UCI Passes Regulations to Lower Transgender Athletes’ Maximum Testosterone Threshold

Feb 11, 2020 at 3:36
by James Smurthwaite  
The Brian Cookson interview
The regulations were proposed after the UCI met with other sporting federations in November. Photo: Matt Wragg.

The UCI has today announced it has passed new regulations to limit the maximum testosterone threshold for transgender athletes competing in cycling.

Transgender athletes who have transitioned from male to female must now ensure their serum testosterone level is below 5 nmol/L, down from 10nmol/L under the old regulations. The athlete must also prove their testosterone level has been below that threshold for at least 12 months before competition.

The regulations were first proposed in November 2019 after the UCI met with a group of International Federations in Lausanne including the International Paralympic Committee, the International Tennis Federation, World Rowing, the International Golf Federation, and the International Association of Athletics Federations. Also in attendance were experts and representatives of transgender and cisgender athletes. The new regulation was passed by the UCI following the meeting of its Management Committee in Dübendorf (Switzerland) on 30 January.

As well as falling below the serum testosterone levels, transgender athletes must also now meet the following criteria:

bigquotes- All transgender athletes wishing to compete in the category corresponding to their new gender must make their request to the medical manager appointed by the UCI, at least six weeks before the date of the first competition.

- The athlete’s file will be passed on to a commission of three international experts independent of the UCI. The commission’s members will assess the athlete’s eligibility to compete in the new gender category and will inform the UCI’s medical officer of their conclusions.

- The athlete must prove that their serum testosterone level has been below 5 nmol/L for at least 12 months prior to the eligibility date.

- Once deemed eligible, the athlete must agree to keep their serum testosterone level below 5 nmol/L for the entire time they compete in the Women category.

- The athlete must undergo serum testosterone tests conducted using a benchmark method (mass spectrometry).
UCI

Kate Weatherly struck back with her first podium since Leogang on the slippery Swiss roots.
Kate Weatherly is a transgender woman who has achieved several strong international results since her transition. She's currently recovering from a broken neck sustained at Mont-Sainte-Anne this year and has confirmed she will not be racing in 2020.

bigquotesThe adoption of new directives in the UCI Regulations will provide the cycling community as a whole with a clearly defined regulatory framework that applies to everyone. Thanks to this consensus, achieved by a working group representing our sport’s various stakeholders, our Federation has given itself the wherewithal to take into consideration – and in reflection of developments in our society – the desire of transgender athletes to compete, while guaranteeing a level playing field for all competitors. This is an important step in the inclusion of transgender athletes in elite sport.David Lappartient, UCI President

The new regulations will come into effect on March 1 2020.


Press Release: UCI

In line with the announcement it made on 4 November 2019, the Union Cycliste Internationale (UCI) approved its new regulations on the eligibility of transgender athletes to compete in events on the UCI International Calendar. The decision was made at the meeting of its Management Committee in Dübendorf (Switzerland) on 30 January.

The new regulations, which will come into effect on 1 March 2020, are designed to encourage transgender athletes to compete in the category corresponding to their new gender, while guaranteeing a level playing field for all athletes in the competitions in question.

What are the eligibility criteria?

Up until then, the eligibility criteria for competing in the corresponding gender-identity category were those agreed on at a consensus meeting organised by the International Olympic Committee (IOC) in 2015. The provision of new scientific knowledge led to those eligibility criteria being reviewed – in particular for male-to-female athletes – at a working meeting held in Lausanne on 19 October 2019, and which was attended by the UCI, other International Federations, experts and representatives of transgender and cisgender athletes. As part of the new consensus, it is agreed that if a Federation decides to use testosterone as an indicator, the transgender athlete will only be eligible to compete in the Women category if their serum testosterone level is below 5 nmol/L.

What is the eligibility procedure?

- All transgender athletes wishing to compete in the category corresponding to their new gender must make their request to the medical manager appointed by the UCI, at least six weeks before the date of the first competition.
- The athlete’s file will be passed on to a commission of three international experts independent of the UCI. The commission’s members will assess the athlete’s eligibility to compete in the new gender category and will inform the UCI’s medical officer of their conclusions.
- The athlete must prove that their serum testosterone level has been below 5 nmol/L for at least 12 months prior to the eligibility date.
- Once deemed eligible, the athlete must agree to keep their serum testosterone level below 5 nmol/L for the entire time they compete in the Women category.
- The athlete must undergo serum testosterone tests conducted using a benchmark method (mass spectrometry).

Once their eligibility to compete has been confirmed, the UCI’s medical manager will be responsible for ensuring the athlete complies with the eligibility regulations throughout their sporting career. Should they fail to do so, the medical manager may choose to suspend their eligibility to compete until such time as the athlete proves that they are able to comply with the criteria again.

In the event of any breach of the regulations, a penalty system shall come into effect. Penalties shall range from a mere reprimand and warning to disqualification and a fine.

The UCI has asked its National Federations to include these new directives in their regulations.


The debates about transgender athletes, inclusion, and fairness are complex. As these conversations unfold, please remember that there are other people at the end of your words. We expect the comments on Pinkbike to be respectful and constructive.

Specifically, please don’t violate our terms of use, which state that any hate speech or personal attacks will not be tolerated. Transgender advocates, social media platforms, and other media companies consider misgendering and ‘deadnaming’ (using someone’s former name) as slurs and personal attacks.

The aim is not to censor conversations or ideas, but just like other slurs and personal attacks, misgendering and deadnaming are not welcome on our platform. Violations of Pinkbike’s terms of use may result in comment deletions, suspensions, or bans. Any harassment, bullying, or incitements to violence will result in lifetime bans from the site.



321 Comments

  • 369 25
 So until you make 'the transition' you can have all the benefits of -growing to be / being - male (testosterone, growing bigger & stronger muscles, more robust skeleton , etc ... ) . Once you've made 'the transition' you expect one single drugs that lowers testosterone to completely compensate all these years of growing up with male genetics? Complete BS.

I find it conflicting because I do believe transgender people have a right to compete. I just don't see in what category they can do that without being unfair to either women, or themselves (if they would compete with men).

A seperate category would be the answer, but there aren't enough transgender atletes to fill these category.


I think transgender people who want to compete, should be honest with themselves. Do you really need to have it all?
  • 93 10
 Exactly my thoughts. I have sympathy for the cause, but sometimes life is unfair and you cannot have it all. I wish we could make it perfect for everybody but as that is not currently possible we need to be honest about the issues at hand and not do a disservice to transgender people. As it stands they're rapidly becoming public enemy number one in the sports world and imho it's a bad thing when athletic competition is diving people instead of bringing them together. Maybe at some point they can have their own class, but until then we need to be real about the potential effects on the women's field in any discipline.
  • 62 41
 Exactly, there aren't enough of them to warrant even 1% of the attention. Yet here we are..
  • 83 23
 @Ian713: Don't agree.

Yes they are a very small minority. But that minority, just because small, does have their rights just like we all do. They face a struggle and I think they deserve our empathy and compassion. But that doens't mean we can't be critical and say the things as they are.
  • 21 164
flag Balgaroth (Feb 11, 2020 at 4:54) (Below Threshold)
 How dare you ?! All transgender athletes sould indeed have a category of their own and more teams should sponsor them, heck why not making it mendatory for WC Team to have a transgender athlete so we ensure there is no more discrimination at the WC levels of our sport ! And if you consider there is not enough of them to create de category that's maybe because indeed our sports doesn't support enough of the transgender athletes to inspire the mass !
  • 8 0
 What's up with this naked mountain biking trend? My dudads get beat up with moto pants on.
  • 32 127
flag chriskneeland (Feb 11, 2020 at 5:05) (Below Threshold)
 Research shows testosterone levels below 25 nmol/L negates all the advantages of being born a male, even in cisgender males. So this rule is more than fair.
  • 42 2
 @chriskneeland: ooww yeah? is it? I don't know where you found that study, but there are plenty of other study's stating the reverse.

Link to that research?
  • 150 1
 Have a Women’s elite category (born as female) and then make the men’s category just ‘Open’, as in open to everyone. Easy. Transgender ride Open, pro women can ride Open if they like too.
  • 3 0
 couldn't have said it with better words
  • 4 14
flag chriskneeland (Feb 11, 2020 at 5:21) (Below Threshold)
 @JWP: *5 nmol/L
  • 16 3
 @JWP: We would all do well to exercise our empathy, that's true. But nowhere did I write any minority group doesn't have rights, so that's that.
To me it's really peculiar how less than 4% of the population receives so much attention. But you seem like an aright sort of person so it's likely we'd both just be decent to whoever as long as whoever was decent to us.
  • 11 10
 The transgender people I've chatted with believe there needs to be a separate category. Once again the UCI avoiding a clear and common sense solution.
  • 17 0
 @dubod22: I think you've solved it my dude.
  • 8 0
 @scott-townes: It stops being clear and common sense when you realize that there wouldn't be enough athletes in most sports to hold a competition. As someone mentioned earlier, the number of transgender athletes is so small that its very rare to have more than one per sport and age class on the world stage.
  • 14 9
 @chriskneeland: Go learn mammalian physiology and then come back for some more intelligent conversation.
  • 4 2
 @scott-townes: It is already hard to have enough competition for relevant and meaningful women category despite women being 50% of the population so how do you expect to do that with a portion of the population that is so small ?
  • 8 22
flag chriskneeland (Feb 11, 2020 at 6:43) (Below Threshold)
 @McNubbin: I read several studies from the last time this was posted. I should have saved them. Two that stood out to me was one study that showed strength and muscle density in trans women did NOT decrease to average levels of assigned-at-birth-females after 12 months of suppressed test under 5 nmol/L. But one study did show that PERFORMANCE difference was less than statistically significant for men with low testosterone and women who perform at the top of their sport. Meaning women EXCEED in performance compared to men with lower than average test levels. You have to conclude that trans women, with lower than normal test levels, ie 5nmol/L will be out performed by elite women athletes.
  • 32 18
 Not to be a dick, but I think that racers need to be honest with themselves. The vast majority of examples of athletes that are Trans aren't blowing the doors off their competitors. They are out there trying, having fun, and being part of their local communities. Saying that some 'other' group can't 'have it all' hasn't looked good on anyone in any sort of long term civil rights issue.
  • 10 3
 @Ian713: and JWPI agree they are like 1% but they, in at least in road racing seem to be doing a lot of winning. When a transgender person is twice the size of there competitors somethings got to give. Seems to me that this is the new Russian way of doping. Lol
  • 36 1
 @wind13: womens power lifting wants to have a word with you.
  • 15 4
 @chriskneeland: Men with lower than normal testosterone levels would have likely had lower than normal testosterone levels for a very long time, if not there whole lives. From what you are saying, nothing is indicating these men are particularly good athletes either, much less elite level, yet they perform at a level equivalent to elite female athletes. Kate Weatherly is evidence of that- as a male, she was an above average rider but otherwise not competitive on the world stage. Now as a female she is top 20 among all women in the world, despite passing all the required tests for testosterone levels for some time now. Were she to stop working out and riding for a year or two, yea she would at that point probably be a lot more like a typical female competitor, and maybe she will have dropped a lot with her time off the bike and not working out due to injury, but she essentially got to jump to maximum female strength by starting as a male, and while she probably can't get much bigger anymore like a male could, she would have reached the size she was far far easier than any cis-woman.
  • 6 12
flag chriskneeland (Feb 11, 2020 at 7:34) (Below Threshold)
 @MTBLegend92: All true. But if we're talking about testosterone levels and performance, we have to acknowledge there are men, with testosterone deficiency, at the levels a trans athlete now has to suppress themselves to, that will never be able to perform at the same level of elite women no matter how much training they do. So the gender debate becomes moot.
  • 4 1
 @dubod22: Brilliant. This pretty solves it completely.
  • 1 2
 @MTBLegend92: dh is not only about stamina and strength but also about mental and athletic riding ability. I assume she raced in the male category before? I think that may be a factor too. The fast ciswomen like rachel atherton and thane seagrave also tend to come from families with fast siblings. But the downside is that with decreased muscle mass the probability to get hurt is also higher.
  • 4 1
 Amen my friend! You're valid in your full expression of yourself, but truth is truth! Separate categories is the answer!
  • 1 0
 @Balgaroth: Look at all the categories at the Paralympics.
  • 2 0
 @Loki87: What about Conchita Wurst? Wink
  • 3 8
flag wind13 (Feb 11, 2020 at 8:57) (Below Threshold)
 @reverend27: We aren't talking about women's power lifting, we are talking about the UCI and mountain biking.
  • 4 0
 This decision like this actually benefits no one. As long as the UCI chooses to make inconclusive, middle of the road decisions - no one will be satisfied. They will need to address this issue again soon. Judging by the feedback this subject receives EVERY TIME it comes up - it seems no one is asking for these allowances, except for a very vocal minority.
  • 1 0
 @martin737:
Doubt she's interested in riding a bike ????
  • 2 0
 @martin737:
Those "????" are a Wink
  • 2 0
 @wind13: i see what you did there..
  • 1 2
 @JWP: links to studies you mention please? You don't seem to have a full understanding.
  • 2 0
 @dubod22: Yes - men's categories are already de-facto "open" categories. They should rename them to avoid misgendering people.
  • 6 0
 @knarf1: It seems like we both agree, people should be able to call a spade a spade if that's how they see it.
My point was that if people hadn't been so quick to champion the transgender victim in their imaginations, we wouldn't have men competing in women's events in the name of acceptance.
So I think you're right, and even if you think I'm wrong, I still think you're right.
  • 2 0
 @JWP: @Ian713 and that number is fluid depending on definition... this all sounds politically motivated. Unsure how change in "gender" impacts skill, a change in "sex" classification with hormones is different. Politics tends to merge the two when discussing discrimination in general, but you pay to be discriminated by sex when you sign up for a bike race... sadly, I feel this will end in a huge shake-up for classifications, only to find popping machined pills of any hormone effects performance so the diagnosed wont get a chance but UCI will allow a insensitive sandbagger to proceed.
  • 3 0
 @wind13: Women's power lifting aside, if you're looking for relevant cycling content, check out the Rachel McKinnon UCI track story ~ www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ipCrGBMtAc&feature=emb_title
  • 2 2
 Being the races already take an entire weekend to complete each category, this means we will need to create an imaginary, Fake weekend- day for the said category to compete; so an 8 day week is needed.
  • 3 1
 @Ttimer: I bet there's more out there than you think. They can form coalitions, advocate groups, etc. just like women had to do for decades to get more participants. If they cannot get the numbers, as already pointed out, not everyone can get their way 100% of the time. That's life.
  • 2 2
 @motard5: Great interview. She makes some very valid points.
  • 3 10
flag SmashySmashy (Feb 12, 2020 at 1:57) (Below Threshold)
 @JWP: "I think transgender people who want to compete, should be honest with themselves. Do you really need to have it all?"
The curious thing about transgender-ism (to me a least) is that it only takes about 5 minutes of thinking about it to realise the undeniable conclusion; Transgender-ism is less about individuals being "born in the wrong body" and more about maximising the number of available sexual partners they can chooose from. It's a dishonest concept from the outset.
I understand this is not a very charitable opinion to hold (And no, I'm not suggesting they are promoiscuous, only that they have taken what all humans do inherently to an extreme and- in all likelyhood, dangerous- degree), but it is nevertheless honestly held. I don't believe it's a conscious decision on their part either, at least ot among the majority, but it should be exceedingly obvious to even the most uninitiated that concepts of gender-identity are fundamentally driven by sexuality and increasing one's sexual (and concurrently social) currency with their desired partners, and next to nothing to do with their identity and sense of self.
Working from that perspective we can then postulate why formerly-male individuals seek to dominate in women's sport; One way the male mind seeks status is through competition. Beating women therefore increases their status in the eyes of their desired potential partners (or so the theory goes).
There's no way a separate transgender category will ever come to fruition, because it entirely defeats the purpose of transitioning, and that will never fly. Our weak politicians will forever and a day cow-tow to minority interest groups that throw tantrums to get their way. Besides, the precedent has already been set (Let that be a lesson on knee-jerk decisions kids). The necessary research to make a full assessment of their advantages (and disadvantages) will never be allowed either, not because academic ethical approvals are so limiting but because the lists of permitted subjects for discusssion and informed debate are being eroded almost daily.
TLBig Grin R: The point of transgenderism is to compete with opposite sex for the opportunity to appeal to a larger pool of potential partners than would otherwise be available to a homosexual individual. Sport is just one way of doing that, particularly for Male-To-Female transgender individuals. Politics is doing a very bad job of exploring this and worse, is actually instantiating it into law that which society is not allowed to discuss or debate.
  • 3 7
flag KalkhoffKiller (Feb 12, 2020 at 3:01) (Below Threshold)
 @SmashySmashy: transphobia is one hell of a drug...
  • 1 2
 @KalkhoffKiller: I wouldn't know.
I've heard all sorts about that cognitive impairment juice known as woke though. That shit'll make you believe annnyyything.
  • 10 7
 @SmashySmashy: as a transsexual man (and a bisexual, currently in a gay relationship - is this too much for you?) who's kinda post-transition and planning on racing for the first time ever (in male category), I may be cheeky enough to disagree. Also wtf?
  • 3 4
 @transportguy: Too much for me how?
I'm simply pointing that out that I've come to understand that transexual-ism is a consequence of sexuality, and does not strictly arise from a conflict between a person's biological sex and their perception of themselves. Of course their perception of themselves is fundamental to the issue at heart, but I digress. I didn't say anything that should or could be understood to mean I don't think you should live as you choose, with the usual, trite caveat "as long as you're not hurting anyone" etc. And while most things in life are not segregated by sex (thankfully), in sport it is an important distinction in the classification of athletes. There's no getting around the common sense notion that by and large men have a greater physical capacity than women, and therefore have advantages in the competitive arena, so they should not compete directly against one another. The same goes for medically-neutered-but-otherwise-male athletes. It's not fair on women to be denied their victories and success by someone who shouldn't technically be allowed to compete against them, but nevertheless does because it was politically convenient. I predict this recent change will only be the start of a series of reversals in the hastily-enacted regulations to accomodate transgender athletes.
  • 2 0
 It's very easy to get caught up in the political discourse and to appeal to sympathy or virtue. But returning to the subject at hand, consider how many trans males (born female) compete in the elite levels of men's sports. Why is there a giant disparity (as created by _any_ number compared to zero) between that number and the number of trans females (born male) at the elite levels of women's sports? The answer to that question will not lead to easy solutions to accommodate trans athletes in traditional sex-based categories of competition.
  • 1 6
flag jaame (Feb 12, 2020 at 14:37) (Below Threshold)
 Out of the box thought, why is there the commonly held belief that women cannot compete against men? As pointed out, some women can compete with men. The idea that the sexes must be segregated has its roots in patriarchal sexism and it is completely out of place in today's world.

This debate would not be happening if it wasn't for the patriarchal structure of our society and culture.

End the debate. End the sexist gender classes. One open class to find the best athlete.
  • 3 1
 @jaame: Open locker rooms i assume to?

Your post was misleading, with "Out of the box thought".It's not, but rather a bid for something that is absurd.
It's not a debate, just you and people alike insist it is, propagating a minority scheme and force feeding into the face of society in order to alter the state of ethics, thus, closing your statement with the proposition to do so.
  • 3 1
 Agreed with post. Cannot agree with this decision. Hope Im not censored. I support everyone’s personal decisions about how they express themselves and what they peacefully want to accomplish in life.

But If you’re Transgendered that means you give up your pursuit of world-level athletic aspirations that have been delineated by gender since time immemorial.

What do you need to prove??
  • 2 1
 I want to say that as long as there is evidence that a transition woman to man gives an advantage they should not allow them to compete. On the other hand i dont agree with attacking either. The thing is I'm more worried about getting shot by some crazy that hates Mexicans then some .03 percent of the population. Trans aren't threat.
  • 2 0
 @reverend27: What advantages are you speaking of? A well-planned hormone replacement therapy should keep testosterone levels in healthy male range. It doesn't give any advantages over males. Over females? Of course, it does - that's why trans men compete in mens categories.

Thing is, as of now, UCI allows trans men to compete in men category without restrictions (this is an official statement). We can't really be sure if there aren't any trans men on the circuit, nobody in their right senses (and I mean trans people who happen to suffer from this condition and just want to live their lives in peace) would out themselves. I as hell wouldn't and nobody would even suspect I am trans.
  • 1 3
 @likeittacky: obviously is is a debate. One can understand this by looking at the number of comments.
We are all humans. That’s what we keep getting told by the media. To me, there is a huge double standard in place whereby traditionally male dominated activities (going to work being the main one) are being forcefully redressed to ensure 50:50 male to female participation, but for some reason in sport it doesn’t apply. To say that women need a separate class is disingenuous. The top women could beat the bottom 75% of men in pretty much any sport. One open class solves the problem of genderism and trangenderism in sport. No need to have categories to give certain favoured groups a chance to win.
If we have an open class, all that will happen is that 100% of women and transgender athletes will have to swallow the same pill that 99% of men already have to swallow. Accept they have no chance of winning at sports and entertainment (which is what MTB racing is) and move on.
  • 1 0
 @jaame: Put everyone in a tournament, or competition in almost any sport or athletic discipline, get everyone to compete over the same day(s), in the same conditions and no sir, the top women are not going to be in the top 25% of all participants.
Other than that, you make good points.
  • 1 0
 @scott-townes: yea for all 3 of them....
  • 2 0
 @Ian713: ok I won’t disagree with you on the numbers.

...

If we are going to go done the path of creating a special class for every ability level or handicap, however you want to describe it; then why stop at six? We could have
Senior men
Senior women
Senior trans athletes (M-F)
Senior trans athletes (F-M)
Junior men
Junior women
Junior trans (M-F)
Junior trans (F-M)
Fat men
Fat women
Skinny men
Skinny women
Short sighted men
Short sighted women
Short sighted trans (M-F)
Short sighted trans (F-M)
Fat trans (M-F)
Fat trans (F-M)
Skinny trans (M-F)
Skinny trans (F-M)
Asthmatic men
Asthmatic women
Asthmatic junior men
Asthmatic junior women
Asthmatic trans junior men
Asthmatic trans junior women
Asthmatic trans men
Asthmatic trans women
Diabetic men
Diabetic women

Etc etc etc....

There are plenty of physical conditions that are a lot more widespread than trans and that are universally accepted as having a negative effwct on athletic performance.

Most would accept that splitting the field into the categories I suggest would be absurd. But for some reason, the same people probably think that we should absolutely defend tje segregation of female athletes into their own category. Why? Ask yourself what the difference is, and why there is the common acceptance of the concept that women (who by virtue of being female have a lower level of athletic prowess than men) should be allowed their own competitive category, but that men with some physical characteristic that inhibits their athletic prowess should accept it and move on.

I think they’re right. If you don’t have what it takes you should move on. And the same should apply to anyone. Females, trans, asthmatics, myopics, kids, the elderly.

What we need is fewer categories, not more.

Can you imagine the UCI introducing a trans category at the world championships? It’s hard enough getting more than a handful of riders in the junior women. Are they going to award a full blown senior world championship gold medal to someone who only beat one other competitor? And if they do, will they be happy to have devalued the currency in such a way?
  • 1 0
 @jaame: The difference is there are two genders: male and female.
There are age categories as well. Those seem to be for developmental reasons as well as an observable trend in performance with age.
I agree with you about fewer categories.
  • 1 0
 @jaame: Honest thought, maybe there should be just 2 categories:
a) Female
b) "Open Testosterone" Male

The female category only allows biological females who are not undergoing any type of hormone treatments unless it is for estrogen replacement (say there is a master level female going through menopause).

The "Open Testosterone male" category allows biological males not undergoing any type of hormone treatments, biological females taking testosterone, and biological males taking estrogen.

These 2 categories ALLOWS anyone to compete, which seems to be one of the argument that a transgender should be allowed to compete.

What this also does is takes away the "advantage" that a male transitioning to compete in a female category has for a variety of reasons. Just seems odd to me that the male transitioning to female should essentially be given the "advantage" aspect vs. having to compete against other males. Then who cares what the testosterone level is so long as their is a "maximum" acceptable testosterone level allowed in competition to avoid genetic males from doping up on excessive testosterone..
  • 1 0
 @kwcpinkbike: that would work for me as well.

Of course I know male/female competitive segregation is here to stay for the foreseeable future.

I just wanted to point out the ridiculousness of the whole thing in terms of the double standards in place.
  • 154 35
 Ridiculous, say goodbye to fair competition for women. There’s so much more that gives biological men an advantage than their test levels over the last 12 months, it could never be fair. I’m not anti anything, but I am pro science, and transgenders are not the sex they claim to be (which is factual), as much as their personality, feelings, and fashion would have us believe otherwise. Real women have enough issues with equality, we don’t need to add getting beat by men pretending to be women. Create a third class, or just accept that you’re a man who’s not on world cup level
  • 47 77
flag Gremclon (Feb 11, 2020 at 4:24) (Below Threshold)
 They are not pretending to be women, they identify as women and or men for that matter and have probably endured anguish most of us cant comprehend. I dont agree with the uci there is a distinct advantage because of biology. But we shouldn't be flippant about what they have been through to get to this stage in their lives.
  • 112 17
 @Gremclon: me, as a woman who struggled to be such a rider as I am today - I don't care what some trans have been through! I want (and all the possible rights) to compete with ... *surprise* ... another women, who like me did the same work all their lives!
  • 48 3
 @Gremclon: And they deserve our deepest respect and support in their struggles. We should all make that struggle less hard.

BUT. It's not because you face a struggle in a certain domain in your life, you deserve a free pass in another. Life doesn't work like that, for no one.
  • 31 16
 @jasminov: But, but, but, but.....think of the fraction of the .06% of the population and their feelings. I think that we need to have all race announcements in Esperanto too.....

(if we do the math, .06% of society might identify as transgender, I bet the same number identify as a squirrel. From there, a very small portion compete at anything at all, from there the cyclists......). So, we are all suppose to cater to a fraction of a fraction? No, I sure wont.
  • 14 8
 @Gremclon: I identify as an astronaut. And?
  • 8 32
flag optimumnotmaximum (Feb 11, 2020 at 4:59) (Below Threshold)
 @jasminov: maybe just quit the sport if a random transgender athlete beats you without putting in the work.
  • 13 0
 @jasminov: Definitely fair to me. This is just a situation where no matter what there will be people getting hurt and sad. Leaving male who transitioned to women compete with women is in my opinion the same as saying "sure who cares it's only women competition anyway" and completely discredit all that the women worked hard to achieve. Refusing those people to compete on the other hand is also crushing their dreams while they probably already had a fair amount of shit in their life as being "abnormal" is definitely hard. And then for those women who transition to men and try to compete with us they simply have zero chance of success which I guess is pretty sad too. The only fair situation would be to have male trans and female trans categories but these are so rare that it is impossible, heck it is already hard in many sports to have enough women to compete to make a sensible category. Doomed I tell ya !
  • 26 1
 @Gremclon: if a person wants to transition good on them hope it works out but they do not belong in elite level sports where they can ruin the careers of other female athletes that have trained and sacrificed for years to get where they are.
  • 5 8
 @b45her: I did say I don't agree with the UCI ruling , and I dont see it as a level playing field at all.

I just dont think it's far to say to anyone going through this, that you are man or a woman just accept it.

The world would be a sad place if everyone adopted that attitude.
  • 3 2
 @RoadStain: well then dress as an astronaut and enjoy yourself
  • 11 2
 @Gremclon: that isn't how life works. that is called 'pretending'.
  • 2 0
 @mtb-scotland: I hope they win HUGE and ban this transgender idiocy.
  • 120 16
 its such a disservice to female athletes.
  • 88 96
flag tobiusmaximum (Feb 11, 2020 at 4:07) (Below Threshold)
 isn't it beautiful when the left starts to eat itself..
  • 25 46
flag usedbikestuff (Feb 11, 2020 at 4:25) (Below Threshold)
 @tobiusmaximum: I thought you guys just had pro-brexit and anti-brexit and then the queen runs the show. They don’t really cover English anything in our textbooks. “We saved them in two wars, watch Austin Powers to cover the rest”
  • 9 5
 @tobiusmaximum: dont get ya?
  • 39 3
 @tobiusmaximum: I think it's really unwise to divide everything in left and right. I find it very seldom in life that things are not complex and can be so easily 'categorized'. The world around us is complex, and you need to analyze it WITH empathy to come to a better understanding.

There is no 'the' left and 'the' right. (maybe on facebook there is)
  • 7 1
 @usedbikestuff: hahaha ... so dumb. Inaccurate but funny as hell dude.
  • 5 9
flag Balgaroth (Feb 11, 2020 at 4:58) (Below Threshold)
 @usedbikestuff: You are right by saying the English, lets already move forward, it's only a matter of time before UK is finally gone as the remaining countries oppressed by the English will tell them to F*** off.
  • 16 25
flag tobiusmaximum (Feb 11, 2020 at 5:46) (Below Threshold)
 @JWP: not really, i don't need to do any such thing. "nations are born stoic and die epicurean" (you can guess where we are)

*for the purposes of what i was referring to: 'womens rights' = the left. 'transgender rights' = the left. 'transgender rights riding roughshod over womens rights' = the left eating itself.
  • 26 22
 Left = women/gay/trans rights
Right = shut up your f*g, you don't belong here.

Nice vision of the world, pal.
  • 6 3
 @StFred: Nice ? Not quite ... Realistic ? possibly I'm afraid.
  • 5 3
 @tobiusmaximum: Which is pretty arbitrary and meaningles linedrawing. Transgender rights are also championed by (among others) free-market libertarians who you would consider right-wing with regards to economic issues.
  • 6 0
 @Ttimer: politics are a sport to people like him.
Pick a team follow and root for it no matter the issue.
  • 2 6
flag tobiusmaximum (Feb 11, 2020 at 7:33) (Below Threshold)
 @Ttimer: i'm not telling you who champions what. i'm just telling you where they came from.
  • 1 5
flag tobiusmaximum (Feb 11, 2020 at 7:35) (Below Threshold)
 @reverend27: if you're talking about me, you just picked a team by stating 'people like him'.
  • 6 3
 @tobiusmaximum: nope i take everything case by case.

The fact that i can identify people who seek to interject right or left wing rhetoric into every post they make such as Roadstain doesn't put me in any category.

I dont think transgender should be competing against women.

But then i am for medicare for all and getting money out of politics.

Ill not be brainwashed by one side or the other.
  • 10 4
 @reverend27: very good. who is roadstain?
with regards to medicare for all, would you agree its a complex situation of liabilities and freedoms, in the respect that once i am paying for someone elses medical care maybe i should have some say in whether they actually look after themselves? i'm from england. its a problem here. people want the freedom to eat/drink/sit their way to poor health AND the security that someone else will pay to pick up the pieces. the reality is you cannot have freedom and security. regardless of the topic at hand. for example, you cannot have the freedom of riding with armour and the security of riding with armour.
  • 2 0
 @StFred: if you’d like to have a better “vision of the world” maybe first recognize that there are good people on both sides of a debate and that not everybody on the right just tells everyone to shut up. Many people are doing their best, given the knowledge and perspective they have whether they would be designated by people around them as “left” or “right.”
  • 10 4
 @tobiusmaximum: why am i paying for rich peoples tax cuts here in America?

We have a problem.

4 people in the Walton family have more wealth then 50% of our country.
Yet they just got billions in tax cuts.

So cry me a river about fat people on the couch.

As a side note i dont have health insurance but i am in good health and have not been to an doctor in 20 years.

And lastly to completely destroy your argument you will always pay for those fat people on the couch.

We pay in the usa $300-$1000 or more a month for health insurance and then still have to pay a deductible out of pocket if we actually need a doctor.
The more unhealthy people on insurance the more we pay.

Fat people on the couch.
  • 4 1
 @reverend27: i was interested in a conversation, you seem keen to feel like you're 'destroying arguments', lets leave it there shall we. just before i go though, we weren't really talking about wealth disparity, so bringing that in and feeling like it guns down something i said is not really relevant. anyway, lets forget it. have a good day.
  • 3 4
 @tobiusmaximum: of course wealth disparity is part of it.

Sorry about the destroy arguments part of it.

You stated something about social health care which is a hot topic over here.

And i stated you will always pay for the fat people on the couch.

You are free to point out the part i was wrong about.

Or you can just go have a nice day.
  • 2 1
 @reverend27: you can blend the two together if thats the topic (there are a great many issues that leak into healthcare and rights/entitlements) and i'm not saying you are wrong, but i think all i was saying was that why should i be out of pocket to look after the health of people who don't even make any effort to look after themselves? you can say 'you'll away pay for the fat people on the couch' just as easily as i could say 'we will always have super rich elites with different rules'.

also, you make out like social welfare/healthcare (our NHS) is not a hot topic over here. i do agree, your system of insurance and medicare sounds like an absolute clusterf*ck, but you can't pretend you're the only country with issues surrounding the collection/distribution of resources.
  • 4 0
 @Balgaroth : i dont remember being oppressed; being a scotsman i understand i am part of a fair union that my country is willing to partake in, i dont remember wales or north ireland telling the uk to 'suck it': and besides that didnt go well last time
  • 2 2
 @tobiusmaximum: you seem like a decent thoughtful person.
Thanks for putting some thought into your response.

Society will always have problems with distribution of resources but it can be better and we should try to do better.

As far as paying for other peoples health care..
Well my house isn't on fire yet i pay for fire services to put out peoples houses that are on fire. Why should i pay?

Should we make the fire department private? They come to your house its on fire the fireman says " im gonna need $99.99 to out this fire out".
  • 3 0
 @reverend27: a valid point.

personally i think we should all stop arguing between ourselves about silly things, gang up, f*ck off the private bankers and install a system where the gargantuan profits circulating in the banking sector and central banking system are chopped down by say 90-95% percent and we use that money to pay for roads, schools, fire service, healthcare, transport and free coffee. and spend the change on bike lanes and bike trails. but thats because i don't personally think families like the Waltons, who sell products to willing consumers, are the real issue in wealth disparity.

i can but dream eh. in my dream, we start by hanging Macron. just because he doesn't even try to hide the fact he's a shady bast*rd.
  • 3 0
 @tobiusmaximum: exactly. You made me smile with that comment.

I've spent enough time on pb today I'll sign off on this high note and go ride my bike.
  • 1 0
 @tobiusmaximum: macron is shady, but a whole family of priveledged useless idols, is not a problem.. Because tradition... UK folk is funny.
  • 1 0
 @GZMS: its nothing to do with tradition and its nothing to do with me being from the UK. if you want to remove the Waltons, stop going to Walmart. if you want to remove the banking families that essentially own the world (and people like Macron) what are you going to do?

i don't think the waltons are idols, but they built a business selling products that nobody was forced to buy.
  • 1 1
 @tobiusmaximum: good discussion! I'll just add that countries with universal public health care also tend to introduce regulations that try to keep the citizens from damaging themselves too much. Like regulating food safety, car emissions, tobacco sales etc. This definitely brings health service costs down.
BTW would be interesting to see a comparison of costs paid by an average citizen in a country with 1. public health care like in Europe + individual costs when you want something extra or quicker 2. Private medical insurance + costs not covered by insurance, like in the US? And the resulting overall population health (would surely differ by country even within categories, but you get the idea)
Surely someone did this already but I'm too lazy to search
  • 1 1
 @tobiusmaximum: OMFG man. Is this about Jordan Peterson?
  • 1 0
 @BenPea: is what about jordan peterson?
  • 4 0
 @tobiusmaximum: I'm pretty sure there are people out there who would baulk at paying towards the cost of treatment when we injure ourselves on our bikes. I know the NHS is far from ideal, but I much prefer our system to that in countries where medical costs are astronomical, and for some, unaffordable.
  • 1 1
 @metaam: Most the costs are defensive and covering the costs of litigation. That simply is a fact. But, what would I know, I live it every day. Until such time that citizens do not see a trip to the MD/DO as a financial windfall - nothing will change.
  • 4 0
 @Slabrung: The Metabo Law (‘fat tax’) in Japan is definitely an interesting concept.
  • 2 1
 @EuanMorrice: So if Scotland is so happy to be part of UK like you seem to say, please explain to me why your country is asking for the second time within a few years for an independence referendum ? I have a few Scottmans friends and they are definitely not too kind with UK especially since many voted to remain in UK as they were worried that they wouldn't be part of EU only to get Brexit few months later. Brexit also showed that Northern Ireland wanted to remain in EU and having a slid border with they Republican siblings is not something they are to happy about. So lets see how it unravels, but the only 2 nations from UK that voted to Brexit are the English and the Welsh, may they remain together and the Celtic Union be formed !
  • 1 0
 @Balgaroth: coming from a frenchie? i jest of course. However, if my country wanted to be independent it would be so, but we voted no, that's democracy; saying anything else would betray said democracy: taking us back to the dark ages. The Scottish people vote 45 percent for out nationalist party in 2019 election; the same as the result for Independence referendum: this in-turn shows no change in my countries opinion, the SNP does not speak for me; or 55% of the country.
  • 1 1
 @Balgaroth : If those Scotsmen you know don't like where Scotland is heading politically: they can leave, so that they can get back into bed with the 'great' EU.
  • 1 0
 @Intense4life: yea, people missed the self-deprecating humor of our American education and world awareness
  • 98 8
 If LeBron James had to lower his test levels to 5 nmol/l for one year and then joined the WNBA I wonder how he would do?
Probably somewhere between 6000 and 8000pts per game. Seems fair and reasonable to me.
  • 87 22
 its aleady been proven that testosterone levels are irrelevant, you cant overwrite genetics with drugs.
  • 21 8
 Irrelevant? Why is testosterone/roid doping a thing then?
  • 9 1
 @KalkhoffKiller: youtu.be/pzg9QtQelR8

That was posted last time around and I listened to it to help understand where things are currently and a woman’s perspective on the topic as it it wouldn’t affect my race cat. They do a good job of summing up the genetic differences and how hormone therapy does/ does not cause those to degrade. Just so a million people don’t ask or make assumptions.
  • 3 2
 Irrelevant how?
  • 7 7
 @usedbikestuff: Testosterone is by far the most relevant factor. Take away the testosterone from male athletes and their performance will plummet.
  • 3 1
 BOOM! I couldn’t have said it better myself.
  • 3 1
 Who proved that Steven that IDs as a girl and crushed the Cat1 Female class?
  • 13 0
 @KalkhoffKiller: most elite male endurance athletes have low testosterone. It's a side effect from the amount of training they put in. In some cases, it's extremely low- look at figure 10 sports 4, 7 and 15 (swimming, rowing, and track and field, respectively): www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5804043 These are males competing at national and international levels.

Why isn't their performance plummeting? Could it be... there's something else related to being male that allows for higher performance other than just T? Something not taken away by simply taking estrogen? Seems likely.

Keep in mind the normal testosterone for males is 10.5-34 nmol/L! For women it's 0.52-2.43, so a 5nmol limit still allows them to be above the typical range for women.
  • 11 0
 @KalkhoffKiller: you are missing the orders of magnitude difference between testosterone in males and females. To the additional point, you are talking about taking something away years after it’s use in the body has done the most work. Taking testosterone away from an 8 year old boy is a hell of a lot different than after fully developing into an 20yr old. Muscle mass and bone structure is fully developed. Removing it at that point is moot as everything is developed. Me restricting my testosterone isn’t going to make my 6’4” frame, bone density, muscle mass the same as my 5’8” wife. She’s has to try a lot harder to keep up on trails or lift as hard as I do. Right, wrong, or indifferent it might be the only way to measure but it doesn’t magically turn a man into a woman.
  • 3 1
 @usedbikestuff: Holy shit, thats some weird stuff. A Woman’s Place UK (WPUK) are one of a growing number of groups described as “TERFs” – trans-exclusionary radical feminists. ‘TERF’ groups argue that they have reasonable concerns about women’s safety and trans self-identification.

Sounds like Handmaids Tale...
  • 3 2
 @KalkhoffKiller: false. There have been gay male Olympic medalists in swimming with almost no testosterone. It’s not the only thing you put into a winning formula
  • 6 0
 @KalkhoffKiller: plummet compared to other MALE athletes, a genetic male will still have huge genetic advantages over a genetic female even if the testosterone is suppressed before puberty.
  • 2 1
 @SangamonTaylor: Testosterone is not irrelevant. It's the main factor. Of course there are also things like receptor sensivity, bone density, dht, individual genetics.

Testosterone is simply the stronger hormone meaning in smaller amounts it's doing more drastic changes to the body then the other way around.

In most cases estrogen alone is also never enough to surpress testosterone production on its own. Most transwomen take t-blockers which block receptors and testosterone production.
  • 8 1
 @Tiez: No. It’s just the scientific fact and common sense.

A TERF is a woke term invented by anti-fact morons.
  • 3 2
 @KalkhoffKiller: nice sidestep. So if testosterone is the main factor, why am I, a fit 30 year old XC racer with testosterone at the upper end of normal, not competing at a national or international level?

Bottom line, raising or lowering testosterone has an effect on performance. But lowering it DOES NOT create an equal playing field between XY individuals who went through puberty and XX individuals.
  • 1 0
 @KalkhoffKiller: yes 25-30% is huge in athletic terms.
  • 3 1
 @SangamonTaylor: Because there are people who have different genetics and training regimes. You are also too old. But I assure you that you wouldn't stand a chance in male XC with female levels of testosterone.
  • 2 3
 @b45her: Testosterone is not irrelevant.
  • 8 1
 @KalkhoffKiller: You sure have a lot to say for a new account created today.
  • 1 0
 @Tiez: I’m not suggesting you have to agree with their purpose. It is effective packaging of testosterone and deterioration of muscle in men. People make assumptions that it affects things more than it does.
  • 2 5
 @eddycheever: that's because I'm a paid soros-shill pushing the transgender agenda to prevent murrica becoming great again
  • 48 2
 Lets look at Kate Weatherly's results:

2017 (Before Transitioning): Best result in Open (not elite) men (NZ national race) - 5/23 beating 82% of the open men with a time that would have had her in 13th out of 17 elite men. Most of her other races were more in the 8-17th placement.
Yes, you can look at older results as well and notice that they were no better. www.rootsandrain.com/rider54373/anton-weatherly/results

2018: (Elite women) Won every single NZ National race including National Champs
2019: (Elite women) won every national race she competed including national champs, 2nd at rotorua crankworx, top 10 at every world cup she competed in including 1 podium.
www.rootsandrain.com/rider136238/kate-weatherly/results

Kate was a middle-pack racer on the NZ circuit. She then transitioned and is suddenly a top 10 racer on the world cup. But people truly think there is no advantage? This is not bigotted or transphobic, this is me stating my opinion that I think it is completely unfair to the women racers out there.
  • 7 0
 Michelle Dumaresq also went from non-competitive in elite men to womens national champion.
  • 3 6
 As I understand it Kate was transitioning already in 2017 (mentioned in an interview with her), which will have impacted her results. That isn't a direct comparison between a pre and post transition. I think you would need to go a yeat or two earlier and then you are also looking at a junior which makes comparison harder again. Its It's a complex issue, and one individual's results aren't going to prove one way or the other.
  • 3 0
 @gnarforfun: yes, it is a complex issue. And no, this doesn't " prove" anything per se, partly because people these days will discount fact in favor of feelings. But it's pretty hard to argue against saying that there is a very clear advantage, IMO. I personally have never heard of a low to mid pack open racer jumping to top 10 in the world in 1 year.
  • 43 1
 Imagine busting your ass your entire career as a Female athlete, to be just beaten by a competitor that used to be male.
Im unsure of the numbers of Trans athletes there are in DH, but if numbers grow (which is great and hopefully does), a new category should be looked into. Not a transphobe btw.. just saying.
  • 45 2
 Happened to a friend of mine. I was threatened by PB with a ban for recounting the incident and naming the individual responsible.
  • 45 3
 Glad to know that the only difference between men and women is testosterone. Nothing else.
  • 36 2
 there is a great south park episode on this subject..
  • 3 0
 Indeed ! Bouquet final for an already nice season imo Smile
  • 24 12
 I am upset that the Special Olympics will not allow me to participate. I do identify as "special". I think that they are a hate group.
  • 7 0
 That is an incredible episode.
  • 4 1
 @RoadStain: first time and last time i will agree with you.

You are special.
  • 3 0
 "Let me tell you somethin Dingle Berry..."
"David Perry"
"I'm gonna roooollll up the other women here, and I'm gonna smoke em!"
  • 11 6
 @reverend27: We had hired a guy for one of our clinics...he started on a Monday. By Thursday he decided he was a she and there was NOTHING he/she was not offended by, upset about or made threats to sue over (he/she could, however, pontificate about homosexual escapades each weekend as he dressed as a woman to then be with men - in language that would get any male staffer immediately fired)

Right to work state....GONE (he/she has since moved to a very liberal city in a state known for criminal corruption). He/she should fit in well.

The fact is, is he was identifying as a she, he/she should have interviewed as a she. The reality is however, people just LOVE to play the victim card and chance they get. It really is pathetic.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3UjxGvTCBY
  • 6 6
 @RoadStain: so one person in a group does something so just throw them all out?
See that's the whole problem with the right.

Black person does something wrong..hate all black people.

Jew does something wrong.. kill them all.

Crazy woman on the bus starts a fight with the male bus driver and gets knocked out by him.. feminist's get their wish. (An actual youtube channel i saw a former friend watching after he had begun his decent into the black hole of rightwingism).

Label them group them up and hate the whole lot.

Fascism gotta love it.
  • 7 2
 @reverend27: Your TDS is showing....
  • 3 0
 @reverend27: True story my friend...so, I got a new certified copy of my birth certificate just today (so I can get a new passport as I lost my other)....well, those stupid doctors in the mid-1970's not only assigned me a gender (that is the word used) as "male". The hurtful people also assigned me a race AND color!!!!! (white and white).

Who can I sue....this intolerance must be stopped!
  • 1 1
 @RoadStain: ya that seemss true.

Just like your hero Ben shapiro you like creating straw men and knocking them down.
  • 2 0
 @reverend27: Ben???? Again, that TDS is wicked.
  • 29 1
 ... (grabs popcorn) ... (and beer) ...
  • 27 0
 (grabs mascara)
  • 16 3
 (grab him by the... ) oh, wait
  • 28 2
 The UCI should just use the racers chromosome makeup to determine which category you race in. XX and XY.
  • 4 1
 “ In humans, the presence of the Y chromosome is responsible for triggering male development; in the absence of the Y chromosome, the fetus will undergo female development. More specifically, it is the SRY gene located on the Y chromosome that is of importance to male differentiation. Variations to the sex gene karyotype could include rare disorders such as XX males (often due to translocation of the SRY gene to the X chromosome) or XY gonadal dysgenesis in people who are externally female (due to mutations in the SRY gene). In addition, other rare genetic variations such as Turners (XO) and Klinefelters (XXY) are seen as well.”

It’s not so simple. The UCI has to make a stand somewhere. The real question is, is the standard going to change every season?
  • 5 3
 @privatejoker Here's a great article and TED talk talking about how just talking about sex (let alone gender) is not that simple. There is a really high chance a number of female athletes are already intersex since it's more common than red hair. www.scientificamerican.com/article/beyond-xx-and-xy-the-extraordinary-complexity-of-sex-determination
www.youtube.com/watch?v=stUl_OapUso
  • 3 5
 @furiousstyles: Fine. Then everyone that races must file their birth certificate. I'm pretty sure your gender/sex is listed there by a DOCTOR.
  • 4 1
 @privatejoker: Doctor's often accidentally mis-assign intersex babies. Or worse, force genital surgeries to fit the box they want to check.
  • 3 1
 @furiousstyles: there are always edge cases or exceptions to everything in life but in general the doctors batting avg is probably pretty close to spot on. We're also talking about ELECTIVE COMPETITIVE SPORTS. No one is forcing anyone to do this stuff. Maybe IF we were sending 2 people to Mars to save the human race then we can scrutinize and make sure we're sending 2 of everything..other than that... its good enough
  • 1 0
 @furiousstyles: Um, having been involved in MANY such instances....there are others who are also involved 100% of the time. Parents.
  • 22 2
 What a mockery of truth. What's wrong with transgenders competing in their biological gender categories? I say nothing wrong, and all right. I would be happy to compete with a man that identifies as a woman. As for women who are taking testosterone due to their gender identification issues, I guess it would harm no one to allow them to compete with men, otherwise they can compete with other women if they stop taking it. They are different situations, what matters is that competitive fairness is kept, but all this worry about political correctness has destroyed the ability to reason and the respect for facts (and competing women).
  • 4 0
 Someone talking sense
  • 25 7
 There are only 2 genders!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • 21 6
 According to a pesky thing called science, yeah. But this is 2020. You may identify as a 10 year-old helicopter if you please.
  • 4 11
flag furiousstyles (Feb 11, 2020 at 9:57) (Below Threshold)
  • 9 0
 @furiousstyles: you do realise that scientific american is not a peer reviewed journal don't you? what your reading there is just as likely to be from an activist as it is from a scientist.
anyway, what they are talking about is totally different from men knowingly transitioning to female because they feel like it, they are genetic abnormalities and totally different to transgender folk.
  • 18 3
 Would love to have a one line statement from Rach, Pompon, Tahnee, Marine, Vali, just to hear their opinions.
  • 55 0
 And risk the public shaming, call for exclusion from competition and loss of sponsors? I think they're smart enough to keep their mouths shut in this day and age.
  • 5 30
flag jasminov (Feb 11, 2020 at 4:30) (Below Threshold)
 @Loki87: smart? You meant weak and coward? Only those lizards can't say what they think and believe.
  • 15 0
 I couldn't care less what those top women have to say about this. On the other hand, would love to hear from those who are on the verge of having or not a spot in a team, being able to be a pro or not.
  • 4 1
 @jasminov: You mean "dog-faced pony soldier", right?
  • 14 0
 They would be unable to speak freely on the subject.
  • 2 3
 @RoadStain: lol. Best you've got.
I could find shit quotes from the fat orange clown for days and days.
  • 2 0
 @RoadStain: and good im glad Biden is being exposed.
  • 3 0
 @Arierep: Here's a teenage track hopeful's story: youtu.be/3DsejTFZQ7k
  • 16 1
 The beginning of the end in women's DH
  • 16 1
 In women’s sport in general, I’m afraid.
  • 17 2
 I know....How about xx and xy categories? Chromosomes don’t lie.
  • 4 1
 ...and XXX and XX male (De la Chapelle syndrome). Where do they go? XX and XY are typical but not the only categories.
  • 3 1
 I’m sure there’s loads of them lining up to compete @slovenian6474:
  • 1 0
 My point is still valid and it's the reason this topic is so controversial.
  • 13 0
 When are they gunna introduce a minimum starting testosterone level for women transitioning to men? I wanna see some roid hamsters smash some DH tracks
  • 10 0
 Surely the only fair ways to allow competition are to have a separate category for trans athletes (hardly ideal without enough competitors and then there are issues with numbers and you cant expect to win a big prize pot for beating 2 other competitors).

Make trans athletes compete in their original categories

Have one category for all genders and let everyone compete together (hardly ideal for female competitors)

If you look at the time difference between Elite level women and Elite level men at world champs, the women's winner would have been in 59th position in the men's category. That means that a transitioning male rider from the lower ranks could essentially dominate the women's field which again seems unfair and unsporting for the women who have trained so hard. Unless the top women get to the times of the top men then it seems more unfair to let trans athletes compete than it it does not to.

Rambling over.
  • 13 0
 I didn’t realize there was so much overlap between mountain biking and freelance endocrinology.
  • 1 0
 The hero we need.
  • 35 27
 I work with a female athlete and yes this is a topic that has been discussed but to call another human going through a transition like this a “fairy tail creature” Is one of the most hateful things I have ever heard. I doubt anyone is choosing to transition just for a trophy and deals on bikes. And this is a perfect example of the hate running through our country disguised as normal
  • 20 27
flag RoadStain (Feb 11, 2020 at 4:33) (Below Threshold)
 " I doubt anyone is choosing to transition just for a trophy and deals on bikes." - let there be no question at all that you are wrong. I have seen people cheat at any given "contest" for a myriad of reasons. As for things being disguised as "normal",,,, again, you can NOT be serious here. I can think of something that is NOT normal.
  • 7 1
 Absolutely right ! It also completely destroys the rational debate we could have, killing all nuance and again leaving only 2 camps.
  • 10 7
 Grow thicker skin.
  • 13 3
 @RoadStain: If some people are willing to destroy their bodies with drugs or injuries to win a medal, like it had been seen in many sports, doubting that some people would be willing to change gender only to get a medal is dumb AF.
  • 14 7
 I think all this transgender crap pretending to be “normal” and in the name of “equality” and “inclusion” is the problem, actually but good twisted logic you have there.
  • 1 0
 I agree that by themselves, hardly anyone would chose to transition just for athletic success. Even though top athletes are willing to do almost anything to themselves for success (which why they are the best). But the accusations directed at current athletes are misguided.

This issue becomes a lot more hairy when thinking about state-sponsored doping systems, however. This isn't a problem right now but it would be negligent not to think about future problems.
  • 6 1
 That is the game plan for them. To see people as a group instead of individuals. Then desensitize..feelings are bad kindness is weakness. Mexicans are rapists etc etc.. group them up label them and attack.
  • 3 1
 Group think and all that. But they currently are using kindle and inclusivity as a mask to get all this pushed as a way that anymore protests against it they can say “but kindness!” and “inclusivity!” Its a total sc and a front and it’s happening in all aspects of life and the world. Identity politics, no thanks. @reverend27:
  • 8 0
 I'm all against the hateful treatment of those who are different, but at the same time, truth must be adhered to by all parties. In this comment for example, you are using flawed terminology, which by itself goes against facts. There is no transition taking place anywhere, only cosmetic transformation. One thing is accepting people as they are, another is accepting their vision of reality, which is often simply not factual. The sexual identity of the body is not something that can be changed. Let's all agree on that and move on... Sports is not about aesthetics or self-identity, but facts, numbers, things that can be measured. No controversy is possible if we simply focus on that.
  • 16 9
 Total BS from start to finish. If a man wishes to be a woman (which he never will be but that’s another story),by all means go right ahead, do whatever you wish to do, PROVIDED it does not impact others in quantifiably negative way.
Trans need their own class to compete in. Once an individual is born a male, the physiology is vastly different from a female, larger skeletal structure and larger denser musculature to name the most obvious. These attributes cannot be reversed.
Simply unfair. Simply wrong. IMO something quite nefarious is at play here.
  • 6 2
 Scares me that 50% disagree with you lol do half the people that see this think you can actually change your sex? are people actually getting that dumb? lol all sex changes do is KINDA make you look like the other sex but in reality your just a dude with messed up junk...
  • 3 0
 @nismo325: couldn’t agree more. The trans agenda in full effect.
  • 11 0
 they took our jerbs
  • 3 0
 I thert dis was emmerica?
  • 3 0
 RABBLERABLERABBLERABBLERABBLERABBLE
  • 2 0
 Who? Heather Swansen?
  • 7 1
 So you feel like you're a woman, but your body does not and is not. So you surgically and hormonally alter your body to mimic that of a woman but will never be able to get there biologically. I'm sorry but you are still not a woman, regardless of how offended you get. And no one can argue against this, not even women who are suffering the most here, because they will be labeled as intolerant and crucified publicly - it is possibly career ending. It's like that celebrity said, to what extent do we have to participate in your self-image? I don't see how the sports world will ever overcome these issues. It's a tough one.
  • 9 3
 People are so profoundly ignorant of human development that it is difficult to have any kind of public debate about this topic. Unless you are an autodidact well read in biology or have a degree in a biology/medicine/kinesiology/etc., you probably don't have any understanding of what 'sexually dimorphism' means or its implications for human performance.

There are thousands of differences between men and women which begin in human development as testosterone acts on the fetus. Most of these differences are tiny when looked at discretely, but very significant when aggregated into a adult male or adult female.

It's a joke to think playing with hormone levels could ever create a level-playing field.
  • 1 0
 Yeah, I'm guessing you're the autodidact who thinks he's well-read.
  • 1 0
 @werics: I wish. I had to sit through lectures. Hard to be much of a autodidact spending your time in comment sections.
  • 9 0
 Sooooo tired of this S$%t..Frown
  • 7 2
 New idea: 3 class separations, remove ALL gender labels.
XX limited class: XX chromosome only, genetic and drug testing in place
XY limited class: XY chromosome only, genetic and drug testing in place
UNLIMITED class: Do whatever the eff you want. Seriously. No testing, free for all, all performance enhancements allowed. Want to shoot up some bull semen and install cyborg legs? Sounds good, I'd watch that race.
  • 11 8
 No matter what you think about the issue, you should read this: www.nytimes.com/2019/12/05/opinion/i-won-a-world-championship-some-people-arent-happy.html

Also, there is a place for being concerned about the nature of competition. This discussion does not need to include the hate and vitriol found here.
  • 1 3
 Nice article.
  • 6 1
 I have some issues with this article. It's all purely anecdotal. Yes, SHE get's beaten by women. Yes, SHE's got no test in her system since 2012. She only always talks about herself. How does that translate to everyone else. There absolutely are chances of gender fraud in the future.
There definitely is a solution to all of this. But it's not as easy as: "Let's look at the athlete's blood work 6 weeks before the race to determine if they have an unfair advantage."
  • 5 4
 @colincolin: I linked the article more to humanize the situation. Unfortunately, many folks in this thread forget that there are actual people involved.
  • 6 0
 @bikekrieg This is about fair competition, I get your trying to "humanize the situation" but its not fair for all the athletes involved if trans are competing with women. what about all the girls that lose out on a lives worth of work just because some man decided he was now a woman? Are these girls not human also? so why should the trans persons feelings be more important?
  • 7 0
 Its a good article and gives some good insight. Sure she loses to other women, fine. But in reality, she would have never even been at men's worlds on the track. She would be racing local events at best, but now all of a sudden she is winning women's masters worlds. Its the same with Kate Weatherly in DH. She was a mid-pack elite (not pro) racer on the Kiwi circuit....since transitioning, she has won 3 NZ national champs and podiumed world cups. YES....she gets beaten by other women, absolutely. But the advantage is pretty obvious, even if it doesn't get you all the way to the top of the podium.
  • 3 4
 @nismo325: Its the sort of language you are using here that is hurtful and unnecessary. You need to understand that people don't just "decide" to transition as if they are picking out a new outfit or changing their hairstyle. It is a tremendously difficult process and people who transition feel compelled to do so.
  • 7 2
 @bikekrieg: If my language is to hurtful you need toughen up, after all you live in a country of free speech. Also being a trans is most definitely a decision. They are the ones deciding to alter their bodies testosterone levels, appearance and they make the decision to compete agains others of the opposite sex.
  • 1 6
flag bikekrieg (Feb 11, 2020 at 12:07) (Below Threshold)
 @nismo325: I think you might look back at this conversation one day the way people who fought against de-segregation look back now.
  • 5 0
 @bikekrieg: you need to understand that women racers dont just "decide" to win a world cup, it is a tremendously difficult process and women who dedicate their best years to racing feel compelled to do so... so we should ensure we provide them with a level playing field.
  • 5 1
 @nismo325: Free speech is no defence to spout hate, my friend.
  • 2 0
 the problem is that this person before transitioning would have been blown into the weeds at the velodrome by a 12 year old club level sprinter, change a few letters on some legal documents and hey presto gold medal winner and world champion.
wonder if she was world class as a male cyclist before transitioning?
  • 2 0
 @bikekrieg: Like you said, there are people involved: www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DsejTFZQ7k&feature=youtu.be
I have total respect for the decision to transition etc... but, if were to become a transwoman, I would still feel that I am cheating in any sport/competition I chose to enter against born women, and I would much more prefer to enter men category and lose, than enter women and win/placebetterbecauseofmynature
  • 4 1
 If men already compete with men, and home compete against women, why not just form another devision and cal it Pot Luck, Goulash or something. It's kind of a free for all for those that might not feel dialed on the plumbing you were given.
  • 8 0
 Want off this planet
  • 4 0
 Best comment of the section
  • 13 7
 Females have XX chromosomes. End of fucking story
  • 5 2
 And then you've got Triple X syndrome and De la Chapelle syndrome (XX male) you'd have to clarify for.
  • 5 0
 @slovenian6474: I like David Chapelle.
  • 5 0
 @slovenian6474: Don't forget people with AIS which are XY but develop as women!
  • 2 0
 Oh boy, this might open some floodgates. One other reader said this, but didn't necessarily come to the same idea I had. It is pretty easy to find some base numbers, which are below:

"Normal measurements for these tests:

Male: 300 to 1,000 nanograms per deciliter (ng/dL) or 10.41 to 34.70 nanomoles per liter (nmol/L)
Female: 15 to 70 ng/dL or 0.52 to 2.43 nmol/L
The examples above are common measurements for results for these tests. Normal value ranges may vary slightly among different laboratories."

If you take the EPO analogy of hematocrit level rules, it is in theory not illegal to cheat, it is illegal to be above a 50% level or whatever it is. Also in theory, it is the elite athlete's job to be as high as possible without going over.

So, with the new rules, is it the job of the elite women to be as close to 5nmol/L as possible (double natural norm) if this can give a performance advantage? I would think so, if just a little more muscle mass prevented injury, if just a little more muscle mass allowed for a better sprint, if just a little more...
  • 2 1
 I'm curious how they are defining "normal" Are we talking about athlete ranges or general population ranges? And are we talking about 1 or 2 standards deviation from the mean?
  • 8 2
 Pick a gender & be a dick about it
  • 4 0
 All the legitimate female athletes should boycott the race, power to the people! No good reason why a mentally ill boy should be on the same track as females , period
  • 2 0
 Every Human deserves equal rights, right up till it negatively effects others. What about the rights of the women to fair competition? They work their tail's off to have someone show up with a natural advantage and take their spot like Rachel Mckinnon has. She deserves every human right and I would fight anyone who tried to take them away from her. UCI Track World Champion is not a human right.
  • 4 3
 A complex issue with almost certainly the most complex of answers of modern times.

We are biologically a binary species. A simple A and B when we get to brass tacks but that's where it ends. To find a simple, all encompassing solution to the inclusion of trans, and non gender people, involves a very careful and sensitive approach.

There are distinct advantages to male bodies over females, not just testosterone - ligament placement and small variations in bone structure just two minor details that can have significant effects on performance.

And whilst I get the whole they "can't have their cake and eat it" sentiment that's not entirely fair. And I certainly don't think a mean decides he want to become a woman just to 'cheat'. Was it fair that he/she was born a man/woman and so must be denied the opportunities and benefits of those who were fortunately to be born comfortably in their own skin? But that's okay, because 99.99% of us here have never experienced the physiological and emotion strain of what a trans individual goes though minute by minute.

We must find a solution but I think we may need to look at the bigger picture rather than trying to frame it into a A/B system that is no longer adequate.
  • 5 2
 did you really need to post this link like 10 times on this page? no one cares about the article lol
  • 3 1
 @nismo325: There is no point in talking about a topic people don't actually know about. The facts come first, then we can discuss what that means for the sport.
  • 3 0
 @furiousstyles: maybe post something from a peer reviewed journal then not a comic like scientific american.
  • 2 1
 @furiousstyles: question..has anyone with this rate genetic disorder competed at a professional level?
  • 6 1
 Born a boy, battle with the boys.
  • 4 1
 It’s called woman’s Category for a Reason. And when all said and done it should Biological Woman making the decision of Who or what competes in Woman category.
  • 8 4
 I'm male and barely qualifying in Cat 1. How do I win championships in Pro?

Easy, identify as female!
  • 4 2
 Shirts and Skins.... or in this case.. Dicks on the Left, Bleeders on the Right.. Queue FuriousStyles with a retort with some edge case TED talk or wiki article that not all Bleed (dont point out menopause or amenorrhea)
  • 2 1
 You don't get to pick your own facts. The links I posted are good introductory material that I give all my students when we talk about these topics.
  • 1 0
 But no one asks the women do they, and cant ask the racers , cause they will be labeled genderphobic, if they answered honestly and get attacked by the rainbow squad. If you wanna be man/woman or a woman / man all good too you but it is blatantly not fair, in the sporting environment.

www.facebook.com/TheDailySignalNews/videos/404459456890617/?v=404459456890617&external_log_id=ccab981ef988cb0ccf737e05423d77f4&q=transgender%20athlete
  • 2 2
 Surely the only way to have a level playing field without all this BS on how to govern or limit people would be to open the men's category to transgender women (and vice versa to transgender men)
Unless I'm missing a greater issue here?
  • 1 1
 This one seems like a tough one:
"
The athlete must prove that their serum testosterone level has been below 5 nmol/L for at least 12 months prior to the eligibility date.
"
Maybe transsexuals or at least competitive transsexual athletes already keep track of their testosterone levels in way that is deemed solid enough to serve as proof. But otherwise these athletes are screwed. The regulations have only been proposed in November last year and only just passed. If they want to compete in March this year then they should at least have proof of their testosterone levels since March last year. Were they already aware of that back then. Now I recall Kate commented here in the comment section that her levels were way below the 10nmol/L and probably also way below the current 5nmol/L limit so probably it isn't that much of an issue. But to me it seems like a massive bummer if an athlete has risen a smidge above the 5nmol/L level last year which didn't seem like an issue back then but suddenly puts her out of competition, with all preparation (training, sponsors, logistic, gear) already sorted. The stricter regulations are probably fair but the timing really sucks. It is like requiring a larger number of UCI points collected in order to compete. It may not be an issue for the top athletes and if you report so timely it is all fair enough. But to so almost halfway Februari is just too late.
  • 5 2
 some don't care about fairness, they just want to be put on a pedestal and given a trophy
  • 6 3
 There is no such thing as Trans Gender. There is only male and female. Stop it already.
  • 1 0
 I still feel like the only people that get hurt in this whole situation is women and transgender folks themselves. I don't know what the answer is but this is clearly a problem that needs addressing.
  • 4 0
 I just came here to read the "below threshold" comments...
  • 1 0
 UCI what are you going to do when your top female racers like Kate Courtney and Yolanda Neff start loosing races to Transgender's?
Do something more to protect womans cycling!
  • 1 0
 The men's Open category is a good idea for Men who think they are women but unfortunately, I believe, they are going to say its discrimination. We all know it's woman whom are being discriminated against.
  • 5 2
 What about if your a female with high testosterone?
  • 8 0
 well, they're not transgender, so this doesn't apply to them.
  • 5 6
 @bartonw: I dont think that is quite fair then. I think women with high testosterone should also be included.
If high testosterone is what gives them the edge then I dont think its fair to included women with higher levels than most other women.
  • 1 1
 @bartonw: No, but they might have to compete against one,
  • 1 2
 What testosterone level does a born-woman have for it to be considered relatively high? To be honest for this discussion to make any sense I think it would be interesting to compare the average testosterone level of born-women competing at the top level of this sport to that of the average of a women worldwide. If this average (of the top performing women) is already relatively high then that should/would be the reference to compare transgender women to. If the aforementioned average isn't higher then apparently testosterone level isn't relevant in this sport so it wouldn't make sense to place a limit on it for transgender women.
  • 2 2
 @vinay: Did you not read about that Olympic female runner which tested with extremely high levels? Her competition wanted her banned because of this and that she was winning everything. But they kept her I think. If your gona ban trans women with high testosterone. Ban birth born women with the same. I know it gets messy and complicated and its a wildcard but the fair way would be a weight class like the UFC. But being built doesn't make you go faster as the likes of Brosnan and Heart proves. Its hard to please everyone but I am a trans right activist and proud gender queer. In fact queer league with testosterone / weight decisions is the only fair logical option. Gender creates too many issues. f*ck the patriarchy.
  • 6 0
 Caster Semenya was born XY, but is likely intersex or has hyperandrogenism. Her case differs from trans athletes which isn't my place to get into. We have no reason to delve Semenya's personal anatomy, but the science of it was that she was born XY. Now, she was raised her entire life and a female. When she was born doctors and nurses likely looked at her and said "yep, that's a girl." Her parents checked "female" on every birth document and medical record after. Could you imagine telling a little girl she can't run or play soccer with other girls because she was born with chromosomal abnormality? Imagine doing that to a girl hitting puberty? In the locker room she looks at herself and all the other girls and sees nothing different, aside from the fact that she's taller and more muscular.

Do we make that little girl run events by herself? At what point do we say "whoa whoa whoa, you're too good, we need to check your testosterone levels." and how do you break it to a now woman "oh wait, turns out your intersex and you cant compete unless you take these testosterone blockers. If you don't, you can't run or play this thing you love."

It's essentially handicapping a perfectly healthy individual. If we're going to set testosterone limits, maybe we should do it for men too. Maybe we need weight minimum and maximums, or height restrictions. While we're at it, I'd like it if everyone could carry around an extra 100lbs so I'll have a fighting chance in WCXC.
  • 2 3
 Testosterone is not the main topic. Being transgender is.@drmantistobogganmd:
  • 3 0
 @PHeller: could you imagine telling someone who identifys as female she has to race with boys? Same difference
  • 1 0
 @drmantistobogganmd: Huh? All women since the beginning of time have had different levels of testosterone, within a range, and often in an athletic discipline the ones with naturally higher testosterone levels have an advantage - they didn't ask for it, and it was given to them by their genetics. Why do you think taking exogenous testosterone is so effective for female weightlifters? And why it's banned. But that's just the way professional level sport goes - the more you look at elite level sport, you see it's a battle between those who won the genetic lottery at birth. Those who are naturally short don't tend to make it as a professional basketball players, for example. But you can't start enforcing a "level playing" field or a cap on natural testosterone levels for non trans people.
  • 1 0
 @bartonw: I think the point is if your going to ban trans with high testosterone then why not women with the same levels?
  • 4 5
 People! It's not that simple! Here are a good article and TED talk disclosing the complexity of sex (not to mention gender identity). Being intersex (which is different than transgender is more common than having red hair.

www.scientificamerican.com/article/beyond-xx-and-xy-the-extraordinary-complexity-of-sex-determination

www.youtube.com/watch?v=stUl_OapUso
  • 8 1
 Intersex conditions have nothing to do with biologically normal male transitioning to female. While I personally find intersex conditions interesting and have tremendous compassion for these people, it's not relevant.
  • 2 1
 @Adamrideshisbike: This is why I noted (not to mention gender identity) in my post. I think it does matter because the UCI is trying to define gender identity within the constraints of sex. I also wonder what happens when an athlete has AIS or other types of being intersex. What does the UCI do then? Do they even care?
  • 3 0
 @furiousstyles: It's an interesting question.

The runner Caster Semenya has an intersex condition. You can look up what rules she has to follow, imposed by the Olympic committee. The UCI, in my understanding, takes the lead from them.

apnews.com/543c78d943144874a661f31e88c1f8e6
  • 3 0
 are you really posting a TED talk from a person that describes themselves as an intersex activist mermaid??

here watch this and educate yourself.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzg9QtQelR8

it's from an actual scientist not an activist or twitter personality.
  • 2 0
 Funny thing is these trans people cant even win against most of the WOMEN racers.
  • 3 0
 I don't like this one bit. Female athletes are getting screwed
  • 1 0
 That's a damn shame for woman's cycling. They should now allow real woman the opportunity to dope to level the playing field a little bit!!
  • 5 3
 Over 100 comments on a Santa Cruz e bike and zero about this. Huh?
  • 15 2
 pinkbike are probably deleting most of the comments lol.
  • 5 0
 it's up for 15min
  • 2 2
 @tobiusmaximum: no probably aboot it, they're deleting jokes
  • 9 7
 Ahh, so nice, sooo niiice. Eat it, and swallow it, modern society.
  • 5 2
 Sorry ladies Frown
  • 2 0
 UCI fails again. You didn't go far enough and we both know it.
  • 1 0
 whole lotta armchair trans folk up in here...holy shit you'd think pinkbike was chock full of human rights scholars
  • 1 0
 The right to participate in elite sport regardless of biology is actually not a human right (yet). Still progress to be made.
  • 2 0
 @Adamrideshisbike: Regardless of biology? How can you not regard biology in sports?
  • 1 0
 @JWP: it was a bad attempt at sarcasm
  • 2 0
 Where did Kate confirm she wasn't going to be racing?
  • 1 0
 Until they fix this mess, no one will look at bike racing as a serious sport
  • 2 0
 Just make the "Mens" category into "Open" and problem solved.
  • 2 0
 Legitamizing cheaters. Go home UCI you're drunk....
  • 3 2
 little boys grow up to be men. and little girls grow up to women. anything else is delusional.
  • 2 0
 Here for the comments.
  • 1 1
 if you don't have gonads you can ride the woman's category would solve the problem
  • 2 0
 It’s just gross.
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