Content Warning - Incoming WaffleThere are some things that are totally nonsensical in mountain biking today: seat-tube slackening flip chips, the idea that conservative isn’t just a synonym for bad, the notion that every-bloody-thing needs to be made of carbon and maybe the thought that you can rescue a 29er's conservative geometry by putting a smaller wheel in the back and calling it a day, although that last one seems to have been just a phase.
Mixed wheeled bikes aren’t bad of course. Only the idea that they could be some golden ticket for a bike company to Marty-McFly any ol’ piece of crap into the modern-day without severely compromising other parts of the bike. Mulleting a bike can be a great idea, and a very easy way to drastically change your bike's geometry. There’s also no reason why a bike should not be built around the concept. However, there’s a big difference between that and slinging smaller wheels into production frames in a bid to get another year out of a product cycle.
It’s like a shot of botox in the face of an old Hollywood star as they try and eke out another action film. All the CGI and whitened teeth aren't going to hide the truth, and I don’t care how much zeal he has… somebody put Tom Cruise out of his misery. I mean, does the poor fella look like a young man or just an old one with a slightly strange and uncomfortable face? It’s kind of the same for the first wave of mixed wheel bikes, but I digress.
There’s nothing wrong with getting old, and I say that as somebody that has somehow missed my mid 20s sweet spot altogether and that’s gone straight from baby faced to falling apart, achy knees and looking, in a word, haggard. Is your whole body meant to hurt all the time? Oh it is? Great. That’ll do me nicely for the next 50 years.
Much like there is nothing wrong with growing old there is nothing wrong with making a bike that may well have been about right on its release but hasn’t aged well. The world moves on, new ideas come about and that’s just how it is. The issue is, in this case, trying to resist the clutches of time and not just cut your losses. The first wave of production mixed wheeled bikes were the toupée-wearing middle aged men of the mountain bike world. Some people go bald and that’s fine - it is what it is.
 | Standards, I believe, suffer from their own name. I think the word “standard” is a bit too self imposing. |
There are other things in the mountain biking industry that are so sensible but receive so much flack, and I don’t believe it’s deserved. For instance - the idea that maybe the first wheel size to be manufactured en masse might not be the best for all applications. Crazy, I know. Or what about the ultimate bogeyman of mountain biking - standards? But are they really that bad?
Does the Word "Standard" Fit the Bill?Standards, I believe, suffer from their own name. I think the word “standard” is a bit too self imposing. Whether it’s standard or not really depends on the uptake. It’s a bit like when people say that New Year's Eve is going to be the
best night ever!! The weight of expectation alone isn’t conducive to having the time of your life and no amount of fireworks seen through a drunken mist while wearing a hastily assembled Princess Diana fancy dress outfit is going to change that. Regrettably, I know this from personal experience.
The problem with New Years is that we’ve probably all had an absolutely amazing one and this both sadly, and in this instance ironically, sets the standard for the years to come. As soon as you become self aware of how great NYE can be it will never be the same again.
 | Let me be absolutely, unequivocally clear - I don’t think it would be great for each brand to have a different spoke type |
And it’s the same with standards. The first time somebody used the word it was probably an eye opening, promotion inducing moment. On the other end of the spectrum there is the word
proprietary. This suffers from a similar if not slightly different problem. Where “standard” causes frustration by being overtly imposing, “proprietary” intimidates. The potential benefits of a proprietary system are merely a slice of Red Leicester on a mouse trap to some. Delicious? Yes yes yes. Worth breaking your neck for? Debatable, my furry friend.
Do You Care? Does Anyone?I understand why people complain about new standards. I mean, I think it’s often a bit shallow and short sighted, but I do understand. Some standards are good though and they do serve a purpose.
But what I can’t understand is people venting their frustration about something while also acknowledging that they have no interest in purchasing it. If you don’t like a brand’s take on the spoke or somebody’s new BB design then that’s fine - but just don’t buy it. It’s not like there is a gun to your head. The victimhood can be flat out bizarre.
Do you know what I don’t like? Seafood. Do I go and stand on the coast shouting at the sea just to let all those disgusting critters know what I really think? Apart from that ill-fated holiday in Devon, no.
It’s almost a social phenomenon. It’s like arguing with somebody in the comments section of a celebrity's social media post as you try to assert what Kanye West really meant when he said something moronic.
If you and I were riding along I could not give one iota of fecal matter if our spokes are interchangeable, or any other part of our bikes for that matter. My bike, my problem.
 | The idea, however, that the bike industry is forcing things on the customer that they have to buy against their will is cringeworthy. |
The truth is, I honestly have no allegiance to any one design type of anything and I really don’t mind if you do. I think it’s really important to buy something you want with the characteristics you desire. That to me seems so thoroughly sensible.
Is It All a Way to Drive Bike Sales?The idea, however, that the bike industry is forcing things on the customer that they have to buy against their will is cringeworthy. Owning a mountain biking isn’t a god-given right and neither is your custom. Bike companies are there to make money and that shouldn’t be something we’re uncomfortable with. They should just make the best they can offer. That's not to say they shouldn't be held to account for their actions like anyone, but make them accountable for their outlook and conduct, not getting our unmentionables in a twist if they increase the width of a hub by 6mm.
If you owned a bike company, with staff to pay and bills to cover, would you honestly stick with an inferior design or try and appeal to a niche who are very vocal in their desire to recuse themselves from a new purchase? Of course not. And I'm not saying that people only make bikes to make money, to do so would be wholly untrue and the bike industry is full of people with passion - but everyone who runs a business needs to keep themselves out of the red.
I suppose my overarching ethos is rather simple - sometimes new standards are annoying and proprietary components can be infuriating, however if we didn’t have people that would think out of the box and gladly drag bike design forwards, often kicking and screaming, then the bikes you and I ride would be worse for it. Some changes are less consequential to the whole of our bikes but others can potentially be a can of worms.
The modern trail bike is a wonderful thing. I suppose I double take when somebody lauds the capabilities of their 29” 140mm travel bike with progressive geometry and all the trimmings in one breath and then says “
Eugh, Boost though” in the next. I’m not saying it’s a direct consequence, or that bikes would be all that much worse without Boost spacing, but things such as axle spacing standards have played their part in making the mountain bike what it is.
I know some of you don’t want anything to do with a wheelset that uses a certain kind of spoke or maybe a hub that means you’re going to have to change your chainring, but the list of things that we, as a community, have resisted and mocked is as long as it is illustrious.
Are new standards a con conjured up by the bike industry? I don’t believe so. A lot of it comes down to what you want: the best performance full stop, or the best performance derived by shared technologies. We don’t look at suspension units and get frustrated that Fox and RockShox seals aren’t interchangeable. Sometimes you need design freedom to chase a particular concept.
The Casualties Along the WayOne section of riders I really do have sympathy with is people who buy a full build, perhaps not knowing what they’re getting themselves in for and 18 months down the line they realise that they ride what is essentially a who’s who of obscure bike brands. But, in general, I don’t think we’ve ever had it so good and although there seems to be an upheaval every few years, something like Boost being a notable example, I think the modern mountain bike is a truly amazing thing and that companies do remarkably well to all be on most of the same pages.
For me, the main stumbling block is that I find it hard to understand why we willfully homogenize design. Yes, J bend spokes, for example, may well be the best option - I am open to that - but I see it far more fruitful if you encourage bike companies to make whatever whacky thing they want and then we just vote with our feet. It’s the vocal dissent that confuses me.
And let me be absolutely, unequivocally clear - I don’t think it would be great for each brand to have a different spoke type - but at the same time, it really wouldn’t be the end of the world, provided spares were manufactured and available. It would be a few years of weird kooky designs then followed by many years enjoying the fruits that the exploration yielded. Which doesn’t seem so bad to me.
I want the best bike full stop. No ifs, no buts. Whatever design ideology a company chooses to follow I think they should be encouraged to do so. I want an ambitious and bold design that doesn’t want to just keep up with the Jones’ and fall in line. It wants to separate itself from the bunch because it may well just be on to something. Sometimes it will be crap but, then again, that’s always the risk of innovation.
But stupid ones, when there is already something out there not so much. *cough 15×110 TA when 20mm was already out there.*
Also let's not forget the 20,000 different bb standards and how many different rear spacing standards there are. Are all of them really necessary.
The 15x100 standard worked fine for 26" wheels and 29er XC bikes, I thought it was pretty okay for 27.5 bikes ridden hard too, but was pretty leaking for 29ers ridden hard, especially for heavier riders.
Yeah it's really not as complex as people think it is, and actually road bikes are way worse.
We pretty much have three BB standards - threaded, PF92 and BB30, the latter of which nobody really uses now.
As for hubs like you say, it's basically non-boost, boost or superboost (same as 150).
With a few proprietary/weird exceptions (t47 for example), most bikes and frames are pretty interchangeable these days. You can put an eagle drivetrain on a 10 year old 26" bike if you really wanted to. I just don't understand what people are upset about.
Finger on whose pulse? The Range is one of the very few new MTBs with a PF92 BB these days. (Pivot does this too.)
Ah yes, clearly a pf92 bb is the determining factor in the radicalness of a new bike design
www.bikeradar.com/news/shimano-and-fox-introduce-15mm-through-axle-hubs-and-wheels
Yeah, that’s not difficult to do, depending on the hub. And any mechanic worth their salt can build a 26” wheel with a modern free hub. Again, not hard.
Woah, three readily available freehub standards across the whole of mountain biking. Wild.
Maybe we can split the market in two halves. There is the audience (1) that wants lighter, more efficient, stiffer etc. Most new standards are introduced to achieve those goals. And then you have audience (2) that just wants to ride and replaces parts because they break or wear. And they want to be able to fix stuff with the generic bike tools they already have and do most foreseeable stuff out on the trail with their generic biketool. I think for audience (1) it is safe to introduce new standards at will. These people are willing to try it and also willing to take their loss if it is being surpassed by the next big thing. These early adopters are what drives development. They'd be willing to buy a new Hope bike with a new axle standard, radial brake mount and whatnot as they see value in it. And then for audience (2) commit to a few different popular, affordable and open standards and stick with it. Tapered 1 1/8" to 1.5" steerers, 104mm BCD chainrings, half inch pitch chains, J-bend spokes, six bolt rotors as you can remove the rotor when you bend one and still ride back home. Kind of how long term support (LTS) software releases work. It might also help smaller bikeshops decide what to keep in stock and what are the more risky investments. Of course the can of worms is open already so you can't really eliminate most current standards anymore. But if they'd commit to supporting what is out now (and wear parts in particular), they can go wild on stuff that might provide a minor improvement as long as it is clear that it is the "latest and greatest". 30.5" wheels for amazing rollover (until 32" comes along, that is), 3/8" pitch chains for smaller rear sprockets (like they already used in track cycling), cranks with built-in pedal bearings for thinner pedals, 39.99mm diameter seattube for stronger, longer and more durable dropper posts (with a new convenient and adjustable clamping mechanism to the saddle). People know up front what they're investing in so they won't be upset if it will be short lived and poorly supported, because the alternative (long term support and availability) was right there too.
TL;DR: The first Saint brake-hub interface (2004) was oversized centerlock. As for new standards, allow bike brands to go wild with whatever new standard they need for minor "improvements". They just need to provide long term support for the current standards.
because, no.....not it wasn't. lol
There is no problem running a SRAM cassette with a Shimano drivetrain or the other way around, so they are not locking you into their ecosystem at all.
I know what XD and Microspline achieve over the old HG standard, my point is everyone used to use HG, any cassette worked on any freehub, it was standard.
Now there are 2 different options that achieve the same thing, I don't care which one we use, I've had both and they both work fine, but now I'm stuck buying Shimano cassettes whilst I have a Microspline freehub or I have to spend another £60 if I wanted to run a SRAM cassette, or a similar amount if I wanted to use a SunRace 12sp.
It doesn't matter that it's trivial to swap one out, it's cost/expense to use a different component with no discernable advantage for each system, just one system will do - like when we all used HG.
Either way, both microspline and XD don't necessarily allow you to run a bigger gear range but they do allow you to run a smaller sprocket (smaller than 11t). And the smaller it is, the more load is spread over fewer teeth and the quicker it will wear. My 11t sprocket (running a 34t oval front ring, 165mm cranks and 26" wheels) needs to be replaced every time I replace my chain. And yes I do replace my chain at 0.5% strain. These are about 3 euro for XT (steel) and 6 euro for XTR (titanium) so not that much of a deal. Most people seem to run larger cranks and a smaller chain ring so they already have more force going through the chain for the same amount of force on the pedals. If you'd then use a 10t or 9t sprocket, it takes even more of a beating and will wear even faster. And if you can't buy individual sprockets and need to buy a larger cluster (or a full cassette) instead it soon gets unacceptable. At least for me.
So yeah, microspline and XD may add value to some, but definitely not to all. Apparently HG is cheaper to produce (considering Shimano can make those out of steel but steel microspline would be too expensive) so it will definitely stick around.
nsmb.com/articles/have-new-standards-made-bikes-better
Mr Tolnai gets Round 1 with his example of a modern 2011 bike.
I look forward to the next round of the inter-website debate.
Bikes are toys. We are adults playing with toys. Let’s not complain too much.
135 is the same as 142, the only difference being that the 142 has a longer axle that fits in slots in the frame, so lining everything up is easier.
150 is the same as 157, the only difference being that the 157 has a longer axle that fits in slots in the frame so lining everything up is easier.
148 is closer in shell size to a 135/142 hub than it is to 150/157 hub. There was/is even a 141 QR boost hub that further reinforces this point. Looking at the only consistent measurement of hub shell width there was the old school standard started in the 80's of a 135/142 hub and then +6 mm to get to boost. If you want to go from that 135/142 hub to DH/super boost you are adding 15 mm to the hub.
15 mm front axles are a standard because there was no way you could have convinced an XC guy 10 or 15 years ago that they should make the switch from the QR front axles that they were still using, straight to an axle standard that was for DH/Freeride bikes. Many in the XC crowd are still convinced that they need road bike head angles or they won't be able to go up a hill or get around a sharp corner. They really do not like change.
I don't push on the front wheel hard enough to have ever noticed the difference in the front stiffness, due to bad riding habits developed from starting riding 30 years ago, when you mostly needed to get way back or go OTB all the time.
I was never comfortable on 29er rear wheels untill boost came out, could feel the flex bad on anything but the highest end wheels. Never would have bought a 29er without either boost or a DH/Superboost hub. I have never rode a Superboost equiped bike, but have always wondered how my duckfooted stance would get along with wider rear end spacing.
I'm definitely not an authority in this matter but from looking at 2 bikes I have, one with the old 150mm and a newer bike with 148 it certainly seems like we could have easily made it work with less growing pains.
I rode some mid level 142 hub 29er wheels around 2015/16 on a Stache and a Following, and they felt just sketchy. I was checking for super loose spokes during the ride, making sure the hub bearings and axle wasn't loose, that the pivot was good and tight on the Following. When I made it back to the shop, went through the wheel and checked the spokes with a tensiometer and they were both fine. I was maybe 235 at the time and so that is likely why it was so noticable. I now run a 465 gram alloy Kinlin rim on my current boost equiped bike and do not notice any significant wheel flex.
Most mid level bikes don't come with cheap AliExpress carbon rims and Bitex hubs though, so I don't see your point. By mid-level wheels I was talking about stuff like a RF Aeffect wheel set, a Stan's S2 wheelset, any wheel set that a $2500 to $5500 bike would come equiped with or something similar that.
Your proposed carbon wheelset would not do exactly what you think though to combat lateral wheel flex. Stiff carbon rims tend to deflect laterally differently, rather than a lot less, they would be less likely to fail due to lateral flex though. The way a stiff rim like that deflects is the whole rim moves not just the section closest to the lateral load. In road bikes this manifests itself as rim brake rub when standing up out of the saddle. It was never a real problem before super stiff deep section carbon rims, and is why pro road riders often have custom versions of wheelset with higher spoke count to combat this new type of wheel flex.
Unless you are saying that instead of boost being a 141/148 hub that it should have been a 143/150 hub. That would have been nice too, I think it would have been even nicer than what we got since it would be another 1mm of flange spread on both sides, but it would have confused people since their 150 dh hubs wouldn't have fit at all.
A 157 hub is the exact same as a 150 hub but with longer end caps. The only difference is that the 157 hubs longer end caps go into the 3.5 mm slots on the frame to make installing the rear wheel more easy.
The 20 mm axles kept going though untill the end of 100 mm forks, you could still get a fox 36 with 20 mm axles into the mid teens. They were kinda sketchy though as you had to be super careful with your torque on the pinch bolts as they really liked stripping out. I think in general the castings on the 20 mm forks were likely more finicky to make, so maybe that was another reason the switch was finalized once we went to boost forks.
If suddenly all bikes with 36/ Pikes and burlier switched back to 20 mm there would be the exact same, or possibly much more, amount of uproar about old wheels not being compatible with the new bike they just bought.
As far as switching back to 20mm front it might raise some hackles but I think it's the right thing to do and perhaps company's could do something like Marzocchi did with their DJ fork and make it a 20mm but with 15mm adapters available.
The 150/157 hub is 15 mm wider than a 135/142 hub however, and boost sits in the middle at 6 mm wider than the 135/142 hub that had been around since at least the 80's.
I for one would not want the hassle of and potential failure point of adapters on my front axle. I also wouldn't be to upset if we went to 20 mm x 110 boost front hubs as the standard for all bikes. I, however have no say in the matter.
142x12 has been the common rear axle standard on gravel bikes and road bikes for a while now as well.
1. You have lazy engineers who want to use 157 so they don't have to worry about driveside chainstay clearance (Specialized made their Enduro 29er in 2013 with 430mm chainstays with a 142 rear axle, just sayin)
2. You have a Gearbox and so why not have a narrow rear hub
3. You have an inverted fork so you need a proprietary front hub/axle system
Please, engineers, product managers, company owners. Leave it at Boost. Don't iterate on it. There are no measureable performance benefits unless bike geometry and materials dramatically change. Don't do this to us.
As for the whole discussion about wheel stiffness, I won't say I can notice the difference simply as I haven't tried. I ride 26" wheels (currently with a 142x12 rear axle) and it works well for me. Strong enough is important obviously. But as for stiffness, not everyone agrees do we? I thought a bit of lateral flex is good for tracking. After all as we ride a flat or off-camber turn, the irregularities are (partly) lateral which your rear suspension (if you have that) won't deal with. Lateral wheel flex (and maybe frame flex) is what helps there. And your tires of course but luckily these will be there regardless of your hub standard. So yeah sure if your wheel feels too noodly then apparently it is a bit much. But if it just makes you insecure (in that your wheel might be broken or improperly tensioned) you may need to get over that if the ride is otherwise good. Just like some people may need to get used to their suspension initially. Then of course if you're going to accept noticeable lateral flex it would be nice if it is equal both sides and I am not sure whether you can have that if you have inequal spoke tension between both sides (because of wheel dish). My current rear wheel probably has that (Syntace MX35 with asymmetric rim and different spoke gauges left and right) but my other (self laced) wheel probably doesn't (DT 350 hybrid, DT Alpine III and Spank Spike) though I can't tell whether it tracks better in left or in right hand corners. And whether it is the wheel or just me...
Why is it so weird to have 2 standards for 2 different disciplines. It seems like being mad that a fat bike has a wider BB, or that there are derailleurs with different length cages.
Demos had offset rear wheels though didn't they, so although it had a more narrow hub it had better bracing angle on the drive side. I didn't actually know that there were many dh bikes with 148 rear wheels, especially with 29" wheels. It is strange that they decide to run those when there has been a standard around for over a decade for dh bikes, perhaps they just prefer it. Just looked up the Norco HSP Aurum and they run a 142 on the 27.5 bikes and a 148 on the 29ers. That is pretty interesting, would be cool to talk through their thoughts on that and why not 148 and 157, or even just 157 all around. Maybe boost is enough for everything, but then it also does seem like 157 works great too, so why not let the engineers and customers choose?
I know a few companies have done special 7speed DH hubs, where they move the flange over quite a ways and then you put the first 7 gears of a 10 speed cassette on. I think E13 and hope at least did some like that.
I grew up drinking beer from stubbies. That was s standard.
No you dont. You dont want to spend months testing hundreds of configurations and set ups following rigorous scientific protocols, to then spend tens of thousands of dollars on custom carbon frames built just for you that you can throw away after a season because by then something marginally better exists. And then repeat the whole process from the start. Because thats what you would have to do to get "the best bike full stop".
You just want a bike that you think is not limiting your enjoyment or speed, no matter how far from the theoretical optimum it is.
Why do I still come here..?
20mm could have prevented all the front end of bike woes.
Regardless this has nothing to do with 20 mm axles, which cannot change wheel stiffness.
Personally I'm sick of bent 15mm axles an twisted lowers
A radial wheel is the stiffest laterally as well as vertically. With a disc brake bike it also wouldn't work at all because it would just wind itself up.
Boost front ends can run wider tyres. When Boost came out the 'bike industry' decided that we all wanted to run 2.6 - 3" tyres and therefore Boost became the standard. As I've already said I'd love to be proven wrong but I'm pretty confident that anyone running 2.5" or smaller tyres on a Boost front end will have a bike that is both heavier and with more flex than if it was the old 100mm standard.
Especially on 29ers though the lateral stiffness plays a big role. It is pretty easy to feel the difference in the lateral stiffness when turning left vs right of a wheel that has 3x both sides and a symmetric rim, even with a stiff rim this flex is still there. It was much more noticable with non high end 29er wheels with 135/142 hubs.
I currently use that set up with a 460 gram alloy 29er rim and have no problems on my trail bike, even though I'm quite heavy lately, at quite a bit over 200 lbs.
radial wheels wind up with rim brakes too, lol. it's why it's only used on super light duty road race applications where single grams matter. if a radial wheel is the best both laterally as well as vertically, then why don't you see it on MTBs? the answer is they aren't strong enough....they would explode on the first 2' drop. they don't have enough spokes taking the impact.
They are not used in more rim brake applications because they ride harsh(because they are so stiff) and it is a lot harder on all the components since you are trying to pull the spoke out of the hub flange in the direction it is weakest and there is a lot less flex in the system to spread the loads around a bit better. You tend to see more broken spokes, cracking around the spoke holes in the rim and more hub flange failures on radial wheels, especially when there are fewer spokes used. I used to see people run radial spokes on MTB'S a lot back in the early and mid 90's, but it was stupid because of all those reasons.
Anyway, clearly I have not been saying that people should be running radial on disc brake MTB's it would break right away.
2x/3x though is a great way to build a wheel that is more equal in lateral stiffness and also evens up the spoke tensions. I have personally witnessed many wheelsets being built up that way and have exclusively built my own personal wheels that way for about a decade. It works great and is noticably more equal in lateral stiffness when cornering.
That said, wheel stiffness is different in the different directions. I'd say for lateral/axial stiffness it doesn't quite matter whether the wheel is laced radially or not as the spoke angle in the radial projection is the same either way. A smaller diameter wheel or higher rim (basically a smaller ERD), wider flange spacing, higher flanges, all would make for a stiffer wheel axially. This is what for instance Rohloff pride themselves on. As their hubs are inherently big, the positive effect is that their wheels are stiff laterally.
road radial wheels 100% wind up with rim brakes.
@insertfunusername: Ok, 2x/3x sounds interesting if it gives you a more even spoke tension. As said, I don't think I've ever build anything other than 3x/3x and thinking of it, I don't know really how to build 2x/3x. My source for my first wheel was Sheldon Brown, later I bought a book (digitally) by Roger Muson called the Professional Guide to Wheelbuilding. He often refers to Jobst Brandt, but I never looked into Jobst's own work. Do you have any instructions (a public source) on building 2x/3x? I might try it someday though at this point I don't really need to build a new wheel.
GXP where all load were concentrated on one bearing or 30mm axles in BSA/PF92 is arguably worse than DUB.
It's a typical article "this is the consensus so I will go against it and people will think I'm smart". There are so many standard changes that offered no benefits. Or standards that were later trumped by other standards. Not to mention useless standards that just make stuff worse like BB30 (seriously lets go back to threaded). Why did we for example go from 135/150 to 148/158? If we went with 1.5 why did we have to go back to taper?
Also "however, that the bike industry is forcing things on the customer that they have to buy against their will is cringeworthy." - This is the most stupid sentence of the whole article. If I want to buy a new frame I often can't transfer some of my old components. So how is this not being forced to buy new stuff?
Ummmm…
About 8 years ago I bought a new bike that was maybe a tiny bit behind the curve even for 8 years ago. But that didn’t matter when I went to buy the next new bike other than I couldn’t get much resale value. No one forced me to go through with buying a new bike, but a bike from 4 years ago absolutely rode better than my bike from 8 years ago. None of the parts would transfer, but who cares I was buying a whole new bike. If I hadn’t felt a new bike was necessary as far as obvious ride improvement, I’d have just stuck with what I had even if finding parts was beginning to get trickier- but not impossible by any means. So fine, no forcing involved.
However, fast forward to about a year ago. My now 3ish year old bike had a warranty failure and I had to get a new frame. I wasn’t going to get a whole new bike with new parts, just a frame to cover the defective frame. Cool, that’s fine and fair, I thought. But unfortunately, even within that time the manufacturer had made some “minor” changes- which makes sense since all bike companies seem to work off a 3 year development period and release an updated version of bike X. Most parts transferred just fine, but a handful didn’t. And that really sucked because I did sort of feel forced by them to then buy new parts I really didn’t need just to be able to work with the new standards they had chosen to use all just so my warranty replacement could even be used. That was a bummer man.
Like I get it, if I went to buy a new bike it’d be that way, like it was the time before. But the way that new standards affect warranty replacements is, to me, the real downside to ever changing standards cuz through no fault of my own I had to plunk down more money unexpectedly. I think the other small kick in the pants was that it wasn’t like the geo was super different, it was dumb crap like BB standards. My 8 year old bike rode like crap, the 4 year old bike rode amazing. This new one doesn’t ride any differently, but has different standards. Sometimes stuff like everyone moving over to a new more modern geo does make stuff ride better but requires new tech- like boost wheels. Sometimes switching from one BB standard to another, makes zero difference, other than maybe fewer creaks when climbing.
I get why people are pissed at changing “standards” but I also see the importance of change. Sometimes you get swept up in it. Sometimes you ride the wave all the way back to the beach.
The only reason you can't keep those components is that standards changed, and the fact is that many of those standard changes didn't improve anything.
Soo if the standard change didn't improve anything why did it happen? It happened because if you keep using your perfectly functional old components, and the industry can't make anything that offers advantages signifcant enough for you to buy their new parts, then the industry doesn't sell. But the industry wants to keep selling, and the way the push you into buying new stuff is by deliberatly making your old parts obsolete.
It's planned obsolescence. Go look it up. It's fun stuff.
Lol…
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebus_cartel
10 years ago we had 1.5 headtubes, 20mm front axels, 150mm rear spacing, 83mm bb, 29er wheels, wide seattubes and 10x on normal freehubs. Possibly, just possibly stealth routing for the dropper is new, but thats not even a standard
there. solved it!
@conoat: Okay, so... AXS droppers are not a new standard, in terms of frame design; but internally routed droppers still are.
As long as the frame doesn't have a solid BB shell (and even most metal frames don't), you can route the housing through the BB area and up the seat tube. Just make sure you haven't tossed out the plastic spacer between the bb cups or your dropper housing will wear through the crank axle.
* My own current bikes with a front derailleur all have full external routing.
* Some bikes that have internal routing have the exit point for the RD cable on the seat tube
* My last MTB that had a front derailleur had internal routing for a dropper
* Almost all bikes that have internal cable routing (excluding those that use an uninterrupted internal tube for the cable) also have an opening from the down tube to the BB and from the BB to the seat tube that would allow you to pass cable housing for a dropper, even if they weren't designed with that intent.
Now, we have at least 3 active O.L.D. widths, 3 cassette mounts, two different rotor mounts, and two active wheel diameters. So the chance of your buddy having a loaner is 1 to 50-billion.
Hahaha yes but there’s a cost to progress too!
Get off my lawn!! ::shakes fist::
At the time, when v-brakes still had the lion's share of the brake market and hydraulic brakes cost mucho dinero, the Avid mechanicals were a real eyeopener and they were budget friendly.
I think Henry is on point with his opinion. Without brand "trying" different standards, we would be rocking wooden balance bikes. Might have been kinda cool when I think about it... Anyway. It's innovation, and without it bikes would be boring. Changing standard are not uniqe for the bike biz. It's hapening all over. To move forward. Companies take advante of course, but that's how you make money.
Shimano, Magura, TRP, Hope, etc.....203
200?......Sram.
so the actual bitch here should be, "why in the f*ck is Sram stuck on 200mm when the industry consensus is clearly 203?"
About all they have that’s cross compatible is tyres and grips.
No one in the moto world is complaining about why they can't fit a Yamaha YZ450F exhaust on their new KTM 300 XC-W.
As I say, even the same model of brembo calliper have minor differences.
Meanwhile, in MX land the manufacturers actually support the bikes for quite awhile after they are sold. In MTB land, finding a non-taper 160mm fork and some quality 26" rims for an all-mountain bike was impossible only a few years after they went to 100 (and then 110).
More often than not, the consumer has way more power than he realises
Indeed, the vast majority of bike consumers don’t even know to ask what standards the bike they’re considering uses, or what impact to economic maintenance it may have in the future. That doesn’t mean educated consumers who understand the consequences have to silently accept the results, or that we should stop trying to publicize the drawbacks.
Many of these did have tangible benefits (like tapered steerer tubes), but hardly all of them.
You can still get all of the above in all previous sizes from a range of suppliers - none of them are obselete in any way other than the mind.
I can still get 9spd chains, hg wheels, small rotors and all sorts of headsets and bb’s - no issue at all.
Of course 31.8mm bars will still exist, that’s a choice not a standard and we can still get almost all old drivetrain parts right back to 9spd easily.
Is this issue in reality or just perceived?
We got it good now, even if it is annoying that you may buy a frame where your old wheels will need a new rear hub.
Probably the worst examples.
For all other headtubes, just buy the correct headset from the huge number of brands that sell them.
Remember what it’s like riding on top of your bike rather than inside of it? Sliding around corners with 2.2” tires at 30psi? Jumping with 26” wheels that don’t weigh 2lbs each? It’s a blast
There is a resurgence of retro bikes right now, and people especially love those tiny, think head tubes on steel frames. They look so cool with straight 1 1/8 steerers.
I do remember those days of being perched on top of a bike. It was still fun, but man did it get better when this 6'4" guy had bikes that actually sorta fit me. I've always thought that for shorter people, older bikes always felt like they do for me now as far as fit. It will take another decade I think before people realize that gravel bikes shouldn't be wildly short when they are supposed to fit someone my height.
But yea, 2008 is an old bike, like it or not and you have to expect things to move on a little, or are you still using a phone from 2008 too whining that the new iPhone charger doesn’t fit?
At some point though manufacturers have to stop making parts for museum pieces as only people with a fetish for retro gear will want to keep them going.
Honestly right now I’m more looking at new seals for the E150 fork, I took it apart recently and the damper/spring cartridges still function like they’re supposed to, it just pours oil out of the fork every ride and I’ve really been losing hope on finding a used 26” 1 1/8” fork that doesn’t cost the same as a brand new freaking Pike
www.enduroforkseals.com/products/front-suspension/enduro-rwc-hy-glide-wiper-seals/EFS-HG-E150-UPGR.html
Well if standards don’t actually change and availability is forever, then you really have no argument against old bikes right? This changing standards problem isn’t even a problem then if everything is fully available forever
Also I’m kinda just sick of everybody on Reddit saying any bike that’s more than 3 years old, or any 2 year old bike that’s even described as old, is immediately swarmed with “no bro that bike is garbage, new geometry bro” regardless of whether the bike is even old geometry. Bikes have had 63° head angles for over 15 years, long bike riding position has disadvantages too, and you sure look like an idiot when you dismiss a bike for “bad old geometry” when it’s at most 1 degree or centimeter more conservative than bikes being sold in 2020, when some high level bikes are still being sold with the exact same geometry. If you’re gonna argue a point, you gotta look it up first or you just look like a jackass
With a Google search it looks like the seals are available in at least the US, Europe and New Zealand. I didn't click on it but it appeared that you could still get entire rebuild kits for the air spring and damper as well.
Old stuff is generally well supported, you can't just walk into a mom and pop bike shop in North Dakota and find the super specific part from a bike made a dozen years ago with proprietary parts, but you can usually still find the parts with a little work.
Do people seriously want old straight steerer Lyriks?
I totally have one of those hanging in my garage cuz it felt weird to throw it away. You find me an interested party at $700 I will totally give you a finders fee.
You argued otherwise because you are upset that it’s hard to keep your relic working, that’s not because of changing standards, that’s pure development - things come on a long way in 13 years and we don’t all want to ride old scrap with leaking forks.
Those New Zealand seals are custom made, not supported by specialized
I mean yeah I know people in small parts manufacturing that can make things, I even had to get a tool made by my friend to properly rebuild the E150, 35mm rockshox foam rings fit in it, I found similar bath oil to use sure, but making your own parts and rigging up an almost-ideal replacement is not the same as manufacturer support. Who’s to say that New Zealand site doesn’t cut out that kit tomorrow?
And I wasn’t complaining about not finding seals I was just saying that seems more realistic than finding a suitable fork (that will never see another bike) at a price I’m willing to pay
They are selling an Enduro brand, set of seals for your fork. Enduro seals were all the rage for quite a long time, as they were thought of as an upgrade compared to the stock seals equiped on Fox and Rockshox products. I personally thought that they did seal a little better, but caused a slight amount more striction, but they are great seals.
Enduro is the brand that makes pretty much every bearing in every suspension bike. These are not weird aftermarket, might fit sorta parts.
You were complaining about not being able to use your fork and here is a seal that will get it running and likely work as well as, or perhaps even better than the original parts. If you are only willing to use the exact oem part, on an unsupported 13 year old proprietary fork.... Than yeah you are out of luck.
And how are Enduro products a fab shop in NZ exactly?
I suppose you only run genuine OEM brake pads too? Genuine specialized parts all round on that retro bike of yours?
Again, I was never complaining that I couldnt get seals, I’m complaining that used straight steerer big-travel forks for sale are so incredibly rare that you can get away with charging as much as a brand new 2020 fork. Why are they so rare? Standards changed. Does a 3/8” thinner lower headset cup make a bike garbage? Not in my experience, that 26” bike kicks ass, I even set a top 10 strava at a bike park after using it twice that day (after like 7 years of never using that bike), the 29” hardtail and 27.5” 180mm enduro bike couldn’t match it that day. More exciting riding too with all the slipperiness, and of course jumping with 26” is god damn incredible
Homie I don’t care about the seals I said this 3 times
I don't understand the complaints about not being able to find stuff to keep older bikes running. I can still rebuild my 1st gen Answer Manitou fork, but I do understand that I can't walk into my LBS and buy the parts off the shelf for that one part of my 28 year old bike. I probably could buy every other part though except for the super weird seatpost diameter that it came with.
I love that you keep calling it retro
What was your first high-level mountain bike? I went from Walmart shit to 2005 Fuji hardtail (from mom) to 2008 specialized rockhopper (from dad), to 2008 enduro SL frameset + 2011 parts (paid/built by me) and then settled on that bike for the next 8 years before going 2019, 2020 and 2022 bikes. That enduro SL still gets ridden, and it still has clear advantages over my ‘19-‘22 bikes in some situations. At what point does the bike you are riding stop being the latest and greatest and start becoming retro vintage trash? Shirley you have a threshold year and you’re not just throwing baseless opinions around right?
Odd guy, enjoy riding that old turd of yours.
The seals are from a reputable manufacturer and a great distributor that many bike shops use a source for parts, so you could probably order them from your LBS. They are less than $40 so not a big commitment.
You can buy many forks new that will also fit your old headset, but not top of the line stuff. If you put in the effort you could probably find a Fox 36 or RS Lyric from the early teens that will work. I have also easily been able to find either dual crown that will need to be shortened (which is not weird and will only make it feel better and be stronger), or single crown options for under $300 on the PB buy/sell. There is nothing keeping you from getting that bike running great again.
It’s that easy, all rockshox or fox needed to do was make a couple sets of straight steerer crowns, they wouldn’t sell a lot, but they’d have them. MRP actually does this, I reached out to them once I heard, but they don’t offer it in the 150mm travel area
I asked what year was your first high level bike from
You are the one that is saying that you can't find a fork to fit your bike that is a reasonable price, or even a rebuild kit for your fork. Well I was able find many forks in 2 minutes of looking, for under $300, and an upgrade seal kit for your proprietary fork in 1 minute. I never said that you shouldn't fix a bike you like, I just pointed out that there are a ton of great ways to get the bike working again. You seem to just want to dismiss all options and then what.... complain about how you can't get your bike to work again, because there are more modern options available?
The freehub changes were needed to fit smaller than 11 tooth cassettes, which are pretty essential with wide range 1x systems, and obviously Shimano would never use a SRAM design, so we stupidly have 2 designs for that, but luckily you can use either brand of cassette on a given drivetrain, so not too big of a deal.
Was not the point of the conversation.
Hope bulbs
Not saying there's a big market for higher end stuff, but there's a hell of a lot of old bikes still getting ridden, and until very recently indeed through axles were non-existent on mid range hardtails and below.
Like I said, maybe things are different where you are, but here there seems to be a large variety of new wheels and rims like you are looking for.
What does he do when it breaks? He has to machine his own stuff or buy 2nd hand because it’s unreasonable to expect Porsche to stock, much less, spec the same parts used in a 197x Carrera on their cars forever.
Like of course nobody cares what parts are on their bike if their plan is to buy a complete bike and ride it until it breaks or they sell it.
The question of standards simply isn’t for people who don’t work on their bike, standards make upgrading easier and more likely
For example, “boss, look, these torx head M5x15 bolts are 5% off, let’s use these instead of the hex head ones. Order ten thousand!”
- 30.9 and 31.6 seat tubes being more standard, meaning more bikes can run droppers. In the mid/early 2000s a lot of bikes still had wacky seat tube IDs.
- Bearings and pivots - it's surprisingly easy to find replacement bearings and pivots for full suspension bikes, even from sources outside of the manufacturers.
- 2.4 tires across the board, with 2.6 being fairly common too. It seemed like for awhile there you either rode lightweight skinny tires for XC or big fat heavy ones for AM, and the only way to get the durable tires lighter was to run a narrower size. Now you can get World Cup-level XC tires in 2.4 widths, and fairly lightweight 2.6 options, as well as burlier tires in 2.3-2.6 sizes.
- Tire clearances - Say what you will about the "Plus" movement of 2015, but it does have lingering benefits in that most bikes, and most forks can fit 2.6 tires, and in some cases up to 3".
Unwelcome changes:
- There are still entirely too many bottom bracket standards, and it sucks to buy a new frame only to find out that you'll need some weird bottom bracket size and compatible crankset to go with it. Road bikes are burdened with this even more than MTB.
- 157 threatens to give us a new hub standard that isn't as easy to adapt as 142-148 was with Boost adapters. Unlikely gravel and road will move to 157.
- Trunnion Mount is cool, but there are still a lot of manufactures who aren't utilizing it.
I do agree with you on some other variations being narrowed down. Seatpost diameters indeed. Brake mounts now primarily PM (flat mount should die real soon). Back in the days you had the Boxxer mount, IS front, IS rear and also PM (and of course a couple of ways to mount your rim brakes).
My irk is bottom brackets. First think I look for in a frame is has it got a threaded BB that I can just screw in a set of external cups and go riding.
I’ve got all the tools, drivers and bearing pullers for doing just about any internal / press fit BB and can do them with my eyes shut. But I prefer external BB.
Saying that only 3 of my 6 bikes have external BB the others, I had no choice about as other advantages out weighed my BB preference.
Definition of standard:
_a level of quality or attainment.
_something used as a measure, norm, or model in comparative evaluations.
I think we should call them what they are: dimensions. just dimensions. period
Regarding standards I do work in a bike shop and I can see every day that most customers either have no concept of industry standards at all (and subsequently buy the wrong stuff online and come to us for advice) or they have entrenched themselves on online forums and preach the gospel of the real "sensible" standard of their choice... I probably too belong to the later half
...You new here?
Hopes pedal for instance, I applaud that they have gone their own route, not using what would be considered the industry “standard” Shimano cleat. They believed their design was better, allowed for more flexibility in application, and worked within their company philosophy.
The comments berating Hope for going their own route was surprising to me, and the idea that they were “forcing” someone to now adopt a different design into their lives. Hope cant possibly be sitting in their dark lair, fingers crossed thinking”I’ve got those suckers now”. They are making a decision to go against popular opinion, in an attempt to improve something they believe can be improved upon, likely sacrificing sales of Shimano loyalists along the way.
Pivot, Knolly would be the same with their adoption of the 157 rear hub spacing, they are actively sacrificing sales to provide something they believe is better, they believe it is BETTER.
We are so lucky to be riding around on expensive toys in the woods like a bunch of kids, maybe we can learn from those kids out there blissfully riding around.
For example, why did boost spacing ever become a thing?! The “new” super-boost is a preexisting spacing. Should have just skipped the intermediate step.
Or……now that even XC bikes rock droppers, get a standard along the lines of the ninepins system across the board.
The biggie as I see it is gearboxes. The current options have some good features, and 12 speed (either brand) is pretty fussy. If the efficiency gap can close AND shifting can be more intuitive/ergonomic, it’s the future. But let’s have a universal mounting setup for all the brands to use for their gearboxes.
When every product you own needs something specific that is hard to find, and you have to find the best brand/model for this particular thing for every damn thing in your life, it gets complicated. And most of them time, you have to bring said product to the dealership/store to get it fixed, or just throw it away. It costs more money in the long run (which goes to manufacturers), and it's bad for the environment. This can't fo on forever.
I don't want bikes to become like Apple products and other things that you can't fix after a few years even if they'd still be perfectly fine. From what I can tell, that's something Henry Quinley doesn't seem to mind at all or even wishes for. In fact, reading this article, it sounds like anyone who doesn't think like that is just a complainer and that everyone should just accept status quo and buy anything that companies sell because they know what's good. What people on the forums/comments are doing when they're complaining about new standards is keeping our bike industry as far as possible against planned obsolescence.
I like also propietary stuff but they go out of stock quiet fast.
quiet complex situation.
Having built and rode wheels with straight pull bladed spokes i did love them just for the looks alone but when i broke a spoke on holiday i really struggled to find a local bike shop with a spare that fit, they also cost me alot more to build due to the bladed spokes, my latest wheels are J bend and round spokes for simplicity but i do miss the look of the straight pull.
Look at all the frames that now come with at least 1 bottle mount inside the front triangle. The PB community spoke loud enough, and clearly consumers spoke with their wallets...forcing brands to revamp designs to allow 1 bottle to be mounted inside the frame for their future designs.
Where do I get fat bike tires?
www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/shimano-fh-mt401-center-lock-rear-hub-135mm-959770
I truly enjoy playing with geometry (yes, seat angles can become slacker but not everything is about the climb), changing things like; changing to a smaller rear wheel size, adding a bigger wheel size to the front, longer forks, shock offset bushings, angle headsets to, shorter stems, wider bars. I enjoy cheating the system to gain the handling characteristics that the older frame did not have.
Im all for actual improvements but half the time I think things are updated purely for the marketing hype.. not for the actual gained benefits (despie what the article says).
Constantly trying to force redundancy with new standards does not help our environment... where we shouldnt always be tring to buy the next new thing... we should be trying to fully utilise what we have until it is truly not serviceable anymore as the frame has truly reached its fatigue life-span.
Says the guy who never did multi-day alpine trips in the middle of nowhere, along with other 10 folks. When you're on your own standards are important. So you don't have to haul a monowheel trailer for all the different spare parts. Just a couple spokes of different lengths, a couple tires, derailleur cables, a couple of brake pad sets, a chain and *maybe* a rear brake.
Also, what a great way to cast your sympathy to people on lower income countries who might not be able to find spares for stupid/exotic components.
Now we love the modern MTB which only happened due to giving up these "standards" and experimenting.
And damn, that means that however good bikes are today, we all must be having 50% less fun than riders of the 2040's will be. So I guess most of us are barely having a good time, and anyone that thinks they are should take a good look at themselves and work out how they arrived at such an absurd conclusion.
Or, perhaps, humans are just adaptable? And riders now have about as much fun as riders in the 1990's did?
And perhaps if we weren't so frantically busy with what are largely marginal improvements just to keep the economy alive, and if all other sectors of production had the same ethos, we could all have a 3 or 4 day weekend and ride twice as much? Bet that would make a difference.
Yes they are. Ever occur to you that making money means driving up bike sales, which is the literal way bike companies make money?
So, yes, innovation is good but don't lose the forest for the trees.
9mm hole with no threads, bolts on from the back.
When booking a holiday, everyone has their own standard as well and some accommodations survive, some not. Some get rich, some die.
There is no standard that I am aware of in the cranks on a hardtail that would make it incompatible with your Enduro bike unless it has square taper cranks or a BMX setup.
And on the road side, not content to simply adopt existing MTB standards from XC bikes... they've had 1.25 to 1.125 tapered steerer tubes and instead of the readily available 15x100 thru-axle fork standard... oh no... gotta go with 12x100...a size that ONLY one Mountain bike brand had ever used (Manitou, way back in 1995 and only on the EFC-DH forks). And yet they were perfectly happy to adopt the 12x142 rear thru-axle spacing standard.
I would agree, but this was a direct call to Mavic. I called to see if it was a replaceable part, and that's what they offered. This was nigh on to 20 year ago, folks were still pissy about "EW! Proprietary!"
Brilliant Company Designer:" 14?!? Ridiculous! We need to develop a new standard to covers everyone's use cases! Yeah!"
New Situation: There 15 competing standards for a specific bike product.
As soon as the consumer needs or wants a new bike, they really don't have much choice around adopting new standards or maintaining compatibility. When I bough my previous MTB, if you wanted a high end bike it was 12/142 rear and 15/100 front. I had a nice set of wheels for that bike that were light and plenty stiff enough, but even if I had stayed with 27.5 it's impossible to get a good non-boost frame now. When I bought my most recent FS 29er, I didn't choose to adopt xD over Microspline - short of spending a couple of thousand dollars more for the model with XTR, or buying a completely different bike. Let alone choosing which BB 'standard' it used. When my wife upgrades her MTB (as soon as we can actually get a bike in her size) at least she'll be on 12 sp boost as well, and hopefully 29er.
Technically that is still a choice.
This is what has happend with the wheels standards. I like my DH and FR bikes with 26" wheels. I am not against bigger wheels (I do own single speed 29er), but I like my bikes. I do not need new bikes, I do not need bigger wheels. The only thing that will force me to buy a new bike (and waste recources, since I normalny wound not buy it) is that there are no DH/FR rims, and tyres are dissapearing quickly. The industry decided to flip the bird on everyone who do not want a new bike. Do I have a choice? Yes, I can drop cycling or I can adjust to modern standards. Do I like it? No.
A lot of my riding buddies and I did actually standardize our drive-trains to Shimano 12spd this last year, and between us we have enough parts to replace a couple of entire drives plus enough consumables to keep us going for at least a year or two more. And that, right now, was pretty smart.
Also headsets should all be 1.5, that way you can install any fork, angleset you like. People will always use spacers anyway........
Brake caliper standards.... what was really the problem with IS???? Someone couldn't endo???? Now with flat mount it's like....f....... one more stupid standard to save 50grm/each end?
And let's not end with the 31.8mm/35mm handlebar issue, as if it is a dramatic change for the worse.
24/26/27.5/plus/29 I don't see as evolutions, just different wheel sizes, with it's plus and minus issues.
*cough* Anything with Brain written on it *cough*
I sold my Santa Cruz VP Free, with its dated geometry and 26" wheels, and bought a YT Tues. I kinda miss the VP Free. Im probably faster on the Tues, but the VP free was more fun.
The new standards being pushed at the time told me that I would be better off on a newer bike with its slacker headtube, longer reach, and bigger wheels. I've found that not to be true.
And now even my Tues is dated, with its short reach, small 27.5 wheels, and lack of high-pivot suspension. But will I really be happier with a Supreme DH? Dunno...
Sure, the bike industry gives us the parts we need to enjoy our hobby, which we're all very passionate about. At the end of the day though, they're still corporations, and their bottom line still matters (some are owned by publicly traded companies, in which case it's even moreso). They don't want you keeping your King hubs + i9 hoops for 10 years. They don't want you swapping over your venerable old Fox 36 forever, or your favorite dropper, etc, they don't want to sell you frames only.
Yes, some of the new standards really do push forward bike technology, and people complain about even those... it definitely gets into overkill territory when it comes to whining- but there's a lot out there which isn't actually progressive, and I think people are right to question them. The bike industry has earned a little bit of doubt when it comes to "look at this feature which you can't use any of your old parts on or with ever again, which boosts stiffness by 3.67%!".
This stuff doesn't have to be "against our will" to be stupid. Maybe you're sick of the hyperbole in PB comments which say as much, but to meet that with your own rant in the article- that ain't it. There is a measure of new "standard" creation which is, without any doubt, predominately a driver for sales.
We had a huge amount of standards flux during the past ten years, but things seem to have settled down now.
Nailed something there. Most of what we call "standards" are really "specifications". Until they are codified, ratified, and recorded by a standards body, they're nothing more than the specs that must be met in order to guarantee interoperability. Many of these "specs" have become "de facto standards", but that's still not the same as a true registered "standard".
But all of them have, multiple times, stuck with inferior things.
Just a couple examples. Why did it take so long for 29ers to take off if 26 turned out to be so inferior that it disappeared overnight? Why do we still have skinny little stem/steerer interfaces, instead of the superior 1.5 straight or Overdrive (are those the same?)? How the hell did QR15 become the norm over 20mm axles, even on 190mm enduro forks that are way closer to 200mm DH forks than the 100mm XC forks that they share an axle with?
I am not blaming bike companies every trend and standard however useless it is.
I am blaming you. Yes you heard that right!
It media hype that make some people at some companies do stupid things.
New thing gets announced.
Someone spreads the word (looking at you
Some gets nervous about not being able to sell stuff anymore.
Companies change stuff to also get the media push.
Result: A few month after buying bought a super expensive frame
The pace of this is getting faster and faster because you need something to write so your website gets clicks an money.
It’s getting so fast that by the time you roll a new bike into your garage it’s already outdated. And yes that matters.
How about replacing something if it breaks?
I had it happen twice in recent years that i broke a crank.
Both occasions i got a new replacement crank from the company selling the crank for free. Both occasions i had to spend a couple of hundred of dollars on bottom brackets chain rings and so on just to get riding again with no difference in performance…
Yes i get grumpy when i read about bb137, wouldn’t you too?
What really annoys me though is the claims by the marketing folks that X or Y is better because it is stiffer when in reality the engineering and physics don't stack up. Try a DUB pressfit bracket, particularly in a carbon frame, and you will very quckly discover that the hype doesn't stack up in the real world. I'm not picking on SRAM here, albeit that DUB is particularly bad, as every component manufacturer is equally guilty.
If you look after your own bike you will know how hard it is to source replacement parts over 2 years old. Try doing it as a proffesional when the conversation often goes "your chainring(s), freehub, rims, brake seals, etc. are worn out but we will have to replace the crankset, hub, wheel, entire brake etc. as you can't get that asymetric bolt pattern or whatever anymore".
As most people can't afford to replace their bike every 2 years. The lack of standards and rapid parts obselescence is simply a way to drive increased maintenance costs to everyone.
I would find it acceptable if standards had evolved as improvements but it does not really seem that way somehow, they are more like fads than anything else. Pros running 12 gears but 3 rotor bolts and moto foam instead of a top cap, incredible! Mullet bikes are a stupid idea, one year later every brand is selling one.
You can hardly find a 8 and 9 speed chain in local bike shops, the same goes for cassettes. Tough 26" rims are not that easy to come by in a desired variety, the same goes for tires. Nothing is really pushed on us, we are getting pushed out of the "hobby".
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj0uBQ7j5c4
BBs are the perfect case study for this discussion:
I do agree with you that the old days of different spindle length suuuuucked- but the external bearing 73 mm threaded BB fixed that very unpractical problem. You had compatibility with 73mm & 68mm shells, and many crank OEMs matched up with Shimano's bb standard- so several old standards killed with a single new one. This is the type of advancement we needed. Press fit BBs... just served to re-introduce new standards to something that had practically been solved, the type of "advancement" we don't need.
In my job I deal with API (American Petroleum Institute) specs very often- it gives a clear outline and design guide regarding lots of sub-systems I work on. Major players in industry have input to this spec (both on the equipment manufacturers and the equipment users), and it's frequently revised to keep current best practices updated. This could certainly be a thing in the bike industry.
It's not easy, but ultimately it would be better for the customers, rather than doing things willy nilly. I appreciate your discussion, have an upvote, bub.
It is pretty awesome how cross compatible parts are in the bike industry, and I am really glad it works that way.
All driven by corporate sales targets, not improvement of the product.
Then buy a Banshee and get on with life!
(Best groupset ever. By a lot)
3 sizes of MTB hubs, but each has a few flavors.
135/142
141/148
150/157
f*ck you Henry
f*ck you Henry
basically: buy -> ride -> recycle
All fine and good to say buy, ride, recycle, but what about the person who buys there new multi £k bike only to come and sell it a bit later and find out it’s worth squat because of it’s got either and out of fashion standard or one that was only used for that year before being abandoned.
That’s what people get pissed and fed up about.
but you forgot re-use. And re-using parts is easier when the dimensions don't change (or should I say "evolve") all the time
You can use bb adapters to reuse cranks
You can use headtube adapters
So it is not that hard