Video: Radon Launches Updated Swoop Enduro Bike

 0 fcks given for PB opinions and I totally respect that.

 just bring a straw. you don't have streams where you ride?

 How does any bike meant to be pedaled uphill get through the design process with no bottle option... honestly it is baffling in this day and age.

 just drill couple holes like pivot for "their" tool

 @bikekrieg: It's a shame they don't at least do like YT and create a custom smaller bottle to fit where it can...

 Radon more interested in making it easy for the design engineers. "Hey guys, don't worry about a bottle cage, it's a bit of a pain, let's just copy YT"

 Well 1. nowhere near the Radon Headquarters are hills big enough for anybody to cary waterbottles 2. nobody at Radon is riding a bike without an engine in it

 @Smokey79: YT has options for a smaller bottle though. This has nothing.

 Nobody drinks in the future.

 Ride with a camelback, it will protect your back!

 @pasteque51: or Evoc

 Strap-on.

 Drill 2 holes under the downtube ,stop complaining

 @endlessblockades: or a Northface

 @Shafferd912: not for the capra it doesnt. It's only for the jeffsy

 I couldn't care less.

 @bikekrieg: the last time I had a bottle on my bike, it was on a $300 hardtail almost 20 years ago

All things equal, If I had to chose between a better looking bike, and a bike with bottle mounts, I would chose the former.

 @bikekrieg: they didnt want to pay for patents, and the bike is much cheaper. use a bag i guess.

 @chyu: water, you mean

 @f00bar: your back must get so sweaty...

 @bikekrieg: nah, not really an issue... the trick is to wear a lightweight mesh tank under the t-shirt

 @f00bar: I disagree. Plenty of good looking bikes with bottle storage. There is no shortage in the industry right now when it comes to bikes with solid geometry and good looks. I 100% will only buy a bike with a bottle storage. Having the option to not ride with a pack on short rides and still have water is huge.

 @Clifflane3: i hate to admit it, but bottles are a damn fine solution for a 1-hour blast. Backpacks are a great invention, but the sensation of wearing one is suboptimal. I have received no money from the water bottle industry to say this, and had I not found an old cage and bottle in my folks' garage this epiphany would never have occurred. Resistance is futile.

 @BenPea: I need a bag for the beer anyway, so I have one that also happens to have some spine protection and a 3L water bag. I usually for for 4 hours or so. Just me though. When racing, I carry nothing, hit aid stations on transfers or stash drinks.

 @endlessblockades: 1-hour short sweet blasts for me. House is an aid station. 4-hour rides are a rarity nowadays, life has changed.

 @BenPea: Poor chap - ya had kids, eh?

 @endlessblockades: yep. Obviously a mistake, but they keep me on the straight-ish and narrow.

 @BenPea: Nah it's a good thing. Mine are teens now so I am pretty free. Kids are cool. Sorry about the diaper thing though.

 @endlessblockades: that trauma has subsided - they're 9 and 6 - the issue now is that the little effers have personalities. Whodda thunk it? Had we been "locked down" elsewhere than in the country, the carnage would have been epic. Fortunately, my water bottle and I can get some quality time together near the house...

 @BenPea: I know! They have discovered that they can pretend they have 'Free Will' and can actually effect change when making demands!! Still, kids are alright - I've owned 3. So glad my job allowed be to go to work every M-F since this mess began. Kids would have eaten me alive in a home-quarantine situation. Quaranteens.

 @endlessblockades: I work (not just ride) mainly from home and have done since I arrived here in 2002. It was a great gig until this shit. My kids are nuts and so are their parents. They're all more willful than me. Thank f*ck I discovered trail building. And ploughing the garden with a railroad pick. Things are getting primal.

 Seems like there are plenty of 4 bar frame designs with really good suspension and water bottles and low seat tubes/good dropper insertion depths out there.

This frame/suspension design would have to REALLY blow out the competition to make it worth while...?

 You can have space for a water bottle AND good suspension design

 no bottle cage, no purchase for me, sorry

 @Narro2: I'm on my 4th full suspension frame without a bottle cage, and would describe it as a minor inconvenience at worst. The only reason that I even care at all is because for some reason I like using bottles more than bladders so it is nice not to have to stop to get a bottle out of my bag. I'm not gonna let that tiny little detail stop me from buying a frame that is the right fit at the right price.

 @pacificnorthwet: Good for you, personally I find myself just not riding often times if it requires a backpack. Hot sweaty, totally changes weight balance on the bike.

 @nfontanella: Water bottles are disgusting.

 @jordanaustino: totally agree, is easy to say 'use a camelback" when you ride in places with 60-70F weather, but when you live and ride on above 100F weather is a totally different thing. I own 2 camelbacks, i never use them. i think one of the bladders is still new, never used.

 @Narro2: you could put ice in the bladder to help keep you cool.

 @pacificnorthwet: I get that. But there’s so many bikes out right now with good geo, look good and have bottle mount. You don’t have to settle for one with out. The industry is prime with awesome choices for us.

 @masacrejoe: haha, never thought about it, still it doesnt make sense to me, there is a trail from my house to my work place, it takes 15 minutes to ride it, it doesnt make sense to bring a camelback for such short trail, and then go through the prroblem of where to store the camelback once i am at work. So it depends on the case

 @Narro2: for long rides I’ve got a bottle in the frame a bottle under the down tube and a water filter to refill at creek crossings. Little frame bag which also has an emergency first aid kit just in case.

The water on the back really screws up how I feel on the bike and also on a long ride tends to give me some lower back pain. Same with bottles in a road bike jersey pocket ????‍♀️ (I raced for a decade).

 @endlessblockades: why

 @nfontanella: They are generally dirty-nozzled industrial-grade plastic cylinders emblazoned with some kind of advertising. They end up littering nature when they inevitably fall off and they ruin the aesthetics of a work of art bike frame. And they are not beer.

 @endlessblockades: BS, they are not littering nature. I can count the number of dropped water bottles I've seen on one hand and you PICK THEM UP and leave them at the trailhead.

FIXED

 @stiingya: Hey, he asked 'why' so I had to come up with something. Irrational hatred isn't a logical reason.

 true dat

 Ehh, chain is probably the place where most people cheap out, zero performance advantage and until recently the cheaper chains have been just as durable as the more expensive counterparts. And if you live in a really wet region it doesn't make sense to buy an expensive chain since it will wear prematurely anyways unless you carry chain lube and reapply every half hour. I agree on the shifter though.

 @skerby: Grit and muck included, an x01 chain will get almost triple the life of GX and multitudes more than SX/NX. It's a cheap replacement part, sure - but you can easily use up a cheap chain for a season, toast your cassette, and then need to get a new chain AND cassette. Performance advantages aside (of which there are some - wattage, chamfering for shift performance, etc.) I'm sure we can all agree that keeping the running costs down is important. An x01 chain has cheaper running costs than an NX in terms of lifetime usage - if you're running SRAM, it's the better route to go spend that $$ up front and not worry about your chain for longer. Wet grime will wear out the cheaper chains faster, not slower - the hard chrome treatment is on the inner links/rollers, which should resist those bits of grit quite a lot better than the softer finish on the lower level chains.

10 and 11 speed groupsets had less of a durability advantage, sure, but it was still in the 30% range of how many more miles you'd get with a top-spec chain. Eagle's been out for like four years now, so it's not a super recent thing to the market, either. And not to nitpick the hyperbole with the 30-minute chain lube: the problem with wet and gritty riding is largely going to be that crap getting into the rollers, not the wetness displacing the chain lube. Use a wet lube, it'll attract a bunch of garbage, clean it off when it gets too bad. Use a dry lube, attracts less garbage, sauce up the lube more often. There are some wax-based lubricants, like those by the squirt brand, which hold up pretty nicely when it's wet as well and don't attract a whole lot of dirt.

 "... tricking uninformed customers ..." They just informed you right there, in the spec sheet. Just like most other brands offering bikes at this pricepoint, they typically spec their bikes to meet that pricepoint. Which implies picking a couple of highlights and toning down where they think they can. They arguably spec'd decent tires (which others are known to cut corners at) and brakes and suspension seem fine too. Can't say anything about that shifter but what could be so bad about the chain? A lower end chain doesn't accelerate drivetrain wear, a stretched chain does. It may stretch quicker than the higher end ones so you just end up replacing it quicker, but that's it. That's what you paid for (or didn't, in this case). As for the shifter, I haven't used anything recent from SRAM but I recall the X5 trigger was pretty horrible and very different from X7 and up. That said, if I'm counting back from X0 then GX would be the X9 equivalent and NX would be X7, is that correct? If so, NX/X7 isn't all that bad. I recall Sam Hill used to use the X7 trigger on his Iron Horse (the one from before the Sunday) even though the X9 was available too. Seems to me like if you're getting this particular Radon, you're either willing to just give it a shot or just accept that it already a good deal and invest a bit more to upgrade the shifter. Much cheaper than upgrading a set of tires, by all means. Plus of course, for the market this bike is aimed at, I can imagine 2999 euro just sells better than 3014 euro. Meeting a certain pricepoint is definitely a goal.

 I agree. I have a giant trance with a full SLX build and everything is (surprise surprise) all SLX. I hated the SLX shifter and after going through two of them I upgraded to an XT shifter and it’s so much better. Having XT with an SLX shifter would totally suck.

 @vinay: Lower end chains wear out faster; there's tons of well-done research on the topic. And, if a chain is at .5 in 500 miles when x01/xx1 bikes don't even register stretch at the same distance, that surely can be called "accelerated wear." I've run into more than enough customers who don't understand what the nomenclature of small components are - they hear "gx drivetrain" and think it's a complete setup. It's disingenuous at the very best to have a "gx drivetrain" where only the LEAST important part of the entire drivetrain is of that level.

Your opinion on the shifters is completely irrelevant if you haven't used anything more recent than the x7 era. NX has a longer throw, more free stroke, no matchmaker option, and is a good bit less precise and tactile than a GX shifter. And while they still may be a decent deal, accounting for the mis-named drivetrains, the ~5000 model is similar enough spec to a trek/specialized/giant/ibis with some kashima coating instead of blacked out performance elite.

Claiming 2-3 drivetrain levels up from what it's actually comprised of creates a ton of value in the mind of MANY of the people who are shopping for this kind of bike, and it's a shit way to market the product at worst, and an utterly stupid parts spec at best. The few bucks they save should be taken out of the derailleur, and put into the shifter. There's a large enough cost differential at the OEM level to put an nx shifter/gx chain/gx shifter instead of the gx shifter/crap/crap spec and claim it's GX. There's relatively few companies out there that up-spec the shifter compared to the drivetrain. I hope that the bare minimum takeaway from this would be that in practice, putting the $$$ into the chain/shifter/cassette is more important than an up-branded derailleur. Doesn't cost any money to redistribute those parts....and all you lose is the marketing designed to trick beginner riders.

 My bikes got GX mech with an nx shifter and nx crankset, it works fine and a year an a half later still haven't had to touch it, you clean and regrease

 @parkourfan: I’m not arguing your points, but I am curious if you have any citations for the research on chain wear. Mind sharing some links in a PM or even here in the comments?

I remember an in depth drivetrain test in a controlled environment years ago that showed XO1 chains taking a slight advantage over the pack, but most other chains coming in very close to each other. Curious to see if there have been major improvements in chain development in the couple of years... thank you in advance!

 @parkourfan: Yes, higher end chains last longer. But do they last proportionally more in relation to the price? That is, does a chain twice as expensive last at least twice (or more) as long? I'm not keeping my own stats but I haven't seen this in articles on the subject. I'm running e-bike chains though and I doubt the race-spec (XTR or the SRAM equivalent) would last longer than those, so there is more to it than just price.

I don't think the article suggests it has a full GX drivetrain.
"
- Drivetrain (and then comes the drivetrain spec): SRAM GX Eagle / (except for) with NX Shifter and SX Chain
"
So I read that as "here come the drivetrain specs: everything is GX except for shifter and chain". Would a customer really read that and claim "oh, I thought the shifter and chain would have been GX too"? Makes you wonder who's fooling who. Pretty sure even a beginner who reads "with NX shifter and SX chain" understands that is no GX shifter and no GX chain.

Yes I agree that NX and GX are likely different from X7 and X9, was merely referring to the level of quality. If it easily breaks, soon wear out etc then yes that's an issue. But the "issues" you mention may be issues for some and perfectly fine for others. Either way, it won't cause product failure or wear. That is for the shifter of course. As for the chain, no matter what chain you use it is always good practice to check for chain elongation every time you lube the chain. The chain checker is a fraction of the price of a chain so no point skimping on that. If the consumer realizes "oh, that was quick" he/she may choose to replace it with a better chain. But I'd say if they wear down expensive drivetrain components by running a worn chain, I'd attribute that at not properly checking for chain wear rather than for running a low end chain.

 @vinay: Yes, they do. If you're not going to take the minimum amount of time to either 1) test it yourself or 2) look up one of the many tests on that exact subject, one of which was featured on PB already, don't waste time when you'd rather be willfully ignorant than go for a quick google search or phone call to corroborate your feelings. I think you'll find from the upvotes that more people are agreeing with me. And, maybe you should address the clear logic of the marketing that they're doing - saying "GX drivetrain" when there's only a GX derailleur for brand recognition is a marketing ploy and nothing else. Look on their site. They'll put "1x12 eagle drivetrain" in the description and "GX eagle" in the highlights of the specifications. Sure, it's not like they're advertising it as something it's not, they're just choosing to market it in a misleading way. And to reiterate, performance wise, redistributing the $$$ spent would be much better for the end consumer with a gx shifter/gx chain/nx derailleur spec. Stop defending stupid parts spec, take the bare minimum to look at the (incredibly easy to find) research and the way these bikes are advertised and promoted. Also, your feelings hold absolutely no weight if you're not tracking what you run/have zero experience with what's currently on the market.

@rustyjacksons The cyclingtips test is the most recent one available, and was right up here on PB and in a nice MTB perspective. Velonews, zerofrictioncycling have also posted tests, among others. Ceramaspeed will talk your ear off about chain life and wattage if you're into that. Shop education programs from every major brand/outlet will discuss this. Sram tech support will happily talk to you about chain life/technologies, wipperman has done testing, KMC and shimano tech support will also discuss it.

Value-wise, xo1 wins out over NX for $/mile. Distance wise, the difference is insane - I'd much rather have a chain that I don't have to worry about smoking parts with.

Anecdotally, I've had 5 bikes with eagle setups, 1 with all nx, a couple with all GX, one all XO, and one xo1 axs. I've worn out that nx cassette and two GX cassettes. My rides are all tracked with mileage at a bare minimum, and I can personally attest that the NX drivetrain was hot garbage that smoked the chain in around 500 miles. GX chains tend to last right around double that. XO and xx1 chains don't even register on two different styles of standard park chain checkers at 3-500 miles, you need a digital caliper or a fresh chain to check it reliably. These are all apples to apples MTB tests run in the same locale, through winter and summer miles.
I've also tracked my 11spd road drivetrains across two bikes with power (crank) two aero bikes with power (pedals) and several road/cx bikes without power and just mileage - dura-ace and XX1 had a clear advantage over the cheaper options, like the pc1130's that I must have sold hundreds of every year. However, there's admittedly less of a wear differential as compared to the eagle stuff we have now, where there's a crazy longevity benefit to be had. I also spent plenty of time with shop-sponsored athletes who have to track mileage across their bikes, and more importantly, rental bikes in a race series with multiple available drivetrain levels, which all see the exact same distance week in and week out. In that same race series, I also used e-bikes as neutral support rigs that saw 2-300 miles/weekend - some with 11spd slx/XT, some with 105, some with deore 10spd in that timeframe. Again, same kind of results that support that higher end chains last longer in terms of stretch - and in the case of those slx/xt drivetrains, a clear shifting performance benefit as well.

 @parkourfan: Yes, I've read the cyclingtips article, that's my source too. It states the NX chain is cheaper per km than the GX chain. The more expensive chains just last longer. So yeah, let's say the ideal chain depends on the user. If the user prefers to neglect their drivetrain and realizes the chain is stretched too far when it is already too late, they'd be better served with a chain that lasts longer. The regular rider who checks for chain wear every time he/she lubes the chain is cheaper off with the NX chain. The XO1 chain is cheaper per km indeed so that would save money in long run both ways but as I mentioned, these bikes are spec'd to a certain pricepoint. As much sense as it makes, if it is fixed at 2999 euro and they can just spec an SX chain, they likely can't replace that for an X01 chain at that same pricepoint without affecting anything else. Even dropping the rear mech to NX (dropping the gearing range from 10-50 to 11-50, doesn't it?) wouldn't make up for the difference. These are the decisions they've made and we can argue until the cows come home, you'd rarely (if ever) get a complete bike with a spec you're 100% ok with. The argument we're having here seems to be that I'd say it is cool just ride it until the chain needs replacement and then either get a better more durable chain or continue with cheap but frequent chain replacements. And you claim it is unacceptable, the customer needs the durable chain right away. Different views, probably based on different maintenance routines. Let's agree to disagree there, ok.

Again, the article doesn't claim it is a "GX drivetrain". It states "drivetrain: GX with NX shifter and SX chain". Seems to me like that'd be a GX rear mech, cassette and crankset as far as the GX stuff goes. But really, no one would manage to read it as being a GX drivetrain without noticing the NX shifter and SX chain in that very same line.

 @vinay: We're done here. The article you cite states eagle xo1 as the cheapest chain to run per KM - it even comes in a pretty graph, in case you can't read. Radon's website states "gx drivetrain" and highlights the gx mech front and center. OEM cost of their setup - gx mech/nx shifter and chain - would be essentially the same as nx mech/gx shifter and chain. The chain would last longer than the NX (albeit not at a greater value), and putting $$ into the shifter is what anyone with an ounce of sense would do. There's no argument against that for the end user. Never did I state that it should come stock with an xo1 chain - just that their advertising (on their website, not this article - which you seem to prefer to cite, although shoppers will see the website and not the article) and parts spec is misleading, stupid, and you can rearrange the money for greater benefit to the consumer. Base, flat cost, both shop and EP, on an NX/GX eagle shifter is a couple dollars difference.

 @parkourfan: Alright, fine. Here is their website:
www.radon-bikes.de/en/mountainbike/fullsuspension/swoop-cf/swoop-90-2020

I don't see where it says "GX drivetrain", the find function of my browser can't either. It says "wide range Eagle" in the description but no specifics on SX/NX/GX etc. Then you have the specs list:

Crank: GX
shifter: NX
rear derailleur: GX
cassette: GX
chain: SX

That's what it says on their product page. Not being able to read is something you're apparently worried about and indeed it seems like you should. So there, I did that for you.

 Looks much better than a YT.

 Looks like a Clash

 Come on guys, that's not how the saying goes.

 @IntoTheEverflow: looks like a session.

 This, the Jeffery, and the clash all look like a Nicolai Ion

 @onlyDH: You mean the Jefferson, George.

 @endlessblockades: I thank autocorrect for this comedic opportunity

 I'll have to double check numbers but I think my Habit has 510 seat tube, with a 200mm dropper.

 I'm that one guy you all know. With a 510 seat tube and a 150 mm dropper I have a little over 110 mm of exposed post. That means I would need a 270 mm dropper to have one long enough that I could maybe need to shim down 10 mm to slam it. A shorter tube would mean less insertion, and then that's a lot of big dude creating a massive lever arm.

 Inseam 100cm seattube 49cm oneup 210 sticks way out.

But this Radon with 495 reach would be a bit short for me, it would be ok for someone who is 6'2" and then the 210 dropper could be a problem. Maybe thats why they sell it with such short droppers?

 My Guerilla Gravity Revved frames have not one, but two water bottles inside the frame. Plus, I still got a place to strap on a tube above the shock AND you can adjust headset for reach and stack. Rumor had it that GG was considering making cups to change head angle as well, now that would really be icing on the cake!

 @nurseben: my bike thats twice the price also has 2 bottle holders. the cheapest guerilla gravity cost 3900 EUR.

The cheapest radon is 2999EUR and has more expensive hardware.

 "Where else can you buy a carbon beast like this starting at €2999"

Umm... CRC? Here's a search for carbon FS bikes under £2700 (roughly 2999 EUR): www.chainreactioncycles.com/mountain-bikes/full-suspension?f=2637&sort=pricelow&pf=&pt=2700

Also: www.canyon.com/en-gb/mountain-bikes/trail-bikes/spectral/spectral-cf-7.0/2231.html

The Capra too, but that doesn't take a bottle either Could probably find some more examples if I tried.

Not saying the Radon is bad, but hardly the only choice so it's not like you are forced into a compromise these days. There is a selection of well-priced bikes with well-working suspension that also happen to have that damn bottle space so if it matters to someone why would they not be picky? I get it you like your backpack but a) what's the benefit of being forced to wear one on every single ride as opposed to having options and b) not everyone likes what you like.

As for upspeccing rear mechs and downspeccing shifters, come on, seriously... I'm sure deep down you know it's a dumb practice straight out of the 90s that should have died long ago (luckily it mostly has) and is squarely aimed at tempting noobs with visible bling to the detriment of the actual experience on the trail. It should 100% be the other way around or just spec full NX and make the bike cheaper (or give it better hubs or brakes or something, idk, anything but a useless rear mech 'upgrade').

If consumers weren't picky, what would be the incentive for manufacturers to improve anything ever?

 Flexy and side loading on the shock bushings.

 My first thought. Two German direct sales brands and a 95% overlap in frame design, kind of boring!

 I got one. I love it. More of an xc rig though, the Skeen.

 my first dh bike was a radon...it was a good bike for less money. for younger rider or people without a big wallet it´s a perfect brand.

 @Arierep: lyrik is 600 grams lighter

 which looks like a furious which looks like a tues

 Swoop never had one