Mountain bikes are expensive. We could argue all day about whether a $5,000 mountain bike gives you more enjoyment for your money than a motocross bike, an all-leather sex swing or a full-blown crack habit. At the end of the day, none of our bikes are logical purchases, they are complex, personal equations of available money, emotional attachments and downright stupidity.
When I was sixteen I worked Saturdays in the local bike shop for £12 a day (roughly $15 at current exchange rates). At that time things like minimum wage laws were strange things that happened to other people in far-off countries. Looking back, it worked out to earning about £1.50 an hour and the rancid stench of the cheap, plastic coffee machine I cleaned at the end of each day still haunts my nostrils. What I remember more clearly is what the job gave me: The owner let me make a trade order. Back then, this was the greatest thing in the world, me and my friends had heard of older kids ordering parts at "trade", but this was the first time one of us had access to this mythical luxury.
The morning I went to the shop to place my order remains clear in my mind. Stopping at the bank machine, I took out more money than I had ever seen in my life, certainly more than I had ever spent on a single item (about £200). Carefully carrying the money in my back pocket, scared in case something happened to me with such a fortune on me, I nervously crossed the town centre to the shop. The owner opened the suppliers' catalogue, scrawled a reference in his order book with a dog-earred pencil and took my money.
One of the few surviving photos of me riding my pride and joy. Bonus points are on offer if you can name all the questionable products here in this photo.
Several, agonising weeks of waiting later it arrived: A black, Azonic DS-1 frame. It was one of the greatest days of my youth and was without question my proudest possession, staying with me the best part of a decade before fears about aluminium fatigue finally retired it from service. I loved that bike. Hours and hours were spent searching the adverts at the back of the magazines (online shopping didn't exist then), trying to find good parts at a price I could afford. When birthdays and Christmas came around all I ever wanted was another upgrade for it; a fork, brakes, new handlebars. In the first few years of owning it there's a good chance I spent nearly as much time trying to find upgrades I could afford as I did riding it. Some evenings we would huddle round the catalogue from a local bike shop, daydreaming about what bikes we'd build if we had the money.
My story isn't a special one for anybody but me. Surely everyone who started riding at that kind of age has a similar story? It is part of the coming of age as a mountain biker - struggling to put together the best bike you can with what little you have. Some fifteen years separate me from the nervous teenager ordering my frame and in the intervening years life has changed. Everything became complicated at some point and, like every adult, my time seems to fill with never-ending commitments. I look around at my friends and we are all slightly fatter, slightly sorer and a hell of a lot busier.
Setting aside partners, children, houses or the million other small things that fill an adult life, the biggest single reason we are busy is work. This usually has the benefit of earning you more than £12 a day, even if it doesn't feel like it sometimes. So it should be a surprise to nobody that the majority of people who go out and buy new mountain bikes fall into this kind of bracket. The truth is that it's not teenagers, students or elite racers who keep the mountain bike industry turning, but slightly older people with decent jobs. People who have worked hard to have money to spend, people who maybe don't have time to scour the modern small ads (the internet) for bargains and, most importantly, people who might feel a little bit happier about the world by owning a bike they are excited about
We ran a poll last year
asking how readers bought their mountain bikes - the majority of people who replied said they hunted around online for the best bargain for their new bike. Don't get me wrong, I get it. In fact, virtually everybody working in the mountain bike industry gets it. While Mike Sinyard may not be living on economy beans and pre-flavoured pot noodles (or maybe he is, I've never had the chance to ask him), the truth is that if you want to make money you don't work in the mountain bike industry. Almost without exception, people who work for bike companies, the mountain bike media or anything to do with bikes do it for one, simple reason: they love bikes. And it's no secret that being in a position to buy bikes and gear you would never be able to afford otherwise is one the most-liked perks of working for a bike company. Why else would you take a job that pays a lot less than the equivalent role in a more mainstream industry? Not to get off track, but the point is: the mountain bike industry is filled with people who understand what it's like to struggle to feed your bike habit.
But there is one thing that seems to be overlooked these days, lost in a torrent of angry comments aimed at all kinds of aspects of bike design. Mountain bike companies are just that, companies. They make their bikes for the people who buy them. So, if you're not in that group of people who are buying new bikes at somewhere near the original retail price, you're not who they are making those bikes for. It may sound patronisingly obvious, but on the evidence, many people seem to have forgotten this simple truth.
No matter how you feel about them, bikes like this one are what are selling now
Wheelsize is one of the best examples of this phenomenon. No topic is as sure to produce a barrage of anger from certain quarters than a bicycle with a larger diameter wheel. People proudly proclaim they are "26 4 Life" or that it's a "conspiracy" by the blood-sucking corporate lizards of the bike industry. You are entitled to not want to buy a bicycle with bigger wheels. Your current bicycle's value should be measured in the fun it offers you, and this cannot be diminished by anybody but you. Nothing the bike industry does can change this. But, the reality is that in bike shops, the people who are walking in asking to buy new bicycles are saying, very clearly, that they want bigger wheels.
Speaking to a friend from the UK who runs a small bike shop in an area close to London, one that is synonymous with more affluent, older riders (ie. the ideal market for a bike shop), he was unequivocal about the shift in peoples buying habits. At the start of 2013 he bet against larger wheels, buying in stock of 26" wheeled bikes. He lost that bet. By the end of the summer he found himself having to discount the bikes heavily just to get them out of the shop. His customers wanted 27.5" or 29" bikes. Looking further up at the foodchain at the bike manufacturers, there is no better example of this trend than the 27.5"-wheeled Santa Cruz Bronson. There is no question - it was the right bike at the right time. People wanted a longer-travel trail bike with that wheelsize and Santa Cruz got the jump on the competition, getting their bike to market before the bigger players. Since its launch, they have sold as many of them as they can make.
There will always be more changes, bike design is going to keep evolving. Once everyone has accepted the whole wheelsize change (and in case anybody has not realised: it's s done deal) there will be something else that will surely piss some people off just as much. Whether it's electronic suspension, the death of the front mech or a new trend in geometry, there will be something. Inevitably progress doesn't please everybody. But, this progress has taken us from sketchy converted road bikes to advanced, relatively affordable mountain-eating machines in less than 30 years. Companies that have not only survived, but prospered, have done so by producing bicycles their customers want to buy. If you find yourself looking at new bikes and not liking what you see, then ask yourself, "Am I the person these bikes were made for?" The answer might be that you aren't. And remember, the by-product is that old products that didn't sell are discounted and second hand bikes trickle down the tree, so if you're not lucky enough to be in a position to lay down the money for a new bike, there are ways you can still build yourself a bike and go riding.
Next season I probably will, though. I'm still riding my 26" 160mm aluminum trailbike since 2010. I still enjoy riding it once or twice a week and the occasional long weekend vacation. The "industry" and "MTB Media" didn't force me to buy a new wheelsize. In fact, I just got a new set of 26" wheels for that bike this year. and there's 26" bikes available from specialized, santa cruz, etc. It's getting real old reading pinkbike members imagine that some unseen force is going to make them buy a new bike that they don't want.
Later in 2014 I'm going to buy a Santa Cruz Tallboy LTc with 140mm Pikes X0 2x10 shifters and drivetrain, Avid brakes, and Enve AM rims on DT hubs and keep the same crank bros acid pedals I've had since 2008 CAUSE I WANT TO! Not cause a website, corporation, bike manufacturer or a bunch of online strangers think I should.
And for those who do not understand english, @ridethree, in an industry as small as bike industry it is the demand that creates supply, not the other way around. If the companies tried to force us to buy something they would go bust. Its not like there is Jordan Belfort in every sales department of every bike company calling you and trying to sell you forks that do not work or a wheelsize you do not want.
And the point with BMX is just as funny. I remember GT BMX 24", nobody bought it, they dont make it anymore.
FAIL.
ChampionP nailed it.
Mountain biking for some reason is different. I think we only have ourselves to blame for not only buying this expensive junk, but also for vehemently defending it by slinging insults at people for second guessing "innovative" new products and standards.
It's time to start talking with our wallets. Put off buying the new bike for a year. Reject the new bottom bracket/axle width, handle bar diameter/headtube size/iscg/wheel size/etc. standard. Don't believe the hype folks. It's a consumerist trap.
But we'll buy everything virtually else? We're hypocrites. Every single one of us.
If you don't want to buy into a new wheel size, then don't. No one's holding a knife to your nuts. Just stop bloody whining about it like 5 year olds.
Yes your 8 speed technically still shifts, yes your 26" still rolls, and your canti brakes still brake. But 90* head tubes technically work, so do 500mm bars, single wall rims, and 2 foot bottom brackets. Its purely opinion that you think your old shit is better. I love the old Tacoma body style, but Toyota changed it. Because innovate or die. You cant just keep producing the same shit every year, technology gets better, things get better and things change. Its pure fact that new bike equipment is better. Its lighter, crisper, its easier to work on and replace parts, typically more durable, it just works better people. If you are still running f*cking toe straps on your new carbon bike, or your using an Azonic Love Seat pointed to the sky, or you have flat pedals on your road bike, or you put f*cking stuffed animals or squeeky toys on your handlebars, your opinion does not matter. You're not helping our sport grow, your only helping yourself look and sound like a complete gaper. Buy a recumbent, and please don't reproduce.
Think of it this way, you have exotic car companies which produce 200k+ vehicles and then you have Nissan who makes the gtr which out preforms cars twice its price. There are quality bikes out there for lower costs and if you want to actually change the status quo you will support their vision rather than buying into the corporate money hungry brands. Granted they are all businesses but some worse than others cough*specialized*cough.
When the hell did More Options become a bad thing?
I love the diversity of stuff that is available. It provides options and opportunity for improvement and experimentation. The lesser options get phased out. The greater options get endorsed and continue to evolve until they are also replaced by the demand for and creation of even better options.
Larger wheels are just an option. I will pick and ride whatever I think is going to be the most fun to ride for my intended purpose. If you are buying bikes and products that you are not having fun on, then you are a complete and total idiot.
So many comments on here contradict themselves.
I want the BEST Possible performance from my bike! I want all the latest and greast tech on my bike! I want all the latest and greatest to cost the same or less than the low/mid level stuff! I want cheaper bikes and components! I want it all for as cheap as possible! And I want all the new tech to always fit on my current rig, and be transferrable if I want to buy a brand new frame!
What!? I cant have all this!?! That wont fit on my old frame, and my old compenents wont always fit on that new frame! It Must be a conspiracy dammit!
All of these things are true, but we cant have them all at once.
If Anything, all the 26" stuff is STILL Available, and it is costing less and less every day, so you kind of have it all at the moment.
The brand spanking new tech is going to continue coming out, and unfortunately its not always going to be compliant with what you are currently running, but I think 26" stuff is going to be available for a very very very very long time. Which is rad.
Bike companies aren't completely made up of modest people who are fine with not making much money just because they work for a bike company and can do what they love. Of course they look for ways to make as much money as possible in what they do. It seems pretty obvious that because the sector of the market who have the most money and buy the newest and most expensive parts aren't necessarily the most knowledgeable about exactly what technologies/parts they like, companies are able to come up with all these new standards and sell them with promises of great performance benefits.
Maybe it's just me but I feel like a big reason companies are introducing lots of these technologies is to make it so everybody needs to buy all the new stuff because the old stuff (26" wheels, 150mm spacing, etc.) is hard to find and supposedly doesn't work as well or offer as good of performance.
The main benefit to the newer wheel sizes is the fact it has brought many new people into mtb. This is good for the industry and good for our trails. Getting an "Average Joe" on a mouton bike helps promote our sport. No longer just looked at as a dirt-bag sport (although I am a dirt-bag at heart). I have seem the benefits here in the PNW where new trails have opened up or been improved because of the sports popularity.
It's all good…but I'm "26 4 Life"!
Also "the average joe" is probably the worst argument ever- very few people are average and it is a huge over generalization. They are having fun because they are using something more than their pupils and their thumbs.
Zach has it- except buying new phones "like crazy" should be replaced with "because they are crazy".
That's exactly what I felt last year when I bought a Nomad, couple of days after SC announced the Bronson. The only reason I stuck to the Nomad was that I could get the frame right then, use my old components (wheels and forks). Otherwise I would have bought the Bronson for 2 reasons: It's lighter and it was already clear 26 started to die. Not even 6 month later at Eurobike how many new 26" bikes where shown? I could only count one. 27.5? A LOT. So if you're showing loads of new bikes in 27.5 and only have older 26" for sale what people think? 27.5 is the future, and I can still sell a good price in 3 years. 26? I don't even know if I'll still find my favourit tyres in 3 years... No the industry doesn't listen to us on Pinkbike nor the other ones. They just drive the way it goes.
As for people whining they're not making money in the bike industry I can't help thinking it can't be the case for everybody, and those for whom it's the case do have some sort of compensation. I can't help thinking about it when I read in the last issue of Dirt Ed H making a moralist article about buying the original NW chainrings from SRAM because blabla they invested R&D (even if it's only a new idea in the bike world). And then I see the same guy testing the new DH-specific drive train in NZ (trip paid by who?) not even having a comment on the eye-watering price of that stupid derailleur: 250$ for made in china derived from another drive train!!! Wow, they put longer screws to fit the narrow 7 gears?? That must be why!!! No sorry some people DO make money in the bike industry and some others have nice compensations.
i'm in the market for a new dh bike (to keep for 2-3 years) but sod spending any money in this kind of turbulant market. maybe next year if it settles down.
Choice is good for the consumer but bad for the manufacturers therefore the manufcaturers limit choice and force something new and profitable. Understandable, but not for the benefit of the customer at all. Shame is that we are all suckers and go along with it for lack of other options most of the time. Even in the SRAM 7 speed article they were quite upfront about being able to make a cheaper option but sticking two fingers up to everyone in making the most expensive and profitable option possible. Not bad necessarily from the company's view but not in the consumers best interest as this PB article would suggest. Sure the 7 speed stuff may not be aimed at me but it's hardly an isolated incident but more of a representative example of the market being very much driven my the bigger companies, not by the consumer. Consumers come second and are unfortunately suckers for lack of other options.
No I'm not buying a bike because of how much I can sell it again. But if there are 2 bikes I like the same, cost the same, and one will be unsalable in 3 years or I won't be able to find parts (look for great forks with straight 1.1/8 straight steerer tube, the choice is pretty clear.
I'm not against improvements. But clutch derailleurs for instance didn't make my 10sp drivetrain obsolete and didn't cost much more than the previous model. And sure there are still things to improve.
@EnduroManiac: That is the way it has been with the bike industry for at least 23 years (that's how long I've been riding mountain bikes, and I'm sure it wasn't different before that). Yes, a used bike with 26" wheels might be almost unsellable in a few years. So will be a bike without a tapered steering tube (you already mentioned that yourself), or a fork with a traditional QR axle, and so on... "standards" if you even want to call them that, in the bike industry have always been short lived. 27.5" wheels won't render any more old frames "useless", than untapered steerer tubes, missing disc break attachments, steep head angles and a lot of other features did in the past.
@ BeardlessMarinRider rather well put
A 100mm travel 26 suits my needs perfectly. Something like a 26er Anthem/ Superlight/ Epic from old would do me nicely. Can I get a 26er version from any of these brand now? No!
Also @ Fuzzy: Where the comparisons you and others make to other standards such as QR/ steerer tubes breaks down is that despite the emergence of popular new standards the alternatives continue to exist and be easy to buy. If I want to go out and buy a straight steered fork I can. Same if I want a frame with a QR rear end. Can I buy a new 26er XC frame or bike? Bloomin' near impossible. Even to buy a 26er "enduro" frame or bike is going to be pretty difficult this year.
I'm not against new standards, but want to be given the choice in where I spend my pennies.
Sure a 29er hardtail might roll over small bumps a fraction better than a 26er hardtail but larger wheels don't replace rear suspension in terms of tracking the ground and providing comfort on the rougher courses/ marathons. The extra weight in the wheels/ tyres/ forks/ etc on a 29er defies XC race logic of keeping rotational weight to a minimum and overall weight as low as possible (weight is a massive factor on anything over a few % gradient in terms of climbing if you do the maths). The cost of wheels approaching sensible weights but being stiff enough for 29ers are astronomical compared to a light 26 wheelset. My current 26er full sus is sub 8kg (Cannondale Scalpel). I can throw 4 or 5 times the money at a 29er full sus XC bike and it won't be anywhere near as light. The point is where you make gains in one area with a 29er you lose elsewhere.
None of this takes away from the fact that 26er options across all disciplines are becoming severely limited due to cynical marketing. Give people choice and let their money speak.
P.S. This PB article should be put firmly in the Troll category.
Or, did the MTB companies come out with the "latest and greatest" and these people who may not have been mountain biking their entire lives feel the need to buy the "next big thing"? The bike industry says "27.5 is better than 26", so of course people with the $$$ are going to buy 27.5. The article is way off in my opinion.
I've worked in multiple shops for many years, and I've found that people will buy whatever they think will make them ride faster, go bigger, and be better- even if it won't actually make one lick of difference in reality. It's all about perception, and the MTB industry has created one that says "buy these new 'standard' bikes". My friends and I often refer to it as "trying to buy fast", and many bike shop consumers do exactly that.
That's exactly it. This is really a classic 'chicken or the egg' scenario. Are the bike companies producing the 27.5 because that's what people want, or do people want the 27.5 because that's what the bike companies are producing and pushing right now.
If probably have to say it's more that latter. Like you said, how many customers were coming in 4 years ago saying they wanted a 27.5? The answer would be none, because no one even knew what a 27.5 was until the industry started to tell people they needed it and how great it is.
Now I'm also not dumb. I know exactly why the companies are doing what they are doing. It's their job to sell bikes, and the easiest way to do that is to make people feel like thier old equipment is no longer adequate or to force a shift by phasing out and old standard. But just because it's sound business doesn't mean we as consumers aren't allowed to point out the huge load of BS involved in the whole situation.
THIS... forums.mtbr.com/27-5-650b/list-27-5-compatible-26ers-376656.html thread started on mtbr on Jan 24th 2008 (so six years ago) to compile a list of frames/bikes that were KNOWN to be 650B compatible for consumers looking to adopt the tire size to their existing bikes... it started with 17 bike models, there are now hundreds listed and many with photos.
The only "no one" who didn't know where the folks who only come to play here who deny the existence of anything else in the bicycle world exists.
Walmart sells more dollars worth of cheap ass bikes to americans each year than all the fancy brands in the world sell in gravity-oriented segment bikes. And Walmart is already selling 29ers and probably soon 650Bs.
If you want an even better example, look at 75% of anything made for triathalon people. Most of it is expensive crap -looking at you, Speedfill... but people eat it up, because it might add .1 mph on their avg speed, and it doesn't require them to train harder.
Enjoying your stiff long-travel single crown fork? Tapered head tube.
Like good brakes? Disc brake mount standards.
Stiff BB/cranks? 30mm crank axles.
Robust rear wheels? 142x12mm rear ends.
Sure some of them were misguided but for the most part new standards bring with them the features and performance we demand. Sure you don't need to run out and buy each one that comes along. I tend to wait 2 years between bikes, which in our quickly-evolving sport is about as much time as it takes for a sufficient number of new standards to emerge.
I bought an Enduro 29er last year. It's alloy but a huge improvement over the carbon 26" Enduro I had before. It's actually stiffer (mostly due to the better rear end, pivots and 142mm axle) and also brought a ton of other wicked features. No crying here.
Disc brake mount standards? Are breaks better with post mount than they were with IS mounts? Not really...
Is a tapered headtube really better than a 1.5" head tube? Not really... While I do prefer using my stems over and over, so I like this one, it wasn't really a performance upgrade.
External BBs? Amazing upgrade over internal.
Again, some improvements are great, and the advantage is real. Others, just to make a new thing. It is what it is. I'll keep buying it (like 3 years after the tech has come out, so I can afford it).
Btw, i have just spent My money on a new Nukeproof mega ....... 26ins wheels, because i for one have always found them to work remarkably well.
26 tried and tested (by everyone) forever
You cannot conclude a paragraph with that kind of statement because you do not explain it. And there is a lot to say on the role of media, marketing, the fear of obsolescence and even the current offering of bike shops.
I also thought that there was no evidence that people wanted "bigger wheels" except the hearsay that gets spouted out on places like PB. So, I went a -looking and found among other things, this: www.canadiancyclist.com/races12/Supplier_Q3_2012.pdf
Take a look at the data for 26 inch sales for 2011 to 2012 (no 650B around then in the shops don't forget) and the same for 29ers.
Interesting isn't it. Matt is not pulling words out of thin air. If you go looking, you can find the industry data that might shock you. It certainly shocked me when I saw it, however, it is what it is; people appeared to want an alternative to 26, and the figures don't lie, they bought bigger wheels, just like Matt said.
"The 26" category continues to decline at an increasing pace."
"The decline of the 26" category accelerated sharply"
"26" was down 42.44%."
"For the Year-To-Date, total Unit Sales are up 3.54%, with 26" down 26.34%"
" 29" increased by 202.63%"
This was figures year - on - year from 2011 to 2012 people. There were NO 650B's around. People were not buying as many 26 inch bikes and there is the data to prove it. Instead the 29er segment was growing. Doubling in fact!!!
In the light of all that data, imagine you are the person who has to take the decision at Santa Cruz with the Bronson... do you keep it as a 26 inch bike or go with a 650B? Which one do you think has the best chance of becoming a big seller in the climate of the industry in 2012? Your sales figures are screaming at you to not bring out a 26. The whole industries numbers are screaming at everyone that people are buying bigger wheels.
You could of course decide to ignore the sales data. I'm not sure you'd still be in a job though.
The main problem I have is that all the manufacturers are stopping production on premium non-DH 26" bikes at a cyclic rate. The only brand new 26" bike I'd like to own is probably the SB-66 and the word on the street is it may not be around much longer. In a few years when I want a new bike I'll probably have to settle for a 27.5 or buy old technology used... No bueno.
That data showed (in another choice quote) that 2012 saw the first time ever since records began (in Canada at least) that the 26ers were not the best selling wheelsize of any bike, so there are obviously a lot of them being sold. I think what we have to assume is that the data for the period since the end of the last decade had been showing that the consumer was moving away from 26ers, that this move was increasing year over year and the industry would be well advised to strike while the iron was hot and get ahead of the competition by putting a lot of resources into a "tweener". This is what has happened: as Matt said, it is a done deal meaning I shall await the arrival of cheap second hand 26 inch frames and forks and see if I can't pick me up a bargain.
The 26" MTBs did sell more still than 29ers overall but the drop in sales of 26" MTBs was just about equal to how high the 29er and hybrid markets grew in just a 3 quarter (Jan-Sep) comparison 1 year apart. 26er Front suspension lost about 18k units and dual suspension lost about 2.6k. 29ers grew 15k and hybrids grew 10k. In other words people who were buying front suspension mtb's to use for commuting/pathways stopped and shifted to hybrids, and a the rest went to 29ers along with a lot of dual suspension sales (probably in the XC market). It would account for the fact that as of 2014 Rocky Mountain in particular has even dropped the 26er version of the Element full suspension (replaced by the Thunderbolt 650B which offers better roll-over/traction for the same wheel travel).
See this is the actual 650B mountain bike timeline....
Its been around a century in europe... in the late 1970s American mountain bike pioneers like Tom Ritchey, Joe Breeze, Gary Fisher and others were building the first of what would become mountain bikes. They all came from cyclocross racing backgrounds... they wanted a large diameter large volume tire that had an off-road tread. Nokian in Finland offered such tires, in both 700C and 650B varieties... but the majority of their production was earmarked for europe and the soviet union (where the bikes using them already existed in great numbers). So they had to MAKE DO with the biggest they could find in the USA which was a pre-ww2 tire size used on balloon/beach cruiser type bikes. That's how we ended up stuck with 26ers.
Fast forward to 2007 and 650B has had a cult following among custom framebuilders in the USA for a couple decades especially for touring bikes and tandems, much as they're used in europe for. So this fellow name Kirk Pacenti who's a framebuilder convinces Panaracer to make him some off-road tires, and convinces Velocity to offer a new rim (the Blunt) in 650B. Neither manufacturer really expected much success but they were willing to take a gamble. Consumers get wind of this after Kirk builds a bike to show off the tires/rims at the North American Handbuilt Bike Show, and start emailing/phoning to order tires. I got my first tires from Kirk. I ordered my rims from Velocity. Many others repeated this. As consumers browbeat more tire and rim makers, and fork makers to support the Bs, media got involved as stuff was submitted for testing... and then OTHER brands started to take notice... and then a few racers who suddenly got results opened the floodgates.
Very true that. That probably also explains why I can't seem to find someone to make me a 4WD SUV with space for four full suss bikes and 4 people in the back with fully washable leather upholstery and non-scratch interior coachwork at a price point that doesn't leave me balking at the price.
Car industry manufacturers claim that we "need" to get 40mpg, when the reality is that a $1200 suburban will take 1000's of gallons of fuel to even begin to compare with the cost of owning a prius, for example.
The general population has jumped on the mpg bandwagon, and outdoorsy types have jumped on the bigger wheeled bandwagon, I'm just glad that I didn't feed into the hype, and therefore I will take their poor mileage cars and 26" bikes off their hands at a fraction of their retail price!
www.goo-net.com/cgi-bin/fsearch/goo_used_search.cgi?category=USD&limit=100&phrase=%EF%BC%A7%EF%BC%AD%EF%BC%A3+%E3%82%B5%E3%83%90%E3%83%BC%E3%83%90%E3%83%B3&query=%EF%BC%A7%EF%BC%AD%EF%BC%A3+%E3%82%B5%E3%83%90%E3%83%BC%E3%83%90%E3%83%B3
But in the topic of 26 or 27.5 inch wheel size. I honestly can't imagine jump bikes with 27.5 so i hope they wont drop 26s.
I know jump bikes are a small part of the income in bike industries but still, killing 26 size would turn the world of dirt jumping upside down and that would be a mess because not everyone would chose a bmx.
www.pinkbike.com/photo/10558856
However, despite that, a significant part of these people who are actually out there to get a new bike do not walk in to the shop saying "I want this bike", they come in and ask what bike should they get. And the shop owner will obviously try to help and get the customer what he needs, but also what keeps his business up, and if he gets the word out that this bigger wheel size is better and sells it to a bunch of those people, good chances are people perfectly happy with their 26ers will come and want to give it a try too.
Last time I bought my downhill bike was my Status in 2012, I bought it in my local bike shop, and as I raced for the team, I got the team price, also only bought the frame 'cos neither full build appealed to me. I'd like to get a new ride next year again, likely building up the S-Works Demo frame 'cos I like the geometry and feel of the big S. I do realize I'm one in a million, but will I buy it if the wheel size on that bike goes up? I doubt it. Will others buy it? That's up to marketing. The buying force of the people do indeed drive the market, but to an extent, the marketing drives these people. Not only in the bike industry, it's no conspiracy, it's a general common sense.
www.redbubble.com/people/tefaz/works/10246607-correction-guy-youre?p=sticker
"you're buying/selling.... YOU ARE buying/selling"
You don't say "your selling a bike" you say "you're selling a bike".
My 29er fits me well. I ride fast and smooth and the 29er helps with traction with my weight/size (I'm 6'0'' and weigh 180ish).
My best friend, however is 5'6'' 160ish lbs and rides a 26" bike because it makes sense for him.
He can rail a lot of switchbacks harder than I can, but I'm usually faster on straights and climbs. I don't think it's because of wheel size, I think it's because of riding styles.
If you don't like a 29er, don't buy them. It's simple. They do work for folks like me, and I prefer to ride them.
As long as there will be guys making all mountain hardtail steel frames for a couple hundred pounds I know I'll have a way to get my share of fun.
What's really upsetting is the industry constantly pushing new standards, making perfectly good frames obsolete just to push even us marketing-immune to keep upgrading. My steel head tube is as stiff as it can get, doesn't need to be tapered, but every season there is one fork less offering the 1 1/8'' option and I know I'll have to buy a new 44mm-headtubed frame if I ever want to change my fork.
Now that the frenzy has reached the fever-pitch we predicted, and manufacturers and shops can't afford to design and stock products that the "programmed" consumer no longer thinks he wants, the deed is done.
In five-ten years, someone will start marketing the new, lighter, stronger, more flickable, fun-filled 26" wheeled bike.
They might not be the most popular genres for cashed up old dudes, but the FMB world tour is all on 26" .
It will remain the tire size for those who get upside down.
Before you sell all your 26ers go watch every freeride mountainbike video ever made, all 26" bikes baby.
You might think you don't look lame, lycra clad and pot bellied riding a carbon 650b midlife crisis mobile.
But your not a young gun inverted 26er. Go blow your cash on that carbon cushy cruzer. Try to man it up by saying your "Enduro"
Go for it. You know you want to.
I can bet you any money Matt Wrag that particulary in Europe there will be good choice of 26" components at least for next decade.
Companies are not making best profit on high end bikes, they earn most on mid-level machines from your local shop and there always will be place for new brand that won't deny existence of 26" wheels.
I might consider switching to 27.5" in next 2 or three years but for the time being I'm very happy with mine bike setup. Thing that irritates me the most is lack of forks with 20mm axle and I'll be force to switch to 15mm someday.
It's the same with "Enduro" Now everybody in the industry wipes they azzes with "enduro specific" everything just to sell more and more but give them 2 years and the "enduro specific" madness will end and switch to something "new".
My point is: screw industry and hit your favorite mountain trail on your mountain bike and have fun. If big companies won't provide you with stuff you want there always WILL BE small independent manufacturer that will.
Democracy and especially freedom makes societies rich. But democracy can never survive in a rich society. Folks are too busy living the good life to pay attention to what our leaders are doing. If you don't believe that. Why do less than half the people turn up to vote? The reason is we pay our politician so little. The only people that show up for the job are lawyers and such that are so incompetent that they can't make a living in their chosen profession.
And don't worry about the health of earth. This world will be healthy and supporting life long after homo sapiens have ceased to exist.
Great topic for a Thursday morning. I'm going riding today. I'll be riding something in ten years.
Sometime the most interesting posts are those "Below threshold threads that are hidden"
2 weeks ago I was behind a man and woman riding a trail slowly, the over weight woman was on a 29er hard tail and was clearly a beginner, absolutely nothing wrong with that at all, I waited until I had a clear part to over take safely which was going up hill, so I did, the woman screamed at her hubby, HOW DID HE PASS ME, MY BIKES MEANT TO BE QUICKER THAN THEM OLD TYPES HE'S ON, I just looked at the man, smiled, and carried on thinking that she'd just bought into all the sales mans bull shit about buying the latest bigger wheel size will make you an instantly fast and great rider the first time you ride your new bike, and there's loads more like her out there now, and many more to come in the spring, I just hope they all don't hate 26" bike riders
In my riding collective we have a slightly older more wealthy gent, every three months or so he’s buying the latest and greatest carbon this-that-or-the-other and been through more superbikes this year than I’ve had bikes my whole life, if he wasn’t such a giant bastard we’d all get a lot of hand-me-downs but other PB members benefit from him. I’m a new trail bike every 5 years or so rider, and other riding collectives are hucking upgraded early 00’s steeds. My point is we all have a place spending money differently in the bike industry and we are all needed in the great Circle-of-Shred.
Can somebody establish a company which will be doing bikes and components for these people? PLEASE. I will even pay more money for these products if they will be reliable.
I assume are riding a penny farthing then?
I assume you are not on a hardtail with a rigid fork and rim brakes, right? That's what I would be on today, if I had decided to stay on what I had in the first place and just push my limits. I prefer to also have my bike evolve.
It seems even with wheel size debate (which I really don't care one way or the other about) that certain companies were on board but with minimal success untill the industry decided to get excited about it. Haro had 650b back in 07-08 era and I don't recall folks getting too worked up over them. Gary Fisher has been into 29ers for years but the industry took a little longer to decide there were any benifits to it. Where's all this R&D?
Again when gt brought out the rts
My favourite line being that your bikes value is one that you give it by the fun it gives you.
Not personally bothered about wheel size i ride a 26 and i will until the frame fails, if it sees me 5-10 years then so be it, and i will buy again
All of this follows historical writings/critiques of "free market capitalism". Look them up.
In short time, fork manufacturers will stop making high end forks for 26" wheels, and high end wheel manufacturers would be stupid to continue making high end wheels when there are very few forks & frames available for that wheel size. So again I ask, where is my choice in this matter? I guess I could just hope that my current 26" components will last for ever and ever in the world of mountain biking. I'm sure that will work out just fine.
1.) I would bet that MOST people IN the bike industry are not paying even close to retail for their parts, bike and gear - it's not fair to compare them to the average consumer.
2.) People wander in to shops and ask for/about the new wheel sizes because the bicycle media is flooded with propaganda about it. Sure, an odd fellow here or there may actually do a good bit of research, maybe built/converted one himself, but it's not as if there were droves of customers flooding bike shops demanding ANOTHER wheel size. The war over the 29er had just about ended and people were comfortable with the new kid on the block.
Before the Bronson, most people hadn't ridden a 650 bike. I read on almost every website and magazine SOMETHING about 27.5 wheels coming out. But none of the people I ride with ever talked about them. Or 29ers for that matter. They didn't exist, they weren't wished for or wondered about. The 26 was doing great, if there was a problem with riding, it was likely the rider's issue, not something the bike would "improve". Then, maybe we're all not just forward thinking enough, lol.
The demand starts here, on the web and in magazines, and then the trade shows, and the circle propagates itself. Because the industry needs to create the desire for a new product. Not saying it's necessarily evil, but its not like droves of folks were demanding the new wheel size (as the article above loosely suggests). The industry demanded it. Over and over through the bike media. Its basic advertising and marketing, that's all. Make you realize that you're unhappy, show people using a product that look happier than you - that's all they have to do. That's all they did. The 29er was (probably unintentionally) a good test to see just how well consumers would take the bait.
Just wait till the whole "rider size" thing catches some more wind. I predict it will gain hold at just about the point where 650 sales start leveling off....
That's fine, innovate, make new wheel sizes, but all we're asking for are choices. Don't kill off the tried and true 26 just because you got a few emails. The majority are still riding on 26 like me, probably till their end of days cause it just fit me better. Don't forget the kids growing up and teenagers, their prime riding days are most likely on a 26, but what do I know, I'm only a consumer.
Yes to: DS1, Marzocchi Z3s (the flylight 100 version), HS33s, Middleburn cranks, Panaracer tyres and Giro Switchblade.
The stem was a Kore 3-bolt stem (I could never afford the Azonic stem), but the bar is Azonic. The guide was one of the cheap MRP copies that were available at the time. I did buy the Tioga DH tyres for that bike, but they wouldn't fit the rear triangle!
@mattwragg - I'm still riding a pair of D521 rims to this day! Laced up to a Hadley DH (f) and Pro2 (r).
But nowadays there are many small rider owned companies, that are actually focussed on really small scenes, like the 24"/26" street scene for example, and put their full focus on that category of young riders with not much money.
These companies actually listen to what the real hardcore riders want and need, and give them what they ask for.
Some of these companies even became big with this attitude.
Names of companies like these are: Black Market Bikes, Pride-Street, ILLbike, Dobermann (RIP), but also bigger companies like NS Bikes and Dartmoor belong in this category.
These companies are not based on what a 40 years old dude with a lot of budget but not much knowledge wants to buy in his lbs.
These are based on what young hardcore riders want to order at the specific online shops.
I really like their products; that geared rear hub that has a 9T in the back being my favourite.
Wrong, Rocky mountain did it first with the Altitude.
The rest of the customers (the general population of bicycle consumers) are stuck along for the ride, some willingly, some apathetically, and some (26"4lifers) kicking and screaming. But at the end of the day the gear is getting better and cheaper, so for the bulk of the market that's just along for the ride, they are winning whether they know/appreciate it or not. Even the single-speed-rigid-hardtails are better north an they were ten years ago. Lighter, tougher, better geo, and better prices.
As an industry individual (middleman I guess because my job is to educate the general consumer about why this new "forced standard" is "important"), I have found that you just have to let the general consumers vent their frustrations, just offer the advice and be ready to sell and support old or new standards. It uses the customers is always right!
They will possess you unless you change the wheel size on your ride
Now is the time for 26" and I to cuddle close together, yeah.
All through the night I'll save you from the terror of 650B,
I'll make you see
That this is thriller, thriller night
'Cause 26" can thrill you more than any 650B would ever dare try
Thriller, thriller night
So let me hold you 26" and share a killer, diller, chiller, thriller here tonight!
No doubt the industries supplies what those with disposable incomes want. The question is, why do they want the larger wheel size.
I think one often overlooked point is competitive social media; It's broadly agreed that larger wheels make you faster at the expense of fun -at least in the various short to medium travel categories where most bikes are sold.
Whilst you cant measure fun so easily, you can be scored and ranked according to how fast you are & if you are competitive by nature you will value that.
Since you could say that 'competitiveness' and 'fun seeking' are core personally traits it might also explain why people tend to be a bit touchy about their chosen wheel size.
frame: i think it's azonic ds1 ????
forks: Z1 or z2's I cant remember blue z1's but could be wrong easily...
Brakes are magura's
full size mrp chain guide...
and the rest is a bit blury but willing to guess mavic 521's for rims cos everyone had 521's back then....
I just purchased my new bike because to me it's perfect, it will be the best bike I have ever owned (until it's time for new one)! I went with a 650b bike, why because I personally can tell the difference in all 3 wheel sizes when I ride, I think the 650b is the superior wheel size but that's my opinion not the industry but mine! That's what is still special about Mountain Biking no one can tell me what I have to do it's up to me and generally speaking the industry in the end gives us what we want.
It was my first trade buy too:
www.pinkbike.com/photo/7717587
Wish I never sold it to buy climbing gear.
nice article Matt
But I also remember working really hard for every bike part like them young kids, but I did go to my local bike shop to buy most them until one day the boss walked up to me and asked me if I wanted a job. Which i now do for the love of it and the trade price.
So, stop crying that manufacturers are evil, there is always some of them who make a bike just for you!
P.S. And remember about German bike makers - they try their hardest to make most wicked bikes out there! Like Nicolai.
Their market may be a niche discipline of mountain biking [Fat bikes] or it could be the broader market [fat bikes are gaining broader appeal].
Marketing is the fine art of taking those small innovations and convincing/ telling the market that it is what it really needs. Sometimes the market comes to the supplier and says we really need this. It's a push pull effect. Either way, over time those innovations that improve the experience stick. Those that don't disappear. The market ensures this for all of us.
We all had bikes 5-10 years ago that were quite different from the ones we are riding today. Today's ride is better than the one 10 years ago. Innovation/ evolution and market forces drove this process. My next bike will be quite different from the one I ride today. Great I can't wait. Whether I buy new or used the experience and technology will be ahead of that of today. In the meantime I really enjoy riding my bike. But to sit here and debate innovation/ evolution and market force impacts on our bikes...? Might as well go out and pump water against the tide.
I'm kind of sad that 26" is going away. I don't think it was a supply and demand thing because it was mostly done in one model year, it was manufactures making the switch. Good write up's in magazines about the KHS bikes and other nicely built 27.5 helped the issue. Bikes do take a few years to develop so I think manufactures had a plan a while ago.
If the demand for 26" parts stays, like selling out of forks and frames early in the year, they will keep making them. That would be them listening to us. If it's 5 guys standing a corner with signs saying "Bring back 26!!!" they won't be listening. But from what I've heard, 26" bikes are collecting dust, so I think it's an end to 26" complete bikes. Have to religiously do maintenance on my forks to make sure they last a few more years, then it looks like 27.5 for me.
1- Why are you buying bikes based on the resale value not based on what they are like to ride? That is so backwards.
2- A few years from now 26" bikes might be rare enough that your second hand one has a higher value to someone who doesn't like bigger wheels. Let's be positive for once.
So new product gets developed so someone can tell a good story on facebook rather than what really is needed on the mountain or makes sens in a shop... .
I am working on a bike-related product now with the intent of starting a business and it is that disconnect that terrifies me. If I my perspective of the "normal" consumer has faded as a rider, how blind will I be as a business owner with all the stresses and skewed priorites of running that business?
My most important role as a sponsored rider is being the liaison between companies and riders. I often approach these companies as the "voice of the people" disregarding my personal opinions and telling what the people truly desire. This is after talking to hundreds of riders day after day and consolidating it into one voice. One voice that can be drowned out in a heartbeat. The greater insult is that the next day, I will see that thousands of dollars have been spent on "consumer research" where there are no conversations, no personal connections, no explanations; just a "check this box or that box" survey.
And the point is, the industry dont manufacture new frames cause their customers have gone crawling to them, begging them for a 650b, but because they've realized that they might make much more money. that way.
Business is based on purchasing a lot of unnecessary stuff, and marketing is responsible for doing so. With enough money, you can get people to believe they need desperately any useless thing.
I own two 26" bikes and i'm not thinking of changing either till either they broke or something really worthwhile comes out. I mean, the big-sized wheels are a joke, dont get better anything. Well, maybe they do improve some accounts.
innovation whether put on, part put on, not put on ... is typically the natural order of things... think about how many pubes you once had and how many people on here shave em off to that same time __ years ago... ride yer soon to be relic / perhaps start ups will have 26" preserving notions ... but when an industry moves, you can't really fight the flow, you can only adapt and catch em on the flip side.
oh and people can be stupid, ignorant, blinded, overly faithful, ETC. ... all of us!
1) They make sex swings in something besides leather?
2) Are those old Hammer shin guards?
3) Your buddy bet against 29" wheels in 2013? I'd make sure to not take any of his advice on personal investments or other bets!
i intend to take good advantage of all the discounts i can get on "old" 26" products during the next few years and will ride tough on them as long as i can. i am a dirtbag consumer and roll with whatever works to do the job, as long as it is a quality product. when will goodwill open up bike shops? probably never, but thank god we can still score an occasional set of trail building boots from them. then we go to craigslist and recycled cycles for our quality bike products, that cutting edge consumers have decided are no longer superior.
Disclaimer: I love my 26" bike
I doubt it'll go down like that with those two examples, but it sure would be a shame if it does.
But, only in the cycling world is it acceptable for every industry insider to take advantage of "bro-deals", while they whine for the rest of the community to pay full retail at their local bike shop. Hypocricy much? Guess what? We live in a global economy, and like the middling wheel size (as if it matters), it's here to stay. So take full advantage of your pro-form, and we'll be here to take if off your hands at the end of the season. Your welcome.
All of this follows historical writings/critiques of "free market capitalism". Look them up.
Except that the recent change to 650b is due to planned obsolescence from the big boys (like Giant who stands to benefit from lesser productions costs by going to one wheel size and offering less choice) in order to sell bikes to people in a stagnating market. This creates the demand that the smaller guys, like Yeti, have to then respond to.
Yeti loves the 66. Customers don't want to have a bike that they won't be able to get good/high end new parts for. Planned obsolescence with very little (in any) performance improvement. Just like 15mm thru axles, full 1.5 inch head tubes, pressfit BB, clutch derailleurs only avail for 10 or 11 speed drive trains, etc etc etc...
It's not "Innovate or die."
It's "Plan obsolescence or die."
More choice is good. 650b is not more choice, its a wholeshot replacement with disputed "gains" that offers a one time bump to the bike companies.
When this tactic is proven to work (once again, but on a much greater scale), I bet we'll see it being used over and over, in even more rapid cycles and larger scales, by the bike industry.
and could finish with "SO STOP BITCHING AND GO RIDE YOUR DAM BIKE!"
And for "the industry" listening only to people who buy at retail prices at the local store, the industry listens to the people buying, period. If more bikes are sold online at discount prices than through stores, so be it, the industry will (have to) adjust to the market.
As far as wheel sizes go: Yes, "the industry" is not going to listen to people whining on the internet, or claiming that "nobody will ever need XYZ", because if they did there wouldn't be disc brakes on mountain bikes, and everybody would still be riding around with 130mm stems and 560mm bars.
And, by the way, a 15% profit would be a dream for anyone in the IT, automotive, or several other industries.
So, with that being said the title is contradicting. If bike manufactures are not listening to us then they would go out of business do to lack of sales. They are listening to us. Us being the people who can afford it, are willing to save up, or take a loan to purchase their bikes, gear and clothes.
Not trying to be a smart ass but the title should read "Why the Mountain Bike Industry Isn't Going To Listen To You the people who can't afford our shit"
Bike companies as do a lot of other companies do listen. They won't do 100% everything the public wants but for the vast majority of the people who are real purchasers they do listen to.
Specialized is the epitome of "industry" and they were late to 29ers and late to 27.5. Doesn't look like forcing new technology to me. We want faster, lighter, stronger, better, etc. The industry responds, but it drives up the price year after year.
The next bitch fest will be centered around electronics - suspension, drive train or whatever. It's already here - Zesty uses electronics to control the suspension. Companies are bastardizing bikes with electric motors. As others have said, the best way to influence "industry" is with your wallet.
The people who buy full priced complete bikes want 650b and enduro specific and all the other stuff that the pinkbike community loves to hate because they are older people with money who want a bike that is easy to ride fast once a week.
You want to save money? Pick up one of these new bad boys USED, let the original wealthy bike owner take the 30-40% hair cut and ride the "almost newest and greatest" at a huge discount only a year later. That's what I just did with a Trigger 1 29er, saving more than $2.5K along the way with MINIMAL downside/risk...
.... Still, no doubt a manufacturer will pick up on that; can you picture it?
now stocking Santa Cruz
shop WalMart value or get a better paying job or cut back on other expenses?
Yes it did.
This is one of the main reasons why people in the bike industry WILL listen to you, their products are direct descendants of market wants and needs. Without the people riding the bikes, there would be no drive to make better/newer/different/potentially faster parts.