Ask Pinkbike: Fixing Rattling Brake Pads, Best Backcountry Bike, & Are Shock Lockouts Necessary?

 That's an awesome suggestion.

 im going to do this right now.

 But don't the maguras have magnets on the pistons to stop rattle? Good idea regardless

 I put an o-ring around the fins on each pad, so there’s effectively a wee rubber bumper at the front and back edge. Silent.

 @Tmackstab: this is what I thought... but if you put some non-magura pad with alloy backplates, you are screwed ? anyways, I mostly use the 2 pieces pads, no the annoying 4 piece ones which need the screw... cheers..

 Best tip I've seen in a while!

 Altogether now - HAAAACKS N BODGES

 @Tmackstab: Fkn magnets. How do they work?

 @thustlewhumber: unpaired electron spins

 @thustlewhumber: ions and poles and stuff. its technical

 Unless your name is Ludo May. Then you climb the trails too

But, I agree completely that a firm pedalling platform (not necessarily a full lockout, just firm setting) is great to have in Alpine regions with long or steep climbs.

 Correct. The amount of uproad enduroing we do here is nuts.

 Wow, no single track climbing in the alps!!?

 I just rode the Colorado Trail (supported trail riding) and didn't touch my lockout once during 44,000 feet of climbing (entirely on single track). The added traction benefits far outweigh the efficiency gains of locking out. Fire roads are a different story though - I'll still lock out on those.

 @jrocksdh: there is, but not everywhere, and some if it is so steep it’s only doable for short portions or better enjoyed on the way down

 @Greghoin: that sounds awesome but climbing single track is funner than climbing fire roads. Still it must be sweet knowing you don’t have to worry about running any one over on your way down

 @Greghoin: agree, same here, except some little up and down uptrail, it's almost impossible climb single tracks... long (and steep) fireroads. Always have to pedal on 15% climb...

 @jrocksdh: there are, of course, but quite often uphill trails aren't as suitable for modern enduro bikes with high gears and slack geometry. So the majority of the riders just don't bother and use (fire)roads instead (or push), unless they've got an eMTB.

I'm generalizing a bit, naturally there are riders who like to battle technical uphills, but in my experience they're in a small minority.

 @jrocksdh: Dont counfuse that with no singletrack descending.....cuz if you like multi hour long singletrack descents, we have tons.

 I do a mix of road, fireroad, and singletrack climbing on my 170mm coil. I never touch the suspension settings. Unless you are standing pedaling, the bob is so minimal, it is just silly.

 You don't need a lockout in the alps, tried and tested. But a shock with an adjustable low speed compression (the open position, if a switch is present) enables you to dial in a bit more LSC to lessen any possible bob without influencing the suspension performance when it comes to dealing with bumps. Tried and tested as well through a (forced) shock change where the new one has only a 3 position platform level as opposed to the LSC setting of the old and an on off switch.

 @mtbluka: modern e duro bikes have wide range 1x drivetrain and steep seat tubes. It's not a problem anymore, semi recent history is what you described. We've moved on from there, luckily. Modern enduro bikes climb exceptionally well.

 @Primoz: You're absolutely correct, the bikes climb better than ever - on the (fire)roads It's just an odd phenomena that no one is utilizing that exceptional climbing ability on the trails, apart from a few exceptions. Yup, people have move on from there, to the easier access roads...

 @mtbluka: My ultra long 29er allowed me to climb a non-fire road, steep as hell technical climb on the first try with it, where there was no chance on my old 2015 very-modern-at-the-time 27,5" enduro bike. Plus it's a bit of an generalisation that everybody only climbs on fireroads if I'm honest. But yeah, a big factor in this is the steepness of the terrain. It's hard to climb on singletrails when you need Eagle and a 30T front ring on a 29er just to get up the fireroads

 @Primoz: what you're listing is anecdotal evidence and own biased opinions presented as "facts" (eg. claiming one doesn't need lockout). Of course, they don't "need it", but it makes things easier or more efficient in some circumstances. Just like pedal platforms and adjustable LSC does - and some would say you don't "need" those either.

Observe the trends and compare the numbers on bikers climbing (fire)roads vs. trails, especially technical ones, and after carefully reading the previous posts you will see that the generalization (with already mentioned exceptions ) is a pretty good assessment of the current state.

 @mtbluka: Physics doesn't deal with opinions, even less so biased ones. And of course that goes for anecdotal evidence too. It deals with numbers and therefore with facts.

It's relatively easy to design a bike that has the correct antisquat level to reduce pedal bob. Sure, you get some, you lose some and other characteristics will change, but it's up to the designer to define the priorities and make the bike what it is. As for LSC vs. lockout, the lockout closes off the compression damping circuit and relies on the blowoff valve to start moving, which makes it very harsh. Dialing in the correct amount of LSC makes the shock much less harsh which manifests itself in the ride comfort. In the levy vs. kazimer lockout battle of last year (?) I actually tested out my lock switch on my Super Deluxe RCT in earnest for the first time on a flat gravel road. My bike bobbed about the same as in the open position, but I was jumping around over all the potholes, that the suspension nicely took care of in the open position.

Design the suspension not to bob and then let it work. If a passive, mechanical solution is achievable, it is ALWAYS better than 'active' solutions (for example live valve) as those are reactive through a feedback loop as opposed to the inherent design of the system.

As for climbing, I guess we are back to anecdotal evidence, even though you bashed those in the first line of your comment. But nevertheless, my anecdotal evidence is that I've been riding the same (the exact same) trails for the past 20 years, first off with an XC hardtail and then with different all mountain/enduro/trail bikes. The only thing that has changed is the speed on the climbs and the descends, other than that it's more or less the same. Except for one trail, where I always went up the long way around, on the (asphalt and gravel) road, but since I started riding trail bikes, I've also started taking the single trail, which is much shorter, on the way up too. So my personal anecdotal evidence (or observing the trends) is opposite to yours.

 @Primoz: "Physics doesn't deal with opinions, even less so biased ones. And of course that goes for anecdotal evidence too. It deals with numbers and therefore with facts." -> precisely. And yet you contradict yourself twice in the last two posts. Anecdotal evidence is exactly what you're listing, especially in the last "me me me" paragraph.

Mentioning "testing" lock out switches without providing measurements and timing is again anecdotal without a stopwatch, HR monitor, and power meter.

The comment thread started from the premise that lockout and/or firm pedalling platform is great to have in the Alps, also because not all suspension designs are equal. But no, you went the other way "you don't need it" ... as said, where do you draw the line, you don't "need" gears and suspension either, just look at the SS rigid enthusiasts.

Last but not least, provide a number then, eg. how many people on a popular local hill climb trails, especially where there's a (fire)road option. In my experience, this number is almost 0, zero, niente. Not saying there aren't any, but I've yet to see someone climbing trails up the local hills if there's a road option. Hence the assessment that's the general trend.

 Name checks out

 @Longtravel.. this guy gets it. COIL RULES!

 I have a coil with a climb switch. And I’m really glad I have that switch.

 @Upduro: If it is Cane Creek, it isn't quite a lock out. I guess that makes quite a difference as you still get to enjoy the improved traction on the climbs (which the suspension allows) unlike lock out which takes that advantage away from you too.

 @vinay: DHX2, and yeah it’s not a complete lockout but enough to prevent any pedal bob during steady climbs. We don’t really have any techy climbs in the alps, it’s all fire roads, so I don’t need a huge amount of traction during climbing anyways.

 The Ohlins has a "climbing" position on the TTX, I never use it. Pedal bob is so minimal on my 170mm E29.

 Even the Scott “lockout” position isn’t actually zero travel, pretty sure.

 @masonskis: That's true, it's just very, very stiff. Technically there's a little bit of travel but so little that it wouldn't make much difference if it was solid.

 Can confirm, I never use it on my Riot

 100%. I'm a recent balance convert; a 170mm bike with a coil shock should not be this pedalable... yet here we are

 Ride my rail with dudes running 100mm and I'm right behind them on the way up. Then I shake their asses and have a blast on the downs. No lockout, just a nice stiff suspension set-up and some CBF.

 Off topic I know, but how good is a Dremel? And to think I baulked at the purchase for about a decade.

 @iamamodel: one of the most handy little tools there are.

 @iamamodel: They are brilliant, and the cordless ones aren't terrible either. Get one, and make sure you buy Dremel cutting discs for it, as aftermarket ones snap much quicker in my experience.

 @GilesSTurner: the cord is the worst thing about it. Time to upgrade! Ta.

 I think this question provides the answer. Kidding, couldn't help myself.

 Speed induced brain jiggles are actually proven to be the opposite of brain damage. The flow state is your friend.

 My suggestions is that when you ride, imagine that your head is floating down the trail. Two reasons: it won't jiggle around so much, and you will ride smoother as your brain will automatically move your arms and legs up and over obstacles like it does when you walk up and down stairs (you don't dead sailor stairs, because you don't think about them).

 @iamamodel: play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.secretexit.dismount&hl=en_US

 @Spindelatron: LOL.

 @Spindelatron: I played the shit out of Porrasturvat back in the day but I never knew it was on mobile!

 Have never noticed in 5 years on Saints

 Heavy rattling on m820 saints. Two different sets.

 @spenswick: sorry to hear that

 You have bike tinnitus. Lots of cures online.

 @twonsarelli: The o-ring method above does solve it however.

 I hadn't until I bought a new frame that appears to be quieter than the old one - I now notice pad rattle on my zee's. to be honest not enough to make me do something about it! Although I do like the idea of the small spring in the retention pin.

 I have XT M8000 4 pots and I've read about rattles many times, but never experienced them. I'm picky about having a silent bike too, so I'd notice. Maybe I'm just lucky.

 Keep the fins. Stretch a high-temp silicon o-ring around the base of the fins where they contact the calliper body. Silence.

 @spenswick: one around each fin (ie two total)? Or one around the two fins?

 Those aren’t return springs and they have zero to do with rotor gap. All they are supposed to do is hold the pads against the piston so they don’t rattle. They just don’t do that very well.

 @spenswick: ayeeee nice tip

 @powderturns: Apologies, that was unclear. One around each pad at the base of the fins. I don't recall the exact size that I've used but generally you're forced to buy a full assorted set anyway so you can try a few different sizes. I've found that the ideal size ends up being about 2mm in diameter after stretch. Doesn't impede movement and provides sufficient isolation.

 @AccidentalDishing a very small (3mm) strip of stretched mastic tape on the caliper body under the fins. Cheap, easy, fast - zero noise after a year.

 A small bit of cut road bike tube around (vertically) each fin works as well to silence things... and free if you have them around! Although, I'm sure it could impact heat retention.

 @Someoldfart: If you spread them enough out of frustration they sure seem to. I Agree that isnt their intended purpose though.

To clarify, I am already running
Non finned pads in search of silence.

 @rschmidt1: Okay, so find a roadie's bike and cut out some of his tube. Got it.

 @powderturns: the easiest solution would be to make the back plate wedge shaped like pretty much every other brake manufacturer so the pad can fit snuggly and migrate outwards when it heats up instead of making a square pad with two expansion gaps ether side but expecting that level of technical expertise from shimano is asking a bit much really. To be fair though I can definitely tell the difference between finned and non finned pads even though the noise is ridiculous.

 @edulmes: maybe, but have 200front and 180 rear. And always had problems with rear, until used finned pads.

 @edulmes: enduro-mtb.com/en/rotor-size-myth

 @jaydawg69: that is so f*cking interesting

 Just did it a few days ago. You could do it on an XC, but not likely a racing one. It really does depend on how skilled you are.

 It’s no so much that the decent is hard but you might be totally gassed after Into the Mystic. It is rated blue but there was talk of changing the rating to black to account for descending fatigued. Perhaps a bike that leaves you less tired would be more safe? I’d hardtail it no problem. But once you’re done LOTS, there are some pretty challenging trails down. Some easier too but it’s nice to have a more capable bike at that point.

 The pads need to travel along that pin, to recenter. If it's bunged up with build-up, your pads won't relocated as they should. Way better ways to fix that issue.