Video: How To Roost With Dylan Forbes

 This.

 Yes I'd much prefer to see and fix up after a nice roost rather than chasm sized braking bumps

 @CoffeeHouseMedia: Thank you! Who thought fun could be so controversial! I just love the righteous indignation from people who never swing a shovel and presume to know what builders think - I build to destroy, repair, repeat.

 Not much worse than the massive breaking bumps that novice riders make with improper braking really.

 @mtbgeartech: Kinda different though. One is intentional, the other is unfortunately just part of the learning curve.

 @jlawie: True. I don't advocate using the gnarbro schralp.

 @trycycles: Sounds like you're quite and experienced trail builder. Thanks for the input.

As for a filter, a giant drop at the beginning of the trail would be both effective and fun to watch as it "filters" riders of less than adequate skill level.

 @mtbgeartech: To be honest that is exactly what I mean by a filter! Trails should be designed to appeal to different levels of skill. Higher skill level trails should have a filter feature that looks so scary to a beginner that they don't even want to go there!

 It was never cool!

 @trycycles: Yeah that must be why A-line and the other flow trails at Whistler develop braking bumps, because they're terribly designed........

 Uhh...it’s been said, but mortar sized brake bumps created by noobs are much worse.

Any builder I know encourages their trails to be ripped, not gently caressed.

And schralping turns is fun...anyone saying it’s just done to look cool is missing out...

That’s like saying whipping is only done to look cool...


Bunch of overly vocal barrel virgins

 @scott-townes: I wouldn’t say they’re poorly designed, but it kind of is exactly why they’re full of huge brake bumps...

It’s common sense that if A line opened with a mandatory big gap jump, and you couldn’t access it otherwise, the berms would be in much better shape.

Thing is, these trails are built for intermediates to “send it”, and brake bumps are just a necessary evil, otherwise you’d have a park full of trails hardly anyone could ride.

I’m an elitist prick, but I love this sport and having just gotten back from whistler, it’s awesome seeing all kinds of riders pushing their limits and having fun on A line

 @trycycles: yeah, clearly you’re a much better builder than the whole of Whistlers crew.How come those guys never thought of that, its so simple! #facepalm

 I guess when your paying close to $800 for a whistler bike park season pass you can ride the corners how ever you want. And from experience I have to agree with comment below improper riding by novice riders creating breaking bumps is much worse.

 This is the most amusing conversation I've seen a while.

 @mtbgeartech: @nvranka: @trycycles braking bump have nothing to do with trail design, suspension or experience level. There has been research into this and they found is was actually bouncing from whatever is using the trail. They did an experiment on sand with a heavy duty rigid steel bulldozer blade and the bumps still formed. It is due to the nature of operating on a non rigid surface and speed.

The tire or blade, or whatever pushes down on a surface and bounces along no matter how rigid and the bumps are a product of speed, that is how all movement is created by bouncing along, even rolling objects. So nothing but decreasing speed will stop braking bumps. If we all agree to go under 5km/hr up at the bike park, we can enjoy trails with no bumps!

 @Bomadics: what about not braking?

 @CoffeeHouseMedia: you clearly didnt understand what @Bomadics is saying...nothing to do with brakes

 @tuumbaq: @CoffeeHouseMedia exactly, it is speed NOT braking. Braking makes them worse mind you, but they would form without the braking.

 @Bomadics:

“braking bump have nothing to do with ... experience level.”

“Braking makes them worse mind you”

Need I say more?

 @nvranka: OK I typed too fast, what I meant was braking doesn't CAUSE braking bumps. Your hair splitting doesn't change that you were mistaken about the design/braking bumps correlation though.

You guys were all spouting of like you actually knew what you were talking about!

 @Bomadics: you don’t read very well either, do you?

Please see above.

 They're called braking bumps... not speed bumps...

 @deco1: If everyone that regularly rides Whistler learned how to properly roost then maybe you all could learn how to do the 2 wheel drift because all of your corners will feel like riding at Mammoth!

 @CoffeeHouseMedia: Look into it man, don't believe the hype!

 @nvranka: you are correct sir and I own it going too fast again! You are still incorrect, about experience and brake bumps though!

 @CoffeeHouseMedia: Here I'll make it easy for you, read this

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/07/090707131834.htm

 @Bomadics: comparing motor vehicles to bicycles....duh. One is caused by acceleration (washboards-motor vehicles) and the other deceleration (breaking bumps-bicycles). hence the name as to decelerate you brake and that makes the bumps.

 Back in the day when the majority of riders raced DH on hardtails there were no braking bumps. You try and tell that to the young people of today and would they believe you? Noooo!

 @Bomadics: I do see your point though as in theory it will happen with any force over a surface. in practice it happens more or is noticeable with greater force....acceleration and breaking.

 I think you have to act responsibly. The boys aren't out in some virgin nature reserve, they are at Whistler bike park. People go to Whistler and pay $100 (ish?) for a lift pass so they CAN roost. That's the freaking point of going to a bike park.

Just like learning martial arts - you practise in the dojo and for self defense only. Common sense. You don't learn karate to kick the shit out of 80 year old grand mother's out by the curb at the local strip mall.

 @privateer-wbc: Yeah, that's because you learn kick boxing to kick the shit out of grandmas. Quit being silly.

 @Bomadics: Thats why I see all the BRAKING bumps on the straights, the lead into jumps, the exit of turns etc... oh no, they are in the BRAKING zone before the turn, strange.... Nice try on quoting an unrelated issue that occurs on roads in soft base materials though

 @scott-townes: I was being facetious... obviously. But you know what I mean. Trying to tie km the sensei quote in from the video and be cute...

But you know what I mean.

There is a place and time, and quite often you pay for it - like the bike park, which employs people to maintain it. Roosting is job security for bike park workers, worst case, lol.

But definitely not good etiquette in other places. That should be obvious.

But there is always some tool who's going to use their new found karate punch on some poor undeserving grandma. Unfortunately

 @tuumbaq: Not sure why this has to be a comparison, but if you think so then that's cool, clearly I am a better trail designer / planner than the build crew in Whistler.
For the record I think the trail crew there does a good job but thats not what this is about.
Whistler is the biggest bike resort out there but that doesn't make it the best, it just means it has more money to throw at trail repair each season.

 @scott-townes: Thats seems like sound reasoning Scott. If there were filters in place that ensured riders with inadequate skill level didn't use certain trails I know there would be a reduction in braking bumps.
To be fair Whistler is. a pretty unique place, the biggest MTB resort in the world by far, the sheer amount of traffic Whistler sees in one season far exceeds most bike parks. Unfortunately globally speaking most purpose built trail is pretty garbage in terms of being sustainable, well thought out, designed and planned. I believe part of the reason for this is that most trail builders are passionate and skilled mountain bikers, however their skill level 'prevents' them from being able to design trail objectively and meet the needs of the intended user group. Whilst it easy to blame riders for not having a high enough skill level to not over brake into turns it is the fault of the trail designers, builders and marketeers of resorts not providing good enough beginner and intermediate offerings.

 @JasonG13: duh did you read the article?

 @JasonG13: It's not my point, it's physics.

 @trycycles: Read that article and use your brain FFS!

 @trycycles: you guys are clueless and beyond help! Read and understand basic physics, don't blame poor riders or trail builders. I am amazed you all believe you know more about trail building than Whistler, complete arrogance!

 @trycycles: LOL have you ever built a trail before?

 @trycycles: over braking what exactly is that as you define it. When a World Cup racer comes into a corner they brake late and hard, is that making bigger bumps, or is the Joey that brakes early but much more gently?
An inexperienced rider will brake with less force than a fast rider, but by your definition then the fast rider in contributing to the braking bumps more than the Joey?

 @trycycles: it's not unrelated, open your mind. Your tire is like a stone skipping across the surface, those bumps are in braking zones because braking makes thems worse, they are not CAUSED by braking! Or are you saying that riders, trail builders and the scientists are wrong and you are right, and that the trail builders who do it everyday are the dumb ones, and not you? That's an incredibly arrogant viewpoint.

 @trycycles: so enlighten us then, what is Whsitler not doing that you would do, in respect to trail design? You solve this issue for Whistler and you could head up the bike park crew!

 @trycycles: not many braking bumps on green runs, how do you explain that?

 @Bomadics: I am a little busy building trails in the rest of the world but it would be awesome to work with the Whistler trail crew.
What would I do different? I would reduce the grade (steepness) of the beginner trails, I would include grade reversals before turns so that gravity does some of the braking for the rider.
I would also use a soil stabiliser to assist in the compaction of the trail surface / binding of the surface material.This technique reduces maintenance and gives the builders more opportunity to create new rad trails, rather than fixing the existing ones.

 @Bomadics: The green trails are not as steep, right? Thats one of the reasons they are suitable for beginners. Riders are going at a comfortable speed for their skill level. This means they don't over brake / panic brake which causes less erosion.

 @scott-townes: Over a hundred trails in 25 different countries. How many have you built?

 @trycycles: what exactly is over braking?

 @trycycles: you my friend are lost in your own ego, but hey enjoy yourself up there above the rest of of morons, so glad you took time from you bust day to talk down to us peons, thanks your majesty!

 @trycycles: you can't fix something you don't even understand!

 @trycycles: grade reversals, giggle!

 @trycycles: panic braking is the same as late braking right, like racers do?

 @Bomadics: When a rider is going faster than they feel comfortable, but not the intended trail speed. It is really common for beginners to brake more than they really need to on steep trails because they are scared of crashing. A perfectly valid response. This goes back to my original point that many riders enter trails above their skill level (because there is no filter).

 @Bomadics: You're welcome. Glad you recognise my brilliance.

 @Bomadics: No it's not. Late braking is not the same. Racers brake late to carry as much speed as possible. Beginners brake more to slow down and not carry speed. Very different.

 @Bomadics: I never said I know more about trail building. I am saying you are wrong stating breaking does not cause the effect known as breaking bumps. Carry on champ.

 @trycycles: yes very different, racers apply MORE force into he soil when braking, therefore INCREASE the bumps.

More speed = more energy, there is no other formula in this case, the soil does not understand inexperience, only more force or less force.

 @Bomadics: You know the space between the features on A-line, where it goes down, then up. Those are grade reversals. I can see why they make you giggle.

 @Bomadics: @trycycles: This is the best use of your time?

 @Bomadics: So braking causes braking bumps then? I thought we had established this was caused by speed?

 @unrooted: There's nothing wrong with debate. Especially when it moves way off where things started! It is also an amusing way to pass a few seconds between the office work I am doing today! No hard feelings to anyone, hugs to Bomadics.

 @trycycles: Look have you done any research on this? Do you actually have any evidence to back up your argument. I posted a clear well written article on experiments that show these bumps are cause by objects bouncing along a surface, whether sand, solid or even metal as train rails also suffer from "braking bumps".

What evidence do you have that "inexperience" causes these bumps. By your own argument the steeper the trail the more bumps there should be, that is clearly not so.

Some of the worst braking bumps in Whistler are on Heart of Darkness, and on almost level ground in some cases. Because the ONLY way to eliminate these bumps is to go very slow, look it up, PLEASE just read something other than Pink Bike and open your mind just a little bit to new information, don't believe me go look it up!

 @trycycles: Actually they call those jumps, go look it up.

 @trycycles: Braking increases the size of the bumps,it does not cause them go look it up.

 @JasonG13: Go look it up, don't believe me, read something other than Pink Bike

 @unrooted: Dude, this is fun, go look it up!

 @unrooted: I work for myself, I can do whatever I want all day just to annoy you!

 @trycycles: Yes absolutely, I love debating useless crap like this! It is more about how to communicate than actually resolving anything! Hugs right back to @trycycles

 @Bomadics: The 'research' I have done is practical. Trails with problems with braking bumps that I have re-designed with lower grades and the inclusion of grade reversals suffer less than they originally did, even with increased rider numbers.
One may ask if you have done any research into this matter as well? or rather you read an article online but have misinterpreted it as being something other than what it is. The article you keep quoting is about roads on soft surfaces, sand, snow etc. A properly compacted trail should not be a soft surface. You may also note the article is referring to powered transport / items that are continually applying drive to the given surface, yes even trains and hard drives...
The original post where this discussion started stated that braking bumps are caused by 'noobs' that trash the trails. I pointed out that often this is because riders are on un-sustainable trails and trails above their skill level. My point was actually, don't blame the riders, blame the builders for not adequately filtering riders at the start of the trail, ensuring the skill level matches that of terrain. Once again you made assumptions based on what you wanted something to mean, rather than what is actually written.
Steeper trails by their nature attract more skilled riders, hence less it he way of braking bumps.
The factor not mentioned by either of us yet is the volume of traffic on a trail, the more popular trails (not as steep, as most riders are not at a professional / high skill level) are where the increased number of braking bumps occur.
Experience is not the only factor involved here, soil type, level of compaction, visitor numbers etc all play a part. You asked me for some suggestions as to how it could be possible to reduce braking bumps, I proved you with several practical solutions that do actually work out in the real world, you on the other hand keep quoting from an internet article about a different subject matter.
Your arguments are confused and inconsistent, braking bumps caused by speed but not by braking, although they are also caused by braking...World Cup riders braking later but not as often causes more problems than high volumes of slower riders braking before every turn...etc. One assumes you have some in-depth 'research' that you can refer to on this point as well.
Frankly it is rare that I post on Pinkbike, I had some time to kill between a bike park build and an event course design. My mind is full open to new ideas but I prefer to focus on those relevant to the subject matter.
Can you suggest where I can learn about opening my mind and not only reading Pinkbike, I am struggling to find where I may look this up.

 @Bomadics: The joys of self employment / occasional boredom! Keep living the dream!

 @trycycles: You can look stuff up on the internet I think, and no worries, enjoy your life, I am not here to change your mind as I clearly see that is not possible, as your a self described better trail builder and designer than the Whistler trail crew.

I am here because my computer is churning out large design files that take time to process as it is mural for a sales office in 24 story building, I may be self employed but far from bored!

 Holy shit just go ride you bike. We pay bike park trail builders for a reason. Don't go roost up your local trails with no intent to help fix them or build your own slide track, but utilize that $60 day pass and skid, roost, slide all you want

 @CoffeeHouseMedia: freaking exactly.

 This. You won my internet cookie for today. Congratulations!

 Hahah so fucking true

 For people saying it destroys trails, I once roosted the exact same spot in a gravel wet parking lot for like 30 min while waiting for the lightening lift hold to pass, by the end it made a mini berm and you could hit it faster.

 And 'flow it, don't bro it" as well.

 . . .and eyes. .

 the band or the berm?

 @jarrod801: Why not both?

 Cause its fun...and we mountain bike for fun? What a stupid comment

 roosting is done without brakes, clears gravel from the pocket and pushes dirt uphill. Braking in the turn is much worse for the trail even if it isn't visually noticeable. Now go take your meds.

 Schralp on a climb if you wanna impress! Lame skills.

 Are you going to be putting that clinic on?

 Good thing the video isn't about skidding then.

 @Photo-John Are you Photo-John from MTBR in like 2002? Mudsluts?

 @endlessblockades: yup. Same Photo-John.