Day 3 Randoms - Eurobike 2019

Sep 6, 2019 at 11:25
by James Smurthwaite  
Hope


Hope were showing off this new 2-in-1 brake lever that is made for riders that have one arm weaker than another. A lever was originally made by a student in France using his father's machines to aid his own riding. When Hope saw what he had made they invited him over for an internship and he spent his time producing this double lever for them.


The shorter lever is used by your index finger to control one brake and your middle finger uses the longer lever to control the other. Hope warned us that you have to be careful with the longer lever as it's very easy to apply a lot of force to. The levers will be made to order and it weighs and costs about as much as two single brake levers.


Hope also had a new crank available for e-bikes. They only have the fitting for Bosch motors at the moment but are hoping to expand their offering in future.




Huldr's gearbox downhill bike


Sweden's Huldr returned to Eurobike this year with their second prototype of gearbox downhill bike that can be converted into an e-bike. The company apparently initially wanted to make an electric motorbike with mountain bike components but as the idea grew they decided to make a convertible bike instead. Huldr only arrived at Eurobike today, so the bike we saw and shot was set up in downhill mode, but still had a flat rear tire and a chain that was too long.


The linkage is currently machined from aluminum but there will apparently be a carbon version made before the bike is released.

The Pinion P1.12 is a 12 speed gearbox with a claimed 600% gear range.

The magic happens in the bottom bracket where a 3D printed insert can be used for switching between the two options. It's definitely not a trailside swap though as you'll have to fit a full drivetrain as well as the motor.

The printed carbon insert that can be removed to fit an e-bike motor.

The Huldr prototype in e-bike form with a single crown fork. Converting it will require a fair bit of work as you'll have to fit a full drivetrain as well as swap out the gearbox for a motor.

The chainstays can be made longer and shorter thanks to aluminum extenders.


We saw the bike with a bit more life in it later that afternoon.



Falcon Full Carboon Clincher



Galfer


Galfer are continuing their quest to supersize brake rotors with this latest prototype. This rotor comes in at a massive 246mm, making it bigger than the current largest on the market by 23mm. It is designed for 29 inch downhill bikes and e-bikes and Galfer advise that it is used on the front only due to the power it generates. The rotor comes in at 2.3mm thick so won't also be compatible with all the brake calipers on the market.

The 246mm rotor next to a standard 203mm.

It has already been used under the radar by Baptiste Pierron at the Vallnord World Cup and by Galfer's test rider in the Catalan Cup too but Galfer want to get a bit more testing in on the rotor before they commit to a price or release date. They do have a confirmed weight though, 300 grams.


Galfer has also made a 63mm adapter for the brake, which will allow it to be run on downhill forks and even a Fox 36 if you want your trail bike to come to a really sudden stop.



Praep


This Praep Propilot fitness device/game was on display in the start-up area of Eurobike. You download a free app to your phone and then plank above the device using a pair of handlebars. To beat the game you have to dodge between obstacles by shifting your weight left and right, these movements are picked up by the accelerometer in your phone and relayed to the game.


The Praep can use any pair of handlebars or you can buy it with a pair if you don't want to have to take yours off your bike to use it. There is currently only a limited number of tracks available but the plan down the line is to get GoPro footage of real race tracks to use as levels in the game. The Propilot itself costs €49 or €99 with handlebars.




1994 Foes LTS 16]



We found a true blast from the past with this Foes LT 16 that's a quarter of a century old. Retro features include a Tioga disc drive, classic RockShox and Fox suspension and white Panaracer tires.





Microshift


Microshift had this conversion kit for Sram Eagle and Shimano XTR 12 speed that allowed you to ditch trigger shifters in favor of top mount thumb shifters.


122 Comments

  • 35 0
 That hope dual brake lever is great idea, it would make a lot of sense to pair the long lever with a two piston caliper in the rear and the short lever with a 4 piston up front to overcome the difference in power delivery.
  • 12 4
 Hordor! Hordor!
  • 4 90
flag kleinblake (Sep 6, 2019 at 12:07) (Below Threshold)
 I can’t comprehend why someone would want to put a stronger brake on the front when the front brake already has more power naturally and doesn’t get as hot as the rear.
  • 13 0
 @kleinblake: skid doesn't mean slowing down
  • 4 60
flag kleinblake (Sep 6, 2019 at 12:32) (Below Threshold)
 @bok-CZ: which is why I would never put the stronger brake on the front. I’d want it out back for better heat management
  • 11 1
 @kleinblake: Think weighting when riding the steeps. Normal flat braking is mostly on the front. Have heard 70/30, but don't know if accurate or internet lore. Put yourself into a steep downhill situation, and the vast majority of braking is handled by the front.

Was once told when riding in the steep and loose, that you brake with your front and steer with your rear. While that is oversimplified, in essence it is correct. Most braking is done with the front, and use the rear to get it to tuck or swing wide, and note that this can be done without locking up the rear and skidding.

Food for thought.
  • 4 61
flag kleinblake (Sep 6, 2019 at 12:35) (Below Threshold)
 @mykel: 70% of your total braking power comes from the front because of weight shift. But do you really think you’re using more front brake than rear? Braking usually means a loss of traction. Why would I want more braking power on the front wheel when that delivers all the steering control?
  • 14 1
 @kleinblake: Yes I know, basic physics and body positioning and with regards to brake balance - Yes you do. When I have been on the DH bike playing / testing I have tried front and rear only braking when sessioning. Your front brake provides much more control and much more power. Rear only makes you skid, pick up speed and loose steering precision. A lot of people will drag their rear brake (quite a few unconsciously) and that is why rear brakes seem to wear faster, People use the front correctly, on and off, but drag the rear. Same for rotor size, larger rotor in front for a longer moment arm and greater heat dissipation due to greater use.

Same reason cars and motorcycles have a larger brake system on the front than the rear, it is not just bikes.
  • 26 0
 @kleinblake: lol what on earth are you talking about.

Literally look at anything with brakes. This isn’t even a discussion.
  • 3 37
flag kleinblake (Sep 6, 2019 at 12:45) (Below Threshold)
 @mykel: the front brake is naturally more powerful. Why would you want to compound that effect? And skidding isn’t always a bad thing. It’s great for quick direction changes.
  • 3 39
flag kleinblake (Sep 6, 2019 at 12:53) (Below Threshold)
 @bonfire: mountain bikes are for sure different. We’re riding on extremely lose terrain with very low weight, traction is hard to come by. You don’t want to be touching your front brake at all in a turn because it’ll give out. Why give that brake extra power with a bigger caliper and bigger rotor when it already is more powerful when all things are equal?
  • 1 0
 Looking at the lever. I think my arms are heavy.
  • 15 1
 @kleinblake: The front brake isn't naturally more powerful. It provides more braking effect, but that doesn't equate to having more power. You also aren't considering the modulation of the brake.
  • 4 2
 @kleinblake: Usage. The front brake provides the majority of the braking so it needs to be stout. Hence 4 piston front, 2 rear, Large front rotor, small rear, Disk front and drum rear (older cars) etc etc.

Just because a brake is bigger or more powerful, that does not mean that it is easier to lock up. You can lock a wheel with a cheap ass brake, but control and especially heat management takes size and power.

Prime example, it is easier to lock up a Juicy 5 than a much bigger more powerful Hope T3V4. So conversely the more powerful T3V4 provides much better and more consistent performance, all the while being easier to operate at the limit. - But yet the T3V4 - an unequal size 4 piston is harder to lock up than the Juicy a single dia dual piston which by a lot of peoples opinion would mean that is is less powerful.

Your guess, but I know which one is on the DH bike an which one is sitting in the parts box.

Happy Trails.
  • 1 34
flag kleinblake (Sep 6, 2019 at 13:11) (Below Threshold)
 @bigtim: “The front brake isn't naturally more powerful. It provides more braking effect”

What?

I am considering modulation. A brake with less all out power tends to modulate better. A brake that’s hot won’t have heaps of initial bite but it will have some modulation, which sounds great for the front, and less great for the rear if you’re trying to skid
  • 15 0
 @mykel: time to give up on kleinbakes logic.

The pinkbike powers that be are going to add a kleinbake filter similar to the ebike filter available for us to hide things....
  • 17 1
 @kleinblake: Not sure if you're a troll or a complete moron... I'm mostly thinking the latter based on your posts.

What @bigtim is trying to tell you is that solely placing the exact same brake/rotor in the front of a bike (or any vehicle for that matter) does not inherently make it "stronger" as you are saying. It has (not accounting for the flex in the brake line) the exact same power as the rear.

What does happen, is that the brake will have a greater effect on stopping than the rear because the weight transfer onto the front wheel affords more grip whilst braking, allowing you to apply more braking force through the front wheel before traction is lost (ie lockups) compared to the rear.
  • 4 25
flag kleinblake (Sep 6, 2019 at 14:08) (Below Threshold)
 @mikeyorange: that’s literally exactly what I’m saying
  • 2 1
 @kleinblake: What you were describing is the front having more grip than the rear, but if you put the same brakes on the front and the rear, the front doesn't become more powerful. What you were saying translated as adding grip increases braking power. Stronger brakes increase braking power and more grip increases ability to use that power.
  • 10 0
 @kleinblake: no you're saying you should put a stronger brake on the rear to make it as strong as the front...

BUT... tire grip IS the issue... you'll never use that added power; whereas, you can if placed on the front, where the grip IS higher thus allowing greater force to be applied through it.
  • 3 0
 I think it would actually make more sense if there is some internal work done to the break to let it have longer lever but same leverage.
  • 4 0
 Been running the dual lever setup one handed for 30 years. Running Hope 4 piston on my current DH bike. I just flip one lever upside down and run it inboard slightly. Great that Hope is doing this. One challenge with this setup though is that there is no adjustability in angles and position between the levers to get things perfectly dialed. Lever position depends on the size of your hand and finger length. I have a gap between the levers and shifter and seatpost remote sits between the levers. www.prostheticarm.com
  • 1 0
 @Stanley-w: yes they could increase the main piston diameter in the same proportion to the lever length, but then price...
  • 3 0
 @mykel: While I agree with just about everything you say and am baffled by what kleinblake is rambling about.. Drum brakes are actually inherently more powerful because of the physics occurring inside when applied (Google 'duo-servo'). Hence why you see drums, not discs, on semi trucks.. That being said they have incredibly bad heat dissipation which is why you would never see them on a performance vehicle and are all but obsolete on modern passenger vehicles.
  • 1 3
 I know that Hope does things rather low tech (just look at those crude grooves they machine in those Aluminium parts, must be machinery from the last century...) but why they wouldn’t take the longer lever into account when designing this, and compensating for it with different pivot points eludes me.
  • 2 0
 @FuzzyL: Human beings are a visual lot.

If you notice the caliper machining is even "rougher" and it has been alluded to in the past that the heavy contouring works as mini cooling fins giving more radiative surface area.

On cranks though....I'm going with a combo - reduced machine time but the official answer will be - visual I'm guessing.
  • 3 0
 @kleinblake: so you run 160 up front and a 220 rear right? Are you drunk?
  • 1 4
 @kleinblake: don't know why the downvotes. I am going like 2 rear sets to 1front set brake pads analogy. On 4pot calipers f/r the front when in use it's just a notch and release or lightly dragging, the rear mostly sharp and prolonged braking on long descents while feathering the front to balance, in any given circumstances stronger brake at the back makes more sense. My rear disc shows significantly more prolonged exposure in high temp from it's colour. The front bearly wears out.
  • 1 2
 @mykel: heavy front breaking in the steeps?? do you like your steering unprecise and randomly locking when suddenly slips and grabs again? If there is a slight angle and you are heavy on the brake and loose traction you are f*cked. You need you front wheel turning and as free as possible from braking forces, fearhering will give you much more control, instead of fighting your own weigth shifted at the bar and the front constantly looking for a chance to lock and kill you.
  • 3 0
 @adespotoskyli: Yes I do, I also feather and trail brake. I've been riding foot cycles on dirt since 1969, and I am still riding my DH bike weekly - not my first rodeo dude. I know what you are Trying to say, but only the rider knows what the current conditions are and where and when he can brake effectively. Dragging is no good for either the rider or the trail, the bike stands up too much and you brake traction too easily. Pick your braking points, get on the brakes then get off of them, there is usually room between the bigger roots and rocks to grab a little. Watch some of the top WC riders in slow motion for examples. This is a skill no different than jumping or cornering.
  • 1 0
 @FuzzyL: Its a prototype by an intern, not a refined finished product for sale yet...
  • 1 0
 Ahha... i mean.... if you riding a bike w those brakes, you should be able to know how to brake... and your hands should be able to squeeze the levers with different speed and force for each end. Cant compensate for lack of experience and skills with a longer lever.
  • 1 3
 @SonofBovril: Sure. And it‘s a product for a really small niche at that. Still, when they bring him into the company as an intern especially for that, I would have thought they would have used their resources to do it right in the first place.
  • 31 0
 ...Why would you want a top mounted thumb shifter?
  • 5 0
 Came here to say the same thing.
  • 12 0
 Not for MTB really, but for utilitarian city riding or remote touring it's as simple and fixable as they come.
  • 4 0
 @Hand-of-Midas: could probably set one up for slopestyle pretty easy too.
  • 1 0
 Bottom mount thumb shifters are the shizz.
  • 5 0
 Retro is cool, right?
  • 2 0
 ....because the SIS shifter on your ‘quarter century old’ Raleigh you ride to the shop on has died?
Otherwise no idea. Toss then toss now
  • 4 0
 For style? You could also mount it on the downtube for extra retro points.
  • 1 0
 Ergonomics. For some people they're far more usable and comfortable to use thumb shifters than trigger pods. NOT to mention they're lighter and more reliable.
  • 3 0
 My coworker has a Straggler set up with GX Eagle and one of those microshift levers, set up on his downtube, in friction mode lol. On the one hand, he's purposely being the world's most obtuse hipster. On the other hand, his shifting is stupidly smooth...
  • 25 0
 Over the years I've built about 5 bikes for people that only own one arm, now there's a even cleaner solution. Hells yeah.
  • 16 0
 I know a guy with two arms, both leased. Still saving up for a deposit on them.
  • 1 0
 @browner:
You just made my day.. Hahaha
  • 13 0
 The Praep Propilot is the first 'dumb training thing' I've seen in a while that actually looks like fun. The trouble is I would just kneel in front of it and lean the bars, gotta get them high scores man! Unless it has a weight sensor so it knows whether or not you're actually doing a plank. The ability to fit one of the many sets of old 'spare' bars every rider has sitting in their garage/loft/under the bed is well considered.
  • 2 0
 I need therapy for my collection of ‘spare’ bars..
  • 5 0
 Dude even a knee plank is very tough if you do it for long enough. The device looks interesting enough to warrent a buy though, especially at this price.
  • 2 1
 I was just looking at them as I thought great idea. Then I thought about it. What technology is actually in the propilot itself. It is surely just a clamp for the bars, and the tech is all in the app and your phone. I.e. the phone senses when you lean and moves your position on screen, like the racing games where you tilt to steer. That made me think its overpriced and you could probably do something similar with some old stems if you had the time and knowledge
  • 1 0
 @Nairnster: So the people at Praep put in the time and knowledge (and the creativity/beers to come up with the idea in the first place).

I really think it is a cool and fun idea and I would even buy it. Unfortunately I don't have a compatible phone. I could borrow my girlfriend's though it probably would only last until it short circuits from the sweat or just breaks from me crashing into it. Next iteration: build in a protective case for the phone.
  • 2 0
 @Nairnster: for what they’re charging, it can’t possibly be worth your time to come up with something similar. Unless you’re unemployed or just like to tinker.
  • 10 1
 !the Huldr is giving me flashbacks to the Honda for some reason! man I miss the Honda dh bikes
  • 35 1
 Who puts bikes out for display with flat tires and slack chains??
  • 3 1
 the headtube is fuqing hidious, check the orange one
  • 15 0
 @deepcovedave: Can we get a bike pump to booth 53 for their $12,000 bikes.
  • 2 1
 @deepcovedave: Huldr..the photo is right there.
  • 5 1
 @Benzz: Looks like it was molded around a can of beer LOL.

I like it, reminds me a less refined Forbidden Druid, but with more travel. Which is what I would actually want to buy.
  • 4 4
 @Benzz: Looks like I would saw through the rear swing arm in about a month with the chain. Who would design a bike like that?
  • 8 0
 Just for fun, I would love to know what that Foes weighs. Perhaps a guessing game and closest to the answer wins a t-shirt eh PB?
  • 4 0
 45 llbs ??
  • 4 0
 55 lbs
  • 3 0
 34 lbs
  • 6 0
 69 lbs, for sure.
  • 1 0
 That foes is the OG Mullet bike - short travel up front- long travel out back...
  • 3 0
 Price is right rules, correct? You cant go over. I am going to bid 1 lb, Bob
  • 8 2
 Man the Hulder is the future. High pivot, 0 chain growth, gearbox, it ticks all the boxes. I think Pinion already makes a 6 speed gearbox thats significantly lighter. Just pop that bad boy in there and you're golden!
  • 3 0
 You'd think at some point that stuff has to fit enough. Especially on a DH bike where things get ripped off pretty easy and weight isn't a huge deal.
  • 6 0
 For once we agree @hamncheez - gearbox DH bike would be the ultimate bike. Velcro stuck to the ground, still poppy, nothing to smash on a rock, no maintainence. Best of all worlds.
  • 2 1
 @colemanb: hey want to ride redbull and moose house next weekend? Assuming I get my hub fixed?
  • 6 1
 That Hope multi-lever brake setup is an excellent idea for riders who may be limited due to a physical constraint. Really happy to see companies do stuff like this!
  • 60 4
 One arm weaker than the other... getting a girlfriend would fix that but that’s even more expensive
  • 9 0
 @WAKIdesigns: I want to be mad at that comment, I really do.....
  • 1 19
flag vhdh666 (Sep 6, 2019 at 12:08) (Below Threshold)
 @WAKIdesigns: you habe to apologise on this one mate
  • 2 0
 @WAKIdesigns: or one arm less
  • 7 0
 @WAKIdesigns: This reminds me of the episode of Family Guy where Quagmire discovers internet porn...classic.
  • 3 0
 It’s better to have one arm less than post too many comments with 10 fingers...
  • 2 0
 @WAKIdesigns: I didn't mean it any kind bad, two of our Czech folks are now shedding Whistler, one one-legged, second with no sense in lower body and we are glad they have fun and can enjoy the ride due to the support and companies with a will to help them get back on riding
  • 5 0
 *retro nerd* - the white tires are panaracers (dart on front), not onza. though onza made white tires back then (porcupines), the tread pattern was quite different to these.
  • 2 0
 Thanks! I've got Porcupines on the brain with them releasing them again here at Eurobike (more on that coming later today).
  • 1 0
 @jamessmurthwaite: As long as the new white porcupines last longer than the originals. You only had to look at them wrong and they were ready for the bin.
  • 1 0
 @mgolder: haha--so true, loved the black ones though. Haven't seen a round knobbed tire since either.
  • 3 0
 Hope would do well to market the dual lever set up in the moto world where a good number of trail riders run an extra rear brake lever on the left side above their hydraulic clutch. This set up would be much cleaner... Reference Recluse Clutch.
  • 2 0
 Already being done in Australia by a company called Clake. My dad has one as he's a right foot amputee and the rear brake pedal is useless to him.
  • 3 0
 Do you need the Praep thing in order to play the game? I've got an old set of handlebars, a phone holder, and some scrap wood, and would like to try something similar out before dropping the cash to get one.
  • 2 0
 I just downloaded it for free and played it. Without the thingy. iOS App Store.
  • 2 0
 Huldr is on the right track for us middle aged folk with issues, gearbox until we can't ride anymore then e time. Abit of refinement and I reckon they'll surprise us. Linkage is nice too. We'll played regardless if they weren't 100percent ready for the event.
  • 2 0
 The link on the Huldr, it's a metal cylinder rolling inside the link ? Cuz' if not it seems to me it lacks a link to work.
I already thought about such a "roller link" but thought it was a bad idea if nobody was doing it.
  • 1 0
 After further inspection, it looks like there's a link, it's probably just a small & flat metal part on each side of the metal link (hence the triangular shape of the link) visible on the rearward view, and the "roller" part is just a cylinder holding the 2 small flat links apart.
  • 1 0
 All my bikes are thumb shifters... I'll take light, super reliable and easy to maintain over the triggers from SRAM or Shimano any day. I already run the 11 and 10 speed MTN ones from Microshift... compatible with DynaSys derailleurs.
  • 5 1
 What clown forgot to pump the tyre up..
  • 11 3
 The same clowns who designed a downhill, double-chained, convertible e-bike monstrosity.
  • 4 1
 How do you go as far as designing a convertible pinion/electric motor DH bike, producing it, and then just giving up on final touches like sizing the chain and airing up a tire for it's debut to the whole entire world????
  • 1 1
 Same joker who didn't sort the chain length or close the lever on the rear axle properly. It's a decent looking bike, but it also looks like it was thrown together by a moron in 5 minutes flat.
  • 7 2
 Or, if you read the article, they got there late and were still assembling it when it was photographed.
  • 4 1
 pretty sure that is a Panaracer Dart on the front of the Foes.

I’m old.
  • 4 0
 Yup (also old). And Smoke Hardcore on the rear?
  • 2 0
 @jduffett: @CFJonny - Yup! Had a pair on my '94 Bontrager Race Lite. They wore out on the first ride on em! Smile
  • 4 0
 ...not quite--they're called Panaracer 'Magics' front and rear-specific. I had a couple of cool old bitchin' Michellin green skinwalled Darts BITD. I'm old too.
  • 3 0
 @OceanPhil :I had some 1995 ish Maxxis green rubber, skinwalls Cobra was the front tire, cant recall the name of the rear. on my first mountain bike, first upgrade I made to my first bike in fact!!
  • 3 0
 Do those carbon wheels in a Three Wolf Moon print? I'm asking for a friend.
  • 3 1
 omg that Foes !!!! i lusted at it when i was young and no money ... it was red now i own a Mono DHS and it retired and no crack on the frame long live to Foes !!!!
  • 1 0
 Fancy building a whole bike that can convert between e-bike and normal bike, sign up for a massive show to display it at...... Then somehow manage to display it with a flat tyre and a chain that is comically long.
  • 3 0
 That hudlr bike looks stunning tbf. Lovely design and clean graphic choice
  • 4 1
 Foes always been ahead of his game .
  • 2 1
 true
  • 3 1
 So if you add the electric motor to the Hudlr, does the chain saw through the chainstay even faster?
  • 3 0
 Huldr beer while we finish assembling our bike.
  • 2 0
 The FOES is more modern than the FRM in www.pinkbike.com/news/9-unique-bikes-eurobike-2019.html
  • 1 0
 I'm sure this adaptive rider would love to try that brake setup out: www.youtube.com/channel/UC2e9JrZHH6gVcAq2HSspKKw
  • 1 1
 How about that 12 speed thumb shifter. I think the best thing for a r high end refined drivetrain is to put a shifter design on there that's been abandoned years ago.
  • 2 0
 The plank game looks cool.
  • 1 0
 I guess the E bike filter is broken. Oh well it was nice not having to hear or see about them for a while.
  • 1 0
 Huldr may want to work on developing some tubeless sealant.
  • 1 0
 I thought the Huldr was a new Orange...
  • 1 0
 That Galfer rotor means serious business Eek
  • 3 3
 How do you expect to be taken seriously showing up with flat tires?
  • 3 0
 Ask Laurie Greenland..
  • 1 0
 E-bike.

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