Tesla's Battery Day on Tuesday was one of the most highly anticipated moments of the tech calendar, and Elon Musk used it to lay out his vision for more sustainable technologies, in-house battery production and, most interestingly, huge advances in battery technology.
In front of an audience sitting in Tesla cars and hundreds of thousands watching online, Musk announced that new battery technologies that would mean his electric vehicles will be more powerful, longer lasting, and less expensive. What this boils down to is Tesla being able to sell a full electric car for $25,000 USD within 3 years.
It's impressive stuff, but will we ever see this technology in eMTBs, and what will it mean for their development? First, let's take a look at the batteries that we use now.
What is inside an eMTB battery?At the moment most eMTB batteries are 18650 Lithium-ion (Li-ion). Li-ion batteries were first developed in 1985 and they have been the main driving force behind electric vehicle development as they are rechargeable and you can get a lot of power from them without them taking up too much space.
The 18650 part refers to the cells within the battery pack. Each battery is packed full of individual cells that measure 18mm x 65mm, roughly the size of your finger. These are welded together in packs that are connected in parallel. If you take off the plastic shell, it basically it looks a bit like a bunch of AA batteries all joined together.
What goes on inside the battery isn't that important, but there is one important number with batteries - watt-hours. This, like you might expect, is a measure how many watts can be delivered in an hour. So for example, a 250 watt-hour battery could drive a 250 watt motor on full power for one hour while a 500 watt-hour battery could drive it for 2. Most e-bike batteries sit between 300 and 550 watt-hours. The golden bullet with batteries is getting as many watt-hours as possible, but if you just keep adding cells you'll start adding weight and volume.
Tesla doesn't currently use 18650 cells, though; it now uses the 21700 standard with cells measuring 21mm by 70mm. Tesla developed this cell with Panasonic in 2017 and its larger volume means it can be packed with more anodes and cathodes so can hold more energy. Tesla also claims it has a longer lifespan as it has to be charged less.
We have recently started to see these cells come into eMTBs with
Specialized's Turbo Levo Kenevo being the one we have covered the most on Pinkbike. This bike has a massive 700Wh battery, making it one of the biggest you can get on an eMTB today.
Tesla hasn't stopped 21700 though, and its announcement on Tuesday is the next evolution of its cell technology
How is Tesla's New Battery Different?The new Tesla battery has gone up in size again, this time far more significantly to 4680 or 46mm x 80mm. However, the real innovation comes from what's inside the can. Both 18650 and 21700 standard cells use 2 tabs connected to thin bits of copper and aluminum foil to connect the workings of the battery to the outside world. Not only are these tabs complicated to manufacture but they also take up space inside the battery and reduce efficiency as the current must travel the full length of the electrode to reach each tab.
Tesla's new design gets rid of these tabs and instead uses a "shingled spiral" design to collect the current which reduces internal resistance, reduces cost and simplifies manufacturing. Musk said: “The distance the electron has to travel is much less. So you actually have a shorter path length in a large, tabless cell, then you have in a smaller cell with tabs. So even though the cell is bigger, it actually has a better power-to-weight ratio.”
According to Drew Baglino, the senior vice president of powertrain and engineering at Tesla, the innovations boost the energy by five times, the power by six times, and the range of a car using these batteries by 16 percent. It's worth saying we don't know what the baseline for these numbers are as no exact figures are given but we assume its in relation to the 21700.
Will we ever see this on eMTBs?The advantages for eMTBs of a more powerful battery are clear. You can either deliver the same power in a smaller, lighter package, therefore making the bike handle and look more like a traditional mountain bike, or you can keep the battery the same size and boost the range of the bike.
As impressive as Musk's claims were, there was one problem. While the cells are apparently currently in testing, a physical one wasn't shown and it will apparently be another three years before the technology is released. Don't expect to see eMTBs using them straight away either. It took roughly 2 years for the 21700 tech to trickle down from Tesla Model 3 cars to the Specialized Kenevo, so you can probably expect tabless batteries to be the same, if it even happens at all.
There are also reasons that bike manufacturers are currently satisfied with the 18650 system and don't see any reason to change. There is still plenty of innovation in this size of cell with Bosch unveiling its 625Wh Powertube battery last year, offering a huge range despite the smaller cell size. The internals of these cells are still being perfected too with engineers experimenting with different cathode and anode materials to boost capacity.
One of the other big problems of increasing the volume of a cell is that it makes it harder for heat to escape. If a battery gets too hot it has to operate at reduced power or risk damaging itself permanently. E-MTBs are often out in the sun all day so the better heat management of an 18650 cell could lead to better performance over a longer period of time.
Finally, as with all things, cost will surely be a factor. 18650 cells are well proven technology, have now been refined for cycling applications and are widely produced by a number of competing brands. New technology is rarely cheap, especially in its infancy and while Musk is targeting a $25,000 USD electric car, we doubt he will let that competitive advantage go easily.
So, will eMTB batteries get smaller, lighter, cheaper and more powerful? Almost certainly. Will that be because of Elon Musk? Probably not for a while at least.
Summary: Electric cars are worse for the environment, up-front (although the entire supply chain has a long way to go to become as efficient as the conventional car supply chain), but ends up being much more environmentally friendly over the long term.
1) As of energy production: Look at France for instance. 90percent of energy is zero emission (nuclear + renuables)...so it's certainly possible to have clean energy.
Not to mention Norway: almost 100% renuable
2) battery production is a problem, but still it does less harm than a comparable system run with a combustion engine, And also, crucially in this case many people opt for an E-bike rather than car for commuting, which makes a huge difference in energy consumption.
3) Even if you absolutely ignore the environment, evrything electric is good in general, especially in Europe. We don't want to be feeding eastern sheikhs with our hard earned money, or be dependent on Russia with all resources. (Almost all oil and naural gas is imported to Europe from these regions). Better to invest in our own sources, be as independent as possible and keep the money here. (This is actually why a whole lot of people are scared by the electric revolution)
However, emtb is a tiny tiny segment of ebikes as a whole.
You have to all see outside that.
One of my colleagues has just bought an e-town bike to ride to work on. Shock horror it has to be plugged in at home using fossil fuel. Until you consider he was driving to work in a Ford Ranger. How many more countless examples of that are there? On the racks of tourists and campervans entering my county, I saw a massive increase in ehybrids this year but less tow-cars.
We need to get our heads out of our arses when we think about ebikes. Ebikes are getting people on bikes that would otherwise drive. Its almost nothing to do with whether you can or can not ride them on your trails. Thats just a minor side point at best.
In my post, I was refering to HEV. Nickel–metal hydride batteries used in modern HEV (which hydride contains REEs) are very demanding in terms of REEs.
Most important is to avoid the spreading of the Dunning-Kruger syndrome on Pinkbike, but I think it’s already too late…
Farmers. Perfect for moving machinery from paddock to paddock on your own, and you can easily lift them onto the back of a ute.
Ironically... Expanded Nuclear power production would make all electrically powered items more environmentally friendly based on the long term.
Both are bad, but I'll take localized mining pollution over atmospheric warming.
They need a material who is strong enough to withstand the neutrons permanent blast. The reactor could run with one charge 100 years.
40% was regenerative energy and 38% coal, 14% nuclear and only 7% gas. Last report from 2019.
All that to say when comparing energy alternatives, ecological side effects, human quality of life, and the embodied energy of the supporting infrastructure needs to be considered.
@unrooted's pessimism is warranted IMHO. Economies need energy to grow, capitalism demands maximum growth with minimum investment, and even though the high eROI stuff is tapped out, the cheapest energy is still fossil/net positive CO2/deleterious in other ways. These problems need to be attacked AGGRESSIVELY at the level of national utilities and major industry for humans to have a chance of long-term habitability on earth with a high quality of life, and taking North America for example, it's just not.
youtu.be/ZmNjLHRAP2U
www.bbc.com/future/article/20150402-the-worst-place-on-earth
www.specialized.com/us/en/s-works-turbo-levo-sl-founders-edition/p/187101?color=&searchText=96820-0102
The mountain bike industry needs to pull its head out of its own ass.
Thanks,
A concerned N+1 guy who likes his marriage
True story.
There's definitely a method to his statements, but I'll believe a $25K car when Tesla sells the $35K one promised years ago...
And as for the issue of timelines for new products in the electric car sector, Tesla is certainly kicking the shoes off of other makers. These concepts are a big change for the battery industry and it'll be great to see that cost/energy/power benefit fall into the smaller vehicle sector in the next few years.
Nikola tried to claim they had tech to beat Tesla and the SEC put a quick stop to that. Sure, the market will catch up. Musk himself said that their lead isn’t sustainable. But it’s many years away. Until then, I’m not selling any of my stock in the T.
That being said, I do commend Tesla on bringing some innovative ideas to the market and I hope better battery tech trickles down to make reasonably priced e-mtbs
This is the situation that the whole industry is in right now. And it doesn’t help that there is a mega arms race among smaller upstarts like Rivian, Workhorse, or Hyllion that are about to put a serious hurt on just about every aspect of the auto industry from small cars, like Tesla thru to the Hyllion’s industrial trucks. Pretty much every brand you now think of as an auto leader has been caught on the back foot it will be very difficult for them to maintain market share in the next 5 years.
Tesla is only working at warp speed in their own bubble because they are drastically ramping up production etc. VW Produced 11,000,000 vehicles in 2019 Tesla produced 367,500... it will take a long time to catch up! But in reality Tesla is noted for tech but there have been well publicized quality issues and they do tap the same supply chains for many parts (gear selector is straight Mercedes). The other automakers will have a challenge to catch up, but like you said they have brand loyalty already.
In any case - I like Tesla, but not a fan fanboy. Tesla has to keep being "revolutionary" to justify it's "Tech" company market Cap which is unjustified by revenue, or it will eventually become just another very large automaker!
Please don't reward Tesla's marketing department by repeating the 5X or 6X claim. 16% (aka 1.16X) is the real actual improvement, and that is quite significant in it's own right.
I personally think it’s cool that my bike is gonna get some trickle down from that eventually. I like the idea of a lighter Ebike with the same power.
Use your best battery people (your own body) as much as you can and leave ebikes for those that has disabilities or suffer from older age!
This dishing out to the individual to be a perfect human being is lame man, when are we collectively going to point the finger at big oil, plastic producers and policy makers our own individual efforts are great for tit for tat speach chat but by the time you've finished reading this then my ebike will be charged and I'm getting out my bike rack
I'm not saying oil companies aren't a big part of the problem, but shifting the blame to solely them gives individuals an excuse to act irresponsibly
'In any significant amount of scenarios'
Most mtb's aren't being shuttled.
One of his students has been investigating solid state batteries - they are the future. Cheaper, more efficient and with more capacity. - that is the future. Surprised mr musk has not been pushing this tech because it would kill the petrol engine dead.
www.idtechex.com/en/research-report/solid-state-and-polymer-batteries-2019-2029-technology-patents-forecasts/641
We never talk about extraction and purification of petrol before you buy it at the pump. Oil spills risks, refining operation destruct our environment from long time ago. It's a huge impact before we burn it into our cars with only 25 percent yield and we very often minimize it in order to stay focus on petrol. Please, have a look on Alberta extraction of bithuminous sand. Just 1/3 of the world consumption and try to not go forward on another energy (not if generated by fossile ressources of course).
Batteries are just starting their evolution. We definitely cannot compare 100 years of petrol industry with only 10-15 using Li-ion energy. Batteries are not perfect and I say big up to Elon Musk trying to move forward and make it better year after year. Cobalt, Lithium and providing rare hearth are problems but we can fit with R&D and government helps. Do we don't try anything to keep better this planet? I am one of those who want to stop fossile use in order to save a bit more our common atmosphere.
For sure, in parallel we have to recycle, reduce our consumption and try not to be so sensitive to stupid marketing that always want we buy useless things.
For me, it's very difficult for bikes :/
One minor quibble with the wording in this sentence: "[Watt-hours] is a measure [of] how many watts can be delivered in an hour". It would be more clear to word this as "[Watt-hours] is a measure of how many watts can be maintained for an hour". A watt isn't some discrete quantity (like electrons or Amazon packages) you need to get to a destination; it's a level of power you need to *maintain* over that time period.
Anyway, quibbles aside, I found this a useful primer, thanks.
What happens to this vehicles, is that normally it has a second life with the 2nd, 3rd or even 4th owner or more, depending of how long owners keep the same vehicle.
After this "second life", it's just an old fart, that will be bitten to deadth from it's (ab)users. In this period maintenance is more a replace after fail (and only if it's not that expensive).
This type of (ab)use and maintence will throw much of this vehicles to the trash/recycling.
And here starts the real problem with today's vehicles.
Some materials are hard to recycle, and some are cheaper to harvest than recycle.
What happen in the last 30 years, is that this cycle was shorten, and people rotate much more vehicles (and Things).
Long were the days, where our grandfather stooked with the same car, year after year...decade after decade, and some are still in grandsons garage to be refurbished.
All this problem is even bigger if this lifestyle is spread to countries with large population.
I'm not saying to restrict access, but I think we need to rethink our ways and behave.
If all Americans and Europeans reduce by 3%/year the electrical bill/gas bill, could you imagine the global impact (and it's only 3%, which in reallity is nothing!)
I'm forward baby steps towards big changes, and radicalization is just a way to create separation and non-believrs among all.
Regarding batteries, too much must be done, otherwise Hidrogen will take it over, and in a few years it will happen what occurr with the first cars when Petrol started to be using.
In 2 to 3 years the goal should be to release a batterie with the power to weight equal to gasoline.
The photo of the battery cell captioned "Tesla and Panasonic's 21700 cell was huge news when it was announced in 2017." Is an 18650, NOT a 2170. (Also the URL on the cell is teslamotors.com/detroit2015. Why would that be on a cell developed in 2017?!)
"Tesla doesn't currently use 18650"
Tesla DO still use 18650 cells.
Stick to bikes, stop using Tesla news as clickbait, you clearly know nothing about it.
www.indepthnews.net/index.php/opinion/3735-we-will-coup-whoever-we-want-elon-musk-and-the-overthrow-of-democracy-in-bolivia
NORTHAMPTON, Massachusetts (IDN) – On July 24, 2020, Tesla’s Elon Musk wrote on Twitter that a second U.S. “government stimulus package is not in the best interests of the people.” Someone responded to Musk soon after, “You know what wasn’t in the best interest of people? The U.S. government organizing a coup against Evo Morales in Bolivia so you could obtain the lithium there.” Musk then wrote: “We will coup whoever we want! Deal with it.”
Musk refers here to the coup against President Evo Morales Ayma, who was removed illegally from his office in November 2019. Morales had just won an election for a term that was to have begun in January 2020. Even if there was a challenge against that election, Morales’ term should rightfully have continued through November and December of 2019. Instead, the Bolivian military, at the behest of Bolivia’s far right and the United States government, threatened Morales; Morales went into exile in Mexico and is now in Argentina.
At that time, the “evidence” of fraud was offered by the far right and by a “preliminary report” by the Organization of American States; only after Morales was removed from office was there grudging acknowledgment by the liberal media that there was in fact no evidence of fraud. It was too late for Bolivia, which has been condemned to a dangerous government that has suspended democracy in the country.
Lithium Coup
Over his 14 years in office, Morales fought to use the wealth of Bolivia for the Bolivian people, who saw—after centuries of oppression—remarkable advances in their basic needs. Literacy rates rose and hunger rates dropped. The use of Bolivia’s wealth to advance the interests of the people rather than North American multinational corporations was an abomination to the U.S. embassy in La Paz, which had egged on the worst elements of the military and the far right to overthrow the government. This is just what happened in November 2019.
Musk’s admission, however intemperate, is at least honest. His company Tesla has long wanted access at a low price to the large lithium deposits in Bolivia; lithium is a key ingredient for batteries. Earlier this year, Musk and his company revealed that they wanted to build a Tesla factory in Brazil, which would be supplied by lithium from Bolivia; when we wrote about that we called our report “Elon Musk Is Acting Like a Neo-Conquistador for South America’s Lithium.” Everything we wrote there is condensed in his new tweet: the arrogance toward the political life of other countries, and the greed toward resources that people like Musk think are their entitlement.
Musk went on to delete his tweet. He then said, “we get our lithium from Australia”; this will not settle the issue, since eyebrows are being raised in Australia regarding the environmental damage from lithium mining.
Just sayin'
Learn more from our press release.
revonte.com/company/press/revonte-akku-the-most-flexible-e-bike-battery
www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1TRRiLOw0Q
www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqOJ0xpGl68
www.pinkbike.com/news/video-new-ubisoft-video-game-lets-you-ride-red-bull-rampage.html
I’d like a Ludacris mode my Levo 700D
real life: 6% better
(Eff you, I’m eating)
Nikola earned their current infamy.
Tesla has been at work for nearly 10 years trying to solve real issues and now that they are finally building factories and bringing their product to mass market, they have been rewarded for it. Hardly a short term strategy.
You can fight it all you want but every major auto manufacturer has commuted large chunks of its Future earnings to EV development and whole governments (California as of now) have passed laws prohibiting the sales of new ICE vehicles In the future. Tesla is many years ahead of the the game with proprietary tech. Sure they may come down later when the rest of the world catches up but that won’t be very several years.
You and I will never be able to fully appreciate it that type of innovation until things start to change. Once this gets up to full scale, prices will start to fall dramatically around the entire industry. Hopefully that happens just in time for another big improvement. And then we go thru this cycle all over again.
Tesla made a conscious choice to radically improve the manufacturing process of an existing technology rather than bring a whole new venture to market.
You don’t seriously think that’s the best possible battery system that will ever be made do you?
*Putting your ebike spins on normal bike Strava is pretty lame though
get a Toyota, more reliable and will go farther
Without brands like this, we will be riding Sram/Shimano forever. We need someone like Tesla in bike industry!
I've always wanted a Brat
Buddy 1: "Hey man let's go riding after work today!"
Buddy 2: "Sorry bro, I didn't charge my ebike, it'll be too heavy to ride up"
Buddy 1: "Damn bro, that sucks I can't just plug it into my 12 volt car charger"
Buddy 2: "Yeah let's ride tomorrow if I remember to charge it tonight"
:P