Review: BMB Reverse Raise Stem - The Stem That Wants to Change Mountain Biking

Dec 19, 2023 at 8:48
by Henry Quinney  

It seems every few years we're due a hot new take on what a stem should be, and not without good reason. Stem, handlebars and cockpit dimensions can have such a huge sway over our body position, riding style and technique that it's only natural they should be under a state of near-constant refinement.

There is one idea that just keeps on circling around - some kind of zero offset stem. Mondraker made waves around a decade ago with their Forward Geometry Concept and more recently Rulezman Suspension has brought their own take on the concept to market.

BNB RR Stem Details
• 35mm bar clamp, with 31.8 shim supplied
• 150mm base to bar centre
• Features a -15mm Reversed offset
• 7075 T6 Aluminum
• Black, gold or silver options
• Weight: 393 grams
• Price: $400 USD
bemorebikes.com

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Both of these options brought up points and concepts that very much go against the grain of how conventional frame and stem design works. What Mondraker took away in stem length they could be said to have added to the top tube, and Rulezman suggests something similar, only they say to consider sizing a frame up.

Of course, to say that either of these brands just made a stubby stem and called it a day would be wholly unfair - and they both have a whole slew of other refinements across the bike. Rulezman's reasoning again suggests longer rear-centers. This is something I'm a big fan of, and where I consider a possible new avenue of design springing up. They also suggest that the 10-20mm stems brought forward by Mondraker all those years ago were somewhat limited by other geometry dimensions not compensating for the inherent rearward weight bias that will come when you move to a stem that is both shorter and higher.

Both of these ideas are genuinely interesting, and I particularly enjoyed Seb Stotts's article above regarding Rulezman's offering. However, today the stem in question is from the American brand Be More Bikes, and we're focussing on their unique take on stem design, as well as questioning whether looks can be deceiving and it's not that different after all.

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Bold Looks, Yet Even Bolder Claims

The bicycle industry is full of passionate people, and Bronson Moore is one of those people. His stem isn't something he's thrown together in CAD, ordered a thousand units of and then happily moved on and forgotten about. Speaking to him at Sea Otter earlier this year it's clear he lives and breathes this weird and wonderful creation, and I have so much respect for people like him.

The stem looks wild, and its claims are similarly grandiose. BMB's copy breaks down the stem's features into two key areas - the raised height and the reversed offset. Let's start with the former.

In no particular order, some of the claimed benefits are that the stem puts a rider's arms at a better angle to the bars for descending with confidence, and encourages a bend at the elbow and more room to maneuver before your joints reach their maximum extension. The increased distance between arms and feet is said to grant more leverage over the bike, help you ride with more weight through your feet and less with your hands, and let you have a calmer and more comfortable attack position, similar to what you would have on a dirt bike.

In terms of the reversed offset, the copy states it can calm the floppy feeling of slacker bikes, give better control to let you load side knobs more effectively, and enable the rider to make tighter turns; the position is supposed to stop the front wheel from tucking in extreme steering angles and give you a greater feel for the front tire's contact patch, meaning you can carve the rear with more confidence.

These claims could prove to be game-changing. Unlike the other novel ideas challenging "stem convention," this stem doesn't claim to be part of a greater geometry concept. They state specifically that you don't need to upsize your bike.

So far, so radical.

photo

Can This Position Be Achieved With Conventional Components?

During testing, I became curious about how this actually compared to typical parts that we had in our Squamish HQ. I've ridden with high-rise bars before, and like so many of us I'm familiar with the limitations, as well as the gains. Sometimes, with an extremely tall front end going between the edges of the tire feels like crossing no man's land. There is balance, but transitions between turns feels somewhat vague, and the front can lack grip and small deflections can start to be a real cause of instability, especially if there isn't enough weight on the front wheel to keep it balanced and tracking straight and true. Being on the Y-axis isn't so bad, nor is being lent, but for me, the transition through the vertical plane can feel unsettled.

I fitted the rather imposing A76 bars from Answer which, it may surprise you, feature 76mm of rise. The bars put my hands at a very similar height to the BMB stem, if only 80mm further forward. To explore this further, I rotated the 40mm stem 180 degrees and refitted the bars. I went for a ride around the car park and two things were confirmed to me - I didn't particularly like it, and yet it felt oddly familiar.

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Climbing Impressions

Riding the stem puts you in a very unorthodox position, which is kind of the point. Immediately I thought of people I've met over the years who have back issues, and how this would be a great option to try. I also thought of people wishing to learn how to bunny hop and, again, I thought this would be a great teaching aid. I then went onto the trails and the endless possibilities of what this stem could do began to dry up.

How a bike fits is very subjective, and I'm not going to bore you by telling you that how a bike fits my body should be the single most concerning thing that you should happen across on Pinkbike today. However, I found that when riding along the flat and climbing this stem put me in a tiring position that I would find hard to hold over long days on the bike. Normally, I like to have a degree of support from my bones, joints and skeleton, and I don't believe we want our core to be engaged for great chunks of time. I like my elbows to be just back from locked, with my arms supporting my upper body even on bikes where the front is low.

The RR stem had me feeling more like I was in something similar to a plank position on gradual climbs, and a town-bike when things got steeper. I'm happy to admit I'm not a gym fiend, but I would say that I never normally struggle in terms of upper-body bike fitness. However, my triceps felt like they were constantly preloaded as they tried to keep the front weighted. When it got steeper or more technical, I felt like I had to practically put my chest on the stem. On the right climb, this stem not only lacks grip on the front, making you see-saw front and back as you search for traction, but is also downright exhausting.

Front-wheel lifts are a breeze, mind you, and if you're somebody that snagged their front on roots or square edges then this stem will help that.

photo
We fitted the stem with a 15mm rise bar for testing.

Descending Impressions

To ride this stem on a regular bike, in this instance a size large Transition Spire, felt completely out of sorts. I don't wish to be the bearer of bad news, but I don't think you can make such a massive change to how the rider's mass weights a bike and not treat it as a wholesale change.

Front grip was lacking, and searching for it could result in lunges and pushes. There was a balance to be found when leaning, but the window was small and ineffectual. More often what happened was you would find a lean angle that you could begin to trust, only for the front to begin to wash and the large spread between contact patch and hand would come around and punish you, and you could feel like your hands would lose a lot of height. This wasn't so much the sensation of handlebar flop, where you feel like you fall into the inside in some ways because the tire is gripping, but rather an enhanced and exaggerated version of the wheel washing, a bit like hitting a wet root while dragging your front brake.

photo
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In back to back runs I compared it to my standard 40mm stem and 35mm riser bar.

Preloading the front while braking was also a real challenge when grip was at a premium, as was that feeling of falling onto rails as you enter a turn, weighting the outside foot and modulating the grip with your inside hand.

On flat-out, straighter sections, it could feel okay - but only in the way a high-rise bar would, and it offers benefits with not only the trade-off you're familiar with, but a near turbocharged version of them because of the reverse stem. I'm a big believer in heavy-feet-light-hands but this takes the theory beyond an extreme that I am comfortable with.

I spoke with Bronson, and he seems accepting that this stem won't be for everyone and that it will suit certain frames, positions, and techniques more than others. He even explained that he wants to use this stem as a stepping stone to a more holistic concept, which sounds like a great idea to me. A balance between two points is the result of both placement and consideration, and I'm curious to see the frames that he eventually makes to account for the super high front of his stems. He's also working on a second version with slightly less height to hopefully fit a greater range of riders on a wider variance of frames.



Pros

+ Extreme height makes maneuvers easy
+ Stable on fast open terrain
+ Might make for a comfortable setup for some

Cons

- Fatiguing to climb with
- Feels unbalanced
- Hard to find consistent front grip



Pinkbike's Take

bigquotesI hope this isn't the end of BMB's venture, but I have too much respect for Bronson's passion not to offer my own opinion in unwavering terms. This item isn't for me. It doesn't flatter any one aspect of riding, and though there might be small areas of benefit this seems somewhat insignificant in the context of our whole bikes and what we expect of them.

The logical step in my mind would be to ring up a custom frame manufacturer to try and get something with a 500mm chainstay, on a reach that you know works, in order to try and explore this as a holistic concept, not an aftermarket upgrade. The main issue isn't the stem's dimensions, but rather the claims that it can be fitted to regular mountain bikes that haven't considered its dimensions in their design.
Henry Quinney


Author Info:
henryquinney avatar

Member since Jun 3, 2014
324 articles

372 Comments
  • 168 5
 I watched one of their sales guys riding around sea otter wipe out on a small grass hill because he had no control or front wheel grip while sitting straight up on an otherwise nice full sus mtb. I guess if you want to turn your mtb into a beach cruiser for cruising around town, or have half of your spine fused and can't bend over, it's great!
  • 34 7
 JUST SAY NO
  • 28 1
 But just think of how easy it will be to inadvertently wheelie when climbing uphill.
  • 30 3
 Is it April 1st?
  • 12 6
 Doesn’t the guy who invented it for himself actually win races on it though or am I thinking of someone else?
  • 13 4
 @thenotoriousmic: yes, I’ve raced with him.

@MI-Corey: I’m pretty sure it’s just Bronson and there is no team of sales people. No idea who you saw.
  • 13 5
 Interestingly it's never super advanced riders proposing crazy solutions.
  • 20 6
 @aphollis: you just proved this point he’s not in the pro class and he’s racing against like two or three other people and not winning every time lol. I’m sure he’s quick but he’s by far not fast.
  • 11 1
 This stem could be useful once 90mm cranks hit the market & saddle heights are jacked up another 3”
  • 1 0
 @Three6ty: my thought exactly!
  • 17 2
 This Vital RAW video of a BMB raised reverse stem in action at a DH race perfectly illustrates why it is such a terrible idea:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=1S4sLYNhiOE

Skip to 05:08
  • 4 1
 @Muscovir: wow. That looked bad!
  • 3 1
 @Muscovir: dude needs lessons.
He's far left dunning Kruger
  • 1 1
 @jessemeyers: so I looked him up and it was actually Bronson lol. I just assumed it was a sales guy because of the way he was talking to people.
  • 1 2
 @MI-Corey: He is on a Trek. Not sure what model, but it doesn't look like a lot of travel frame. But to be fair since he is on a shorter travel single crown with the reverse stem while pretty much the rest of the rider are on a longer travel double crown. He might be in over his head on that track with that short travel bike.

I do wonder what the difference in stack height of him using the reverse stem with a shorter travel single crown versus using a standard stem with a longer travel double crown. Maybe the stack height numbers are not out of whack as much as it may seem with how odd and extreme the product looks. Who knows?
  • 1 0
 @tacklingdummy: it's a slash
  • 4 0
 @tacklingdummy: nah that's src fontana can be ridden on a hard tail. The finish has a long flat sprint called the wall and one year a bit before downcountry was coined, the dude who was winning everything was doing it on basically an xc bike, surviving the 100ft of downhill then smashing the wall pedal and winning.
  • 2 1
 Why so close minded y'all? what happened to the 10 years ago attitude.. remember? It was all about bike size issues and complaining about no innovation! My point is... maybe this design doesn't suit mtb design as we know it. But wouldn't it be fun to see this on an oversized bike or front triangle (with a lot of reach) and steeper headtube angle to compensate the back sweep, hight so on. Think grim donut type stuff, sort of experimental stuff. Does everyone just want to stop trying new things and settle with where we're at?
  • 1 0
 @alexsin: Yes because Mtb design is at a pretty good spot... but what if the haters are wrong. Say five years from now you see Remi Meteleir on some prototype crazy looking thing... everyone will be like damn, next thing you know you need the new bike from TREK too fit there new Backsweep/Tall stem.
  • 1 0
 @MI-Corey: that makes more sense. I would just want to say in general that whatever we all think about the stem this is not some industry marketing effort to get more money. Bronson is just another passionate mountain biker like us. What’s different is that he took an idea he believed in and instead of just commenting on Pinkbike he made it a reality. And then he puts himself and his idea out there for all of us to criticize. Not every idea is going to work but grassroots innovation like this is something it seems like we could all agree is valuable to our community.
  • 1 0
 @jessemeyers: if he legitimately believes in it then I agree with your comment. It's up to the consumer to determine whether it makes sense for them or not. To me, I instantly laugh and walk away from such a product but a friend of mine who has three fused vertebrae may be interested in it and just have to deal with the downsides but be happy to be able to ride again. I look at this coming from racing BMX for years before getting into mtb. Get a bmx gate dialed in, or for this forums purposes, dual slalom. Then add 3" or 75mm to your bar height and do another gate. You'll quickly realize how much leverage you've lost with your inability to keep the front end down and maintain a body position conducive to putting power to the pedals. But again, to each their own and I really don't care what you put on your bike or how you set it up if you're having a good time and enjoying riding.
  • 1 0
 The company has a lot of YouTube videos talking positively about it including Seth's Bike Hacks. But the product is definitely on the extreme side of the spectrum like the Grim Donut.
  • 3 1
 @tacklingdummy: Seth is an actual idiot though.
  • 1 0
 @englertracing: He has some humorous takes on stuff, but I'm pretty sure does makes a ton of money doing that though.
  • 3 0
 @tacklingdummy: snookie also made a ton of money on TV.....
  • 1 0
 @englertracing: Fair assessment.
  • 130 1
 Part 2: Barelli does timed laps with it on the Grim Donut
  • 39 0
 Pinkbike, make this happen.
  • 4 0
 Except that this wouldn't work on most bikes with "regular" geometry.

There's only one use case for this stem: If a bike has a gigantic reach, long-ish chainstays and a tiny stack. Think Nicolai levels of long and slack. In any other case it would do terrible things to the position of the riders center of gravity.
  • 2 0
 @Muscovir: strangely enough I have my bars jacked High and I'm on an xxl G1.

However not even my bars are as high as that!
  • 92 1
 I've said it before, but god bless the weirdos who come up with new concepts and products. Without them we'd have no innovation, and their determination in the face of criticism is what drives our sport forwards.

That said, this thing is clearly whack for 99.99% of people.
  • 20 0
 Amen. I would never ride with this, but I'm glad it exists.
  • 11 0
 I so admire your ability to genuinely deliver a wonderful compliment which I completely agree with, then mosey into calling the product “clearly whack” which I also completely agree with. Carry on.
  • 3 0
 I have run into two people riding these stems in the last couple of months. I asked if they have any complaints and they both said that there was no downside and it solved all sorts of problems for them.

I don’t think it is for me, but then again I still like barends.
  • 83 2
 Let’s be honest, this went exactly how we all knew it would.
  • 51 1
 All we need now is Peter Verdone to chime in and enlighten us all.
  • 20 0
 @Superboost:
I met that guy on the trails @ Tamarancho. Man, that was an experience I won't forget...
  • 5 2
 @Superboost: Gotta admit, I'd love to ride one of his bikes.
  • 24 0
 @FatTonyNJ: I rode on. What I failed to realize is that it was basically THE most advanced bike in the world, albeit a steel bike (iirc) with a 9 foot wheelbase. I did learn that my current cf fs bike was light years behind this bike that Mr Verdone has created.
  • 10 25
flag BarryWalstead (Dec 21, 2023 at 9:52) (Below Threshold)
 Not quite... Go check out the Berm Peak review. Seth was kind of blown away by it.
  • 4 0
 @fruitcake: did he silently hand you a card with a link to his blog?
  • 2 0
 @BobbyHillbomb: Yep. It was quite the experience.
  • 10 1
 @BarryWalstead: ...have you seen him with it on any bikes since said video?

This is a product like altitude training masks, bro science. If it worked as hyped we would all be on them already, at least top racers would.
  • 7 0
 @Superboost: I’d love to hear an episode of the pinkbike podcast with Peter. I’m sure he’d have a lot to say.
  • 4 0
 @srsiri23w: "I’m sure he’d have a lot to say." That's kinda his thing, no?
  • 1 0
 @fruitcake: In which sense?
  • 6 0
 @fruitcake:
I’m pretty sure that guy doesn’t even make bicycles
www.peterverdone.com/i-dont-make-bicycles-i-make-weapons-systems
  • 1 0
 @real-skookum: I can guarantee you one thing real-skookum...i didn't dream it... i rode a bike that he claimed he had made...
  • 1 0
 @real-skookum: I didn't look at the link before I replied... Large portion sarcasm... noice
  • 3 1
 @fruitcake: Over the years, I've met a lot of children out on the trails. It's generally a positive experience and gives me a chance to teach them new ideas. For me, though, those that I meet that have no portfolio are forgotten almost instantly. Since I don't know who you are and have no recollection, it means that you have no portfolio.
  • 4 1
 @pvd666: Does Salsa Cycles know you took the Warbird name?
Also, the Pacenti P-Dent is a way more elegant solution to what you are going for with that bar and stem.

(disclaimer: I do not have a portfolio)
  • 3 1
 @ReformedRoadie: My first Warbird was named for the Romulan Warbird starship in the STCU. It was produced in 2010. If anything, Salsa copied me 8 years later.

www.peterverdone.com/wiki/index.php?title=PVD_WarBird_SS

A Pacenti P-dent handlebar and stem are a marginal solution and is not capable of producing the condition that I have. If you attempt to replicate the geometry in a drawing with that bar you will see a huge difference.
  • 2 0
 @pvd666: I see a bar that cannot be rolled to a rider's preferred position and has no rise.
Not a "Complete liberation in design!"

What is this "condition" you are touting here?

And finally, is this class leader, from a 2018 post, still residing in your basement? How is it possible no major manufacturer has not paid you bou-cou (sp?) bucks for this amazing design?
Seems like it is quite fitting you put that link in the comments on this stem...they're both destine for the same fate.

(disclaimer: I do not have a portfolio)
  • 2 0
 @pvd666: i remember you told me i was closed minded for racing cyclocross on drop bars, and that i should be on flat bars. the more i raced, the more i thought about how this is actually a poor take and a misapplication for flat bars. (american) CX is more like road (sport bike) racing, where they use clip-ons and lots of weight on the front-end to manage understeer, and less like XC. drops allow you to place, and manage, weight more effectively than flats. i think one of the unacknowledged limitations of your philosophy is that you need weight on the front. Motocross bikes have lots of sag and not-all-that-extreme head angles. MTBs have less sag to compensate. CX bikes, even less so.

it's a bit misanthropic to dismiss people because you deem they don't add value in the way you like to add value. everyone has a portfolio, it's at minimum the data they've acquired and applied. their setups. small tweaks you don't necessarily see. even as a bit of a misanthrope myself, i find that quite sad.
  • 1 1
 @ReformedRoadie: I'm producing extremely tailored, high performance bikes. That's not something that you are going to be buying at your neighborhood bike shop. If you don't have a solid development program in place, it's unlikely that this is the stuff for you.
  • 2 1
 @mm732: One of us has 34 years of experience prepping and designing high performance bicycles and motorcycles. Who also has 20 years of documentation online explaining concepts others.

The other posts comments anonymously on message boards and 'races'.

Show me.
  • 2 0
 @pvd666: So top level riders don't ever tweak bike set-up or position? That's news.
Also, 99.44% (rough numbers here) of "high performance bikes" have rear suspension. Even weight weenie XC racers are competing on full suspension.
No idea who your clientele are for these creations.

What bike manufacturers are using your designs or patents?
(you know, ones that have 'solid development programs')
  • 1 2
 @ReformedRoadie: I wonder where you get your understanding. I'm pretty connected with folks, study publicly available content, I've known many elite racers, and folks at big companies. I've yet to see an actual setup print from a development program. Hell, I've had to explain some of the basics of bike geometry to a few heads of engineering. I've even discussed this with folks at major media outlets and they had no idea what I was talking about.

Here's the thing and it effects many folks on message boards, just because you don't understand this topic, it doesn't mean I don't. Maybe you should read a few of my posts, listen to the interviews, or watch the lectures. It may help you.

This is why it's important that you build a portfolio of your work. It keeps you accountable to others...but also yourself. I can't do low level work as that doesn't raise my portfolio. I have to do better work every time. That means every project is much harder than the last and I've been doing this for 35 years or so.

Anonymous message board folks have nothing at all.
  • 2 0
 @pvd666: you continue to not answer any of the legitimate questions I pose directly.
I have read some of your posts. You put your 5'2" wife on an S4 size Specialized. Most would think that's bonkers. But I guess you are way more advanced that anyone else here.

A lot of it is just your opinion on things...calling bikes "fast", esp. hardtails is comical. Riders are fast. Bikes only augment or impede their potential for going fast.

You know people that's great. But where are your designs being used? Do you have a full suspension design you've created? Patented?

Just answer some, any of that...I am truly curious.
  • 1 2
 @ReformedRoadie: My wife is 5'6". We put her on the S4 Stumpjumper. You don't understand that. I do. That's the difference here. You don't understand bicycle geometry enough to see what was being done there even after it being explained in very specific detail and with visual aids.

Yes. Riders are fast. But we can put that rider on a bike that takes advantage of their particular skills or makes up for their particular weaknesses to advantage them. I demonstrate that I'm able to do that.

You haven't even started asking me the right questions.
  • 2 0
 @pvd666: "I make mountain bikes for use on aggressive trail. As such, they have reasonably short rear centers, 405mm as on my wife’s new Vega and 410mm as on my new Millennium Falcon. Any optimally designed trailbike or gravel bike for average sized people will be in this range."

So this is ultimately the issue...you spout off on things like this statement, asserted as fact, when the reality is this is simply your opinion. @TEAMROBOT and Greg Minnaar for example may think that is utter bullocks. Both are faster and more accomplished on a bike than either of us, esp the GOAT. (obviously)


So please humor my simple question: what is one example of your work used by a major bike manufacture?
(apologies if that is not "the right question")
  • 1 2
 @ReformedRoadie: Greg Minnaar is 6'2". Charlie is 6'3". Both are far from average height. I'm confident that Charlie has never worked with any actual engineer doing chassis development.

I don't believe that either of your examples has ever produced a dimensioned print of a bicycle that has been seen. I've also never heard either peak about bike geometry outside of marketing points. So I would question what was being brought to the discussion aside from "these guys ride fast".

I do find it funny that last year was the first that Minaar's race bike had a longer front center than my hardtail trail bike. I can finally stop laughing. But you didn't notice that, did you. Nope.

Please start asking the right questions.
  • 2 0
 @pvd666:What was brought to the discussion is that all of this is your outlier opinion.
If someone was using your design, or even contracted you to design geometry for a bike, you would have at least alluded to it...but you didn't.
You talk like you have Dave Weagle's portfolio...but ya don't.

The fact Charlie never worked with an engineer to develop a bike is irrelevant to the fact he prefers a CS length. That is a silly assertion.
  • 1 3
 @ReformedRoadie: Dave has a nice portfolio. I have one also. We both have substantial and serious portfolios. They're quite different and specialize on different things. Sometimes they overlap and we argue.

When someone has a 'preference' outside of a real development program, we call that a guess. I don't work with guesses. That's why this is so important. Hoping that you've drawn an informed conclusion in a pure vacuum of information is not how development work is done. But you don't know that.

Maybe you should try drawing a bike. You might learn something.
  • 1 0
 @pvd666: so as someone that has enjoyed reading your blog from time to time I'm curious.

Have you actually tried all options of CS vs front center lengths or are you taking some of that for granted?
Really just reading here (and being informed by your own writing on the blog) it seems you claim to make no assumptions about bike design, yet my reading of it makes me think you have. Not to be argumentative but actually asking, how many of all possible options (out to ridiculous ends because until they have been tried right?) have you really tried?

Also, I've heard it said that one catches more flies with honey than with vinegar...
  • 1 0
 @pvd666: and relating to what I posted ab, I'm just choosing two possible variables out of many, many more.
  • 1 0
 @BarryWalstead: I've been working on changing variables might improve how the bike is working. So, yes. I test new variables all the time and you can see that when you look at the prints for each bike.

In general, regarding the two parameters you mention. The front center was increased until the terrain that I ride limited it. Rear center was reduced until met with physical limitations or adverse climbing with the chosen saddle location. There isn't much advantage to long rear centers as the bike becomes very clumsy, especially with proper front centers. But I've had bikes up to 440mm. Yucky stuff.

Most of the work these days is figuring out how to get a steeper head angle. That's where the money is now.
  • 1 0
 @pvd666: 440mm chainstays are 'yucky stuff' and that's where you found the physical limits?

Either I'm missing the joke or what? I ride an 'average modern' trail 29er and it has 430mm chainstays and your claim is the extra 10mm is that bad?

I don't know, it seems a bit like you're trolling...
  • 1 1
 @BarryWalstead: My current mountain bike has 410mm rear center. Why would I want an added 20-30mm? That's a mile on a bicycle. Seriously. If I added 30mm to the reach on your frame, would you notice?

Also, I show the context for that in my detailed prints. I'm very exact about what I'm doing. Are you matching that? Like, you're saying that 30mm longer is not worth talking about. I'm saying it is. One of us has prints for the last 20 years worth of setups.
  • 1 1
 @BarryWalstead: when you draw a bike, you can see that long rear centers are a product of engineering and manufacturing ease and NOT superior performance. The same can be said for short front centers. Doing the opposite, as I do, is much harder and presents more complexity.

Thus, marketing long rear centers and short front centers is a business decision.
  • 2 1
 @pvd666: @astonmtb
Paul, Peter, I would love a podcast with you guys and maybe throw in Chris Porter and see what comes out of it. I think you all have some great ideas and have all tested those ideas but come from very very different ends of the spectrum.
  • 2 0
 @pvd666: well it isn't my business building bikes, only riding them but what you're saying is pretty fringe.
Not saying that means absolutely you're wrong, but as a lonely outlier it feels like maybe you're just making up your own nonsense because I'm super happy with how my modern bike rides.
430mm chainstays are plenty short for me, I personally don't dream of having my weight further towards the back wheel.

But that's just me.
  • 2 0
 @BarryWalstead: You're not wrong.
Take for example, the Specialized Status. It has what most think are short CS @ 425 for all sizes.
If you read online reviews, both established media and rando internet hack, the consistent message is that in the S1-S3 sizes, the handling is good. Once you move to the longer front centers on the S4, S5...it feels unbalanced.
Now take a 410CS with a front center longer than Greg Minnaar's V10...throw on there something similar to the BMB stem reviewed here.
I guess if you have drawings of it in your portfolio...it somehow works. Not only does it work its' fast.

I am still laughing...but you didn't notice that, did you?
  • 1 2
 @BarryWalstead: That could be the case....unless you look at the work that others show (or elude to).

I make predictive changes, generation after generation, based on system parameters and measurements. I evaluate the changes and make further changes for the next generation. I keep records and have over time. That's development.

Now, I tell every aspiring racer or athlete that they need to do the same. They have to. Every equipment change or purchase needs to be predictive (in fact). Not just a retail fantasy. How else could one choose a bike on the showroom floor?

You say you're happy. Ignorance is bliss. You don't know what your current setup is. You don't know your last. You don't know what the actual changes are. You can be as happy as you like but that's just faith, not fact.

Why wouldn't you learn to measure your bike? I demonstrate the up side, continually. I make a solid case. Show me ANYONE making a better case or showing a better case....and show me what you do (that isn't just retail fantasy).
  • 1 1
 @BarryWalstead: Here's an example of how others should be shopping for a bike...but don't. Note that nothing here is custom made or otherwise not available to you or anyone else. This is the way.

www.peterverdone.com/windys-trail-crusher
  • 3 0
 @BarryWalstead: From his own post:
"The rear center length of 432mm isn’t overly long like most bikes have gone with to their detriment. It’s actually quite good. Still, I wish that they had done more work to bring that down. 430mm or less would be pretty spellbinding on this platform. "
Oh, that's rich...
  • 1 0
 @ReformedRoadie: You are speaking about things that you have absolutely no understanding of.
  • 3 0
 @pvd666: That's a quote from your blog...so, maybe you don't understand yourself.
Still waiting for you to answer the direct questions. Clearly you are afraid it exposes you as the fraud you are.
Dave Weagle must be laughing his ass off.
  • 1 1
 @ReformedRoadie: You are asking stupid questions. It's like you are a child. Maybe you are as you seem to understand little about bikes and seem to think posting anonymously earns you anything but disrespect.

I put my name on the ledger every day. People with real life names know mine. Nobody knows who you are.

Maybe you need to learn how to be a man (or woman)? Men and women don't have to hide who they are.
  • 2 0
 @pvd666: so as the only person in this current discussion using my real name it seems funny you're here acting like you aren't the keyboard cowboy.

You're just being rude, not educational. And it seems clear you're making some fairly significant contradictions between your blog and here.
And just because most of us don't obsess over the details you seem to, and feel compelled to write and share, does not mean we are all idiots suffering through riding horrible bikes.

I read your bike setup for Windy and it's, uh, freaking bizarre. But hey, if she's happy riding it go right ahead. But you sir are the outer reaches of the fringe. And no manufacturer seems to buy into what you're selling so where do you get off being such a dick about all this?
  • 2 0
 @pvd666: I'll repeat from above:
You know people that's great. But where are your designs being used? Do you have a full suspension design you've created? Patented?

That is a straight up direct question...you taking the fifth repeatedly is answering it for everyone.

I think I'm done here. Maybe if I'm really bored at the next Philly Bike Expo, and you're there, I'll say hello. Would LOVE to see you ride the 'Falcon at the Wiss.
  • 2 2
 @ReformedRoadie: You keep asking very stupid questions. If you notice, @BarryWalstead asked a question that was answered. That's because it wasn't stupid.

You've got a lot to learn. I hope you get yourself together by the time you leave home for college. The world is going to eat you up if you don't.
  • 1 3
 @pvd666: you've spent 2 weeks arguing with an idiot. The world has already eaten you if you can find anything better to do with your time.

The 2 of you need to take this playground bs to DMs.
  • 2 2
 @RonSauce: I've been off message boards for a few years. I'm just getting my dose of "these f@cking clowns" so that I stay away again. What he doesn't know is what's been going on in the backround and how sick it is. Ha.
  • 2 0
 @pvd666: "Why wouldn't you learn to measure your bike? I demonstrate the up side, continually. I make a solid case. Show me ANYONE making a better case or showing a better case....and show me what you do (that isn't just retail fantasy)."

Why would I want to measure my bike to be sure it matches with the geometry chart? Some of us prefer RIDING these bikes rather than the obsession about their details.
And I'll admit, I've read a lot of your stuff, but I'm not even slightly convinced to go measure my bike because... It works as I hoped it would, it does the things I ask of it, and that makes me happy.
To not dive down the Alice in Wonderland hole you seem happy to live inside, doesn't mean I'm some idiot, nor that ReformedRoadie is an idiot either. You've been the most obnoxious here, you've been the one spouting wild, unproven (at least to any scale commercially) concepts that might even be correct, but you seem more like the guy tilting at windmills.

But you at least make beautifully made weird. I will give you that. And I like the nerd value.
As the Klingon say: Heghlu'meH QaQ jajva!
  • 1 1
 @pvd666: you say:
"I make predictive changes, generation after generation, based on system parameters and measurements. I evaluate the changes and make further changes for the next generation. I keep records and have over time. That's development."

But that doesn't mean development, it means recording your changes. But you saying 'predictive changes' means you're putting your own preconceived notions in there. Our at least that's how I see it.
I asked about CS length and your response was so nut job it's hard taking you seriously on here. If you were a true 'random' I wouldn't be bothering. But you're making HUGE assumptions as your own words evidence. You say things like 'yuck' about 440 CS?
Maybe as the nutter on here listen to how you might sound.
I'm not claiming your bikes don't ride well on the mellow Marin terrain, but that's not the reality of where some of us PNW folks ride. And I'm not even claiming they wouldn't ride well at my local, but realize you are speaking from this bizarre place and help people to learn to understand you, not insult them, marginalize them or any of it.
  • 2 2
 @BarryWalstead: If you aren't interested in high performance or improving your setup then you don't have to do that. It's obviously something that you don't want to put any effort into.

Others do want higher performance and will do what it takes to get it. It's not many but they exist. I try to teach others what that is. Again, you aren't interested in that beyond reading my posts and feeling good that you're right because you own a bike. Fine. Very very few people will ever do more than buy crap at a store and feel good about that. That's never been me.

You don't understand how valuable my information is. Fine. It's over your head. Lot's of people watch NASCAR. Few work developing F1 cars. That's how this is. It doesn't mean that I'm wrong. It just means that you like watching NASCAR. I'm doing the work.

I've been at this a long time. I do the work and show it. I know a few others that put the work in as well. They have a portfolio of their work. Folks without that are just consumers.
  • 2 1
 @BarryWalstead: "But you sir are the outer reaches of the fringe." Remember when everyone thought Chris Porter was crazy with super long slack proportionally sized bikes - now this is becoming the norm because it makes sense and works.

I'm not saying Peter is right but we need people exploring the outer fringes to see where the limits are. Without those people we are stuck in the middle. I think there are a lot of people who are content with their bikes as they are and are not willing to try different things to see if it makes it better / worse.
  • 4 1
 @BarryWalstead: This is easy to test. Simply have any legit media person test ride the Millenium Falcon (or any of the well drawn up creations) and see what they think. Hell, do timed testing.
Chris Porter (Geometron) and Leo (Pole) had no fear letting others test their more extreme creations...

RE: the Nascar reference...all I am seeing is PVD wearing Ricky Bobby's 'ME' fire suit.
  • 3 0
 @ReformedRoadie: You would think that that would have happened a long time ago. Sadly, media outlets seem only interested in producing content for their advertisers. I've seen next to zero interest from those in the marketing industry. I'm not doing any advertising so I'm not interesting.

This is telling, eh?!.
  • 2 0
 @pvd666: I do hear what you're saying, and I'm gonna grant you that point.

But, have you actually emailed the editors on here for a real review of something off of the beaten path? Every once in a while they do test random stuff that I'm seriously doubting they got paid to review.
Or he'll, get Andrew Major on NSMB to review it, seems exactly up how alley.
  • 1 0
 @pvd666: or Seth from Berm Peak loves the weird and whacky...
  • 1 0
 @BarryWalstead: You're asking me to do their jobs? If they are so credible, shouldn't they understand what needs to be covered?
  • 2 0
 @pvd666: well, as you live on the fringe (we did establish that right?) maybe you could reach out and let them know you exist.
And I mean that slightly tongue in cheek, but also seriously.

How could the world know you've figured out how bikes should really be unless you help us learn?
  • 3 0
 @pvd666: and credible doesn't mean they know about literally everything going on by everyone in the bike world.
And like, if it's a bike being custom built for one customer how relevant should we expect that to be to the entire industry.

Also, you realize that bike brands that get reviewed send out press releases, and offers of demo loaners. So to my understanding it is literally YOUR JOB to send them the info, to offer up your bike to get tested to see your concepts brought to light.
  • 2 0
 @BarryWalstead: I'm not a brand. I'm Peter Verdone. I don't have a marketing department or budget because I'm not selling you anything.

I've been playing this game online for the last 25 years, and I started 8n the industry 35 years ago.. I'm quite well known to anyone who has tried to study bike tech. They don't write my name but they grew up with my work in their search results.

The point is, they aren't interested in bicycles. They are interested in marketing and advertising. That is the only thing of value...selling you crap. That pays their bills. All the media, youtubers, and influences. Sales.

If that were not the case, we would see very different behavior. It's simply incentives and motivations.
  • 1 0
 @pvd666: and on that I'm not going to argue.

But again, you claim to be the secret keeper of these truths. And also true is that you expect investigative journalism and that's probably not what the average reader even wants. So unless you're going to put it into someone's hands to independently test it seems you're kind of polishing your own knob here.

Seriously, email someone like Andrew Major from NSMB, he's a full rigid, single speed kind of guy that rides the North Shore. And he has some pleasantly offbeat thought on bikes in his articles. And I'm interested in trying something like your bike, but I'm here, you're there and I don't even have a website, nor a portfolio so who would care? But I would also be interested in reading what someone like Dario or Henry might think of it.

Anyway, it's been fun. Hope to get to ride one of your creations someday and but you a beer. But I think I'm done here.
  • 1 0
 @BarryWalstead: I've had discussions with some of them. There was ZERO interest.

Listen, my work is making better bikes. It's not fixing bicycle marketing in the world. You can do that but I'm old enough to know what a stupid that idea is.

I'm cutting metal for prototypes. RIGHT NOW. What have you been doing?
  • 62 7
 From the FAQ on the website regarding safety: "....It has exceeded the mtb stem strength and fatigue requirements in accordance with BS EN ISO 4210 in virtual FEA simulations. We have not yet sent one of the RR stems out for official certification. When riding it, you can tell that it has a very solid and secure feel."

Only in SIMULATIONS has it passed any testing, this is not the stage of a development process to be released to the public, but at least when riding it "feels secure." They should stop selling these before they have done real lab testing. This is potentially dangerous otherwise.
  • 22 1
 Yeah that's wild. I can't imagine releasing product with 100% reliance on FEA. I've done a lot of testing that brings out the misses in FEA. It's a great place to start, and a massive help in the design stage but it's not gospel.
  • 16 14
 To be fair, Bronson put his money where his mouth is, and raced it to wins in his local races. Also looks fairly sturdy, to me at least. Structure is triangulated and corners on the bracket have nice large fillets which leads to lower stress risers. Not saying I'd buy one, but I'd try it and not worry for my life...
  • 35 9
 @iduckett: it looks like complete shite and As it diversifies so heavily from standard stem construction it absolutely requires validation via lab testing.

This isn’t a seatclamp, if it fails badly it could equal big mashup
  • 14 30
flag BarryWalstead (Dec 21, 2023 at 9:54) (Below Threshold)
 @justanotherusername: do you really think your ARMS are gonna rip that solid piece of aluminum and crash you?

Just from my eyeball FEA it's massively over built. What do your eyes tell you?
  • 7 24
flag iduckett FL (Dec 21, 2023 at 10:02) (Below Threshold)
 @justanotherusername: Jesus dude, who s*** on your pancakes this morning? You have any actual experience in FEA? Or just saying it looks terrible so it must be terrible.
  • 42 6
 @iduckett: I’m part owner of a machine shop / manufacturing business, design and manufacture our own product, deal with FEA and lab testing, wrote a dissertation investigating product failure of a 7075 anodised aluminium part so understand how anodising can impact fatigue limit.

My eyes tell me f*ck all other than this stem needs lab testing, especially for fatigue failure.
  • 11 0
 @BarryWalstead: I broke an Azonic World Force stem in half once. It looks similarly overbuilt as this thing. I'm not a big guy, and it didn't break in a crash. It just gradually cracked over time until one day the cracks ran all the way through it. Sometimes things that look burly aren't actually that strong.
  • 8 3
 @BarryWalstead: ever heard of fatigue Barry?
  • 7 5
 @justanotherusername: Unless you are NASA, GM, Ford, or some other huge company that has a ton of time to validate a bunch of FEA results there is no way I would trust an FEA model to predict a failure load within 50% of what is seen in a production part. I've done a lot of FEA optimization of design and a lot of testing of the production parts. FEA does NOT do a good job of predicting the ultimate failure load without super computers and a lot of validation of models and load cases. For me I have seen FEA be invaluable in quick iterations to compare if you are getting better, worse or about the same. There is no way I or the company I work for would send a part to market without physical testing to standards (in our case UL).
  • 1 4
 @justanotherusername: Sounds like you’ve got a nice career ahead of you, congrats! I’m reading anodization can reduce fatigue strength by as much as 50% depending on coating thickness. Is that accurate in your experience? That’s a huge question mark for a tall gangly part like this.
  • 5 0
 The additional bending load on the steerer tube and the top headset bearing is going to have a tough time!
  • 3 0
 @iduckett:
It’s less impressive when you actually look at the results. Not sure what category he’s racing in but 1/3 is hardly conclusive proof of anything.
  • 1 0
 @notthatfast: Yea, didn’t realize that. It’s quite the polarizing design and I admire his passion to try new things. Unfortunately for him he’s selling these and there’s real risk involved. Regardless of if one likes the looks or not, he clearly has some work to do to validate his design, or worse, not get sued.
  • 1 0
 @sir-hc: I'm fairly sure the loads coming through the fork are way higher than your arms are generating. Your fork at times takes your full, moving body weight, you aren't pushing that all through your arms.
  • 45 8
 Doesn't the guy who produces this stem have the most embarrassing fontucky clip in history? That clip really said it all to me. Awkward, unbalanced, out of control, and frankly, ugly as hell.
  • 2 2
 amen
  • 23 1
 You gotta provide a link to the clip then....
  • 7 1
 @RadBartTaylor: Desperately trying to find it, but having no such luck. Someone linked it here last time the stem was brought up, it's legitimately hilarious. Dude is falling all over the track for like 20 seconds until he finally goes OTB. ZERO control.
  • 9 6
 @ranchitup: that’s hilarious
  • 22 10
 I've seen plenty of clips of Bronson shredddding. I don't think I've seen this clip, but everyone has off days.
  • 51 5
 @sherbet: I’ve had far worse crashes than that on camera with a conventional stem to be fair.
  • 18 3
 @henryquinney: but also to be fair, I've had smoother runs down that track on an XC bike 20 years ago. And my user name isnt just a clever pun.
  • 4 8
flag JSTootell (Dec 21, 2023 at 9:35) (Below Threshold)
 The dudes claims about his race results actually inspired me to maybe try a DH race there. I normally race the XC out there, I'm not interested in gravity racing (too much sitting around), but I'm tempted to try one and see how the competition stacks these days. The crowds are tiny compared to pre pandemic
  • 1 0
 @JSTootell: you would kill it.
  • 15 1
 @henryquinney:
In fairness though the clip lends credence to what you found while testing the stem yourself - he looks like his weight is far too far back on the bike and as a result can't keep control of his front wheel, while blowing through his rear travel.
  • 15 0
 @JSTootell: you can Google his race results. His claims do not match reality and people really need to stop taking them at face value.
  • 5 0
 @henryquinney: Now imagine how bad those crashes would have been with THIS stem.
  • 6 1
 @ranchitup: That high upright you are loosing all your core strength to be able to overcome torque on your handlebars, this is the dumbest shit i have ever seen. its like putting a dirt bike next to a Harley with ape hangers.
  • 4 0
 @BoneDog: yeah watching that video really highlights how terrible the riding position is with this stem.
  • 31 0
 it really needs a linkage fork to complete the look.
  • 22 0
 Man, toss one of these with a linkage fork on a knolly and you’ve got a stew goin
  • 1 0
 I think it would pair nicely with a rider perched atop a SaddleSpur
  • 3 0
 @sudochuckwalla: I never knew Carl Weathers rode MTB.
  • 1 0
 @sudochuckwalla: *stares at his knolly* I mean maybe I have been linkage fork curious in the past….. but still wouldn’t go that far!
  • 1 0
 Don’t insult linkage forks like that.
  • 1 0
 @mkul7r4: that’s some “specialist” viewing right there.
  • 32 0
 $400!
  • 4 0
 Could just get a nice dirt jumper or hardtail secondhand and do all the manuals you want if its too hard to manual a huge enduro bike and someone thinks this stem is the solution lol. Also a mega high rise bar like shown is probably a better option for most people.
  • 24 0
 I think your issue with the stem was that you didnt fit the Answer 76mm bars in it. 15mm were just too low
  • 15 1
 Username checks out.
  • 3 0
 Agreed but not high enough. I'm looking for some ape hangers on my enduro bike.
  • 2 0
 Chopper the things
  • 13 2
 It also destroys the aesthetic of the bike, and while that doesn't affect its performance, it'll prevent it from ever really taking off as anything more than a niche product being tested by someone who loves standing out, or has a health problem that benefits from it and will likely be adopted by only a handful worldwide before fizzling out until it reappears to win best in show at a retrobike comp in 20 years.
  • 12 0
 Where is he? Where's the creator with his mile long long rambling advertisements I mean comments?
  • 4 0
 below the threshold lol
  • 8 1
 Overall good video. Fair, overall negative, but not mean. Maybe a niche product for some people. but as an owner of a somewhat high stack bike (Lithium), I can't imagine it working there.

Props to HQ for not repeating the claims that the inventor makes about how it improved his race times. I remember Seth's Bike Hacks doing that. When you dig into the actual races, it doesn't make a compelling case.
  • 10 0
 Sigh... in a few years we're going to have dropper stems on the market aren't we?
  • 1 0
 Flexi stems makes it come back
  • 6 0
 And then a couple years after that, everyone will be bitching about how the AXS stem still only has 70mm of drop.
  • 7 0
 I like the concept of reverse offset which isn't anything new in moto world. But claiming you could just stick on anything you're riding now and it would work sounds ridiculous. A motocycle has 60% of the system weight low between 2 wheels providing grip, A bicycle has 75% system weight constantly moving around loading and unloading.
  • 9 0
 This needs to be promoted by a pro hero rider, Pinkbikers would throw out their perfectly good old stuff and become experts on this critical new measurement, over night.
  • 6 0
 This video is most likely spot on in it conclusion. However, I would like to see the same experiment done on one frame size up from normal to see if the longer front end will help with the weight transfer.

Most likely not- but it’s the only thing that I can see missing.
  • 18 0
 Brian Cahal did a video with it on a geometron. So basically a full size up.

youtu.be/g0gdbiwEEYw?si=mFZjs1RYJ5BArU6q
  • 2 0
 @sudochuckwalla: yeah this seems like it could be good with a bike with very long reach and short stack. Bring it back into balance while keeping the long wheelbase
  • 2 0
 @ashmtb85: Or just make it not so ridiculously tall.
  • 9 2
 Brian Cahal on youtube has a much more in depth video on this which I found quite fascinating.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0gdbiwEEYw&ab_channel=BrianCahal
  • 5 0
 It’s great that people play around with stuff like this.

It’s absolutely nuts that it’s made it to market, based on the belief of someone who’s quite obviously (from the video) a mediocre rider.

It says a lot that many of the other YouTube “influencers” haven’t called this out for what it quite obviously is. I’m especially disappointed in Seth.
  • 6 0
 The problem with this stem is that the designers forgot we need to climb and descend — so we need a balance at the cockpit that allows us to do both.
  • 4 0
 @TheR I think the problem is that we need to climb and descend, and this stem is good for neither.
  • 6 0
 I feel like if you saw someone riding with this stem they most certainly would need a pair of bar ends turned straight up....
  • 4 0
 @henryquinney good comparison, how about another round with the 76mm ProTaper and normal stem to separate the rise from the reverse? I wouldn't be surprised if much of your negative experience was down to the aft shift of your hands.
  • 1 0
 Henry: -ve ESL (effective stem length) takes some getting used to. I've been experimenting with ESL for a few years now and I still tend to go back to 0mm ESL as my go to - similar to Ruzelman / Aston.

A tall front end is definitely good though but you need to set up the bike to work properly and be prepared to change your riding style.
  • 7 0
 I've got a bunch of bikes with 500mm chainstays and high stacks ready when you are Henry!
  • 2 0
 Paul - you need to test one if these stems so we can get a proper take on it not just knee jerk tabloidism....
  • 5 0
 So satisfying to hear someone say that this product is garbage. The guy who invented this used to be all over my youtube feed talking about how "revolutionary" this is.
  • 5 1
 I’m surprised there was no mention of reach. I feel like reducing the reach of your bike by like 50mm would make things very sketchy on steep trails and make it feel like you’re going to go otb.
  • 3 0
 Yes, tried it with stacking 35mm stem spacers and 50mm rise bar, it's so short and high the bar just pokes into you, not good
  • 2 0
 There are loads of issues in addition to reach. Basically, this riser throws the cockpit completely out of wack. I don’t know what this thing is supposed to be useful for.
  • 3 0
 Shouldn't actually impact the OTB feeling, that's all about center of mass vs front axle. Raising your bars and getting back in the steeps generally reduces OTB. The trend to increase reach to increase stability was more about wheelbase than top tube length.
  • 1 0
 @MorganBH: I think longer reach gives you better leverage and strength when on steep stuff. The angle of your arms becomes more in line with the slope of the trail. Imagine if you reduced the reach of your bike by 300mm but kept the wheelbase the same. I’m pretty sure it would feel like you’re going to go over the bars
  • 7 0
 I look forward to the market contraction.
  • 6 1
 Is t the Y-axis the one parallel to the handle bar? Z is vertical and X is horizontal basically from front to rear of the bike.
Sorry. Machinist needing out over here…
  • 7 1
 My brain hurts but I imagine you’re probably right. I’m still relying on primary school maths.
  • 2 0
 It's all arbitrary
  • 4 2
 @piman: There's a defined convention though. For aircraft,
X is roll. Line drawn horizontally fore-aft. You cartwheel around this axis.
Y is pitch. Line drawn horizontally like wing span. You flip/roll around this axis.
Z is yaw. Line drawn vertically from below, thru center, and above. You twirl around this axis.
Machinist stuff is diff. X is horizontal side-to-side, Y is closer and further away, Z is elevation.
For other stuff, it's like a frame of reference where X is heading, Y is banking angle, Z is elevation.

Some X and Y mixups, but seems consistent that Z is up and down though. Don't ask where I got my name from.
  • 6 1
 Finally!!! I was searching for a way to throw out $400 and get rid of all the front traction at the same time. I can’t imagine why the MTB market is slowing down.
  • 2 0
 I’ll happily remove your front tire for $400. Win-win
  • 6 0
 This and the dildo saddle completes 2024 for me. Bicyclepubes part of choice for sure.
  • 3 0
 It just doesn't make any sense to me. Modern bikes are so long in the front end these days that I find I need a really low stack to weight the front wheel effectively in corners and steep sections, to the point where on longer travel bikes I have to slam my stem to get an appropriately low stack. I just don't understand what problem this aims to solve. It's a no from me.
  • 7 4
 I think it's neat. Most people run way too low of a stack, and weight transfer happens from leaning the bike and the tire grabbing, not necessarily you weighting and turning the bars first. In fact, if your stack is too low you're going to pull back and unweight the front which im certain leads to most washouts. It's interesting abd not deserving of the hate it gets
  • 3 0
 Maybe they just need to change the marketing. This could be part of a reverse mullet kit. Slap that 27.5 front wheel on your 29er and this stem and you're good to with an extra responsive hta lol
  • 2 0
 It would be interesting to continue the test with the high rise bar mounted in the video and normal stem. It's certainly logical that the longer the rear center is, the higher the bar needs to be. But moving the bar back too like this stem does just doesn't make any sense to me. A 50mm rise bar would be interesting to try, but I have a perfectly nice 35mm rise OneUp bar that I don't want to swap out!
  • 5 0
 Not only do you lose front end grip you but drastically reduce the amount of suspension travel you have in your hip hinge.
  • 2 0
 Also reduces leverage lifting, higher bars are great for bunnyhops but not that high
  • 2 0
 I'm from a bmx background and felt mtb's are too far forward in reach. I'm riding two modern spec bikes and with a 40mm stem, I'm still leaning over a bit too much where it feels like I'm front wheel heavy. This idea of upright and back seems like a fun idea but the price is keeping me away. I don't think it's overpriced and looks like a solid chunk of 6160 and time but I can almost get the same effect from a 80mm rise bar and short stem.
  • 1 0
 Why not just run a Bmx stem and bar combo on your current ride? Save a bunch of cash and have the feeling your looking for
  • 1 0
 Search my name, I posted below about an Amazon stem I'm using.
  • 2 0
 I really like Henry's presentation style, but also what he homes in on, during the reviews. This stem ultimately did exactly what most thought it would do. I'm in the rare group that likes to keep my stack low for front wheel traction, so this just never made sense to me.
  • 2 0
 Those 3 cons... at least it didn't fail. Add to the fact that the riders that don't laugh at you will talk your ear off at the trailhead about it. They might even follow you home telling you all about their Acromio-clavicular Joint Dislocations... talking the whole way
  • 3 1
 @henryquinney: how much riding time have you spent with that stem mounted?

I have recently done testing on a completely different subject: crank length, on a road bike. Testing 145mm crank length while I am otherwise normally riding 175mm ones.

First 3 rides were feeling terrible. First few minutes I was even afraid of even standing on the pedals. I was also feeling powerless.

Only after a month of riding that bike exclusively I could say I got used to it but it felt really weird riding a 175mm crank again.

3 months later I can ride 175mm crank on one ride, regardless if it is a road bike or MTB then switch to that road bike with 145mm cranks and back and adjust without thinking of it more than the first 2 minutes of my ride and I no longer feel like I am losing performance.

Now and only now that I feel comfortable on both crank length 3 months later, I do feel I can do back to back performance testing. Right now I don't even know if I am faster with one specific crank length, I want to test both on same day/weather conditions, and same bicycle.

I am not saying both experiences are comparable, but maybe maybe this is such a drastic change that only long term testing can really lead to a decent conclusion, whatever that conclusion is, because your body might be stuck with years of muscle memory working in a different way.
  • 2 0
 I like the idea of a higher stack riding position. I had been riding my S4 Stumpy Evo with the stock 35mm rise bars and max spacers under the 40mm stem at ~20mm of spacers. I often felt like I wanted to be more upright, in particular when I am on long gravel forest road climbs which are common in my area of Western NC mountains. I went to a 60mm rise handlebar and it didn't' feel too high with the same spacers, then tried a 80mm rise handlebar with the same amount of spacers and noticed it was hard to get low over the front wheel on machine cut trails. I am currently settled with the 80mm rise bars and taking out 10mm of spacers bringing my stem down and forward a bit. I have no detriment to climbing steep technical trails that I notice, and the position is great for descending steeps and climbing long moderate gravel roads. To each their own but experimenting with fit can be beneficial.
  • 1 0
 What settings are you running on your stumpy? I’m on an S5 and have slowly brought the grips up and back over the last couple years, just curious what chainstay/headtube settings you’ve settled on with that much rise.
  • 1 0
 Similar to where I have got to with my Murmur. 70mn rise bars, 20mm spacers and a 31mm stem with the bars set to 0mm ESL.
  • 2 0
 This stem sort-of works for Henry on the Transition Spire, precisely because that bike has a tiny stack height, very long chainstays and a lenghty reach.

This precisely seems to be the only combination of circumstances where a raised reversed stem would influence the rider's center of gravity in a favourable manner. In any other case a raised reversed stem would push the riders center of gravity backwards, taking pressure off the front wheel and subsequently introduce understeer.

Or in other words: The Transition Spire (like most modern bikes) doesn't have enough stack height to begin with.
  • 2 0
 This is a little crazy. However; I do think most bicycle manufacturers cut the fork steerer too short.Leave them 2 inches longer and let the owner figure it out. I don’t like hunching over while riding my bike. It is nice to have options. I like to be in the bike- not on it.
  • 6 1
 The slab and ladder bridge pics don't even show it mounted.
  • 5 4
 We just took photos throughout the day of back to back testing. I’ll add a caption to clean that up though. Cheers
  • 12 1
 Was swapped trailside for safety reasons
  • 3 0
 @FaahkEet would you ride those features with that stem mounted? D:
  • 5 4
 Interesting review. Other reviews I’ve read about this stem have pretty different opinions- people generally seemed to enjoy the experience, even setting pb’s on local tracks. That being said, not one chose it over a standard setup in the end. Great to see new things being tried though.
  • 5 4
 I have 75mm rise bars on my too low front 2018 XL. My seat at full height is still just above bar height. Those of you who hate this stem are probably just so short you have to slam your bars to feel in control. Some of us are tall.
  • 1 0
 @henrey I wonder what would happen if you tried this on a bike that was way less at the far far end of Geo like the spire. Transition has some fairly unique geometry requiring you to use a lot of the parts that come with it as far as stem length stack height, bar roll, and what not. If I remember correctly, the guy who made this stem is riding some more mellow Southern California desert trails. And I also believe he’s on an older much steeper much shorter bike than this. I think this is a poorly designed and bad idea but I wonder what it would be like if you tried tried this on a non-transition on something that has a lot more conservative Geo what you would get
  • 3 1
 Whaaaaaatttt??? You mean those thousands of engineers and designers refining MTBs over the past 40 years are not actually a bunch of idiots who all missed out on the same simple thing? Fathom that.
  • 1 0
 The biggest problem is the price. Some are curious, but most won't commit a $400 experiment. $30 Solution:

www.amazon.com/dp/B082DSKDTX?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details&th=1&psc=1

While I didn't put this on my mtb I did put it on my Talaria XXX e-moto. I was fiddling with handlebar setups and realized any bar with significant rise resulted in too-long-stem-length feel. Bought the stem above and am now a huge fan of it. I didn't weigh it, but with the BMB stem at 393 grams any stem of this type is going to be weighty.
1. Super adjustable.
2. Super sturdy. The notch indentations are pretty pronounced, and when the thing is tightened there's zero discernible flex.
3. Only downside for me has been that since the thing is so sturdy and the adjustment indentations are so deep you have to loosen both adjustment bolts even if you only want to change the angle of one segment. When this happens it can be easy to lose or misadjust the particular settings of the segments.
  • 2 1
 Lets be honest, just like that parallelogram fork that was going to "change mountain biking", this stem simply looks shit! Even if it offered a big advantage(which it doesn't) I'd rather stick with my current setup that looks decent than look like a total bellend!
  • 4 0
 Somewhere Dak is sitting in a dark room and drooling over how high he can get his bars now
  • 1 0
 Make your bike handle better.....by making it handle worse. Was this thing made by AI?! The only (and I mean ONLY) way this stem could work is on a frame specifically designed for it. That would mean low stack, hella long reach and trail adjusted for having zero stabilization from any stem extension.

To be fair, I'd be curious to see what that looks like. But it doesn't look like putting this on any current bike on the market. Maybe the next Donut?????
  • 2 0
 Why is this still given air to breathe? If you’re bike fit is so f*cked up that you need this, then just fit a BMX stem and cruiser bar and you’ll achieve the same awful results, but without the awful looks.
  • 1 0
 There's a market for this. The stem-riser crowd has another option, and it looks pretty cool comparatively. And as my back gets more and more problematic, I'll probably grab one.
  • 1 0
 Search my name, I posted below about an Amazon stem I'm using.
  • 1 0
 We needed this in the nineties, take off the flat bar and 150mm stem and size up a few sizes haha
  • 2 0
 Henry. If you really want to expand your balance theories... Do a test with this high stem mounted backwards to get your balance point further forward.
  • 2 0
 Protaper A76 bars are pretty good! I'm actually surprised at how compliant they are compared to the OneUp carbons I was running.
  • 1 0
 My problem with this is for a few hundred dollars more you can get a custom marino steel full sus. Just add some head tube to your single pivot steel steed and bobs your aunt Fanny's love in lover!
  • 2 0
 I’m sure it rides well on certain terrain. But all I can imagine is going deep and having that thing violently greet my face.
  • 2 0
 Did the contributors have to draw straws on had to test this abomination of a stem?

Also there are probably people with comfort bikes who this would be more suited for.
  • 1 1
 Whether this stem is a good idea or not, this reviewer clearly has little idea how a bike and body are supposed to interact with each other. Whenever a review says a stem affects the way a rider’s mass weights a bike, stop reading. That person does not know how great riding works.
  • 1 2
 I appreciate your input here. I’m quite a fan of your work in mtb coaching, and a big believer in your teachings of focusing more on hinging at the hips instead of squatting down to bring you chest closer to the bars, riding with a good bend in your elbows for room to extend and compress as the bike floats under you, supporting all of your weight through your feet balanced over the bottom bracket, really leaning the bike over when cornering, looking at your RAD (the distance between your feet and hands) as a lever, pumping utilized on the trail and in corners, and breaking down most mtb movement patterns such as pumping cornering jumping and floating over rough terrain into variations of Rows (Pulling with your hands while pushing with your feet) and AntiRows (Pushing with your hands while bringing your feet up).

I actually designed the RR stem with a lot of these principles in mind, and I feel that it is with that riding technique that you can get the most out of the RR stem. The Raised height and Reversed offset bring the bars up to meet you instead of you hinging down really low to meet the bars to have good bend in your elbows. The Reversed offset arcs out to meet you when leaning the bike over really far so that the bike can drop down into a turn more for better side knob engagement and to carve a kinematically tighter turn. The Raised height gives a longer RAD to give you more leverage over the bike, and gives a more upright RAAD (angle of your RAD line) for more response to pushing and pulling forward and backward on the bars when Rowing and AntiRowing with a more horizontal arm angle to the bars.

Weighting your inside hand to lean and turn in doesn’t work well with the RR stem. Trying to weight your hands getting up and over the bar climbing, descending, and braking hard doesn’t pair well with the RR stem. Riding with straighter extended and braced arms supporting yourself with your skeletal structure doesn’t pair well with the RR stem. Letting the bike float under you around the bottom bracket as you stay centered and balanced, and using your hands as weightless guides does though work very well both with a traditional stem, and particularly so with the RR stem.
  • 1 1
 @bemorebikes: It's great to hear from you! I'm planning a video about your stem. I was gonna go it based on theory, but if you like I'll be happy to test one in real life. leelikesbikes at gmail dot com.
  • 2 0
 Henry: I dare you to reverse your crowns in the fork to have a negative offset and try again with the stem...
  • 1 1
 That's actually a solid shout! Haha.
  • 1 0
 it's like you need to lower your fork pressure to get sag back, but that screws everything else up... fascinating. glad to see we can find what doesn't work! lol
  • 3 0
 Perfect for getting your drop bars in the right spot on your trail bike.
  • 1 2
 Things like this, I hate to instantly say no way but when we see other sim sports that have NOT adopted it it makes me wonder, dirt bikes are a prime example. I am sure, like anything, there probably are very real benefits but the frames / bikes would likely need to be changed accordingly so there are not such glaring trade-offs...but like anything there will be trade-offs though.

So looking at moto - nobody rides a rearward tall position like this, some guys try but it's typically older guys that are beginners.....speaking of which, maybe this does make sense? Smile
  • 3 0
 That's a lot of typing just to say "this stem sucks".
  • 1 0
 Better will be a kind of "modular" raise stem, with an allen key from below, like this but not suspensión... --> ep1.pinkbike.org/p4pb26020758/p4pb26020758.jpg
  • 4 0
 KILL IT WITH FIRE
  • 1 0
 Seems like this is working to resolve an issue that could be fixed by increasing stack. Maybe if this stem wasn't extremely long it would have gotten better marks.
  • 2 0
 Absolutely. If it even is a problem to begin with.
  • 1 0
 @henryquinney Do you mind saying which tube holder you're using on the under/top tube mount there? Thanks! Having a hard time finding a decent one for my Spire.
  • 2 1
 It's one of these - highabove.net/collections/the-shop-accessories/products/apollo-mk1

The strap is kinda bad though, so I replaced it with a velcro one from Home Depot.
  • 3 1
 Stick this on a ebike strap on your moto gear and full face and crank up the tunes..your ready to shred the gnarly.. hahaha
  • 2 0
 Ahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
  • 2 0
 Put it on the Nicolai with the Lal drivetrain and gearbox. Do it. It's what the people want.
  • 1 0
 I think it was installed incorrectly. I think the brake hoses need to go through the sides of the stem, THEN exit toward the back.
  • 2 0
 I would love to see a comparison ride with the 70mm rise bar forwards and backwards. It would be really helpful.
  • 2 0
 This thing looks like what AI would come up with if you asked it to create a bar-steerer clamp mechanism.
  • 2 0
 “ A bit like hitting a wet root while dragging your front brake”

Review is one line ^^^
  • 2 0
 How many teeth need to die before this thing ends up in the history dumpster.
  • 1 0
 Probably use this type of stem to learn how to do manuals. Then, move back to 30-50mm stem. That $400USD price is just laughable.
  • 3 0
 I'd over fork, before over steming...
  • 1 0
 would put you in a similar position on your pedal bike as my ADV motorbike. Probably a reasonable idea for E-bikes and DH bikes in that respect.
  • 1 0
 When human beings devolve back to dinosaurs, and we are all 9’ tall T-Rex’s with tiny arms. We are gonna be so glad this stem exists.
  • 2 0
 Through stem cable routing...easy.
  • 1 0
 Did anybody notice in the last two photos of this review, the stem isn’t even on Henry’s bike?
  • 2 1
 you need to go home and vacuum that coat! hatehatehatehatehatehatehatehatehatehatehatehate
  • 3 0
 April in December.
  • 3 0
 BMX background mandatory
  • 2 1
 It definitely would have helped.
  • 2 0
 MTB flat land???
  • 2 0
 This is 100% how I thought it would turn out.
  • 3 1
 Did you even try it with an oval chainring and a trust fork?
  • 2 1
 Would the Rulezman stem be a little more in between this one and a regular stem?
  • 1 0
 Yes. I made a stem myself using steel tube, similar in geo to the rulezman one. This one is way too extreme
  • 2 0
 Bad Takes Enthusiast. Top-notch shithousery.
  • 1 0
 I don't think he read the install instructions......He put it on backwards!
  • 2 0
 Shopping cart handling for your mountain bike! No thanks.
  • 2 0
 Why only test it on the Spire?
  • 1 0
 I am going to get one and pair it with my new Saddle Spur seat. I will be all the rage on the trail!
  • 2 0
 Like a lifted truck for short guys.
  • 2 0
 This looks very similar to the handlebar risers seen on Snomobiles...
  • 2 0
 Or you could order some dope ape hangers and call it a day
  • 2 0
 You guys should have hired Dak to come in and ride gold stem thing.
  • 1 0
 Don’t give dak any ideas….
  • 1 0
 @henryquinney did you try this stem on a XL bike instead of your usual L size ?
  • 1 1
 I did not, but while that might fit better in terms of my body the longer reach would take even more weight off the front. An XL rear end, however... Ha.
  • 1 0
 "HR!" is a common proclamation in my workshop. Fan mail / HR 3rd notice, Henry?
  • 1 0
 Tell me you have terrible hip mobility without telling me you have terrible hip mobility....
  • 1 0
 I could maybe see merit to a 0mm length stem sitting on top of the steerer...but not with +5000 rise
  • 2 0
 Right in the teeth on a hard compression
  • 1 0
 I got a similar result with a 24" Ape hanger bar. My bike wheelie wheelies bitchin'!
  • 2 0
 when you put ape hangers on your dirt bike. this is fucking stupid
  • 2 0
 I prefer @briancahals review
  • 1 0
 Did anyone actually think this stem would make them a better rider?

Nah … we may be dumb, but we’re not stoopid Wink
  • 2 2
 @henryquinney You could have made the same points in a 3 minute video that would also be more attention-grabbing. Consider running this by a different editor for feedback.
  • 2 0
 Is it April again already?
  • 1 0
 So pretty much exactly what you'd expect. Rides like crap and it's ugly as all get out.
  • 1 0
 Make much-much shorter versions in black and then I would love to buy one..
  • 2 0
 I'll take a Limp Dick over this any day.
  • 2 0
 but. . . look at it. . .
  • 3 2
 Combine this with Cable Tourism for maximum audience engagement.
  • 3 1
 This looks dangerous.
  • 1 0
 Also likey requires a new fork
  • 1 0
 If you ran BMX bars it would look better and probably perform better, too.
  • 2 0
 Bmx bars for the win.
  • 1 0
 “Things I loved in 2023”
  • 2 1
 Hey Henry! Isn't your Ohlins spring a little too soft for your weight?
  • 1 0
 Of all the things that actually need fixed in this industry/sport .......
  • 3 5
 If nothing else, what BMB's RR stem has pointed out is that long reach and low stack has arrived at "too much" for most of us, and that it's time for the pendulum to swing back in a sane direction.
  • 1 0
 Um, no, it is exactly the stem's dimensions that are the problem, lol
  • 1 0
 Bad take Enthusiast actually made me dumb laugh.
  • 2 0
 Snowmobile posture.
  • 1 0
 So the future is HIGH and not SLACK anymore.
  • 1 0
 money waste for this company... they will not sell one
  • 1 0
 What if they made one of these that was half as tall?
  • 1 0
 Never mind the stem, what trail is that? It looks great.
  • 1 0
 Who would have thought.....
  • 1 0
 Did you try running the fork significantly softer?
  • 1 0
 I wanted it till I saw 400$ boom
  • 1 0
 Such a nice way of saying "No thanks"
  • 2 1
 shite
  • 1 0
 Mega Mega LOLZ!!!!
  • 1 0
 It's been Verdoned
  • 1 0
 But it's gold
  • 1 0
 Snaptastic.
  • 1 0
 Eff no
  • 1 0
 Kill it with fire
  • 3 5
 Why is this getting attention and press. Click bait garbage.
  • 1 0
 And comments to boot!
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