Bike Check: Joe Connell's Orange Stage 6 EWS Race Bike with a Dual Crown Fork

Jul 9, 2021 at 2:58
by James Smurthwaite  

BIKE CHECK
Joe Connell's
Orange Stage 6
Photography by Kike Abelleira

Should enduro racers be using dual crown forks? It's one of the big tech questions we've seen raised in the past few years of the sport and it looks like Formula have taken one big step towards making that a reality. First unveiled in June, the Italian brand's prototype dual crown isn't a fully beefed up downhill fork but a hybrid that instead brings a tougher, stiffer chassis to its enduro fork, the Selva R.

Now, for the first time, we're seeing it on a racer's bike in La Thuile. Joe Connell signed with the Orange Factory Team this year and has already tasted success this year with a third-place finish in the Trans Madeira. For La Thuile, he's running the Stage 6 with the new fork alongside a bevy of Formula, E13 and Burgtec parts. His initial impressions of the fork are strong with noticeable improvements in stiffness and a lockout to prevent bobbing on the climbs.

Let's get into all the details on the bike and some more info on the fork below.
Rider Name // Joe Connell
Age: 27
Height: 188cm
Weight: 85kg
Instagram: @joe__connell

Orange Stage 6 Details
Frame: Orange Stage 6, XL
Shock: Formula Mod: 550lb/in spring, +10 compression, +9 rebound
Fork: Formula Protoype Dual Crown: 75psi, no tokens, +5 compression, +7 rebound
Wheels: E13 LG1: 29" front/rear
Tires: Michelin DH22: 2.4", 18psi front // 2. 4", 22psi rear
Drivetrain: Shimano XT/ E13: 9-50t cassette, 32t chainring
Brakes: Formula Cura 4: 203mm rotors, front/rear
Cockpit: Burgtec: 780mm bar width, 30mm rise
More info: orangebikes.com

Single pivot and probably always will be. Orange's winning formula dates back a long time and they show no sign of changing that.

A dialled shock is more important than ever on a single pivot design and Joe runs his Formula Mod with a 550lb/in spring.

Upfront is the dual crown fork that has been the subject of a lot of scrutiny this week. The fork uses 35mm stanchions and the same damper you'd find in the Selva R fork, which is highly tuneable thanks to the Compression Tuning System (CTS). The main difference apart from the 180mm travel and extra machined crown is that the rebound tune is more open. This design weighs in at 2300g with a target weight of 2270g for the final version, which is lighter than some heavy-hitting single crown forks. For all the info on the fork and its release, click here.

The drivetrain comes from e13. Joe is running a 9-50t wide-range cassette that offers 556% range.

A 32T chainring is fitted to help in the high alpine of La Thuile

One of the most important bits of kit here in La Thuile this weekend.

Joe is running some heavy duty Michelin rubber with DH22 tyres front and rear. They are both 2.4" in width and Joe runs them at 18 and 22psi.

The telltale sign of some extra Cushcore protection.

Burgtec are on cockpit duties. Joe says he runs his with, "bars rolled back so there’s no upsweep."

Joe runs thicker than normal grips for his big hands.

Formula provide the brakes as well as the suspension. These Cura 4 calipers are paired with 203mm rotors and use organic pads.


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260 Comments

  • 251 41
 Quite impressive to see that after so many years of inconsistent and ugly looking welds on Orange bikes they never get any better.
  • 109 20
 I heard they hired Stevie Wonder to their welding department.
  • 93 12
 @pensamtb: this is false, he is the weld inspector.
  • 60 6
 Don't see anything wrong with the ones in this article
  • 85 13
 Here we go again, arm chair experts coming in thick and fast!
  • 47 15
 Who actually cares what a weld looks like when you are pinning it down a hill?
  • 33 12
 @russthedog: sorry. I forgot people don’t joke on Pinkbike.
Lighten up Francis
  • 14 2
 @russthedog: not sure what the issue with the comment is? Those ain’t no Nicolai standard welds
  • 42 2
 The look of the welds are the last thing that would concern me seeing an Orange bike.
  • 3 23
flag Ben69007 (Jul 9, 2021 at 5:30) (Below Threshold)
 @font style="vertical-align: inherit;">font style="vertical-align: inherit;">pensamtb /font>/font>:
  • 23 3
 @justanothermatt: The "look" of a weld can be indicative of its strength and durability so yeah I care what those welds look like especially when I am pinning it.
  • 15 0
 @pensamtb: images.app.goo.gl/JzuWUkRc91gXL9JS7
  • 2 0
 @russthedog:

.....just like their bikes (and my "friends" wife)
  • 2 1
 @pensamtb: That's dangerous and would never happen. Hiring him to their quality assurance department, however, seems possible.
  • 3 2
 @ctd07: ok Stevie Wonder...............
  • 7 0
 @rip8569: Agreed. Although to me, even though they are ugly, these welds do look plenty sound and I wouldn't think twice about riding this frame. Some of the welds I've seen on those Ancillotti bikes are another story...
  • 2 0
 I remember my first weld (in evil German guy accent)!!! That might be a Nicolai joke.
  • 9 2
 This thing fell out of the ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down.
  • 2 0
 @russthedog: haha so true
  • 10 1
 @rip8569: Can you see any thing on the welds of this EWS bike that indicates poor strength and durability?
  • 4 0
 Has there been an issue with weld breakage? These don't look that much different than my '07 Santa Cruz Heckler. Or my ,14 Trek Remedy either for that matter...
  • 6 1
 @russthedog: arm chair experts agree the Orange frames are not very aesthetically pleasing.
  • 3 0
 Good old Orange!
  • 18 0
 Those are handmade welds and actually pretty nice for aluminum, especially around a tube where the angle is constantly changing as you move forward, and as thin as many hydro formed tube sets are. No, they aren't pretty like a robot welded frame but then people wouldn't be happy with it's (likely) far east origins.
  • 2 0
 @danrowe: so post up your wonderfully aesthetic push bike!!
  • 46 0
 @rip8569: The key of your statement is "can be indicative of its strength and durability". As someone that is actually a TIG welder I can assure you there is nothing visually indicative of those welds that would lead to me to worry. They look fine. Not great, but at least average. Without x-raying the weld it's impossible to assess penetration, contamination, or other possible issues. What I can visually say is they did these in a single pass unlike Cannondale and some newer Specialized bikes where they do a second pass to smooth out the welds. I'll take a stack of dimes look of an aluminum TIG weld everyday over a smoothed out double pass. Adding extra heat for the sake of aesthetics is stupid at best, but the Pinkbike armchair welders eat that marketing up.
  • 7 6
 Aren't Nikolai frames welded locally? How can one look at this and not covet such beauty: keyassets.timeincuk.net/inspirewp/live/wp-content/uploads/sites/11/2018/12/G1_Schweisstechnik_1200x1200_2-560x560.jpg

Most of us are no longer 20 year old shredders, scouring the buy/sell to save $10 on a part, and we work full time jobs. We have families and other responsibilities. Riding time is limited, and therefore much more precious. Why not own something beautiful, something that inspires you, something that speaks craftsmanship, skill, and dedication? We can afford nice things now. Even a Turbo Levo for $14,000 is pocket change compared to your cousin who just bought a wakeboard boat.
  • 3 1
 @georgiamtbiker: Totally agree, 100% (especially the part about adding extra heat as a marketing gimick SPOT ON lol). I wasn't referring specifically to this frame which given being painted and no radiographic inspection you can't really tell if the welds are quality. More objecting to the generality being presented by the poster saying that you don't need to care what a weld looks like when you're riding, when in fact in some cases there's visual evidence that indicates a poor weld.
  • 13 1
 To read the owners manuals you simply run your fingers along the welds and then convert from Braille.
  • 3 0
 Still waiting for the MRP Bartlett review
  • 1 0
 @hamncheez: what's with the WE shit?
  • 3 0
 @700-pirate: So over a year ago Vital said on their insta or somewhere that they had one in for review. I know several people who got one as industry insiders, and were supposed to report back to me on how it rode. None will. I got one guy at Fezzari to say it was meh.

I suspect that for smaller companies, if a reviewer doesn't like the product, they just refrain from saying anything, as to not hurt the company. Reviewers only crap on bad products if they are a larger corporation, from what I've seen.
  • 3 1
 The problem with oranges is that the frames themselves actually look really nice in the flesh but paint they use looks awful and the graphics are almost like they’re trying to make the bike look as shit as possible. It’s like the graphic designer doesn’t have the balls to quit so he’s trying to take the company down by making the worst graphics imaginable. Like what are those top tube graphics? Vandalism?
  • 8 0
 @georgiamtbiker: Welder here too. Was about to say the same. From a strength/functionality perspective these welds are fine and exactly what you will find throughout engineering industry. Aesthetically they may be lacking but obviously that's not what the brand strive for.
  • 1 0
 @georgiamtbiker: I came here for this comment.
  • 1 0
 Who needs welds??
www.pinkbike.com/news/first-look-and-interview-gamux-prototype-gearbox-dh-bike-at-les-gets.html
  • 1 1
 @pensamtb: Even Ray Charles saw to comment coming. And he's dead! Rip.
  • 1 1
 @IluvRIDING: right you can see how ugly it is and avert your eyes before looking closely enough to see the welds
  • 1 3
 @FlaMtnBkr: they look like complete shit. Look at a foes or an aluminum Intense. That's how a weld should look
  • 1 1
 @georgiamtbiker: as a tig welder how would you rate the welds on a foes or an intense in comparison to the orange?
  • 2 0
 @rip8569: tell this to my alloy SC Bronson - good looking welds that held for almost 20 days of riding
  • 1 0
 @justanothermatt: no such thing as a bulldog weld. i.e. ugly but strong as heck
  • 1 2
 The welder who's work we are inspecting is probably rushed or not payed well and it shows in work ethic. nice welds take more time and pride. Those things are scarce in an industrial setting. In this particular instance id say the perfect looking weld is no stronger than these. Unless you weld perfectly yourself, I'd not let these bother you.
  • 2 1
 Has the silhouette of the old sx trail. He probably would have placed better on a 2007 sx trail than this unit
  • 1 0
 @justanothermatt: They crack allot too apparently. You know welds aren't there for aesthetics right? they do something quite important.
  • 1 0
 @georgiamtbiker: You're more likely to find inconsistency's inside the welds on welds that are inconsistent externally though. If a welder is having minor wobbles on every weld like this one they are more likely to have a major bobble now and then than one who is really accurate all the time. Also Oranges crack often...
  • 2 0
 @hamncheez: Ahh Yes, family's, house deposits and mortgages. All these things allow for spending lots of money on bikes.
  • 2 0
 @inside-plus: I've got 3 kids and a mortgage, plus l another kid on the way. I don't have a ton of bike money, but more than when I was in college
  • 128 20
 Ultimate in fork technology meets the engineering equivalent of a door hinge at the rear. Maybe a farm gate?
Come on orange it's not 1987!
  • 31 3
 Business in the front, party in the back?
  • 32 2
 I don't mind the single pivot, I think the latest split swingarm version looks pretty good, but the IS brake mount is unforgivable.
  • 34 8
 Not sure what everyones issue is with Orange so what they haven't changed the design much in years but if it isn't broke why fix it ? You could say the same about so many other brands people bag on about everything looks like a Session but lets me honest the Session and ever other bike looks like a more modern Turner After Burner!
  • 3 0
 @mr-moose: such a throwback!
  • 21 3
 There is nothing wrong with an IS brake mount post mount provides no added benefit apart from aesthetics @mr-moose:
  • 16 1
 @heavyp: my issue with orange was that the frame broke. 3 other friends had the same issue with cracked welds. downtube shock mount alignment can be so bad the tyre touches the seattube under full shock compression. rear end flex can be so bad the tyre rubs the swingarm. 136lb xc rider. the trek fuel I had after the orange 5 was a considerably better bike
  • 7 1
 @enduroNZ: PM does add pretty significant benefit in that it isn´t trying to shear the bolts lol. Galfer for example doesn´t recommend using bigger rotor than 180 with IS...
  • 9 1
 And the price they sell them at!?

Still there's loads of people ride them in UK as they are a UK brand and a brand their non-biking mates know as a 'serious' brand for showing off.
  • 20 26
flag MikeGruhler (Jul 9, 2021 at 4:49) (Below Threshold)
 Moto's use Single pivots...guess there all old shit farm gates to. Go figure
  • 10 0
 @scantregard: As a counterpoint I have had an Orange Stage 5 for the past 4 years with zero problems, I'm 190cms and 95kgs. I came off a Trek Fuel that may have been a more efficient bike but the riding experience was dull compared to the Orange.
  • 25 0
 @MikeGruhler: Most motos are linkage driven single pivots.
  • 6 1
 I had a Santa Cruz Bullitt (basically this) back in the day, and it was a good bike. With modern suspension, I wonder how good it could be. I think the old shock (Progressive Element?) mainly lacked low speed compression, so the bike would get all weird under heavy braking.
btw - if you don't like my SC Bullitt comparison, tell me how this bike is different...
  • 23 0
 @MikeGruhler: Moto don't have to deal with pedal kickback
  • 1 3
 @scantregard: bit like a Yeti then?!!
  • 5 1
 @ripdogg1: If that's a party, it's a trashcan fire in a sandpit vs. a lazer show in a club
  • 5 2
 @MikeGruhler: linkage driven single pivots......

But whats the old saying? If it aint broke, dont fix it? Orange clearly are happy with the single pivot design, they seem to keep selling bikes, so it must be working, but what would I know?
  • 6 4
 If you look at the kinematics of an Orange, it is one of the better ones on the market.
  • 7 0
 @constantly-broken: What if it's ...constantly broken?
  • 2 0
 @ripdogg1: This bike screams party, the only possible upgrade left is a 26" in the back.
  • 9 0
 @Elgaucher: They do, its just easier to fix on a motorcycle because you can re-arrange the transmission output shaft location relative to where you want the swingarm pivot. Pedal kickback is just another term for chain growth. If a motorcycle has too much of this then it'll bind the suspension, snap the chain, or require massive amounts of slack in the chain at full droop.

The best way to achieve the same arrangement on a bicycle is with an idler pulley. I'd argue that the newest high-pivot bikes are just emulating motorcycle rear suspension geometry in a way that suits a human-powered drivetrain.
  • 3 2
 @Murfdog: I wouldnt know. luckily my only experience of a frame welded by chimps using a potatoe was an orange 5
  • 21 3
 Athletes who've done well on a single pivot Orange:
Steve Peat
Greg Minnaar
Tracey Hannah (on a single pivot Morewood too)
Ben Cathro
Brendan Fairclough
...

And then we have the other successful single pivot bikes from Trek (Diesel, Session 10), Morewood, Cannondale...

More pivots don't mean more better. I personally like these Orange bikes.
  • 6 4
 Tell me the differences and negatives of the orange suspension system when compared to the design used within the Evil range for example.
  • 1 1
 @ripdogg1: Hack in the back!!! Just call it lazy. Even the new bullit has more pivots!!!
  • 2 1
 @BEERandSPOKES: It is about time a brand releases a suspension design with at least twenty links or so. PB comment section will be satisfied, this surely must be the greatest suspension design ever.
  • 4 4
 @justanotherusername: is this a joke?
  • 6 6
 @BikesBoatsNJeeps: most people ride single pivots they just don’t know because bike manufacturers know they have to add pivots and linkages with a jazzy name to sell bikes like virtual pivot point sounds way better than what it really is a virtual single pivot. Like nobody says anything about single pivots when trek releases a new bike because it’s not immediately obvious that it’s a single pivot. Honestly have no idea why single pivot is such a dirty word in mountain biking.
  • 8 1
 @thenotoriousmic: it does not, but those likages make a whole lot difference compared to a "direct" single pivot like Orange's one.
  • 18 3
 @justanotherusername: Well the Orange uses a single pivot to create a sub optimal kinematic, and the Evil uses a single pivot plus a bunch of little links to make a sub optimal kinematic.
  • 3 0
 @nouseforaname: Made me laugh even as an Orange fan.
But sometimes sub-optimal is more fun.
  • 3 0
 @chakaping: Well sub optimal doesn't mean terrible. And just because your kinematic is on point (for a given rider/riding style/trail type) doesn't meant that the rest of the bike is on point too.

I have a dislike for Orange from (prob 20 years ago!) taking a shock out of a frame hanging on the wall of the shop to weigh the frame without shock (because I'm like that). The back end was so out of line the forward shock eyelet was 1/4" out of alignment. Not a warranty. Doesn't sound like that has improved based on comments above.
  • 4 1
 Why does it need to be new? If it works it works. If not... then move on. I don't ride an Orange but it's hard to argue that they don't have a history of riders going fast on their bikes and a stable fan base. I have heard that the single pivot Oranges are predictable and reliable and their updated geometry feels good. Might not be my next bike but getting hung up on whether or not it is single pivot without really knowing how that is going to impact it's ride is a waste of time. Why @npbc do you think the suspension on this bike would negatively impact your riding experience?
  • 5 4
 Orange bikes are straight single pivots that don't play well with coil shocks...

Id love to know what he has done with the shock or linkage to keep that shock from smashing bottom constantly.

Super heavy spring? Progressive bottom out bumper?

Whats up Joe?
  • 4 3
 why add complicated linkages and bearings if the shock is the one that will affect how the bike rides anyway? The wheel moves 1 or 2 milimiters to the front or the rear despite being 4 bar or single pivot. Give me a half decent shock tune on a single pivot over any other likage without a shock tune.
If linkages were significant performance adders, moto GP and supercross would already moved on.
The only design I can think of having some performance over the traditional single pivot, is the single high pivot.
  • 1 0
 @nouseforaname: I think they've sorted the frame alignment now - though I know it was an occasional issue 10 years or so ago. They've also got much lighter and seem to have resolved the cracking issues they had a few years ago.
Dunno if it's a coincidence that they've also got significantly more expensive.
  • 1 0
 @scantregard: so post up your wonderful bike dude, maybe give even more folk a laugh
  • 3 0
 @Notmeatall: all of the disciplines you just mentioned....use linkages.
  • 1 1
 @Gremclon: Obviously you have never ridden an Orange. My Five Evo is probably the quietest bike I have ever ridden. Nothing shakes or rattles. If you don't wrap you brake hose or shifter cable in some foam when you build it, that is your own fault.
  • 1 0
 @nouseforaname: Haha, that at least made me laugh....

I quite like single pivots and see through much of the marketing of many (Not all), some are fantastic but some offer very little in the way of 'benefits') multi link systems, one aspect of a properly designed non single pivot I do like however is behaviour under braking, little you can do there with a single pivot.
  • 3 0
 @NicolaZesty314: Explain to me then, using actual understanding of suspension kinematics how they are different and why one is 'better'

Dont just say 'are you joking' or 'are you stupid' or something else, give me an actual low-down of why the two single pivots in question differ, and why one is better than the other.
  • 2 0
 @Elgaucher: Don't many Moto's have the floating brake attachments to fix the brake jacking issue on single pivots?
  • 1 0
 @NicolaZesty314: it can make a difference but still there’s not much you can’t do with a well placed main pivot and the correct shock tune.
  • 3 0
 @vondur: not since drum brakes. Some bikes use them BMW does on their shaft drive stuff but most don’t bother anymore.
  • 1 0
 @JudyYellow: It’s quite simple, a coil won’t bottom all the time out if you’ve got the correct rate spring and set up is good. A lot of the Orange bikes that have one world cups had coil shocks.
  • 2 3
 @justanotherusername:
Single pivot
"In the case of a true single-pivot, the shock is connected directly to the swingarm — a design made famous by Orange Bikes. The simplicity of the design makes for easier maintenance of the pivot bearings.
One possible shortcoming of this design is that it offers little control over the leverage curve. True single pivot bikes are generally pretty linear — the force required to move the rear wheel through its travel does not “ramp up” towards the end (to resist bottom out) as it does with a more progressive design."
Linkage-driven single pivot
A linkage-driven single pivot design still uses an uninterrupted swingarm, connecting the rear axle directly to the mainframe. However, it incorporates some form of linkage to drive the shock. This allows the designers to manipulate the leverage curve and so control the frame’s progressivity (how much the suspension firms up towards the end of the stroke).

Quite easy i believe, on a linkage driven single pivot such as Delta for Evil bikes they could tune the leverage ratio giving the suspension a super supple off the top, good support in the middle stroke and good ramp up to make it progressive and don't bottom out that easy, goes great with coil.

A Simple design like Orange Single Pivot doesn't allow to play a lot with leverage curve and suspension feel as it's just straight to the shock, since both bikes has custom shock tunes i believe a linkage driven Single pivot is better overall than a simple single pivot such as Orange one.
  • 1 1
 @thenotoriousmic: it does make a difference, perhaps try both and feel for yourself if you have the chance, it's worth it. Anyway, it's not that the linkage driven ones have a missplaced main pivot and wrong tune so i don't get your point tbh
  • 4 1
 @Notmeatall: Ah...the "if it was any good Moto would do it" fallacy. Bicycles are not motorbikes and in many aspects of design - particularly around suspension do not have much correlation.
  • 5 2
 @NicolaZesty314: where did you copy that from?

Aside from being a novel that merely states - ‘linkages allow for tuning of leverage rate, which is quite obvious, what about all of the other aspects of the bikes suspension such as anti squat differences, anti rise?

Sure orange bikes may be rather linear, this isn’t the argument though and personally I would prefer a linear, predictable action over a rate that changes three times throughout stroke.
  • 2 1
 @NicolaZesty314: Can make a difference not guaranteed. Any design can be poorly implemented. Twin links are no exception.
  • 3 0
 @NicolaZesty314: what I meant is you can get the similar result as a linkage driven single pivot with the correct pivot location, shock tune and where you position the shock like running the shock through the downtube on oranges dh bike.
  • 4 0
 @justanotherusername: Both bikes you mention are single pivots, so it's quite simple to check what anti-squat will be: look at the pivot location. If the pivot is along the chain line (the part of the chain that is being pulled, a line that runs from the top of the cog the chain is in to the top of the chainring, and the virtual continuation of this line), anti-squat will be 100%. Besides the frame, the variables for this are what cog is selected and chainring size, so depending on what chainring size you use you might prefer one frame or another to achieve the desired behaviour. If the pivot is below the chainline anti-squat will be negative, meaning there will be pedal bob (as a negative effect), and negligeable or inexistant chaingrowth (as a positive effect). If the pivot is above the chain line, anti-squat will be positive, so the pedalling force will tend to extend the suspension, but this is nullified by the force of your own weight over the shock. As a result there will be a little stiffening of the suspension, contributing to a very efficient pedalling. But if the pivot is too high the extension force will be too much and pedalling will actually raise the rear, absorving your pedalling force, unless you are pedallng sitting down. The disadvantages of a bike with over 100% anti-squat (positive anti-squat) is more chain growth, but this might not bother you at all, also depending on how much higher than 100% it is. For these aspects of suspension performance on a single pivot all that matters is pivot location, for other aspects such as progressivity, the use of linkages as it happens on the Evil bike allows a greater control and optimization, though I don't know how well they optimized it and how better it ends up being than this Orange in particular.
  • 2 0
 @vinay: thanks for bringing some facts to the conversation
  • 1 0
 @MikeGruhler: nope they use linkage with a single pivot. You know, a leverage curve.
  • 1 0
 @boozed: I just go to the surgeon and get my broken ass fixed haha
  • 3 0
 @Notmeatall:
MotoGP? Link driven.
Motocross/Enduro bikes? Link driven.

From memory, the last true "single pivot" motocross bike that was competitive was from Husaberg before KTM bought them out (even KTM had gone back to a linkage driven shock at this stage).
  • 4 0
 The thing is, enduro tipically doesn't have huge hucks. If there's a stage on a downhill track, the large jumps are closed off. So, a lack of progressivity might well not even be a lack. If it's not noticed it's not a lack, and you're actually getting to use more of the travel. In addition, progression can be easily added and tuned with an air shock. In this case no air shock was even used, so it looks like that need wasn't even felt. As such, there are no drawbacks to this bike (except the lack of bottle mount and the spanner look, if you're not into that). It's one of the lightest (for aluminum), one of the best pedalling and one of most torsionally stiff (as with most true single pivots). Also one of the bikes that attracts the most ignorant comments!
  • 1 1
 @scantregard: @npbc Guys im picking up hate for the English here haha I know you have never liked us but come on don't be hating haha
  • 1 0
 @MikeGruhler: completely different.
Does the power source that weighs more than the bike bob up and down at low frequency?
Uh... no.
Does rearward axle movement create pedal kickback on a moto... surely no...

So the application has different requirements that can easily be satisfied by a single pivot AND a proper rising rate linkage. (Something the orange doesn't have).
  • 1 0
 @justinc5716: uhh what...
"Chain growth" on a motorcycle is handled by the lower chain guide wheel, as the swing arm levels it unwraps from that wheel, and there's also a lower chain guide....

Pedal kickback when wheel speed is low enough Jerks the pedals, on a motorcycle it does nothing of the sort, antisquat is the only relevant term for a motorcycle and too much makes the suspension stiffen too much on the throttle with traction, not ripping chains off.

High pivots are about divorcing axlepath and antisquat from the relationship they must share with the chainring in its normal position. Which also lessens pedal kickback.
  • 1 0
 @constantly-broken: well ktm still sell desert spec bikes with no linkage. Yuck. The Husqvarnas have links though and are otherwise nearly identical.
  • 1 0
 @vondur:
They don't have brake jack, that implies that under braking the rear suspension extends, it doesn't it the reaction to braking is to compress. This is actually called antirise....
What can happen with high antirise is a cycle, traction - braking force - compression - loss of traction (skid) - loss of braking force - extention - traction and repeat creating a stutter. But it's mostly doesn't occur. It's enough of a non issue that although it would be incredibly simple to make a floater nobody does it.
  • 1 0
 @Mondbiker: same as centerlock discs Vs 6 bolt mounts. Centerlock are just an inherently better design for dealing with braking forces
  • 3 0
 @mr-moose: Centerlock sucks. They’re noisy, require specific large tools that don’t fit on a multi tool and you have to use adapters if you want a rotor that isn’t made from cheese. It doesn’t matter that centre locks are better at dealing with braking forces when never once ever has a 6 bolt design failed.
  • 2 1
 @BikesBoatsNJeeps: Your point? it's still a single pivot, correct? Every faux four bar bike is a linkage driven single pivot. The linkage doesn't change anything but the leverage ratio.
  • 2 0
 @NicolaZesty314: Most suspension experts I talked to (and that is some people with a legacy in Fox) keep telling me the best kinematics are linear or linear-progressiv, meaning a steadily falling ratio with no sudden changes. Like this, you will achieve good support in the middle. A lot of bikes with additional linkages, especially if they are small, will have the ratio all over the place.
A single pivot line Orange's can perfectly achieve a constantly falling ratio.
  • 5 0
 @cru-jones: yep this is what most people don’t understand about suspension. With super progressive rear ends you have to pick between no support in the midstroke and being able to use full travel or having a supportive midstroke but having a harsh end stroke and never really using full travel.
  • 2 0
 @heavyp: no hate for the English here my bro. Just a dislike for lack of progression.
  • 1 0
 @npbc: Many steps backwards have been taken by major brands to satisfy the public's eagerness for "progression". I mean regarding suspension designs. In geometry there has been real progression overall.
  • 1 2
 @Gremclon: You must be just dumb.

Why do carbon bikes offer tube in frame to run the cables and hoses? Why does Specialized send their bike frames with foam for the cables and hoses?

Any bike will rattle due to cable and hoses unless managed with either super tight grommets, tube in frame, or foam. This has nothing to do with Orange bikes.
  • 1 0
 @thenotoriousmic:
After owning a centerlock bike and getting to use to them...
I hate fiddling with rotor bolts and often resort to a bit driver when dealing with 6 bolts
  • 1 0
 @zerort: wellllllllll.........
Some monocoque bikes with external cabling
Like foes and orange somehow magnified every sound...
  • 1 0
 @englertracing: Orange full suspension bikes are internally routed.
  • 1 0
 @zerort: im mostly talking about oldies.
  • 1 0
 @englertracing: Oranges aren’t actually noisey. The chain doesn’t hit the swing arm. It’s just something that’s been said so many times by American pinkbikers who’ve never actually seen on in the flesh that it’s almost become fact.
  • 1 0
 @thenotoriousmic: Ok.
Well I can confirm that foes are loud
Sound like someone banging on your front door.
  • 84 2
 Double DH22 and Cushcore, the rotational inertia of a neutron star.
  • 7 0
 My guess is 39lbs on that bad boy
  • 78 8
 Finally! People using dual crowns for enduro...

I've been banging my head against the wall about this for years, but somewhere like La Thuile a pedal-able DH bike is exactly what you need. It's one of the gnarliest places I've ridden all over the world: steep, rough, loose, and 95% of the racing is downhill with a chairlift to the top. The extra stiffness at the top crown area/headset and especially the Direct Mount stem junction makes a lot of difference and much more important than stiffer lowers. Plus there is plenty more room in the stanchions to fit longer dampers and air springs inside.

I think the only reason they haven't caught on yet is because the marketing dept's at the big brands are too worried about categories of 'downhill' products and 'enduro' products so won't let their riders chuck on a dual crown fork.

I predict late '22 or 2023 season at least 80% of the pro's will run DH forks with new cut-out crowns to save 12 grams so they can call them enduro forks.
  • 10 0
 Amen. For riders that need it the Formula fork looks like a much better solution than a Zeb/38.

Unless you're worried about your ebike looking too much like a motorbike!
  • 4 0
 Interesting that this fork seems to use a conventional stem and bars. Not sure if thats a useful USP for Formula, or a sneaky way of reducing fork weight for internet points, while putting that weight back on in steerers, spacers and regular stems.
  • 9 10
 "Finally people are using dual crown for enduro"?

Specialized tried this idea in the latter part of the 2000s on the Enduro. You know, THAT dual crown fork with proprietary hub "standard" (22 or 25mm from memory) leaked more than a 7rump supporter post election night and with the adjustability of a tuning fork (none) and felt like a pogo stuck once the seals were "worn in", or was it just the one I had?
  • 7 0
 But he's not using a dm stem lol!!
  • 4 0
 Yeah but what will we do when our CSU's stop creaking? I wouldn't even know where my forks are if they didn't sound like a slowly snapping piece of wood
  • 3 0
 @constantly-broken: that fork was so terrible though.
I think the fork has moved on a bit since that... Thinking about it before that too.
Was it not the guy who made RS so bad with his plastic bits that moved to Specialized and he mad another bad fork.
  • 3 0
 @constantly-broken: The E150 took a 25mm axle indeed. But the issues you mentioned weren't necessarily caused by it being dual crown. Actually, I'd expect that with these longer stanchions they have more room for internals and do things properly.

And obviously, before onepointfive, more than 130mm travel required two crowns (even though this is what triggered Marzocchi to release a Z150 with a single crown and 150mm travel). It is more that brands started to one-up the amount of travel they could get out of a single crown fork. It definitely seemed like a case of "just because they could, didn't ask whether...". But yeah, before that you also had forks like the WP/Rond Mid Ego which was a mid travel USD dual crown fork (similar to the Big Ego).
  • 1 0
 Maybe they didn’t have the right stem and amount of spacers to go under a direct mount to get the bar height needed.
  • 13 0
 @seismicninja: you obviously don't know how pinkbike works! Comment first, check article second haha!
  • 1 0
 @astonmtb: hahaha true dat
  • 4 0
 Exactly! I've been saying it for ages, but with the way Enduro is heading and how crazy the courses are, someone just need to make a 200mm downhill bike that has a wide range cassette and a dropper post, and its bound to happen eventually.
  • 1 1
 @Hogosha: People can just assemble that if they feel they need it, right? More than enough DH bikes available with sufficient seat tube length, dropper posts with external routing available, long cage rear mech and a full cassette is still available unless you have a 7sp DH specific cassette body. Aware of what is holding people back?
  • 6 0
 This seems like a straw man. I don’t think there are hordes of people out there actively working against dual crowns in enduro. Jaded Graves experimented with a Boxxer reduced to 180mm on his Spec Enduro just a few years ago. I think if there were good offerings, people would run them. I’m certain if it won races, people would run it. But Rude, Moir, Maes, Hill, et. al. don’t seemed to be hindered as much by single crowns as everyone thinks they theoretically should be.
  • 2 0
 @Hogosha: Add to that an 80° STA, a suspension lockout, and I'm sold.
  • 1 0
 My next enduro bike is going to be a Transition Spire with the new carbon upper Manitou Dorado Pro on it. I haven’t seen weights on it yet, but I can’t imagine it’s much more than a Zeb.
  • 2 0
 @MegaStoke: Whoa........12th can't get here soon enough.
  • 1 0
 @Hogosha: someone... does? canfieldbikes.com/collections/one-2-dh-mtb
  • 1 0
 '...95% of the racing is downhill with a chairlift to the top...' still it being enduro?
  • 1 0
 @AyJayDoubleyou: The fork allows for a direct stem but for some reason the rider chose not to use one.
  • 1 1
 @astonmtb: check article? Skim headline, jump in, chat shit, refuse to admit your wrong, down vote when you lose.
  • 3 0
 @Hogosha:

Did it! But 210mm both ends!

www.pinkbike.com/u/astonmtb/blog/paul-astons-nicolai-g1-the-perfect-mountain-bike.html
  • 1 0
 @astonmtb: Well ill be damned...
  • 1 0
 I remember starting racing on a VPFree with a totem up front or a 40. Seems we are almost going back there, just longer an slacker.
  • 2 0
 @astonmtb - Maybe there will be a day when enduro and DH bikes have the same frame / fork with different parts bolted on... at the end of the day they need to do the same job. Your G1 is the perfect example of this. Until that day big brands are going to keep the gravy trail rolling as long as they possibly can - because we all need to be able to bar spin our DH/enduro bikes....
  • 53 0
 Not using a direct mount stem on a dual crown fork should be illegal.
  • 1 0
 especially when the mounts for one are RIGHT THERE
  • 20 6
 The bike was good enough to get a 3rd in an EWS so whatever they are doing is obviously working.
  • 12 0
 That thing they're doing that is working is putting a fast rider on the bike Smile
  • 4 0
 @bananowy: Obviously, a fast bike alone doesn't get riders on a podium, if there is such a thing as a "fast bike". The rest is proper setup and spec. Although this bike's good pedalling performance and torsionally stiff frame sure helps.
  • 2 0
 Did JC do better with a single crown or a dual crown?
How far off the win in both events.
Let's judge after the weekend when it's 2 on single and 2 on dual crown.
It's an evidence based sport for me.
  • 1 0
 @betsie: then you’ll need to get out there and run the experiment so you can have more than 4 observation.
  • 18 4
 I love an Orange #Controversial

Go on downvote me... you know you want to...
  • 16 4
 “Oranges winning formula” yeah ok lol
  • 6 2
 When Steve Peat rode one a wee while ago.
  • 6 0
 @BenPea: Well the laws of physics have changed since the introduction of 29rs so it's no longer possible to go fast on a simple single pivot.
  • 1 1
 @nouseforaname: That must be it! Even that whose name hangs at the tip of every Pinkbiker's tongue (Session) is a single pivot. Kids don't even know what they like or dislike, haha.
  • 10 0
 So dual crown fork that’s not full on DH.

Jnr T anyone?

No idea is new and everything just goes in circles.
  • 4 0
 that specialized fork also existed.
  • 2 0
 I had a Super T that was custom tuned by Dave Garland (legend!!) on my 'DH' Bullit (paired with a Dave Garland custom tuned Romic shock) and it was 160 mm of suspension magic. More than enough to help keep me alive on UK DH tracks (of the time 2002-3) at my Masters Category 'riding for fun not racing for the win' speeds.
The suspension was so good i used to ride it on trail rides too as it was so much better behaved than the standard suspension on my 'trail' Bullit.
  • 1 0
 That’s what I had on my ‘98 Specialized FSR, 100mm of coil sprung, open oil bath plushness!
  • 11 1
 wtf you have DC fork but don´t use DM stem, that is ultimate fail.
  • 12 2
 I’m a boilermaker & there is nothing wrong with those welds.
  • 3 1
 Genuine question: does anyone make boilers out of aluminum? I'd have guessed they'd all be steel or stainless.
  • 1 0
 @kcy4130: haha mate I’m not sure anyone makes “boilers” anymore.
But yeah pressure vessels/pipes are mostly steel.
Ally is too soft to take any serious pressure.

I think the majority of people in here have never welded aluminium before. It’s hard, especially when you are joining very thin material like a pushy frame.

The inconsistency people are soiling about is probably from different machines & tradesmen working in the same job
  • 6 1
 Enduro dh trail its all the same thing mountain biking its just been overly catorgrized by big firms making money. Hes riding down a gnarly trail why not hsve the added stiffness.we always knew enduro bikes and dh bikes where going to morph into one bike.
  • 7 0
 Interesting idea. Had the formula MOD for nearly a year. Been very impressed with it.
  • 1 0
 You don't see many about yet. What does it feel like?
  • 3 0
 @chakaping: Amazing. Had a lot of different coil shocks. This is by far the best. The fact you can unplug the piggy back damper and.plug a different one is, is great. Makes a real difference to the tune. Not had any issues
  • 6 0
 So much want for the fork.
  • 3 1
 Orange should try to embrace a high pivot design w/idler pulley and offer something FRESH. I don't think this is the ugliest bike but most people are just buying it based on the heritage of 'Orange' as a brand. If it said 'Iron horse' on it I bet it wouldn't sell much...
  • 5 1
 Everyone hating on Orange, but I have to say every Santacruz looks as exciting as a Barry Manilow CD.
  • 5 0
 Placing 61st on a bike made 20 years ago is pretty amazing for Joe
  • 1 0
 Noticed that Joe is running a trail stem rather than a DH stem and it made me wonder if he couldn’t find a DH stem that gave him the bar position he wanted? Which makes me wonder if we are we about to see a variety of 4 bolt trail stems with different lengths and rises?
  • 4 1
 Review Orange bike pro-need only 2 bearing for frame..so easy maintain con-everything exept that
  • 2 0
 Reminds me of my 2002 Cannondale Gemini with a DC fork and ULTRAwide range 9spd cassette. Everything comes full circle in mtb and this bike looks fun
  • 2 0
 I used to ride a Bullet with a Boxxer for every ride from epics to park days, 2001-2002ish. Nice to see how I used to custom spec is so similar to a pros bike 20 years later.
  • 1 0
 Mine was a Mr. T but roughly the same. Odd but relevant back then and set the inspiration and mindset for my other bikes over the years.
  • 2 0
 @CarlMega: nice! I had a Jr. T before the boxxer, but wanted to go thru axle and Marzocchi was on backorder on the fork I wanted at the time. That bike is still complete and running today piloted by my brother.
  • 1 1
 I recall mid 90's an MBUK article reviewing a bike frame (not orange) that suggested the manufacturer had a contract to demolish a defunct oil rig, it had so much steel in it.
Whenever I see an Orange swing arm, I remember that quote.
And results speak for themselves, when was an Orange sp design any where near the podium? (and I mean in the last decade...)
  • 1 0
 Last time I checked (ten years ago?) Orange had one of the lightest DH bikes around.
  • 6 4
 Not judging the technology here, but Orange bikes are still amongst the oddest looking ever.
  • 4 3
 Psst. Your phone has autocorrected "most beautiful" to "oddest".
  • 3 0
 Do Burgtec not make a direct mount stem?
  • 3 0
 Possibly not one with the enormous stack height on the front of that bike! Upper crown plus 4 spacers and a tall stem. Penny farthing might have lower handlebars
  • 6 2
 I'm just speculating, but it could be a stem length thing - have a look at the available lengths for DM stems - they tend to be 45 or 55mm, while many of the enduro boys are running 40mm or so. Plus it is 2021, so there's a fair chance they simply didn't have one.
  • 1 0
 @mattwragg: ha, 'out of stock', you never know. Could be to do with position though as he is tall.

I'd be having an OCD meltdown if it were my bike.
  • 2 0
 @mattwragg: Spank makes higher rise dm stem in 25/30mm and 40mm all with 31.8 bars. They also make a zero rise 40mm with either 31.8 or 35 bars. All available for purchase today direct from Spank.
  • 2 0
 @mountainsofsussex: meanwhile they make those awesome 70mm rise handlebars.
  • 1 0
 @Notmeatall: they do make 50mm rise ratboy bars...
  • 4 0
 I’d ride it
  • 2 0
 it doesnt look too bad, just the dual crown with a non-direct mount stem is weird
  • 3 0
 Actually, this bike looks like a riot to ride!
  • 2 0
 Damn... the only thing on that frame that tells me it isn't 15 years old is the seat tube angle Wink
  • 2 0
 Pro´s have an excuse, but for Joe Public this is like putting a bonnet bulge and sports exhaust on a mini metro Big Grin
  • 4 0
 what is this, 2010?
  • 4 2
 How many people here hating on the single-pivot ride a Kona or a Trek and do not realize they are riding a single pivot?
  • 2 1
 There is quite a difference between a direct driven single pivot and a linkage driven single pivot
  • 2 0
 @Happymtbfr:
I have linkage driven, a direct single pivot, and a multi link bike, shock set up on all is critical,, There is a difference in “feel” ( very subjective) but riding in the dirt there is little to choose in terms of performance, unless of course you factoring the cost of full bearing replacement bi annually, which of course every PB commentator does, in order to achieve maximum compliance in the single or multi link system..
  • 3 0
 ultraviolet drool…
  • 3 1
 Absolute shredder! G’won lad
  • 12 11
 Best looking frame available, can’t wait to get my fifth Orange, love them
  • 1 1
 Is that due to one of many cracks that appear? We have a customer on his third bike.........when you work on them you get to see how shit they really are. Orange's response.....and I quote, "oh well third time lucky"...
  • 2 0
 @darkstar66: I’ve never had one crack and know plenty of people the same, on the other hand I do know of lots of boutique carbon frames that have. I’ve worked on mine and they are fine
  • 3 1
 Those welds on the frame look so inconsistent...
  • 6 0
 Actually when you consider how long many of those welds are, I would say they look fine.
  • 2 0
 Two different welders. (source: I pay welders)
  • 2 0
 whats the weight on this dual crown enduroooooooo????
  • 3 0
 2270g
  • 3 0
 @rideformula: Can not wait for the full details on this fork.
  • 1 0
 Love that fork but the mismatched shade of purple on the bumpers is really bothering me!
  • 9 11
 I am sure I am going to get roasted for this, but I kind of hope to keep the old spirit of enduro alive, they either ban these or start changing the courses where this would be a clear disadvantage. Personally, I'm a fan of enduro bikes needing to be more all-round to be good, whereas some of these modern races are basically multi-stage DH with a lot of lift access. Then again, it's not like this guy is at the top of the field.
  • 12 0
 This prototype is lighter than single crowns with big stanchions. If you compare this fork with a big SC your bike will be lighter and more well-rounded with this DC.
  • 4 0
 The correct engineering solution isn't 38+mm stancions and 1.5" or even 1.8" headtubes tapered to 1.125".

No matter what those configurations can't be as stiff at the bars as a DC with a direct mount, and the csu is still the weakpoint especially if it's pressed like a Fox rather than one piece like an ohlins.

If the formula solution is lighter, has a lower A2C for a given travel and stiffer in every way than a 38 or zeb, and has lower stiction from less seal area why wouldn't you want one?
  • 1 0
 great so where's the new Pivot Firebird release that's supposed to happen this week?
  • 3 1
 Are those welds or caulk?
  • 1 0
 Neither. Birdshit
  • 3 1
 is the 85kg Joe's weight or the bike's weight?
  • 2 0
 Love the new down-duro category of suspension forks.
  • 1 0
 Even the fender is at a hideous angle, also is that a crack on the shock mount?
  • 1 0
 I want this fork in 170mm... Should have the same axle to crown as a 160mm and more travel is more.
  • 1 0
 than it´s good it has 170mm?
  • 2 0
 Bike designer in orange must have the laziest job in the world.
  • 1 1
 You can all bag the welds and shit suspension when this bike whistles past you on the trail, well, that's for those that actually ride.
  • 1 0
 All these people talking about Orange Bikes being outdated frame designs.....

Me:
blinks in hardtail
  • 1 0
 Had a DC on my "enduro" bike since I picked it up used 12 years ago LoL. Welcome to the party?
  • 1 0
 It really looks like those lowers are rock shox 180mm lyric lowers or even boxxer lowers jus painted
  • 1 0
 Yeah, yeah all the above. His mudguard looks shit as he has over-tightened the cable-tie. Poor form.
  • 1 0
 I don't care about the frame shape or the welds, but this bike is a hot mess of color vomit
  • 2 0
 Tasty setup. Yay!
  • 1 0
 is this a "down-enduro" bike?
  • 1 0
 Down-Duro maybe.... rolls off the tongue a little easier.
  • 2 3
 As much as I dont like idea of enduro being just small DH. I like this bike for one single reason. Not once there was mentioned SRAM or Shimano. And that is refreshing!
  • 3 0
 Don’t look at the derailleur Wink
  • 2 1
 That looks absolutely sick and out of the box in a good way. Moar please!
  • 1 0
 I too think of putting a dc on my okd Orange
  • 1 0
 hmmm... maybe it would perform really well on stage n.º6 at EWS
  • 1 0
 That drivetrain being all over the place gives me hope.
  • 1 0
 I feel like Orange is the British Ellsworth
  • 1 0
 Classic single pivot. No e13 crank?
  • 2 2
 Trans Madeira is not polite
  • 1 1
 Similar aesthetic to the new Pole ebike
  • 2 2
 thing looks like a glorified Diamondback
  • 1 0
 IT BEGINS
  • 1 0
 Hot stuff
  • 2 3
 Nice to see a bike that doesn't resemble Pat Sharpe
  • 7 0
 Pat Sharpe looked pretty orange the last time I saw him in TV
  • 1 0
 @Molesdigmyjumps: Haha
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