Shimano Updates 12 Speed Range with Shorter Cage XT Derailleur & New Cranks

 Not everyone wants batteries on their shifters and derailleurs?

 @wereonamissionfromgod: No, you're right, but we want the option.

 @wereonamissionfromgod: not everyone is right ????

 @wereonamissionfromgod:

If you're lucky enough to be chosen to buy one of Shimano's fancy Centennial books, I bet you can read all about cables!

 @gary-prime: Any source on that? All info I can find points to fishing being just 20% of their business. As far as I know its bikes first.

 @gary-prime: sometimes I make facts up as well.

 @SlodownU: 80% of their revenue (2019) came from their bike division. Do you understand how business works?

 @rceuk: Excuse you. They're not made up facts. They're alternative facts.

 @enurjetik: I reject your reality and substitute my own.

 @brandaneisma: shimano xtr electric already with pros, release is coming

 @rceuk: but 99% of them are great, 56% of the time ;-)

 @enduroFactory: Wireless this time at least? Plus, come on... XTR... By the time it trickles down even to XT, SRAM will have SX AXS drivetrains OEM on $2.5-3k bikes.

I like Shimano's quality and all, but you gotta admit they've been lagging behind in MTB drivetrains. They'd still be pushing triple chainrings if SRAM didn't force 1x on them.

 @bananowy: dont disagree with you, gx axs on many of the '22 models coming this june onwards while shimano with a better product marginally still playing catchup being wireless

 @enduroFactory: Facts. We can see even in the comments here that people are all over Shimano when they do it right and release something riders want. They just need to be quicker and maybe sometimes not just reactive.

Oh, and availability... I really wanted to put 12sp SLX or Deore on my wife's bike but no luck. Ended up with NX.

 @thenotoriousmic: Remove the way it shifts(wireless vs mechanical) and XTR is smoother vs xx1. It’s open the discussion as it’s marginal or rider preference on feel and the cassette ratios between the brands, all points mentioned in reviews and friends with both options.

 @enduroFactory: Ha no doesn’t and it’s not even close and I’m not surprised. Look at the difference in quality and design. Sram are way ahead.

youtu.be/LlDVpl6m7Hk

 @enduroFactory: sorry what was you saying? Keep defending their shitty products and they’ll have no incentive to improve. Look how much better and more importantly faster the xx1 shifts.

youtu.be/OR6lRHCFWhM

 @thenotoriousmic: defend? I ride sram so a neutral viewpoint from experience.

 @thenotoriousmic: Dude i went from full Sram XX1 groupset to full shimano XT groupset and the shimano shifts better to me. I had that EXACT Gold XX1 setup and now i run just regular ole XT. The XT Shifts better under load, shifts faster and is more reliable. A slight knock out of adjustment in the slightest way on the bgap on sram screws everything all up or even cable tension. My XT setup has much more tolerance for getting beat up. In all, im much happier on the XT setup vs the XX1 i was running for a year and a half. In that time i had to replace the xx1 deraileur because of slack

 @wereonamissionfromgod: lol. Just watch the two videos above. I run shimano on some bikes and sram on others. Shimano is cheap and does the job, feels crude and doesn’t last but it doesn’t cost much to replace so it doesn’t matter. Sram works better and lasts longer and always feels nicer to use.

 @thenotoriousmic: Thats just like your opinion man. I prefer the feeling of shimanos shifting. I like double downshifting. I like shifting under load when i need to. XX1 was smooth but even the slightest bump to the derailleur would knock it out of sync. And the damn thing stuck out 2 times further than my shimano mech. I also snapped an xx1 crankset from the groupset, then warrantied it and replaced with X01 and snapped that one too.

 @wereonamissionfromgod: agree with you there. Land one footed or hand a pedal on a stump and you can pull the alloy insert right out of the end of the crank.

 @gus6464: Clearly someone who has not tried AXS

 @leon-forfar: What makes Sram shift worse is the cassettes not derailleurs, no mayter how precise AXS is the chain ultimately is what interacts with the cassette and Shimano does that bit better. Though granted you can just use an AXS derailleur and XTR cassette...problem solved.

 @Danzzz88: Fair enough, but the statement "old trash Sram shifting" is just misguided. My mechanical XX1 eagle has been generally pretty flawless and certainly shifts very well. AXS will shift into the gear you want basically immediately every time without fail. Even if Shimano may shift "smoother" when everything is perfectly set up, it will still need more adjustment. I personally like the "clunkier" feel of Sram shifting to Shimano.

At the end of the day, the derailleur needs to shift into the gear selected. AXS does that job very well, very efficiently, and VERY reliably.

 I'd rather have Shimano XT 12 speed and better shifting from the cassette than AXS at any level and a painfully expensive rear derailleur to smash on a rock.

 @singleandluvinit: Placebo? Go shift under load with any SRAM group and see what happens? I've had my gx rd lock up when doing this on my xc bike. Do the same thing on Shimano 12sp and it just shifts no matter what. SRAM sounds like the rear is going to explode any time you put even just a little bit of weight under a shift.

 @gus6464: The GX mechanical rear derailleur is certainly not at to the X01/XX1 performance or reliability. I've never had an issue with shifting my XX1 in a normal riding situation. The fact that GX AXS seems to be exactly the same as the X01/XX1 AXS but with a steel cage means it should be pretty awesome for substantially less money.

 @Danzzz88: It was my understanding that the Shimano chain is the real game changer in shifting under load; can anyone speak to this with experience?

 @hamncheez: Yes Shimano > SRAM. In some ways it actually shifts better under load. Have ridden Shimano 12sp on a few eBikes, and on Shimano motors where there is some power lag (power doesn't cut off straight away) it shifts just as nice under load (if not nicer) than when pedaling on a non-eBike under almost zero load.

SLX HG+ 12sp literally shifts better than SRAM AXS. Backed up by: www.bikemag.com/gear/components/drivetrain/a-mismatch-made-in-heaven-xtr-axs

Unless you want the novelty of wireless shifting (clean cockpit, ease of install) you'd be misguided if you think you're getting better performance than an SLX Shimano 12sp (shifter + der is almost 6x cheaper!).

 @lennskii: Shimano may shifter "better", but the point of AXS is that the shifting remains problem-free as long as your battery is charged. Mechanical drive trains will need more maintenance more frequently to maintain that level of performance. THAT is the real win of AXS.

 @leon-forfar: the thing is that the lowest range of sram is awful, and it comes with most of the basic and mid range bikes

 @lennskii: Yes, but what makes the bigger difference, the chain or the cassette? In the context of mixing AXS in with shimano. Or are both needed to get the effect? (I've shifted an SLX 12 speed on an ebike too, and its amazing. I hit a steep uphill, far beyond what any mortal could clear without assist in way to high a gear, I dumped a bunch of gears and prayed, and down the shifting went and up the hill I went)

 @leon-forfar: only difference is not having a cable and housing that takes 5 min to replace or 1 min to lube. And the trade-off for lack of cable is having much more complicated and expensive shifter/derailleur. Lame

 @leon-forfar: Tried it, didn't like it much. Took it off my new bike, which had it OEM. Sold it to a friend. Watched him pick up a stick on his second ride and twist it up. No thanks. GX works fine. I know how to fix it if it's not working. When e-Derailleurs are as cheap as cable shifters, I'll consider it.

 @leon-forfar: Changing a cable takes less time than charging a battery. Baffles me why anyone would want to spend so much on such poorly made kit (assuming it’s as bad as mechanical GX) just to lose 1 cable.

 @gus6464: you’re defs right

 @davechopoptions: Not with how convoluted some internal routing can be!

 @leon-forfar: Why is it ok for the SRAM group that's not XO1/XX1 to be considered cheap crap and everyone accept it? Why is it that Shimano can make their entire 12-speed range perform the same with the only difference being weight? I rode a bike with the new Deore a couple of months ago and in a blind test there's no way I would be able to tell a Deore bike from an XT bike based on the shifting. Bike Mag even said the same thing about the new Deore that it's indistinguishable performance wise from XTR.

Why should everyone just accept that SX/NX/GX is cheap inferior crap and move on? The entire line should perform the same with the difference being the weight.

 @gus6464: While Deore performs almost as well as its higher-end siblings, it is much more fragile. I've seen a ton of Deore (and other 12 speed Shimano stuff for that matter) break pretty quickly. I agree that SX and NX are pure garbage, and overpriced for what it is. GX mechanical is meh, and needs a lot of adjustment. But that is not the point here. The point being made was that GX AXS performs basically as well as its XX1 and X01 counterparts, at a significant price slash. From basically all of the first ride reviews (surprised Pinkbike didn't do this), it outperforms EVERY mechanical drive train on the market.

@davechopoptions Everyone remembers to charge their cell phones, just plug it in overnight and never think about it, or if you can't do that, you can charge it in the car as you drive to the trailhead. And if you read more about GX AXS, you would find out that all it shares with its GX mechanical sibling is the name, and cheaper than X01/XX1 versions. It is MUCH better than the mechanical version, and with the built-in clutch overload and steel cage (cage and pulley wheel bearings are the only difference), could actually be stronger than it's higher end versions.

Again, anyone bashing it saying that it's just more Sram garbage has not tried AXS. "Assuming it's as bad as mechanical GX" is not helpful or factual at all.

 @leon-forfar: Except it doesn't outperform EVERY mechanical drivetrain on the market.

www.bikemag.com/gear/components/drivetrain/a-mismatch-made-in-heaven-xtr-axs

He specifically says that his AXS/Shimano mishmash experiment still DOES NOT shift better than SLX HG+ but it's still a lot better than pure AXS.

 @gus6464: It's all going to be opinion-based, which is fair. I read a review that said that GX AXS shifts better than mechanical Shimano. I'm not discrediting Shimano here. They make a great affordable drive train, and definitely have the lower end and bang for buck locked down. Shimano is a company that perfects products slowly over time, and Sram pushes the envelope with new and cool tech. Both companies have their place and their customers.

 @leon-forfar: My experience of Sram build quality is really poor - sloppy pivots way too early for example and everyone knows about their jockey wheel issues. What I was trying to get across is that putting expensive electronics into that level of build quality seems crazy to me. Given that it’s from the GX tier, it seems fair to assume the same lack of build quality, but it is an assumption - hence the statement.
People manage not to stay on top of Di2 charging, despite a single charge lasting months.

The cost of electronics required to make the tech work would need decent build quality to make it a decent investment. Time will tell whether this is up to the job.

 @gus6464: Well I don't know about 12 speed XTR vs Deore, but I know using the 12 speed XTR shifter back to back with the 11 speed XT shifter both on an 11 speed drivetraim that XTR shifyers are miles better than XT and always have been. They take less force, less lever throw and have a less sloppy more positive and light action to them. My 12 speed XTR lever with 11 speed switch is way better than the M8000 11 speed shifter when used on the same derailleur. Though I am comparing generations also so maybe 12 speed XT has improved a lot at the shifter. But it has been known for years that if you spend money on anything top of the range drivetrain wise in terms of Shimano, go for the XTR shifter as it males the biggest difference to performance and costs the least in comparison to say buying XTR vs XT cranks of which the difference you will notice whilst riding will be zero.

 @davechopoptions: I don't find changing a cable a big issue, not like you have to do it all the time and some people enjoy tinkering with their bikes and tuning them to optimal performance. But comparing the time taken to charge a battery vs changing a cable is a bit silly. The time might be longer but the effort is lower. You're cable won't replace itself over night will it by just plugging it in.

 @Danzzz88: I disagree - both are “maintenance” required at times by each respective set up. Changing a cable (even internal routed)takes 5-10 minutes. Haven’t had to do it on any of my bikes for at least 18 months though.

 @CheddarJack46 Likewise. I was noticing how goofy the length of my XT 12 spd cage is just the other day. A little too goofy. Time for 10-45 / short cage whenever I bend or break etc.

 with 27,5 wheels it is super easy - almost touching the ground

 Are you sure, because they come pre bent from the factory. Quite a few have "repaired" the factory twist from not knowing...

 @nickmalysh: One of my buddies joked the other day that this is the reason they all pushed 29 so hard, to make room for these freakishly long cages.

 I switched to the shorter derailleur after getting a sweet deal on an XTR. No damage to the cage yet, unlike like my last XT 12 speed derailleur, which was always nailing rocks and getting twigs caught in it. Recommended!

 I can totally recommend the 45-10 cassette! I use it with the 8120 derailleur, which I believe is alredy shorter. I swapped from 51-10 because a spare derailleur was not available.

 @pcledrew: actually I had similar thoughts, moving to 12sp relevant only when you move 29 wheels etc

 The 10-45 cassette seems like the perfect range, and combined with the shorter derailleur WOULD be my optimal setup.... except for the front chainring. I can get away with a 32 or 34 tooth up front when paired with a 50 tooth max cassette, but with a 45 tooth max on a 29er I'd need a 28t chainring. With 12 speed being the new standard, most bike manufacturers are optimising their anti-squat for 32+ tooth chainrings. With many designs you'll have too much top chaingrowth with the smaller rings (Yeti's design, as much hate as it gets, can deal with this since the antisquat drops as you go through its travel)

 As a user of the 10-45 12 speed XTR, I'm stoked on the shorter cage, however I find myself shifting more frequently than I want to be. I was really hoping for the 11 speed Hyperglide+ cassette to come out when current XTR was first released as I think this would have been a sweet setup. In other words, I prefer the larger gaps of 10-51.

 @robnow: I have both the Advent X 10 speed (11-48 ) and the E*thirteen 10 speed (9-42). I love the larger jumps. As soon as its in stock, I'm replacing one of them with Prime 9

 You can use an 11 speed XT GS derailleur with a 12 sped shifter on a 10-45 12 speed cassette.

youtu.be/jktgGzzZ8W8

 I’ve ripped 3 off in the span of 6 months! No way I would have gotten an CTR medium cage. Kinda salty I literally just ordered MicroShift because I’m sick of riding to defend my derailleur.

 Shimano's clutch is strong enough to where if you shorten the change by two links, there should be almost zero chain slap compared to sram. You could also put on an STFU unit to minimize chain slap.

 @Caleb2006: stfu for the win!

 @Frankie2021: future and plus tires???

 @Frankie2021: You can't future-proof a mtb. We should all acknowledge that by now.

 Article is slightly incorrect. 52mm (not 51mm) is for 135/142/148mm rear ends. 55mm is for 148 bikes with compromised chainring clearance at the chainstay. 56.5mm is for 157mm Superboost bikes.

 Some bikes can only clear a 32t max. If you want a 34 or 36, no dice.

 This is crafty marketing, of hiding a new crank standard behind your competitors big launch and dangling a shiny new rear derailleur hoping no one will notice, then all of a sudden next year your new frameset is CL55 only and that new chain line standard is someone else’s fault.
When did you actually last struggle to fit a chainring to a mtb because the stays were to fat? Or thought your bike would be better if the stays were up to 4mm wider. Other than some oval chainrings not fitting sometimes... but they don’t count as no one has purchased those since 2017. This hasn’t been a problem plaguing anyone.

 @Jay186: These chainlines have all been offered at XT, SLX and Deore level in 12spd kit since their launches. Nothing new - I guess the market for XTR cranks is smaller and so less demand for the wider CL options.
The 55mm CL gives bigger ring compatibility to bikes that quote small maximum chainring sizes based on the standard Shimano/Sram 52mm CL.

 @Jay186: Chainstays are really thin in that area where there’s a tire cutout and also a chainring cutout. Even a millimeter or two of extra width can add a lot of strength/stiffness.

 Not sure about the downvotes?!

Other sites have reported that "Deore-level crank and medium cage XT derailleur aren’t expected until early 2022".

 you mean 11-speed?

 @ridealltheb1kes: Nah, I snapped a 12 speed mech last fall too (although it was later in the year). This stuff has been available if you were willing to do a bit of a supply-chain dance to get it.

 @enki: I think he means 11 speed > 12 speed

I too snapped 2x shimano12s long cage derailleurs last year. Though I don't think short cage would have fixed it. I hit the parallelogram on rocks, not the swing arm. Never been an issue on short travel or non-boost bikes, but I think long travel 29er plus boost spacing makes it way too easy to smash the rocks when plowing down boulder fields

 @ridealltheb1kes:

Been on 12 speed Shimano XT as of last June. Two RD’s, two cassettes and three chains later until off bike this winter. I have found their 12 speed stuff too fragile and short wearing for me that went back to 10 spd (11-36) with Zee short FR RD, Saint Shifter, KMC 10spd chain. On moto bike now (Trek Rail) so don’t need the extra low gears with 12 speed

 @jgusta: just replaced my first snapped XT 12-speed RD. Made me instantly miss my flawless XTR 11sp on my last bike. Never had any issues except for in a major crash. I cant imagine running 12sp on 27.5 wheels, that bottom jockey wheel would be like a training wheel.

 Here's a hacked example for those who need some inspiration. 10spd short cage works... www.pinkbike.com/photo/15801598

 @ridealltheb1kes:
Yeah, 11spd XTR is good. Had same set up before damage the RD from hard wet wood stack as well. Was painful to lose that pricey RD since performed so well. I do love my $44 Zee RD though as well. With $44 Saint 10spd shifter, almost as good as XTR, but ever more RD pulley and cage clearance. Kind of feels good to backwards in tech. 12 spd XT when set up right does shift and work great, just too fragile and finicky for myself who hammers on shit

 Did you miss the electronic shifting news?

 I had that issue. Got my lbs to add a lot of grease and it’s been fine ever since...

 What issue is this?

 Yeah, there’s an o-ring upgrade kit.

 What did you have in mind? a 10,12,14,16,18,21,25,29,34,39,45 looks OK. It shares the same gears from 10-21 and then starts taking bigger steps. It has a 6t jump at the end whereas the 12sp 10-45 only has a 5t jump (and only one with those bottom 4 gears being very closely spaced which is why it appeals to me). You get a 19% jump from 21 to 25 which is more than I like, but you have the 20% jump of course in the highest two gears no matter what (but I don't care by the time I'm in my top gear).

You want the 11 for a wider chain? I think I'd prefer the 12, but that is for a new setup - I guess if you have a hub and chain already and you need it, I agree it would be nice if Shimano offered it. I look at a lot of available cassettes and the 12 sp 10-45 is the closest to what I would do that I have seen yet.

 ... aaand with 12-sp spacing please

 Well now, it´s shorter as in "less long" than actually short short so save on your celebrations...maybe new Saint will give us actual short though?

Then we throw the horns and do the beer spilling!

 2028, thanks to the Suez getting all wedged up.

 @joshroppo: if they would ship their stuff from Japan to North America through Suez it'd be their fault tbh

 @jzPV: The global supply chain is a lot more complex than that.

The containers that Shimano needs to use for shipping from Japan to NA could be backlogged thanks to the Suez being gridlocked, or the ship heading to Japan to make the NA trip might be on the north side of Africa. Not to mention potential raw materials, and just generally ships being put behind original Just-In-Time schedules.

Suez is going to cost billions in collateral mitigation costs.

 You could get 5 derailleurs from Shimano or one AXS. I mean everything has a downside.

 @kokofosho: What 5 Shimano derailuers are you getting for $370

 Jealous. Would love to see some tighter range cassettes that use 12-sp spacing (and ideally less than 12 gears). Sadly don't really exist.

 @Linc: have you had a look at Box Components? They have a range called Prime 9 which is a wide-spread 9 speed cassette. I looked into putting them on my budget hardtail as an experiment because I don't neecessary want 12 gears, I often downshift two gears at a time with my xt m8000 shifter anyway so was thinking that if I had the Box 9 speed then I get the same spread but less complexity and less decision making while riding.

 @wideopennewzealand: yeah but really like my 9100 shifter and derailleur. Ideal with be cassette-only solution.

 Are you adjusting your clutch tension after the break-in period?

 @barp: Once the grease breaks down in the clutch, it works poorly and squeaks. Many times it difficult to know that the clutch is squeaking and you spend a lot of time checking other things. Have to maintain it regularly. The SRAM clutch is virtually maintenance-free.

It surprises me that so many dislike SRAM so much. Both are good, but Shimano is more competitively priced.

 I do believe they’re working on one.