Should enduro racers be using dual crown forks? It's one of the big tech questions we've seen raised
in the past few years of the sport and it looks like Formula have taken one big step towards making that a reality. First unveiled in June
, the Italian brand's prototype dual crown isn't a fully beefed up downhill fork but a hybrid that instead brings a tougher, stiffer chassis to its enduro fork, the Selva R.
Now, for the first time, we're seeing it on a racer's bike in La Thuile. Joe Connell signed with the Orange Factory Team this year
and has already tasted success this year with a third-place finish in the Trans Madeira
. For La Thuile, he's running the Stage 6 with the new fork alongside a bevy of Formula, E13 and Burgtec parts. His initial impressions of the fork are strong with noticeable improvements in stiffness and a lockout to prevent bobbing on the climbs.
Let's get into all the details on the bike and some more info on the fork below.
Lighten up Francis
.....just like their bikes (and my "friends" wife)
Most of us are no longer 20 year old shredders, scouring the buy/sell to save $10 on a part, and we work full time jobs. We have families and other responsibilities. Riding time is limited, and therefore much more precious. Why not own something beautiful, something that inspires you, something that speaks craftsmanship, skill, and dedication? We can afford nice things now. Even a Turbo Levo for $14,000 is pocket change compared to your cousin who just bought a wakeboard boat.
I suspect that for smaller companies, if a reviewer doesn't like the product, they just refrain from saying anything, as to not hurt the company. Reviewers only crap on bad products if they are a larger corporation, from what I've seen.
Come on orange it's not 1987!
Still there's loads of people ride them in UK as they are a UK brand and a brand their non-biking mates know as a 'serious' brand for showing off.
btw - if you don't like my SC Bullitt comparison, tell me how this bike is different...
But whats the old saying? If it aint broke, dont fix it? Orange clearly are happy with the single pivot design, they seem to keep selling bikes, so it must be working, but what would I know?
The best way to achieve the same arrangement on a bicycle is with an idler pulley. I'd argue that the newest high-pivot bikes are just emulating motorcycle rear suspension geometry in a way that suits a human-powered drivetrain.
Tracey Hannah (on a single pivot Morewood too)
And then we have the other successful single pivot bikes from Trek (Diesel, Session 10), Morewood, Cannondale...
More pivots don't mean more better. I personally like these Orange bikes.
But sometimes sub-optimal is more fun.
I have a dislike for Orange from (prob 20 years ago!) taking a shock out of a frame hanging on the wall of the shop to weigh the frame without shock (because I'm like that). The back end was so out of line the forward shock eyelet was 1/4" out of alignment. Not a warranty. Doesn't sound like that has improved based on comments above.
Id love to know what he has done with the shock or linkage to keep that shock from smashing bottom constantly.
Super heavy spring? Progressive bottom out bumper?
Whats up Joe?
If linkages were significant performance adders, moto GP and supercross would already moved on.
The only design I can think of having some performance over the traditional single pivot, is the single high pivot.
Dunno if it's a coincidence that they've also got significantly more expensive.
I quite like single pivots and see through much of the marketing of many (Not all), some are fantastic but some offer very little in the way of 'benefits') multi link systems, one aspect of a properly designed non single pivot I do like however is behaviour under braking, little you can do there with a single pivot.
Dont just say 'are you joking' or 'are you stupid' or something else, give me an actual low-down of why the two single pivots in question differ, and why one is better than the other.
"In the case of a true single-pivot, the shock is connected directly to the swingarm — a design made famous by Orange Bikes. The simplicity of the design makes for easier maintenance of the pivot bearings.
One possible shortcoming of this design is that it offers little control over the leverage curve. True single pivot bikes are generally pretty linear — the force required to move the rear wheel through its travel does not “ramp up” towards the end (to resist bottom out) as it does with a more progressive design."
Linkage-driven single pivot
A linkage-driven single pivot design still uses an uninterrupted swingarm, connecting the rear axle directly to the mainframe. However, it incorporates some form of linkage to drive the shock. This allows the designers to manipulate the leverage curve and so control the frame’s progressivity (how much the suspension firms up towards the end of the stroke).
Quite easy i believe, on a linkage driven single pivot such as Delta for Evil bikes they could tune the leverage ratio giving the suspension a super supple off the top, good support in the middle stroke and good ramp up to make it progressive and don't bottom out that easy, goes great with coil.
A Simple design like Orange Single Pivot doesn't allow to play a lot with leverage curve and suspension feel as it's just straight to the shock, since both bikes has custom shock tunes i believe a linkage driven Single pivot is better overall than a simple single pivot such as Orange one.
Aside from being a novel that merely states - ‘linkages allow for tuning of leverage rate, which is quite obvious, what about all of the other aspects of the bikes suspension such as anti squat differences, anti rise?
Sure orange bikes may be rather linear, this isn’t the argument though and personally I would prefer a linear, predictable action over a rate that changes three times throughout stroke.
MotoGP? Link driven.
Motocross/Enduro bikes? Link driven.
From memory, the last true "single pivot" motocross bike that was competitive was from Husaberg before KTM bought them out (even KTM had gone back to a linkage driven shock at this stage).
Does the power source that weighs more than the bike bob up and down at low frequency?
Does rearward axle movement create pedal kickback on a moto... surely no...
So the application has different requirements that can easily be satisfied by a single pivot AND a proper rising rate linkage. (Something the orange doesn't have).
"Chain growth" on a motorcycle is handled by the lower chain guide wheel, as the swing arm levels it unwraps from that wheel, and there's also a lower chain guide....
Pedal kickback when wheel speed is low enough Jerks the pedals, on a motorcycle it does nothing of the sort, antisquat is the only relevant term for a motorcycle and too much makes the suspension stiffen too much on the throttle with traction, not ripping chains off.
High pivots are about divorcing axlepath and antisquat from the relationship they must share with the chainring in its normal position. Which also lessens pedal kickback.
They don't have brake jack, that implies that under braking the rear suspension extends, it doesn't it the reaction to braking is to compress. This is actually called antirise....
What can happen with high antirise is a cycle, traction - braking force - compression - loss of traction (skid) - loss of braking force - extention - traction and repeat creating a stutter. But it's mostly doesn't occur. It's enough of a non issue that although it would be incredibly simple to make a floater nobody does it.
A single pivot line Orange's can perfectly achieve a constantly falling ratio.
Why do carbon bikes offer tube in frame to run the cables and hoses? Why does Specialized send their bike frames with foam for the cables and hoses?
Any bike will rattle due to cable and hoses unless managed with either super tight grommets, tube in frame, or foam. This has nothing to do with Orange bikes.
After owning a centerlock bike and getting to use to them...
I hate fiddling with rotor bolts and often resort to a bit driver when dealing with 6 bolts
Some monocoque bikes with external cabling
Like foes and orange somehow magnified every sound...
Well I can confirm that foes are loud
Sound like someone banging on your front door.
I've been banging my head against the wall about this for years, but somewhere like La Thuile a pedal-able DH bike is exactly what you need. It's one of the gnarliest places I've ridden all over the world: steep, rough, loose, and 95% of the racing is downhill with a chairlift to the top. The extra stiffness at the top crown area/headset and especially the Direct Mount stem junction makes a lot of difference and much more important than stiffer lowers. Plus there is plenty more room in the stanchions to fit longer dampers and air springs inside.
I think the only reason they haven't caught on yet is because the marketing dept's at the big brands are too worried about categories of 'downhill' products and 'enduro' products so won't let their riders chuck on a dual crown fork.
I predict late '22 or 2023 season at least 80% of the pro's will run DH forks with new cut-out crowns to save 12 grams so they can call them enduro forks.
Unless you're worried about your ebike looking too much like a motorbike!
Specialized tried this idea in the latter part of the 2000s on the Enduro. You know, THAT dual crown fork with proprietary hub "standard" (22 or 25mm from memory) leaked more than a 7rump supporter post election night and with the adjustability of a tuning fork (none) and felt like a pogo stuck once the seals were "worn in", or was it just the one I had?
I think the fork has moved on a bit since that... Thinking about it before that too.
Was it not the guy who made RS so bad with his plastic bits that moved to Specialized and he mad another bad fork.
And obviously, before onepointfive, more than 130mm travel required two crowns (even though this is what triggered Marzocchi to release a Z150 with a single crown and 150mm travel). It is more that brands started to one-up the amount of travel they could get out of a single crown fork. It definitely seemed like a case of "just because they could, didn't ask whether...". But yeah, before that you also had forks like the WP/Rond Mid Ego which was a mid travel USD dual crown fork (similar to the Big Ego).
Did it! But 210mm both ends!
How far off the win in both events.
Let's judge after the weekend when it's 2 on single and 2 on dual crown.
It's an evidence based sport for me.
Go on downvote me... you know you want to...
Jnr T anyone?
No idea is new and everything just goes in circles.
The suspension was so good i used to ride it on trail rides too as it was so much better behaved than the standard suspension on my 'trail' Bullit.
But yeah pressure vessels/pipes are mostly steel.
Ally is too soft to take any serious pressure.
I think the majority of people in here have never welded aluminium before. It’s hard, especially when you are joining very thin material like a pushy frame.
The inconsistency people are soiling about is probably from different machines & tradesmen working in the same job
Whenever I see an Orange swing arm, I remember that quote.
And results speak for themselves, when was an Orange sp design any where near the podium? (and I mean in the last decade...)
I'd be having an OCD meltdown if it were my bike.
I have linkage driven, a direct single pivot, and a multi link bike, shock set up on all is critical,, There is a difference in “feel” ( very subjective) but riding in the dirt there is little to choose in terms of performance, unless of course you factoring the cost of full bearing replacement bi annually, which of course every PB commentator does, in order to achieve maximum compliance in the single or multi link system..
No matter what those configurations can't be as stiff at the bars as a DC with a direct mount, and the csu is still the weakpoint especially if it's pressed like a Fox rather than one piece like an ohlins.
If the formula solution is lighter, has a lower A2C for a given travel and stiffer in every way than a 38 or zeb, and has lower stiction from less seal area why wouldn't you want one?
blinks in hardtail
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