Muc-Off Withdraws Commencal 21 Sponsorship & Insists Amaury Pierron Take Course After 'Racial Stereotyping'
Muc-Off has withdrawn its sponsorship of the Commencal 21 team and will fund an education program for Amaury Pierron following recent social media posts.
Last week, Commencal 21 Team Manager Charlie Juliá shared a photo of Amaury Pierron with cornrows and the words "Next level n----tion" in his Instagram Stories, which Pierron subsequently shared in his own Instagram Stories with the caption "Rap carrer in the making” set to Bobnlarry's 'N---- N---- N----' song. The pair later both apologised for posting the Stories with statements on social media that can be read, here.
Muc-Off reached out to inform us it will no longer be an equipment sponsor for the Commencal 21 team and while it will remain the title sponsor for Pierron's Commencal/Muc-Off team, it has agreed that Pierron will undertake an education course paid for through its sponsorship money.
 | We completely oppose any and all forms of racial stereotyping, and we have taken direct action with the teams involved. Due to where the post originated, we have decided to cancel our sponsorship contract with Commencal 21. In addition, we have agreed with the Commencal/Muc-Off team that Amaury will undertake an education programme on the subject, which we have insisted is paid for using our sponsorship money. |
Commencal and Pierron declined to comment. We have approached Juliá for comment and will update this post if he responds.
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Isn’t just an easy way for Muc-off to simultaneously save money and promote themselves ? Not judging, just questioning.
Amaury has always come across as a very genuine guy, i feel pretty damn sorry for him. If I am right about his true character (ie not actually a Nazi) embarrassment on that level is something that I hope to god I never have to deal with. It's a hard way to learn this lesson for sure!
Note: again I am not supporting public offense of any sort.
Anyway, I can't take this anymore. I'm off to listen to Clawfinger: www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ng1ovEr46c
I'm certain you aren't racist. But if you can't understand why that is, then maybe you should take a moment to stop and think about why that is.
The only occurrence where it is acceptable is the derived “negritude”, a word invented by Aimé Césaire, a black French poet and politician to describe what it is feels like to be black in French society.
And « tête de n*egres » have been banned for quite some time now.
Well, not the pastry itself of course but rather the name. It usually is « boule chocolat » now.
On the core topic, I think it has been completely blown out of proportion. But hey, great visibility / fame comes with great responsibility.
But that doesn't make it OK, it definitely should be called out - IT WAS COLLOSALLY DUMB.
I would say the person who has suffered the most actual hurt from this (by a long way) is AP himself. I genuinely hope he's OK.
Racism and ignorance happen all the time without intent. Saying this is just a dumb mistake reminds me of child predators getting caught, they say the same thing. If this is the kind of thing you do by mistake, you need serious help.
I mean, it's not *just* a dumb mistake. It's an INSANELY DUMB act of social suicide.
"why did they think it would be a funny edit? The title, the hair, the song." I reckon cos they are, by the standards of most of the English speaking western world, pretty unbelievably ignorant. The alternative is, there was a racist intent, they are in fact Nazis, and wanted to out themselves in the most public and damaging way possible. How likely is that do you think?
I agree that it needs to be called out. I also agree with Muc-Off that there definitely needs to be some education.
So the rest of the world needs to keep track of what is considered socially acceptable in the US? That’s a bit arrogant isn’t it?
I feel like everybody here took a class in Key & Peele rather than common decency and forgiveness.
Muc-Off is demonstrating that they don't believe in forgiveness. They just want to get press in this situation by appearing to be the virtuous one.
Pierron apologized. How did we get to the point where everyone has to burn everybody down? If you're a sponsor, your goal is to promote your products and support the riders and help them get better.
Whether "better" is phyiscally or mentally or socially...you have to lead by example.
Forgive the guy. Work with him. They could have said "Look, you've got to make amends. We need you to develop some form of outreach camp where you work with underpriviliged youth, etc."
Muc-Off just wants to humiliate the guy, not help the situation.
Crap thing to do
I mean, what's the end result here? How much contrition is enough? Will we be happy when, having lost his career at a very young age because of a massively dumb social faux pas, Amaury decides to call it quits and actually off himself? An extreme example I know, but it's happened.
I mean, what do you suggest?
.@endurogan:
The whole point of the outrage around this situation is that a person of privilege is offensively using racist tropes for their own amusement/social media gain. With or without intent to harm doesn't change the harm.
Generations of people of color have had to deal with most of the world around them actively trying to harm them and withhold from them. Black minstrels and other forms of 'impersonation' have spread these racist ideas.
Hopefully AP learns a lot, and comes out of the whole thing as an ally and advocate. That said, I'm not sorry that there are real consequences for his behavior.
However, I still reserve the right to empathise compassionately with how AP must (assuming he isn't ACTUALLY racist) feel right now.
I personally hate to have my intentions misunderstood, I think that's pretty universal. Probably even worse if you realise that although you didn't have a bad intention, you were nonetheless in the wrong. I can't imagine doing that on such a massive scale.
While I think this is a bit of a mountain out of a molehill, Amaury was very silly as a public figure in MTB to be so loose with the N word. I also think Muc-Off are a bit silly to be making him take a racial awareness course, I think he knows what he has done now. Saying that I did learn something taking a speed awareness course after getting caught (slightly) speeding, so maybe it will be useful for him.
However...the main thing that caught my attention when this raised its head last week was that I remembered how many Commencal branded edits I have watched over the last few years with N**** and M****Fu**a in the soundtracks. I think their edits are great actually, but always thought as a brand in the public spotlight they were being a bit risky by having this so prominent in sooo many of 'their' edits. Not just edits that happen to have people riding one of their bikes. I had a quick flick through their official Youtube channel and picked a few examples, not even going that far back. There will be loads more.
Brooklyn N**** I am - 0.56s
www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTrV7GFNo3k
N****s still hating - 1.52s
www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IVtT954kH0
N**** tried to tell me… - 0.51s and plenty more throughout
www.youtube.com/watch?v=x96SF3QR5RA
Hoes and sluts on a kids bike edit, nice!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAdzMpHw3WI
That n**** count my check - 1.36s
www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuwvG_eFlCQ
N****s say I do - 0.26s
www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXB1qx0_aVY
Y’all n****s show her how I live - 0.25s
www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSx8vue42GA
N****’s money come in Roman numerals - 1.21s
www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbr0PxgTAOE
I'm not trying to have Commencal cancelled, far from it as I think that whole culture is madness. Maybe some of their riders or the main media guys just really like this style of rap? It does go well with the vibe of their edits. Maybe affluent people in these French/Andorran regions are quite far removed from cultures where these words can hit the hardest and have become complacent with it? Maybe the issue is bigger than just Amaury and there is an undercurrent of racism at the brand? Maybe it's just music and because it is already out there in the public domain, what is the harm in using it on an edit?
I do definitely remember hearing it in lots of their edits over the last while and thinking that is going to come and bite them in the ass sometime. A brand, in this day and age, probably shouldn't be so lax and frequent in having this in their product promotional videos and edits. Fair enough, the odd one or two over the years - maybe? But for an all white brand with all white riders (as far as I know), it gets a really heavy usage on their soundtracks.
Thoughts?
I'm not sure why listening to black artist use the word automatically entitles you to be able to use it.
Do you really not understand it or are you just trolling?
Say what you will about a brands decision to mix explicit tracks into their edits. But I can't help but wonder how that isn't seen as anything but a predominately young, white male dominated sport embracing hip hop/rap music. There's nothing racist about that. If anything it's cultural transmission which, in theory, is how you bring people together through some common shared interest.
Someone can say and do racist things without being a “racist” (i.e. believing that humans are divided in different races with some superior to others).
I think whites (I am white) need to stop losing our shits when called out for racism.
Better to tell someone (you care about) what you said/did was racist than labelling them as a whole racist because most whites will freak out when called racist and disengage leaving no opportunity to really address what they did/said and grow (in a positive way).
That's worth factoring in.
- George Carlin
But it's easier for woke Anglophones to challenge you than challenge themselves and their social norms. They are cowards in this way.
Im learning fast here but that sounds a bit risky for a white guy in 2021. In a moment of madness I could slip up and sing along. Heaven forbid accidentally from outside my bedroom. Next thing I’m away on a course on the history of slavery. Which is kind of what i was getting from listening to black artists for the last 40 years. Rather going to bang on with the Dire Straits for a few more years and wait for this to die down.
Beside this, this story is a storm in a glass of water. Amaury has nothing to reproach to himself.
Muck off on the other hand can f*uck off. I hate their paternalist behavior which is even more immature than Amaury's harmless one.
So what if it was accepted a few years ago. Society is progressing, growing and moving on. If you don’t like it go back to where you came from (dust…we all came from dust).
But what right does MucOff have for being offended? Best I can tell, it’s a white run company with no sponsored black athletes… Maybe we should let the folks who have a legitimate reason to possibly be offended decide whether or not to be offended. My guess is it would be a mixed bag….
MucOff is clearly using this as a PR move and riding on the wave of SJW nonsense to higher corporate profits. They are easily as guilty of insensitivity and exploitation as AP.
Again, probably not the best thing to post, but let’s see this for what it is.
Metal is too fast for MTB edits but garage rock would do the trick.
Also there are lots of nazis in Asia, they even have temples adorned with svastika. We should start a war.
A wise person said once that if we where to bring to the public square all our problems to spilt them equally with everybody else, we would all go back home happy to carry on with our own problems. I often found this to be very true, and I have my share of problems.
Thanks to the USA politics who were the creators of this non-sense talkin', everyone now should erase lots of world from the dictionary/vocabulary. The non-social media is the next player to push things up to the next level.
Sir George Carlin is now all smiles - I told ya, u filty f*ckrS
Pierron did absolutely nothing wrong, it is all the rest of the crap out there - dirty bastards, commercial interest, fat sponsors hungry for popularity, and stupid social typing souls. As another Nigga used to sang back in the day - F 'em All
They ‘champion’ diversity, but won’t invest in tolerance; celebrate character-growth but only support the end result.
White people enslaved black people and used the word Ni**er as a way to denigrate and humiliate black people.
Black people decided to take the word, change it slightly and use it as a term of love or endearment towards each other. It's been used in black culture to take the hateful power away from the oppression of the white slave owners.
It's not a kind word for a white person to say to a black person. We say it differently to each other but because it's getting do misused we are using it less and less. Some artists still use it because it's their art form and they're choice.
If you're white, you should understand what you're saying if you say it to a black person whether quoting a song or otherwise.
I hope this helps. Peace ✌
Muck-Off is celebrating drug culture with their newest ad. youtu.be/AZJyiOvB0ak . So that is ok apparently. Woke logic is strange.
Racism sexism etc still exist. However the claims about its overarching nature including systemic racism are just not backed up with evidence ( and no standpoint epistemology does not proof anything about group or society level phenomenons)
It's good to see that people don't like identity politics, if that had been the case hundreds of years ago maybe we could avoid this mess.
Curious though, is there a term that wouldn’t cause offence to someone (even when used un a positive way)?
Thats a genuine question btw
Amaury looks 100% legit and let's just stop this absurd thing. Im sure he did not mean to be rude. Just loosen up for ducks sake and listen to some katt williams pimpin da shiettt
I would agree with you if we were talking about collectivism and the true working class socialism speech but not on this issue
With no disrespect intended and you are asking for an explanation, I would suggest you educate yourself (as I have done myself with regards to the subject matter) as to it's origins.
Personally, I think the music's utter grabage, but that's purely an opinion.
If you want to have intellectual consistency, you need to oppose the use of the word outright, by anyone. I'm not suggesting that should be the case, I don't have an issue with rappers using it in the context that they do, but I have the same standpoint if a fan (even of different race) uses it *in that same contex as the rapper*, it does not make them racist. If you think that it does, then that same logic should lead you to deduce that the rapper is racist too. You can't have different rules for people of different races - that is apartheid, that is racism.
You can’t be racist towards someone of the same ethnicity. For example if i called you “Northern White Trash”, it is not racist just bloody rude.
Insulting someone of a different ethnicity/origin/country with a term related to that is racism. Full Stop.
A black rapper isn’t being racist when he/she calls another black person “n****r”. Arguably a bit stupid for it because it glamourises the term and allows people people that are not black (or from Nigeria) to think its ok and justify their own use of it.
There is no “same context” unless you share the ethicity/race/origin(etc).
www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/racist-and-religious-hate-crime-prosecution-guidance
It’s not woke, it’s just a fact
The fact is that AP didn't call anybody the 'n' work. He just sang along with the lyrics of a song. So how can this ever be racist? You at least have to direct you slur at someone (or a group of people) to be racist. He however didn't do this.
I agree that if a black rapper uses the term in lyrics that it isn't racism, of course it isn't. But I have little doubt that it wasn't being used in a racist sense by AP or his manager. I don't deny that they were foolish in sharing what they did, only because it shows naivity to the times we live in. But naive foolishness is not the same as racism. My point is that, if you're truly not racist then you should not treat people differently based on their enthnicity. I don't listen to rap, but I don't have an issue with it or the language they use - it's the business of the artist/s and their fans, not mine. It feels like you'd be okay with white people listening to rap, alongside black fans, but the white fans can't repeat the lyrics, that level of partisanship is staggering.
Do you think black rappers would find it okay for only black fans to sing along to or appreciate their lyrics? Of course not!
There's no need to lose all common sense in tyring to go beyond reason to display that you're anti-racist.
Also, racism towards people of the same colour is not a myth.
Discrimination, persecution, empowerment... differences on criteria affecting rights and liberties of action based on skin color is just racism (even if the consequences are different).
Trying to complicate a very simple (and sad) issue to fit a wrong speech is just lying.
Can white fans sing alongside black fans? That's a tough one and I don't really have an answer that's fair. But because so many white folk are "naive and foolish" it's almost better just to have super clear rule.
I totally agree that AP probably isn't racist, but that doesn't excuse what he did, as it has been perceived as racist. And he'll just have to deal with the consequences whether any of us agree about it or not.
That said as a white person you(we) don't get to decide whether the use of n****r is racist or not, because it's a term that no one will ever use against you. That was part of the issue with Aparthied, white folk deciding what should happen to black folk.
To use an extreme example if you heard of someone who had been caught committing murder or rape (of any other crime that comes with a life sentence), no one would excuse them as naive or foolish. In this day and age there is no excuse not to know.
"Also, racism towards people of the same colour is not a myth."
Agreed. That is a good point.
Do you think things like the Scottish/English racism will ever become an actual issue?
[Personally I just prefer to use terms that offended everyone collectively. It's much easier that way.
Actually the only group of people you can get away with defaming are Christians. Everyone else has faught back to make it unacceptable and/or illegal].
You cannot simply say that, regardless of how unreasonable it may be, that the final word sits entirely with the 'victim'. That is not to say we should not listen to victims, but we need reason to help us ensure we're reacting in an appropriate manner.
I agree with your last statement, 'The best way for it to not offend someone is to just not use the word. plain and simple.' - that would make things much simpler. But then it must not be used by anyone, in any context. If you slice it any other way, you're doing exactly what you think you're standing up against, that is treating someone differently based on their ethnicity.
Credentials? If you want to try and be smart you'll need to provide your own notarised credentials before you use that argument against anyone. No one here is qualified to "assess such judgment" you giant muppet. Everyone is here sharing their own opinion in the discussion, and there's one or two like you that seem to have personal issues that are trying to pointlessly assert themselves above everyone else. Without actually adding anything to the topic. That's how it all starts: the bullshit opinion that you are better and know more than others.
You use a huge amount of words and say absolutely nothing.
Maybe try local politics
You have no clue who I am and know nothing about my “credentials”. You cannot prove or disprove anything regarding that.
You haven’t fully read all my post and have taken one part and used just that… without bothering to read further down to see that i’d already agreed about it with someone else in this thread.
No one’s bullying anyone here, don’t be so dramatic.
Everyone here is allowed to share opinions and if you can’t handle that someone else has a different one to your own it says far more about you than anyone else here. Regardless of your self certified diamond level credentials.
Maybe try adding you own opinion to the actual topic.
You’re projecting an awful lot of you own faults on to me with your carefully worded and thinly veiled insults.
Yours is just an opinion too and its seems in your arrogance and desire to drag me down your forgetting that.
Time to move on because no one else in this thread wants to read this shit show anymore.
Every time someone replies to me i’ll reply back… thats how the game works
"vile"
"retort"
"verbose"
"aspersions"
"absolves"
@tobius done thow dat whole damn thesauras at one dude on a bike site like we on some Thespian Battlerama!!!
The fact that it is 2021 and we are still seeing this ignorant "why can black people use that word" question/argument shows that there remains much to learn in regards to context and historical perspective when examining racist actions in society today.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tt1oTkgXUk
I get it. Been there. Done that.
That paywall can’t come soon enough
I am not a native speaker, there's no excuse for that language. That said I hope - and think - that he is probably not racist, just grossly uneducated on the matter. However, there must be consequences otherwise things will never change.
> Can white fans sing alongside black fans? That's a tough one
The fact you think this is the tough question - speaks volume how bizarre your point of view is.
“a” tough one. Not “the”. Don’t try to change the context.
Yes it is when the song is full of the N word.
But in any other situation, really! Do you actually need that clarified
I used to think that education is the key but from incidents like AP's we can see that the education isn't that effective.
Restricting the use of a word isn't racial segregation. We can see it's already worked in a lot of places because most people wouldn't dare to use it in public and I'm pretty sure none of them feel segregated because of it.
Or is it that you just don't like rules/laws and see them as something to be fought and broken?!
I didn't say that it is. If my understanding of the incident is correct, the poor guy had no bad intetion and was admiring black rap artist. Now he is the villan.
With time people will become afraid of this kind of backslashes and soon we will have segregated culture based on race.
My point being, the context and intention of the person must be taken into account.
Possible insulting and hurtful terms should be avoided because of the politeness and respect. But once people are scared into avoiding them and once they feel they must tiptoe around certain groups of people - the divisions are created.
Context is oh so important. I totally agree!
I totally agree that AP meant no harm in what he said but he still said it and the harm has been done (regardless of anyone's opinion on this shithole of a thread). Regardless of whether you find it offensive, some people do. And if you want people to have their own opinion and choices (and not be segregated) you have to accept that at some point you won't like it. And because you've chosen not to like it, you too have created segregation.
My brother's wife also told us the other day that her 3 year old daughter was taught to sing "Baa baa red sheep" in class. I can only imagine that was to avoid being racist by singing about a black sheep. Strange, because I've never seen a red sheep but I've seen plenty of black ones.
I can understand why people think we're going too far at times.
I will finish this discussion with this:
MLK: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character. I have a dream today!"
He obviously listens to American hip hop and then broadcasts a word, I hope he didn't know the meaning of, around the world on his social media? If you're going to do that maybe learn the meaning?
I'll chalk this absolute stupidity, from one of my favorite riders, up to multiple concussions and a broken back. It better be that... He's had a rough year.
I was thinking about this word and trying to find an analogy for UK people who don't get what all the fuss is about like me. It's the P-word. It simply isn't said. It was used very offensively in the 80s. I would never say it to anyone. I just would not use the word at all, and I would not rap along to songs that said it.
I guess that's how Americans see the N-word. Best left to be forgotten.
MLK - "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."
HOW ABOUT WE STOP MAKING EVERYTHING ABOUT THE COLOUR OF PEOPLES SKIN
The number one refrain of those who refuse to accept and address the ongoing issues with systemic racism. You want to forget about colour because it would mean you don't have to think about the problems minorities deal with every day. It's a request for a return to the status quo that benefits you.
We can forget about colour only when there is a equality and equity in our power structures and systems of authority.
How dare you make that assumption. I know it fits your framework - "Me bad you good", but i'm afraid you're off the mark.
Your point seems to be that MLK was wrong, and that we should not in fact forget about colour? But of course, you are operating on a much higher level of virtue.
You should wash your mouth out using the word equity, you can only achieve equity with tyranny my friend.
This is how liberal democracies have worked successfully last 150 or so years in making thing constantly better .
Our liberal democracies are a wonder. @jayacheess is standing on the shoulders of giants and thinks he is flying.
North Korea claims to be a Republic. Authoritarians often claim to use certain ideologies/political systems to justify their corrupt actions as a cover/to gain legitimacy.
BTW regarding your statement about forgetting the colour of someone's skin, you seem to have done a pretty thorough job of forgetting the skin colour of the person who initially posted this story on Instagram and gave Amaury his corn rows.
Leftists also advocate for social equality through state intervention. That includes policies that help elevate less advantaged minority groups.
They do not advocate for the stealing of land from land owners or the subjugation of the population in order to prop up an oligarchy. These issues are far more complex than just left vs right. Corrupt regimes are often a mix of failed right wing and left wing policies. What unites them in their failure is that they were corrupt.
Corruption should always be the primary danger that a functional democracy is fighting against. Corruption is not left or right.
Communism is the epitome of leftist ideology. Please point out a country where it's implementation has been brought about using the democratic process and that democracy has been left in place after the regime change.
'Right wing politics' are about upholding hierarchal structures, and promoting them as the natural order or things, which seems in opposition to policies designed to level the playing field.
Also what exactly is a world context? Are we talking Western world or are we including more than a billion Chinese who live under a regime that would claim to have left wing ideologies?
But it seems to me @jayacheess is just making a "that wasn't real Communism" argument.
History shows us you don't get to have a fully realised leftist ideology, which I think can be well defined as equity, which is what you were advocating at the beginning of this thread, without corruption and tyranny. They are part and parcel.
@commental you put it perfectly "Please point out a country where it's implementation has been brought about using the democratic process and that democracy has been left in place after the regime change."
Fully realized leftist ideology does not = communism, in the same way fully realized right wing ideology does not = Nazis. We can't have a discussion if everything devolves in to extremist screaming and misunderstanding.
I was under the impression the conversion had already devolved into extremist screaming when you said this.
AP isn't a racist. Don't buy Muc-Off.
"I was under the impression the conversion had already devolved into extremist screaming when you said this" - The fact that you see my comment as extremist screaming is pretty telling. How is hoping for equitable treatment for minorities an extreme point of view? Holy hell, some of you right-wingers are out to lunch.
And this may surprise you, but I don't believe AP is racist, either. But a brand like Muc-Off is put in a shitty position when one of its sponsored riders says the N word a bunch of times. Those of us in the mtb community may have read AP's Instagram response, and are totally cool with the fact that it came from a place of ignorance, and that he's better educated now on the meaning of the word.
But all average-Joe-Public will hear is that Muc-Off is sponsoring a dude who said the N word a bunch of times. That's a shitty PR situation to be in for any company.
Socialist democracies is how nowadays far left supporters calls Cuba or Venezuela.
Move on mate, the closest the left was about gaining some comfort for the lower class was when they resigned on the control of the economy and accepted the free market
If you can't provide that evidence I'll just have to assume you're making shit up to back up your narrative.
"We can forget about colour only when there is a equality" - Actual racism
"equity in our power structures and systems of authority." - Forced quotas on everyone through tyrannical rule.
The path to hell is paved with good intention. I believe your intentions are good, but I don't believe you understand the weight of the comment you made.
I don't buy your Muc-Off argument. I don't think there is anyone that would look at Muc-Off on the shelf and think 'I'm not going to buy it because of a story AP once posted to his Instagram'. It's nothing but virtue signalling.
I know you won't believe it but I'm not right wing, the political landscape has shifted so woke that even my views are is considered right wing. If our labour party could put a voteable party together that is significantly closer to centre I would be fully behind them.
The main base of modern western democracies is the libertarian approach even with some incorporations of post marxist policies (in Europe mainly).
You have to be aware the differences between that (simplistic) view of right and left is not consistent across the world or even with the time. What is "left" in USA could be considered right in other countries like mine, or Argentina for example.
If you are talking about left in it's more primordial approach (based on marxists theories) what you are saying is just not true and I'm speaking about results here not about intentions.
Expecting the police not to profile minorities, or the judicial system to not sentence minorities more harshly than white people for similar crimes is not tyrannical.
I'm not sure if those are issues in Britain, but they're certainly issues in North America.
I'm having trouble understanding exactly where or how specifically you expect tyranny to manifest in western democracies. I've asked before and you've evaded the question. Do you have specific examples or not?
This is equality (applicability of law is the same for everyone/justice is blind) and very different than equity, the words are not interchangeable but seemingly similar.
Equity: "The quality of being fair and impartial"
The problem arises when it's time for deciding who and what defines "fair." In history it's been wise and great people like Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Kim, Pol Pot, Castro, etc. and they might have different ideas of fairness to other people, leading to disagreement.
And no, we're not at a place where this isn't still needed. There are recent studies that show that people with foreign or 'black' sounding names are less likely to be hired compared to their white sounding counter parts when equally qualified. This kind of thing is rampant, and insidious. And it's certainly not conscious racism, for the most part.
Also, stop bringing up dictators. The closest thing we had to a dictator in North America was Trump, and he wasn't left wing, as far as I can tell. If you can actually point to specific instances of left-wing radicals becoming tyrants who are on the verge of gaining power and throwing political dissidents in jail, I'd absolutely love to know about it.
They are pretty much the definition of bias.
Anyway it would be interesting if you can provide them with the full methodology of study, the population of the study and we can discuss properly.
hbswk.hbs.edu/item/minorities-who-whiten-job-resumes-get-more-interviews
Just a few things that may help this conversation a little:
- This link don’t show any of the data I requested, just the results and a summary. Easy and entertaining to read but not informative for stating such things.
- In most countries in Europe (from were Amaury or a lot of people from this thread are), whitened resumes are enforced by law. In some cases they also erase the name of the candidate during hiring process and it’s not a recent measure.
- This article does not support the affirmative action you claimed as necessary
I'm not sure how you arrived at that after referencing my quote though. If you are conversing with me honestly and not trying to construe what I'm saying, which I'm not accusing you of by the way, then you are conflating the meaning of the word equity. We are not talking about equality.
I did answer your question, we were talking about examples of tyrannical equity, of which i pointed out there are many examples of leftist totalitarian states. If you need a clear example, we can say Stalin.
But the question has now changed.
You called for "equity in our power structures and systems of authority". I take that to be through and through equity - equality of outcome and quotas. You are now asking how tyranny can manifest itself in western democracies within that context. The answer to your new question is no, there are no examples. You don't get to have all three. You don't get to have democracy if you want to have equity, you need a totalitarian regime. Conversely you don't get to have equity if you want a non tyrannical democracy.
I think you don't hold the correct meaning of the word equity. Out of genuine interest, what does the word mean to you? Do you believe in quotas and equality of outcome?
No, the idea is get everyone up to a base line, or the same starting line, so that equal opportunity is actually equal opportunity.
It absolutely supports the idea that there is inherent bias in favour of hiring white workers - though the study is not specifically about that. If that's the case, how can you possibly say that affirmative action-type programs are not still needed?
It never said that forced representation is required. Maybe because that would imply participating in a (sadly) very common fallacy: confusing equality of opportunities with equality of results. They can't be more different.
In your comment you are aiming to affirmative actions enforcing results, not opportunities.
Results and opportunities are a much broad issue to be discussed solely in racial variable. The problem with narrow approaches is they don't provide solutions to the problem; frequently different problems.
He also put a picture of him self with CORN ROWS on the same post.
This dude is lucky he hasn’t caught a good old fashion beat down…
Muc-off is doing the responsible thing by pulling the sponsorship from someone who’s actions effected the way people look at their products and company. Commencal should probably do the same just to save face.
I just stated the same things the link you provided and the obvious: you are begging for enforcing results with the excuse of equality of opportunities even when they are very different concepts.
There is nothing in that link that supports your affirmation. It’s just a fact.
If reality (or the link) doesn’t support your black and white simplistic view is not anybody’s fault but yours.
I believe it absolutely supports it. Affirmative action isn't a final step in the fight for equity. It's a first step. It's meant to increase representation, which has the broader effect of normalizing minorities in these different sectors. Ultimately, this helps create equal opportunities because it reduces the bias against these different minority groups.
It's not a direct relationship, but this has been the point of these programs. This should be obvious, but you're bogged down in minutiae in order to win an internet argument.
I'm quite done with this, anyway. cheers
Increasing representation is something that happens naturally as the social and economic of different minorities broadly increase years ago.
As long as this politics doesn’t make differences and they are meant to not empower or harm any collective by some random criteria are fine but when they interfere with qualification, skills or merits of people are just another biased decision and behavior.
Fighting discrimination with more discrimination just doesn’t solve any problem.
Second point even if there was proven to be true bias in hiring that tells only that there is bias in hiring . That cannot be generalized to anything else without solid evidence.
The general problem with social justice / critical race theory / intersectional feminism is that they fail almost without exception to provide solid evidence to back up their claims.
Also they build on postmodernism stating proudly that they are not interested to thrive towards objective truth. This with standpoint epistemology , answers known beforehand and denying to engage to discussions with critics mean that Social justice is an ideology and not science.
If you can't point to evidence of him actually saying anything maybe you need to open your mind to the fact that people like you and jayacheess do more harm than good when you talk shit like this. As far as I'm concerned your misdemeanours are worse than anything Amaury has done.
I'd hoped we had moved on from the mob rule mentality from the days of lynchings, seems not.
AP made this post: "Next level n----tion" in his Instagram Stories, which Pierron subsequently shared in his own Instagram Stories with the caption "Rap carrer in the making” set to Bobnlarry's 'N---- N---- N----' song."
So he certainly typed the N word. If for some reason you believe that's less serious than speaking the N word, I'm not sure what to tell you. You may just be another European who doesn't fully grasp the history of the word.
learn to read.
Yes, he gets a pass because his race was on the receiving end of a word used as part of a many hundreds years long campaign of slavery and subjugation. I know it really rankles you to know that using the word as a white guy might make you look bad, but maybe it's not that big a deal given the circumstances.
On AP's instagram - that's definitely a step removed, and I agree that him sharing the post isn't the same as him making the post. It still shows a level of ignorance that this might not be a good look and that sponsors might not be happy with it.
For me, even if he had directly typed it, I thought his apology was sincere, and he acknowledged that he didn't realize the significance of the word. If I were a sponsor, I might just give it a pass - but I also totally understand why a sponsor might also want to distance themselves.
This isn't woke culture run amok as you like to make it out to be.
As for me, I'm just another European who's capable of critical thinking. You should try it sometime.
And yes, it wasn't clear who originally posted the Instagram story. It was shared by him but not written by him. I'm able to acknowledge that I'm wrong and revise my opinion. Have you ever tried that?
What Muc-off did here was complete BS. As is laying all the blame on AP.
I'm done mate, I haven't got the energy.
Lol, what's all the fuss then ?
So AP gets a "black style" haircut by his senegalese friend, Charlie who's mixed (so seemingly allowed to use the N word, or maybe he's only allowed to use half of it ?) makes a joke, AP, oblivious to all that stupid thing, echoes the joke by quoting a meeeh song and everyone divides by zero ? Wow, what a time to be alive.
From Amaury Pierron's apology; "I reposted a picture, a song, and a term for which I don’t understand the true and painful meaning. If I could turn back time, I would change my actions."
From Pinkbike's report; "Yesterday Commencal 21 Team Manager Charlie Juliá shared a photo of Amaury Pierron with cornrows and the words "Next level n----tion" in his Instagram Stories, which Pierron subsequently shared in his own Instagram Stories with the caption "Rap carrer in the making” set to Bobnlarry's 'N---- N---- N----' song."
From what CJ and AP are saying the song was on the original post.
Personally I think Pinkbike were deliberately ambiguous in their reporting, knowing how many clicks they could generate by muddying the waters. They should be proud.
Nailed it
(Even though it’s not exactly how he meant it)
Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism[1][2] characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy
It literally has “far-right” in the definition. So “Lefty”? Not so much. Nice try though.
the truth vigilantes are burried in like ticks.
you dont think murderous dictorial communist are facist?
thats a rhetorical question btw
I’m sorry. He’s not coming back in August. That must be hard for you. Just clutch your MyPillow tightly. It’ll be ok. Maybe ride your bike to get over it.
Fscism is a radical authoritarian nationalism... left, right it dosent matter, it is an ideology forming a police state, like in all dictatorships forming hate towards others that dont agree and are diffrent..
Mussolini was at first part of PSI (Italijan Socialist Party) and Hitler was a part of NSDAP (National Socialist German Workers' Party, commonly known as the Nazi Party)
The lack of understanding was already clear in those amazing commencal videos that overrelied on rap and making the riders look gangster or ironically gangster. Even if Amaury is French, rap is still heavily American, hence the controversy.
So, do you think ALL black people are rappers?
- NO I didn't say that.
Do you think that ALL black people listen to rap and agree with the words used in it?
- No, I didn't say that either.
Do you know there are many black people that resent rap and the use of certain words in it for the exact reasons you stated?
- I imagine there are.
Don't generalize an entire race of people by a type of music because its popular.
- I didn't generalize and entire race. I said "send all the RAPPERS on the same course" NOt send all black people.
You are generalizing opinions, not me.
It's Bruni interviewing Pierron, talking about the language barriers for the French on the World Cup circuit. They talk about how no one liked them because they couldn't speak English. They are noticeably struggling to speak to each other in their second language.
Racism is entirely contextual and entirely constructed. Expecting someone to be aware of the nuances of a word in a language they hardly understand from a context they're not familiar with is asking a lot- particularly when they're clearly a hip hop fan, which, imo, would just make the nuances of that word that much more confusing. When I lived in France I was surrounded with people who loved hip hop, even though they had no idea what the words meant or what the larger cultural narratives were.
Sure, Muc Off needs to signal that they're not ok with this, but these kinds of gaffes shouldn't distract people in the states from systemic racism becoming more entrenched through legislation.
Ctrl + Shift + N
www.pinkbike.com/photo/21043418
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States
Maybe engage in some meaningful social change instead of gobbing off on the internet
I just offended someone in a parallel universe by calling his mother a whore.
Do you understand now, why people are defending AP?
Perhaps ignorant given the current social climate, but most of the reaction is feigned outrage by self righteous white people.
I met a woman from the Quala nation in Cherokee who is very old and wise. She played basketball for the school & as late as the 1970's, she and her team had to stay on the bus to eat for away games because restaurants they stopped at wouldn't let them in the restaurants.
She said I had no hate in my heart for them. I pitied them because they were taught that.
We only pick what's the hot topic rather than forgive and work on raising the next generation a little better than we were raised.
- Top DH pro and team manager of junior team get into hot water over a racist IG post (ok, not cool, don't do that).
- Muc-off see this and feel the appropriate response is to drop support for THE f*ckING ENTIRE JUNIOR TEAM of whom only one employee was involved, while a single involved rider in the top team gets a relative slap on the wrist with orders for a self-funded trip to a re-education camp.
- Muc-off seemingly are either entirely oblivious, or worse comfortable, with the double standards at play, not to mention the inference that only highly valuable athletes are redeemable, not the support staff.
Have I surmised this correctly? If so, muc-off, how bout fuc-off!
Or have y'all already forgotten about their advertisements at the world champs a couple of years ago?
As a young FRENCH bloke, he'll be listening to music coming out of the US where this offensive word is used in every second sentence. Who cares who is using it, it's being used and sent around the world in popular music. Quite often, music and movies is where non English speakers learn the language from. Would the artists prefer that only native ENGLISH speakers who understand the US slave history listen to their music?
Why the hell would AP think this word is offensive, when it's used so much in his learning source by those it's supposed to offend? How is a young FRENCH bloke supposed to know everything about American history and their historical abuse of the rest of the world?
If people are offended by the use of any English word, stop using it altogether, thus avoiding confusion in non English speakers.
Only then can the use of the word identify true racism.
A lot of people won't appreciate just how multicultural France is and also the amount of African migrants there. Unlike a lot of places, most French people live happily alongside people from other places on earth.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=G39AJrNlWw4
People need to stop pulling racism where it doesn't exist. And the fact that someone can say an N-word and someone cannot - is racism. Charlie Julia is actually black. But he's Spaniard, and Spaniards can't say an N-word either, right?
There is more racism in your reasoning than in Amaury's joke.
Which is funny because USA is one of the countries who still use the concept of race to talk about different ethnicities or skin cors while the common scientific consensus, which also happen to be what is used in western europe since the end of WW2) is that there is only one race of the human especie : homo sapiens sapiens.
Oh irony, being lectured in racism by a country which accept it with open arms.
It is different saying "women are shit as driving", which is a negative stereotype, and at the same type statistically wrong and saying "maybe I can start a rap carreer" when you sport braids that is very common among black hip hop singers.
Oh and you "scientific syntax" point is the same as saying I am not racist because I have a black friend. Caucasian, black, latino, asian, whatever, are not races. Period.
So I’ll appeal to your bottom line:
Dear Outside magazine,
I do not read Pinkbike to learn about politics, issues relating race, sex, class, culture, etc.
I read Pinkbike for mountain biking.
I work in mental health, I spend the majority of my waking hours hearing about, taking about, and responding to stressful issues.
I don’t come to the Pinkbike site to hear about stressful issues.
I come to the Pinkbike site to relax and read sboit mountain biking.
If you don’t get a handle on your content, you will lose me and many others.
We are all burned out on this stuff.
Thank you.
Leave if you want, but I for one see this as an opportunity to address bias and inequality in our MTB community. It’s long overdue
A far bigger problem than the N word.
But while Americans might be very sensitized by this words, other parts of the world might see this a bit less dramatic.
Reminds me very much about all the FUZZ this song created back in the day and how the band was labeled as racists before people even tried to understand what it was about. They just heard the N word and DONE.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ng1ovEr46c
Yep, if there was stock exchange on hypocrisy its prices would be out of charts now.
People, this kind of fake moral (online) superiority show is pretty close to that exhibited by conservatives 40 years ago
Amaury did the right thing : made a mistake, apologized for it. Good guy. No one in their right mind would consider this intentional, deliberate racism.
Muc-off’s reaction is such a display of stupidity and hypocrisy.
Hello Muc-Off PR/Marketing : has it crossed your mind that this could have been leveraged in about 2 millions other ways to raise awareness, maybe first by using the saving you are making on these products to make an awareness campaign, or donate that money to a group acting against racism, etc etc.
Instead, with this half assed measure, you demonstrated that your support to the team is 100% façade, 0% partnership. Certainly informs me more about you than about Amaury.
Muck off - f*ck off.
He did say he is sorry, he really did and he really regret it. I agree that was stupid and I would never say that.
Still this cancel culture is crazy for me. Yeah, stone him !!!!
Where do the Americans come in?
Come on, try to excuse people sometimes, make the world better mountainbikers!
Im sure whilst to many this is a storm in a teacup to others it might be a bigger thing
Its a bit like saying the comments here might be defacto opinion
I personally dont know anyone from a differing ethnic minority to my that even rides a bike let alone will have heard of muc off or this actual topic so its a bit hard to form any opinion
Hoped I won't have to write it down. Thanks @pablo-b
People take the simple way... Absorb media opinion and just copy-paste.
genius.com/Steel-pulse-ku-klux-klan-lyrics
Listening to it used to fill me with indignation, I used to sing along because I loved the song and the message meant something to me. Now I'm just another ignorant racist.
www.pinterest.fr/pin/397442735843810602
What do you want? Tarring and feathering?
I was thinking 6 years solitary confinement was fair. But apparently the firing squad is the only way these days. Can we still stone people?
In fact when we listen to US rap music, we like the rhythm, we listen to the lyrics, but we Europeans don't know the bottom of the story, so we sometimes repeat the lyrics without knowing the meaning, and That's what happened.
Do you know the history of France?
The sanction taken by MUC-OFF is pitiful. They wanted to surf the event and we tried to ridicule AP and CJ. I threw away all of my MUC-OFF products and will never buy them back.
That’ll show him.
Come on muc-off, if you are going to punish someone then actually do it.
Is humming along ok? And what if nobody is around, can you then sing along? What about quietly whispering? Or is this all getting a bit rediculous?
Maybe everyone who is not of Muc-off’s opinion should also take “direct action “
Will steer clear from their products from now on.
Thanks for being the white savior.
„
Goddamn my man you see I can't understand
Why you wanna say nigga to your brother man
Talking black pride then you call yourself a nigga
Don't bring yourself down 'cause it just don't figure
Take a look at yourself and your history
You don't look like a goddamn nigga to me
It's a negative word and the white man made it
Gave you a name to dominate and trade it
Making blood money of his very own race man
And all of this because the colour of your face man
Nigga
(Nigga nigga nigga nigga) Nigga
(Nigga nigga nigga nigga) Nigga
(Nigga nigga nigga nigga) Nigga
Placed and educated in a neighbourhood of crime
Taught from the beginning that you weren't worth time
Liquorstore and gunstore next to one another
With only one purpose so you all kill each other
Leaving one less problem to worry about
That's the way they do it this is how it turns out
And justice for all with the American goverment
I wanna know where all the goddamn money went
We didn't see it and it didn't do no good
I guess you couldn't give a f*ck about a black neighbourhood
Nigga
(Nigga nigga nigga nigga) Nigga
(Nigga nigga nigga nigga) Nigga
(Nigga nigga nigga nigga) Nigga
(Nigga nigga nigga nigga) You're the real n*ggers
(Nigga) You're the real n*ggers
(Nigga) You're the real n*ggers
(Nigga) You're the real n*ggers
There's always gonna be fanatical minorities
The Ku Klux Klan and f*cked up authorities
Conservative c*nts and religious preachers
I don't care cos they ain't our teachers
Living a life they say is free from sin
Then they judge another person by the colour of their skin
I feel ashamed of myself I'm a white human being
Surrounded by suckers to afraid to be seeing
There ain't such a thing called superior race
And there ain't nothing special 'bout colour of your face
You've got a one way ticket to a dead end street
The pressure is on so feel the heat
Media pollution is a very bad solution
Hypocriticat hype is your only contribution
So leave us alone and give your brothers some space
'Cause you're a lousy contribution to the human race
Nigga
(Nigga nigga nigga nigga) Nigga
(Nigga nigga nigga nigga) Nigga
(Nigga nigga nigga nigga) Nigga
(Nigga nigga nigga nigga) You're the real n*ggers
(Nigga) You're the real n*ggers
(Nigga) You're the real n*ggers
(Nigga) You're the real n*ggers“
I read something a few years back about Christianity being in "crisis", with church attendance and Christian affiliation both dropping dramatically in the developed world. As a result, there was a ton of internal surveys and self-reflection going on to figure out why. One of the key takeaways was the conclusion that religion is at its strongest when it is seen as essentially a personal life guide by which one can live a better life. But, it's at its weakest when it is seen merely as a set of rules, the violation of which results in punishment, shame, etc. People seemed to report that the latter was saddling religion the most.
Today's "social justice" culture strikes me as having a very similar problem. All the hallmarks are there. Simply replace "racism" with "adultery" or "homosexuality" or "buggery" or "witch craft", and there's very little difference in how people are acting today in comparison to any garden variety religious witch hunt of the past. The culture is obsessed - almost lustful - for finding "sinners/blasphemers/[racists]", calling them out, shaming them, re-educating them, etc. There's hypocrisy too. Just like 90's preachers who railed against "the gays", who ended up being gay themselves, how many white Gen X/older millennials decrying AP today, dropped n bombs during the halcyon days of "gangsta" rap in the '90's/early aughts, back when your whole life wasn't online and the consequences were less to non-existent? I'd guess quite a few. Simultaneously, there's no overarching story, wisdom, guidance, etc. behind the "rules" of social justice. It is, effectively, just a nakedly punitive movement.
Of course, none of this is to say that AP didn't transgress an important value. My critique is the almost puritanical, public pile on approach to dealing with such transgressions - which ideally wouldn't be catastrophized to such a degree and dealt with more privately. Jonathan Haidt does a lot of work in this space, and he pins a lot of this to social media. Entire news cycles, for example, are dedicated to a tweet where the substance is "X said Y offensive thing". And while perhaps this article is part of PB's shift towards incorporating political/social justice coverage to its website, my cynical side says these stories are basically "porn". They're here, not b/c they're serving some noble purpose of "ending racism", but b/c an article posted on 7/30 is still getting tons of hits and rage comments today, and will continue to for days and weeks ahead. You will note that vitalmtb apparently did not cover this story; which is to their credit, in my book.
I've only discovered Haidt's work within the past 2 years or so, but cannot recommend his findings enough! Great insights for anyone who spends any amount of time online every week (many of us). Haidt is a PhD in Social Psychology, and well credentialed, published and cited. For anyone who is curious or looking to make sense on why suddenly 'everyone seems so crazy' these days, well worth a listen to that episode mentioned above.
www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/09/the-coddling-of-the-american-mind/399356
He's been almost prescient. I highly recommend anyone interested in this space to start following him.
It's been said before that the modern information stream is such that the world is whatever you want it to be. This is not meant to be some sort of silly cliché or bromide. Rather, it's a comment on scale. At any given moment, obviously, there's offensive, racist, sexist, homophobic, what have you, things happening. Most of us, instinctively, know this. But, what warps it all is the fact that I can be almost anywhere (in the developed world at least) at any time and see it.
Therefore, it has never been easier for those that control information streams to craft narratives which trigger target audiences and, in turn, line pockets. We have generations of young people whose instinct is to live their lives publicly which, in turn, provides a steady supply of "rage porn" for cynical actors to peddle. What's troubling the most to me is that this vulnerability seemingly knows no boundaries. For example, our current "anti-racism" moral panic (along with other ones: see #metoo) is largely among the "intelligentsia" whereas previously moral panics were among religious fundamentalists. This suggests to me that moral panics are endemic.
As Haidt suggests, no advanced civilization has existed which didn't organize around a "sacred" belief system. But, the developed world is, ostensibly, becoming secular. And, if I could talk to my early aughts self, I would have said that was a good thing. However, as it turns out, the rise of secularism or, put simply, nonbelief, has not killed the strong human desire for meaning, purpose, etc...all of things that traditionally were moored by organized religion. So, what we may be witnessing is a sort of chaotic expression of "religion", but without it being grounded in any sort of cohesive religious belief system. If you think hard about "social justice", it really is just a loop of moral panics and is anathema to everything the enlightenment fought for. But, distressingly, "social justice" is almost ubiquitous at this point.
In my experience, sensitivity training just builds resentment and intolerance.