The Orange Switch 7 Has a Linkage - Sea Otter 2022

Apr 7, 2022 at 14:48
by James Smurthwaite  
photo

Sorry Pinkers, it's time to throw away your Orange jokes... well, some of them anyway. For the first time in a long time, the new Orange bike is not a basic single pivot but instead a linkage driven one. Released today, the Switch 7 is designed to be the brand's flagship enduro bike, and will be raced in the EWS this year. Let's get into the details.

The Basics

At its core, this is an Orange through and through. The bike's silhouette is intentionally left Orange-y despite the new linkage and, as with most of the brand's line up, it will be made in the Halifax factory from the same aluminium sheets by the same craftsmen. In fact, if you didn't notice the new shock orientation, you may not have realised this was any different to Orange's usual formula. Times are changing in Yorkshire though, for this bike, as with the Alpine Evo before it, Orange used FEA analysis and 3D modelling to identify any potential issues with its usual techniques and to rejig each structure to perform better.
The Details:

Intention: Enduro Racing
Frame material: Aluminium
Travel: 170mm front and rear
Wheelsize: 29" front, 27.5" rear
Suspension deisgn: Linkage driven single pivot
Sizes: S, M, L, XL
Price: £7400 GBP | €8400 EUR | $8800.00 USD
More info: orangebikes.com

photo
Of course...

Even though the brand went back to the drawing board on suspension, this bike picks up from the Switch 6 when it comes to its characteristics, albeit with an improved burl factor. Like the Switch6, this is a mixed wheel bike but it now has 170m of travel front and rear.

The Linkage

photo

With that out of the way, let's get on to what's new about this bike. So often, we end up describing a new Orange as looking the same as the previous model but with some key changes hidden under the hood. Well, not anymore.

photo

This new bike uses what Orange is calling the Strange Linkage. Strange is Orange's version of BlackBox and has previously been used to prototype everything from grips to a 29er downhill bike. For this project, the Strange link was all about increasing the progression of the frame. Orange says, "Through the rear shock’s travel, the leverage ratio falls from 2.85 to 2.10. Looking at shock force, this means the real working progression is 36%."

photo

This isn't the first time Orange has used a linkage, its Blood and ST4 trail bikes and 225 downhill bike are the proof we've seen of that, but it's apparently something Orange are always testing, despite favouring their tried and true single pivot. For most of its bikes, Orange will stick with the single pivot for its playful characteristics but this is a bike that needs a bit more progressive for riders whose aim is to hit 10 minute race stages all summer.

photo

Orange hasn't gone with the high pivot trendsetters on this bike and instead, potentially with their tongue in cheek, say, "this race machine also benefits from our lowest pivot position to minimise pedal kickback, and drivetrain induced interference, leaving the rider to do the job at hand." Not content with just one link, Orange has also developed a pair of dog bone links (sold separately) that increase the bikes BB height by 5mm with only a half-degree steepening of the head angle at the request of its race team.

Switching to a linkage driven single pivot means also means that the centre of the bike is lower and there's room for a bottle in the front triangle.

photo

Geometry

photo

Builds

photo

The Switch 7 will be available in one build for the time being and only in British Racing Green. It comes specced with Ohlins suspension, Shimano XT 12 speed drivetrain and brakes, Stans Flow Wheels and and a Minion DHF/DHR combo for tires. It will retail for £7400 GBP | €8400 EUR | $8800.00 USD. More info, here.

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249 Comments
  • 552 25
 A filing cabinet with articulating doors is still a filing cabinet......
  • 92 1
 Yes but the doors work differently
  • 6 62
flag jaydawg69 (Apr 7, 2022 at 15:07) (Below Threshold)
 this comment is going to get 1000 upvotes
  • 11 2
 Duh. It's also a filing cabinet if it's made of plastic.
  • 10 7
 @DavidGuerra: And it would still ride like a filing cabinet even if it were made of cardboard.....before we start going through the viable material options.....you could even roll it in glitter too, say racing green glitter...
  • 5 0
 @darkstar66: Unfortunately I can't relate to that, never rode a cabinet.
  • 32 40
flag darkstar66 (Apr 7, 2022 at 15:21) (Below Threshold)
 @DavidGuerra: Well here's how you do it:

* Save up over 7k
*Buy an Orange
*Ride it
*Cry when you find out it ride like sh*t (optional)
  • 2 1
 I would still take it! Hey Aston, when are you doing the drawing for yours?
  • 1 0
 @darkstar66: Is that the introduction or the epilogue of your review? Where can I find the full version?
  • 4 2
 @DavidGuerra: Nope that's the whole short but sweet version......spoken true and out of genuine experience. How about you?
  • 3 1
 @darkstar66: Your review says nothing, I'm just interested, what bike is it and what did you not like.
  • 56 17
 @DavidGuerra: OK, short version

Orange stage 6:
Main features:
*Expensive
*Shit paint
*Shit suspension
*Brake jack
*Cracked swing arm weld
*Oval head tube from new causing headset creak
*Awful cable routing
*Bearing recesses so loose they practically fell out.

Plus points:
*Bearings easy to replace
*Second hand sales market strong dude to endless supply of mugs....
  • 3 0
 The evolution of the filing cabinet
  • 4 9
flag over-x (Apr 7, 2022 at 16:06) (Below Threshold)
 @darkstar66: I would not take serious a guy who rides a Rallon with a Mezzer.

Orange sucks all day, and I own a Five. The previous pros/cons are spot on.
  • 1 2
 @over-x: Yup he needs an Orange in his life I can tell the type....
  • 2 0
 @over-x: Now that's utterly intriguing. What about it?
  • 1 0
 @over-x: Also, I said nothing, I only asked, so it is indeed impossible to "take me seriously" lol.
  • 6 1
 @darkstar66: Oranges bikes used to be on my shortlist of coveted bikes because they allowed a triple ring and the seat could be lowered a lot. I wanted to do all-mountain on a DH bike before the word enduro was ever uttered... And the single pivot seemed to assure the stability of the rear wheel that my bike at the time lacked... It's not likely that I will have one but I would like to. Just as I would like to have many other bikes but lack the space to keep them and the time to ride them (or the money to buy them). But, I like their single pivot strategy, and I'm not the only one to consider it ideal, even if current consumer trends don't reflect that.
  • 8 0
 @darkstar66: Don't forget their dh bikes only have a 1 year warranty lol.
  • 2 0
 @darkstar66: I had a great time with a Prophet, only hindered by the high BB, so I'm intrigued about your bad opinion of the 6's suspension, although I surely understand that the rest of your experience with the bike is enough to taint it...
  • 3 0
 @Kamperk87: Yup, frame only price is £3500 too bargain!
  • 2 1
 @over-x: if the definition of stupidity is doing the same thing twice and expecting a different result, what is it when you don’t learn from the first 4?
  • 3 2
 @over-x: Hey, check out my fork choice for this Capra. Do you approve?? Could you take me seriously now??
www.pinkbike.com/photo/17962739
  • 1 0
 @darkstar66: Thanks for the reality check.
  • 2 0
 Evolution has beg ...
  • 5 1
 @DavidGuerra: lost me at Capra
  • 4 7
 @darkstar66: I can't help but get the impression that you've had a bad experience with orange bikes. Did it touch you in the wrong places?
  • 10 5
 @darkstar66: You definitely had a ‘bad egg’.
This does happen time to time with any product, I never had any issues with my Stage 6.

As we know suspension kinematics are always a compromise, yes there was brake jack and some kickback in jank slow speed, but in all my years to this day I’ve not owned a full sus that can pump and gain speed like that bike, or be such a great long distance epic ride bike. They also come in ridiculously light for an aluminium bike, equal to most carbon frames.
Yes as with every different bike you have to change your technique to suit the kinematics / strengths / weaknesses.
Sad you had a lemon.
  • 1 2
 #commentgold
  • 3 0
 @fatduke: if only, it might have been a better ride
  • 3 0
 @darkstar66: that's just comparing lemons with oranges
  • 3 0
 A nukeproof pulse and filing cabinet had sex you wont believe what happened next
  • 2 1
 @darkstar66: out of interest which model did you have?
  • 1 0
 @fatduke: Stage 6
  • 8 1
 @DG370: there are A LOT of "bad egg" oranges out there, had my last one hardness tested to find out why it cracked after orange refused to do anything useful about it, (worked out it had less than 50 hours of ride time), for which is failed. Basically off the bottom of the rockwell b scale, had it rewelded and heat treated, and retested, came up spot on, they are not heat treating theit frames to claimed T6. they also refused to acknowledge that this is an issue.

Side not, why the F does it have trunnion mount? a brand famous for side loading a shock deciding to add even more side load leverage to it? well done.
  • 2 0
 @DG370: I definitely didn't I'm afraid......there's lots out there. But to be clear there's a LOT of bikes out there that crack! In my experience top three:

1. Orange
2. Yeti (lifetime warranty though)
3. Nukeproof (especially carbon mega chainstays)
  • 1 0
 @darkstar66: never had an issue with the alpine6 but as folk have said theres bad eggs out there.

I'd add santa Cruz ISG mounts to the list of things that crack easily.
  • 4 1
 @darkstar66: Why didn't you contact Orange and make use of the five year warranty that they offer on their bikes?
  • 2 1
 @HarrySimpson: because he stole it
  • 1 0
 @me2menow: He probably did, along with the Yeti and Nukeproof that he's cracked.
  • 3 0
 @HarrySimpson: and then tried to sell it for more crack....I think we're on to something
  • 1 0
 @me2menow: I think so, he's either cracking bikes while stealing them to buy crack (that could explain the paint damage) or big fat lad that's cracking all the those bikes because he's exceeding the weight limits (that might be why the bearings fell out) ?
  • 1 0
 @HarrySimpson: you assuming I didn't yeah?
  • 4 0
 @HarrySimpson: Sounds a bit venomous that comment mate? Let me guess die hard orange fan? Did someone talk bad about your toys in the playground so you had to get all silly and childish? Awww look at you go.....don't worry take your orange round to mummy, she'll kiss it all better for you because her special little boy couldn't cut it with the adults in the room....
  • 3 1
 @darkstar66: You still haven't said why you didn't contact Orange to make use of their warranty?
Expensive, shit this, shit that, bad cable routing, brake jack yawn but you bought one anyway then went crying about it on here...
And I'm the one that's childish?
  • 2 1
 @HarrySimpson: I'm not cryin, you assumed I didn't, I warrantied the frame, rebuilt it and sold it......its called moving on....try it. What I'm talking about is experience built up over 20 years of working on bikes. Including a lot of Orange bikes. Hey its a free world dude if you don't like what you hear that's based on fact just walk away. You want to try and get personal based on nothing but petty grievance against someone that says something you don't like that's your choice too dude!
  • 4 2
 @darkstar66: Thanks for clearing that up. You've worked on bikes for 20 years and used that experience to buy a bike that you knew was expensive and shit so you could warranty it, rebuild and sell on at a loss. Can't argue with those facts, time for me to move on and move away.
  • 1 1
 @HarrySimpson: Nope wrong again with that assuming you've been doing chap it's easy to hear what you want I guess. Good luck with that.
  • 2 0
 @darkstar66: fella I think you should move on.
  • 1 1
 @fatduke: No skin off my nose man!
  • 1 0
 @darkstar66: have a most glorious weekend then good sir.
  • 1 0
 @DavidGuerra: I bloody loved my Prophet (still have it in the shed!). I used to ride with a guy with a Five at the time and got to try them both back to back plenty of times. Both were great fun and brilliant bikes but the Five had a slight edge for stability, straight line tracking and less pedal bob. The Prophet was probably slightly more fun though.
  • 1 0
 @arna86: Cool. I ran mine on the high position to allow a shock with more travel and get 150mm (hence my high BB complaint) to match the Revelation at the front, and later a 160mm Fox 36. The suspension action was quite pleasantly linear, without really being problematic due to some stuff I inserted on the air can. It ended up with a crack on the BB/seat tube junction, I got it welded and passed it on to some kid who finished it off after a while.
  • 1 0
 @darkstar66: so you have had the stage 5 and 6 then?
  • 1 0
 @Nilsson84: Stage 6
  • 1 0
 @darkstar66: Ok, just noticed the pictures on your profile of a stage 5
  • 1 0
 @senorbanana: Ok, bye bye!
  • 1 1
 @Nilsson84: As you can see I've owned and ridden a LOT of bikes..
  • 2 0
 @Kamperk87: its okay, it will snap before then ;-)
  • 1 1
 @darkstar66: so much nonsense.
  • 54 1
 It looks great, I love the color. British racing green. You do you Orange! All those haters are not building bike frames, and that is a pretty cool job in my book.
  • 3 0
 I’m going to struggle not to buy this if it comes in raw like Guy Martins.
  • 1 0
 Same, id love to have one of these. My last single pivot like this was an absolute weapon!
  • 33 0
 Continental uniions fall apart
world wide pandemic..
The verge of WW3....
Economic collapse....
Angel Gabrielle sounds the horn
The four horsemen ride,



Orange bikes make a change to their single pivot........

(P.S before any political and/religious experts chime in. This post was brought you by the number sarcasm and the letter tounge in cheek)
  • 1 0
 Keep in mind this isn't their first linkage driven single pivot. They've dabbled here and there over the years.
  • 1 0
 @Wamprat: I remember er the blood orange wanted one but no tapered head tube just as tapered head tubes were becoming a thing
  • 1 0
 @naptime: My memory is that it was a copy of the Transition Bottlerocket
  • 1 0
 @thingswelike: same lay out yeah, among others. They where nice, couple of my friends had one but let down by the 1&1/8th HT.
  • 1 0
 @Wamprat: I wonder how close this is to Santa Cruz ABP system?
  • 1 0
 @thingswelike: more like a Santa Cruz Butcher
  • 1 0
 @rivercitycycles: From what I remember ABP’s were a POS. Same theory yes but I think people have their kinematics sorted better now.
  • 21 0
 Nice try but that’s green
  • 21 0
 -sees orange bikes article, scrolls straight through to comments section..
  • 21 4
 ..designed via mspaint.exe
  • 2 1
 Hahahahaha!!!!
  • 1 0
 More like origami for beginners.
  • 13 0
 Honestly, good for them.
  • 8 0
 Looks like a nightmare to service the frame bearings. Not to mention removing the shock for servicing.
  • 4 0
 Totally agree! One can argue on how they like or not riding a single pivot but the main appeal of Orange bikes for me was the two bearings and one axle to maintain especially for people riding a lot in wet conditions...
  • 7 0
 At a guess; unbolt the front end, compression suspension slightly, unbolt linkage end
  • 1 0
 I generally do the pivot bearings when the shock is being serviced anyway.
  • 3 2
 This, but unironically. Orange has gone from oversimplified to overcomplicated within one refresh.
  • 5 0
 I am a FiveEvo owner and I am mostly happy with the bike, but was not happy with the bottom out adjustment and bottle mounting, plus the lateral weakness. The Switch 7 seems to address all of these complaints to a frightening degree. And it retains the traditional orange look, and I can only welcome it unconditionally.
  • 8 0
 What a time to be alive
  • 6 1
 "The bike's silhouette is intentionally left Orange-y despite the new linkage," ......
I dont care about the linkage, just change the orange-y ness of the silhouette!!
  • 5 0
 The only redeeming feature of Orange was a single set of easily replaced bearings. Now that has gone there is even less reason to buy one.
  • 9 3
 You mean a “pseudo linkage”.
  • 18 0
 Pseu....pseu....pseudoooooooo -Phil Collins
  • 3 0
 @kiddlivid: Few here would know that line without the reference. Nice call back to the 80's.
  • 7 0
 @Straight6Rocks: all the kids need to know is in Patrick's monologue in American Psycho.
  • 4 3
 @kiddlivid: Have you heard the good news? Phil Collins is quitting touring forever!!!!!
  • 3 1
 @lightsgetdimmer: Oh, think twice... Before celebrating his debilitating illness.
  • 1 0
 @BenPea: I C what you did there.
  • 7 0
 I want it
  • 1 0
 You got 19.5k aud cause that is somehow the base price
  • 11 6
 yet 90% of riders wouldn't be able to tell the difference in linkage designs vs single pivot.
  • 8 1
 It's still a single pivot... The rear axle still moves on the path of a concentric circle around a fixed single pivoting point. The fact that it has a linkage to alter the leverage curve doesn't change that.
  • 5 0
 So much for citing orange when crapping on Yeti for over-use of bearings
  • 1 0
 Nevermind how it looks. I've been waiting to see a leverage curve like this. Maybe it's been done before and I just haven't seen it. For chunky trails that constantly use 1/2 to 3/4 of your travel a buttery linear feel is ideal IMHO. The steep ramp up to keeps your pedals off the deck - that's what's typically lacking from most linear curves. Also, a little suppleness off the top is always welcome. I'd be very interested to see a full review.
  • 2 0
 I wish I could do better than guesstimate the cost of the extra progressivity in grams by looking at the contents of the fourth photo. Some 150-200 grams?
  • 4 2
 Also regarding weight, something that should have been mentioned here: Orange claims that this frame is lighter than equivalent carbon frames from other brands!
  • 8 12
flag darkstar66 (Apr 7, 2022 at 15:10) (Below Threshold)
 It comes with cracks "built in" I hear...
  • 3 0
 @darkstar66: Bold move to include a five year warranty, then.
  • 5 6
 @DavidGuerra: Just as well, I've had to warranty one customers orange three times for cracking. Two swing arms and one BB.........
  • 3 1
 @darkstar66: So they make the customers do the testing. Let's see if they got it right this time.
  • 3 4
 @DavidGuerra: Well as the dude at orange reported back to the customer "third time lucky".....
  • 7 0
 @darkstar66: so it's still more robust than a Yeti
  • 3 2
 do not follow ben moore if thats who are are referring to, hes not a smart guy - for god sakes he tried recently testing an enduro bike vs dh in timed runs, chose a trail with alot of pedaling and was flat for a good chunk of it.. wonders why the dh lost.. hes the definition of a clown. he'd try an sell you poo that he labeled himself as chocolate.
  • 1 0
 ... which is a claim that has probably as much truth in it as Specialized saying that the Enduro's frame doesn't have a durability problem.
  • 2 0
 well to be fair, they didn´t specify which planet gravity they took into consideration so technically that sentence could be true, if they used Mars or Mercury as reference.
  • 1 0
 @Bruccio: I believe the Orange frame is light these days but it still has durability issues, i liked the simple design so i ran one for a while but after building up two more frames(warranty replacement) in 3 months
2 switch 6 frames and then 1 switch 7 im over them lol
  • 4 0
 nooooo what will we hate now?
  • 26 0
 Judging by the comments... still Orange
  • 10 0
 Ellsworth is supposed to be making a comeback, so there's always that to look forward to.
  • 8 0
 @ReformedRoadie: Not forgetting Pole, we can errr crack quite a few jokes about them...
  • 5 1
 Properly fugly. How does it ride?
  • 30 0
 You push up an down on the flappy spinny bits and steer with the sticky bit at the front with rubber johnnies on the ends. HtH
  • 3 3
 Sorry, but all I can see when I look at this and Orange's other full suspension bikes is: old Santa Cruz Superlight. I know the shock is in a different position, but that rear triangle. I had an old Superlight that I liked but didn't love just on looks.
  • 3 0
 Foes Weasel...
  • 3 0
 I'll throw Santa Cruz Super 8 into the ring.
  • 1 0
 Elevated chainstays make sense if the pivot is ahead of/above the bb (as it should be) and they’re also quiet so that’s nice.
Regardless of opinion, it’s mechanical and structural so form following function makes sense. Moving the pivot and redesigning everything just for a different look doesn’t make sense to me and obviously isn’t of interest to Orange. They know what’s up.
  • 1 2
 Yeah exactly . The point is for the customer, I quote 'perception is reality' and gone are the days for this stupid design (regardless of the way they're driving the shock). If as a company Orange were humble enough to admit the market has moved on, and adapter to the new market demand (as opposed to being a 'Nokia' of phones) they could seriously leverage their hand built alloy in Britain advantage. Instead hell-bent on their 'design' which I do get from engineering perspective, but certainly not from perception perspective they'd avoid the dead end street they're driving down! At the end of the day negative publicity is still publicity, which can stimulate the minority of brand lovers to speak up about some theoretical reason which is based on opinion as well.
  • 2 1
 @SentaCruz: I don’t think Orange is in denial or needs to humbly admit their bikes still aren’t as complicated as most other bikes. To assume they haven’t noticed by now is silly.

They’d obviously rather provide customers the best performing bike they can rather than being concerned with comformative appearance and trends.
  • 1 2
 @emptybe-er: yes I agree Orange bikes aren't complicated, so much so that actually in when I was in highschool 22 years ago for a school project I built my own chromoly frame exactly like Oranges current design, the only reason I built it this way was because it was easy. I also built my own dual crown forks from steel with an air spring on one side (when the only forks on the market were coil) and hydraulic dampener on the other side. Later in life I went on to build a company making niche suspension products for 4x4 pickups. Fortunately I was curious enough to try different designs and figure out the cause and effect of the kinematics, and dampening and what I found over a lot of testing was that there are actually far superior handling suspension layouts than my original design and the only benefit from my highschool design was that you didn't need to break a chain to replace it! It's a shame to see brand with such a great proposition as Orange (hand built in UK) not opening their mind and leveraging the power of their brand by releasing a fresh product that isn't stuck in the ark-ages (mountain bike wise) and delivers a superior ride experience
  • 2 1
 @SentaCruz: I think you’re referring to dampers (not dampeners) and damping, otherwise very compelling. Well, except that “Superior ride experience” is actually very subjective.. we all ride differently and this is why more than1 or 2 designs exist.
  • 1 2
 @emptybe-er: almost all of the pro/elite riders have moved on (as have most bike manufacturers) from this archaic design for good reasons. Maybe it's time to wake up, take a look around and smell the roses
  • 2 1
 @SentaCruz: Good reasons.. You mean fads? If the honda rn-1 from 2004 came out next year they’d have plenty of interest. Although it would have silly wagonwheels because those archaic 27.5 are just no fun
  • 3 2
 Some single pivot bikes: Most trek bikes, Merida bikes, Marin, Specialized epic, Stumjumper, most 2022 XC race bikes from most brands. All the linkage does is allow different suspension progression.
  • 2 1
 Depends on your definition of single pivot. Flexstays can pivot between the BB and the rear hub, and ABP is 50/50.
  • 3 2
 Nah. Flex-pivot bikes aren't technically sinlge pivot, because the rear axle path isn't a concentric circle with a fixed pivoting point in the main pivot.
  • 1 0
 Link-driven like this will also ensure swingarm twisting etc won’t effect shock drive and also stiffens swingarm connection to the frame.
  • 1 0
 Gotta give it to them - priority #1 clearly remained the same. I imagine the engineers blew their brains out trying to achieve the leverage goals without sacrificing that look
  • 1 0
 Well I have never owned an orange bike so can’t comment on reliability but from a looks perspective think this looks stunning, but comments on here from those with experience would definitely put me off, shame
  • 9 0
 If I find myself heeding advice from the Pinkbike comment section, I give you permission to section me under the Mental Health Act
  • 1 0
 @iainmac-1: well said
  • 3 2
 Don’t understand why they are not opting for a high pivot design, adding up to the linkage this might be a killer design…
  • 1 1
 Oh just saw that the main pivot is that low .. ok i take it back
  • 4 2
 High pivot is just a current industry buzz word
  • 4 0
 Looks like a Marin
  • 2 0
 Marin eventually got sick of terrible designs so they did their own lol
  • 4 1
 Isn't it a bit like admitting defeat to concede to linkages at this point?
  • 2 0
 The link looks a little like what the nukeproof giga has gong on, but covered up
  • 2 0
 Orange whenever they come out with a new bike --> www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXO0ylemz68
  • 2 0
 Low maintenance 2 bearing selling point ..... Design engineers " hold up Ive a cracking idea !!"
  • 5 0
 What's that Gromit?
  • 1 0
 Comedy gold ! PBSPT’s (pink bike single pivot trolls) didn’t like a bike with more pivots, more bearings…….. more, more, more !
  • 2 0
 The fact that Orange never sends one (or pays for) to be reviewed by Pink Bike speaks volumes.
  • 1 0
 They don't outsource fabrication so their production numbers aren't big, and expansion might not be in their plans.
  • 1 0
 Still far above that of Ancillotti, another European in-house builder that follows the tried and true approach with their aluminium single pivot bikes.
  • 1 0
 Have to hand it to them, they know their market. This thing is ugly as sin and they've upped the maintenance requirement by adding more pivots.
  • 1 0
 I've been riding for 30 years and have never, not once, ever seen an Orange in the wild. Wonder how many bikes do they produce in a year?
  • 4 1
 Reminds me a Stanton
  • 6 5
 They had the opportunity to eliminate the 18lb swingarm... and they didn't.
  • 2 0
 The question is how well does this orange squeeze?
  • 2 0
 Linkage driven single pivot? English Evil!!!!!
  • 1 0
 Cannondale went heavy at it with the Perp, the Moto, the Judge... And that's just what came to mind right now.
  • 1 0
 Tomac Primer, Foes FXR, lots of Lapierres... All the greatest DH bikes from before you got into bikes probably...
  • 1 0
 MC Shockwave
  • 1 0
 Kona
  • 1 0
 @arden0: Which one??? Konas are single pivots, but the shock is actuated by the seatstays, it's not just a shock linkage.
  • 1 0
 reminds me of the APP system SCB played with a while back , on the Butcher & Nickel ,
  • 2 0
 @darkstar66 a bad workman always blames his tools
  • 1 1
 Care to elaborate?
  • 2 0
 I see product delays hit their April fool's post...
  • 1 0
 Can't believe all the trouble they went to find room for a water bottle. What an obsession for water bottles!!
  • 2 0
 Why does it work out cheaper to buy it in the USA than the UK?
  • 1 0
 New linkage = 3oz of water
  • 2 1
 It looks like they’d just added 34 additional points of failure…
  • 1 0
 They should have called this bike “the backpedal”
  • 1 0
 Welcome to the 21st century Orange
  • 4 2
 Is it ugly on purpose?
  • 2 1
 Tried to copy a stanton but made it look really bad!
  • 3 3
 Orange bikes are like ben moore... - Loud - uneducated - still living in the past.
  • 2 1
 But living a life that would make most people jealous in the sun riding bikes?
  • 1 2
 @justanotherusername: hobbys are always best left as hobbys. that saying is true for 99.9 % of people.
  • 1 2
 @HeatedRotor: Bullshit, I personally know a fair few people who’s hobby became work and they love it - always a flip side to that but not 99.9% of people.
  • 1 1
 You should know !@HeatedRotor:
  • 1 0
 @Durtwrx: In this instance and subject, yes i do know.
  • 3 2
 Bunch of kooks on this site Clueless
  • 1 0
 Simple things getting complicated I love the inverted chainstay protector
  • 1 0
 I really hope for Orange sake they read some of these comments.
  • 8 0
 I don't think they really care about the opinions of comment section engineers.
  • 6 0
 I'm sure when Orange want feedback from middle-aged punters who think they're funny they just go down to the local pub
  • 2 2
 @iainmac-1: Sounds like you'll be down there
  • 1 1
 @iainmac-1: Hey if you go to that pub you'll see this bikes very design on a beer coaster.......
  • 2 0
 @darkstar66: Jeez, how many comments is that?
  • 1 0
 New hinges on the garden gate then,still fugly
  • 1 0
 Orange you glad I didn't say banana
  • 1 0
 I'm waiting on the e-version with the new Lucas Electrical Systems motor
  • 1 0
 I like it but that price is outrageous
  • 1 0
 Thats not Orange...thats Green
  • 1 0
 Better put a rear fender on that...to keep your box clean.
  • 1 0
 Finally
  • 3 3
 why is it green? cool bike tho
  • 1 0
 ..
  • 3 3
 wow what an ugly bike.. I wonder who the hell still buys them
  • 5 1
 They were so cool in 2000.
  • 2 1
 @jbalColgate They sell enough to stay in business. Be a Global player. EWS Factory Team.
Have a 30+ year history Obviously you are too much of a dumbass to look it up b4 making a stupid comment Kook fest here @ PB
  • 1 0
 @Durtwrx: that orange fell apart spectacularly in one of them races.. ugly bike no one seen outside of UK.. goes well with their bad teeth and shit cuisine I guess
  • 1 0
 I like it very much!
  • 1 0
 At last a bottle
  • 1 0
 Blasphemy!
  • 1 0
 FEA analysis LOL
  • 1 0
 It's not finite element analysis analysis
  • 1 0
 sooo Sick
  • 2 4
 Say what you will, it’s still a “Single pivot” just because it’s linkage driving doesn’t mean jack.
  • 6 0
 Like an Evil? Anyone moan about Evil bikes in the same way?
  • 3 4
 Pretty much all designs are single pivots even something like a twin link VPP is really just a virtual single pivot. Commencal and trek are both currently winning world cups on single pivots.
  • 2 0
 @thenotoriousmic: How on earth do you work that one out?

'Virtual single pivot'? - With a VPP / Multi-link system the centre of rotation migrates, the wheel does not rotate around a fixed point so it absolutely isn't a 'virtual single pivot'.

The Trek and Commencal (not the new design though) are single pivots, multi link bikes absolutely are not.
  • 1 2
 @justanotherusername: Haven’t you learnt from last time or the time before that? Go and work it out for yourself it’s quite easy to do. Here’s a hint. VPP = virtual pivot point.
  • 1 0
 @thenotoriousmic: Jesus Christ.

You are literally typing ‘Virtual pivot point’ with the important world virtual and then telling me it is somehow also fixed.

Some reading and visual help for you - www.rotwild.com/rot-wild/knowledge/dynamics/virtual-pivot-point-instant-centre
  • 1 0
 @justanotherusername: or a kona
  • 2 0
 @justanotherusername: All the words in VPP are misnomers if we're going to get really pedantic (which we are). It just so happened when SC and Intense made their VPP pact that the acronym had a nice ring to it, regardless of the fact that it means nothing (it's so often the case with these things). These spurious arguments wouldn't be possible if it was correctly referred to as a Translational Wheel Axle Trajectory system.
  • 1 0
 @BenPea: Thanks for the history lesson - where did I say anything about VPP or multi link suspension being a thing other than a system to provide a migrating centre of rotation?
  • 3 0
 @justanotherusername: Not saying you did. No beef here. Just trying to sell my TWAT concept.
  • 1 3
 @justanotherusername: I wasn’t telling you anything other than to go away and work it out for yourself. I’m not clicking that link get someone else to grade your homework.
  • 2 0
 @thenotoriousmic: Huh? Go away and work what out for myself? That multi link bicycle suspension does not have a fixed point of rotation (or 'pivot') and that a single pivot does?

Maybe we have a different understanding of the term 'single pivot'?
  • 1 5
flag thenotoriousmic (Apr 8, 2022 at 5:43) (Below Threshold)
 @BenPea: It’s a twin link a virtual pivot point is the perfect description of what it it. It’s just two links rotating in different directions creating a virtual pivot point or a virtual single pivot. That’s not all it does depending where you locate these links, size etc you can get them to do things standard single pivots can’t do like shock location to free up space for water bottles or allow the pivot point to move similarly to a yeti but fundamentally it acts and behaves like a link driven single pivot. Anything you could criticise an orange for like brake jack etc you’ll find all the same issues here. Basically just need to stop hating on single pivots because they’re awesome.
  • 1 0
 @thenotoriousmic: a VPP does not act or behave like a linkage-driven single pivot. A linkage-driven SP simply messes about with the leverage ratio, the axle path is still the arc of a circle, whereas a TWAT system (forgive me for sticking with this, I have to convince the patent office that my TWAT is a thing) can have all kinds of axle path, none of which are the arc of a circle. With a VPP, the point is only a point up until the point the suspension compresses, this non-point is not "virtual" or anything else because it doesn't exist, and there's no pivot either, because a pivot is a point and there is no point. Essentially, it's all a big lie.
  • 1 0
 You have no clue about Suspension layout stop spreading incorrect info. You have zero knowledge on the subject kook fest around here!@thenotoriousmic:
  • 1 0
 @thenotoriousmic: how can a ‘virtual’ pivot point also be a ‘single’ pivot point?

Do you understand the concept of a non fixed centre of rotation?
  • 1 0
 @BenPea: Most patent offices are full of TWATs, so proving they exist won’t be an issue. The real problem with your TWAT system is that in many countries selling TWAT is criminalised, particularly if you’re a dealer in them.
  • 1 4
 @BenPea: there’s loads of videos online explaining how VVP system works where you can go and see your yourself. The rear axle rotates around a single point just like a single pivot only it’s a twin link so that point is invisible or virtual according to Santa Cruz. I’m not saying it’s identical to say an Orange just that it has the same characteristics and fundamentally behaves like a single pivot.
  • 3 0
 @thenotoriousmic: That ‘single point’ of rotation is migrating though, it isn’t a single fixed point or single pivot.

It’s not ‘according to Santa Cruz’ it’s how any multi link system works - the centre of rotation migrates as the links move - it’s not ‘invisible’ and you can define the point at any stage in the systems movement.
  • 1 1
 @justanotherusername: You’re just repeating what I just said in my previous message. Nobody said it was a fixed VPP. Read what I’ve said properly.
  • 2 0
 @thenotoriousmic: what on earth is a fixed vpp? How can that be a thing, it’s a contradiction, you don’t have a clue, do you?
  • 1 0
 @thenotoriousmic: Are you really this stupid or just a troll? Just shut up already
  • 2 0
 @thenotoriousmic: I have read what you said, you don’t seem to have a basic concept of a migrating centre of rotation and keep confusing terms and using ‘vpp’.

Simple point - a multi link system is not the same as a single pivot as it is not one, mechanically.
  • 1 0
 @thegoodflow: I think i
  • 1 0
 I think it’s called trying to bullshit yourself out of a position that’s completely wrong.
  • 2 0
 @thenotoriousmic: so what you're saying is VPP is the same as single pivot except for the kinematics and everything else.
  • 1 3
 @justanotherusername: Unfortunately for you I’m absolutely bang on once again. Hard to tell from looking at a video alone but from where the axel is rotating it looks like if it had a main pivot which it doesn’t it would be going right through the shock though with twin links depending on how you arrange the links can even move as it’s going through it’s travel and what’s that bottom link doing? It’s driving the shock just like a link driven single pivot. Better luck next time bro. What is it now like 6-0 or something? I might let you win next time.

m.pinkbike.com/video/479346
  • 3 1
 @thenotoriousmic: you have to be kidding now, surely?

How on earth can you decide upon the location of the centre of rotation of the back wheel from that video?! - you do realise work some bikes it’s actually far ahead of the front wheel before migrating, don’t you?

Just to put this (And your imagination) to rest have a look here: www.santacruzbicycles.com/en-GB/news/346

From the SC website -

‘For a bicycle suspension system, the Instantaneous Center (IC) is the point that the rear axle is rotating around at any given instant. On a single pivot suspension, the IC is the pivot - and it doesn't migrate’

‘ Most common in bicycle suspension is a four-bar linkage with the axle located on a link that is not connected directly to the front triangle. It's referred to as "instantaneous" because the pivot point can move, unlike the single pivot mechanism. Therefore, at any given point in the suspension motion the IC can be at a different location’

Let me know what you think you dumb shit.
  • 1 0
 Holy shit, I kinda feel bad now.... I think he might actually be this stupid.
  • 1 2
 @justanotherusername: ‘ Most common in bicycle suspension is a four-bar linkage with the axle located on a link that is not connected directly to the front triangle. It's referred to as "instantaneous" because the pivot point can move, unlike the single pivot mechanism. Therefore, at any given point in the suspension motion the IC can be at a different location.’ Just like a single pivot you complete and utter moron. Stopping winning my arguments for me while I’m away for the weekend riding bikes.

GG 6-0
  • 3 1
 @thenotoriousmic: "unlike the single pivot mechanism"

"just like a single pivot"... seriously?

The IC / pivot point moves throughout the travel. Often by more than the length of the bike. It literally could not be more different from a single pivot. You can't just assign yourself points for restating the same incorrect shit over and over.... ok well actually you can bc this is the internet but the neg props speak volumes.
  • 1 3
 @bkm303: I’ve always said that the pivot point can move. I’ve never claimed that VPP system is absolutely identical to a single pivot just that it functions in the same way and therefore shares the same issues that people turn their noses up at orange for.
  • 3 0
 @thenotoriousmic: you are literally a f*cking idiot:

Do you realise what you just wrote here- ‘Therefore at any given point in the suspension motion the IC can be at a different location’ - just like a single pivot.

Are you trolling at this point it just this monumentally stupid.
  • 3 0
 @thenotoriousmic: oh and you literally did say a vpp or multi link is the same as a single pivot, here is what you wrote:

‘there’s loads of videos online explaining how VVP system works where you can go and see your yourself. The rear axle rotates around a single point just like a single pivot’

You are one dumb shit.
  • 2 0
 @thenotoriousmic: Except you literally did say they're the same.

Just say you're wrong dude. Guarantee you won't look any worse than you already do lol
  • 1 2
 @bkm303: no I didn’t.

thenotoriousmic (Apr 8, 2022 at 5:43

@BenPea: It’s a twin link a virtual pivot point is the perfect description of what it it. It’s just two links rotating in different directions creating a virtual pivot point or a virtual single pivot. That’s not all it does depending where you locate these links, size etc you can get them to do things standard single pivots can’t do like shock location to free up space for water bottles or allow the pivot point to move similarly to a yeti but fundamentally it acts and behaves like a link driven single pivot. Anything you could criticise an orange for like brake jack etc you’ll find all the same issues here. Basically just need to stop hating on single pivots because they’re awesome
  • 1 3
 @justanotherusername: Haha try to control your temper I’m laughing too hard. I promise not to be too hard on you next time. I don’t like the thought of your crying over a pinkbike comment.
  • 2 0
 @thenotoriousmic: "you are literally a f*cking idiot"
  • 2 0
 @thenotoriousmic: nice try man, not sure how you come to the conclusion that I am ‘angry’ - quite the opposite, you are giving me a good laugh!

Basically you started arrogantly and confidently talking total rubbish and then rather than concede it’s complete shit you have aggressively doubled down trying to make out everyone else is the idiot somehow.

Strange guy for sure.
  • 1 0
 @thenotoriousmic: One more for a giggle.

Do you believe the axle path for a single pivot is likely to be the same as a multi link bike? (let’s use a typical ‘VPP’ as an example)

If you don’t believe it will be the same, why is that?
  • 1 0
 @thenotoriousmic: Yes you did... "The rear axle rotates around a single point just like a single pivot".

By this definition every linkage and moving thing in the universe is "just like a single pivot" because at any instant you can always calculate a single instantaneous center of rotation.

VPP? ---> just like a single pivot!
Short rack and pinion --> just like a single pivot!
Orbit of Jupiter's 3rd moon relative to Venus? --> just like a single pivot!

To be clear, I'm not saying anything about the upsides/downsides of single pivots. But if VPP (with an **infinite** number of pivot points spanning large/infinite distances) is "just like" a single pivot, then so is literally every suspension system. It becomes a completely useless/meaningless statement.
  • 1 0
 @justanotherusername:
There is no way @notoriousmic is married. The level of compromise is laughable
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