Additional reporting: Si PatonThe father and son team of Allen and Stephen Millyard have been designing unique bikes and parts since the mid-2000s that have never failed to spark intrigue in bike nerds like us. Allen originally built a bike with a Ducatti-inspired trellis design frame and an 8 speed gearbox for his son to race on at the British Downhill Series and that bike was soon followed by an even wilder version with single-sided stays. By all accounts, it rode entirely different to the bikes of the day and was heaped with praise by Dirt mag's Steve Jones among others. Stephen Millyard showed that the hype translated to the race clock as well as he was podiuming in the amateur classes at the British national series despite only having 120mm of travel.
There was more to it than the frame and the gearbox though as at the heart of both of those bikes there was also a custom shock built called the Hyper Ride.
Details were always pretty thin on the ground for the Hyper Ride shock but it was based on oleo struts that are used in tank suspension and plane landing gear but adapted for a much lighter application in mountain bikes. It was originally nitrogen charged but that was apparently later changed to argon as it was simpler, cheaper and easier to transport. We later saw Nito Shox's take on the same lines but like Millyard's first attempt at replacing traditional mountain bike dampers, this seemed to fall into obscurity for reasons not related to its performance
Now Stephen and Allen have returned to the shock and created a second prototype although this time it's not for a downhill bike but for Stephen's Transition Sentinel.
Like the original Millyard shock, we can see there is very little external adjustment aside from a charging port. To set up the shock all you do is set the correct pressure for the rider weight using a portable bottle (up to a maximum of 4,200 psi!) and the shock is apparently good to go with no washers, shims, valves or adjustments. The original shock used to get so hot that a 'do not touch' sticker had to be added, which obviously affects the oil viscosity and gas pressure, so cooling fins have also been added to this latest design.
The story gets even wilder when you get into the construction of it. Stephen Millyard says: "The project began in the garden shed where we were able to find old vehicle parts, that would later form the key components of Hyper Ride 2. A phosphor bronze bush forged from a 1950s BSA Gold Star valve guide serves as the bottom pivot and the main strut is a reengineered Land Rover steering damper. The main body was turned from a solid block of aluminium left over from the 2006 Mk1 Millyard downhill race bike using a 1974 Colchester Lathe and finished on a 1950 Elliot milling machine."
Another quirk of the shock is that the Millyards recommend you run high tyre pressures, as they did back on the original bikes. Stephen says: "Harder tyres are better because a soft tyre is an undamped spring. The suspension does give better grip which compensates for the harder tyres. I used to race with 45 psi front and rear."
There is no plan to sell these publically, it's just another demonstration of the wild creativity of the Millyards and their engineering ingenuity. However, we've been told they have been working on a pretty out-there idea for a fork so watch this space for more Millyard madness in the near future.
That's because they're saying something that goes against multiple decades of R&D plus race results from both the non powered and powered off-road world. There is nothing shown to back up their claim, with million and millions of hours that back up that lower tire pressures work better off-road regardless of suspension.
Actually, R&D shows that there is some configurations of shock action VS tire action that works, and others that doesn't.
As I guessed it from reading between the lines in several articles, this shock uses the compensation chamber of the hydraulic system as a spring. Like an airshock without any negative spring. Huge "preload", low spring rate, all backed up by high hydraulic dissipation. So if that is true (I never seen the shock IRL so I can't tell), high tire pressures are not a surprise: it balances the spring curve, and any rebound from the tire would be absorbed in the stiff hydraulic damping.
It may not be a common setup, but without riding it or without datas about performances, I can't see anything wrong... or, more precisely, anything worse than many other off the shelf MTB suspension.
I'm reminded of how people looked at Chris Porter (someone working on a similar scale to the Millyards) not so long ago when he challenged the received wisdom of the MTB industry. Like "surely the very clever engineers at Trek or Specialized would have already done this stuff if it had any worth"...and yet here we are.
I have no idea of the physics of it and don't care to speculate - what you and others are saying makes sense to my ignorant mind, but then the Millyards are saying the opposite, and I am inclined to take what they are saying at face value until it can be verified.
Trek and S are only interested in selling bikes. There is no point in them making the best bike they possibly can as that doesn't work with their business model of selling a new version every year.
So, yeah, maybe do more research.
Charging the shock to 300bar is going to be the main stumbling block for the consumer.
Its only now that we are seeing data logging systems which will enable bike setup to improve, so we can get the most out of what we have.
But they and others do show how (understandably) conservative the industry is at the top. These companies are big beasts with likely pretty slim margins, you can't blame them for being like that. But expecting innovation to come from that area is a bad gamble, it's not surprising that the smaller players (and backyard tinkerers experimenting for the hell of it) with less to lose are where the action is at.
Yeah, I road raced motorcycles for 16 years, and cars too when asked during the same time period.
In road racing(at least) tire pressures are set to maximize GRIP. NOT for suspension interaction.
There's a lot in play here- maximizing the surface area in contact with the pavement, controlling the amount of heat generated(and this is HUGE in both on-and-off road racing) so the tire runs in the correct temp/pressure range so its compound's adhesion properties are maximized(and different compounds in the otherwise-same tire require different pressures), and you don't either cold-tear on one end, or blister on the other, are just a couple. When knobbies are in play(as in MTB tires) too high pressure can cause them to rip off because there's not enough give in the carcass to absorb the force(s) , thus they get isolated in the knobs, which obviously can't support 'em, and SEE YA.
Looks to me like dude is simply covering up for an engineering problem that he can't solve.
Buy hey...if he want's to ride this way, all the power to him
Tire profile and compound would be super critical to these guys but not impossible.
or in meme terms "why are you booing me, I'm right"
1. You can still puncture sidewalls thinner than DH casings, including Super Gravity and Double Down. I punctured 3 different tyres in 2 years on Procore, 2 of them being DD grade.
2. They are a fricking hassle to install, sometimes it takes a few tries before it seals around the valve (or packs up with sealant so it stips working..) and when you puncture the tire while being "out there", well that's not a mess, that's fricking bukkake deluxe, and you have to carry that slimy white inner system on your back or inside the backpack. To put it short: when it works, it is awesome, but when it doesn't - it's a disaster.
3. If by any chance you get a hit so hard that it will damage the rim, which is not that hard with rims wider than 30mm inner, then the rim can explode. It is not likely but it can happen.
4. Finally, the high pressure makes it problematic in general for lighter weight alloy rims and for many carbon rims. Even if exploding would not be the issue, it can still mess up your spoke tension.
Now inserts like cushcore still suffer from some issues: burping, weight and carrying noodle covered in sealant in case of a flat. They won't dampen then hits as well. But they are less of a hassle to install and won't kill the rim.
use the waki filter: github.com/rwd2/pbCommentFilter/tree/master
They wanted an answer to the question "can we?"
Yes, they can.
The end.
IMO very cool, interesting shock, something different for once. All the mainstream stuff (regarding suspension) is getting kinda boring if you ask me. WOW new fork/shock w/ marginal improvement compared to last year's. And it costs MORE LMAO.
I really like what Allen is doing and i really hope that one day his work gets some more credit. He deserves it. He is a frickin legend.
That seems like an over simplification of a complex system. You are correct only in two circumstances i.e. when a tire hits the upside of a bump where the required deformation is small enough that the tire is able to absorb it fully and at a speed that doesn't actuate the suspension or on an even surface.
Once you take bigger bumps, faster speeds and rear suspension action into account, things are more complex.
If softer was better, we'd all be running slow rebound to mimic a soft tyre.
I'd expect there to be a sweet spot for all suspension which is where there tyre deformation & rebound work approximately in phase with your suspension damping & rebound. This would only be for a range of speeds as tyre damping can't be controlled.
This would keep the tyre in firmer contact with the ground for longer and so provide more grip.
@jbeanbuyer I think tyre pressures and shock rebound settings shouldn't confused. Running slow rebound does not mimic a soft tyre.
The tyre will always rebound faster than the shock no matter what pressures or casings you run (within sensible limits of course) so suggesting that a soft tyre wont remain in contact with the floor as well, all other variables being equal, seems incorrect.
Essentially what I mean is that if the tyre is deformed and not in contact with the floor, it is going to return to its uncompressed state faster than the shock is. even at 20 psi.
So while it's true that it's an undamped spring, as a spring it has some other big upsides. It's in a uniquely good position to compress and then rebounding as the wheel passes over small bumps. Also, I wouldn't say tires are totally undamped. The difference in feel between a 2-ply downhill tire and a 1-ply trail tire can only be described as "damped." It goes thud thud instead of ping ping when you hit small bumps.
Have you ridden it? Do you know someone who has tried it? Have you read anything by anyone who has tested it?
The young whippersnappers all think they know
But all the veterans actually know
Caption reads "Made quite firm, but can not manage to keep traction when wet, or if rooting is involved"
www.schwalbetires.com/tech_info/rolling_resistance
Which factors affect rolling resistance?
Tire pressure, tire diameter, tire width, tire construction, tire tread and other factors all have an effect on rolling resistance.
On a completely smooth surface the following applies: The higher the inflation pressure, the inferior the tire deformation and thus rolling resistance.
Off road it is exactly the reverse: The lower the inflation pressure, the lower the rolling resistance. This applies equally on hard gravel roads and soft forest tracks. Explanation: A tire with low inflation pressure can adapt better to a rugged surface. It sinks into the ground less and the whole rotational mass is held back much less by the uneven surface.
Tires with a smaller diameter have a higher rolling resistance with the same inflation pressure, because tire deformation is proportionally greater. The tire is flattened more and is “less round”.
Wider tires roll better than narrower tires. This statement generally invokes skepticism, nevertheless, with tires at the same pressure a narrower tire deflects more and so deforms more.
Obviously, tire construction also has an effect on rolling resistance. By using less material, less material can be deformed. And the more flexible the material is, such as the rubber compound, the less energy is lost through deformation.
Generally, smooth treads roll better than coarse treads. Tall lugs and wide gaps usually have a detrimental effect on rolling resistance.
Send it to Germany and I will dyno your shock. Have a Roehrig machine waiting and can do it on short notice. Free of charge for the sake of my own curiosity.
insights.globalspec.com/article/12954/how-do-oleo-pneumatic-shock-struts-work
Basically inline circuit and paralel circuit. Much like DYAD by Fox was, but instead of sucking the shaft, it's pushing.
The stupid question is for another time, ok?
not as if they have achieved much in there days, knock out a couple kids and
sit on there fat middle aged arse in front of the computer pretending to be experts,
bit like me : )
Reminds me of the John Britten story, he did it differently and challenged the ways
of the big names at Daytona with his scratch built Britten V1000, and no one was
doing what he was doing despite there decades in the industry and millions in resources.
One man making something happen, Respect!
Sometimes, you going against "common wisdom" just means that literally everybody else got it wrong. Its rare, but it happens.
Even corvette has adopted the mid engine layout now.
Now, I think we need to check those baja trucks, but I think there is a better layout for a shock/damper in the wild.
Give the man funding, and he’d colonize the entire solar system.
Look up his viper v10 motorcycle btw!
I'm sold and extremely intrigued to see if the Millyard's cannot get something going here in the UK?
I'm sure theres allot of us "old boys" who would jump at getting something truly special on their bike.
Cannot wait to see what the fork looks and sounds like!
And as to the shock itself and tire psi... I think the very same point about high tire pressures was made in Dirt mag, all those years ago. Tires and wheels have changed quite a bit for sure. However even then, Steve Jones (a man who can certainly ride a bike) couldn’t believe the grip he was getting - at what turned out to be 120mm travel too)
I‘m looking forward to the Nitroshox becoming available at some point (I keep following them on Instagram and hoping!) as it does sound like an interesting departure from the norm..
The part of tires being underdamped springs, has been an issue for me forever, but was quickly remedied when I started running CushCore, which acts as damping control for my tires. (Best suspension upgrade I've ever done)
Let's say you have perfect suspension and extremely hard tires and you run over a rockgarden. The suspension will keep the bike stable and maximise contact time. However, your tires will still be riding on the top edges of the rocks. No way that this will result in great grip. There is an optimal equilibrium, but I don't see that shifting massively by using slightly different suspension. Motocross, 4x4 offroading and off-road bikers all run semi-low pressure for a reason.
was just messaging @mikelevy about this recently... really hope this becomes available to the masses
www.pinkbike.com/photo/17994253
Still dont totally understand how Mallyard shock works, but who does but think the application is sound?
I love the stuff he makes.
LOL. Yeah all those companies, bike techs, and racers across all mtb, who've been getting faster and faster since we started to drop tire pressures are doing it wrong.
I'm not saying they definitely would, I'm saying that everyone here who says otherwise is making an assumption that is untested because it goes against their previous knowledge, rather than taking what the designers say at face value until testing can either bare out or disprove what they are saying.
You may very well be correct. But without external testing you are making an assumption that can't be backed up.
I guess not...
Here, we have a single backyard tinkerer (granted, a famous one with some reasonable results back in the day), who claims to have figured something out that none of those other guys have. The more reasonable explanation is that he's still working with a 90's vision of suspension design, when the rest of the world has moved on and become faster.
However all assumptions that say otherwise are just that, because they are all based on systems and testing that weren't using this shock.
"More reasonable explanation" depends on ASSUMPTIONS which you have laid out. Which until this gets into the hands of external testers we have no way of proving or disproving.
Why not give them the benefit of the doubt until those previous assumptions (which have all been based on technology which is NOT THIS) can be externally verified?