Pinkbike Poll: Do You Care If Your Frame Comes From a Catalogue?
Open model catalogue frames are no secret. While most bikes from major manufacturers aren't made in house, a catalogue frame is different from other bikes in that the manufacturer isn't supplying a frame exclusively to a brand. It's "open" and anyone is free to buy them, brand them, and sell them (sometimes even with a warranty). Usually they're priced much lower than brands who are doing their own R&D, testing, or manufacturing. The business model exists for aluminum and carbon components too; bars, stems, rims - you name it. Open models and white-labeling are everywhere, even the first Grim Donut was a modified open model.
Among the big companies, open model frames are uncommon now, but many major bike brands have historically done some open models—especially in smaller markets or to react quickly to new categories. Think "oh man, fat bikes are blowing up this year, our dealers need us to deliver a fat bike quickly!"
The Quest Karst
Agogo (Qtour) Bike Company FM-M06 open model
Someone in the comments was asking about the Quest Cycles Karst recently, and we recognized it as the Agogo FM-M06 frame we saw in Taipei back in 2018. It's a 130mm trail bike with pretty progressive geometry for an open model, especially by 2018 standards.
Nothing an angleset can't fix.
There are plenty of companies branding up, selling, and doing after-sales support on bikes like these. Quest, Rythm, Sherpa, and Evolve, all look to be shopping from the same catalogue pages, but does that mean should be scoffed at or aren't decent value?
The frame that Evolve Bikes uses for its Alpha model is also found under other names.
On the flip side, many bike brands will point to more control over design, insight into quality, immediate intervention to problems, and the ability to be progressive with their bikes as reasons they don't do open models. Some are even investing in their own carbon factories. Going a step further, brands such as Antidote, Hope Tech, Atherton Bikes, We Are One Composites, and Guerilla Gravity, and more have even built their manufacturing locally.
How do you feel about open model frames? Would you ride one?
How do you think the catalogue bikes from Quest, Evolve, Sherpa, etc. stack up against major bike manufacturers?
Are they strong enough? Is the geometry good?
If catalogue frames were on par with the latest major bike brands' offerings but significantly cheaper, would you buy one?
How much does the brand's marketing, production, and connection to the mountain bike world mean to you?
Author Info:
Member since Mar 16, 2001
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I'm pretty sure that most mountain bikes use post mount brakes, threaded bottom brackets, every fork can be installed, boost spacing is easy to live with. are there any standards I've missed?
I did drop a name and I got my post deleted! Not the first time..
Rhymes with Fanta Fruze.
Another comment on my bike- I got a killer deal on it from my favorite big on-line store. Like, a few hundred bucks more than a frame alone! Just to find out the rear linkage didn’t line up. Fixed with a shim, but did I get a “second” frame? One that wouldn’t make it from the big bike name showroom? I’ll never know..
Maybe the thirds make it into a catalog!
I bought a new "downcountry" bike in 2021. (I hate that term)
I always thought a CC bike was a better fit for me but was put off by 100mm travel and the relatively steep head angle.
Slack with 120mm travel wasn't widely available before then.
That’s how it should be!
I’m an ex motorcycle racer and have always spent more time setting up bikes than riding! Though I say they’re one in the same..
I’m looking for some magical feeling when I demo a bike. I know it when i feel it.
Who knows, maybe that old school magic I seek is in a catalog frame! But I need to test ride before I buy.
Competitive Cyclist
They held the bike for me when the simply didn’t have to. It was the last one.
There are many bikes out there from the ‘catalogue’. One I am sure is so would be the Calibre Bossnut.
That particular bike has been selling 2nd hand more than the retail in recent times.
Personally I have not once even considered resale on mtbs though.
astroeng.com.tw/page/news/index.aspx?root=7
So you lose around +50% on *NEW* price, but at least someone will buy you back (or not...)
LOL! Way to go
*Eyes cheese grater suspiciously*
Unique! What a fantastic word!
“My fake carbon bars failed and now I’m paralyzed.”
“Those sound unique!”
www.pinkbike.com/news/mtb-on-a-budget-where-to-spend-and-where-to-save-on-bike-parts.html
www.pinkbike.com/news/mtb-on-a-budget-bike-parts-video-2020.html
www.pinkbike.com/news/mtb-on-a-budget-where-to-spend-and-where-to-save-on-mountain-bike-clothing-part-1.html
www.pinkbike.com/news/the-pinkbike-podcast-episode-105-the-3-bike-budget-challenge.html
www.pinkbike.com/news/the-pinkbike-podcast-episode-88-mountain-biking-on-the-cheap.html
When it comes to reviews, I ask the tech team to focus on brands and products that are available to most people. We also try to focus on brands that are pushing the boundaries. Catalogue frames are neither, so they usually go to the back of the line.
That said, we absolutely are guilty of some laziness here too. It's a lot easier to facilitate a review from a major manufacturer. We should definitely review a catalogue frame sometime. Anything in particular you'd like @mattbeer to test?
If you're actually going to go ahead test one of these things; and I honestly have absolutely no idea which one that should be. I would just do your normal test routine or include it in a field test. That said if you really want to go to extremes and make some video & article content out of it - do a full up manufacturing analysis & destructively test it. Buy a frameset, build it up, ride it, review it then have an expert in manufacturing do an analysis of it. Weigh it, do some precision measurements of the interfaces and see what the quality is actually like in comparison to a big brand frame. Have someone with composites expertise section the frame (cut it up into pieces to inspect the laminate quality in multiple areas) and look at the build quality vs a big brand frameset. There are a few people on youtube who do an ok job of this on warrantied scrap road & mtb CFRP framesets already. Probably wouldn't be that difficult to find an industry person willing to weigh in on the kinematics as well.
It might just be my personal background here, but for me the cheap composite bicycle parts is such an interesting "behind the curtain" dynamic in the bicycle industry. We all know most of the brands build product out of contract composite manufacturing facilities in SE Asia. So you can make equally reasonable arguments that the cheaper no name products are nearly identical to high end bike products because they may be built in the same facility with the same materials, labor, and processes AND you can reasonably presume that the cheap no-name or alibaba stuff is dangerous junk made out of aged/expired/lower quality materials by less skilled labor to lower quality standards. Both make sense - we just don't know; that uncertainty is what drives a lot of people to just go with what they know, to go with what is *generally* proven product.
I think that's what would make a through review of one (or a few) of these bikes so interesting. Is it a pile of junk or an absolute screaming deal?
But, I like supporting brands that hire real engineers and push mountain biking in the right direction. Catalog bikes are rarely ever aesthetically pleasing, and open mold carbon tends to look "cheap".
But… Lapierre did take responsibility and recalled their frames. Not sure open-mold companies would do the same?
I don't have anything against catalogue frames, but I haven't really seen any I consider to be killer values.
And there are countless ODM products for carbon fiber frames. Xiamen, China is rich in high-quality carbon fiber wheels, while Shandong, Huizhou, and Shenzhen and Guangzhou are the source of high-quality carbon fiber frames. Chinese bicycle enthusiasts will look for high-quality ODM frames for assembly. They tend to be cheap, maybe $500-$800, and a good full-suspension bike with Fox Factory 34SC and Deore XT and a pair of DT240 carbon wheels is just $3000
My favourite was…
“Never miss your own day with 100% good fun ski club”.
I was inspired and have never missed my own day since.
We have the power (we spend the money) to determine where parts are made. You can’t complain about the supply issues and everything being made in Asia while riding a bike with every part made there. There are options
It's the same for Hope in the UK - buy one because you like British stuff, or to remove the environmental impact of shipping, but don't kid yourself that a company who have been making carbon bikes for 5 years do it as well as ones in Asia doing it for 20.
That said many of these brands take the initiative to ensure the manufacturing and QC are to their standards in Taiwan, which I doubt these open-mold companies are doing.
The fact that functionally they're no different doesn't make anything a "sham". The major brands steer the design of the catalogue bikes, enabling folks without heaps of cash to ride nicer bikes than 10 years ago. They drive progression.
Both need to exist for MTB to be more accessable to more people- which is the sport's biggest issue. Whomever wrote the question: poor form.
But they recently were selling the 'Vander' models that were a catalog frame they make for other brands.
Do you care that many, many parts of your car are shared between major manufacturers? Most of us aren't even aware of that, let alone in electronics.
Why should I care about shared design on a bicycle?
To your point about cars imagine how people would react to find out a lot of the components in a Mercedes and a KIA are the same, made in the same place, and were sold to each of those companies for the same price. Putting it back in bike terms Giant is the contract manufacture for Colnago.... which one has the higher resell value?
This is true for pretty much any industry. Those cheap throw away phones at walmart are made by the same company that makes every iphone and samsung phone, which is the company that makes most of the computer parts anyone uses besides the actual processor (foxconn).
Just lazy to think the rest of the brand's products are good due to this though. Scott might have prestige, but them using Polygon's factory (PT Insera) to fill out their entry level price-points doesn't mean that you get anything close to the ride experience of a Siskiu T8, Scott Ransom, Marin Alpine Trail, whatever.
My Will not Deal With list is mainly US companies with ‘premium’ offerings.
Alibaba every time.
As MTB geometry is now reaching maturity and has arguably been "solved", will catalogue frames' traditional weakness be eliminated and will they be poised to take a much bigger chunk of the market?
Which brands keep it real?
Vitus would prolly work just fine but I bet most of us who have been riding a long time won’t go there
I’m on a free frame replacement of a top brand because my 6yo frame had a failure.
..not a catalog bike
I’m ok with open mold d2c when it’s cheap enough to gamble. I’ve bought some frames from these manufacturers with good success. Rode them for a few years until the cracked and moved on.
I’m not ok with buying a product made in Asia for a few bucks then marked up 500% when the branding gets applied. Especially with anything less than lifetime warranty.
If I’m paying industry averages for stuff I’d prefer it’s manufactured a local as I can afford and it’s got a no hassle warranty like Reeb or Guerrilla Gravity.
Brands like Pivot, Specialized, Revel, Evil, etc lose me with frames that are not only astronomically expensive but still made overseas.
Also - no kinematic concerns with a hardtail/fatbike. Wouldn't buy a full sus.
... says the guy that paid through the nose for a Chromag hardtail.
The brain can rationalize, but the heart wants what it wants.
Lots of XC guys ride the XC frames off there and they love them.
There were a few issues; the press BB is somewhat out of spec and there is nothing inside the thin frame walls to dampen the noise.
My only gripe is that their long travel bikes aren't quite sized as big as their 936/909. When they come out with one, I will buy it too.
Resale values were great. I bought the road frame/fork for $750 shipped. Sold it 3 years later for $450.
However, I would never consider an open mould full suspension frame. They have NOT done their homework in the areas of kinematics, nor do they even have a recommendation on what type of tune / shock that the frame was designed around. Regardless of how inexpensive a full suspension frame is vs. a brand name, I will not touch them with a 10ft. pole.
However, I would not hesitate to buy another rigid frame / fork / wheelset / etc. If the geometries are what you're looking for, they offer incredible value. The only thing you're potentially giving up to big brand names is the layup. The open mould ones are pretty simplistic. So if you buy into the $5000-$6000 rigid road frames where layup / feel / optimized tube thickness is important to you...then you are not the intended customer of the catalogue frames.
www.lightcarbon.com/all-new-lightcarbon-trail-mtb-frame-lcfs958_p118.html
I was in my freshman year of materials engineering school in 2018 and spent a considerable amount of time getting a "first-article" size XL and tested multiple layups to failure (aka i cracked them). I sent a zillion emails with the factory with feedback on the layup/what was failing and we found something that worked. They were super helpful. Hopefully this new company has sorted out a better lower bushing system. I just used Teflon tape.
I qualified for Sea Otter pro slalom finals with this frame and Greg Minnaar looked at it and commented something like "nice bike". I podiumed a few local pro enduros and even got some UCI Pro XC point on it. Swapping between a 130mm and 160mm fork. Great value for money. ( Proof of the slalom finals. www.instagram.com/p/BwOEB0bAPTG/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link )
Mondraker started like this, until they had enough recognition and money and designers to start to design their own bikes.
Had a similar experience with Airwolf when I built my hardtail.
If you want to build your own bike, going direct makes a lot of sense. If you don't, brands like Quest and Evolve make a lot of sense. I just wish they'd be open about the fact they are selling catalog frames. Yes Quest, I'm looking at you!
"We are an Atlantic Canadian based bicycle company. All Quest bikes are built with Japanese Toray Carbon Fiber, paired with the world's best performing components. Quest Carbon Cycles are carefully assembled and tested in Atlantic Canada, where we ride all four seasons."
These are bicycle frame manufacturers, not some shed where they downloaded the plans and sell it.
Like I mentioned above, I ride a Polygon Siskiu. And Polygon makes bikes for a lot of other 'premium' brands. Why do you think the catalog frame would be inferior quality?
It doesn’t make sense to me to shop ignorantly then donate to make yourself feel better. It probably does more good to not donate to charities and spend your money supporting ethical business practices.
youtu.be/9g6deVCyNuo
5/7 would buy again. Some design tweaks I wish they'd make but it's a killer bike.
I'm surprised nobody mentioned this forum: chinertown.com/index.php?board=8.0
That's ^^^ where I lurked for a few months before buying Carbonda.
youtu.be/wiTHJqi-K-w
Also it's really hard justifying the price difference when you can buy the same frame yourself directly...
I just ask those companies to be clear about that advantage of buy an open mold frame from them.
tell us something like : yes this is an open mold frame but if you buy from us you'll have :
- better and faster customer services
- local inventory and/or faster shipping on replacement parts
- better warranty
To the author, I'd suggest the term 'Unbranded' used for the product, and the term 'Open' refer to design (ie open source)
What's compelling about this is how modern manufacturing techniques can allow potentially equal quality products with equal or potentially better performance, at a lower cost.
This raises questions on how this could disrupt/change markets, affect design, evolution of design, and evolution of mountain bike technology, evolution of the sport.
Personally I have an unbranded bike company in my area, and even with warranty and product support and lower prices with good specs, I still struggle to consider purchasing one. Maybe its ethical, or just uncertainty about the legitimacy of the product.
This must be why companies like Pinkbike avoid reviewing them, aside from obvious conflict w/ bike industry.
I will support guys like him - even at a premium - rather than some marketing bullshit & different decals on a generic frame from the Far East.
If I'm not mistaken, weren't some of Transitions first bikes from a catalog? I could be wrong though.
For carbon, the new factory in Belgium from Rein4ced is really interesting, as is Guerilla Gravity. for Carbon, using come clever thinking and sometimes robotics brings the price down, and with aluminum, the combination of CNC'ed parts along with welded tubing opens new doors (Nicolai, and again Reeb).
I am looking forward to what those brands can bring to the world of MTB.
That being said, I tend to fall for what a brand "is about" and how they support the common rider. Even if they'd use an open model.
Now that I got a "real" brand model (Ibis Ripmo AF) I have already experienced how Ibis communicates with the common rider. I think that's great and it is what gets me hooked on a brand.
Overall I wasn't blown away by the overall value. Waiting for a great discount on a brand name frame just made more sense. Maybe open mold frames are better now, but I'm not holding my breath.
I chose this open mold concept because the geometry really wasn't that far off from some of the current enduro designs out there and it comes with a very high spec, and a full lifetime warranty for the original buyer as well as replacement warranty for second owner.
Bike prices from larger brands have been growing at a rapid pace and is becoming almost unaffordable for alot of the population to get into somthing "decent".
I wanted to see what the ride value of a open design frame with high spec would be in comparison to bikes I've had in the recent past and have been very pleased with the result. For the spec I have I would have had to spend in between $2000 to $3000 more for a Carbon frame for one of these larger brands which I'm sure the value is there but just out of my comfortability to purchase. So I welcome the option to purchase somthing that in my opinion is very comparable.
I am in the mid range of an advanced rider and this bike has done everything the others could do in the 4 months ive had it riding every second day, and so far frame quality or integrity has not been a negative factor. Large gaps, drops, tech, raced enduro, so far this bike has been a riot.
I would absolutely recommend an open design frame with high spec in terms of value per dollar.
Cheers!
Oh, because we all like to 'support brands that give back' but probably don't give personally.
Thanks friend!
Now to be faire there is only so many bike designs that work well and offer a good weigth/durability ratio (el famoso "looks like a Session") so seeing many doppelgängers isn't overly surprising either.
A - Good?
B - ugly?
The design can happen anywhere. The production is a different story.
So much stuff you buy will be proudly stickered 'Designed'in USA/Canada/UK etc to try to add value. It doesn't mention production is China/Taiwan etc
I ride a Santa Cruz because that’s the bike that suits my style. They let me sprint out of the saddle with a compromise in compliance. I don’t want to loose that.
It's kinda like Ebikes, Haters hate untill they try them.
The 90s and their crap bikes are calling they want Matt back
When you want to move into the 2000's for bike related stuff.. you let us know.
Get over it ride what makes you happy, let others do the same.
i have full 29ers, slash 9.8 and Marin Trail XR carbon and a purpose mixed wheel spectral mullet.
i have no reason to justify my purchases because as above i have more than 1 bike. DH bikes prove what mullet offers in certain conditions.
I have ridden/owned 16-17 bikes in the last 2 years, 27.5, 29ers and mullets, i never said mullet was "better" it offers a different experience.
I've figured you out, you lack the bike riding skills to tell the difference and/or you cant afford to keep up with the bike industry.
Look i dont care if its either of the above, but stop being a dick - you're clearly out here to troll because you dont like or cant afford something... and the more you keep replying the worse you make yourself look.
He's just another troll like leroybrown and doublecrown that need the ban hammer.