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Video: Actual Weights of World Cup DH Bikes with Ed Masters

Jul 9, 2023 at 3:25
by Ed Spratt  

Ed Masters is continuing his incredible World Cup content this year as he hits the pits in Val Di Sole to gather the weights of some of the bikes taking on the third rounds of the 2023 World Cup series. We have added a list of riders, bikes, and weights if you're only here for the numbers.

Pivot Phoenix
Rider: Dane Jewett
[No inserts]
16.54 kg / 36.45 lb

GT Fury
Rider: Ryan Pinkerton
[No inserts]
18.24 kg / 40.20 lb

GT Fury
Rider: Roger Vieira
[No inserts]
18.36 kg / 40.48 lb

Scott Gambler
Rider: Luke Mumford
[Rear XC Cushcore]
16.4 kg / 36.16 lb

Canyon Sender
Canyon Pirelli Team
[No inserts]
17.56 kg / 38.71 lb

Santa Cruz V10
Union Team
[No inserts]
17.49 kg / 38.55 lb

GT Power Performer
Rider: Wyn Masters
22.87 kg / 50.41 lb

Canyon Sender
Rider: Luca Shaw
[No inserts]
17.71 kg / 39.04 lb

Canyon Sender
Rider: Phoebe Gale
[No inserts]
17.40 kg / 38.35 lb

Canyon Sender
Rider: Tahnee Seagrave
[No inserts, Ti bolts]
17.36 kg / 38.26 lb

Scott Gambler
Rider: Dean Lucas
[Rear insert and lead weight]
18.27 kg / 40.27 lb

Scott Gambler
Rider: Marine Cabirou
[Telemetry]
17.2 kg / 37.91 lb

Pivot Phoenix
Rider: Matt Walker
[Front and rear inserts]
17.2 kg / 37.91 lb

Mondraker Summum
[No inserts, lead weight]
17.83 kg / 39.3 lb

Atherton AM.200
Rider: Dom Platt
[No inserts, lead weight]
17.86 kg / 39.36 lb

Commencal Supreme
Rider: Amaury Pierron
[Rear insert]
19.15 kg / 42.22 lb

Saracen Prototype
[Telemetry, no inserts]
19.54 kg / 43 lb

Saracen Prototype
[No inserts]
19 kg / 41.88 lb


Author Info:
edspratt avatar

Member since Mar 16, 2017
3,242 articles

181 Comments
  • 124 1
 Only time I care about bike weight is when I have to pack one in an evoc and go to the airport
  • 41 0
 Why are people not using inserts as much anymore? They use to be popular, what happened?
  • 28 3
 The XC crowd seems to be embracing them, however.
  • 155 0
 Spent all the money on Ochains.
  • 25 0
 Better casing for 29" tires available?
Not sure, never needed them
  • 67 5
 They are not strictly necessary in DH racing. They may (or may not) save your rims, but it's not a word cup racer problem. They let you finish the race with a flat tire, but once you got a flat tire the performance it's already compromised. In a championship where one second means 10 positions or/and the chance to qualify, the only thing that counts is finish the race as fast as you can, not only finish the race.
Modern DH tires are already made with very strong sidewalls and tire inserts don't make much difference but adding more weight to non-suspended masses (which is not good).

I don't know If I would use them for Enduro either. Repairing a tubeless tire with an insert on a trail is much slower than putting a tube in it.

On the other hand, for xc they may be useful as they can let you pedal with a flat tire not losing much time.
  • 19 7
 I've been running them for a couple of reasons. First, if you couple an insert like a CC Pro with a lighter casing, it pedals well at "trail bike speed" but doesn't get too squirmy and foldy at "enduro bike speed" or in the bike park.

Second, the lower pressures, supple off the top from the casing, and damping help my 40-something, desk jockey self find some grip and hold on for an entire run.

Makes a very versatile setup for a 150-170 bike that sees a lot of different types of trails. But neither of those things applies to these guys. And for them, denting a rim is not a big deal as long as it holds air for the rest of the run.

But I'm getting kinda tire of faffing around with CC Pro and removing/installing Maxxis tires in fear of warping a sidewall. New Kryptotal DH casing looking pretty enticing.
  • 28 0
 @dancingwithmyself: I went from Maxxis EXO+ and cushcore, to Kryptotal DH front and rear. This is on my enduro bike, and it saves 250grams even though I’m now running DH casing. I’ve been extremely happy with the performance of the Kryptotals.
  • 59 0
 If I got free new rim and a mechanic laced it up for me whenever I dented my rim - I probably wouldn't run inserts either lol
  • 3 6
 @watchmen: It definitely gives more legitimacy to the Ochains. Now, I am wondering if bikes like the newer Zerode G3 with the rear suspension that is less affected by the drivetrain will be a new thing in dh racing because at this point, they are just looking for tiny fractions in competitive advantages.
  • 4 6
 One thing to remember is an insert like Cushcore offers a certain amount of protection, damping, etc regardless of who's using it. IOW, it doesn't scale up for a bigger faster rider. To a weekend warrior it may make a large difference. However a WC DH racer puts the bike under much higher loads. That insert may be largely negligible in offering cornering support and rim protection to a WC racer.
  • 7 1
 Strictly speaking, an insert isn't even really all that useful for a DH racer. DH-casing tires are plenty reliable nowadays and even in case you get a flat, an insert can't save your race run anyways. So you might aswell just not bother with the additional weight (- which as far as inserts are concerned sits in the worst possible place of the entire bike).
  • 8 6
 @dancingwithmyself: If you run better casing tires, the Cush core does nothing. Better casing tires are lighter and faster than the trail tire/Cush core combo. The better casing tire will also outlive the combo. Cush core is just a fad, it will go the way of the dodo bird.
  • 1 0
 @pisgahgnar: exact same thing for me, no faffing around , and DH casing available in medium compound for rear wheel makes me happy.
  • 6 1
 Other than being a point and shoot clydesdale protecting one's gucci, carbon rims, for people running DH casings it has always been seen as an overpriced, weight adding gimmick.
  • 17 3
 @dualsuspensiondave: disagree. It’s a longevity play which is why it makes little sense for Wc guys. Smashing laps daily you might as well have the added protection for your rims and small benefits of sidewall support. All the claims of better dampening are moot IMO. call them what they are…foam designed to protect the rim. Do you need it? Of course not…but I wanna ride tomorrow not have to build a new wheel when I make a mistake.
  • 5 4
 @tacklingdummy: 2/6 of the elite dh winners this year had Ochains, both on Atherton bikes. I am enjoying watching this wave pass.
  • 3 0
 even fewer on the enduro bikes a few weeks back
  • 1 0
 @pisgahgnar: Appreciate the feedback. As tires wear out, gong to give the DH Kryptotals a go on the enduro bike. Hoping they won't be too long in offering the enduro casing in a softer rubber compound for other bikes. All the reviews and comments are really positive other than that ommission.
  • 3 2
 @IanGilbertoud: Why do you dislike Ochains and Atherton bikes? Both are good. If Ochains work, they work. Atherton bikes look rad, just pricey.
  • 3 4
 @tacklingdummy: it was a statistic, love atherton bikes, Ochains are becoming less and less popular...
  • 6 1
 @IanGilbertoud: Ochains are becoming less popular says who? The pros would not be using them then.
  • 6 0
 Folks stopped drinking the koolaid Wink
  • 5 4
 @tacklingdummy: less popular on winning bikes lol, you didn't spend $500 on a wiggly spider did you? Lol
  • 4 3
 @IanGilbertoud: 2/6 of the elite dh winning bikes with Ochain is a very high margin. Perhaps, if it didn't work, you would not see it on any winning bikes or even on the UCI circuit.

I'm not dh racing for money or a living. However, the pros who ARE racing for money and a living ARE using what you call a "wiggly spider" and winning. That may say a lot that the Ochain is legitimate.
  • 6 7
 @tacklingdummy: guess the whole specialized, trek, and santa cruz teams don't wanna win cause they don't have wiggly spiders lol
  • 1 0
 @KingPooPing: Not me, I'm not adding that weight lol.
  • 4 2
 @IanGilbertoud: Trek session is a high pivot and the Syndicate runs Saint cranks which don’t fit an ochain. The fact that any of the pros are running ochains without being paid by them shows they do work.
  • 3 0
 It changes the feel of any tire. In the front wheel for me is very noticeable. Got both my DH and enduro bikes with one on the rear only. For the rear wheel it is OK if you do not have a mechanic and a truck full of new rims. My Octa Mousse tire insert is quite light,like 100 grams. It works really well.
  • 1 0
 I’ve used but I like the bigger air chamber the tire without insert provides,besides the easy way to change them
  • 7 2
 This thread is as interesting as it is amusing…. But the fraction “2/6” has been used twice and it’s got me twitching lol. C’mon! 1/3 of the time I visit this site these days I‘ll scroll through the articles and find one to muse over and the comments on this one had me rollin . Anyways… no matter how these bikes are setup the weights are pretty crazy I think. At what point does a dh bike become too light?
  • 5 1
 Looks like it's only me and Amaury who ride hard enough to need them now Big Grin
  • 8 0
 I was talking to a suspension tuner that has done testing and data acquisition with WC and EWS pros and swears that the inserts reduce suspension performance and grip (maybe because of more unsprung mass). He also said that when he was a WC mechanic and his riders stopped using inserts they had less rim damage. We Are One also does not recommend inserts that sit in the rim channel (most of them) because the insert loads the rim in ways it's not designed for. Interesting information. I had been running Cushcore in the rear until recently, I have been trying with out again with DD tires and am very happy with how the bike feels without the insert. Not sure if I am really good enough to really feel the difference though, maybe I'm just imagining.
  • 3 1
 @JazyFyzle: I’ve also heard about inserts causing more damage, and this was from a rep from a big tire company. Same happened to me. Less rim damage after removing them. Headache installing + most pros not using them + Maxxis saying their tires are races ready without inserts = why would I use them?
  • 7 5
 @succulentsausage: for most riders inserts are a flex! they think they are saying: "I charge so hard I need inserts and a DH casing"
  • 2 0
 @succulentsausage @JazyFyzle : just out of curiosity, how does the insert cause more damage? Because of installation or the way it compresses the rim, or what?
  • 3 0
 @succulentsausage: Or perhaps is it because people with inserts think they can ride with much lower tire pressures which leads to rim damage?
  • 2 0
 @pwkblue: Or perhaps they ride really rocky terrain and inserts help prevent pinch flats and rim damage?
  • 5 2
 @wolftwenty1: Proper braking, line choice, good DH tires, and better built wheels solve that issue for the most part.
  • 2 0
 @JazyFyzle: Yep if you ride pretty hard with a tire insert you can crack the rim bead by the pure stress it adds and the way the rim is loaded . With a dt 511 it is possible, I have seen it, a rim full of cracks near the spoke area.
I think inserts work well with DD and EXO+ type of casing but not so much with pure DH tires.
I run one insert in the rear of my DH bike with a Michelin DH22 and it makes a crazy hard combo,not good for very technical ridding but pretty safe in bike parks.
  • 5 0
 @bkm303: If you look at the cross section of a reasonably well designed mtb rim, the part the spoke nipples contact is thick material because it carries heavy load transferred through the spoke holes.

The "Hook" area (now hookless) where the tire sidewall seals should also be thick as this will take the brunt of an impact load....frequently this is the part that breaks when dinged.

The part where you put the sealing tape is really only there to provide torsional stability (think twisty the rim between your hands) this torsional stiffness is critical in preventing the wheel from buckling under heavy load but not alot of material is needed to gain stiffness. it's more about the shape than the material.

This portion of the rim should never see any serious point loading or much impact....it doesn't need a lot of thickness to get the job done it stabilizes the rim just by being there. as such in a well executed rim it's usually fairly thin material here unless intentionally designed for an insert.

Some tire inserts have the ability to transfer or spread an impact load directly onto the rim tape portion of the wheel which is most cases is not designed to take any serious vertical load.
  • 2 0
 @dualsuspensiondave: you been in the park this year? Or any year for that matter?! It’s beat to shit…when you’re riding every day you’re gonna make mistakes and break your shit. Pre CC I was going through 2 wheel sets a year, now one will make it a whole season. It’s just insurance to ride another day. Hell I pinged the rear on the lay corner in Aline last night with Cush core and a dh tire. It’s rough out there.
  • 1 0
 @Mikevdv: wonder if that's why Neko's reserve wheel blew up on the last jump at MSA
  • 2 0
 @dualsuspensiondave: agree 100% well maintained wheels too
  • 9 0
 As mere plebeians, I don't think we have any clue whether pros are running inserts inside their tires or not. Tire companies want to be able to market their tires to work without inserts, so I suspect there are pros sponsored by Maxxis, Michelin, Pirelli, etc who have been instructed by their tire sponsors to say "I used to run inserts, but my _____ tires work great without them." I also suspect there are pros who get a paycheck from Cushcore who have green valve stems who don't run the insert. I will also say that I used to get flats and destroy rims all the times, I love inserts, and you can pry my Cushcore Pro inserts out of my cold, dead hands.
  • 2 1
 @pwkblue: I am definitely not a 'hard charger' and running an insert on the back makes a huge difference to the way my bike rides. Lower tire pressure, more grip, more damping, and less rim damage. Worth the weight penalty to me.
  • 2 0
 @wolftwenty1: Used to ride Windrock all the time. Raced DH, etc. and never flatted on Schwalbe DH tires. That was on a downhill bike. Haven’t flatted or destroyed a rim in years. To be fair, wheel maintenance came to a halt once I started running carbon rims many years ago.
  • 2 0
 @wolftwenty1: Last day in my local bike park,La Pinilla near Madrid,a group of riders from Portugal where having flats left and right. It is a tricky bike park,full of sniper rocks waiting for your EXO tire hehehe. A little mistake would eat a tire&rim in split second,even worst if you are in your enduro or Ebike.
Last thing you need in a bike park is a flat tire,in some places is a ruined morning till you swap the tire.
@TEAM-ROBOT I think the only close to pinch flat proof DH tires are Michelin. Crazy hard carcass compared to Maxxis,Schwable,Conti...
  • 2 0
 Don't know but XC racing is using them a lot.
  • 1 0
 @IanGilbertoud: I can't wait to put one on my hardtail!
  • 2 1
 @wolftwenty1: How did we ever get by without them? It’s pretty easy running smaller tires with heavier sidewalls. I hope inserts and 29 go away from everything except xc where they make sense.
  • 2 1
 @emptybe-er: just breaking wheels a lot more which means more money and riding less. If I had a mechanic and unlimited number of rims laying around I would not run inserts either.
  • 30 0
 I would've thought they would express Roger Viera's bike weight as "before" and "after" separation.
  • 4 0
 Or maybe they could've weighed each half separately. That would've been cool.
  • 22 1
 Roughly half of these are in the ballpark of what I’ve been told is a reasonable weight for an Enduro bike.
  • 14 0
 No dinner plate cassette and huge derailleur, no dropper post, dual crown fork. That's about the only differences here
  • 8 0
 @knightmarerider: the cassette and derailleur are no joke. I feel for any of them that have to run the new Sram stuff. Lightest transmission derailleur and cassette combo weighs 0.61 lbs more than x01 11 speed, which they are all more than capable of pedaling around for a race. 0.61lbs of extra unsprung weight…
  • 1 0
 if you watch his video a few weeks he weighed pro enduro bikes. The weights certainly overlap...but were a pound of two lower across the board
  • 1 0
 @taquitos: It wasn’t that long ago where bikes were averaging about 32 pounds or so. New drivetrain accounts for a half pound of that. Where is the other 4 and a half pounds coming from?
  • 3 1
 @TheR: inserts add around a pond. Frames have gotten heavier, which I think is mostly driven by companies wanting to decrease warranty rate. Forks definitely are beefier than they need to be. Everyone was riding around on 36mm stanchions until 38 was the thing, although I did love the totem for park riding and that thing was heavy. And people are riding with tools crammed in every possible spot they can on the bike.
  • 6 1
 I recently took out the 7-speed cassete on my DH bike, and replaced it with a siglespeed cog and a simple tensioner. I was looking more for simplicity and silence, but I am now amazed by how much different the suspension feels. Initial suppleness is WAY better now. Unsprung weight matters, folks
  • 3 1
 Enduro riders also bring a bike computer, food and (shared) drinks, tools and spares... Even if they don't count as bike weight, they still add up making it less worth the effort (and cost) of going silly saving weight everywhere. Plus of course, you do need to finish the race on your wheels so it is also more worthwhile to use inserts.
  • 1 0
 @taquitos: Garbaruk 12s cassete, garbaruk RD cage for m8000 rear derailleur, 12s shifter from shimano is the lighweight way to go.

Yet those things still weight more than my 11/50 9speed all steel cassete, m7000 RD with garbaruk cage and sram 9s shifter.
  • 3 0
 @TheR: frames are probably heavier these days, especially carbon long travel ones. That goes double for the brands that are offering long term warranty periods. A few extra dollars of material will mean less replacements down the road.

Plus many companies played that light as can be game and it resulted in more cracked components, failures, stuff prematurely worn out etc etc. Remember those super light weight Trek Sessions? The older Transition carbon models that cracked?

Another thing adding to the weight are that most bikes are 29" now. So heavier rims, heavier tires, more sealant (maybe) and added insert weight if you use one.
  • 2 2
 @Canadmos: Yeah, they’re definitely making bikes heavier these days. The weight of my Process 153 was listed as a con in the field test four years ago. It tipped the scales at 31.5 pounds. All the bikes in last year’s enduro field test were around 35 pounds.

People can say what they want about the reasons for it, but I don’t think there’s any good reason Enduro bikes should weigh in the ballpark of downhill bikes. They’re trying to tell us that extra bit of weight doesn’t matter, but I don’t count it as insignificant. A gain in 300 grams is one thing. 4-5 pounds is another. If some bikes were under built before (not the case with the Process), I suspect they’re being overbuilt now. I think in a few years we will look back on them like 90s BMX bikes.
  • 17 2
 We run inserts on my lads DH bike... why.... because, well, we can't afford rims every weekend. I've had a few flats, but not many broken rims on his practice/race runs. Flatting is one thing, but we only have a certain number of wheels/rims and if we lose a run because of flatting, that's OK, but to lose a whole weekend because we destroyed rims, well that's a whole different story.
It may be a bit of a placebo effect and we may be kidding ourselves that the rims are better protected... but that's what we believe anyway, so we stick with it.
  • 7 0
 @TEAM-ROBOT: System weight in nascar is not equal to bike weight in this scenario. System weight in DH is likely closer to 200-220lb, which puts bike weight variation closer to 3%. Suspension dynamics and weight distribution are also accentuated attributes in dh vs. auto racing due to the extremely varied terrain and lack of aerodynamic down force - meaning where and how you carry the weight matters more. I always enjoy your comments, just friendly conversation.
  • 1 0
 Thanks! Glad to hear it. I mostly agree that (at least when you're going downhill) the system weight perspective is a more accurate description of how weight impacts speed. What I'm saying is... it's interesting that bike weight doesn't seem to be important. I take absolutely tell in two pedal strokes whether a bike is light, heavy, or in the middle, but it doesn't seem to matter much on the trail. My feelings don't translate to speed, and if they do the advantage (again, only talking about going downhill here) seems to be with the heavier bike over the lighter one. Riding E-bikes kind of blew my mind with how well they track, grip, and carry speed through rough terrain.
  • 11 0
 Shit, I better throw some lead weights in my park rig, it's 34lbs!
  • 6 1
 The Pivot is light but it's a small. The Gambler is the real winner here. Fun video.
  • 3 4
 sure but they have also been snapping in half during race runs
  • 1 0
 @pssrrgg: that was a GT
  • 1 0
 @succulentsausage: the gambler snapped in half the race before, after an altercation with a tree
  • 7 0
 e-BMX the next big thing
  • 6 0
 My money is on the e-recumbent craze of 2024.
  • 1 0
 @nozes: e-Peleton...crush your times!
  • 5 3
 About par for the course I had a DH race bike low 30s 15 years ago and it kicked all over the place crap ton of deflection in rocks and tech...went back to 38-39 and fast as hell and controlled .
  • 1 0
 The weight weenie crazy 15 years ago led to some light bikes, 819 rims!!! My 224 was 32lb and I had the same problem.
38lb has always been the magic number and nothing has really changed there. Some bikes get away with being lighter than others due to their kinematics. I remember running DH tubes at Fort Bill just for the added weight to hold the tyres in a straight line!
Not weighed my current Dh bike ever but would guess 36-38lb as its coil front and rear, weighs about the same as my trail/enduro bike, which must be 33-36lb.
  • 3 0
 Roger that. Rode a bud's 29-lb enduro rig the other day on some chundery stuff and thought I' was gonna get ejected the whole way. Went back to my 38lb setup - planted. Then rode a 43 lb DH rig...even faster & more planted. Mabye also has a body to bike weight ratio in there plus setup, conditions, terrain / steepness, surface but also skill (interest) and experience too...and even then this is baby junk vs. pros even w/ years of riding. Its fun as hell to figure all this shit out.
  • 2 1
 These are all lighter than I thought, w/ 40+ lbs being exception. My freakin Capra w/ 180 fork/ coil shock & DH casing tires w/ Cush is 39 lbs (and thats pedaling 3-4000 ft days and DH/park days) but then again, Im sure pros have insta access to better but lighter components, and obviously they have played with weight for their body weight / skill / conditions, etc. Go on w/ yr bad selves, pros.
  • 7 0
 Frame weight is very similar honestly, the giant cassete, bigger dr and dropper post make up the difference between the frame and front forks easily.
  • 10 3
 Says more about how overweight current enduro bikes are. DH bikes have been at this weight since around 2006 or so.
  • 5 2
 @dualsuspensiondave: Are they (enduro bikes)? Pro riders could have any weight they want but fact is ya have to have burlier components to make it through a day of 5-6 DH runs w/ the speed / power they're doing. I doubt less weight (surely doable w/ greater cost) is gonna help that much or pros would (and we would) all have the lightest possible bikes already. Also DH bikes may weight about the same - its generally a bit less, but that ratio has changed between frame & components. Way less sketch now than they used to be and thank the gods. Either way - a few lbs up or down on enduro or DH doesn't really matter that much. Rode a bud's DH bike yesterday that was 5 lbs heavier than mine and continued to get faster times - you can get used to anything.
  • 2 4
 @Mtn-Goat-13: I would bet money that Sram riders would ditch the extra weight transmission adds if they had the choice. They would lose 0.61lbs off the rear wheel if they ran x01, which they all have the legs to do.
  • 1 1
 @taquitos: Dunno - the reliability all around of transmission seems to be worth the (minor) weight penalty. The strength these riders have is just far beyond you or me...I don't think it makes a big difference compared to how much better transmission is vs even xx1. Mabye you're right. I was saying above that a bud & I switched DH bikes for several runs the other day and even at nearly 10% greater weight on his bike (and we both weigh about 190 lbs) I continued to up my speed, felt nothing bulkier or weighter - just as much fun. At a certain point I'm not sure a few lbs (or 0.6/lb) means that much, esp at the fitness levels these riders have and w/ the focus on fast DH times.
  • 3 0
 @Mtn-Goat-13: 0.6lbs of unsprung weight is pretty significant for suspension performance
  • 13 1
 @Mtn-Goat-13: I think we’ve all swallowed the marketing, which Pinkbike has been implicit in selling in recent weeks and months. That is: “a few pounds up or down doesn’t really matter.” Up until about 10 minutes ago, we were all riding on bikes that were about 32 pounds. Now suddenly 37 pounds is acceptable? That’s a five pound difference, not the half pound difference someone’s talking about in the new SRAM cassette. Where is all this weight coming from? Why? Do we all really need Zebs and 38s? Downhill casings for our everyday tires? Everyone go ahead and build your bikes up as much as you want or need, but I can’t help but think we are swallowing a bit of a pill here.
  • 6 5
 @Mtn-Goat-13: Yes, they are. I’ve been around riding mountain bikes aggressively since 2005. I raced an enduro series in 2014 on a 28lb. 160/150mm bike and didn’t break anything. Most people didn’t. Any trail or enduro bike over 32lbs. doesn’t cut it. They will go back down in weight as the fad dies out.
  • 2 1
 @dualsuspensiondave: seems to be its all the people who just got into mtn biking who only have one bike cause someone said "it can do it all" who take every new fad or trend like it's the best thing ever, all of us that have been around Kong enough just sit back and watch everything come full circle and laugh at everyone else complaining
  • 14 2
 @dualsuspensiondave: 'most people didn't' who's most people? I couldn't keep a chain on a 2x to save my life, and pinchflats were such an occurrence there'd be party games to see who can swap a tube faster. Not to mention you could guarantee your CSU to creak in 1.5 races.

Today's bikes are incredible. Any weight savings from bikes of old are because they were simply inadequate for how they were being ridden.
  • 1 0
 @taquitos: Depends on the bike, suspension, setup and terrain. Its not just as easy as saying that however. From trail to enduro to DH bikes (and I don't ride ebike) but it also depends on your weight & strength - again, too many factors to just say that's true w/o considering the main purpose of the bike.
  • 1 3
 @TheR: I've never bought any of it - just try different things & ride what I like. If I even go Exo+ (in parks) I"m losing tires faster than I get 3 lifts uphill, but hardly ever w/ DH casings (and cush - not to mention the kickass damping w/ cush - that adds 1/2 lb per tire and yet I continue to gain speed constantly). All I heard on moving to coil shock was that I wouldn't be able to jump as high or far: total nonsense. I like air & coil, can jump as far & high on either. I'm not adding weight just to add it, but I am saying that for DH (and heavy enduro) lots of lighter gear = getting nuked &amp and adding even 4-5 lbs has not held me back whatsoever, which I know because of race & Strava times.

Of course not DH casings for everyday tires though - unless everyday is DH or you are maybe a high level enduro racer. I have a trail / enduro and a DH/enduro wheelsets and riding light trail wheels / tires at a park = dead wheels and slashed tires, no question (for me anyway). Riding DH tires on trail feels wooden but is not that big a deal (esp if things get gnarly), but I mostly ride my lighter set, but not for weight as much as for responsiveness and trail feel...and even then it depends on the kind of trail. Point is just do what you like - for me a light bike does not and cannot handle park conditions and I don't pedal my DH rig on everyday non-DH trails.

I don't know who's just buying anything / everything idea wise (or components) based on Seb or any PB articles on weight - its just ideas. You just have to ride what you like & its great to try out everything under the sun in my view until it just feels right - that's all I'm selling and its all anyone should buy: what feels right.
  • 2 0
 @Mtn-Goat-13: bike weight on a whole doesn’t matter terribly. Arguably if your sprung mass is super high the frame will not move as you run over things. Unsprung weight definitely does though. It’s fairly widely accepted that as little unsprung mass as possible is a good thing. The lower the weight of your wheel is, the faster it can get out of the way of an impact when you run into something and top out is more controlled.
  • 8 0
 @Mtn-Goat-13: @Mtn-Goat-13: First let me say I agree with you 100 percent. You do you. Everyone go ahead and do what you do. It’s not my intent to make anything personal.

But I’m going to stick by my guns in the sense we’re being gaslit and sold a bill of goods by the bike industry. Check out the weights of all the bikes in the Enduro Field Test over the last five years or so. Up until last year, they hovered closer to 30 pounds (unofficial average, +/- a pound). And these weren’t anemic bikes — Pivot Firebird, Kona Process 153, Specialized Enduros, etc. Hell, one of the cons listed for my bike was that it was heavy at 31.5 pounds. Then last year, bikes in the test were closer to 35 pounds, and suddenly they’re writing stories talking about how “a few pounds don’t matter,” trying to make it sound like these bikes were always this heavy, or that it’s impossible to make these bikes any lighter. Well they were like 5 pounds lighter just two years ago. What happened? Why this push?
  • 2 1
 @TheR: Lemme def'ly say I also do agree there's all types of selling going on but by & large I'm not even considering weight whatsoever (and I mean just about whatsoever) in buying gear / components, tires, etc. or rather - I"m not trying to go lower tho sometimes that happens inadvertantly. No doubt the industry is pushing that and also @taquitos - true on the sprung / unsprung. I"m just not sure it means that much on our amateur level vs. what pros are putting into bikes w/ speed & power but maybe I'm wrong.

I'm just not seeing the weight being an issue, and (as a total bike & stats nerd) I'm not finding any less speed whatsoever going up in weight w/ beefier tires (or cassettes even), sprung or unsprung...keep just going up & up mostly. Mostly I seem to be breaking things regardless (wrecked 2 rear wheels this weekend in fact, one being a brand new $1200 DH rear wheel that was supposed to be unbreakable and light - 1st day on it and I even went up 5 lbs WITH Cushcore) - I've only broken a single wheel in 30 years previous so now all I can think of is even the best carbon wheels are just weak (and even then only dropped 1/2 pound from my alloy setup, which I've had for years).

But: heard on the hawking of shit. I don't even blame the industry - in my view this is how we get to where we're going w/ trial & error though I'm sure tons of stuff is sold to up or down weight in specific places that is completely meaningless b/c of all the factors noted above (trail type, conditions, skill & strenght of the rider, etc).

I recall reading Seb's article on weight and listening a podcast back when Levy worked @ PB - I don't recall all the details (am remembering sprung vs. unsprung & agree) but he's not selling anything...could be worth a re-read / listen (assuming you did).
  • 1 0
 @Mtn-Goat-13: and the thing about oh weight doesn't matter, is always just tested on gravel hills. I always thought extra weight most negatively impacts lighter/weaker riders. Technical trails require a certain amount of upper body strength and the marketing is selling bikes which potentially make this harder not easier.

You see this in enduro most noticeably, at the pointy end of the industry are we really buying riders maybe 20kg different only need different suspension tunes? Or that tyres designed for 85kg riders are also what 65kg riders should be on?
  • 1 0
 @TheR: Only you choose to swallow the pill when you follow the trend instead of what works best for your specific scenario.

I remember back when people refused to ride dual suspension bikes because of the added weight...
  • 1 1
 @SonofBovril: Yeah, we’ve already discussed this. Find what works for you. I’m just trying to figure out how Enduro bikes went from weighing about 30 pounds from the Pinkbike Field Tests from 2018 to 2021 to weighing about 35 pounds last year, and why suddenly they’re telling us that amount of weight doesn’t matter. F that. It does matter. Especially that amount of weight.
  • 3 1
 @johnny2shoes: Not sure what you mean - the case in point is Jackson Goldstone. Not sure of his bike weight but he's mabye 130-140 lbs body weight (?) and throttling just about the same weight DH bike that top level 5-10-15 year pros ride and winning. Similar w/ Laurie Greenland. I'm sure they've considered weight in all regards, but It defies everything about bike weight and age / body type. Jax doesn't even work out (according to his Vitalmtb pod mini-interview)

Maybe go back and read that Seb "weight doesn't mattter" artcile (or check the pod) - he's not talking about gravel and there are far more subtties than I can recall or relate here.

But I hear what you're saying about the efficiency tests. I guess I am just not seeing or feeling the weight difference myself, even w/ wide weight range changes. I've ridden those lighter enduro bikes in 2016-2018 and now being and 37-39 lbs {pending coil and/or cushcore) and having 100's of compariative rides on strava (or races on same tracks) to compare numbers - I'm easily faster and by much more now on far heavier gear and this is mostly pedaling rides (but also DH / lift acces). I'm not even ripped, just riding as much as possible weekely for decades. Mabye its just an experience / skill / mindset thing because I feel great on heavier gear - whippy, playful, fast, and doing whatever I want an more at "bad weight" than I ever did on lighter bikes.

Still - good points on the tires for 85 vs. 65kg...I don't have answers except to just keep trying everything out. Marketing, articles and boring PB comments (like this one) will never cut it for you.

Ironically for me it was going to the DH casings (and cush both tires) that boosted my speed and it was a notable moment the casings gave better strength, cush helped w/ suspension so I could lower my pressures, and I gained confidence on looser / wild terrain, gained speed and traction - way faster. Maybe its just mind games but this happened at year 29 of 33 years riding and my speeds have gone up notably since then. I'm talking about another 2 lbs of rubber & cush (unsprung) which everyone said would slow me down - less fun on the climbs, but the drops are now better than anything.
  • 2 0
 @Mtn-Goat-13: thanks and you make some completely relevant rebuttals. I’ll dig out that old does weight matter article. Maybe I was a bit more thinking enduro/longer efforts. Maybe I was just wrong.
  • 2 0
 @johnny2shoes: thx - but I probably just ramble on too much. I need a freakin editor - but all of this for trying to think through things. I like reading things that challenge my thinking here (and you did that).

I'd say neither one of us is "right" though, just riding bikes and you feel what you feel on the bike. How you think about your setup matters and ultimately its just for you. Kazimer is constantly saying "its just bikes - you can do whatever you want" - which helps keep things in perspective & lighten things up (get it?!) But I think we agree the marketing around all this can be heavy (ha!). It can be tough to cut through but I guess its all just playing in the sandbox - and yet its a way of life too.
  • 1 0
 @Bro-LanDog: Dude, I have never ran 2X in my life. Proper tubeless DH tires have been out for a very long time. Haven’t ran tubes in well over 10 years. Didn’t have a CSU creak until about 3 years ago.

The Ripmo has been raced in the EWS for years now, and mine has been bulletproof at about 30lbs with a coil shock and big tires.
  • 2 0
 @TheR: Yes, 100% agree.
Plus I find funny how 85-90kg riders are trying to make "bike-weight" conclusions for 70kg riders (85-90kg being heavier by 25% vs 70kg).
  • 1 0
 @TheR: The extra weight is 29” wheels/tires mostly, and everything getting bigger/heavier to compensate. They’re tired of going after broke young people, they want that old money.
  • 1 0
 @emptybe-er: No, it’s not 29 inch wheels. They’ve been testing 29ers in the field test for 5 years now. It’s not 12 speed cassettes. That’s been around for a while, too. This is in the last year, especially the last 3-4 months.
  • 1 1
 Haha. Bikes have been heavier for a few yrs now. 29’ers were shoved into the market on flimsy rims, forks, frames (taller wheel puts more leverage on frame, etc) then everything was made heavier to compensate for wagon wheels. Except for tires and rims, more noticeable weight, so now we have cushcore etc. I can very clearly remember my 2017 32-33 lb process 153 with no carbon, tool or snack storage. Great geo, great bike. Now we have tanks for civilians.
  • 1 0
 @emptybe-er: I’m talking about things way before that. Your process 153 was heavy AF at that time. Most 150-160mm bikes were around 28lbs. decked out then and with good parts.
  • 1 0
 I pick my casing off of the sidewall protection I need then add Rimpact inserts if I need more sidewall support. Currently have EXO on the front with a light insert and a DD in the back with a medium insert and can probably go lighter in the rear. I don’t run inserts with DH tires, but also don’t charge like a DH racer.
  • 5 0
 Is that GT Fury weight with or without the head tube?
  • 2 0
 Filled my stumpjumper evo seat box with wind rock bike park parking g lot gravel one time. I'd guess added 4-5 lbs of weight. Much faster going downhill
  • 3 0
 All I see is a lot of people in casts.
  • 2 0
 if they wanna go downhill fast surely a heavier bike is better. Basic physics
  • 1 0
 @MuddyFoxCourierComp: Based on that same basic physics principles and no marketing gimmicks, a 26" wheel and tire will roll faster down that mountain faster than a 29'er. I think this is why some riders are likely not putting Cushcore inserts for their wheels - it's because having an insert adds weight that is moved out further from the center of the wheel and hence more moment of inertia.

Also, the heavier the bike, the faster it will slide faster downhill on ice!
  • 1 0
 @CSharp: er, physics would say a larger diameter wheel will not get stalled by bumps as much. Maybe you're just thinking of acceleration in a given situation. Being a fashion industry in part is what made 29ers come into the sport so late. And why the Syndicate aren't racing that V10 fat bike. That would be faster.
  • 4 3
 Curious, today's bike are immensely better in almost every way, but bike weight is similar to 15 years ago.
  • 21 2
 So for the same weight you are getting an 'immensely' better, stronger, more durable bike , better suspension, brakes, wheels etc etc
Kinda makes sense no?
  • 2 1
 So too little weight is not the best for dh. Weight equals more stability and better unsprung to sprung weight ratios. Probably the same reason you aren’t seeing as many inserts here.
  • 4 0
 Frames are bigger now so that definitely adds some weight
  • 7 0
 wheels were smaller 15 years ago, that should be about a kg right there
  • 1 2
 @YukonMog: Yes, but we did not take a straight line to get there. We passed from Session 10, through Session 8, learnt lessons and ended up here. Be interesting to see what it looks like 15 years from now.
  • 5 1
 This proves that for performance, weight is very low on the list of priorities, below grip, braking, suspension and durability.
  • 1 0
 So the last bikes, whatever they are (Saracen prototypes?) are the least "kicky". Nice.
  • 1 0
 Wow heavier then I thought.. my glory weighs 15.6 and I thought that was heavy
  • 1 0
 My Glory weights 23 kg. Big Grin 2007 model
  • 1 0
 shit my stumpy evo alloy with cushcore, a tool kit, and a full bottle of water weighs more than some of these.
  • 2 0
 Lead extra weight. WTF.
  • 1 0
 When my enduro bike is heavier than a DH bike. :/
  • 1 0
 Take note that none of the mechanics knew the weight.
  • 1 0
 Long live the ~40lb downhill bike!
  • 1 0
 DH Bikes weighing the same as Enduro bikes haha
  • 1 0
 other way around
  • 1 0
 My RM Instinct Alloy 30 weighs more than a couple bikes here, LOL
  • 1 0
 And they say my old Demo 9 was heavy, look at the new age bikes lmao
  • 1 0
 Wait!
  • 12 15
 Scotts build up light. My large Gambler with coil and 1 insert is 33 even. I laugh at the concept that more weight is better for DH.
  • 7 16
flag Mtn-Goat-13 FL (Jul 9, 2023 at 6:56) (Below Threshold)
 Thumbing up tho I disagree (I despise the downvote totalitarians) - more weight can (not will) keep yr bike from pinging around on chunder. But: factors. Pends on yr body weight, terrain, steepness. dry vs wet / track type & conditons, tires, compenents, strength, skill, bike geo - and so many things.

There's no one answer so lighter=better may be the deal for & you're done - thats great, but doesn't mean it can't help some
riders. It's something for people to figure out based on all the factors. I don't even know if added weight helps - but to conclude it has no meaning doesn't have merit across the DH bike realm.
  • 5 4
 If I recall correctly, the last time Steve Peat won world champs, they were doing everything possible to make it as light as possible, going as far as removing every other rotor bolt, he wasn't the only one, interesting
  • 5 16
flag Mtn-Goat-13 FL (Jul 9, 2023 at 12:11) (Below Threshold)
 See what I mean about the downvote Russians here? They just melt w/ discussion that says something different, even if you're just trying to chat. Pure 1984 type of stuff. But hey -whatever, just chatting. Most people can't even have civil disagreements without crying and trying to hide / suppress others thoughts. "Enjoy"
  • 3 1
 Did you watch the video/read the article? Many professional racers (one on a Scott Gambler no less) are adding lead weights to their bikes. Do you think you're very clever and know something about going fast that they and their team don't? That or they just don't like to win races?
  • 3 1
 @jdejace: But did they win?
  • 4 0
 @IanGilbertoud: that was a very specific track though, Mt Stromlo is more like a mild hill than a mountain. If that race was today every rider would have done it on an Enduro bike.

But yeah, some crazy lengths they went to in 2009, some were running virtually slick tyres. Even as an Aussie, it's cringe worthy they held worlds on that track lol.
  • 2 2
 @Brasher: hey you remember! Ft Bill is gonna be wild, too bad GMBN will ruin all the coverage
  • 5 0
 @Mtn-Goat-13: so anybody that disagrees with you is "Russian", "Suppresses" your opinions, makes it 1984, by being a "totalitarian"?
I mean I hate that term, but to me, that is the definition of snowflake. People are allowed to have other opinions than you!
  • 2 5
 @Kainerm: That would be absurd. I'm referring to downvoting itself...its functionally suppressive and the fact that PB has downvoting at all is pretty lame. All you have to do is upvpte what's good, the rest just sits.

More so Its better to chat / talk / ask / clarify about anything here than attempt to hide anyone's comments - and the downvote concept means "hide this comment". I want all the ideas about bikes (not sexism, politics, etc) and ESPECIALLY those I disagree with because those are the ones that make me think. Even then - just move on if you don't like something. Its the whole suppression & hiding of ideas, which downvoting does, that is lame - not the disagreement.
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