1 Question - What's Going on With 27.5+?

Jul 12, 2017 at 13:42
by Mike Kazimer  
1 Question


When 27.5+ bikes first began to emerge the mountain bike industry's hype machine went into overdrive, and no matter where you turned there were articles and advertisements heralding the arrival of “the next big thing.” The funny thing was, it had never seemed like there was much consumer demand for wider rims shod with not-quite-fat-bike sized rubber. After all, consumers' heads were still spinning from the instruction of Boost spacing – adding what seemed like another new wheelsize into the mix didn't do much to help matters.

Plus seemed to pop up from nowhere, and countless companies hopped on board, likely driven in part by the fear of being left behind. Two years later, it seems as if the pendulum has begun to swing back, and Plus bikes are now positioned more as an option for hardtails or for intermediate riders looking for a more stable ride rather than being the “best of both worlds.”

The introduction of wider tires and rims hasn't been for naught, though; if you look around at what's being spec'd on 'regular' bikes these days you'll see more 2.4” and 2.5” tires than ever before, and 2.6” tires are are also becoming increasingly common. Plus seems to have served as the bridge that spanned the gap between 27.5” and 29” wheeled bikes, and while the spotlight may have shifted its focus, what's left is a market that's chock full of bikes with good tire clearance and a large range of wide, aggressive tread patterns to go with them. To dive deeper into the topic, I reached out to a selection of industry insiders and ask them to for their thoughts about what the future holds for 27.5+.







Julian Wagner – Scott Sports, Bike Marketing


bigquotesThe hype being gone means that in the industry, it has more or less become a norm. Does a wide tire now need a name like “Plus?” Probably not. Originally around the 3.0-3.25” mark, when these started surfacing it was a drastically larger size that what was commonly “acceptable” for an MTB tire at the time – hence the need for a “name.” However, we think it is more important nowadays to talk about actual tire width in mm instead of tire size, as now every brand’s actual width in mm relative to their “size” is different.

In general, we’ve found that for a large percentage of consumers, a wider tire on a trail bike will be beneficial. With advancements in tire manufacturing, and with larger rim profiles, we think the benefit for most is pretty evident, and it seems the market is responding accordingly. In the past, we never had larger than a 2.8” on our bikes. But that 2.8” was much larger than what we are currently putting on our bikes- perhaps too large looking back. Often times technology comes out at an extreme, and over time settles into a sweet spot. Our trail bike segment includes bike models designed to comfortably fit anything in the 63mm plus or minus 2mm zone (with a 30mm inner width rim), as we think for these bikes’ intended use, this is that sweet spot. In this range, for example, you have a 2.5” Minion DHF WT, a 2.8” Recon, a 2.6” Nobby Nic and even a 2.6” Magic Mary.

Beyond trail bikes, will we see larger tires in racing? Perhaps. We do know that guys in many disciplines, Nino for instance, are testing wider and wider tires and liking it. However, this happening depends on a few factors moving forward, most notably tire design and quality.




Bobby Brown – Maxxis Tires, Marketing Specialist


bigquotesThe plus bike platform is definitely not going anywhere but, like many aspects of this industry, it’s very regionally focused. We have found from speaking with riders and OE partners all over the country and around the world that some markets have been quick to adopt the plus bike platform, while others prefer narrower tires for slotting through rock notches and other precision handling maneuvers. In particular, we are finding that markets with a lot of loose-over-hard or rough-but-not-sharp terrain are drawn to the plus platform due to these tires’ capacity for handling marbles, goatheads, roots, and other bumpy terrain. And then you have Aggy, who had been bugging us to make true 2.8” Minions for years (not your father’s 26x2.7 DHF), running them at the most recent Rampage at the first opportunity.

Fat bike experimentation led to plus bikes, which then fueled a general trend toward trail riders and even XC racers moving to wider and wider tires. Luckily, many of the technological advancements toward lighter rims and tires allowed both to grow together without the end user hanging much extra weight onto their bike, compared to the amount of extra confidence gained with a wider rim and tire setup. We will continue to see bikes that serve dual-duty as 27.5+/29 or 26+/27.5. These bikes are perfect for riders who may want to have both a party-pace wheelset and a race wheelset. These bikes also allow for a rider’s skills to develop over time.

As frame design has evolved, we’ve seen that plus tires perform better on shorter travel bikes, allowing ride quality and confidence-inspiring performance similar to that of a longer-legged bike. As a tire manufacturer, we can add technologies to our tires to alter the dampening characteristics of the carcass, but at the end of the day, your suspension will do a much better job of managing chassis stability following the initial bump force than the tires. Ultimately, wider tires are better for heavier loads, and we expect to see many more e-bikes and bikepacking bikes adopt the platform as compared to longer travel trail and enduro bikes. 






Clayton Wangbichler – WTB, Public Relations and Content Editor


bigquotesIt makes sense that hype around plus-bikes is diminishing as new waves of enticing products roll in. Something can only be 'the next big thing' while it's new and innovative. Dropper posts were "the next big thing" when they first came out, but now they're simply dropper posts. We don't discount their relevance simply because they're not the new, hot shit. New is where the hype will always be (enter aggressive long-travel 29ers in 2017). Nobody gets excited about a company coming out with a plus-size bike, because they expect it rather than being awed by and spreading buzz about it.

Simply put, for something to last through a few years in the bike industry and still have demand (offerings from nearly every bike manufacturer is the proof here), there must be something about it that riders desire and are wanting more of. That may not mean it's for every person or that it'll be the new norm for folks to fall upon, but it seems to be sticking around for a reason. Some folks have truly found increased traction and confidence with higher volume and a larger contact patch. Plus-size tires have also earned a diehard following among bikepackers for the added traction and forgiveness over varied terrain throughout long days/weeks/months in the saddle. Bikepackers will be reaping the benefits of plus-size tires for years and years and years to come. We at WTB have learned a lot since we introduced the first 27.5+ tire three years ago and we'll continue to refine our approach to plus-size tires in the same way and momentum that we do on our traditional 2.2-2.5 tires. For example, minimizing weight was a major focus when introducing the first plus-size tires, but we've realized that a more supportive (aka less squirmy) and durable casing dramatically improves the overall ride quality compared to the weight benefits of a comparably lighter plus-size tire.

Opinions aside, numbers speak louder than words. Our sales of plus-size tires (2.8+) and rims (i35 and greater) have doubled since last season. One-third of our AFM rims sales are in the plus-size range as well. Don't forget about Road Plus as well, which is proving that many folks are wanting more volume on bikes of every discipline. Plus-size tires may eventually see a drop in interest, only time will tell, but it certainly hasn't happened in 2017 and we don't expect it to throughout 2018 either. We won't likely see them on the bikes that end up leaned against podiums, nor do we suggest that they're the ideal tire width range for truly aggressive riding, which is far different from the category of riding with aggressive intent. Our riding community as a whole determines what stays and goes, not the smaller niches that we often focus on.







Travis Ott – Trek Bicycles, MTB Brand Manager


bigquotesThe funny thing about hype is that it doesn’t always have a direct correlation to reality. Mid-fat tires were never going to replace 2.3-2.4” tires. Trek took a measured approach to 27.5+ tires and that proved to be the right approach. There’s no denying the extra traction and confidence mid-fat tires provide riders. As such, mid-fat tires have found their place on electric-assist mountain bikes, select full suspension trail bikes, and trail hardtails. We think these categories will continue to be viable categories for 27.5+.






Don Palermini – Santa Cruz Bicycles, North American Marketing Manager


bigquotesPlus is a pretty interesting topic...early on the Hightower booked in Plus configurations at a much higher ratio than we thought it would--it was close to 50/50 at the start. At the time I think there was a lot of hype and interest about the tire size and lots of people were "Plus curious," if you will. With the Hightower being truly convertible to 29 with its hi/lo flip chip, I think most people felt it was pretty low risk--if they didn't like it, going 29 was just a matter of getting another wheelset.

Of late, most of our Hightowers are selling as 29ers straight out of the shop. I think most riders are choosing the speed and responsiveness of 29 over the extra grip and cush of Plus. Anecdotally we hear from a fair number of riders who go back and forth depending on conditions--some like the extra confidence of Plus when things get blown out and dry, but ride 29 when trail conditions are good. We also hear from riders who use Plus in winter conditions.

Personally, I made it a point to spend time on both wheel configurations and I found things to like about it either way. Ultimately, I find that 29 suits most of the riding I like to do best, but I like having the option to go Plus if I get a wild hair and want to ride somewhere loose and sandy. We also offer the shorter travel Tallboy and Juliana Joplin in 29 or 27.5+, and for the Tallboy, about 90 percent of them sell as 29ers. The Joplin--a women's bike which shares the same chassis with a slightly different component spec--has booked as a Plus bike at a higher percentage. But even there, we're mostly selling it as a 29er.

On the hardtail side of things, our latest Chameleon is sold as a Plus bike about 75% of the time, which makes sense on a number of levels--it helps take the edge off the trail, and newer riders tend to buy that bike, and I think they feel more confident on Plus. It definitely seems like hardtails are a more viable platform for Plus long-term.

Since Plus debuted we've seen some tire development, but there's still a struggle between weight, durability and tread that probably needs some more work. We've also seen the advent of "wide trail" that almost gets you there with widths up to 2.6-inches and less of the other issues, which probably takes away some of Plus' fire power. 







Sean Estes – Specialized Bicycles, Global PR Manager


bigquotesWe believe in the benefits of wide, large-volume tires; as evidenced by the fact we were early adopters and one of the first to offer what we called “6fattie” (which I admit was a pretty corny play on words. But hey, it was still better than our “Cobble Gobbler” seatpost, right?!) Because we knew riders might be reluctant to try a new standard – especially if it came with a weight penalty – our goal was to keep the system weight in line with current 29x2.3” offerings. This meant our first gen of 650x3.0” tires were not as durable as our current offerings, which weigh a hundred or so grams more but offer greatly improved puncture protection and sidewall support.

Anyway, getting back to the original question… I don’t know if I’d go so far as to say the hype has diminished, it’s probably more accurate to say that the Plus trend has established that large volume is a good thing, which paved the way for the now extremely popular 2.6 & 2.8” tires that we are seeing on so many 650 bikes, and the 2.5” and larger tires we are seeing on 29ers as well. Long live large volume!






422 Comments

  • + 386
 Dear Pinkbike, You're part of the problem, and partially to blame for all this marketing BS.
  • + 57
 So true. Mike should've presented it like that in his opening paragraph, instead of pretending like PB is just a bystander observing
  • + 57
 What is the "problem"?
  • + 71
 Have people lost the ability to filter these days?

Filter out the hype and marketing BS I see some real benefits to Plus (or just slightly wider tyres if you don't want to give it a name). It's the reason Surly invented them in the first place.
  • + 36
 Tell me more about the "problem". Reading the article, it seems like they've developed a good solution for some riders yet the "old" size never went away. Nothing bad about more options, right? Also, if PB has influence then we have it too. If component manufacturers are going to read PB they'll probably read the comment section too. This is actually one of the reasons I visit PB. To excert my influence and hope they'll continue to make spares and commponents for the legacy stuff I'm running Wink .
  • + 194
 Dear @gonecoastal, what exactly is the problem? Sure, we've covered 27.5+ bikes, and even reviewed a few of them, clearly stating the pros and cons. Any why not? If it's new(ish) and has the potential to be useful for Pinkbike readers, we're going to check it out. I've personally never been that sold on 27.5+, but that's due to where I live and my own riding style. That's the cool thing about mountain biking - there are tons of niches, and it's a matter of finding what works best for you.
  • + 10
 @FuzzyL: now you're just being silly. How many of the new standards are solutions to problems created by new standards to solve problems created by new standards created to solve problems crea......... Etc etc

And how many of these new standards are ACTUALLY benifittial to riding......
Or just making bikes dedicated to proprietary systems so you can't cross from one companies parts to another, one bike to another?

Sure there have been massive improvements since the days of rim brakes an square taper BB axles, threaded one inch H'sets but, your comment is null and void
  • + 7
 @nojzilla: I do think the industry gets together every now and then to match standards whenever they can. Not always, for sure. When Fox came with 100x15 and Shimano made the hub to match it, the rest of the industry must have been wondering where that came from. But the ISIS bb, the ISCG05 chain guide mount, the IS disc brake standard, that Cane Creek headset qualification and even the metric shock standard were actually collaborative efforts by several companies. Which makes sense as at the end of the day (luckily) most bicycles are assemblies of components from different manufacturers. If something is too rare (proprietary etc) chances are consumers will avoid it as they want flexibilty. Look at what we had in the past. Boxxer disc brake mounts, four or five bolt disc brake rotor mounts... It will sort itself out eventually. We vote with our wallet. But we also vote differently so the market will probably remain diverse.
  • + 38
 @mikekazimer:
Dear Mike, too many niches, too many new standards in a very few years!! No industry is doing this (and for a good reason!). How many wheels sizes have been "invented" for the road bikes since they started? In MTB I am almost suggested to change wheels every 100 m. the terrain changes. Such a diversification, is good for your writing but both the riders and the industry are in a trap they created.
  • + 68
 They should have asked Bike shops owners instead of these guys . Each one of them said something that favors their brand over the others. We are sitting on about 20 of these bikes which are going back to the manufacturer because lack of interest
  • + 47
 The problem is, too many f*cking sizes of everything! Is anyone having more fun on any bike than the original mountain bikers did on the klunkers?

No. It's the same fun.

We should have stuck with 26".

All these new sizes just serve to elevate prices.

Choice is nice, but the fun is the same fun. I would be happy to have the same fun on a 26er, especially if the price was half of what they're currently charging for bikes.

I like new tech, but I don't like iterative improvements enough to feel they are worth the money. Tooling costs money. Marketing costs money. This plus BS, among other things, is affecting pricing.

The fun is the same fun. Put the brakes on the worthless developments, please! Focus on driving prices down, and service intervals up!
  • + 10
 @vinay: Oh Totally, I remember when BMX was going through the euro BB phase an Industry leaders got together to figure out press fit Mid BB's. one thing I probably didnt make in my comment very well is that I have three bikes 4X, trail HT an DH an apart from the obvious like the 150 rear wheel an BB/crank axle widths. (lets say) 90% of parts are interchangable between bikes.
Those days coming to an end isnt gonna be good for consumers, Or small parts companies that now have to tool/work in countless standards. Especialy when the just make thier product work with multiple standards with converters, sometimes negating the suposed benifits of said standard coughBoostcough!pluscough! Wink
  • + 7
 @nojzilla: luckily, hope tech and their ilk are keeping it real
  • + 2
 @jaame: YEP!! Smile
  • + 48
 @mikekazimer: You do nice reviews, but between them you post a lot of marketing stuff which is aimed to create a hype. Let's take an example: www.pinkbike.com/news/trek-presents-reaktiv-thru-shaft-technology.htm Have you ridden it? Does IT MAKE A DIFFERENCE compared to normal dmaper? We do not know, but there are a lot of claims in this article, signed by Paul Aston.
  • + 17
 @lkubica: ^^^^ Thisss.. and people are done with it.. 90% of the comments on pinkbike are about people done with the industry push of bullshit devellopments where we are not asking for... I heard nobody about stiffer wheels, sticky suspension, needing other axels... whatever man..
  • - 2
 I don't see any problem at all. I chose 29 over Plus on my '17 Fuel, but I will be getting a Plus wheelset eventually, most likely when I get another bike for my youngest child who will be my height within 12 mos. My plan is to get the SC Chameleon or similar bike and switch wheelsets for conditions. More traction/confidence is probably what developing riders need the most. This is why we have Boost.
  • + 10
 @enrico650: For sure! If Joe shopper walks into a bike shop and sees hardtail and f/s versions of 27.5" bikes, 29" bikes, and 27.5+ bikes, they won't feel great about the ability to choose the perfect bike for their riding niche, they'll get nervous about making the wrong $3000 decision and walk out of the store.
  • + 23
 LOL @ all these crotchety old people yelling "Get off my lawn!"
  • + 17
 @mikekazimer:
"The funny thing was, it had never seemed like there was much consumer demand for wider rims shod with not-quite-fat-bike sized rubber. After all, consumers' heads were still spinning from the instruction of Boost spacing – adding what seemed like another new wheelsize into the mix didn't do much to help matters."

There's the "problem" you guys speak of
  • + 28
 I'm appreciative of everything PB does for the community, but it'd be nice if we witnessed the industry getting called out a little more often, a la Dave Turner style
  • + 2
 @Mieszko42: what PB does for the community? I've always thought PB exists first and foremost to make money.
  • + 11
 @powderturns: sure, but what about buy/sell, forums, awareness, etc etc, surely I don't need to tell you
  • + 9
 I don't think there's a problem. That dudes ginger beard is amazing
  • + 4
 And by the way Mike, those comments aren't for you, they are for those brilliant guys shown above - if they ever bother!!
  • - 4
flag Jackson900 (Jul 20, 2017 at 6:43) (Below Threshold)
 @mikekazimer: good recovery
  • + 7
 @nojzilla: On the other hand you can probably get a smoking deal on a 2012 26" specialized right now and you probably aren't riding that bike.
  • + 4
 @enrico650: Like the article said, it tends to vary regionally. In Utah our Plus MTBs are flying out the door.
  • + 9
 @RoboDuck: nope, but, I did a half price deal on my new DH frame. A commy V3 Park... 26....
2015 frame bought in November 2016,

I just today got some 2016 IXS DH pants for £19 reduced from £110.... Such a good deal I got two Smile

After years of bmx I can tell you The MTB industry is fkng crazy. Ridiculous mark ups? Yeah new standards every 5 fkng minutes will do that. But hey, keep buying in to the latest trends an overpriced bull, leaves more bargains for me
  • + 17
 Bitch bitch Moan. If you're happy on your 26" steel hardtail donkey then carry on.

I for one welcome new technology, options and progression in the sport.
  • - 4
flag MrLynch (Jul 20, 2017 at 7:48) (Below Threshold)
 @FuzzyL: Maybe the problem is too many options and not enough money? I dont see how having more choices is ever a bad thing!
  • + 7
 ride what you like. don't worry about what others ride (and talk about).
  • + 9
 @jaame: Mcdonalds should only have cheese burgers and drop the nuggets and the breakfast BS too.
Consumer wallets dictate the market, not the industry. Since day one there have always been people that bitch about everything new. If those people had their way we would all be on rim brake, full rigid single speed bikes with 26x1.8" tires.
  • - 10
flag krazieghost (Jul 20, 2017 at 7:55) (Below Threshold)
 @gonecoastal youre ignorant. please go start your own bike website
  • - 7
flag MrLynch (Jul 20, 2017 at 7:57) (Below Threshold)
 @Thustlewhumber: Its actually poor young people that are upset because they can only afford used 26" parts and those are running out now that people have moved on to better things. Now they have to go mow lawns and ask grandma for birthday money so they can get a new frame to fit all they fancy new standards only people with jobs can afford.
  • + 1
 @bikegreece: I agree with you 100%. I believe pinkbike would try to sell dirt to their dead grandmother to cover in the hole if they thought they could make a profit from it.
  • + 8
 Pinkbike is only the problem for those dumb enough to believe the smack hype that they push. The first problem is 99% of you ride for enjoyment or not doing it for a paycheck. Therefore your ride should be spect for comfort and enjoyment. No blistering fast ride is enjoyable to be stuck on all day long. You sacrifice comfort for speed always.
  • + 4
 @jaame: I love many disciplines of non-motorized cycling, and could say that I am having more fun these days on modern larger wheeled bikes than I did on a 26" Mabey if I had never tasted the kool-aid of how far the advancement has come I wouldn't be selling my beloved SX trail I never thought I would part with. But the reality is that better bikes have ramped up my progression, and it is quite fun to ride new lines I have been looking at for years. Options are nice, and 3" tires came out over 10 years ago. Chonky13
  • + 30
 @mikekazimer: I believe the problem is readers are fed up with Ever Changing standards. Extremely overpriced products. Poor overall longevity for cost of item. Items being outdated faster than my new pc. Pinkbike constantly throwing words around such as Game Changer and must have. A must-have is a reasonably priced mountain bike that you can depend on to go out on a ride and not leave you stranded. Then have enough money left over to make your mortgage payment car payment and fill your tank up with gas to get to the bike trail.
  • + 3
 Yep! The idea that a 2.8-3.0 tire would work for everybody was a huge marketing scam. Sure, large tires could have a place (at least until you point uphill) but the only result of the 27.5+ debacle was to, yet again, make any frame on the market loose 50% of its value overnight.

Thank you once again for that!!!!
  • + 9
 @jaame: I'm having a lot more fun on modern bikes. Everything about them is so much better than it used to be. I stuck with a 26" for a very long time and the first time I jumped on a modern geo 27.5" bike was a night and day difference.

That single ride made me completely obsessed with biking when it used to be just another outdoor hobby of mine. Now it is the only thing I want to do.

You will always have options. You don't have to buy plus bikes or whatever, but when manufacturers try changing things instead of STAGNATING, we end up with better gear that results in funner rides and I am all about having fun on my bike.
  • + 2
 @IronBender: everyone looks at the past with rose-tinted glasses
  • + 2
 @jaame: #26aintdead
  • + 4
 @IronBender: WOW this place looks like a political debate!
  • + 10
 @UserNumberTwo: Except we are discussing important shit here.
  • + 4
 The SC guy is bang on. I run 650b 2.8" with 38mm ID rims when it's loose and blown out and it's miles faster than 29" 2.3" on the same bike.
  • + 1
 @fartymarty:

Why yes, yes they have.
  • + 11
 The question is....what did you found wrong with 26?
  • + 8
 @MrLynch:not even close to reality there buddy. 32 years old and all my bikes are 26" because there is better things in life to spend money on then buying each bike tend
  • + 19
 @jaame:
I’m actually having way more fun then I used to and I credit the technology upgrades for being a major part of that.

Where I live a lot of the best trails are pedal access, so 10 years ago I either had to choose between pushing a big heavy downhill bike up the mountain to shred my favorite trails or pedal up an under gunned trail bike that was going to get beaten up and break.

Thanks to the progress the bike industry has made, I can now easily pedal up a trail shredding machine and bomb down the hill faster than I ever could with a much lower chance of anything breaking. I call that some pretty amazing progress and I also think its way more fun.

Yeah, I’m not a big fan of how they are progressing at such an incremental rate that your new bike is out dated mere months after you bought it, but my approach is to buy a bike with all the latest and greatest technology, ride it like it’s stolen for 3 or 4 years and then buy the new latest and greatest. I make a point of not getting too worked up about what the new tech is out until I’m actually ready to buy a bike and I just enjoy what I am currently riding.

As for your complaints of cost. If you actually compare a high end bike from 10 years ago to a lower end bike now, the lower end bike is much cheaper and far more capable. We are getting way more value than we ever have. Yes, if you want the best possible bike they have gone stupid expensive, but nobody said you have to buy the absolute best bike. The low end to mid-range bikes coming out these days are seriously impressive.
  • + 3
 @bikegreece: Never compare anything to the roadside...they are the most conservative side of cycling plus they have the UCI stifling any potential innovation...
  • + 2
 @jaame: You don't HAVE to buy a new bike every time they come up with something new. Buy a used bike, or just keep riding your 26" bike that you love so much. If you don't think these bikes are more fun don't buy one. Consumers have more choices. And bikes like Trek's Fuel and Santa Cruz's Hightower/Tallboy let you CHOOSE the size wheel you want to ride. Buy the 27.5+ and realized you hate pedaling all of that rubber up a hill? Switch the bike over to a different wheel size. And you can even change the geometry of the bike so that it stays consistent with different wheel sizes.

Yes, standards change, but for the better. Without progress companies would just be selling the exact same bike for 15 years.
  • + 3
 @enrico650: I think you would see things differ depending on shop... we sell a TON of plus bikes - seems like many older riders, newer riders, and women (not being sexist, this is just a statement of fact) are drawn to their ride. We have a demo fleet that includes top-of-the-line plus and "standard tire" bikes, and a lot of people are liking the plus. Of course, most guys who like to ride even somewhat "hard" won't touch them. My 59 year old father had no interest in them when I brought up the possibility for a new bike for him - he's an experienced rider but doesn't exactly "shred", but the imprecise, "dumbed-down" feeling of plus was not something he thought he would enjoy. I think it's cool that we are starting to have a spectrum of tire options (i.e. frames that fit 29 and 27.5+, frames that fit "up to 2.8", etc), but @jaame is right - it's only simple economics that increasing product variance will also increase cost. If we all rode 1 type of bike with one frame size and a single component option for each part, prices would be insanely low. That's no fun though, right?
  • + 1
 So, I understand your concern about marketing BS in relation to hubs standards and BB standards always changing and preventing us from upgrading a frame without having to buy an entire new build. I don't see how the industry playing with tire volume is marketing BS. As a side note, I have ridden a few 650b+ bikes. They aren't for me, but I see the market for them.
  • + 3
 @danny: Agreed. It's the same for me too. I can now ride DH trails on a 29HT and not die. I used to pedal a 40lb+ monster around just to enjoy the DH but can now do it on a 30lb HT and still have as much if not more fun.

Change is good, you just need to pick what is right for you and spend your money wisely. There is a lot of good stuff at reasonable prices if you don't mind not having the bling factor.
  • + 1
 Balloon-tire beach cruisers have been around for a minute.
  • + 4
 @mikekazimer: I think a big part of whining about "new standards" is that mtb seems to be obsessed with what's new and "cool". Ive actually seen riders ( usually younger with daddy likely funding their carbon super bikes) actually heckle riders with older bikes or kit that isn't currently accepted as "cool".
It's really time for everyone just to be happy and ride the stuff they have until it's clapped out instead of keeping up with the trends.
  • + 7
 @Dustfarter: I would punch the spoikt little c*nt in the face if the heckled me about my bike.
  • + 6
 What if I told you, you didn't have to buy what they publish?

It's only a scam if you participate in it, so literally, go out and buy the bike you want, not the one you feel someone is telling you to want.
  • + 0
 @bikegreece:

How much have the roads that road cyclists ride changed since they started? No wonder they don't necessitate big technology changes.

How about mountain bikes? It is a much newer sport and the trails/terrain and riding styles have advanced rapidly over the last 15-20 years. A lot of riders are demanding more and different things than they were a few years back.
  • + 2
 All I can hear is Grandpa Simpson saying "Bitch, bitch, bitch!"
  • + 5
 Isn't one of PB's purposes to keep us up to date on whats happening in the industry? I get how new standards are annoying etc. but like others have said we vote with our wallets. If you don't like it, don't buy it. Let these guys do their jobs and keep giving us great content for free!
  • + 1
 @Mieszko42: they're selling ads against all those things (as opposed to, say, Craigslist). Sure they're donating some of their profits for advocacy, and they're certainly not actively destroying biking and bike culture. You're making them out to be some altruistic force we couldn't do without. I don't hate PB- I like the site, but we'd be fine if PB disappeared. Vital, nsmb, dirt, etc would pick up the slack.
  • + 1
 @RoboDuck: I'll sell you mine...
  • + 1
 FOFN Filter.out.fake.news
  • + 4
 @nojzilla: I think you got that wrong.

The "problems" are not created by new standards, but by what the new technology - in some cases enabled by the new standards - allows you to do with a bike. Ten years ago, nobody in their right mind would have tried to spend a day in the bike park on a 29er trail bike with a carbon frame and carbon rims. Now, I see people do that ever more frequently, and in most cases, they easily get away with it. Because bikes are still improving that much.

After carbon frames got so much stiffer at the same weight, and after through axles allowed for much less torsion than quick releases used to, and after 1* drive trains with a sufficient range for mountain biking made it possible to build 29er frames with shorter chainstays than what most 26" bikes used to have, thereby actually making them fun to ride, you might find, that a need arises to make those larger wheels a little stiffer, hopefully without adding weight to the rotating mass, and then you might end up designing a wider hub...

Not every new idea works out in the end, but that never was the case, and the day the bike industry stops trying new things, to me, will be a sad day. Bikers, like regular people, are on the most part strictly conservative. "Never change a running system" is one way of saying that. There's good reason to stick with what worked in the past. But ultimately that approach doesn't allow for any progress.
  • + 4
 "should have stuck with 26"". NO! I have a 2011 26er Fuel and a 2017 Fuel 29er. If you rode both back-to-back you would retract that statement immediately. The 29er trounces the 26er in every single way. It's far superior. Should we have stuck with v-brakes too? C'mon dude.
  • + 8
 I guess what one needs to compare is a bike with the same wheelsize from the same era. Compare a BTR Ranger in 26", 27.5" and 29". Comparing a '11 bike to a '17 bike (the Trek Fuel you mention) isn't quite fair.
  • + 0
 @vinay: I had a 2016 Fuel 27.5 and I now have a 2017 Fuel 29. The 29 is faster and just as much fun.
  • + 1
 @vinay: But it's the only way to go. Any bike that allows you to ride three different wheel sizes will have to make some compromises, therefore not getting the most out of one, two, or even all three sizes, so you still won't be able to make a fair comparison.

Only a bike built around one particular wheel size can use all of its advantages.

People seem to think, that a big difference should be noticable right the moment someone makes one change to an existing bike, or else that change is not a good one.

But that's not the way it works, especially if most basic advancements have already been made.

The first disk brakes performed horribly, made worse by forks and frames that just had some tabs put on them, without any further design changes. Luckily, people stuck with it and incrementally changed everything around them, in the end making bikes that were better than they ever could have been with a rim brake.
  • + 4
 @FuzzyL: Sorry for the confusion.

Order a BTR Ranger 26". Use 26" wheels, 26" forks.
Order a BTR Ranger 27.5". Use 27.5" wheels, 27.5" forks.
Order a BTR Ranger 29". Use 29" wheels, 29" forks.
Stans Flow and Manitou Mattoc may offer these in all variations.

Pay.
Ride.
Compare.
  • + 4
 I've got a 27.5 Nomad C. Yes I know, that makes me a bit of a hypocrite. It cost me an arm and a leg, even with the second hand frame and fork. I joked to a mate afyer the first race I did on it. I sold three bikes to get it, and it is unquestionably the best bike I have ever had... but it wasn't really worth the money. I didn't have mote fun on it, but it did give any lesser bike that I might happen to get on an instant fun factor downgrade.

I know bikes now are great but certainly most of us are motivated to change by fashion and keeping up with the Joneses more than anything.

Wholesale changes made since 2010 have been great, but there have been a lot more BS changes. Front axles, anyone? Guess what, we're all going to be back on 20mm in 2020. Well I already am because I have a Fox 36 so I never had a 15mm, but you get my point.

Bikes are more expensive than they should be, because there are too many people in the game selling the same thing, then making something different but not better just to make sales. In a blind test, no normal person could tell the difference between 15mm, 20mm, 15mm boost, 20mm boost axles. So why do they exist? Is it simply to keep the till turning over?
  • + 2
 Found this in my dictionary of synonyms:

"the mountain bike industry's hype machine" aka "pinkbike"
  • + 2
 @jaame: I hate to be the one to point this out. People are stupid enough to pay 10 to $15,000 for a complete mountain bike. There will always be someone there to sell it to them.
  • + 1
 @properp: I'd say some people are LUCKY enough to buy a $10k+ bike. Not any different than buying a $80k BMW over a $25k VW. If you have the means why not.
  • + 1
 @fartymarty: more like filter out what they say from what they think.....
  • + 0
 @MrLynch: If you could buy that 80k BMW but go for the 25k VW, you've got 55k more to spend on a bike. That's a wise choice I'd say. Get a robotbike.co bike and use the change for trips. Heck, get two of those bikes. One for 26" wheels, the other for 27.5+ and please report back. You don't need that BMW.
  • + 2
 That sounds so perfect
  • + 3
 @MrLynch: "Consumer wallets dictate the market, not the industry" This is a half truth. Many new comers to MTB just are ignorant to the hoopla going on in this industry. And those in the know, many just don't want to be left holding the bag on something that they are fearful is going to be obsolete in 2 years. The truth is many of these "standard changes" and the like are more of a money grab and marketing BS than real progression.
  • + 2
 @deadtime: your comparing geometry from bikes 6 years apart, maybe geometry has had more influence on ride quality than rim size?
  • + 1
 @vinay: Sorry, I'm not to familiar with the BTR portfolio, thought they were offering basically the same frame for three wheelsizes.

But again, your "experiment" will not work. Based on one frame you can not reach a conclusion about wheelsizes. To do that, you would have to assume, that BTR compensates for the different wheel sizes in excatly the perfect way. For example, that it is correct to compensate for the different offset in the forks by making the head angle half a degree steeper, etc.

But even if we assume, BTR found the perfect geometry for each wheel size, we would still only be able to say, which wheel size works best (and we would have to define what "best" in this context means) for the niche of heavy long travel hardtails.

Bikes keep getting better all the time. And as I tried to lay out before, it is not really possible to isolate one factor from the equation.
  • - 1
 @mikekazimer: the problem is the industries total abandonment of 26" and forcing people to spend $3k+ just to keep up with the ever changing standards. Why dont you get that?
  • + 1
 @makkman: Not really. There are plenty of 142mm rear bikes out there and why not put your 26" in a 275 frame? The difference is about half an inch on radius so you'll get a nice low BB. Plus no one is forcing you to get rid of your old bike.
  • + 0
 @fartymarty: I think the point is his 26" bike is now worth pennies.
  • + 2
 @jclnv: You'd think some very average motherf*cker would just find the optimal tire diameter for a bike, and everyone would just use that tire size! I don't want my only tire supplier to be a expensive niche vendor in Japan because everyone prefers a slightly different tire size. It's not women's clothing.
  • + 0
 I've said it before on here that 650b wasn't needed. It's too close to 26" for it to be worth it. 29" offered something totally different and it was cool to have a 26" and a 29". That said if they went with a true 28" instead of 650b it might have killed 26" and 29".

Maybe that'll be the 2022 model year?
  • + 3
 www.pinkbike.com/photo/14971407
Pinkbike home of the fake news
  • + 0
 @properp: One Million Reputation points for you!
  • + 1
 @jclnv: 28" already exists! Any 650b 2.6 tire measures more than 28" in diameter. This is why calling wheels 26" when they actually measure 22" (559mm) or 275" when they measure 23" (584mm) or 29" when they measure 24.5" (622mm) is stupid!
  • + 2
 @SintraFreeride: maybe they are following the lumber industry where a 2x4 is 1.5x3.5
  • + 1
 @properp: shit that's small. Our 4x2" (100x50mm) is 95x47mm once planed.
  • + 1
 @SintraFreeride: 275x2.6 is getting very close to being a Plus tyre and you know how no one on PB likes Plus tyres.

I think you are right tho. It's probably a bery good size.
  • + 1
 @fartymarty: I checked Maxxis site the other day 27.5x2.6 WT is a massive ETTRO width.
Smart play on the industry by slowly changing the "plus" to "WT".
  • + 1
 @gonecoastal: Yeah the "Plus" thing did not go down well at all. Same with Boost. Give it a name and people have something to hate. As you say smart play going to WT

I can't wait till Maxxis make a 29x2.6 Minion.
  • + 1
 @fartymarty: I guess it just goes to show Everyone likes to exaggerate the size of their wood.
  • + 2
 @properp: indeed.
  • + 265
 So from a different industry angle (Superstar Components), ie the aftermarket wheel retailer, we have had pretty much no interest in 27+ wheels.

It was a classic bike industry "whats next years big thing", which works as follows (feel free to drop in any niche):

1- Niche brand wants something new and niche to make them stand out from the gazillion other people selling the same stuff to the same people. they sell tiny numbers
2- Big brands product managers want a piece of the action so they launch a range of new products and get a load made
3- Big brands flood the front of their Eurobike stand with these "cool must have products"
4- Big brands spend a fortune on marketing them, and cant back down as they are upto their eyeballs in invoices and stock on the water.
5- The media start making up gibberish about how "lifechanging" they are
6- Bikeshops tell their supplier salesman to get stuffed over stocking this years wonder machine after getting shafted with fatbikes and all the other niches which never came to anything.
7- Bikeforums go wild with the nichemongers creaming themselves over their niche purchase being "lifechanging" to justify dropping ££££ on a weird bike which is not quite as good as a normal bike. The 3 people who bought them keep repeating like a stuck record so it sounds like lots of people have them..
8- 99.87% of people carry on buying normal bikes
9- The shops who are suckered into buying them bin them out at a loss to get rid
10- Bike companies find out nobody bought the things and bin them off to make space for the next "EPIC PRODUCT"
11- 99.88% of people carry on buying normal stuff
12- Nichemongers windge about how you cant get spares for their weirdass heap o junk
13- Return to point 1

My feelings on 27+:
- i had conversations with rim manufacturers in taiwan where they basically were pissed off at spending a fortune on tooling for all these "must have" new rims, and nobody bought them and the ones who did massively cut their orders at the last minute!
- you get a slightly bigger tyre which makes naff all difference
- your rims and tyres now have their own gravity field
- your bike now rides like a slow bag o crap
- you get a warm glow that everyone envies your ego chariot of the latest nicheness
- you realise your wrong in so many ways
- you fit normal wheels and all is good again

To all the people who like 27+, at least it will get you fit dragging around all that junk.

Ta, Superstar Components chief cynic
  • + 25
 Telling it like it is..
  • - 82
flag Thustlewhumber (Jul 20, 2017 at 5:11) (Below Threshold)
 You have done your company a great disservice by posting this.
  • + 40
 Oh my Gawd, upvote this up into the body of the article!
  • + 18
 Epic, bang on the money there!

Id put a fiver on all these new long travel enduro 29" bikes that are popping up will go back to 650b in a few years too...
  • + 22
 Jesus I like this guy,hits the nail on the head not the mumbo jumbo marketing crap from the big guys, who won't say shit when they have a mouth full of it.

27+ is what % of the market maybe 5% and they dumped the shit on us before it was tested and sorted out.

I think all marketing guys should be made to ride 27+ up a 5 mile climb and then a fast rocky tech down, and see how they feel about it.

Ta Ta
  • + 13
 Can't prop this enough.
  • + 9
 @Thustlewhumber: oh has he? Sorry, need to go, place an order in the UK Wink
  • - 22
flag Racer951 (Jul 20, 2017 at 6:07) (Below Threshold)
 The problem (however much it may be correct in your perspective) is that you dont lead / alter trends in the bike industry or the direction in which it moves - your company just provides cheap aftermarket products to replace items on bikes that industry 'leaders' sell to consumers.

If bike companies decide to push 27.5+ and remove much of their 27.5 range you will have to respond and start to supply 27.5+ wheelsets, however much you may dislike them personally (do you even ride a bike? - where does that come from?) - Your opinion has no effect on the industry, you are a low tier supplier and not in a position to dictate trends like the large brands do - Thats the truth - We will ride what the big companies decide we should, thats why 27.5 became a thing in the first place.

Your 99% of people carry on riding 'normal bikes' is complete crap - why is there 29" and 27.5" options in that case - 29" was hardly considered 'normal' for a long time.

You do make yourself look like a bit of an arse when you criticise potential customers who use 27.5+ in the manner you have above too - but from what I have seen you are happy to be publicly rude to your customers in responses online and on forums so I suppose thats what is expected.

Will this come round and bite you in the ass if 27.5+ becomes the 'norm' - or will you still refuse to supply them because of your own opinions?
  • + 4
 ...and that is why i have a pair of your wheels! Cheers SuperstarComponents!
  • + 47
 @Racer951: @Racer951: You may not have noticed this was tongue in cheek.... you may even be falling into point 7 a bit.

Yes your correct that we don't set the agenda of the bike business but that wasn't my point. My point was that these big companies and their marketing machine are "telling you what to think" even when in the background of the industry they cant even give away these "hot" products. They have to keep reinforcing that they are great to get rid of them, they cant back down even if the new product is a complete dead dog.

These hype products get 99% of the media yet sell 0.1% of the market turnover.

I have not defined normal bikes, by that i mean everything else that isn't hype and people actually buy! be it 29/650 or dare i say it 26" (which we sell loads of even though its apparently so dead according to the so called "industry hype experts")

All opinions listened to and valued, i just cant cope with spouting hype like the majority of brands are built on.

Ta, Superstar Components
  • - 46
flag utley06 (Jul 20, 2017 at 6:36) (Below Threshold)
 Superstar Components - huh, never heard of you....... Whelp, good luck on your next endeavor..
  • + 24
 This is the best comment I have ever read on any Pinkbike forum and makes me love my 26 so much more.
  • - 24
flag Racer951 (Jul 20, 2017 at 6:39) (Below Threshold)
 @SuperstarComponents: Thank you for replying to my post dispite it being a little scathing towards you....

I think the fact you still sell lots of 26" wheels is more an example of your place in the industry than the reality of the wheel size being dead though and entirely backs up my point.

At the moment (this may change in time, who knows) you fit into the 'budget replacement' end of things where people who cannot afford / do not want to afford a new bike will come to for parts to 'glam up' their bikes or make them more 'current' - thats why you are selling 26" wheels when there hasnt been a bike for sale with 26" wheels from a major manufacturer for years now, they certainly wont be for new builds.

As to me falling into 'point 7' - If you read my other post you will see I have brought the point forward that most new 'standards' and 'developments' over the years have been absolute tosh and nothing more than a marketing exercise to push sales but without that relentless drive from the bigger companies a business like yours would literally fail to exist, which is why I suggested alienating future potential 27.5+ customers in a somewhat smug manner is a bit silly.

A business like yours survives by essentially feeding off the back of constant industry movement.
  • + 14
 so what. My hardtail rides better with 27+ no matter from what ever industry angle you (want to) see it.
  • - 28
flag utley06 (Jul 20, 2017 at 6:45) (Below Threshold)
 @Racer951: excellent response to an arrogant bottom feeder trying to get recognized. Probably still upset that manufacturers of wider rims told him to piss off when they had larger orders to fill for legit companies. Superstar components?? Killer name brah!!!
  • + 24
 @Thustlewhumber: that's funny cos, superstar components just went UP a ton in my allready high opinion of them.
  • - 19
flag Racer951 (Jul 20, 2017 at 7:04) (Below Threshold)
 @nojzilla: Hey, being an an arrogant a*shole worked for trump with certain types of people too ;-)
  • + 5
 @Racer951: ha, yeah. We got our own version of drumpf here with brexit Frown
  • + 57
 @Racer951: I realise that our brand doesnt fit the image you have for yourself (hence as you say scathing replys to anything we post), but thats your personal preference. We come up against that all the time, but thats because your not our customer base and there nothing wrong with that either. not having a dig just simpily your not our slice of the pie becasue of your personal "value" choices on the fashion of our brand.

ive lost count of the conversations ive had where somebody says dont by X but buy Y, when it turns out to be the exact same thing but at twice the price. the difference brand allignment and hype. but if it makes you happy then go elsewhere and get what you want im not going to stop you. some people wear a t-shirt, some people pay 10 times the price for the same thing with a logo on as it makes them feel good. We sold a stem once for £13 which another brand sold for £50, difference was the sticker - hype or quality, its the same bloody thing!

The reason we sell lots of 26" is simple - theres loads of them out there! its got nothing to do with being a low end (apparantly) brand. Im not alienating potential 27+ customer, im just not interested in investing tends of thousands of pounds selling that product as the market is many times smaller than the hype makes out, infact almost non-existant.

This kinda supports my opinion that people have been blinded by the market hype...

Bearing in mind im basing this on over a decade of experience and we know from previous comments you have made on pinkbike that you have presumed alot of things (like that obviously our huge UK made range is all made in taiwan...). We can use that to validate whos opinion might be closer to the truth.

Lets hug and make up, i like a good discussion but lets keep things based on facts not presumptions.

Ta, Superstar Components
  • + 11
 @Thustlewhumber:

Thustleweiner, it's okay man. We know you're liking your 6fattie. Just keep rockin it.

For most of this audience, we like a company calling out the over-hyped b.s. in the industry. I see the merits, but not in normal trail bike applications which is what most of us do. And yes, I demoed a plus in Moab. Even there I'd take a two nine.

Also, my Stumpy two nine can beat up your 6fattie.
  • - 19
flag Racer951 (Jul 20, 2017 at 7:28) (Below Threshold)
 @SuperstarComponents: My opinion of Superstar is nothing to do with 'fashion' just my observation of how the owner has conducted himself (I assume yourself?) over the last 'decade' - Some people dont forget the long list of ways you have acted in very poor taste over the years - duplicate forum logins, slagging off competing products, small claims court action, rude responses on facebook and elsewhere etc.

Attempting to obtain some form of sense from your second paragraph - I am assuming you are saying people pay more for products you sell elsewhere because of a different logo, I did not in any way say that nor did I say online that your Uk products were actually made in Tawian - Infact if you look back at that converstation I was actually the person who said you were manufacturing in the UK - so you may want to check that!

All of that jibberish goes out of the window anyway - are you not making your 'own products' in the UK now? in which case how can they possibly be copies?

How on earth can you associate 26" wheels with current or 'high end' bikes? There are loads of old bikes knocking around that use 26" wheels - not new ones, you are selling wheels for budget builds or to update old bikes - how can you not see that, unless you are aware of a manufacturer selling a 26" wheel bike from the last 3-5 years that is?

I have based nothing on assumtion, its obvious what area of the market you occupy, if you are too blind to see that its your choice but you certainly are no Hope or similar - you sell to the low end of the market and I maintain the fact that what you sell is entirely dictated to you by larger companies in the industry.

I dont know why you take that as a criticism though - every business occupies a sector of the market and you are clearly doing what you do well, I can happily admit that, dont try to be something your not.
  • + 4
 I had a blast on my coil sprung 26er. Why? Because my plastic fantastic 27.5 super air endurbro bike brah needs new parts. I'll be ordering from SSC. Not because it's "cheap" but because its a bargin for quality bling. Remember this kids, its not how good you look when you ride but how good you look at the trailhead/liftline. Except for me, you cant see what brands I'm rocking cause its covered in dirt or I might just be faster than you, especially you plusers.
  • + 1
 @SuperstarComponents: On a different note, are you guys ever planning to get back to carbon wheels? I got a little advert for carbon 29er AM wheels with an order from you ages and ages ago, yet they've never materialised. What gives? You got me all excited for nothing!
  • + 1
 @WasatchEnduro: I demoed a plus there too, annoyingly sluggish.
  • + 5
 @WasatchEnduro: Are Plus bikes the best thing out there for every rider, obviously not. After almost 30 years of riding the Shore, my plus bike is the most fun of any bike I have ridden. It is the ultimate machine for steep Shore chunder. Would I take it to Whistler to rip the park? Probably not. Having ridden the Wasatch for 3 years during my U days, you're not riding anything like the burl we have here and I wouldn't have a Plus bike there.
  • + 3
 @Boardlife69: one of my favorite bikes of all time to this day is my 2007 aluminum Cannondale perp. Full coil all Mountain hooligan bike. Cane Creek double barrel coil with a RockShox totem coil. My coil Fork received multiple weekly beatings and worked flawlessly for 10 years.
  • + 1
 @properp: I still love and ride my Totems and DHXRC 4. That setup still rides like butter and is fun as hell despite the non modern geo and smaller wheel size.
  • + 14
 @Racer951:I have to apolagise here for the UK made comment, it was another user on the same thread i got mixed up with you, ive just re-read it all. My bad, i apolagise again.

Back to the conversation. Just because the bike has 26" doesnt mean its not high end, people keep bikes for a while and alot of people dont ditch it every year for the latest fashion. we support all the sizes and we sell cheap 650b and expensive 26", whatever the customer wants. Actually lots of eastern europe brands are still doing loads of 26", might not be the fashion here but over there it is. Your opinion of cheap is different to other people, and i work on the actual materials going into the product without worrying about the hype.

I just think its bonkers when people say a product is low end when literally the only difference is a sticker and a preconception.

On all the history your repeating - back in the day there were a bunch of people who twisted comments, made stuff up and basically were trying their hardest to do as much damage to the brand out of spite. Most of them had never used our products and were keyboard warriors repeating made up comments enough to make people believe it was true. Continues to this day, still doesn't make it all true though does it? The bottom line of it is I know what is true and everyone else read something on the internet which was way off the real truth (or was just made up rubbish), and then they carry on repeating it like its gospel. On the CCJ the guy took us to court and lost, then had to pay compensation to us. So yes we went to court but did absolutely nothing wrong, then was proved in court. So are you going to carry on insinuating we did something wrong now you actually know the truth?

Im quite happy with our position, obviously you dont know what we actually sell so you dont really know our actual position. It would shock you if you actually found out what we do in the background...

Ta, Superstar Components
  • + 3
 Just wait till Boost141 takes over.
  • + 1
 @kathwill:

Definitely true. I'm just not hardcore enough to ride the fatties. Touché.
  • + 8
 @Fix-the-Spade: We gave up on the carbon stuff as there are so many people selling open mould chinese stuff.

back in the day we invested a huge amount of money into tooling ($10,000 per size for the tool alone) to make a wide carbon rim which nobody but the likes of enve were making. We sold alot originally but then everyone started selling alibaba specials so it became a bit pointless.

People now expect either $1500 hype rims or $250 cheap rims and anything in the middle they say is a cheap rims which is a ripoff.

So we have invested in making higher quality custom aluminium rims instead, eg our Alpine30 which is custom made for ourselves to our design with really high end technical features and materials. Its a mavic crossmax type quality (or a bit better really) rim but at half the pricepoint. They are going down well and are a nice option which not many brands cover currently.

Ta, Superstar Components
  • + 3
 "our rims and tyres now have their own gravity field"

lol, This made me spit out my coffee!
  • - 8
flag seraph (Jul 20, 2017 at 9:19) (Below Threshold)
 I don't know much about the riding across the pond, but here in Freedomland 27.5+ is actually a pretty sweet wheel "size". I wouldn't give my 2.8s up for anything.

Sincerely,

America
  • + 8
 27.5+ usually gets compared to 29ers, so that's how I'll frame this reply:


Carbon i45 650b wheelset with dt350 hubs, cxray spokes, and brass nipples from lightbike: 1745g

Carbon i30 29er wheelset with dt350 hubs, cxray spokes, and brass nipples from lightbike: 1742g

Maxxis HR2+ 3.0 - 3C MAXX TERRA, 3C/EXO/TR: 990g

Maxxis HR2+ 2.8 - 3C MAXX TERRA, 3C/EXO/TR: 915g

Maxxis HR2 29x2.3 - 3C MAXX TERRA, 3C/EXO/TR: 920g.

Maximum weight difference across wheel/tire combo: 140g, or 5oz when comparing the 27.5x3.0 vs the 29x2.3. There is ZERO DIFFERENCE effectively in weight between a 27.5x2.8 and a 29x2.3.

Regardless of how you feel about the tire size, at least educate yourself about the actual weight difference between plus tires and 29er tires. Across brands, the weight difference averages about 50-70g between 29x2.3/4 and 27.5x3, and 0-20g difference between 27.5x2.8 and 29x2.3/4.

- Don't have the knowledge, can't speak about it.
- I can't argue about the wider tire making a difference in absolute grip, I don't have the capability to measure that. In my experience and opinion, it makes a difference.
- Your argument about weight has been shown to be exaggerated at best, completely proven wrong at worst.
- This has more do with with tire tread design and tire pressure.
- LOLWUT?
- Wrong about what exactly?...plus is just different, not better. Horses for courses.
- Normal is fine too.
  • + 11
 @xblitzkriegx: getting rid of tire durability to make a plus tire weigh less is not the solution.
  • - 6
flag Racer951 (Jul 20, 2017 at 10:14) (Below Threshold)
 @SuperstarComponents: We will have to agree to disagree on the majority of 26" wheel sales being 'high end' - as you say aybe we have a different concept of 'high end'

I agree, it is bonkers when people say something is a different quality because of the badge, but its not something I discussed in the first place.

In terms of the history I am bringing up - Your are suggesting you had no part to play in any of it? - You didnt have multiple forum accounts? - you didnt go into a shop or similar slagging off others products? - you didnt get named an 'asshat' for your behaviour by another company? - you are not smug / rude / passive agrerssive to your customers on facebook? And as for hte CCJ, I am aware you won the case but the events leading up to it did not paint you in a good light, I dont have any more of the truth now than before, just your side of the story - OJ Simpson won his case too btw....

BTW, it wouldnt shock me what goes on in the background, your machineshop video shows the shit-hot stuff you have invested in so fair play for that (I am aware you are making other brands parts too like Six-oack racings chainrings) and I actually wish the business success because it is good to see more UK manufacturing, you could just do with dealing with customers in a better manner and being less arrogant.
  • + 3
 @lake-st: you do just that on a Fuel EX with 2.8 Minions and come back here and tell everyone how much it sucked. go ahead, i dare you.
  • + 10
 @Racer951:

No, no, yes (my opinion was valid), I would say honest and to the point (some people can't hack the truth and get their panties in a bunch about nothing), what happened leading up to it was made up rubbish by a loon.

That about covers it, and 98% of it is either made up or so far from the truth yet repeated again and again by people who weren't involved or actually know anything about it. If you don't actually know the dirty facts in entirety your just repeating the lies.

It was the problem of starting a disruptive business like being a direct seller early on. Lots of people in the business and with a vested interest wanted to kill it off. Now everyone is doing it they have to suck it up.
  • - 5
flag Racer951 (Jul 20, 2017 at 11:16) (Below Threshold)
 @SuperstarComponents: I'm going to leave this here, you talk about lies but that's all that comes out from you. You are a rather deluded individual, your reputation has been validated. 'Asshat of the week' wasn't it? www.shedfire.com/2009/08/26/asshat-of-the-week
  • + 5
 @SuperstarComponents: I like that you keep offering 26" rims, hubs for 10mm qr and 20mm axles and headsets for 1 1/8" straight steerers. That 10mm axle even threads into my 2007 Saint rear mech! You deliver the stuff that keeps my "old standard" stuff going. I'm still running that 20mm Superstrong front hub and a 9mm front hub (Superfast I think it was) both with ceramic bearings. Incredibly smooth. Thanks and keep it up!
  • + 3
 @lake-st:

Have you done that yourself? I have, and it's the sh*t! Rocky tech is where plus kills it. Also, from maxxis.com.. 27.5 x 2.3 Minion DHF 120 tpi = 1075g 27.5 x 2.8 Minion DHF 120tpi = 980g Not to mention the 29 x 2.3 120tpi weighing in at 1145g! There is just more air in the plus and last I checked air doesn't weigh much. Lastly, cheap carbon rims are a dime a dozen now so not much weight gain there either.
  • + 4
 I can't believe I'm reading this... what the fk is wrong with plus?! Can someone please explain me how has plus influenced negatively anyone's ride?! This is not the move from 26 to 275 which was and will always be the biggest fk up in the bike industry. This is not boost that can potentially make you change your rear hub and crankset if your 12x142 frame cracks and you are sent a boost frame as warranty replacement. This isn't even 35mm handlebar. Plus is a complete side show.

Now as much as I enjoy buying at superstar, the argument that plus bikes suck is absolute bollocks. A kind I can hear from a dude I meet on the lift who tells me how much he loves DH, how much he rides just that and then I smoke him on a fkng trail bike. Plus works from 30mm internally wide rims, most current frames and forks fit most 2.8" tyres. Plus makes plenty of sense as a second bike.

Finally hype is made mainly by sites like Pinkbike and commenters. So stuck that pointy finger up your arse.

I don't know, this comment section is a huge disappointment...
  • + 2
 @Kitejumping: "I demoed a plus there too, annoyingly sluggish."


That's what you THINK. But did you actually time yourself? You know, data. Science. Not "feeling" and emotion.
  • + 3
 @jamesbrant: got a Remedy and ain't no fatties going on it, maybe you like them great, I was saying that the industry pushed untested shit out the door for sale, I'm sure they are better now but I still don't see any way to tune out the bounce from a big volume tire at low pressure, maybe it can be done but for me at this time I don't think so, and the only way to make a big tire lighter is to thin it out not thanks, one good thing is they protect your rims from rocks though.
  • + 2
 @Lotusoperandi: Actually, I did time myself, I used Strava on the same EZ / Lazy loop at the Bar-M Moab trails during Outerbike last fall testing many bikes, in this case a 27.5 plus bike (Mojo 3) the segment loop took 16:34. On my normal trail bike, 13:41 (5th at the time, currently 9th overall out of 3135). Same goes to fat bikes, I have one and they are super fun in the snow, but they are sluggish compared to a trail bike on dirt. Not a complete scientific test as the trails were empty on my trail bike and had more people when I was on the plus bike, but it was definitely slower for generic trail riding, time lost passing a few people doesn't create a 3 min gap. Just cause a bike feels fast due to having gobs of traction doesn't mean it actually is fast when you ride the same timed loop. Go ahead and downvote but the Garmin doesn't lie.
  • + 1
 @Lotusoperandi: Also, if the trail has a sand patch all bets are off, plus or fat tires all the way. Probably why they are so popular in Wisconsin and Michigan.
  • + 0
 @Lotusoperandi:

Lotus Flower - If a bike feels crappy why would you ride it? Who gives a damn if it's faster or slower.
  • + 2
 The real question should be " why does 27.5+ even existed ?"
  • + 4
 Wrong on so many levels.

No suspension on the market will give you the small bump of a 18PSI 2.8" tire so if you're riding somewhere sandy and loose nothing is as quick. I can also climb up tech just as fast on Plus because there's so much traction.

Horses for courses. Anyone who thinks otherwise is ignorant.
  • + 0
 Telling it how out is
  • + 2
 I know it's kinda sorta literally your business to sell shiny bike bits and all, and you probably have a bit a stake in this, but holy hell. Step away from the kool-aid bucket and get the hell outa the cargo cult compound.
  • + 4
 @Kitejumping: prove a HR2 3.0 at 970g is less durable than a HR2 29x2.3 at 920g. youre only adding a small amount of rubber and cloth at the sidewall. its not going to weigh a pound more.

i think that plus has a solid place on hardtails and on slower technical terrain where theres tons of rocks and roots. also, wherever theres loose dirt/sand, youll be more stable.
  • + 2
 @xblitzkriegx: a 27.5x2.3 HR2 with DD is going to be much more durable than any exo casing plus tires.
  • + 2
 @Kitejumping: given the experience with GRID and Super Gravity casings I seriously doubt that DD offers much over EXO. If you want a durable and stable tyre you put DH casing on and shut the hell up. Nobody said people should be racing Enduro on 275+, or ride park on these.

You people forget your place, failing to realize that gravity riding is a niche. And you also behave as if you were elite of gravity riding. Just like with any other sport, most people suck. But these people make your sport what it is because they pump money into it by buying bikes you despise. They suck because they have other things to do in life. There's a whole world out there and if you think that MTB is the coolest, that you either ride MTB in the park - you are a f*cking idiot and an a*shole

For majority of MTB owners, just getting down an average DH track is an achievement. So they don't need super strong tyres for what they do. I guided and coached a few absolute noobs and each single one of them would benefit greatly from Plus tyres for that little time they have in the woods.
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: So are you saying only absolute noobs benefit from plus bikes?

I think they are pretty awesome for getting tons of traction on loose steep climbs but there aren't any trails where I live that could really take advantage of them.

On typical xc singletrack hardpack dirt/rocks/roots I would never want one as my primary bike, why push all that extra rotational weight around? Why aren't all the pro xc racers on plus bikes?

This has nothing to do with dh / park / enduro riding and everything to do with adding rotational weight to get more traction when more traction likely isn't needed.
  • + 0
 @SuperstarComponents: Really?

Especially points 8, 9, 10 and 11 on your list don't sound to me, like any company *really* doing this could stand even the slightest chance to survive. So, the problem should solve itself within one or two years, right?
  • + 1
 Nail, meet head! Perfect!
  • + 1
 @willaasss: nope. I'll take that fiver all day long. 29 is not going anywhere. I love my Yeti 5.5 and if they keep making bikes like it, they will sell and people will love them. There will always be 27.5 people and 29, and some diehard 26ers... to each his own
  • + 4
 @manchvegas: I'll go into a little more detail for you just to defend my point of view! I own a 29 trail bike, 650b enduro, 650b super enduro bike as some call them and a 26" dh bike. You won't find any wheelsize nonsense coming from me there's a place for them all.
Now I brought my comment up on a post about trends and one of the current trends is long travel 29ers, trek, spech, orange, orbea, intense, cruz, nukeproof, norco, cube, evil, transition, BMC, Marin just off the top of my head have focused recently on 29 with the marketing to go along with it! You look at the top ten in the men's ews bar Greg there all 650b, look at what's just happened in the dh World Cup, back to 650b. There are people and regions out there which will welcome the trend with open arms no doubt, I've tried a few that I've mentioned myself and there quality machines, but I think once the majority of people's curiosity over the 29 is finished there next bike will be a 650b. The 3 second rolling benefit over a smooth mile the 29 brings to the table doesn't surpass the extra confidence(for myself, and a lot of downhillers by the looks of it) a 650b bike brings to the table! And the added dose of playfulness for the non racers out there!
  • + 2
 @willaasss: good points... I feel like once you are used to a 29" bike with a high headtube that you can almost get behind while charging DH it's hard to go back to that on top of the bike fit of a 27.5. Atleast it was for me. I race XC and Enduro, both my bikes are 29 as I'm just used to the body language of a 29" bike. I've also tried many 27.5's in between, Intense, ibis, a couple others, and I just couldnt' get used to that on top of the bike feeling vs the 29 in the bike feeling. I also would ride with buddies that would start to walk away on chunky DH lines on their 29's and me on my 27.5. So, yes, I will agree that the "current marketing hype" is around them, but it's cyclical.. long travel 29's were the rage 4 or 5 years ago as well when Yeti came out with the SB95 and spesh came out with the enduro 29...
  • + 2
 @WasatchEnduro: Nice with the name calling dude (rolls eyes). Anyway, the bike may feel crappy to you but not to others. Amazing isn't? The whole entire world does not exist only in YOUR head. I know right? Wow.
  • + 1
 @manchvegas: some valid points all round fella(thumbs up) I'm happy to keep my fiver on the table tho ;-) lol
  • + 4
 @Lotusoperandi:

Lotus Flower, don't be such a Millennial, it was a term of endearment.

This is an open forum and everyone is here to share their own opinion. Some of that is even based on experience. I also found the plus (Hightower with 3.0s) too sluggish for my taste. Just like Kitejumping.

The whole ride (Enchilada) I wished I had the bike set up in the two nine config instead cuz I just wasn't jiving with it. Don't get all butt hurt about it.

I'm not like willaasss with a whole garage of steeds. If so, why not have a 6fattie for my 6th bike? Carbonium rims and 2.8s of course.

I can see the merits in certain circumstances. But for experienced riders like you and I (assumption), i think standard widths are best for trail/am riding. I've got a couple friends getting into Hightowers 29. I won't be offended if they convert to 27+, though u know I'll tease them about it.

Ride what works for you. As for me, I'll keep my Slaughter 2.3 and Minion 2.5 and ride off into the sunset with a sh*t eating grin on my face.
  • + 3
 @SuperstarComponents: You speak the truth.
  • + 3
 @Kitejumping: Yep, I find that people running these light tire setups can't last long in hardcore riding.
  • + 1
 @Boardlife69: it's all about the Riders attitude that's holding on to the grips. Send it like you just might not be here tomorrow.
  • + 1
 @lake-st: Ah yes I think we have just hit the real problem. Air pressure not tire size. The people convincing all these plus tire users that they no longer need to put air in their tires are the problem. Air pressure has a direct correlation with speed therefore if you are the type of rider that just wants something that has great traction at slow speed sure use 10psi. If you want to go fast but want more small bump compliance than your 2.4" tires then ~20 psi is for you. Try it. 20 psi in a 2.8" feels totally different than 20psi in a 2.4...
  • + 83
 Dear bike industry
We're bored of your shit.
pack it in with the gimmicks an make stuff that's cross cmpatable an doesn't break and/or cost a small fortune
Ta
the riders
  • + 11
 Nobody said you had to switch from your rim brakes and square taper bottom bracket...
  • + 21
 @FuzzyL: He has a point though, doesnt he?

How many axle width standards resulting in how many different frame / fork types to fit them? - Multiply that by different wheel sizes.

Then you have the 8-10+ different headset sizes, 6+ bb sizes, a different chainring mount design for every manufacturer multiplied by multiple offsets.

10 speed, 11 speed, 12 speed, different cassette mounting standards.

Different handlebar diameters, different brake mounts and as is the subject of this article you can choose from 26, 26+, 27.5, 25.5+, 29, 29.5+.

There really is a lot going on and much of it is just to be 'unique' rather than offer a genuine benefit over a competing product.

29" wheels offered a real 'change' / benefit (if you like them) over 26", I think plus tyres are a good thing to have available too, especially for beginners, 'trail bikes' are amazing nowdays, but some of the other crap I listed above just makes things mind numbing at times.
  • + 3
 @FuzzyL: but im fing glad I did.
  • + 33
 Dear Rider

Thank you for your letter. We've considered it at our AGM and have come up with the following solution which we think you'll like:

- We'll keep inventing solutions to problems nobody had, and you'll keep on complaining about it whilst forking out your cash for that very same product.

Ta
The Bike Industry.
  • - 4
flag DJ-24 (Jul 20, 2017 at 5:26) (Below Threshold)
 @Racer951: Fuzzy is right. Al of these standards exist because somebody bought them.
  • + 12
 @DJ-24: You seriously think you exist in a world where products are produced on the basis of consumer requrement? (in the main part)

Modern business is all about telling the customer what they want, not asking them - the cycling industry has just started doing it (most noticeably with 27.5 wheels) but other industries such as technology and automotive have been doing it for ages.

Industry / commerce is not a slave to the consumer, it is entirely the other way round.
  • + 17
 I am still waiting for Boost or plus to have any impact on my life... other than getting inspired to write tons of sht on the internet that nobody will read 3 days after...
  • + 1
 I forget who, but in one of the interviews in the past a top bike exec flat out said, every small standard change is quite simply there for marketing, it IS bullshit. It makes perfect sense, if they don't have anything to hype and shout about they will sell less bikes.
  • + 3
 @WAKIdesigns: I suppose it only 'changes your life' when you have to purchase replacement parts for your bike if it has the 'latest standard' and your wallet gets exploited ;-)

But, and its a big but, performance bikes are a luxury, we choose to buy them, we dont have to and bikes are they best they have ever been, trail bikes are literally amazing now - Anyone that goes back to bikes 15 years ago or beyond will certainly agree with that!
  • + 2
 @Rasterman: But that is their job... Sell bikes and as many as possible. The marketers are going to take any small thing and spin it into something big any chance they get.

This is why I don't "believe" anything from the larger companies.
  • + 2
 @fartymarty: Exacty - almost every industry is the same, its called capitalism.
  • + 0
 Unlike Boost, or Metric shocks, "the Plus" actually does something. I want 2.8 Minions for my bike as soon as they come in 2ply and I get rims with 30mm internal.
  • + 2
 @Racer951: What real mountain biker sets up a bike and rides it as is for the life span of the bike? We tweak and change shit on our bikes all the time. At least I do and all my friends do. I see the constant change in standards in our sport because thats what are sport is about. If you have 100 dollars to your name or 500k to your name; you'll either buy some tricked out cheap item from superstar components or the newest high priced item from race face . People like fiddling with their bikes. Sure the industry is probably fiddling too damn much but let the market decide what sticks or fades.. Wide rims and tires are going nowhere; they are legit for some geographical areas and a preference for some people.
  • + 7
 @DJ-24: @Racer951: when they come on the new bike it's not the same thing as buyers CHOOSING. Sure we could boycott everything new but when you buy a frame or complete bike that has 85% of what you're looking for and 15% crap you don't want many of us will bite the bullet. How many riders have pressfit bbs and don't want them. They have them because most manufacturers are selling their frames with them, not by their own choosing.
  • - 4
flag WAKIdesigns (Jul 20, 2017 at 7:16) (Below Threshold)
 @utley06: for most people in most areas. It takes time to teach the old dog to change his ways.
  • + 1
 @Racer951: funny you say that as I was just watching some stuff on GMBN where they compare old to new. Old bikes are no fun to ride cf what we have now. Hell I would even take my 29HT over a 15 year old DH bike on a DH trail.

As you say its compatibility of parts. That said there are still a few companies making old stuff. You can still get Hopes in 135 x 36 holes if you need.
  • + 8
 @utley06: Innovation isn't a bad thing, but 90% of what the industry is doing isn't innovative. They're just grasping at straws. Changing an axle width by a couple of mm isn't meaningful change, but it does force a new standard that drives revenue. A little company like OneUp putting a tool in a headset is more innovative than what any of the big boys are doing. What's with calling out Superstar? Also - if Raceface is your gold standard I think you have misplaced priorities.
  • + 2
 @Racer951: Everybody is in a world where companies make exactly the products they can sell.

I know a few people in the German car industry, who really, seriously hate everything about those so called "SUVs" with all their heart. Still, they have to make them, because that's what people are buying.

This is not about people making an informed decision based on what they need, or even on what provides most fun in their specific environment, but what they think that they might just need at some undefined moment in time.

That moment, when they decide to just turn around shortly before arriving at kindergarten, and driving with the kids all over the alps, using only smuggler paths... free at last. Unfortunately that day never comes and that 300 horsepower, 4wheel drive, 2and a half ton vehicle only ever is used to go 2kms to Kindergarten, and then on another 2 to work...

If a 27.5 wheel is half a second faster on the olympics course than a 26 wheel, then some pro will use it. Afterwards people will buy them, because there might be that moment, when they just need that half second...

And even the ones complaining about the new standards are thinking in exactly the same way. Otherwise there would be no reason to complain, if they were not always on the lookout for the latest and greatest they could just ride whatever "standard" they want, for as long as they want. People are still riding bikes from the early 90s.

Yes, there are some situations, in which a certain combination somebody who is just building up a bike wants will simply not be possible. So far, to me, having a larger variety of options to choose from at any given time always outweighed those rare occasions, when after five years of abuse it was time to replace my frame, but the wheels were still good, and wouldn't fit the new frame...
  • + 57
 Whole lot of words. Whole lot of nothing.
  • + 50
 No kidding. I got 3 sentences in, skimmed a couple more paragraphs, said fuck this and went straight to the comments section.
  • + 11
 thankyou...it was basically a whole lot of gibberish being spoken. "well here at Spec., we blah blah and where the first blah blah."
  • + 13
 @Longtravel: blah blah, f'king blah.

How about you?

Same. Blah blah blah.
  • + 3
 @jaame: man, did I step on some feelers? If so, except my apologies...nah just kidding.
  • + 17
 blah blah blah, skipped to the comments, same old wah wah wah.
  • - 1
 Confirmed that the average PB reader isn't able to comprehend industry-speak.
  • + 5
 @therealtylerdurden: Isn't that the point of PB?
  • + 47
 MTB Industry : The hype for 27.5+ wheels is dying...
Pinkbike : Say no more fam.
  • + 34
 "we’ve found that for a large percentage of consumers, a wider tire on a trail bike will be beneficial" translation = we think kooks need bigger tyres to compensate their lack of skills.
  • + 2
 Ha! No shit!!
  • + 13
 This is completely true but consequently such "small" difference in tire width makes MTB much more accessible to more people... I have friends who said they are enjoying their +bikes much more than any bike before and have improved their riding significantly because the +bikes simply gives them more confidence and control. It wont win the race though but thats not what it's been made for in the first place...
  • + 4
 Have you ridden an aggressive plus tyre?
  • + 10
 @winko: I see how it can be helpful for beginners in tricky downhill it uphill sections, but I can't figure what kind of beginner is ok with higher rolling resistance making you "plus" tired when you pedal uphill. When I started mtb i was doing the opposite and using 2.10.2-20 Xc tyres to save my energy in the climbs and it was fine going down as I wasn't riding fast enough to lack grip or destroy them.
  • + 5
 I call BS on that answer. Somebody noticed fat bikes were the fastest growing segment. So some brainiac product manager gets thinking that they can piggyback on the trend and bring the benefits of fat tire to other segments. Not necessarily crazy, but rather ignorant to think the reason was anything beyond me-too innovation. Happens all the time in consumer goods. Somebody releases vanilla perfume, it sells well, by the next year you can get vanilla flavoured everything. Lazy marketers following trends instead of finding real consumer insights and developing innovation to solve real problems.
  • + 10
 @robwhynot: Maybe you need to do a little research....

"Plus" as far as I know was "invented" by Surly on their Krampus (29 Plus) - arguably one of the most versatile bikes ever made. They saw the benefits of fat bikes but wanted to make a trail bike. As Surly "make" their own frames, tyres and rims they could do this.

The rest of the industry then jumped on the bandwagon.
  • + 3
 @zede: You're someone who already rides though, i.e. you're someone who got into the sport earlier on when it was sketchier. I'm in that boat too - I'm fine with getting injured on the bike and seeing massive cliff hucks gets me stoked. The newer riders this whole thing is trying to appeal to are the people who want a new golf, they want to go mountainbiking with as little risk as possible. They're people who don't like it when they're on the edge of grip and find it scary instead of fun. It's one of the reasons enduro is so good at appealing to w wider audience (not that enduro isn't dangerous or hard) - but it's less Josh Bender and more something the average Joe can access who has never ridden.
  • - 3
 @fartymarty: Surely you cant be serious
  • - 14
flag Thustlewhumber (Jul 20, 2017 at 5:21) (Below Threshold)
 The "newer rider" thing is a cop out. Plus tires are the holy grail of riding - increased climbing grip, increased cornering grip, increased small bump compliance AND they allow you to point and shoot on descending - all the things everyone looks for in a tire. And, hint hint, they are WAY faster than skinny tires.
  • + 9
 @Thustlewhumber: If that's true then why isn't everyone running them on the WC circuit and enduro races?
Those are all advantages, but you ignored rolling resistance, which is one of the most important aspects of a tyre. There's a reason people stopped running the old more-than-2.5-inch minions. I'll stick to 2.5 on my DH bike and 2.35 on my trail bike.
  • + 5
 @fartymarty: no disrespect to surly, but I wouldn't credit them with taking 27.5+ mainstream. No doubt part of the shift in the industry that saw plus size become established, but not the sole catalyst.

The big co's must grow sales. That's their mission. So as sales slowed they look to new segments to create incremental bike sales to the existing market. Enter Fat bikes. They had been around as a niche for awhile but the big guys saw it as an opportunity. Suddenly there's a fat bike available from every major brand as they realize there's a chance to sell another bike and grow - "don't ride your trail bike in the winter, get a fat bike that does it better". So the dealers bring in the fat bikes. The press is positive. the hype begins. everyone scrambles to catch up while other are trying to figure out how to parlay that momentum into other segments. Me too Marketing didn't create plus tires, but I'm comfortable assuming it played a major role in shoving them down our throats.
  • + 1
 @fartymarty: Yeah, on my trials moto.
  • + 1
 @robwhynot: Surly didn't take it to the mainstream they just made them first and everyone else jumped marketed the hell out of them.
  • + 1
 @fartymarty: Surly you can't be serious?
  • + 1
 @robwhynot: The big player did push the hell out of it but then they push the hell out of everything to make sales. Look at how everyone is obsessed about the weight of their bike. Does a light bike perform better - the jury is out but everyone thinks it will.
  • + 1
 @gibbon-on-an-orange: I am Surly serious. I've never been any more Surly serious about anything...

...you can't be serious with anything Surly. I don't think they even take them selves seriously but they make good stuff.
  • + 2
 Think we all need bigger tires to compensate for lack of skill. Not many can ride a 'cross bike down A-Line.
  • + 1
 Surlyously?
  • + 33
 next time please take this question to the engineers and not to the marketing/PR department of bikebrand X
  • + 6
 Never going to happen, they may accidentally come out with some real numbers regarding the extra stiffness of boost wheels or 1 1/4" 'overdrive' steerer tubes or the like and confirm the fact that most of the industrys 'innovation' is complete bs.

I actually think plus size tyres are a decent thing though, unlike some of the other crap we are spoon fed.
  • + 5
 Bobby Brown "alter the dampening characteristics of the carcass" - new breed of hygroscopic tyres coming our way. I wonder if they suck up water from the trail, or just dry out the tubeless sealant?
  • + 4
 @DokonjoDaikon: They mop up all the shit coming out of the marketing guy's mouth.
  • + 1
 Ha! Yes Yes Yes! I wish I could upvote you twice.

Specialized had to go and ruin the geometry on their new Enduro 29 to make it 650b+ compatible. What an absolute joke
  • + 23
 You missed out Chris Porter!

Here's the quote:

"Basically, yeah, the trails are not as difficult so you can get away with riding basically a rubbish bike, can't you? You wouldn't design a plus tire unless you could get away with riding basically a rubbish bike. Plus tires are, honestly, who thought of that? Let's make paper thin, rock hard compact tires that are supposed to be ridden at low pressures. Of course they don't work. As soon as you try to load it in a turn, it folds. You put it up to normal pressure, it feels like it's rattling your teeth out, and it's still as heavy as a normal tire that's good. Honestly."
  • + 3
 hahaha. bingo, he NAILS it.
  • - 4
flag xblitzkriegx (Jul 20, 2017 at 9:31) (Below Threshold)
 That was true a few years ago but not now. There are viable aggressive plus tire available and theyre not thin. They don't weigh much more or anymore at all than a 29x2.3/4.
  • + 24
 The hype is over? Well thats a plus.
  • + 5
 Yeah,it's wide-ly accepted that it's another tiring BS from the industry.
  • + 3
 Waning plus size hype (customer created, judging by their words) is creating some boost in industry's push for more innovation in standardization.
  • + 5
 Plus one on that! I'm Tire-ed of all the inflated spinn from marketing types.
  • + 4
 The gains in market traction were largely over inflated.
  • + 3
 @Boardlife69: Or it is just a matter of inertia that a plus tire had not picked up a significant momentum with customers yet?
  • + 20
 I can't quite tolerate the argument that plus bikes lead to the proliferation of higher volume (2.5-2.6") tyres. The idea that, in order to find this gain, the consumer was made to invest heavily in an industry experiment is completely arse over tit!
Proper product trials would have highlighted the obvious flaws with lightweight plus size tyres and would have arrived at this conclusion without Joe Bloggs having to go and spend £2-4 grand on something the industry promised him was the next big thing!
  • + 14
 Well, I love mine. I went from an old 26" full suspension trail bike to a 650B+ trail hardtail and I love it. I'm definitely faster on my local trails, able to ride for longer and wouldn't consider myself a noob. Granted, my old 26" full suspension was pretty old and very outdated but it's simply more fun for me to ride my new bike than my old one. I still have my old bike built up and ready to go but it's not been ridden since I got my new one at the start of the season. For me and the trails I ride most often - (and I think that bit is the crux of the matter) - this bike and tyre size makes sense. I'm not saying I wouldn't be having fun on a regular 650B hardtail but the plus size has definitely taken the sting out of coming off a full suspension bike and the grip of the wider tyres is really great. Different strokes for different folks!
  • + 3
 I agree. I switch between a SC Bronson, a Plus tire SC Chameleon, and a XC geo 29er. They all have a place and do different things. The Chameleon is probably my favorite right now for most of the trails in my area, but different choices are good. My girlfriend prefers the 29er most times and uses a 26" for downhill, again choices and running what you have.
  • + 12
 I really don't see the problem here. If you don't like it, don't buy it. Nobody is forcing you to. I've got a 27,5+ hardtail and I absolutely love it. For a full suspension bike I wouldn't have chosen a 27,5+ but on a hardtail or full rigid bike it all makes sense. Tons of grip and the plus tires helps with damping. If I were to buy a hardtail again I would definitely have gone for a plus bike, maybe even a 29+ this time. So stop whining, buy a bike that fits you and your riding style and RIDE IT!
  • + 11
 This was settled 15 years ago. Coming from 2.2 xc tires, going to meaty rubber was a revelation, but after much experimentation 2.7 and 3.0 tires proved lacking in versatility, so we setttled on the 2.3 - 2.5 range for aggressive trail riding. I don't see that much has changed, including the industry and media's perverse enthusiasm for novelty. Maybe they're relevant for novices, marginal conditions, ebikes or bikepacking, but I wouldn't know or care.
  • + 2
 bikepacking is really the only good one in your list
  • - 1
 15 years ago we couldn't make those 2.7 and 3.0 tires weight the same as the 2.3's now we can. This is called improvement. 30 years ago cars were all made of all steel and got 5 mpg now thanks to lighter materials they have gotten even bigger and get 25+ mpg. We didn't settle on all driving smart cars to get good mpg's did we?
  • + 12
 Maxxis please make some 2.6" Minions (DHF And R2) for 29er in Exo and I will be happy. 2.4WT DHR2 are great but still don't measure 2.4 and 2.8 will be too heavy.
  • + 4
 ^^^^^this guy
  • + 12
 We're considering it! Until then, 29x2.60 Rekon will be available this Fall.
  • + 1
 fartymarty the roadie. how many grams more is the 2.8 than the 2.6 10 maybe 15 damn
  • + 2
 @Maxxis: Cheers. I can wait till next summer (northern summer) as I still have my DHR2 to wear out first. PS they are awesome.
  • + 1
 @etizzel: correct me if I am wrong but you can only get 2.5 and 3.0 in 29. 2.8s are only in 275
  • + 8
 What a whole bunch on bullcrap. The same people yelling us 27.5 plus was the second coming of Jesus are the same ones back peddling on their words and just because the consumers wernt as dumb as your marketing department thought we were now they're saying "what we meant was"... Yea yea what's next 26+?
  • + 1
 26+ is awesome, and has been around for over a decade. I've been rocking it for years. Keen to try the 26 x 2.8 Minions when they come out later this year...
  • + 2
 @Kyle201: They're already available in North America. Feel free to PM us if you have any difficulty tracking down a pair of the 26x2.8 Minions.
  • + 1
 Dude, I've been running a dhf 26x2.8 and it is an amazing tire. Grip is out of this world. I currently have it pairs with a rock razor rear, but I'm considering a dhr to replace it.
  • + 1
 @patrick2cents: Awesome dood. Still waiting to get a hold of those in Canada.... might be waiting till November...
  • + 11
 I'm having more fun more of the time riding a short travel bike with 2.8 tyres.
  • + 8
 I demoed a stumpjumper 6fattie recently and I had a great time on it, even set a few PBs. It was a bit different but not drastically, no more different than 29er vs 27.5. I think if your terrain suits then it's a good option, it's still a bike.
  • + 10
 another collection of comments about how grass was greener in the good old times of 26
  • + 6
 I'm always amazed at the people who admit they didn't read the article then come to the comments to complain about it. "I don't know what this is about or what was said, but I know it's wrong!!"
  • + 7
 Why are people flipping out after everything new comes up?! I mean no one is forcing us to buy the new stuff, whats wrong with more options to be out there everyone can find what they like. Just chill take ur pick, and go out ride what ever you like. I think its always better to have more options.
  • + 10
 Well, in a way, they are forcing you to buy new shit, because old standards become obsolete and you cant buy parts for it. great example are axle standards, BB standards... Worst thing is when they figure out they were wrong with new stadard BS and go back to old one quietly! Example: threaded BB, ISCG mounts...
  • + 7
 Of all the worthless changes over the past six years never happened, perhaps a top line bike would go for $4500 now, rather than $10,000.

And we would still be having the same fun.
  • + 0
 You can still buy a brand new bike with all those shitty parts from 6 years ago for much less than $4500.
  • + 1
 keep dreaming. People want to buy a prestigious product, and they are happy to pay more than needed. With all the YT's, Canyons etc you get more bike than ever for your buck.
  • + 9
 @Thustlewhumber: Six years ago bikes weren't shitty at all. That's kind of the problem the industry is having. I've had demo rides on a bunch of bikes this year, they all ride great, but I always take my current bike to the events, then ride it back to back with the latest and greatest. Of all the bikes I've ridden this year the Enduro 29 was the best, but then I jumped on my 2012 Cotic with tubeless 3C tyres, Bos suspension, a dropper and 1X gears and it wasnt really any better on the same trail. Really nice bike, but I already have a really nice bike.
.
The days of MTBs getting a lot bettter each year are over and the buying public knows that. The amount of gimmicks and re-standardising going on suggests the industry knows it too.
  • - 1
 @Fix-the-Spade: So you are running tubeless, BOS, dropper and 1x conversions? Were those standard in 2012, or did you upgrade to all those parts? My point is that you can still buy bikes with 26" tires, crappy suspension, non-dropper, 3x10 bikes for like $1500 bucks. I put plenty of them together working for a Giant dealer... no one is stopping anyone from buying them.
  • + 2
 @Thustlewhumber: Dude, the first bike I bought with a 1X drivetrain was in 2006, a Cannondale Prophet MX and it came that way from the shop, 1X gearing's as old as dirt. As for the rest, BOS was an upgrade option I ticked on the order form, came with the bike. The dropper is the same one I bought in 2007, by 2012 they were standard on everything anyway. I could have had a Reverb, but already had a GD. The tyres and tubeless was standard too.
.
Like I said bikes haven't really moved much in the last five-six years. The biggest shift is in sizing and the appearance of big travel 29ers, but other than that you could buy bike that was well sorted from the box back then.
  • + 6
 The funny thing is that all the noobs and people who could actually benefit from them are going to see this and think "plus tires are for lames, no way I'm buying them" and "plus was a fad, no way it sticks around, I'm not buying them" and the circle is complete.

I have a plus Chameleon and I find myself riding it more than my Bronson. It's not as fast, but it's fun. I think it would be more fun and fast with a set of carbon rims and 29x2.5 but for a second bike it's hard to justify spending 3/4 of what the bike cost on wheels.

I liked plus hardtails when I rode one so I bought on. But light and wide 29 inch rims were the real eye opener for me
  • + 2
 I have been looking at the Chameleon 27+ (and other +hardtails), and they look fun as hell! I currently have a Nomad3 and absolutely love the bike. To be able to hop on a nice trail hardtail with some big tires and see the trail from a whole new light sounds amazing, though.
  • + 2
 @cgdibble: Bingo. The Chameleon is a fun plus bike. Haven't ridden it in 29er mode. It may not be faster everywhere compared to my Bronson but I just genuinely have fun riding it. Even put flats on it to switch things up.
  • + 6
 The only "problem" I see ...is the "Industry" Police on here. You act like they are trying to screw you personaly, and force you to spend your weekly allowance. Nothing better to do than bitch about things. The so called "Evil Bike Industry", has given all kinds of riders all kinds of options. Its a good thing. Like having one bike that can adapt to run the differnt wheel and tire sizes for whatever your pleasure. I guess when and if you get over the whole "26 is dead" thing....you can finnally move out of your parents basement.
  • + 9
 Love it!! So many times the comments get flamed for discussing wheel size, so PB does a feature on it. Bravo
  • + 5
 I rode some Surly 29x3 Dirt Wizards (2.8" actual) and they were awesome (think aggressive monster truck) but 1300g a tyre so quite heavy and slow to get up to speed. But smashed everything in their path once up to speed.

The advantages of the Plus hype is that it has pushed the limits of tyre widths for regular bikes. I can see a future of 2.5 - 2.6 tyres. Maybe something like the 2.75" Minion and Highroller of old.
  • + 4
 My 2.35 MM is 61mm and a 2.6 MM fits in the 63 +- 2mm range? WTF?
Cf Julian Wagner's answer.

Does the internet already host a list of real tire sizes? For example on a 25mm rim, a 2.5 maxxis is 56mm and a 2.35 MM is 61mm...
  • + 1
 I just took this site (communtiy based databank) for comparing Maxxis DHR II 2,3" vs. 2,4" WT:
www.reifenbreiten-datenbank.de/reifen.html

it's in german though..
  • + 4
 That’s a whole lot of people whining in this thread and really to be honest, about nothing. Who cares about wheel size, who cares about rim width, who cares about what the industry is doing and what the consumer demand is, who cares about who’s jumping on the wagon of “must have now”, the list of “who cares” can just keep going
What’s important is what works for you and for your trail. If it’s a 27+ bike, then be it, if it’s a 29 or 26 then be it. Will you look down on your buddy if he/she rides a different wheel size than you? Of course not
The majority of the people here have not tried 27.5+, hence the whining. If you would have tried it, maybe you would be slightly more open minded to another wheel size being fun to ride, but instead, you’re stuck in that place and refuses to look around you. Maybe not, maybe you look around and go: “WTF is happening to the industry?” Try it, you might have some fun doing it.
I’ve been on Plus bikes for some time, not because I am slow, or because I like to drag my feet (like some people referred it to be), not because I lack confidence, but because it is damn fun and those of you who refuse to admit that another standard or wheel size might be fun, you’re just missing out.
The truth is the number of standards and wheel sizes are actually good because there are as many different types of trail and as many different types of riders, so why not expand the portfolio?
By the sounds of it, everyone here would prefer to all ride the same bike, same wheel size, same colour, same everything… let’s all be sheeps then
After all, isn’t the whole point to go out and ride bikes and have fun doing it? So who cares…..
  • + 6
 Hey there people I'm Bobby Brown, and I got the best tyre advice in town...
My bike is fast, my Maxxix is shiny
I tell all the #endurobro's to kiss my heinie
  • + 3
 100%.
  • + 3
 Here I am out of marketing school
I'm dressin' sharp & I'm actin' cool
I got a con-sumer here that has purchased my tires
Let them hype up my brand which will influence new buyers!
  • + 4
 Vomit. We've had access to wide tires for nearly two decades. I use 2.35 Minions for the grip, weight and durability. I run out of talent before I run out of grip. Sure if I'm shuttling I have 2.5s to put on, but not for trail riding.
For bike packing, loose surfaces (snow, sand) E Bikes, sure, fill your boots. But for trail riding, pass. And yes, I've used 2.7 Mobsters and Gazzaloddi Nokians in 3" in the past
  • + 3
 Why does everyone care so much? Ride your damn bike and be happy. I've ridden 26" hardtail, 27.5 full suspension, 29+ rigid, and now 27.5+ steel hardtail, singlespeed. Its fun. That's all I care about. Sub 30lbs which is lighter than most full suspensions, no worries of pivot and bearings and dropper post issues. One gear so I sure as hell need to be fit. I can climb anything and its not because of my tires, its because I'm a good rider and this bike suits my style. And if you think I can't have fun on the downhill on a hardtail with no dropper, the 140mm fork ensures I do.
  • + 3
 Let bike people run bike companies, and accountants run banks. There is no middle ground. The best fun here is laughing at the kool aid drinkers on the latest piece of mass marketed "i really should have been born a roadie" crap
  • + 3
 27.5+ is an extra wheel option of new generation 29ers so most probably they will just coexist and on the other side we see that even the new generation 27.5 bikes can take up to 2.8 tires so in a few years the plus name will fade but the wider tires will remain.
  • + 3
 When it comes to winter and spring, I love riding my fat bike. In the summer and fall, I love riding my trail bike. If I didn't have room for both, or if I continue to cut down my "fleet", I might get a 29/27.5+ to try covering my year round riding.

I don't see why people think that's a problem. The fact of the matter is, people are more upset with MTB industry marketing as a whole, rather than 27.5+ bikes in particular. If they get more people into the sport; which it seems when it comes to beginners, they do- it's a good thing. Don't be a snob just for the sake of it.
  • + 3
 It's progress, I can only speak for myself, I enjoy riding my ibis Mojo 3 with 2.8 tires more than any other bike I've owned. Maybe there will be something better next time I'm in the market. But I won't shun it only because it's different.
  • + 3
 You don't need a full article on this. It's clear that they are DEAD...well the PLUS you are referring to. The tires that benefit riders are the 2.5 or 2.6 up front...no wider. Most people don't have an issue with traction...and if they think they are they probably aren't disciplined riders. A 2.35 or 2.4 out back is plenty for traction, with a little insurance.
  • + 3
 Not sure if 2.6 is considered plus or not but when my local trail gets sandy and loose as hell in the summer, my ibis 742's with 2.6 tires are flipping sweet!! I agree with what most of the above mentioned industry reps said.. It really depends on preference and geography. Try telling Minnesotans fat bikes are hype or for beginners. Discussion and providing insight from your personal perspective in a respectful manner is great but commenting on pink bike like some fruit loop with a far left or right wing political opinion is pointless, rude, and makes pink bike a shitty place. We all don't have the answers for the entire mountain biking world, let's chill and enjoy the options.
  • + 4
 @mikekazimer - I often wonder how it feels to have dumb f*cks like @gonecoastal receive 250+ likes for a dumb f*ck comment on a website you put so much time and effort into?
  • + 1
 @deadmeat25: Feels good man.
  • + 2
 All this bashing of the bike industry is very irritating.

I love having choices:
-Table Saw, Chop Saw, Miter Saw, Band Saw, Saber Saw, Jig Saw, Hand Saw, Hack Saw

-Drill Press, Hammer Drill, ½” Drill, 3/8” Drill, Corded Drill, Cordless Drill, Cordless Screwdriver, Screwdriver

-12, 16, 20, 24, 26, 27.5, 27.5+, 29, 700c, hard-tail, full suspension, 0-200mm travel, road bike, cruiser, mtb, ebike

I love them all!!! It is about the right tool for the right job. Each one serve a purpose. There is no one tool that can do everything well.

I am nothing more than just a consumer. I have no ties to the bike industry except I love bikes since I was a kid. It gave me freedom that I would not have had otherwise! I love the changes.

These changes made the bike better and better each year! I buy bike every couple of years. The innovations and improvements are very noticeable. I wish I can say the same about my skills…

I love my bike in either configuration 29er or 27.5+. I prefer 27.5+!

My brother climb 5000+ feet on a Walmart Mongoose MTB, had a great time descending that 5000 ft, and then he went to a bike shop and bought a proper MTB bike (26”) at a great price and continued the fun!

Wind in your hair, mud on your back, and a big giant grim on your face. Let’s Ride!!!
  • + 2
 I really do not understand all of the whining online here and everywhere else about the industry. EVERY industry had technological advancements, NO-ONE is being forced to buy new parts, not everything is for everyone, buy what works for you and maintain it. Ride things before you complain about them, and even then realize that not every product is ideal for you.
  • + 2
 My opinion - Plus size tires/wheels have been very popular with the bikepacking community for a while. And theres no doubt that bikepacking has also gained lots of momentum over the last couple years. I have a feeling that the interest in the wider platform cross-pollinated into the trail bike market out of sheer experimental interest which then lead to many people buying 'do all' plus bikes for all their ride adventures (yeah, i did!). Then there's also the "Hey, I can squeeze these plus wheels on my 29'r... sweet!". The plus platform is going to quickly fade as the industry levels the big tire interest to around a 2.5ish size - but it will always be around.
  • + 4
 It's refreshing to read through the comments and actually see people becoming more and more aware of all the industry B.S. And speaking up about it. Knowledge is power.
  • + 6
 Dumb question: how is 6fattie wordplay?
  • + 4
 yeah, I don't get it either? Its obviously something really clever.
  • + 1
 It's similar to 'six fitty', as in 650b? That's my bike.
  • + 1
 Bike = guess. No idea how my phone came up with that.
  • + 1
 @iamamodel: yeah, maybe 6 fitty but fattie because fat tyres...
  • + 2
 Hello,
For non professional or very capable/aggressive riders , I think that plus rim+tires is the best way to have fun on a hardtail.
I'm very average,, maybe below average, but I instantly had more fun riding my NS Djambo plus hardtail over any other alu or stell I have ever had in the past.( I have had many ) Maybe they are slower and you need a bit more effort on the ups and acceleration is not so good, but if you look more for more"easy" fun over speed I guess they are super. Average riders like me really can enjoy more technical sections much more and with more confidence. The real problem is that average riders like me, are often not so keen to try products that look, well, "strange". They go in a shop and buy something that is "normal" for the eye, and dont want to buy something too much specialistic. I also think that many shops have not seen the plus format as something they beleve in too much I experienced this in some shop too, When I was asking infos about those bikes, often they replied like " oh yes, and then when this new plus format, very comfortable, easier, and well, it is a new ttrend, lest see if it takes on... "And me,, "did you try it? "... "oh yes, but Im happy with my Stumpjumper, it does everything and it does it well.. dont need any different bike now, I guess ". Not much much convinction on their faces.. to push it in the right way. If you cannot believe in the product you sell, I guess people can feel it.
. Key is to build wheels that dont go over 2,0-2,1 kgs. Over this the bike remain rideable and fun but you really begin to feel the negatives of plus format. I am know using a 2340grams pair of wheels ( I built them for my second backup bike and for gf, anyway for her all bikes are too heavy to pedal.. Smile ) and they are indeed not that great They go, but they go slower.. ( but even if they are heavy, I guess they are not so bad anyway as many say ) . After the first 3 months I was using my first plus bike, I tried to build a normal 27,5 ( 2,25 tires) hardtail built around a discount OnOne Parkwood frame I bought for almost nothing. , It came out a very light bike, and accelaratiion was a lot better, but on the first descent, I said ..."no way I will keep this hardtail..I want my plus back!!!" That particular rocky downhill was so much much more difficuilt on the normal 27,5 bike, With normal 27,5 HT you really need to watch accurately where you put your wheel and in the end or ride, you maybe are less tired for pedal effort but more stressed about the more attention you needed on the technical sections, I think HT plus is a bit of a compromise between a normal HT and a 120/130 full sus, but also more easier over loose and scary stuff. ( again, for average riders I mean ) ,. I built it to try the difference, becuase I felt that plus bike was a bit letargic and I missed that lively feeling that on the plus bike had somewhat gone But in the end I think that the plus compromise wins especially for fun hardtails. If you are very fast, jump a lot maybe plus is not your way, but for riders like me, that need confidence of the downs, that go out once in a week just for for fun ,and want a bike without linkages to maintain ,and a good overall cheap bike that work all year round plus is very good.
  • + 5
 PB just trolled everyone, again!
  • + 1
 I have a hightower and routinely switch the wheels and get the benefits of both. I bought it setup plus because the shop guys said it was great. I struggled with it for awhile switching back and forth to 29 wheels and eventually found the 29 wheels were way faster for the most part but the plus tires were alot funner. Rather than bitching about the industry standards shouldn't it force the bike manufacturers to build bikes that allow changes in wheel sizes without paying huge penalties to the customers. Now I can ride my hightower in 29 mode for most stuff here in Arizona, but in Sedona or on South Mtn I can swap wheels from a carbon 29 to an aluminum plus and rail without issue. It really depends on the trails you ride and where you live.
  • + 1
 Stumpy plus rider right here. Haters gonna hate. I'd class myself as relatively quick and competent rider. Riding enduro bikes before they were enduro bikes, having made the switch 2 years ago from the 160mm spicys/slash's etc I'd been riding since 06 I've gotta say that I love the plus. It's quicker, more fun, and where I am I can ride from the top of a mountain all the way onto the beach and it covers it all.
As with all bike industry stuff the hype train happens with anything new, I hate it as much as anyone but if you haven't ridden a plus and neg it then your just being cynical and narrow minded. Try it, you may like it.
Mic dropped.
  • + 1
 My dad just bought a Kona big honzo, he is older and doesn't really have any experience mtbing but he instantly loved the way plus tires felt while riding. I hope if he ever has to replace the tires that's it's not too big of a hassle for him if plus becomes more obscure.
  • + 1
 I've nothing against 27.5+, I just always kind of thought your 27.5+ bikes are for your non-pinkbike reader...

Newish into the industry (at least doesn't live and breath mtb) and been sold in on the comfier ride benefits it offers.
  • + 5
 Ever tried one ? I'm not new to to the game in fact I bought my first MTB in 1986. I would describe my self as obsessed with mountain bikes and I obviously read Pink Bike so you're totally wrong on all counts.
I have a 160 travel fs that I recently did the Megavalanche on, but the bike I currently most want to ride is my 27.5 plus Genesis Tarn 20.
The reason is not complicated either, it's simply because that steel framed beauty is the most FUN bike to ride I've ever had.
Diversity is the spice of life, don't knock it till you've tried it and don't judge a book by it's cover !!
  • + 3
 @konabigshed: I'm right there with you...I've been in and out of mtb since before Nirvana was a thing...road Moab in the early 90's...

I bought my Mojo3 ~3 months ago after demo'ing a bunch of great bikes. Fact is I was faster up and down on mid-travel 29'ers but I had so much more fun on the mojo that I went that direction with 2.8NN. I'm not trying to win races when I ride I'm trying to have fun but my times up and down the mountain are faster than on my previous bike. I don't have a ton of rocks where I live but there are some good technical trails around Santa Cruz where the plus tires just rail.

All that said, I did knock the rear NN off the rim airing into a hard left-hander and have now moved to 2.6" Maxxis - they feel about the same with a bit less squirm but I miss that moto sound!
  • + 1
 @AaGro: I hear that, amen brother !
I have 2.8 WTB rangers but will soon change to 2.8 Maxxis highrollers.
I suspect there's more mud here than you have in California......unfortunately.
  • + 1
 @AaGro: but would you ride the mega on it? Plus is great but if you can't afford several bikes then just ride the bike that works in all situations. I ride enduro,trail, shuttles, dh and even stage races on my 160mm 2.35 equipped bike.
  • + 1
 @headshot: Yes I'd do the mega on the Genesis if that was all I had, I certainly have no chance of winning what ever I'm on so why not ? The two mates I went with did it on their Ros 9's.
I did agree with you that plus was not great as an only bike, but tyres are getting better and Cube now make a 150 stereo plus and I'd bet it's fun, I'm tempted anyhow.
  • + 0
 @headshot: probably not...I think I would want more travel and a stouter fork than a fox 34...the Mega isn't like the terrain where I live though and I could easily run 2.5 WT Minions on my bike to have a more stout tire profile...

Truthfully, I'd probably demo a bigger travel 29'er for the few times a year I get to truly rocky terrain...but I don't see the need for more bike to ride a place like Downieville if that gives a better idea of the what I think the range of a mid-travel 27.5+ bike is...

I can run tires from 2.35-2.8" without really compromising ride height, for where I live and how I ride 90% of the time, I really like 2.6-2.8.
  • + 1
 It's interesting that a lot of bike manufacturers hedged their bets on 27.5+ by making their 29ers compatible with both wheelsets. It was probably a smart and safe move to not miss out. But where are all these bikes? Out here on the East coast we're seeing very few on the trails. I would love to see the sales numbers; it's probably 90% purchases of the standard 29er set-ups and 10% or less 27.5+. This trend feels like a flash in the pan
  • + 4
 Out here in the West you'd be surprised how many we see, and by some really fast riders. Rocky stuff is where the plus seems to benefit the most. I think the push to the 2.6 is where the whole plus thing will land as you see pivot is doing with the mach 5.5, which was designed around South Mountain in Phoenix. Could be plus size isn't so much as a flash in the pan but the evolution of wheels and tires in general.
  • + 4
 it fizzed out once people other than the marketing department rode them....
  • + 4
 People finally figured out that plus rubber is sluggish and not as durable!
  • + 1
 Tire pressure is more critical the bigger the casing gets. I run mine firm and reap the benefits of Gnarly 3" Dirt Wizard knobs that also (surprisingly) roll as fast as my 29r did? 60 tpi!, not the paper thin tires that usually come stock.
  • + 1
 Don from Santa Cruz confirms with some real numbers that 27.5+ was a flash in the pan for full suspension and plus is only likely viable for hardtails: “Of late, most of our Hightowers are selling as 29ers straight out of the shop. I think most riders are choosing the speed and responsiveness of 29 over the extra grip and cush of Plus … We also offer the shorter travel Tallboy and Juliana Joplin in 29 or 27.5+, and for the Tallboy, about 90 percent of them sell as 29ers. The Joplin--a women's bike which shares the same chassis with a slightly different component spec--has booked as a Plus bike at a higher percentage. But even there, we're mostly selling it as a 29er. On the hardtail side of things, our latest Chameleon is sold as a Plus bike about 75% of the time … It definitely seems like hardtails are a more viable platform for Plus long-term.”
  • + 1
 I guess the one surprise revelation about the cycling industry isn't the marketing tactics so much as the reaction to them.

It would just about proper to say that bikes these days are amazing. To that end, the industry listened to their customer base. Once the playing field gets leveled with quality products, how's the manufacturer able to turn a profit? Incremental changes, subtle tweaks, retro/rogue/future colorways are a "product" of an industry who's benchmark is, well, amazingly high.
  • + 4
 The only application I'd take 27.5"+ on is an all mountain hardtail. I feel that's a good spot for it.
  • + 4
 I don't understand all the whining about industry hype. Can't well just put our big boy pants on and think for ourselves?
  • + 1
 I tested 27.5+ 2y ago and my overall reaction was : meh.

Yup larger volume but the overall diameter was smaller than 29" which made it not much more efficient on rocks and roots, traction do not seem to increase that much over a 2.3,2.4 29" while you are losing precision in the process and it becomes a barge in the mud.

Now I'm riding a bike in both regular 29 size (racing)* and 29+ (epic rides) * and I find the 29+ size much more interesting with the increased rollover ability of a larger diameter. Sure the 29+ doesn't suit every situation it is not a bike for everything but at least I find benefits over regular 29.

* yes the BB end up very low when mounting regular 29x2.2/2.3 on a bike made for 29x3 but I use it mainly on marathon races with a lot of time spent on fireroads instead of real singletracks. I don't mind that much the occasionnal pedal strikes when it gets technical/bumpy.
  • + 1
 I've got a plus and a "regular" 29er and have fun on both, in somewhat different ways. I'm happy the industry experimented with different tires, but it would have been cool if it was more incremental, like, maybe 2.6 before 3.0. What really bugs me is boost, which is born from the "need" to make stronger wheels. The industry went full retard on plus bikes, but now it's quite obvious that 2.6-2.8 is what most people prefer as after that the amount of drag leads to diminishing returns for most who have to pedal up or ride tight fast corners. A 2.8 tire did not demand boost rear ends. My 2016 honzo is non boost while the 2017 is, and the clearance is virtually the same and can actually just fit a 2.8 tire and both have super short chainstays. The arguement that boost was need for strength might apply for 29er plus, but could have been addressed with different hub design and axel offset. Boost left people who wanted to do a frame swap in effect having to do a whole bike swap, which is ridiculous and wasteful. Virtually no company (shout out to @bansheebikes ) make frames that could accept multiple hub widths, which is total nonsense. And lastly, might just be me, but I find boost bb spacing messes with my hips - anyone else?
  • + 1
 I'm using a regular 142x12 rear wheel on my boost 29+ frame using the Lindarets boostinator. Saying there aren't any option is false. It becomes an annoyance only when you want to swap wheels from a non-boost to a boost bike on a regular basis but most people don't own multiple wheels anyway.
  • + 1
 @opignonlibre: No all hubs can use Boostinators, particularly expensive ones like my Chris Kings. Boost BB spacing and non-boost hubs sounds like a recipe for bad chainline in the big gears, too. Just seems a lot easier if frames can accommodate different hub sizes as opposed to having to put adapters into hubs.
  • + 1
 I have a 6fattie expert and have been riding it in all conditions from snow to dry to wet to loose. The plus tires certainly have a place. I find I run higher pressure than I was told, usually 16/18 front 18/20 rear in my purgatory grid compound 3.0's. I have ridden the bike at mountain creek in the dry and wet, highland in the dry and many trail days in central ny and strava doesn't always lie.. these tires can be fast. The grip is real over rocky rooty sections and still holds corners well. I do run the higher pressure in part that you can roll and burp the tires easily while railing corners. To each their own but my mates are jealous when they spin out on climbs or wash out on corners that I just nailed.
  • + 1
 Had a 27.5 Reign which didn't really float my boat. Sold it and bought a 26 inch Reign and Makulu which is now worth next to nothing to the outside world. Very happy with my bikes but I have to admit that I won't be able to afford new 27.5 bikes again as the costs are just too high for my budget, even second hand. So while I am glad that things are moving forward, I am also sad that when I can't find any spares for my bikes, I won't be able to ride again as I would like, and that is what it was all about for me to start off with. I also don't think the winning margins for 29er DH bikes in the World Cup this year justifies the new wheel size. If all of the riders shift to 29ers, it will still be the same guys on the podium. Just another industry move. IMHO
  • + 1
 I though plus bikes were dead. Went into my local bike store for the 1st time in about a year last time they had several plus bikes this time they had zero I asked about them and was told they just weren't shifting them especially the full bounce ones so they stopped stocking them
  • + 1
 Well, I'm loving mine at the moment, nobby nic 2.8 on 45mm id rims shoved into trasition trans am 29er frame. A great deal of people I meet who ride full suspension do so because they are more comfortable than a hardtail, so bones don't ache so much at the end of a ride. I can't afford a decent fs bike, 27.5 plus tyres make my hardtail more comfortable and more fun than running 29. If I want to cover more ground quicker or were to ever be racing, then I can run 29. The key thing for me is choice. What a boring world this would be without choice...
  • + 1
 So much fury in the comments, why all this hate? The world has enough room for all kinds of biking, be it plus-bikepacking, enduro, downhill, cx, xc, gravel, road-endurance, e-biking, trekking, you name it.

I would not want to go back to my 90s Hardtail with shitty shock performance and prone-to-fail-rims.
  • + 1
 plus bike have been messed up by the industry IMHO, 3.0s on 29mm rim ride terrible, no wonder people say they wobble about on berms. Tyres have come a long way in a short time, a DHF 2.8 on a i45 rim truly is amazingly accurate for its size. no squirming and it'll hold lines where 2.4s will get thrown around. I think what has become apparent from the plus size thing is how important rim to tyre width really is to affecting handling.
  • + 1
 I have 2.8's on my hardtail for shoulder season riding and in the snow. Works great for that. However after running them in the summer on dirt I find the weight penalty going up the steep climbs is more of a hinderance than the benifit of monster trucking down through everything. For summer time dry riding I'll be going back to 2.5's. Once the snow flies the 2.8's will go back on. Cue the I already know all this and have opinions about everything, yet I never try any of it crowd.
  • + 1
 Both my Full Sus and Hardtail can take 2.8 tyres.
I tried them on both, thought it was intersting for a summer. Put my DHF2.3 back on for winter and they've stayed on this summer

I'm £100 down. Nice to try out but I'd never buy a plus bike because its plus.
  • + 6
 Ride your bike!!!
  • + 2
 The industry presents new tech and options and all most of you meat heads can do is complain that it hurts your weed addled brains. Don't like it, don't buy it. If there was no innovation you'd be whining about stagnation.
  • + 1
 Ok I'll chime in I live in Squamish and ride whistler 3 days a week There's tons or 26 inch bikes rocking the park I see one plus size bike for every 30 all mountain bikes I see This includes 29ers I think want needs to happens is tire size needs to be forgotten about so manufacturers can stop making 800 different tires and frames and bring some value back to biking
  • + 0
 I recently demo'd a StumpJumper with 3.0 Spesh tires on it, its very good. I rode it on a pretty aggresive downhill with jumps here in the rockies, the grip in the corners is superb, significant over 2.5 Minions, the climb grip is really good as you'd expect, it does feel like a mini fat bike, with hardly noticible rolling resistance increase. (or any un-dampened rebound from the tires).
Since wheel\tire weight literally makes no difference in required power output once they are up to rolling speed, it seems like a win win. (it did dampen the handling a bit, but the benefits far outweigh the cons, especially in proper rough steep DH situations ie. not rolling soft california hills where these bikes are designed)
  • + 2
 BTW people get crazy about wider tires but they are excited that 170+ freeride bikes are returning. So longer travel is welcome but wider tires are for noobs?
  • + 1
 there is always a sweet spot in everything, more isn't always better and in some cases it's worse, and in this case, tires got too floppy and vague feeling to resonate with most riders who like to shred and corner hard. Is 300mm of travel good, because it's more?
  • + 0
 For the last 6 months I've been riding 27.5+ and 29ers on my Switchblade and have come to the conclusion that the benefit of 27.5+ is about 80% on the front and about 20% on the rear. Up front it's hard to find a better set up than a 2.8 tire like a HR2 on 27.5 40mm rim. Fantastic grip, excellent small bump compliance and doesn't feel heavy like you might expect. Going back and forth I really didn't feel any heavier than a 29er tire. Out back the 27.5+ has rock crawler traction and great braking and as long as you stay on the pedals it motors right along. However, as soon as you stop pedaling you immediately start to lose momentum and it takes a lot of energy to get it back up to speed. Rolling speed and acceleration were the two biggest differences I notices going back and forth between 27.5+ and 29er. I loved the grip and small bump compliance of the 27.5+ and I loved the rolling speed and acceleration of the 29er so I decided to try getting the best of both worlds. I started running a 29er out back and 27.5+ up front. Works great.
  • + 5
 It's dead, obviously
  • + 8
 It should've died in the womb instead of 26" dying after an exemplary career.
  • + 2
 I beg to differ. Love my 2.8" tires.
  • + 1
 @therealtylerdurden: You can still buy and build 26" bikes. Parts didn't disappear in a snap.
  • + 2
 @opignonlibre: to an extent. And a lot of new tires don't have 26" options. There are almost no new 26" bikes being made except for department store bullshit or dirt jumpers. It ain't all peachy, regardless of you trying to play it off as if it is.
  • + 1
 @therealtylerdurden: There are litteraly millions of high-end 26" mtbs, frames and forks in perfect working order and a lot of upcoming service life in the field and second hand market.

Any custom builder can built you a 26" bike if that is your thing.

Additionnaly last time I checked (2 months ago) there were more than 100 different 26" mtb tires models on the market according to the bike24 online shop. It means that:

- your preferred tire may not be available but there is surely a decent alternative.
- your preferred LBS might not have them in stock but it doesn't mean the tire can't be ordered.

The reality is not as bad as we would think based on lbs inventory and cycling media.
  • + 1
 @opignonlibre: I mostly buy used, but eventually they'll die. But good point on the custom builders, you could even have them replicate your favorite out of production frame I'd imagine!
  • + 3
 Tons of comments and not one focused on the real content of the article. The use of #pluscurious
  • + 0
 This 27.5+ craze reminds me of Yogi Berra's saying, "Nobody goes there anymore. It's too crowded."

If you read Pinkbike and all other forums, EVERYONE hates 27.5+ and chastises the hype. Yet, sales are strong and manufacturers are offering them (you think they would continue if nobody bought them?).

SO, WHO THE F IS BUYING 27.5+ IF NOBODY IS BUYING 27.5+!?

There's obviously a market there, otherwise companies wouldn't be shelling out mega-cash to keep the tire molds up and running.

Also, can someone please explain what it means for a company to be a "marketing-only company?" This is said of Specialized a lot, and I don't understand it (I ride a Santa Cruz, so save your prissy little retort about shilling). If a company is all marketing, then how does it possibly manufacture product? I mean, when you utter those words, stop and look up the meaning of each word as it comes out of your mouth. I think you will figure out that you really don't know what you're saying when you say that. All I can think of is that haters just say it because that's what haters say. Apple is another example, especially coming from people who buy Android because they can't afford Apple. "Apple is all marketing, broh"! they say, without realizing that Apple actually makes shit.

Once again: Understand. The. Words. Coming. Out. Of. Your. Mouth.
  • + 0
 I have a plus hardtail and I love it, it needs more effort to go uphill on asphalt and along river roads and so on..but on the technical sections, and normal single track trails, I mean those part of trails that makes me want to ride a mountain bike, the bike is a lot easier, safer and more fun that a traditional hardtail.. If industry didnt fail to say that plus bikes are good for average riders ( and below average like me maybe ) the plus foramt would have had more success, nobody here want to feel average...no? Here everyone want to feel and act like they are pro riders, that cannot go down of a steeo section without pro suspension and tires, googles, and tuned shocks...Fact is that many "enduro wannabe" riders on here, would be better to try a 130mm plus hardtail and enjoy the trail.
  • + 4
 We were riding 26+ with Gazalodis back in the day. So... meh.
  • + 2
 You were! I was running Michelin DH16s, but yeah I see your point. Nothing new.
  • + 0
 So I have a plus bike and still think it was a solid buy. It is 29+, but same difference, hardtail and built to be a fun bike, not a race bike. Trek Stache. The positives are it takes the harshness out of being a hardtail, gives great grip here in Utah which is mostly loose over hard to straight up moon dust, and the Yuge wheels roll great over everything. Negatives are the tires/wheels are heavy (though not too heavy at 855g for the tires, Mulfut rims are another story), noticeably heavier than my 27.5 WT Minnion DHFs, and rolling resistance is substantial.

If it's a purpose built bike, plus can be great, just understand the pros/cons and don't expect to win a damn XC race on your plus bike. It is a niche market, and probably should have never been sold as the "next big thing." Also, I agree with most of the guys above that they work best on hardtails, and I would even say have no business on full suspension bikes if you're an intermediate to advanced rider.
  • + 2
 I don't own one, but I think a 27+ hardtail would be a super fun bike. Like the new DMR Trailstar? I bet that thing is a blast.
  • + 0
 All you keyboard cowboys need to chill the f*ck out and go ride your bike. If you don't want to ride a 650B+ then don't. If you want to ride your old 26" stuff then more power to you. All the pretend-a-bros hide behind their computers acting like they have the slightest understanding about marketing, engineering etc. Seriously quit your bitching and ride whatever wheelsize you want. The more choices the better in my opinion.
  • + 2
 Comments and responses too long and tired... What happened is that any fully with 2.6" tires is infinitely better than any hardtail with plus tires. The End.
  • + 2
 There isn't a lot of noise around plus, so we put out a massive article containing opinion from the salesmen trying to sell plus. Yeh great.
  • + 1
 Try to pedal a plus or a fat... it take double effort... so what??? I never will buy a bike that needs more strenght...

Is good only for ebike...
  • + 3
 Or you could just...you know...ride one and stop talking about it.
  • - 5
flag WAKIdesigns (Jul 20, 2017 at 0:20) (Below Threshold)
 275+/29 hybrids is probably the biggest "single next big thing" that happened to MTB since dropper posts. It is a true game changer. Getting a hardtail like that this winter
  • + 6
 @WAKIdesigns: never go full XC Smile Smile
  • + 7
 I'd love to deeeight, I'd love to try one....

Only also I wouldn't.

Because then I might want one.

And then I'd have to think about retiring a whole bunch of bits and pieces in my shed that still bring me big smiles as they become incompatible.

And I can't do that; they'd get sad no-one was riding them. I have too much respect for their history.

I thought you, of all of us, would appreciate that.
  • + 6
 @WAKIdesigns: and you will probably end up riding it through next summer cause hardtails are fun and definitely not for noobs.
  • + 4
 @fartymarty: isn't Waki a newb by definition? All this plus stuff is still as confusing as ever lol
  • + 3
 tried them, twice. def not for me.
  • + 2
 *skips article, scrolls straight to the comment sectio* "I'm just here for the comments* *pulls out popcorn*
  • + 1
 Muddy Mary's used to be available in 2.5 single ply. I used them on my all mountain bike since back in 2009. I don't know why those went away and come back as 2.6.
  • + 2
 Riding bikes is fun but the true joy comes form debating wheel sizes that the industry will soon deem obsolete.
  • + 1
 what happened - nobody cared about 27.5+ that's what. wonder how many people didn't bother reading the article and just posted how pointless 27.5+ is.
  • + 2
 If you look at motorcycles, the closest cousin of MTN bikes, wheel size has remained constant within the intended use.
  • + 1
 @mikekazimer Holy shite, are people on a hare trigger or what? I haven't seen this many rich guys upset since the 2008 wall street crash!
  • + 3
 So 27.5+ was just the 'gazzalodi my shit up bru' phase of modern bikes?
  • + 1
 So funny. Back in the day everyone had to have 2.6 or 3.0 Gassalodi tires on Mag 30's or double wides.

Lower pressure, more grip. Heavy as hell and sucked to pedal.

Now they come out with lighter weight 3.0 tires and wider rims and everyone is loosing their minds.

It's just a tire people. Your road bike can get tires from 23c to 45c. Your car can have different size wheels than someone else. You can put a 36" front wheel on your motor cycle if you want.

We shouldn't be silly and say only one size of tire is cool. Let's make everything from 1.5 to 5" and let people choose what works for them on their terrain.
  • + 0
 @WolfStoneD: really only 45c? My mtb has 60c...
  • - 2
 I like 27.5 - - not buy no
Plus tires I like regular size range shizzle -29 r? rode it-whatever/ so so not excited -pimped out my 27.5 with all the latest shit-for $10000 whatever their selling doesn't even have the shit I did it myself better for less-

I think what they need to do for dual susp is have a f*cking size between medium and large -like a large frame length with a medium frame length seat tube -already wake up industry the seat post should be what keeps my toes off the ground and falling Over when I stop cause they go hundreds of millimeters these days.

Extra wheelbase means more space wasted and some new fangled geometry-around my garage in my closet stuffed into an SUV or on a plane I don't want anything bigger -the market hypers will keep cramming shit down our throats -thankfully the component makers come up solutions to their solutions-

When I get a 29r I'll call you but it will be never ish so hold your breath big 3 for my$$$ and everyone else breath easy and ride on!
  • + 1
 I'll never ride non-plus tires on a hardtail again after having my Big Honzo DL. Thing rips..
  • + 2
 "cobble gobbler"...hahaha
  • + 0
 I entertaining the idea of converting my 29er hardtail to 27+ after I pick up my next full squish 29er. Having a spare set of DT 350 hubs around makes this worth exploring.
  • + 1
 I think a lot of riders baulk at plus tires because they have been deemed "for beginers".
  • + 1
 The honeymoon is over, divorce is in the horizon! Back to the fun loving, playful, younger 26!
  • + 1
 If 27.5+ bikes are the "stable option" then I don't like it. I like my bike how I like my women....unstable.
  • + 2
 Fat tires are old school 2005 I have 2.6 on the rear and 3.0 in the front
  • + 1
 Ya 2.8 Rekons suck on a 40 mm rim..also dont try surfing that sucks as well..tell all of your friends
  • + 2
 So, marketing is giving advise
  • + 1
 All the bike brands selling the same bikes with different sized wheels are laughing the whole way to the bank........
  • + 1
 Where do the rich people chat that can afford new technology. These poor people with 26" tires are an ass beating!!
  • + 1
 I have no brother, I'm the one who ate shit pie
  • + 1
 #2.1hutchinsonontherocksforlife
  • + 0
 #our first world problems.
When did "too many choices"
stop you from Riding?
  • + 0
 When I spent all weekend researching what sealant to use. lol
  • + 1
 a little support for everyone 26" would be nice.
  • - 1
 The fact that everyone is so mad makes me mad. Just chill the F#%$ out and stop reading if it gets you this up in arms people.
  • + 1
 When will you do the fatbikes fad dying?
  • + 0
 Come here in the winter. The trail centre is packed with people that can ride year round now and don't have to stop because of snow. They are almost as popular as regular bikes now.
  • + 1
 @WolfStoneD: then the answer is never
  • + 0
 @WolfStoneD: I ride wait for it - - ------- 2.1 with car studs and have a blast, the more ice the better if its too soft for me then its too soft for 2.8 or even 3, 4 or 5 you have to match the tire to the terrain, deep powder or soft sugar best strap on the boards or board, not point in flogging a dead horse.

The float they tell you you get from 3,4,5" tires is ok if you have 20hp on tap. The amount of time extra they can ride vs my 2.1 is maybe 2-3 days a season, I enjoy myself on my converted hard tail, but if you like spending $2000 plus on a bike that weights the same and uses $200 tires be my guest, we are all free to make our choices, just don't tell me I need 3,4,5" tires to ride in the winter and have fun, and I can run 1.5 for a summer beer bike, maybe a bit tuff on $200 fat bike tires in summer.
Ta Ta
  • + 2
 @lake-st: Cool story bro. I didn't tell you that you needed fat tires. I just said they are popular here. Lots of us rode in the snow way before fat bikes.

You do you.
  • + 1
 Better question: who cares
  • + 2
 *Old man yells at cloud*
  • + 1
 Hans Rey ruled (circa 1994)

GT were cool once
  • + 1
 It's bollocks, anything over 2.35 is slow as fuck in my opinion
  • + 1
 if 27.5+ is gone imagine 29+
  • + 0
 Dually 4X bikes with a fat as you can fit aggressive tyres are super fun...IMO of course.
  • + 1
 Well..... This thread got fkng jacked!!
  • + 1
 i ride a 29er...a 27.5...and 26er bike... so what...just have fun
  • + 1
 Quick healing to Clayton!
  • + 1
 Forget 27.5+, we need more 29+ bikes.
  • + 2
 HELL YEAH
  • + 1
 Gtfoh
  • + 1
 Ive been wondering for 2 years what on earth 27.5+ is...
  • + 1
 Gwin, is that you at Maxxis? Can't just be a coincidence!
  • + 1
 NADT
  • + 1
 wow, shocking
  • + 1
 What happens to 26 plus?
  • + 2
 Just a fart in a windstorm.
  • + 3
 That was 2002 dude.
  • + 1
 @WolfStoneD:
Remember the rocky Mountain slayer? I thought they said you are able to put 26 plus tires in there and a lot of people liked that
  • + 0
 MTB marketing is now branch of federal government... Scam artists!
  • + 0
 + wheel size is big BS... nothing to do here
  • + 5
 So I take it you haven't ridden one. It's actually quite a great wheel size.
  • + 1
 @seraph: did try on a test day. Not convinced at all.
  • + 1
 @seraph: It doesn't work for everybody. I like 26 and 29 but never got on with 27.5 or 27.5 plus.
  • + 3
 Really depends.. for me when theres lots of small bumps (roots or stones) and flat turns its amazing when dry, but in the wet or hardpacked berms its pretty shitty
  • + 1
 @RedBurn: me neither.

Awful things; the WTB tyres on the bike I was lent wee made of cheese and the undamped bounce became noticeable as the speeds picked up. The grips for braking and cornering felt much worse than my usual Minions.

Mate runs Surly tyres but they're rather porky.
  • + 1
 @RedBurn: test day =/= actually riding one for an extended period of time.
  • - 3
 Danger! Danger! Danger! Can not compute.....
  • + 1
 Warning, Will Robinson!
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