High pivots were the talk of the town in Lourdes with new models from Cube, Commencal, Mondraker and more. But not every brand was so keen to jump on that latest trend, we took a lap round the pits to find out why.
Ruben Torenbeek, Managing Owner, Raaw
What are your overall thoughts on the high pivot trend and why didn't you use one on your new frame?
I think the reason we haven’t gone for a high pivot layout that needs an idler in the end is that you do it for one benefit, for the better axle path. That maybe gives it a bit better bump absorption but you push all of the decisions of the frame layout in one direction. The construction of the frame is one thing to start with, if you have a very high pivot, that means that everything naturally builds up very high into the frame so that’s one big challenge to make it work in terms of stiffness and keeping the weight in a reasonable window. But then also there are more ways to make a very capable rear end and I think with the layout we have we keep doors open to be able to tune all the other characteristics of the rear end.
I think a bit more specifically, I think the thing I personally don’t really like about a high pivot bike is the growth of the rear end when you get into the travel. It’s this thing that exponentially gets worse. If you have a big impact it grows and then you dive into it and your bike gets longer and it becomes harder to handle, and then it builds up. I think that is the main thing. Our end grows quite a bit, I don’t know the exact number on the downhill bike but on the Madonna it’s 20mm.
Because your bike is sort of a high, low pivot, right?
Right, before the high pivot hype came, we used to say that we have a relatively high pivot layout that comes with a bit more anti squat, a bit more pedal kickback and those are things you can discuss about whether you like it or not but our experience is that we like a bit higher anti squat values and the pedal kickback is manageable. It would be nicer to not have it but in the grand scheme it’s acceptable.
There are other variables that you think are more important?
Exactly, it’s also just there’s so many aspects. I often think in terms of construction because we need to make the frame, that’s one thing and then the other thing is how it rides. But also making an idler work well, and making it work long term, it’s not easy. And there’s the issue with drag, there’s quite a bit to it. If brands go that route, with a high pivot, there’s quite a lot of challenges and downsides for one upside that you might even achieve with other solutions.
Have you tested high pivots?
Not with Raaw but I’ve actually ridden the Ghost downhill bike in 2011ish. I actually worked for Ghost at that point, it was my first job so I’ve ridden that bike quite a lot. I’ve also ridden quite a lot on the Zerode that had a super high pivot. But that Ghost I knew very well. It’s kind of funny because it was a 26” bike and if you see it now it looks old school but it had a lot that is now being picked up by brands. I had that in my memory of how that rode and it was definitely a bike that you needed to be very active on, you needed to work it hard. In rough stuff it was a good bike but it wasn’t an easy bike to ride.
So for you high pivot is more like a tool, it achieves a certain thing well but compromises on others?
It’s always that balance of all characteristics of the bike. Like you said, you have tools in your toolbox and that’s how we explain the adjustments we have in the downhill frame. It’s all like little tools that you can use to change the characteristics of the bike. The four bar link that we use on the Jib, Madonna and downhill bike just seems to be the best baseline to start from. Actually we were talking a bit with Neko about his bike and ours and we have very similar general layouts with maybe different detail solutions and Neko is currently I think pushing it especially in terms of progression pretty high but aware he’s on the high side. I think him doing that project we weren’t aware of it but it’s a nice confirmation for us.
So, can we expect to see a high pivot from Raaw?
In production, no. We’re very convinced of the concept we have right now. Maybe we’ll do testing at some point but there’s nothing in the making or something. But then a high pivot is a term describing a high pivot but there’s so many variations of how you could do that layout and I actually think we'll see the pivot heights coming down a bit. The Commencal has come down from what they used to have, that Zerode for example, that sort of pivot height you don’t see that much. Even if we were going to learn some more about the high pivot with idler combination then there is so many ways to implement that.
Gee Atherton, Atherton Bikes
What are your general thoughts on the high pivot stuff?
I think the high pivot idea is a legit idea. I remember having meetings with the Commencal guys back when we were with those guys about the idea and they’ve developed it over such a long time and they’ve done it well and you can see how it is working for them. I think the goal is what the high pivot delivers and in certain riding styles it is going to help and it is going to add a better ride.
Is it something you’ve tested?
Yeah, it is. I think the whole high pivot thing is not necessarily the only way to achieve what a high pivot delivers. Something we’ve been working on with DW6 with Dave Weagle is how the linkage works to deliver a similar outcome and that’s something we’re gong to be developing in future.
Is it something that depends on the platform?
Yeah, I think so. It’s like anything, I think Commencal probably started the trend and did it well and I think there’s a lot of companies jumping on board and throwing a high pivot onto a bike and it doesn’t necessarily deliver the same outcome. It’s similar to the 29 wheel change, you can’t just slap a 29er onto any old frame and it works the way you want to. It’s like anything, if you want to do It well, it can work and if not, it’s not going to help.
This does feel similar to what happened with Trek and the 29er downhill bike, they'd been testing that for years.
And I think for these same companies it’s got to be a balance because you can’t ignore the trends if a certain trend comes along. It’s what people want, you can’t tell them no, that’s what they want so that’s what they’re going to find. The balance for them is not just throwing themselves into it, skipping long periods of testing to hit a target date. You have to go through that process of testing, developing, working with athletes over a long period of time so you know that, right, this is going on the bike and it’s as good as it can be.
So is it unlikely Atherton Bikes will be releasing a high pivot bike soon?
I think it’s unlikely we are going to slap on a high pivot system that you’re seeing a lot of companies jump to but I think what the high pivot delivers, the wheel travel the high pivot delivers, that’s something we’re going to be focussing on and working on how we can incorporate that into the Atherton bikes in a good way that doesn’t compromise any other part of it.
Lyle Hyslop, Mechanic, Santa Cruz Syndicate & Seb Kemp, Global Brand Director, Santa Cruz
What are your general thoughts on high pivot system and have you tested it?
Seb: We’ve tried a lot of competitors' bikes and we have a lot of fabrication abilities at our disposal as well, so we can validate a lot of things and we always have.
Is it a tool that a brand could use but not a be all and end all of downhill bike design going forward?
Lyle: It depends what you’re trying to achieve. I think a lot of people tend to just see a high pivot bike and that’s all they know about it. It’s kind of the same, especially with racing, if anybody goes well, and they’ve got one thing, could be a brand of brake, a disc size a suspension design, as soon as people start going well, everyone’s just like, “mullets are the best, full 29ers are the best”. I mean you remember what it was like here in 2017?
I remember even more what it was like in Fort William the same year when you had people machining out fork arches and stuffing bigger wheels into frames…
Lyle: …and here we are five years later there’s now mullets, there’s full 29er. So it’s what works with each individual rider. Early high pivots I think were quite an extreme of bike design and I think the more people do it, the more they refine it to bring it away from that extreme. I think what we do personally is what Seb says, cover all bases, try everything that we think is worth trying and come up with our own package that best serves the riders needs and all the different tracks that we ride.
Could you tune VPP to offer similar characteristics?
Seb: Well every suspension design has advantages and disadvantages and is very tunable and the high pivot or mid high pivot or low high pivot or whatever it is this week has got some advantages but there is also disadvantages and you’re trading off on things.
Lyle: And you don’t have to step away from having a VPP bike to have a high pivot VPP bike. The VPP is just the system, you can have a high virtual pivot point, medium, low, it depends on the ride feedback that you get and the characteristics that you want.
Have any Syndicate riders expressed that they want to go that way?
Seb: In the past, because you see a lot of competitors or their colleagues or their peers trying things and they’re like, “that’s the thing” but a racer is a system and sometimes they can transfix on one particular thing when actually it’s the system that needs to be worked on. So we spend a lot of time with all the guys suspension testing and tuning and tyre system is worked on...
Lyle: ... We’ve got a good relationship with the engineers at Santa Cruz so me and Greg went and caught up with the engineers in Santa Cruz and it wasn’t "do you want an X,Y,Z bike?" It was, "I like this bike but I want it to do this, this and this better". I know Greg personally is like, “I don’t care what anybody else is riding, I’m riding this, I want this to be better”.
So you’re more focussed on characteristics of a bike rather than what makes it do that particular thing?
Yeah, it’s a complete package, if you’ve ever played around on Linkage and you say, “I want my axle path to do this”, all of a sudden everything else is like, “oh no that doesn’t …” It’s a constant compromise and balance of all the attributes fit together in a big package.
Patrice Afflatet, Scott Downhill Factory Team Manager
What do you think of the current trend, will it sticks round?
Well, I think it’s something that you may want to put on your bike if you have to sort some problems and what to make benefit of that on the anti rise, anti squat, so that could be interesting in that area. But given our current set up and geometry, we have a very limited anti rise and anti squat so we don’t see the real benefit of doing the high pivot with the current geometry.
What did you learn when Brendan had his high pivot set up.
Well, we learned that! When Brendan was on the former platform we learned about the action it has on the rear and on the braking and the anti-squat; we took this into account when designing the current platform, so we don’t have it on the current platform.
Do you think there are advantages to that design?
As I say, we all try to have a bike that keeps rolling, that is having a good behaviour on travel, suspension and braking so that could help depending on your geometry, but you could also do that in other ways without having a high pivot so...
It’s a matter of balance of balance and compromise?
It’s always this. You have to find the best compromise that suits your requirement so yeah, it’s not mandatory to do a pulley and high pivot thing. There are quite a few other bikes that are not adding that.
For sure we are working on products, we are working on a future platform and we’ll see what we end up at, but it’s not mandatory for sure.
"We looked pivots and how they were created, by the, you know the, you know the thing."
Your irony, intentional or otherwise, is highly appreciated.
With all these high pivots, the very highest many say, we're going to need big bearings, great big bearings, maybe the greatest biglyist bearings in high pivot history. And I know bearings; well of course, I know a great many things, very knowledgeable guy, one of the knowledgeiabliest, and bearings are amongst them, amongst the many things I know a lot about.
This is certainly true for brands but as a consumer I have no issue ignoring trends. I will keep a bike until I worry that I can't find parts for it. Bikes go pedal, and I don't need to fork over thousands of dollars for small increases in performance. If I spent thousands of dollars on physio I would probably see better performance returns than if I spent it on a bike.
Unfortunately, the cycling market in general is kind of image driven, no matter if the concept being displayed is actually good for a particular rider or not. "Win on Sunday, sell on Monday" definitely applies, or even "Get printed/posted on Sunday, sell on Monday". And doubly so for "trendy" things that are easily noticeable: a high-pivot frame, a Santa Cruz frame (VPP is easy to spot), a Yeti frame (both turquoise and Switch), fat fork stanchions with a giant "3" and "8" or capital "ZEB" below them, titanium and/or oil-slick colors, Kashima on your fricking seatpost! Sure, most of these are great products and quite useful, but pretty sure many of them are sold more because they look like they do, as opposed to the actual utility provided to the rider.
True.
nsmb.com/media/images/Axle_Path_2022.original.jpg
I believe the comments quoted in this article was talking about people like you!
Yes, anything for the marketing department.
Watch the Peaty video of old V10 V new, sit down and sigh at how much you have spent
Im an average rider and for the bike park(black and double) with increased speed and just smashing and running into things i think the HP was good.
However for My local trails and just wanting to have fun, it was struggle street, i was more drained and felt like i was riding a bus, If i jumped into a berm and tried to rail it quickly i could feel the laziness of the bike, kinda felt like a tank slapper.
Conclusion for me: If you ride like Phil kmetz as an all-rounder, then youll get away with HP on every trail but even he now changes back to his sensor often.
HP on a DH Race bike i can see as an F1 thing compared to real road cars.
I sold both frames and dont regret it.
Would I buy anther? No.
do I recommend a HP? If you race DH bikes and like the idea, sure.
HP reminds me of the long reach trend, it has its place and thats usually only 5-10% of bikes when doing certain things.
Bruni in particular is always in the top positions (if not at the top) with his short, traditional bike....
if i had to choose, i would go with the demo...looks low and mean. But i'm sure the commencal is the fastest, they've managed to create something special. i'm sure yeti will come back with a 6 bar dh bike
They asked Santacruz so that takes care of that.
Think they did ok at the weekend...
High pivot was 2021, its mid pivot now because the same riders are going fast on their new bikes... Performance seems to be following the rider at WC level. Interesting.
Ramble time.... lol
If the very top riders were 1% faster than those outside the top 20 then a bike that is 1% slower would make a big difference. But the weekend didnt show that!
There was 5s covering the top 10 on a 3 minute track, that is a big margin of 3% and the top 20 8s back which is nearly 5%, 45th was 13s back or just under 8% back.
The top 5 were on:
1. Commencal - Mid pivot
2. Specialized
3. Specialized
4. Commencal - Mid pivot
5. Canyon
6. Cube
7. Trek - High Pivot
8. Santacruz
9. Commencal - High Pivot ( I think he was on the old bike)
10. Saracen
The results seem to suggest that High Pivot is not the golden egg, but the rider plays such a massive part.
There are faster bikes and slower bikes, from experience (I have done a lot of testing), the difference is significant if a bike is "not fast" and can move you down the results sheet, but.... if you are already 3% up, then losing 2% of that advantage at the very top of the sport does not make the biggest difference.
If we were to look at the riders in that top 10 then we all know that they are either up and coming or very well established fast boys.
What bike did Loic Bruni take to the overall in 2019 and 2021? What bike did Minnaar win world champs on at 39 years old?
High pivot has its merits, if its designed well, like any part of bike design really... But don't just point at numbers and say "number go up, good".
But someone would take any sentence and debate it.
I want them to toss in a big climb/sprint out of nowhere and watch all the high pivot people sprint their butts off without ripping a shoe off on the idler.
In the end there is not a single winning formula, but various ways to achieve a desired behaviour / charecteristics.
A multi-link setup like DW6 (or Commencal's 6-bar) could provide an initial rearward path that then goes vertical to minimize the potentially unsettling feeling of rear center growing too fast, for example. The options are numerous.
Remember, Gee said they were talking with Dave Weagle, so you're actually saying Dave sounds clueless, and that's just not true.
1. Weagle is a mad scientist of sorts, but he's actually quite brilliant when it comes to suspension, kinematics, weight bias, rider position, axle path, leverage ratio, brake input and so many other aspects of suspension design that your skull hurts if you've ever read any of his detailed explanations of how they all tie together.
It's something of a shame that he had exited the forums and comments section of websites. The details he gives the common man on what really and truly goes into designing a DW bike helped me understand dynamics I never knew existed.
Logic is prerequisite to comprehension of extensive knowledge, a wise bird once told me.
Literally everybody who has done serious testing on this matter, says that mullet setups don't make any sense if you are over 6ft tall. The conclusions range from "there's no benefit to running a mullet" to "a mullet setup is overall worse and slower than a 29er".
You're so good at this pretend world of the internet.
Notice that Gee did not say a single f*cking word about idlers or eliminating them, which makes it all the more confusing that you’re prattling on about idlers specifically. He is talking about generating a rearward path in a different way, but if he chooses to do so he will almost certainly use an idler or require some other method of managing chain growth. Those of us paying attention can think of a new alternative method for managing this in bike design that was revealed just last week.
If you don’t know a god-damned thing about a subject then just shut up and read the comments.
That's what the smaller rear wheel does. No one debates that longer skis are faster. They are. Still gotta make 'em turn and if you mess up and are off line...you STILL gotta make 'em turn.
You know what racers also aren't? Mechanical engineers. I do personally know engineers and testers of two brands who afte doing their own testing, called bullshit on the mullet fad and made the decision not to offer any of their bikes as mullets. And it's not just those two brands, but quite a few actually.
I think the fact that a decent number of racers tried full 29 and then went to mullet shows that one size does not fit all. So a couple brands ditched their mullets, whatever. A bunch of other brands added mullets after their racers (and testers I'm assuming) said they were more comfortable on the smaller rear. It goes both ways, as with everything.
Many smaller riders appreciate the way a 29" wheel rolls on the front, but find themselves getting buzzed by the rear tyre. For them mullets work.
Why do some people seem to get so bothered by mullets, but not other things in the industry that could be called out as "fads" like high pivots or plus tyres? Personally I'm happy with my bikes that I regularly ride (both 29" which work for me at 6'2") and I couldn't give a damn what others choose to buy/ride.
I have a 27.5 bike that's stored abroad waiting for my next trip. I'm planning on taking a 29" fork and front wheel with me to see if I prefer it. Maybe I will, maybe I won't. If I do then hopefully I'll be able to ignore anyone who calls me a sucker who's fallen for an industry scam if they see me riding something they have difficulty tolerating.
Good for those morons! Guess their balls clear the saddle off the back on all the steep trails & never get sucked into the swingarm by their crotch when stuff gets hairy. So freaking proud of those arrogant Mothers. Really I am. Now if you want to go right over here and press the "I don't care" button -----> ╭∩╮(-_-)╭∩╮
You obviously know everything there is to know already so why debate. Just sit down. Swallow that load of mechanical engineering hotness you love so much and smile knowing you're superior to the entire World Cup circuit in every way.
GT did something very similar years ago and it had a gear box too.
www.bikeradar.com/news/gt-goes-old-school-with-original-suspension-bikes/?image=3&type=gallery&gallery=1
They both theoretically partially take the brake out of the driveline & suspension forces. But they don't really.
in my neck of the woods and riding this is a no go for me
But hey, "market demand" kept us on lousy 71/73 geometry, long stems, etc. until a handful of BC riders demanded bikes that rode well instead of looking a certain way. If we end up plagued with poorly performing high pivot downcountry bikes it's because the "market" of mountain bike buyers can be kinda dumb.
If we're talking about square edge bump absorption, low pedal kickback, and stable wheelbase at compression, I'm afraid the high pivot thing is the only way to achieve what a high pivot delivers.
I only had to ride a Druid for a month to draw the same conclusion. High pivot = Plow
If you can wrap your head around how a high pivot makes a bike ride, then it's easier to decide a high pivot is for you.
I liken the high pivot suspension feel to walking in sand: Sand is soft and cushy, but try a dynamic move and it will be muted.
Also, it's a dumb question.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOoeGOL1t1E
Ain’t gonna lie, i’d love to experiment with a druid to see what all the fuss is about