Video: We Discuss The Only True Standard In Mountain Biking | Pinkbike Magazine Show Ep. 8

May 11, 2023 at 8:46
by Henry Quinney  

High pivots, low-end puns and we definitely don't mention e-bikes. Specifically not the new offerings from Canyon. We also go into how chainstay length can affect handing as well as the one true standard in all of mountain biking.

Author Info:
henryquinney avatar

Member since Jun 3, 2014
336 articles

  • 42 1
 Back to YouTube hosted content? Did outside's funding for their start up video player idea get yanked? Can we get live feeds of the Outside board meetings where they read the comments on pinkbike and discuss?
  • 16 1
 Ha so salacious! Honestly, it's far more boring than that and is more about late-night uploads and slow internet.
  • 13 0
 Give the board meeting feed to GCN+ and the circle is complete
  • 45 3
 @henryquinney: can you please upload an audio only version of these, maybe just a link to the audio file on the page somewhere? Maybe you do and I've missed it?

This is EXACTLY the sort of thing I loved about the PB podcast, which has been dwindling in regularity and has become more and more about interviews with industry people I don't care about. I really miss the PB podcast of old, this is the sort of podcast content that I want!

I know I could watch it but I haven't got time to actually watch videos. The podcast got me through long drives, long runs, gym sessions, I listened when I cook etc. I would bloomin' love it if there could be an audio version of this. I realise I could put it on and ignore the video but that doesn't really work in those situations.

Can it be done?? Please oh please? I'm asking with my nicest manners!
  • 6 2
 @everythingscomingupmilhouse: It's so easy to just play the video and only listen. You should try that. I do it on my drive to work. Press play, put phone face down, instant podcast version.
  • 53 0
 @everythingscomingupmilhouse: We're going to end up adding the mag show to the PB Pod stream so people can just listen. And we were just talking about how the pod's going to get back to its roots a bit more in the coming weeks. Smile
  • 20 0
 @brianpark: Thanks - please see my moaning as enthusiasm for PB's content rather than a complaint!
  • 2 1
 @BobbyT925: Except this requires streaming, which is then eaten in with nearly one episode. Podcasts are so much easier - we're not saying don't do the Youtube show, its fine. Its just that there's zero reason NOT to upload these as mini-pods or just continue the pods. Can be all downloaded once at once source - done. No need to worry about cell service.
  • 2 1
 @brianpark: Glad to hear - the lack of the pod, shorter length and all that has been a huge (HUGE) bummer. I'm sure there's more to it than all 19 of us hardcore pod fans screaming how much we love it but honestly - the pod nearly defines PB for me these days so the lack of it has me not interested that much in PB material online.

Example: pod. ZZZZZZZZZ. Online content is fine, youtube vid is fine (I can't watch while working) but again, no podcast in 2 weeks? Makes me lose faith in PB.
  • 2 0
 @everythingscomingupmilhouse: use a youtube to mp3 converter. I've done it to a few of these talk shows so i can listen to them when i'm working!
  • 4 3
 @Grouty2505: I hear ya on this - and that's fine, but isn't is just easier if its a podcast? Done: no diddling, going to youtube, converting to mp3, saving & loading...yada yada. Its also not a big deal - the podcast was awesome & used to be every Thurs. Now its virtually dead & PB hasn't dropped one in 2 weeks (more if not tomorrow). I know how to use tech - just saying, no reason this can't also be dropped into pods and still be a youtube thing...I just don't have time to search for shit everywhere and mess around just hear 20 mins of jabber. Doesn't compute to me whatsoever why PB can't just have one f*cking pod a week and still drop all this as supplementary ...its not that hard a technology to deal with.
  • 1 2
 @brianpark: So.......when is this gonna happen? Two weeks later & still no PB pod, the last one was short & over 2 weeks from the previous. This is just me but I have little screen-time to even check PB much less video so pods and audio (driving / riding) are my gotos. I don't expect everyone is in this same condition but you guys have been saying for a month, or suggesting that the talk-show content could become pod content (seems like vice versa would work too) so I"m just curious when this is gonna happen? Starving out here...
  • 3 0
 @brianpark: I have loved the podcast. It is like hanging out after a ride with a beer and friends and shooting the breeze. Can we get back to that. I need some Mike Levy conspiracy theories with incredulous Kaz responses. I enjoyed all the guys and calls that were on it. It was the Seinfeld of mountain bike podcasts where each episode was a bit about something but really was just a mechanism for banter between characters we have grown fond of over the years.

Also I second this statement above: "This is EXACTLY the sort of thing I loved about the PB podcast, which has been dwindling in regularity and has become more and more about interviews with industry people I don't care about."
  • 2 0
 @everythingscomingupmilhouse: I'm just here to agree! Love the pod, but I couldn't give a shit less about brand folks spewing vapid corporate copy.
  • 1 0
 Exactly when did Levy 'Part Ways' with PBO?
  • 2 0
 @Mtn-Goat-13: I agree!! I demand more free entertainment in the medium that I find most convenient! More I say! And it better be free! Come on you monkeys, dance for my enjoyment!
  • 2 2
 @Chief2slo: Nothing free about it - PB getting paid well and staff are salaried - this is something they promoted and have done going on 4 years. WTH are you even referring to - they do the pod or they don't and as a pod fan I'm saying More Pod Please. Don't give a s*** if you like or not, just speaking up for what I like b/c when you don't - you don't have a chance of giving input.

But as far as paying in, I've bought $100s in PB gear, support trailforks, and have repeated asked if PB has was to fund the DH team, even the podcast but sure - I'm sure you know all about freeloaders here & who wants to support. Well thought out twinkles.
  • 28 0
 The only true mtb standard must be 5'11 always being the between sizes height
  • 8 0
 Despite being the height of all testers
  • 9 0
 And the average height of a white male - which, let's be honest, is the key sales demographic currently.
  • 1 0
 Comment gold. Glad I'm not the only one.
  • 1 0
 Isn’t this kinda a good thing for those around that height? It lets you easily size up/down for proportions/preference/riding style/etc, instead of being “trapped” in the middle of a size.
  • 1 0
 @crmgnon: Maybe? I feel that I'm either getting a bike that's too big or too small. Usually it works out fine.
  • 1 0
 The mediums are often also low stack whilst the large is often a bit too long so I do feel a bit between sizes now.
  • 27 0
 This thumbnail... good lord.
  • 6 0
 Triangle water bottles are awkward to drink from
  • 1 0
 Now that is my kind of click bait! Good work!
  • 1 0
 Kaz go Glug glug
  • 20 4
 I like the attempt to avoid saying "ebike". I personally hate when people call mountain bikes "Acoustic". As a disclaimer, I own and love my Levo as a complement to my mountain bikes. But it's basically a different activity. I'm sure it doesn't maintain the "hard core" vibe, but why don't we just call them what they are "Mountain Mopeds"????
  • 13 18
flag Mtn-Goat-13 FL (May 11, 2023 at 14:23) (Below Threshold)
 Its an entirely different activity - like checkers to chess? Nah - its mtn biking but doubling / tripling your miles, laps & fun. Its just bikes. I don't have an ebike (not legal in my area of western NC) but the day it is, I'm on it. Today I pedaled 1.5 hrs / 2500 vertical to get to the top of a big drop and was done w/ that in 8 mins. I've done this for 33 years - I"m no little b****. If I can turn 2500' into 7500 in a day - why the hell not? That's not an "entirely different activity" - that's just way more f*cking fun. You don't need to apologize for your Levo...I've still never ridden one but everyone I see on one is busting 3-4x more miles and drops a day than I am, and there's zero wrong w/ that - pro's, adaptives, longtime riders who are injured - even younguns at the parks. Its just bikes.
  • 13 2
It’s just Mopeds
Motor + Pedals = Moped
Stop trying to erase history & re name a
Moped an e bike It’s not a bicycle Period
It’s a MOPED
  • 2 6
flag Mtn-Goat-13 FL (May 12, 2023 at 7:41) (Below Threshold)
 @Durtwrx: Gotta say that's some funny shit... and whoever thumbs'd you down is Russian. Damn, its just words. Never seen so many Russian / Chinese loving censorship twats anywhere in my life...

Kinda hard to argue against this except - I'll be getting one the minute Pisgah announces ebikes are legal. I'll go as far to say all Pisgah ebike riders are Moped'ers right now until I Get mine.
  • 3 2
 @Mtn-Goat-13: I love that you've never ridden one and still have definitive opinions on eMTB's. Trust me, ebikes, especially full power, big battery heavy bikes feel really different than traditional mountain biking. It honestly feels like a blend between a mountain bike and a 250cc dirt bike on a trail. Landing jumps has that solid planted suspension feeling like a dirt bike, and the workout is completely different.
I love my Levo, trust me, I feel zero need to apologize. Despite loving it, it's definitely different, and personally, my ego isn't threatened to say that I'm having a great time riding my mountain moped. I don't know why everyone is so scared to say that they are different activities/sports.
  • 2 4
 @Davemk: I love that anyone would bother to thumbs down your post above (hello Russia!) but I've actually ridden one - just never owned one. Wasn't typing my brain out clearly. Loved the feel of it, and it was a bike park so the landings did feel more solid. Most of the world isn't even having this conversation though, none of the pros, adaptivives, builders, etc - this is strickly a privelege white people N.America / 1st world problem.

My biggest concern as an ecologist (which 99% of riders dont seem to care about) is I would still is impacts to wildlife - we know this is an issue even w/ regular mtn bikes. There are documented impacts to breeding for many species within trail vicinities, even quite some distance away and clearly, direct impact deaths to smaller wildlife (I've killed countless moles, chimpmunks, squirrels, even possums, hit a bear cub once and even barely bunny-hopped a fawn that wouldn't move) - not even counting turtles, amphbians, a few birds, etc. Trails don't automatically mean nature improves even if trails are fine.

Still disagree they're that different. I'd say they're 99% the same, just getting less exhausted on the ups, covering more ground, getting more miles & drops and having more fun. Seems like its' even more mtb than mtb and a huge f*ck off to bitches that wanna gatekeep & say I'm not biking...have probably done 15-20 million (or more vertical feet climbing in 33 years, 40-50,000 trail miles and I aint' even tired...I just want more of it.
  • 1 0
 @Durtwrx: preach it brother!
  • 1 0
 @Mtn-Goat-13: is the 13 in your name your birth year?
  • 1 0
 @Peskycoots: I was taking a stab at your age.
  • 11 1
 Where's Levy? He okay? Workplace misconduct? lol
  • 3 0
 Peculiar cheerful A sexy mike levy ride by the bicycle
  • 1 0
 my question too! mia for a month now
  • 5 3
 I’m going with rehab
  • 3 0
 @masonguy: you missed the syllable count on your first line - it's 5-7-5
  • 9 0
masonguy's haiku
Crashed and burned in public view
Have another go
  • 4 0
 Same thing happened last year. He’s still in the show intro. Probably just taking a break before the busy season begins. Canadians just be like, “Going on holiday for 6 weeks. In the meantime, work can F off.”
  • 14 0
 curling camp.
  • 10 0
In defense of guy
Merican’ Peculiar
Might read Pe-Cule-Yur
  • 2 0
 Did he get poached by Escape Collective? They are expanding their coverage of XC racing, and with Levy's unrivalled access to Nino (they are best friends, after all) I could see him as a very valuable asset to that group.
  • 7 0
 He has his own private island somewhere, living off the sweet sweet royalties from his downcountry trademark.
  • 1 0
 Unpaid internship somewhere?
  • 1 0
 @lancemountainbike: Hopefully we don’t start seeing reviews from him testing extra small frame sizes on said island
  • 1 0
 @brianpark: With all the curling camps he's been too, I would expect to see him in the next winter Olympics.
  • 2 0
Curling butterfly
Flits down icy lanes, joyous
He sure likes that brush
  • 2 0
 Band camp?
  • 6 0
 All this talk about standards and noone has mentioned 1/2" pitch chains. Even pedal threads have a different size on kids bikes, but one chain link has been the same length for everything for about 100 years so far
  • 2 0
 Don’t give them ideas
  • 5 1
 the ONLY true standard in the bike industry is the oh so low prices for everything
600 $ for A wheel is so affordable!
50 $ for grips, so sheap I bought 3 sets
can't wait to pay 400 $ for a seat post
Biking is the cheapest sport ever
  • 4 0
 This reads like a trail clones post, it's just missing the 10/10 ms paint art.
  • 2 0
 Sounds like you're not hunting down the killer gear at good prices: hunt wheel sets at $450 (solid stuff), Lizard skins north shore grips $30 (2 for $50 on sale) - last years. Oneup or PNW droppers at $200 for full 210mm though maybe you dont' need that for freeride. Not ot mention deals for used gear (which if you inspect, can be killer killer deals)

Speaking of - if you wanna just ride for free, you picked the wrong sport. Maybe you meant Free-loading?
  • 4 1
 Chainstay lengths need to have much more variation for rider height. My approx rule of thumb is take your height and divide by 4. If you want it livelier and more playful then divide by anything up to 4.25. All we get at the moment is taller riders complaining the chainstays are too short and shorter riders complaining they are too long.
  • 4 2
 They need to figure out "ideal" front/rear center ratios and keep them consistent across the sizes for a given category (Enduro trail, etc)
  • 6 2
  • 8 1
 But riders of the same height have vastly different arm spans, leg lengths, torso lengths, etc. How about bike manufacturers make bikes that they think are good and individual consumers choose from the many, many options available to them instead of bitching about a couple of mm and whether or not a brand makes it "size specific" enough? I want them in a certain range for the size I might buy, but I could care less if the other sizes that I'll never buy have the same or different chainstay lengths.
  • 3 2
 @Bahh: their chainstays are ridiculously long and grow more throughout the travel. They might care about the ratio but to me it is off
  • 1 0
 @VtVolk: that's why I said "approx rule of thumb".
But there aren't "many many options available". How many bikes are there with sub 420mm chainstays to suit people under 5'8"? Pretty much zero. How many bikes are there with 460mm chainstays to suit Henry? Again almost zero.
You may not fall outside the 5'11" sweet spot that 99% of bikes are designed for but other people do.
  • 3 0
 You cannot draw rules about CS in isolation it just doesn't make any sense since it is not a metric that is related to your body (unlike top tube, reach and seat tubes). CS need to be considered in a global bike geometry. First thing to consider is front to back center ratio, at SAG. The balance of a bike is dictated by the position of your center of gravity, in more practical terms, where your BB is compared to your 2 tire patches. Why at SAG ? Because depending on the amount of travel you have and your suspension design your ratio can evolve quite dramatically as you go through your travel. Now what is an ideal ratio ? Hard to tell but I find bikes with a ratio over 1.9 to be needing unnecessary upper body movement to make them turn. Personally I consider that around 1.7 at SAG is ideal. Below 1.6 might be too front heavy.
Now that teaches us few things, first, not all bikes would need longer CS. The biggest culprit of 1.9 and above ratios are bikes with below 440mm CS, reach above 490ish and head angles below 65deg. Obviously fork length also play a part and due to that travel has an indirect effect. Second, it also means that many bikes in size XS, S or even M have ratio at 1.7 or below but those rarely get tested, but basically a person buy these sizes cannot use most bike reviews that test size L which has a completely different balance than what we will get.
Another point to consider is stack and BB height. Most people don't understand that those two values (mostly stack) are the culprits for front heavy bikes that usually are also terrible in the steep forcing you into the back seat and making you feel like your reach is too long. A bike with a very long wheelbase, F/R center ratio and "high" BB and tall stack will be more playfull than a bike with a conventional wheelbase, short CS and low stack and BB.
And yeah Forbidden is the only bike company getting it with the F/R center ratio. And not Reach to Rear Center ratio like it was stated in Pinkbike article about the new Druid. Just goes to show how much the author understands Geo ...
  • 1 0
 @G-Sport: Take a look at Orange bikes
cs 447 thru 465 the archived 329 DH had
469mm cs
  • 1 0
 @Durtwrx: There may be the odd option longer, but there isn't a huge choice, and for me, getting a bike with 415mm chainstays meant heavy modification. The end result is super though, I can bunnyhop properly.
  • 1 0
 @Balgaroth: If reach IS related to your height, then your "front to back centre ratio" is largely driven by reach so is ALSO related to height and if you want your 1.7 ratio then VOILA chainstay length (which is essentially rear centre length) IS related to height.
  • 1 0
 @G-Sport: yes but it is indirect. If you are 1m90 you will never fit a bike with 350mm of reach, weather with proportional CS or not, similarly if you have bike with >490mm reach weather your bike has appropriate CS or 430mm CS you will fit the bike and will be able to ride it to a point. CS are not intrinsically tied to the rider size otherwise 99% of the bikes on the market would not be usable. But yes in an ideal world they should be related to size, regardless of the preferred F/R center ratio. Hopefully we will see this happen in the next few seasons.
  • 4 1
 @brianpark @henryquinney @mikekazimer - trying my best to catch all these and I'm def'ly wanting to be diplomatic but...these do not at all rival or replace the podcast. SUPER bummed the cast seems to be withering and dying here the past 2 months, seemingly since Taipei and maybe its just a lull w/ Levy doing his ice shuffleboard or whatever but damn...the PB cast got me (and maybe 100s of us) through the pandemic and has literally been one of the bright spots in the week for years now. Yeah, I can try & goto youtube & stream this or whatever, but its not the same.

Here's to hoping you guys will add these to the pod (they're so erratically timed & without pod-like themes that I can't even remember one of them btw) - I'm assuming there are lots of us out here that love / loved and miss the pod... so is it just done in lieu of the youtube thing or what are we looking at. It feels like PB died on me since Taipei when these fired up & the pod virutually ended.
  • 2 1
 I concur!
  • 2 1
 I've never listened to a pod but have seen all these as I can watch them on my TV whilst eating dinner. Along with all the other MTB content I consume. I much prefer this format.
  • 2 0
 @mcozzy: Oddly - I hear you on that (though you're missing out on the pod, seriously - its usually a trip). I My point is that PB doesn't need to disperse this kind of content around in various formats that have to be hunted down when it can easily be consolidated on the pod and likewise - the pod could be consolidated / cast on youtube (though no video for any of those so far). I don't see why doing it both was is a problem - far lesser funded people do this.

PS - seriously, check out the podcast. Most take me 2-3 listens to full get, esp when it gets techincal (which is not all pods) and I often go back thru the list to the beginning and cherrypick pods that sound interesting...especially lately as the pod seems to have been killed & buried by PB for reasons unknown and unexplained to the diehard pod fans.
  • 5 0
 "The only true mtb standard?"
I'm guessing pedal thread size.
  • 1 0
  • 1 0
 Grips diameter?
  • 2 0
 roxtar (8 hours ago)
"The only true mtb standard?"
"I'm guessing pedal thread size."

Bike industry: we can do something about that!
  • 1 1
 Nipples (spoke)
  • 1 0
 @JDFF: "Nipples (spoke)"
Not even close.
More choices there than you can count.
In my shop I had four different standard type spoke wrenches and 6 internal (from the rim bed) screwdriver style spoke wrenches.
That's not including the stupid one-off ones some manufacturers required. (Yeah, Mavic, I said STUPID)
  • 5 1
 Could've easily watched another 10 minutes of water bottle chat - so good!
  • 3 0
 Agreed! Best segment and show yet
  • 2 0
 Same here! The weird stuff that never gets discussed elsewhere is the best.
  • 2 1
 "I don't like short poems. So why am I reviewing a haiku, you may wonder? Well, I liked the title - 'Mike Levy'. It went down hill from there."
  • 1 0
 “Riding your old 89 Norco memories” because everything is a bonus after those great experiences.
  • 2 0
 Water bottle talk was the best, more please, @henryquinney. Thank you
  • 2 0
 I can't believe they moved on! All that chainstay talk was really dull!
The only error was @henryquinney drawing attention to the double entendres - those things need to be completely dead pan.
  • 3 1
  • 2 1
 I particularly enjoyed the ebike chat.
  • 1 0
 Round Wheels
  • 1 0
 Out of round wheels
  • 1 0
 Idk my ethirteen wheels are pretty Octagonal.
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