more money. I don't hate a wolf for doing wolf behaviour, but I can't get behind a sellout. That's why I think we have very distorted views of both "Capitalism" and "Democracy".
Any politician should be required to wear a jacket that has patches of the corporations/donors that funded his/her campaign, with the $ amount below the corporate/donor logo. Logo size would be dependent on $ amount contributed. Heck, even NASCAR doesn't hide who sponsors the driver, and is more transparent than elected officials.
  • 2 0
 @Woody25: they were provided 60 days severance that is pretty generous...
  • 3 0
 @woofer2609: well then, we agree on that! lol
  • 6 0
 @Mtbdialed: Well, studies would show that there are about 26 other countries with better upward mobility, the USA coming in right after Lithuania.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index
This of course is not based on wealth, but other factors, as wealth does not equate to happiness.
If you want to focus on wealth as the be all end all, The US is LAST, in regards to wealth distribution of the G7 countries.
www.newstatesman.com/chart-of-the-day/2022/09/uk-second-most-unequal-g7-country
  • 2 2
 @woofer2609: and how do you explain the fact that more people immigrate from canada to the US than the other way around? that's more of an indicator of quality of life than wealth distribution of G7 members.

immigrants tend to be better off than native born americans, as long as they're legal, of course
  • 5 0
 @Mtbdialed: Interested in hearing more about your points:

"the general distribution of wealth in the US is better than any country on the planet."
Not quite following this one (been a long day). Do you mean that the total national GDP is more evenly distributed amongst the populous, or that money flows from richer to poorer better in the US, or something else entirely?

"name another country with better upward mobility..."
Doesn't upward mobility potentially suggest a starting point of high inequality, and if so, is that necessarily a good thing? A flatter income distribution, where everyone was 'middle class' would have lower social mobility but also less people in poverty?

"lastly, not everyone, nor even a lot, of people can be "wealthy" in any society."
You could perhaps argue it's not about how many people are wealthy, but rather less people being poor? The median income for the US is say $70k. If everyone earnt that, had good schools to send their kids too and some time to spend helping their kids learn etc. then those kids grow into a more work force. That improves productivity, GDP rises and everyone gets a bit richer?
  • 5 0
 @woofer2609: The difference is that sports sponsorship is about advertising, while political sponsorship is essentially corruption. I'm sure you could find a parliament that would happily vote for your idea, but probably not in this solar system.

@Mtbdialed: "The general distribution of wealth in the US is better than any country on the planet." It's not even in the top 100 in terms of income equality. I'm not sure if you're aware, but there are metrics and stats on this. The upward mobility trope was created to make every sucker in the US think they can and will make it big one day, thus keeping them docile in the face of corporate exploitation. And it's one hell of a drug, as you've proved.

"lastly, not everyone, nor even a lot, of people can be "wealthy" in any society. that just isn't how it works. let's say having 10,000,000 dollars was the threshold of "wealthy". what happens when we give 50% of the population 10 million dollars? I am not even going to answer this for you, as I think you will see the folly in your thinking..." These are just words fired up into the air like confetti. You should probably pick up that mic you dropped and come up with something tangible based on methodical research, such as that conducted on the topic of universal basic income (which you probably believe amounts to heresy). It wouldn't take $10m per capita to solve a lot of issues.
  • 1 0
 @irafd: Canada is cold as f*ck.
  • 2 1
 @irafd: Not really true. As a % of immigrants, as well as an actual number, far fewer immigrants to the States are Canadian, and the number of Americans seeking Permanent Resident status (PR) to Canada has increased dramatically.
  • 2 2
 @woofer2609: "happiness" is literally impossible to measure, as well as easily manipulated to fit any preconceived hypothesis the author had before the study. when most people talk about "upward mobility" they exclusively mean, economic. not "social" what ever that means. see, what you did is slide the goal posts and thought I wouldn't notice.


your final link there is a good one to highlight how numbers and stats can be made to come to whatever conclusion one would like. The first mistake that article makes is erroneously focusing the defintion of "equality". I didn't mention "equality" but "distribution". Different things. all those countries had "equality" which equates to everyone being close to as poor as everyone else. The US has wealth distribution.....meaning, there is more money(By a f*cking lot) spread across a much larger segment of the population.
  • 3 1
 @Woody25: there has to be poor people for there to be rich people. just has to be that way, otherwise the rich aren't rich anymore. it's a completely relative term.

there also has to be rich people to incent the not rich people to try and be rich, lest you have absolutely zero economic activity and then everyone has nothing(wouldn't be poor, because relatively, everyone is the same....starving to death).

there is no absolute ideal, you can have your opinions, but it's just that. My opinion is you let water seek it's own level, with zero outside influence(governemnt picking winners and losers).
  • 3 1
 @woofer2609: of course you're wrong:
last two years we have data for - 2020 (11,297) and 2021 (12,053) canadians immigrated into the US (table 2, www.dhs.gov/immigration-statistics/yearbook/2021)

i couldn't find official number for americans immigrating canada, but news stories quote about 10k a year - which is still less than americans emigrating to canada. taking into account about 10x larger population of the US, and simple conclusion is - a canadian is about 10x more likely to immigrate the US than the other way around
  • 5 1
 @irafd: How do you explain the fact that thousands of migrant workers head to Qatar, while virtually no Qataris head the other way?

"Immigrants tend to be better off than native born americans" Really?

There are A LOT of statements being created out of thin air here. The bedrock of populism.
  • 1 0
 @Mtbdialed: Totally agree that there is physically more money in the US. Of course happiness is a nebulous measure, but it's extremely Amerocentric to think that upward mobility is solely economic. It's the American "Dream" that someday you WILL be rich, whereas the rest of the world realizes that not everyone can be rich, as capitalism is a pyramid scheme; there have to be be a great majority of people with less than you in order for you to be rich. What do I care if I'm the wealthiest guy around, but I have to have security cameras everywhere, and live in constant fear of getting ripped off or murdered? That sounds like Jamaica or South Africa. Most of the world would be far happier knowing they can walk around their neighbourhood at night in safety, and if they are unfortunate enough to get a terminal illness, they don't need to worry about financially ruinous medical bills. Don't get me wrong, I don't have any problem with money; I love it, but more of it won't make me happier.
I won't add anymore.
  • 2 1
 @watchmen: The west coast of Canada where I live is a temperate climate, we have sunny mid twenties days in the summer and it gets just cold enough to have snow on the local mountains in the winter.

Come and visit!
  • 5 1
 @Mtbdialed: So rich people are providing a service to the poor by reminding them that they could have more stuff. And if they did'nt everybody would starve.OOOOOOOooooooookaaaaaayyyyyy (backs away slowly maintaining indirect eye contact).
Here's an ideal-people who work full time get paid enough that they can feed and house their families and don't become bankrupt for minor medical emergencies.
Good job the government did'nt bail out the banking sector......or ford........or boeing.......or Pharma. Zero outside influence, they stand on their own.
  • 1 0
 @kingbike2: Sounds like here only less sheeps.But I'm afraid of Geese and alergic to Maple.........Shoresy freaking rules tho'..........eh.
  • 1 1
 @BenPea: highly skilled professionals going after better paying jobs, that's an easy one. qatar is a rich country, and they don't have to emigrate anywhere - US, france or canada. what's your point?

and what is the income inequality like in qatar? since you're bringing up qatar and complaining about income inequality in the US...

and yes, really. the poorest people in the US are native born
  • 1 0
 @watchmen:t true, our local Canada geese own the roads and the green spaces, just don't make eye contact and they will leave you alone.
  • 4 0
 @woofer2609: the American dream was never that everyone will get super rich. It was the idea that you could go from the very bottom and create a meaningful life for yourself. Owning a house, supporting a family, etc. But the idea was never that it comes automatically just by being in the US. It comes with a ton of hard work and a degree of luck.
  • 4 1
 @watchmen: why are people so concerned about our healthcare? sure, it isn't perfect, nothing is, and it seems expensive because we have a lot of out-of-pocket expenses, but it's more honest than being hidden in taxes.

and where do people from the entire world come to get treatment when they can't get that treatment in their own country?
  • 1 0
 @kingbike2: Sounds like our sheeps!
  • 2 5
 @irafd: 'why are people so concerned about our healthcare?' Because people are dying from easily treatable conditions by the price gouging of inexpensive drugs by a multi trillion dollar healthcare sector.
From what I've read....Germany.
  • 1 3
 @irafd: "why are people so concerned about our healthcare?" Because a medical issue that your child was born with shouldn't ruin you financially if you can't afford medical insurance.
And yes, we are having issues with healthcare in Canada, with those who can afford it going to other countries for attention, because private industry lobbied governments hard, who in turn cut spending in the early 2000's on healthcare so that the public would start to think that private healthcare is a viable solution.
Follow. The. Money.
  • 5 2
 @watchmen: haha, sure. my brother lives in germany, and his wife had an ear infection over the weekend - she had to wait till monday in pain to get any treatment - so much for german healthcare.

urgent care clinics are unheard of there.

germany, sure - you're grossly misinformed. more medical patents in the US alone than the rest of the world combined - and everybody benefits from that
  • 5 3
 @woofer2609: you're very naive if you think that govt run healthcare is cheaper or more efficient than private one

private is the way to go, 10 times out of 10
  • 7 1
 @woofer2609: capitalism is by no means a pyramid scheme. what is a pyramid scheme is any economic model that solely relies on population growth for it's economic growth. China, India, etc. all pyramid schemes. The West also relies on pop. growth, but not solely. We innovate, modernize and increase productivity through automation and refinement. all those things grow the economy via increased output per human hour of labor.

all of the worlds wealth comes SOLELY via human labor. it is the one true currency. if you can deliver more value from your labor than your neighbor, you are wealthier than they are.
  • 8 1
 Holy crap I don't check pb for a few hours to try and get some actual work done and there are more comments than I can read.

I'm not going to @ everyone to replied to me, but I'll try to make a general reply here:

Yes, $$ does not equal happiness. But we are talking economics here, and certain economic styles generate better economic outcomes. The best way to maximize happiness across time, from the data thats available, is to be religious, get married, have lots of children, and spend more time outdoors. This of course doesn't apply to everyone, there is no single metric that will apply to everyone, but thats why we should strive for a freer society so people can pursue their own paths towards happiness.

It is a myth that Nordic countries are the "happiest countries on earth". They are very far north and have huge problems with seasonal depression, alcoholism, and suicide. Also, until recently, had little immigration, a homogenous society, and have a collective population of 25 million- half that of Canada. Its very hard to measure happiness, but Brazilians seem to be the happiest people on earth, despite Brazil having so many socio-economic problems they can't all be listed.

These "percentage of GDP spent on X" measurements are meaningless, because people make choices that are different. In the USA, people put a high priority on teeth, and spend much more on orthodontics than Europeans. You could say that Europeans are filthily losers who don't care about their teeth, or you could say they aren't so vain and as long as its not a medical problem they'd rather have good wine and more vacations.

Someone said Americans take on average "1 week of vacation a year". This is absolutely incorrect. The average time taken is 20 days for Americans. Whether this is paid PTO or not doesn't matter. The more PTO you have, the lower your wage is. Nothing is free, and Americans have higher wages.

Americans do elect to take fewer vacation days that Europeans, so what? Americans prefer a higher income, and by choice make that trade. Why is that bad? This is mostly independent of the economic system.

All the comparisons on what Americans spend on things isn't a final metric of consumption. Thats why Total Household Consumption, while not perfect, is the best metric. It accounts for purchases and benefits received. Americans end up getting more stuff than Nordics do when all things are accounted for.

On the subject of healthcare, the most non-capitalistic sectors of the US economy are 1. Financial Services (wall street) 2. Healthcare 3. Education . These are also the most unequal, lowest performing, and most socialist parts of our economy.
  • 3 0
 FINALLY, whether or not the Nordic countries are MORE or LESS regulated than the USA is hard to measure. The USA is a polity of States with vastly different levels of regulation. That being said, a group of economists have tried to measure each and every country on their level of regulation, and compiled this list based on

"Rule of Law (property rights, freedom from corruption); Limited Government (fiscal freedom, government spending); Regulatory Efficiency (business freedom, labor freedom, monetary freedom); Open Markets (trade freedom, investment freedom, financial freedom)"

www.statista.com/statistics/256965/worldwide-index-of-economic-freedom

Guess what: They rank the Nordic countries as less regulated than the USA.
  • 1 0
 @speed10: The only mechanism of major change? Really? Google the industrial revolution and prepare to have your mind blown.
  • 1 0
 @JakeEPooh: Fair point! Do you think another advancement like that might be occur? Obviously if we can progress without suffering, that’s the best option.
  • 2 0
 @JakeEPooh: I didnt' say ANYTHING like what you are implying I said. Nothing about my post advocated regulations or government interference.

It was really straight forward.
  • 1 0
 @PHX77: Sorry to hear that! I’ve been laid off three times in my career and I’ve always bounced back with a better job. The last two caused a move out of state but if you have a wider net then offers stack up.
  • 2 0
 @irafd: sounds like you are grossly misinformed about german healthcare.
  • 2 0
 adjust to the market or die. business 101.
  • 2 0
 @hamncheez: pardon my indelicacy at this juncture in pointing out that - throughout the 20th Century - both the US and Norway reduced their 'poorest of the poor but better than average' populations by preventing their birth via sterilisation.
  • 1 2
 @hamncheez: @hamncheez: rofl [citation needed]

healthcare, infant mortality, moms dying in labor, leisure time, time in nature, police killings, prison complex, half of most budgets either go to police or military etc etc
  • 4 0
 @toflowbi: i have way more experience, first and second hand, with european healthcare than you think, so please let's not go into that.

think we can all agree that everybody should be treated as an individual, and not one size fits all. american system (in general, not talking about healthcare here) favors high achievers, european model favors mediocrity. and that's fine, just please don't push it on us
  • 3 0
 @watchmen: please find where I defended or championed bailouts. lmao

and the service rich people provide is job creation. I wouldn't say I am rich, but I am doing alright....my labor and risk taking with my money, directly feeds around 2 dozen people via the jobs I provide. so you know, the alternative if no one took their capital and created jobs, would be death via starvation I guess?
  • 1 0
 @blowmyfuse: Oops, my bad. You're totally right, you didn't say anything about regulations. I must have gotten all worked up with anticommunist zeal and started replying to the wrong people. I'm sure everyone will be shocked that some random conservative-leaning libertarian type made an ass of himself on the internet. Sigh... don't worry. I hate myself as much as anybody.
  • 3 2
 @irafd: Jesus Christ, what a shitshow. Two quick points, because life's too short:
1. Your anecdotal evidence of a tiny section of European healthcare does not prove anything about the multiple different models in place across the continent, some of which are very good, some less so (usually due to underfunding by governments that fetishize the US's survival-of-the-fittest approach).
2. "Favors mediocrity"... Where to start? What does this even mean? We're not that obsessed with money for money's sake and uh... teeth? Europe is not the homogeneous 2D world you think it is.
  • 2 1
 @Mylarrito: I agree with many of your points, yes. The USA has the highest incarceration rate in the world. This is terrible. This is also a result of Socialism. The more rules, laws, edicts, regulations, etc you have the more opportunity you have to throw violators in jail. You cannot have socialism without enforcement.

Yes, the USA spends more on military than pretty much the rest of the world combined. The military is a classic example of why socialism leads to poor economic outcomes. No matter how much money you spend on something, it will never get better or increase in efficiency. No matter how small your government program starts off as, it will ballon until it has a budget in the billions (trillions in our case)>

However Infant mortality is high because in the USA we count babies who die within minutes of birth as being born, while in most European municipalities that is counted as a stillbirth.

Leisure time isn't apples to apples, if you read my previous comment, you'd see that Americans on average choose to work 1-2 more hours per week than Euros and take fewer vacation days because they prefer higher income. Why is someone elses choice a bad thing?
  • 4 0
 @BenPea: dude, i grew up in europe. i could live in any european country if i wanted to, i'm a dual US-EU citizen, and decided from experience that the US is a better place for me to live. again, i'm not making an argument that the US is better than europe in every way, because it's clearly not, but it is better in many ways for someone like me.

i have a bunch of anecdotal evidences such as this one, and they're backed up by stats. compare waiting times for any healthcare service between any european country vs US, and you'll see what i'm talking about.

i also have a lot of experience with american healthcare system, and thank god, it's far from horror stories i've been hearing before coming here. a diagnostic service that my daughter needs is available only in the US and finland, nowhere else.

EVERYONE i know who lives in europe always goes PRIVATE if they can afford it. EVERYONE.

favoring mediocrity means heavily subsidizing laziness/poor people so that they can comfortably live, which in turn incentivizes such behavior. safety net should be there to help you out short term, not to support a lifestyle. when somebody works their ass off, and they net just a bit more than somebody who doesn't work, it makes them not want to work as hard, generally speaking.

and teeth... i never brought up that topic, that was another user here, but it is a fact that americans do have nicer looking teeth than europeans
  • 2 0
 @irafd: regarding going private if you can afford it, is that because the public healthcare is not adequate or is it because private is so much better?
  • 4 0
 @irafd: I AM THE TEETH MAN

it was brought up as an example. Americans choose (actually, government regulation favors corn over all other food, and lied to us with a 30 year propaganda campaign saying butter and meat are unhealthy, but thats another topic) to live very unhealthy lifestyles compared to Western Europeans, and subsequently have to spend more on healthcare. Americans also choose to get medical intervention to treat disease rather than adjusting lifestyle habits. This isn't because of the economic system, its because of the culture. I'll be the first to admit that we have a serious problem with over-consumption of vegetable oils, sugar, ultra refined processed flour, sweet drinks, etc. If we ate more animal fat, olive oils, complex carbohydrates, and less sugar, our healthcare costs would drop dramatically.
  • 3 1
 @hamncheez: "This is also a result of Socialism. The more rules, laws, edicts, regulations, etc you have the more opportunity you have to throw violators in jail. You cannot have socialism without enforcement."

I don't see a correlation there - neither what constitutes a crime or whether that crime is treated through punishment, rehabilitation or both are fundamental tenants of a particular economic philosophy?

Wouldn't a history of ghettoisation and an approach of incarcerating people for drug offences, rather than targeting the causes of drug use (which often relate to poverty / inequality) be a larger factor in the US?
  • 2 0
 @kingbike2: it's because public is not as good, and wait times are much, much longer. in some cases, waiting for too long can be a matter of life and death, or being in pain more than it's bearable.

public is good enough for treating a cold, or broken bones, simple stuff, and that's good enough for most people as they won't need other services. when you need an actual specialist is when things start falling apart.

i know people in france and italy (wife's family) who hate their public healthcare. sure, it's possible that they would hate american healthcare even more, but the point is nothing is perfect, and in more than one way american healthcare is measurably better than western european healthcare systems
  • 3 0
 @hamncheez: i know more than one person who paid $50k+ for their hollywood smile. those that cheap out pay about $15-20k. people judge you here a lot by your teeth, so good luck finding a job in sales, etc, if you don't have a perfect smile.
  • 2 0
 @Woody25: Regulation 100% requires enforcement. How do you have a law governing human behavior and expect people to comply when you aren't willing to enforce it? If you say I have to pay X dollars an hour, but I can't afford to, so I go down to Home Depot and pick up illegal aliens who are willing to work for less and pay them under the table, I am breaking your law. Do you expect people to follow a law against their economic interest without the threat of incarceration? Both the employer and the illegal day laborer choose to break the law because it is in their own economic interest. This happens millions of times a day in the USA, which despite preconceived notions, has tens of thousands of regulations regarding hiring and employment.
  • 2 0
 @irafd: "public is good enough for treating a cold, or broken bones, simple stuff" not even that haha. In Canada if you've got something that is even pretty mild and you're older than 50 they just refer you to MAID.

Government - assisted suicide is now the 5th leading cause of death for our friends to the north.
  • 3 0
 @hamncheez: that would make sense, socialism has always been good at killing people - one way or another.

it's funny, actually it's sad, but their stats are gonna look great - look at all these people we've successfully treated
  • 3 0
 @irafd: Canada's health key indicators are going to jump up.

In the 80s a bunch of socialist countries had their doctors pressure expectant mothers to just have abortions at the slightest sign of even a small health issue with the unborn baby, and what do you know "socialized health care" produced healthier babies with a lower infant mortality rate!
  • 2 1
 @irafd: what country did you live in? In France, the vast majority have supplementary insurance, which is either covered by the employer or very cheap to purchase compared to US health insurance. There is no private option, we are just covered by the mutual insurer for anything not covered by the state (different levels of cover are available). The French are generally pretty happy with their healthcare system and make full use of it, let me tell you. I'm shocked to hear that every French person you are acquainted with hates it. The UK is a different matter, but I alluded to the reasons for that (the PM likely being a shill for US health insurers doesn't help).
  • 1 0
 @hamncheez: nothing commies would do can surprise me anymore
  • 4 0
 @BenPea: wish i could tell you, but it's a very small EU country and i think someone might recognize me on here, sorry

the same system was in place there too, and i don't know anyone who didn't have supplemental coverage. pretty much it was a must have to get anything done.

i know one family that lives in france (besançon), and they claim that they pay a lot for for their medications and that 'free' coverage is nowhere near enough for their needs (we're talking about an middle aged couple here, diabetics, one is retired on disability). i believe you when you say that people try to make full use of 'free' healthcare - more than if they had to pay directly out of their pockets, which leads to a lot of resources being wasted. not just in healthcare, it's the same way with every other govt run program. everybody is more generouse with somebody else's money.

my dad used to be die hard socialist, but even he admits that there is no reason to go public if you can avoid it. he's a small business owner, so he pays a lot more for coverage than my mom, who is a nurse.

i guess what i want to say is that i'm glad that you're happy with your healthcare. hope it stays that way. our healthcare - knock on wood - has been way better than expected so far, and unfortunately we're using it A LOT.

somehow all these debates end up in which country is better, but it's rarely apples to apples comparison, and it mostly comes down to personal preference.
  • 3 0
 @hamncheez: Over the Christmas break, I was incredibly impressed with the services offered an 80YO family member, as they descend into dementia and poor health. This continued after a multi day hospital visit with a social safety net upon his return home that I was surprised was so robust (to the point family member said he had too many people coming into his house, he requested we "Dial it back a bit".)
MAID was never brought up apart from the family member inquiring about it.
Now, family doctors, elective surgery, and emergency room visits are another story; In the past 20 years, all these things have deteriorated, especially in BC. there are waits of 3-6 months for knee and hip surgeries. Wait times in Emerge are 3 hours+ unless you're bleeding out, and even then they may be too long. There is a concerted effort to change this, but as to what the cause is, I really don't know. Is it a case of some very business friendly government cutbacks to social programs in the early 2000's after being lobbied by private health care so that the public starts to demand a private system? Was it the college of physicians not admitting enough doctors? was it the lure of a higher paycheque to the south? I don't know. I hope we do find out and ameliorate the situation. Anyway, really good viewpoints here, and I sure would like to live in the US to get some first hand experience. Hope everyone has a good weekend and gets out for a ride!
  • 1 0
 Specialized has been notoriously blunt in these situations. The last layoffs they literally just came out said they were shaking things up.
  • 2 0
 @yupstate: that’s why the expression is “workers of the WORLD, unite”
  • 1 1
 @irafd: But what you said is just not true. You don‘t have to wait until Monday if you are in severe pain on Saturday. For sure you should not go straight to a hospital. These shouldn’t be blocked by not immediately threatening sicknesses. For this there are other options in Germany. In everey area there a monthly/weekly changing doctor‘s practices on an „on call“ duty during nights and weekends. The same for pharmacies.
  • 1 0
 100% nuff said
  • 1 0
 @BenPea: everything is somehow the US's fault, or someone's idolisation of the US system, innit?
  • 1 2
 @Mtbdialed: Not everything, just a lot of the decline the UK is experiencing now, for instance (food standards, workers rights, healthcare, infrastructure, social darwinism...).
  • 2 0
 @BenPea: Normally, I would peg your age at about 20. Any older and you would probably know better than to actually admit out loud that you think the world's ills are mostly Uncle Sam's fault. Generally, people learn to incorporate unfiltered information into their worldview as they mature, thus causing them to abandon their knee-jerk hatred of the most benign superpower in the history of humanity. I mean, the modern age of global trade, which has been directly responsible for taking something like 2.8 billion people out of desperate poverty in the past 75 years, exists 100% due to the freely given might of the U.S. military making it possible. However, you're from France, so rather than outgrowing your ignorance upon becoming an adult, you might well be the country's top finance minister. ;-)

Nah, I kid. I bet if we met in person we'd get along great and I wouldn't be an obnoxious jerk.
  • 4 0
 @JakeEPooh: lol. I love America, but it's ok to criticize the parts of it it that are f*cking insane. I do it to both France and the UK, because nothing's perfect. The US can handle a bit of disparagement. It doesn't GAF. And yes, I do not act my age. 20 suits me fine. That was a great year.
  • 1 0
 @JakeEPooh: btw, do you really think the world's problems are caused by young people?
  • 2 0
 @BenPea: Nope, I don't think they cause the problems. I think young people lack the experience to help them make sense of reality. That's why they are so dogmatic about politics. Twentysomethings can be great for soundbites, stirring language, and zealous commitment to a cause, but they lack intellectual substance and actual knowledge.
  • 1 1
 @JakeEPooh: I think you just get ground down by those who try to convince you, in the interests of whoever, that the possible is impossible.
  • 2 1
 @JakeEPooh: Almost ready to let this thread die but "the most benign superpower in the history of humanity."? Really?
No offense, but,
A: You don't become a superpower by being benign
B: How do you explain the second Gulf War? There was absolutely no reason to invade Iraq the 2nd time, and between 100,000 and 600,000 civilians died and the country now lies in factions.
C: "the modern age of global trade...exists 100% due to the freely given might of the US Military" There were definitely Faustian bargains involved in every single conflict.
  • 1 0
 @Mtbdialed: Not everyone saw from afar the effects of unchecked spending. I think you overestimate the average IQ in this country. lol Otherwise, spot on.
  • 1 0
 @BenPea: oh....so only the problems. cool. LMAO
  • 2 1
 @BenPea: generally and historically, yes. young people love to fight, disagree, etc. it's in their nature. fighting actually makes us all stronger, so, as much as the woke world hates it, we need fights and struggle. it keeps the breed pure.
  • 2 3
 @Mtbdialed: Is that a quote from the Nuremburg rallies? Sounds an awful lot like it...
I'd say the world could use a lot less fighting and struggling about now. I'm tired of seeing young people sent to maim and kill other people to settle the disputes of bigoted old men.
  • 2 2
 @woofer2609: I did not expect reference to the Nuremburg rallies to come out of this conversation.

Humans are apes, no matter what anyone wants you to believe and our basic tendencies towards aggression will not be tamed until we start dealing with everyone's favourite hormone, testosterone. Some human cultures have found moments of relative peace, but rarely more than about 80 years which is generationally a cycle. We're around that point now, where the last generation to experience war (in the west) is fading and we're in the grips of decadence, based on years without true struggle and therefore little reference as to just how bad things should be and how amazing we have it now. So we fight over triviality, which inevitably leads to societal instability as our ego responds to sustained torment. You can see this with identity politics and its effect on western liberal nations. We've lost any sense of real objective truth between groups (what's a woman, forced vax ethics, climate is a crisis?). Amicable separation, or strong rule imposed on those who dissent from the powerful, seem like the only two realistic outcomes. I doubt there will be unity until there's a obvious unavoidable catastrophe to unite against.

-Happy Friday!
  • 3 0
 @woofer2609: Your comment is exactly what mtbdialed was talking about. You're so coddled, protected, and indoctrinated that anything that makes you uncomfortable must be bad. And not just "bad", but Nazi bad.
  • 1 0
 @hamncheez: Likewise, I did not expect somebody to trumpet out that "We need fights and struggle, it keeps the breed pure." I'm getting soft in mid life; after decades of having to be right, I'd rather now work with people as an initial approach.
  • 1 1
 @hamncheez: I'm not sure where you're coming from. MAID is one of the biggest assertions of personal freedom for those who choose it. Who the heck is against free will over one's own body?
  • 1 0
 @woofer2609: There are dozens of cases where MAID is being pushed on people with minor or manageable health issues. MAID was repeatedly pushed on a guy who struggled with..... unemployment! Another Canadian, a military vet in a wheelchair, asked that a ramp be installed at her home and the reply was a MAID brochure.
  • 1 0
 @woofer2609: I think access to MAID has become an issue when it's being offered to mental health patients, disabled people and veterans. My grandmother took advantage of this last year, in her 90s and it was the perfect scenario, but I feel like access has become a bit liberalized. I'm all for people to do with their body what they wish, but, offering the service when not requested is a whole other ball of wax.
  • 1 0
 @jesse-effing-edwards: Now the 5th leading cause of death in Canada.
  • 3 0
 @jesse-effing-edwards: oh jesus. Testosterone is the problem? you know human life wouldn't exist without it, right?

here's a fun fact for you: Women have more testosterone in their system then they have estrogen! go ahead, look it up...
  • 97 18
 Adjusting to pre Covid levels I’m sure, back to normal after the fake inflation
  • 29 29
 So, tell me what was fake about the crazy shopping prices, as well as materials and factory capacity ?
  • 76 27
 @Arierep: Its called corporate greed and laws where corporations are legally obligated to f*ck over customers in order to increase shareholder value and executive bonuses.
  • 45 1
 @Arierep: I think the point is that manufacturers massively upscaled due to the surge in demand during lockdown, which anyone could see was going to be short lived.
  • 30 0
 @lacuna: Not just the bike industry - a local business to ours has a warehouse rammed full of garden furniture they paid top money to transport into the country which they are now trying to shift at hugely discounted prices.

If you were sensible over the past 2 years all will be good, you made some extra profit and dolled out the overtime / paid your existing staff a bit more, maybe turned business away so not to exceed realistic capacity.

If you went all out and expanded thinking this would last forever, then you are probably a little bit shagged unless you have some big cash reserves - the smaller guys will feel it the most of course.
  • 13 0
 @lacuna: Indeed, that's the main reason, according to several interviews I read lastly from bike manufacturers and retailers. They are crushed by their overstocks due to over-evaluated orders that were supposed to respond to the post-pandemic demand. Lots of shops have sucked all their treasury, didn't sell as much as they expected... and don't have enough treasury for the 2023-24 pre-orders. Meanwhile, bike manufacturers are over-producing and can't get rid of all their stocks.
Euphoria was short...
  • 23 0
 Don't go adjusting those prices back to pre covid levels though eh. That would be mental.
  • 4 2
 @scott-townes: maybe, but better understanding how prices function in an economy is recommended to also gain understand of the flip side of the same coil.
  • 3 0
 @justanotherusername: @justanotherusername: I work at a dealer for outdoor power equipment. One of the companies we deal with has done almost a 30% price increase since 2022, and still cannot get us product half the time. This industry as a whole is in some seriously hot water. Prices keep climbing while availability keeps getting worse. I doubt we'll see a Kohler engine before 2024
  • 10 1
 @scott-townes: I think the lens to view this through is that they've likely got massive cash flow issues. Presumably all their money is tied up in inventory because the bike boom has cooled off - so they they'll have landed stock like it was going to be a 800 mil $ year when it turned out to be only a 500 mil year (or whatever number, I have no idea what their revenue is). Now they're paying to store all that excess inventory and got 2023 orders to pay for as well. Suddenly they got no cash, so paying salaries and ambassadors and race teams is pretty painful and cutbacks seem necessary
  • 1 0
 @Bobadeebob: There are some good prices around atm. If you google Specialized Rockhopper you'll find them 20% off almost everywhere - including Specialized UK's website
  • 7 1
 @grnmachine02: Prices are simply following massive increase in money supply since 2020. www.tradingview.com/symbols/FRED-M2SL
  • 3 0
 @grnmachine02: Maybe they are one of the few that decided not to massively increase capacity and instead are deciding to make you guys wait, especially if demand remains.

Better to be in that position than have a warehouse full of engines they have already paid for that nobody wants to buy.
  • 4 0
 @tom666: Thats exactly the price-range of bikes I have been told are now sitting in huge numbers in inventory - Perfect purchases for people getting into biking over Covid, not so much now as the 'cost of living' bites.

I imagine the £12k ebikes will still sell out though like always.
  • 1 0
 @tom666: hence the insane inventory sales!
  • 4 11
flag captainderp FL (Jan 12, 2023 at 6:12) (Below Threshold)
 @scott-townes: specialized is a private company. there are no shareholders since it is not publicly traded.
  • 3 1
 Anyone forecasting based of 2020 demand was asking for trouble, add to that the hilarious pricing, which have huge margins in as shown by the big discounts. Greed has fuelled this, rather than take a conservative approach.
  • 6 0
 @captainderp: not true at all, any company can have investors and shareholders, they just aren’t publicly traded.

Specialized could have hundreds of shareholders or investors, or none.
  • 6 3
 @captainderp: Private companies have shares/shareholders also, buddy. Regardless, it doesn't negate the fact that if inflation is happening, most bigger companies will take advantage and will raise their prices higher than they need to be and will claim its not their fault. Why turn down the opportunity to make extra cash along with everyone else? Capitalism, babyyyyy
  • 2 3
 @justanotherusername: forever doesn't exist on a balance sheet. They only plan three months at a time. The bigger the number at the bottom of this sheet, the better. Who gives a rat's ass about next quarter? We might never make it there!
  • 8 0
 @jaame: Ummm, we are talking about real business here, not somebody selling seats at andrew tates university.

I agree that large brands often care little about people / needing to move staff on when things contract but they absolutely do care about their numbers for longer than a quarter, unless they are trying to fail of course.

Lots of larger brands will have priced this in - anyone that things Specialized didn't forecast a post covid contraction are mental.
  • 1 0
 @justanotherusername: The problem though is that without engines, we can't get equipment. No, I may not sell 500 engines in a year, but I'll for sure sell that many zero turns to commercial customers.

edit:// but I do understand what you're saying.
  • 9 0
 @grnmachine02: I’m work in the manufacturing field. Automation and fluid power. We have the exact same issue. Pumps and motors are like 10 months out, we used to get them in 10 days. Even with that manufacturers are allocating what they send us every month because they can’t make enough pumps and motors to satisfy the current market, Was only a matter of time before the bottle neck caught up to companies.

Used to think this was temporary but now not so sure. This might be the new supply chain moving forward which will just force companies to automate to make up for the lack of labor. Will be interesting to see what happens over the next 10 years.
  • 7 0
 @Bm1117: You have probably landed on one of the biggest issues in manufacturing right now - labour, or the lack of it.
  • 10 0
 @justanotherusername: yep, no one likes to talk about that. I’m working with like 5 different companies who are making machines that automates the donut making process. All with funding. That’s a lot of companies making donut machines…

So if there is that much money being dumped into donuts, think where else companies are spending billions to get rid of human capital.

Few other points

-There are like a 1/3 less of generation x versus millennials. Labor gap is only gonna get worse,
-China has developed and is no longer cheapest to manufacture things so supply chains need to move to other countries,
-corporations take their tax breaks and do stock buybacks investing in technology. The 2018 beak specialized got basically covered all their Covid bullshit. Not to mention the PPP loan they probably got from the government.

Only way to make things better is to buy less shit and keep it longer. The only way companies make any meaningful changes is if people stop buying their product.
  • 4 0
 @Bm1117: It really gets ugly when a warranty repair is involved. Telling a customer that yes, his repair on a $10k machine is covered, but I can't get the part for 9 months really sucks. Especially when this machine being down is the difference between them making or losing money. I know it's not just this industry, but still.
  • 2 0
 @Bm1117: The generational challenge is going to be huge - Its a looming problem for China too as they put the 1 child policy in place and have not concentrated on skilled labour.

With automation and AI we will all be able to sit in our pants and jut eat the donuts on universal basic income ;-)
  • 6 0
 @grnmachine02: yep, I sell lots of gearboxes and motors for berry pickers and mower attachments. Majority of our revenue is all from small business. We can’t get them the parts they need to either complete harvest, or ship tractors out to their customers.

Large companies like Boeing , Genie , Amazon etc.. have the money and clout to basically buy all available inventory in the market and screw all the small business guys.

And it’s ot just the industry but it makes a difference on what is being paid for goods. Farmers waiting 10 months for a motor and then having three price increases while they were waiting for the motor helps no one but the corporation. That is why We have to pay so much for vegetables right now. It’s way more expensive to farm or operate equipment than it was three years ago.

Good luck man, sounds like we both need it Smile
  • 3 0
 @justanotherusername: that’s why I started selling automation bro! I’ll be making repairs to my robot overlords in about 20 years while being driven around in 600k Chevy volt while eating a $35 donut Smile
  • 1 0
 @justanotherusername: but robots....they tell me i can do a 3 day week if i employ robots
  • 1 0
 @justanotherusername: career options these days its all tits and flaps on only fans or monetizing instagram or you tube , luckily the upside is when the world comes to a screeching f*cking halt im going to be surrounded by beautiful people, the ones who shunned work in favour of going to the Gym and videoing their workout, the ones who have permanantly surprised but youthfull complexions due to the amount of filler they had injected .....f*ck working on the coal face thats old school
  • 1 0
 @Compositepro: I am too old and out of shape for Instagram now and haven't made enough money to attract one of these youthful young ladies either.
  • 1 0
 @scott-townes: if you're over 30 and gainfully employed I'll donate $50 to the leftist charity of your choice.
  • 1 0
 Many companies shut down factories during covid and used it as an excuse to not reopen to prop up prices and share prices. Oil companies slowed production or "Shut down refineries for maintenance" to keep prices elevated because of many political elections.
  • 1 0
 @mexicant: Explain to me how closing a factory is a good thing to prop up share prices?

Oil is a commodity, a little different to a factory making toasters.
  • 5 0
 @Bm1117:

“Only way to make things better is to buy less shit and keep it longer. The only way companies make any meaningful changes is if people stop buying their product.”

Quoted for truth. And just to add- I want to keep things longer and have them be serviceable. It’s the inevitable fact that there are a finite amount of resources available and recycling is a lossy process. Make things to last and make them serviceable. Honestly it’s a world my parents (in their 70’s) lived in. Things were designed to last and to be repaired. Now they are made to have a life span approximately slightly greater than the warranty period or the next product cycle and are unserviceable or parts are unavailable.
  • 5 0
 @scott-townes: do you honestly think that all the price increases for every single thing is nothing but someone twirling their moustache from behind a huge mahogany table???
  • 2 0
 @Mtbdialed: lots of people think the bike industry is run by a shady cabal on a secret island somewhere, it’s quite cute.

Everything is ‘the matrix’ or something.
  • 2 0
 @Mtbdialed: So maybe not all, but I'm sure some of it has been solely "because we can"

I mean, why wouldn't they? Obviously people are willing to pay, why not get that money?
  • 5 1
 @scott-townes: Right. Definitely not anything to do with the heavy hand of government locking people in their homes and telling them they can only leave to carry on essential business *or* exercise, and then giving them thousands and thousands of free dollars to spend like there's no tomorrow during a supply chain crisis, creating an inorganic demand tsunami in certain specific industries the likes of which the world never seen before forcing businesses to scale up or get left behind, or simply fail to serve their customers, leading to inevitable layoffs that anyone with a scant gram of common sense saw coming two years ago. But yeah, it was definitely corporate greed.
  • 3 0
 @abbottt1: Probably the best summary of what has actually happened right there.
  • 6 1
 @grnmachine02: that's exactly right. businesses exist to maximize profit. if the government handed out a bunch of unearned money to people, you raise the cost until the demand comes down to the amount you can produce.

very simply, supply and demand.

so at the end of the day, the cause of the price increases lies squarely at the feet of the government for inflating the currency.
  • 72 3
 At least the overpriced vacuum CEO took a pay cut to save a few of the lower paid worker’s jobs… oh wait, that didn’t happen.
  • 15 22
flag Bro-LanDog (Jan 12, 2023 at 6:52) (Below Threshold)
 He'd likely have to dissolve his entire salary to pay 120+ people poverty wages. Do you people not do any sort of math with this stuff or do you just go with rich peepo bad
  • 18 22
flag yupstate (Jan 12, 2023 at 7:28) (Below Threshold)
 @Bro-LanDog: Orange guy bad, rich people bad and greedy, poor people good and stepped on.
  • 7 2
 Good point. I wonder what sort of "bonus" the CEO pulled in over covid. Not that the CEO had anything to do with the record profits. Instead of paying out those massive bonuses - companies should save those monies to avoid layoffs of the people that really generated it in the leaner times.
  • 7 1
 @Bro-LanDog: So he could cut his salary in half, still be making too much, and pay 40 workers a good living wage? Seems pretty reasonable to me...
  • 6 7
 @bonkmasterflex: what's 'too much' to run one of the biggest bike brands on the planet? Have you ever ran a business? Do you know how much money it costs to have 40 employees on payroll?

Feels don't run a business. And being a sulking wagie pointing fingers at CEO's will never make you richer.
  • 9 1
 @trillot: Spoken like someone who has no idea how corporate finance works. In many large companies you could fire the CEO and their next closest 5 VPs and put all that money right into the employees paychecks. Being optimistic that might give everyone a one-time payment of a few hundred bucks. THEN the company falls apart and they all lose their jobs because believe it or not..they got hired to be VPs and CEOs for a reason.
  • 3 4
 @bonkmasterflex: The math doesn't work. I'm sure if they could cut one salary or fire 1-2 management folks to save 8% they would. In a large company you could fire a VP making 1 mil a year and all the bleeding hearts are happy...or you could fire 100 employees making 100k a year. I encourage you to get your calculator out.
  • 2 1
 @Bro-LanDog: i have an argument on the feels - while it's true they should be out of pragmatism's way, they DO NEED to be taken care of - demoralize your workers, they won't work. this is exactly what's happening with the west, the elite cancer sucked the corpse dry
  • 4 0
 @baca262: a business that provides a career for people decades into the future that downsizes during economic recession will provide more for the working class than a business that doesn't understand how to stay afloat by overpaying employees and not trimming fat when they need to. Good business pivots rapidly.
  • 3 2
 @yupstate: people have no idea what it takes to make payroll. Dissolve the gReEdY CEO and everyone gets their phone bill paid! Yay!
  • 4 3
 @Bro-LanDog: It's just the politics of jealousy. It can be a useful tool for politicians to get elected also. Convince someone they are downtrodden and electing you is the big fix!
  • 44 1
 I feel bad for the people that lost their jobs (however I'm sure many were only employed a short time) but I do find fault with all of these CEOs and CFOs that make 7 figures that couldn't foresee what was coming and instead of just saying "we can only make as many bikes as we can make" decided greed was the best option and rode the wave of an unsustainable boom that was eventually going to crash on shore.

Companies like Specialized will ride it out but the smaller companies that did this and, worse yet, borrowed and leveraged to meet demand are completely screwed.

Hindsight is always 2020. But there's no excuse when the car companies (who are large enough and connected enough to be in on the plan) were showing the bike companies all along what to do.
  • 23 1
 I have about 60 Linkedin connections working at spesh, one posted:
"My position was eliminated at Specialized Bicycle Components and with it, my employment",
he had been with the company more than 4.5 years.
Didn't see posts of others, yet.

On BRAIN, these two Specialized related news articles are directly below each other on the home:

www.bicycleretailer.com/industry-news/2023/01/11/specialized-buys-former-pearl-izumi-building#.Y7_t-HbMIQ8

Great timing, same day communication of massive lay offs & purchasing a 55,000 square-foot building for 15million
  • 9 0
 @one38: gotta save $15m to spend $15m
  • 18 4
 Imagine being another bike company preparing to lay off 8% of their workforce.
CEO: Jones? You have something to say?
Jones: Uh, yes sir, we can't lay off 8% of our workforce. That would be crue-
CEO: You're right, Jones. We can't. After all, The Big S just did and that would open us up to a lawsuit for intellectual theft! 9% it is!
Jones: But, sir, I mean-
CEO: You're a genius, Jones!
  • 11 0
 Specialized in particular has been protecting themselves against this by buying up bike shops all around the US. A lot of bike shops in the US that were once locally owned are now owned by Specialized, there are at least 3 in my area that are now Specialized owned shops, whether branded that way or not. Call it what you will ethically, it's a smart business decision, even if I hate it. Trek is doing the same thing.

My feeling is that this is less "we overhired" and more "we brought on too many employees via acquisition and now need to let some go".

As for bad decision making, you aren't wrong though, smaller brands in particular seemed to think this whole thing was going to continue and started expanding/growing/hiring expecting that. Dumb business decision and it'll probably cost them in the long run esp with their brands being pushed out by Trek and Specialized buying shops.
  • 2 0
 @shinook: From what I understand most manufacturers did not ramp up production on their own dime. They knew this would be temporary. Bike shops were left with no bikes to sell so the big brands required that the bike shops pay for inventory up front. THe LBS ended up holding the bag in the end. Not sure how this affected Specialized because they bought all the bike shops.
  • 3 0
 @mexicant: I work for one of the big 3. LBS were definitely not paying up front. Pretty much the exact opposite. They were hedging bets by placing tons of backorders to see which ones would get fulfilled. Any orders that took too long were cancelled and left us holding the bag because we'd ordered from factories to supply the 'demand'.
  • 47 2
 Best of luck to those affected in finding a new job.
  • 8 2
 I have no idea why you were downvoted for that!
  • 21 1
 @korev: probably because mba kids can't tolerate that there's a human side to business
  • 14 0
 @pisgahgnar: I have a glib statement I use as often as I can "MBAs ruin everything." Thus far I've yet to see an MBA do anything other than make the situation overall worse.
  • 1 0
 @pisgahgnar: I have not, but I will. Thanks for the recommendation!
  • 6 0
 Fortunately (I guess), Specialized does have a decent job finding program for exiting employees. They fire enough people regularly they sorta had to, their nickname back when I was on the west coast was "The Meat Grinder" cuz they'd churn through so many people.
  • 2 0
 @gaberoc: preach, all my MBA did for me was 3x my student loan debt
  • 46 7
 But what will this mean for ambassadors and influencers I've never heard of?
  • 2 21
flag Rich75043 (Jan 12, 2023 at 3:41) (Below Threshold)
 There was an article a little while back about how spesh cancelled all the ambassadors contracts without notice.
  • 25 1
 @Rich75043: wooosh?
  • 8 0
 Don't worry, they'll still get to talk about how Specialized makes the best bikes in the world even though they have never ridden anything else in the last 15 years.
  • 30 2
 Downsizing is a bummer for those let go but I can understand that it has to happen now and then. But I can't tolerate the spin: "I want to recognize those teammates who departed"? Way to make it sound like it was their choice.
  • 31 6
 How are the employees supported when they are fired? And why is there a bright future for cycling and specialized? I mean if the future is bright, why fire people?
Strange Message. If yout business is struggeling just say it but dont try to sell it as everything is fine
  • 21 48
flag nordicMT (Jan 12, 2023 at 3:43) (Below Threshold)
 Having the smarts and courage to cut underperforming employees is a sign of a well-run business. Its like a sports team. Performance. Don't suck and you probably won't ever get fired from even a poorly run business. Be a dick and be the first to lose your job when a company is no longer held hostage by your poor performance, workmanship, work ethic, ability to work with others, etc...
  • 6 5
 Its leadership 101 to, after delivering a tough message, give the prospects of a positive future ahead.
  • 15 1
 @sold: It's corporate double speak to obfuscate the fact the have no idea what they are doing.
  • 9 0
 The BRAIN article stated that the employees being let go will receive 60 days salary/benefits in lieu of a 60 day notice.

www.bicycleretailer.com/industry-news/2023/01/11/specialized-announces-8-staff-reduction#.Y7_5G6RlBzA
  • 2 0
 @JarrodB: I dont know the laws in the US in detail but german laws are very employee friendly. So is the mentioned salary Common in the US when people are fire or is it a "good" Deal for the employee?
  • 7 0
 @nordicMT: or it is a sign of dad management when you have a false vision of the future. Corona led to a massive increase in demand of bikes. When you think this demand will last, it was a wrong assumption of the Management
  • 9 0
 @FloriLori: the 60 days pay is a law in California. Most other states in the US do not have that law and will fire your ass on the spot if they don't need/want you.
  • 4 0
 @FloriLori: I'm not the one to ask about that, I've never worked for a company of that size, only smaller mom n pop style bicycle shops. That being said I've never been offered two months salary after being laid off or let go due to seasonal work. Sounds nice to me, would help in winter months, but not having a job to go back to once the season starts again would kinda suck...
  • 2 1
 @greenblur: Yah, it's called unemployment insurance and works in every state.
  • 1 1
 @FloriLori: Other countries are more employer friendly. Socialism was much more employee friendly than Germany, each to their own...
  • 16 4
 Man that’s some eloquent marketing vomit from the Dyson man himself. 120 measly salaries are slashed to absorb what may well be 1 new bike’s R&D costs without digging into profits. Hope it’s wildly Innovative lol…whatever it is. Shit is getting out of hand and greed is out of control. Been a Spec fan for close to 2 decades but all of this outside the industry influence is quickly and noticeably making it hard to support the industry as a whole. Think what you want about Sinyard but everyone has to retire at some point so I don’t blame him but how is a vacuum pusher the right fit for a bike company? First Real bike was an ‘08 Hardrock Sport followed by an ‘08 SX trail that was years ahead of its time. Lawsuits and such aside, they really were far ahead of the game while still supporting films from The Collective and then later Anthill Films. Seems a stretch for 120 jobs to be a deal breaker at this point. I’ll stop rambling now but f*ck this is frustrating when it’s only one small step of many in the wrong direction
  • 4 1
 120 salaries in the US alone. on top of salaries there are benefits and other expenses that employee doesn't see (payroll tax, etc). others could see pay cuts or pay raise freeze, etc.

8% of workforce is very significant
  • 4 2
 I just came here to say that the 2008 SX trail was incredible. Still my favourite bike. I put coil totems on it and it was unstoppable. They really messed up the SX platform after that.
  • 11 0
 "Pedal the Planet Forward"? I understand they got extra workforce to take advantage of the sudden opportunity to sell more new stuff, yet were too greedy to invest the sudden and huge inflow of money in their long term employment so they're dumping them now they no longer need them. I just don't quite get how this is helping the "Planet Forward". @Specialized: Could you clarify? Super curious. Never realized it was Specialized pedaling the earth for the past billions of years.
  • 11 1
 www.pinkbike.com/news/specialized-executive-vice-president-it-will-take-more-than-a-year-for-cycling-inventory-to-recover.html

"We need all you manufacturers to invest in increasing your capacity so we can keep riding this boom"
-Some dude at Spec (2021)
  • 15 1
 "Nah, the boom will bust pretty soon, aye."
-Some dudes in Taiwan (2021)
  • 5 0
 This was the article I was thinking about when I was reading the current post. It’s almost like the only smart people were the overseas companies. The same thing has happened in the tech industry, as seen by mass layoffs there too.

It hurts my head thinking about how many “leaders” had their head in the sand and couldn’t see that the pandemic was altering buying habits, which couldn’t last forever.
  • 9 0
 @dpars63: Bonuses. They knew what was coming but DGAF. Their bonuses are tied to growth (and often in stocks). The plan is what they are taught to do....maximize short term gains....take the money and then GTFO whilst everything burns to the ground. Next job- 'well profits went up x% under my leadership and when I left they collapsed because I am Jesus- give me my effing money.
  • 2 0
 I remember a number of times in the weekly company-wide rah-rah sessions Specialized had in mid-late 2020 where Sinyard essentially said the COVID pandemic was a good thing because it would wake Americans up to the bicucle and that that the boom was the new normal and demand would never revert to normal. Anyone who was thinking to actually temper expectations and build
  • 10 1
 Easy talking for most of us, reality is lots of families and persons are seriously affected. From what I've seen quite some people who've been fired had also already started way before Covid boom was a thing, and mostly were passionate cyclists. Hope all land on their feet somewhere else.
  • 12 0
 Personally been through 4 corporate downsizings. My heart goes out to those people that lost their jobs.
  • 11 2
 This decision is taught/learned at business school. Business people are taught that the real opportunity to make a BIG mistake is in not downsizing fast enough when things start to go bad. Very few businesses act fast enough when, in hindsight, the writing was always on the wall.
They act slowly because (take your pick):
• They are optimists in general and expectthings to get better.
• They feel a moral responsibility to their staff and keep paying them, although they can’t afford ALL of them.
• They don’t actually look at their numbers or they don’t look often enough..
• Pride,ego,or stupidity gets in the way.
• It’s easier to do nothing than act.
  • 9 3
 I always go back to 2013 when Specialized threatened a tiny LBS owned by a veteran in Cochrane Alberta over the name Roubaix. The communication to the owner of the LBS was "arrogant and dismissive".....Specialized doesn't give a F$%k about the 8%......
  • 6 0
 Ahem...

focustaiwan.tw/business/202212140015?fbclid=IwAR0gtQ_rn4oDKPSq9nVNKRzXwYxwp4edqeXqJIuP7i2c3TGJH6t4aRqQjtI

If Giant is asking for a payment extension from suppliers you know there's a lot more downsizing to come.
  • 12 3
 And so the demise of the industry begins.....
  • 31 0
 It fell off a cliff september/october. There will be a period of massive oversupply and reduced demand leading to huge discounts as suppliers/retailers frantically dump stock. This will burn through any cash reserves as basically no one will be making any money on sales for a while. There will more layoffs as the outside investment funds who jumped on-board at the height of the boom start to crap themselves and need to slash overheads to preserve their ROI. Shop closures (I was one of them) will rise as suppliers squeeze terms and dump stock to online/direct leaving nothing for LBS's to make money off.
It's gonna be rough for the trade for a good couple of years. Hopefully this will put the brakes on the consolidation and corporatization of the industry (Trek and Spesh seem in a race to to McDonaldsfy retail) and knowledgeable and passionate independant shops can carve out a niche supplying and servicing enthusiasts again.
  • 24 1
 After a decade of price gouging the industry could use a good kick in the balls.
  • 6 0
 @watchmen: I think anyone over-exposed to the lower end of the market will be hit hard.

What I mean by that is the £1000 bike sale and associated accessories etc - the kind of stuff that sold to people who were bored during Covid and wanted to take up biking.

Been told by someone in one of the more fashionable bike brands that sales are still good but they hear stock levels for the lower end stuff is now absolutely huge and as you say the only way forward is to cut prices and try and shift the stock.

Personally I am think it will only be rough if you reacted to the covid boom with fast expansion and didn't predict the ultimate slowdown - shops / manufacturers that took things slowly and worked overtime or were happy to turn some business away will ultimately be absolutely fine as they return to pre-covid business levels.
  • 13 0
 @justanotherusername: We saw what was coming, made hay while the sun shone and did'nt over extend. We always expected a return to pre-boom levels and never got too deep in debt with the suppliers. Our biggest supplier demanded a 150% increase in the pre seaon order (with no definate delivery date and NO cancellations). Despite being with them for 6 years we were told it was that or nothing. We had loyal customers asking for price matching other stores ,who were selling at cost. The workshop was busy (for winter) but with no bikes selling and no margin on components there simply wasn't any money to keep the lights on (the corporate owned store in the next town was 60% down on the last quater).
I'd be less bitter and able to chalk it it up to experience if I thought we made bad choices but sometimes you do everything right and still lose.
  • 3 0
 @watchmen: Sorry to hear that man, sounds like circumstances largely beyond your control - I have heard about the increase in pre-order QTY at terrible terms.

I dont think the worst of it has hit yet either, with so much inventory to shift shops left with product they paid full price on are going to find it tough selling until it runs out.
  • 1 0
 @Fix-the-Spade: I agree. I just sucks that the balls that were kicked were low-level workers while "the industry" chugs right along
  • 3 1
 @Fix-the-Spade: If you think the ‘industry’ will get a kick in the balls you are mad - as usual it will be the small guys and shops that get shafted as they are left with inventory they can’t sell as the manufacturer / supplier sells at near cost.
  • 1 0
 @VtVolk: Sadly whenever an industry contracts the people at the bottom get hit first, shits flows downstream after all. But when enough people stop buying prices will come down, which benefits us the customers.
  • 4 0
 @Fix-the-Spade: I am not sure how you can think prices are going to go down by any real amount in the cycle industry.

Price increases are a combination of inflation of everything, everywhere (Shipping, raw materials, staff, rates etc etc) and the desire to increase profit when demand is very high.

Sale prices are not long term price reductions, they are a method of shifting inventory or getting through low demand periods - I can almost guarantee we wont be seeing brands lowering their RRP by any great amount moving forward, especially as most of their costs have not reduced.
  • 1 1
 @Fix-the-Spade: when you say price gouging what do you mean? If you work at the manufacturing end of the spectrum then you know prices are going up and up and up , this has a knock on effect up the supply chain Electricity has gone up 200% in under a year , every little thing from getting raw material in to shipping the finished thing has gone up massively, not defending price gouging but as a lot of us found out 5 years ago survival depends on getting into high value low qty stuff for defence or medical or even having to go back to motorsport , making exepensive toys is not viable nor stable and at the bottom end its a slaughterhouse if you try and compete
  • 1 0
 @watchmen: did you sign with that big supplier? Where are you now? Either way, I had a hunch this was the right approach, and it's interesting to hear the details of your experience. Keep your head up, you did it right and your discipline will be invaluable!
  • 2 0
 @Compositepro: Did moving to Afghanistan lower some of the costs for you? ;-)
  • 3 0
 @justanotherusername: nah man I figured becoming an opium farmer was more profitable with the CIA handouts than working for rishis lot lol
  • 1 0
 @Compositepro: In 10 years bikes and gear from many brands have more than doubled or even tripled in price. Inflation for that period is just over 25%. Even allowing for increased materials, shipping etc, the main reason prices have gone up is because every year they're raised people kept buying. Now people are stopping, which means an adjustment to the market is coming.
  • 2 1
 @Fix-the-Spade: bullshit.

Bikes are products, not a market people trade in.

bikes performance vs price is better than ever, you don’t need to buy the £15k model you know, the £2.5k model is a fantastic bike.

You can’t compare a model now to a model 10 years ago, the same as with cars.

Now I’m not saying the ‘industry’ isn’t motivated to make a profit, that’s what business do even though it seems to be a dirty word if bikes are involved but suggesting we will see a ‘market correction’ like you are talking about the cost of natural gas is dog turds.
  • 9 0
 Every big company is lowering fixed costs to prepare for a recession.
  • 5 8
 Nope. Rich peepo bad!
  • 11 0
 Funny part is: if you lay enough people (nationwide) you can create the recession you prophesied(? prophecized? profit-ized?)
  • 5 0
 To an extent that's probably true. I think most of it is the same as most other US companies in the bike industry...the leadership put their chips on buying a ton of inventory to sustain a lasting bike boom (generally, in my experience, against the wishes of most groups in the company). Year-plus lead times from Taiwan and China meant that they had to then further extend their inventory purchases. The market deflated as COVID lockdowns waned, and the companies that turned all that profit into more inventory buys (and executive bonuses) are cash poor with a ton of unsellable inventory. The people at the top of these companies profited greatly, the day-to-day workers made a few percentage extra in bonuses but not enough to match inflation.

-Someone who's watching it across a couple companies from the inside
  • 2 0
 @WhoTookIt: good points... I've seen this before too... They will keep upping the orders until they can't move the product.. But, the pandemic threw in a curve... Way longer than normal lead times..

However, I wonder how many smaller companies benefitted from this.. They sold everything they had, but they weren't high enough on the ladder to get an excessive amount of inventory or they were conservative in buying because they have never been able to buy much...
  • 2 0
 @lumpy873: From what I've seen, the size of the company hasn't mattered so much because both a small business and a large business can overcommit to purchase orders. The largest variation I've seen is due to manufacturing location...the companies with the most control over product manufacturing (via owning manufacturing centers/full in-house manufacturing) and the least shipping (minimizing oceanic whip) were able to manage their inventory and POs much better than those that had to stake their claim in line for hubs that wouldn't be delivered for another 2 years.
  • 2 0
 @WhoTookIt: I agree... I think it should be clear after all of this that putting a bulk of the manufacturing into one place probably isn't a good idea. It shuts down and it affects everyone. But, many companies will take that risk as long as the profits are there..
  • 10 5
 @nordicMT: Downvoted all over creation, but some truth here. It's commonly understood that, in large companies, about 10% of the workforce is typically not pulling their weight, and often the dead opposite of that.

That said, man oh man, Specialized could write a new version of "How to Win Friends and Influence People".

Not.
  • 4 2
 I up voted this. I’m sure I’ll get downvoted too. Mostly by people who never worked at a company larger than 1000 people.

There is also a misconception that jobs have to last forever. A lot of jobs that have been eliminated would have been contract positions 10 years ago, but laws now require companies to hire more full time employees. This wouldn’t have made the news if the big S simply didn’t renew contracts with staffing companies.
  • 5 0
 As someone who's currently at work wasting time on pb, I resent that statement! tehe
  • 1 2
 Yes! Cut the dead weight. Get rid of the wheel suckers. I don’t want to find slackers when I purchase and Enduro. I firmly believe that hard working people don’t get slashed.
  • 5 0
 Give'em a break, guys. Specialized just purchased the old Pear Izumi building for $15m. I mean, they can't have employees who actually work AND expand. That would be like, sound business and stuff.
  • 4 0
 In the corporate world, they sometimes call this "rightsizing" in order to divert your attention from the fact that the folks at the top F'd up their planning - resulting in the folks below them losing their jobs while they get more money for making "strategic" decisions....
  • 7 0
 Gotta find those performance bonuses somewhere for the boys at the top.
  • 4 1
 This sounds like yet another reason to support companies you believe in. Specialized has proven over and over again that they don't care about their athletes or their employees. There are lots of other great bikes on the market!
  • 7 2
 I don't like this bullsh!t bla bla bla companies write when they lay off employees...
  • 6 0
 Cleaning up the books and getting the assets in place for an IPO.
  • 4 0
 With Merida's 49% ownership stake, that could be plausible.
  • 2 0
 Does this sort of news really affect the brand's PR? Or do they know it will be old news in a week or two?

Would you avoid this brand because of the treatment of the laid off employees?

I'm all for voting with my feet but I do wonder if this sorta thing is enough to make me avoid buying one of their bikes.
You know, because I'm a shallow hypocrite who rails against capitalism but loves buying new shit.
  • 2 0
 I'm pretty sure California law states any layoffs of a certain % must be communicated to the public.

Also, any public traded company in the US needs to inform shareholders. Usually the press releases are short, dry and buried under a bunch of other news.

I once worked for a privately held company, in Texas, and they laid off tons of folks all the time without any announcements to the public.
  • 8 5
 "We are transforming the company around our purpose to Pedal the Planet Forward"

.....god comments like this one make me want to hurl. Taken directly from the BS "Standard Corporate Nifty Woke Sayings" book.....blah
  • 12 3
 How the hell did you work "woke" into your comment? That's more impressive mental contortion than the original comment! You should work in PR/marketing.
  • 1 1
 @pmhobson: yeah its like exactly the opposite
  • 2 0
 @pmhobson: Because the statement is lame just like the "woke" movement..... It's a fad for companies to say things like this for self-affirmation that they are contributing to society and "paving the way forward for future generations."


I would excel in PR/Marketing, but that is also lame.
  • 1 2
 @raleightheodoresakers: ok dude. Touch grass. Or take more red pills. Whichever is closer
  • 1 0
 @pmhobson: someone obviously missed the red pill reference Neo....

go take a nap my man. peace.
  • 5 0
 Had to find financial room.to buy Pearl Izumi's 14 million dollar building...
  • 2 0
 I remember I had an interview for a position there… at that time I had about 8 years of experience in the retail bike sales world. Literally, what does Specialized mean and after that came all the penny talk. Not really any questions about bikes or people, just sales charts and how to fire people. I don’t believe Specialized cares about biking more than biking to yoga twice a week. Just the profits. Specialized is just a corp. Buy from smaller companies.
  • 2 0
 Covid boom over-almost no company fully capitalized on the increased demand. Now after scaling up late (again) the layoffs begin. It won't just be big companies. A lot of shops are likely to close as well. Happened in the 1970's, 1990's. This sort of reactive, short-term shareholder value thinking is one of the fundamental problems of our whole global economic system.
  • 2 0
 Remember, there was no gradual ramp up in sales... It went from 0 to 100 almost overnight... None of the manufacturers of any of the components are ready for that.. And then, it went from 100 to 0 just as fast.. Some people just want to believe that when it's good, it's not going to end... When lead times were at 12, 18, 24 months out, they should have been reconsidering the size of the orders...
  • 1 0
 @lumpy873: Sure, the growth was abrupt. But when covid hit, companies slashed their parts orders which was shortsighted. Then they (again) thought the gravy train wouldn't end and focused too much of their resources on top-end bikes with tech that won't trickle down.
  • 2 0
 @wyorider: Remember, they were navigating uncharted waters... They had no idea if they could stay open, or if shops could stay open. So, yes, cutting orders seemed like a good idea at the time.

Working at a shop, I had no idea how long we would be open. Luckily, we were able to stay open the whole time. The companies got creative with staffing and stayed open at a minimum capacity. But, even under normal circumstances, the industry doesn't have the manufacturing capacity to keep up with a shift in demand like we saw. If someone had the foresight about 18 months earlier, new factories could have been built and brought online.

What I saw was as lower priced bikes sold out, the price of entry kept going up... Eventually, all that was left was the high end bikes...

I bet anyone that suggested that with a 12 month plus lead time to get bikes that interest would drop off, they would have been laughed out of the room..
  • 2 0
 Well, we went from not being able to get products fast enough and ordering like sales were never going to end to an abundance of products and a severe drop in sales... Alot of companies were hiring as many people as possible during the boom and now they have to drop them in the bust...
  • 2 0
 Possibly a bigger issue for the Bike Companies and the impending slowdown / glut is the used bike and frame market.
Pinkbike Classifieds as of now has XC,Trail, Enduro, Downhill, Dirtjump Complete bikes = 28,394. Frame only in these categories is 2649. E-bikes is 2084. Grand Total of 31,502.
Yes, all of these are not necessarily bikes competing with brand new designs, but overall they do pull away from the new bike purchases and even building up a bike becomes waaaaay cheaper than buying new. I have a 2019 Yeti Sb 130. Yes the new Sb 140 is sweet, but do some shopping and you'll find at a 50% price of a new bike minus sucky CA sales tax, then you're looking at 60% off. This is going to get interesting!!!
  • 2 0
 This is clearly a supply chain issue.
(I don't actually know what I'm talking about, but I just blame everything on the supply chain now; forgot to take the garbage out? "Supply chain issue, honey!"
Forgot your anniversary? "Supply chain issue"
Late for work? "Supply chain issue")
  • 2 0
 Speaking of someone working in the industry, I do think that if we (under we I mean everyone, shops, everyday people, riders, investors) would not have handled this bike industry growth as a bike boom but more likely a seasonal grow, it would not have been this radical either. I know tons of people around me who had never been a mtb rider before the last 2 years, but after covid they bought a bike, and now they are riders. They ride almost everyday, they buy new equipment, apparel, new parts. Don’t tell me the boom is over, cause at least 50% of the new joiners have stabily become so called “riders”. These people will stay with cycling, they eventuslly buy new bikes in the future, new clothes, they pay money on bike trips and will use cycling infrastructure wether it is a bike park or a bike lane around the suburban lake. It was a rapid growth, not a boom or a bubble. Bubble is when after it pops, everything goes down to the previous level or even below. I would not believe there is or there will be less riders out there as it was before covid. It was a rapid growth, and now the growth slowed down, but business goes on, cycling has future.
  • 4 2
 Being laid off is very painful, but, this isn't due to anything sinister or corrupt - at least not by Specialized (perhaps by the public health industrial complex along with world leaders). The last several years of bad Covid policy created a wild bubble in the bike industry which, of course, burst. This is just the tip of the iceberg too. The after effects of bad Covid policies will be with use for many years and there's likely to be a lot more pain.

That said, Specialized trying to spin this as some sort of reimagining vaguely related to the environment or planet is just insulting - particularly to those most affected. I mean, a lot of people got triggered by Musk's approach to Twitter layoffs, but I think he has the right approach. Better to just be upfront about it. You're being laid off b/c we've run the numbers, and we have to cut your job.
  • 2 0
 … just another move that makes this company even more un-buyable… they used to make really good bikes, but they’ve become way too expensive, too proud, too corporate… I hope they'll hit rock bottom really soon and hard and realize they need to do more for the customer and less for the stock market…
  • 1 0
 Specialized needed to mop up their ambassador program. A large portion of the paid "athletes" on the Global program were not doing much with what they were given. One of them even said it in an interview. They got all the goods, a paycheck, and weren't asked for much after that. Meanwhile the folks out there competing and winning couldn't even get bikes through the program. Mainly because their rider reps NEVER responded to emails. You would put in for a bike and then they would sell out before you got a response. If ya got one at all!
  • 6 1
 Bike Industry is in a bubble
  • 10 1
 More like that bubble recently popped, post covid supply and demand
  • 5 0
 The entire global industry of absolutely everything was in a bubble, its now burst. Sensible companies that didn't get excited and expand too quickly will still be laughing having made more than expected profits over the 2 years with an easy return to pre-covid trading levels. If you went nuts thinking it would last forever there is some pain to come.
  • 7 1
 covid bubble burst
  • 6 0
 Kraken variant isn’t threatening enough to keep the hype train going, it’s fizzling out.
  • 3 2
 After the layoffs specialized prices will go up even higher. Most people are back to the daily grind and have spent all the covid "free government money". Things are getting back to normal. Way to ride that cash cow specialized.
  • 1 0
 Overstructuring during the bubble pandemic demand They are not alone for bigtech and amazon now is time for reality check Sorry for the job loss but this is just the beginning for all markets... so automotive.. Prices are actually not sustainable for the market, you cannot push without limits.
  • 4 1
 Luxury items are always the first things to go when purse strings get pulled .... Just look in the sales sections. No shock really...thats extra
  • 4 0
 Specialized.....when did they have a Downhill Team last?

I have never had a Specialized (new anyways) and never will
  • 1 0
 I'm at least 25% sure the current DH world champ is on Specialized Gravity.
  • 3 0
 @theextremist04: haha it was a bad joke
  • 5 0
 Hey, Rob Roskopp's new role at the big S ain't gonna pay for itself.
  • 2 0
 this should surely be top comment
  • 4 0
 "specialized top dogs fire eight percent of their workers because they want to make as much money as possible"
  • 4 1
 Pedal the planet forward by firing people?!
What BS! No surprise it was going to SUCK with the new CEO Scott Maguire coming from DYSON.
  • 5 0
 FFS. "Departed" is now a corporate synonym for fired/laid-off?
  • 2 0
 Yep. These types also say "exited" sometimes. Doublespeak.
  • 3 0
 Must say that Spesh E-bike prices have been positively INSANE. I mean, they add $5k to add a motor and a battery for gosh sakes.

Hopefully a slowdown will improve pricing.
  • 1 0
 Seems like they are downsizing because riders are finding similar bikes for a lot less money. Specialized is one of the most expensive brands out and sometimes doesn’t add up for what you get. I don’t see allot of the brand where I live.
  • 1 0
 It seems to me that someone from the Hard hat crew must have called Mr. George to rat on Jose's team porque he wasn't using the right torque spec. Ride/buy what you want/like/meets your budget and let everyone else ride what they want/like/meet their budgets.
  • 2 0
 Funny how quickly companies can forget record profits from a big boom. Never looking at big picture and the future. Always thinking of todays stock price.
  • 1 0
 MADE IN TAIWAN.!!!!!!!

SHOULD BE CHEAPER.......CAN'T GET MUCH CHEAPER THAN LAYING OFF 8% OF THEIR STAFF.!

I WONDER, WHAT IS THE ACTUAL MANUFACTURING COST OF AN S-WORKS ENDURO.???????!!!!!!!
  • 5 1
 Huge bummer for those folks.
  • 1 1
 The economy and business needs goes up & it goes down.

And all successful companies have to over-hire and then let go of the excess that either don't perform or they just don't need. If you don't like it, start your own business and do better.

It's a business, not a charity.

Thankfully the economy is strong, and they should be reemployed shortly if they so desire.
  • 4 1
 Hadn't realized we had so many award winning economists lurking in the Pinkbike comments section.
  • 5 1
 Specialized sucks and so do ebikes
  • 3 0
 Came here to say the same thing
  • 1 1
 Companies invest (in people, tooling, marketing, etc.) to go after more or bigger opportunities. When those investments don't pan out, the company has to re-adjust accordingly. That means getting rid of those investments you can (people, buildings, etc.) and writing off the ones you can't.

It sucks, but having been through 6 layoffs in my relatively short career (both being laid off and having to choose who on my team I have to get rid of), it is the reality of business. Those people never would have had the jobs had the company not decided to roll those dice.
  • 2 2
 Profiting off of employees is the name of the game regardless of the company. Capitalism has no checks and balances. If you want to see the Big S fail, stop buying their products.
  • 3 0
 Captalism or die. Stop buying biks from this copany!!!
  • 3 0
 Won't somebody think of the shareholders!
  • 6 7
 Of a privately held company?
  • 6 0
 @wolftwenty1: private companies can have shareholders.
  • 4 0
 @wolftwenty1: I believe Specialized is 49% owned by a publicly traded company
  • 1 0
 @onespeedbrian: Yep. Merida
  • 1 0
 will bike companies be able to claw back those price increases over the last 2 years or forever be considered overpriced and the order by mail bikes take over.
  • 1 0
 The big players (Trek,Spesh,Giant probably SC) 100% will pivot to direct sales.......they won't reduce prices though.
  • 2 0
 @watchmen: thier current actions in the US say otherwise. Trek and Specy have been buying out local shops and rebranding them or just opening new stores in direct competition with existing dealers.

Specy also testing a showroom/Apple store model in certain markets. Go look at the bikes and if you want one, they'll bring it in for you from a warehouse.
  • 2 0
 @greenblur: So the brand is selling directly to the consumer without an intermediatary? mmmmmmm.
  • 1 0
 "the order by mail bikes take over."

Are the likes of Canyon and YT actually much cheaper these days?
  • 1 0
 @watchmen: you're right in some cases, but it's not exactly 100% online direct like a Canyon/YT. They're chosing to maintain some kind of retail and local support.
  • 4 1
 Lay off sounds nicer then fired.
  • 8 2
 Than sounds nicer than then.
  • 4 1
 @nateb: i wonder how are your polish language skills
  • 2 0
 @tajtigabor: fairly polished.
  • 1 1
 @nateb: If you think "lay off" sounds nicer than "fired", then you're fired.
  • 2 0
 @barp: I wish I could post the face palm emoji.
  • 2 0
 @nateb: No worries, here are some spares Facepalm Facepalm Facepalm
  • 1 0
 I wonder if their sticker prices will soon reflect these recent cutbacks. Or, are these efforts just to protect their margins?
  • 2 0
 But specialized is still polluting and treating employees terrible in Cambodia and that’s okay right????
  • 3 1
 Well you better throw away your cell phone and go forget about an electric car if you are concerned about it.
  • 3 0
 Strange Craigslist sale of unreleased XX1 stuff coming into focus
  • 2 0
 Anyone talking about the $14.9 Million former Pearl Izumi building they purchased in Colorado on Dec. 28th??
  • 1 0
 I'm very sorry to hear about the these layoffs... losing your job sucks. But not sorry enough to not buy a $32 tire yesterday.
  • 1 0
 Specy tire sales are sick, right?
  • 1 0
 I question if this is meant seriously and how are they going to do this: (Quote) We are focused on ensuring that they are fully supported during this difficult time
  • 2 0
 Adjustment? More like the bike-Covid-boom has s£€t the load. Tighten your straps lads we are in for a rough ride...
  • 1 0
 Too much extra inventory...not enough $ to chase it(/\ costs)=major sales/layoffs.
  • 3 0
 All of these comments are amazing!
  • 1 0
 No kidding. Covid didn't exactly bring out the best in people did it.
  • 2 0
 Already not a fan of Specilized and their cringe name. Stop raising prices on bikes. No one is buying your $9000 bikes
  • 3 0
 Pander and pander and pander AND pander some more.
  • 4 0
 Skadooosh (wrong Panda)
  • 2 0
 “I am specialized in firing people and having a computer do their job” should be the new motto.
  • 1 0
 Just lower the prices ! MTB has become an Elitist sport with the bikes being so damn ridiculously expensive , people just can't afford to buy new bikes these days
  • 1 0
 Every year in January and July…
It’s planned but probably got bigger this year with the e-bike sales numbers finally running out of steam …
  • 2 0
 I am sure the CEO "takes full responsibility" however none of the consequences.
  • 1 0
 yeah the good old Specialized times endet with the Berrecloth leaving the brand. Since that moment i saw the raw Satanic Nature of the Brand.
  • 1 0
 I was going to comment, but by the time I scrolled to the bottom I forgot what article I was reading... guess I'll go back to updating my resume.
  • 1 0
 Stop charging freaking 15 grand for a bike... The economy is slow, and they're slowing it even more
  • 1 0
 Dear Mikey, if you hadn't cut off some of your retailers you'd have so much more money right now lolllll
  • 2 1
 Ehh this is every corporation out there right now. Not just cycling. Business is business.
  • 2 0
 Wow whats that shit supposed to mean
  • 1 1
 In some respects it's not a surprise, the competition have caught up, and some, Orbea, are surpassing Specilaized both in price and product innovation.
  • 2 1
 Sales were down last year. That's it. All this other nonsense everyone is spewing is just nonsense
  • 3 1
 Still F the S!!! Buyer Rider owned rider support!!!
  • 1 0
 business 101, Adjust to the market conditions. Less sales = less excess staff.
  • 1 0
 Taking advantage of all those profits from selling the same bikes for $2000 more.
  • 2 0
 Best of luck to those affected.
  • 1 0
 Thank you.
  • 2 0
 Let’s hope they hit the legal department disproportionately.
  • 1 0
 Excited to discover what the rightsized next gen Spez will bring to world to leverage this pedal the planet boffo
  • 1 0
 "Organization Adjustment" due to s#!tty economy caused by idiots in charge of several countries.
  • 1 0
 Yeah another reason to never buy their clevis driven shock destroying douchy bikes
  • 2 1
 Damn, does this mean levo SL's are gonna go on sale? Lol
  • 5 1
 They've been on and off sale for 5-6 months. Picked one up brand new with a MASSIVE discount in October. I think it was 25% off.
  • 1 0
 i know a mate that runs a shop cant give them away at trade + vat
  • 1 0
 Everything's on sale...or will be.
  • 1 0
 Thats why Will Greenfield got laid off haha
  • 1 0
 Is he the guy who makes the kickstands?
  • 1 0
 @barp: he's a small ytber who was sponsored by Specialized
  • 1 0
 it all ends in the end...lol
  • 2 1
 Can't believe they just fired Loic and Finn like that!!!! WTF /!??tr%$^
  • 1 0
 Price destruction already happening. Hold off on any big purchases.
  • 1 0
 Thanks Specialized, for the riders!
  • 1 0
 Slight geo adjustment, lower, slacker, closer to the ground
  • 2 1
 HAHA I thought inflation was transitory? Where you at liberals
  • 1 0
 Chaz Maz is expensive
  • 3 5
 Lol @ everyone blaming the CEO's as if outdoor industry boom and bust wasn't forecasted by anyone with half a brain during draconian covid regulations.
  • 2 0
 I think the biggest issue with distribution and manufacturing is the retailers over purchasing. Now that the demand has fallen off, retailers are refusing orders and distributors are stuck with large numbers of items they wouldn't normally hold in such abundance. It may take a couple years before this balances out. Who's at fault? The ones who forecasted " record demands" and "high numbers" I find it amazingly narrow to believe that a pandemic would change peoples spending behaviors of consumers in the sports industry they should have as well.
  • 1 1
 'Murica the land of the free
  • 1 0
 Free, for only this low low low fee....
  • 4 7
 LESS WORKERS MORE MACHINE WORK ! with AI, less people needed ! thats the future!
  • 1 3
 Levos are dope!
Below threshold threads are hidden







Copyright © 2000 - 2024. Pinkbike.com. All rights reserved.
dv56 0.075317
Mobile Version of Website