Cycling Brands Under Scrutiny in Gun Control Debate

Feb 28, 2018 at 13:29
by Mike Kazimer  
Giro Montaro helmet

Blackburn Toomanator 16 review
Camelbak s updated Mule LR

Savage Arms
Vista Outdoor's brands include Giro, Camelbak, Blackburn, and Savage Arms.

Amidst the heated gun control debate that's currently taking place in North America in the wake of a mass shooting in Parkland, Florida, sporting goods retailers and consumers are facing difficult decisions concerning the brands they purchase from.

Vista Outdoor, the parent company of Bell, Giro, Blackburn, and Camelbak, also lists Savage Arms, a rifle and shotgun manufacturer, and Federal Ammunition among its brands. This, along with Vista Outdoor's support of the National Rifle Association, has spurred a social media uproar along with boycotts and petitions urging retailers and consumers to cease their support of the company and its affiliated brands.

After a petition on Change.org that was created with the goal of convincing Mountain Equipment Co-op (MEC) to stop selling products made by Vista Outdoor received over 50,000 signatures, MEC, Canada's largest outdoor retailer, decided to stop any orders with the Vista Outdoor brands (Bollé, Bushnell, CamelBak, Camp Chef, Jimmy Styks) that they carried. In an open letter, David Labistour, MEC's CEO, wrote, "I hope that you will see that the decision we made today is balanced and considered and positions us to inspire a wider discussion throughout our industry and North America."

Vista is a relatively new owner of Bell, Giro, and Blackburn – they purchased the companies in 2016 from BRG Sports for $400 million, while Camelbak was purchased in 2015 for $412.5 million from Compass Diversified Holdings.
Vista Outdoor

Many of the employees of the cycling-related companies worked for the brands before they were owned by a parent company with ties to the NRA.

On the other side of the debate, the NRA released this response to the growing number of companies who have cut ties with the organization: “Some corporations have decided to punish NRA membership in a shameful display of political and civic cowardice. In time, these brands will be replaced by others who recognize that patriotism and determined commitment to Constitutional freedoms are characteristics of a marketplace they very much want to serve.”

Along with the petitions, several bike shops have taken steps to support the boycott. Erik Tonkin, the owner of Sellwood Cycles in Portland, Oregon, issued the following statement: “Sellwood Cycle Repair will support a boycott of Vista Outdoor. This means we will not buy products from Bell, Giro, Blackburn and CoPilot — and that we could even return existing inventory, which is substantial.”


Editor's Note: the gun control debate is an extremely contentious issue. Comments that devolve into name-calling, trolling, and hate speech will not be tolerated.


Updated 3/1/18, 9:00am PST to reflect MEC's decision to stop carrying Vista Outdoor brands.


2,047 Comments

  • + 651
 As a consumer, I'm interested in the kind of hijinx the companies I buy from get up to. So, thank you Pinkbike. I think this is relevant.
  • + 12
 Me too
  • - 485
flag brandwinnie (Feb 28, 2018 at 14:54) (Below Threshold)
 Your prime minister is Justin Trudeau, bro.
  • + 746
 It’s nice to see Pinkbike report on something mundane like gun control instead of something inflammatory and polarizing that people are overly-passionate about, like E-Bikes or UCI Downhill.
  • + 375
 @brandwinnie: and your prime minister is Donald Trump. What's your point?
  • - 259
flag brandwinnie (Feb 28, 2018 at 14:57) (Below Threshold)
 @YouHadMeAtDrugs: Nah I don't have a prime minister.
  • + 105
 Cheers to that. I can’t change anybody’s mind but I can be the change I wanna see in the world and not buy this shit.
  • - 154
flag theminsta (Feb 28, 2018 at 15:11) (Below Threshold)
 Gun control: taking guns away from legal/law abiding citizens in hopes of decreasing gun misuse by evil/crazy people.

Y'all crazy. The same people that want to give up their guns are the people that think Donald Trump is "literally Hitler".
  • + 245
 @ninjatarian: I like how the US is facing a Mental Health crisis, but blames "gun control" for the violence created by those with mental health issues.

Literally, we could ban all guns tomorrow, yet, people with mental health issues that want to hurt a person or persons will follow their feelings through, as witnessed recently.

In the last 50 years the majority of "mass homicides", with and without guns, were created by people with mental health issues. Of that, the majority of those cases were violent crimes without a firearm.

The media is just good at steering non-critical thinking people in a particular direction.

Maybe if our government had not been gutting funding to mental health programs the last 40'ish years we might have more people NOT losing their coping mechanisms, and then killing a person or persons?

--We can only put so many band-aids on the wound before we bleed out.
  • + 14
 @XCMark: Honestly, the fact that anybody can now 3D print objects in their house kind of negates the theory of being able to ban anything, guns or otherwise. From a purely logistical standpoint, how do you take something away that somebody can right click and print out another? Welcome to the future.
  • + 27
 @XCMark: most intelligent thing I've read on this thread thus far
  • + 53
 @DanPlante: just letting everyone know... savage brand firearms are absolute garbage. I am not sure how many gun enthusiasts are on pinkbike but for god’s sake do not buy savage.
  • - 51
flag jclnv (Feb 28, 2018 at 15:31) (Below Threshold)
 @XCMark: So the US is (allegedly) a nation containing many mentally ill people. Then answer this simple question:

1. Guns should be legal to own in the US.
2. Guns should not be legal to own in the US.

If the question is correct then the only logical answer is (unless you want never ending masscares of innocent people) is 2. If not, and you still think people should have the right to own guns, then you are in someway responsible for the deaths.

Simple as that.
  • + 265
 @jclnv: Heres the thing. The guns that Savage makes are the least restricted type in Canada. A 12 year old can have his license to have a shotgun, and many do. So... why aren't there hundreds of mass shootings in canada, where such a weapon is very easy to LEGALLY obtain? It's the people, the culture, not the guns.
  • + 3
 @XCMark: very good argument buddy!
  • + 212
 @XCMark: Why is it one or the other? Can't two factors be to blame? And can't we work to fix both? Will someone with mental health issues ultimately carry out their plan? Maybe, but wouldn't a few road blocks to buying an assault weapon help? Maybe in the weeks or days longer that it would take, someone notices something and get them help.

And its not just about mass shooting (even though thats what drives the news). Its about all shootings. Yes some are carried out by people with documented mental health issues, but many are not. Many times people just snap. Do you think there aren't people out there who have killed someone and regret it? Who if even given even a few days before being able to act on their aggression would have chosen not to do what they did? Or people that commit suicide? Same thing.

To act like the easy availability of guns isn't a major contributing factor all the gun related deaths we have in this country is a cop out.
  • + 82
 High school kids need love, guidance, roll models, goals, friends, hobbies etc....last thing they need to be dealing with is politcal bs and gun control. Its a shame, a real fricken shame.
  • + 125
 By boycotting any of the products, you aren't hurting the Vista corporation. By doing so hurts athletes, freelancers, and people who work for these companies who are mountain bikers just trying to make a living. Vista could give a flying fuck about anything else but themselves and unfortunately these kind of things only hurt the bike industry more.
  • + 56
 @XCMark: And yet the NRA continues to support politicians who refuse to create and fund a federal mental health program based on science. Until the gun lobby gets behind an effective program, I'll always vote to restrict the proliferation of semi autos and high capacity magazines. And no, I'm not happy with that decision. Guns are fun, and most owners are fine.
  • + 5
 @sino428: Very good points. It is not just one factor, so multiple factors, including gun control/restrictions, need to be implemented as measures/roadblocks.
  • + 9
 @YouHadMeAtDrugs: As I said, if that's the case then would you want them to be legal in a country with that culture?
  • + 101
 @XCMark: So other developed countries have similar rates of mental illness as the US. If the heart of this problem is mental health why are mass murders by guns only a problem in the US? Oh right, because we have different gun laws.

Oh and also
"various epidemiological studies over the past two decades show that the vast majority of people with severe mental illnesses, such as schizophrenia, bipolar disorder or severe depression, are no more likely to be violent than anyone else."
www.cnn.com/2017/11/06/health/guns-mental-health-texas-trump/index.html

Wamp wamp
  • + 31
 Watch out for that suspicious unsavory with the green neon Giro helmet with orange camelback, might have a Savage Arms loaded with Fed ACP's. Honestly I never knew those awesome brands were under the same umbrella. I use federal in all my firearm's , have owned multitudes of Giro and Bell products, and have multiple Camelbaks ,all outstanding quality. Honestly if you looked at "big Business". umbrella Corps. you would be surprised what companies fall into them. Does that mean stores should take a negative stance against Giro because Vista owns Federal ???? Can't see the logic there, these interest groups have me looking for a very small violin for target practice tonight. Honestly thats a hell of a portfolio of high caliber companies,,, no pun intended. I will continue to support each,,, Savage is high on my list for my next riffle. Can I get a job at Vista Outdoors ,,,,Please!!!! now that's my favorite umbrella Corp hands down.

Bad events are always going to happen. Awesome events happen when Giro, Camelbak are there.
  • + 8
 @sino428: @sino428: You know assault weapons aren't availible to the public right? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban
also what changes would you suggest?
  • + 7
 @YouHadMeAtDrugs: They also make semi-auto rifles. Found this under the category of "tactical and defense": www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/MSR15Patrol

Pretty sure you can't buy that in Canada.
  • + 1
 @freestyIAM: Gun education is lacking. Also do you think someone will commit a crime in front of armed people or unarmed? Not saying there is a major problem with mental illness but i dont believe it is due to gun laws either.
  • + 66
 @foxxyman: To me, that reads like a paranoia manifesto.

Arming yourself to protect yourself from people who are armed and want to harm you.

Absolute insanity.
  • + 20
 @parisgore: I agree with this. This only hurts camelbak and its athletes and employees.

@XCMark: it's both. The fact that there is a mental health crisis in the US is the reason we need control. and by control I don't mean ban them, because lets face it, they're fun as hell, but we do need to figure out a way to stop people who do this from getting their hands on guns.
  • - 7
flag ybsurf (Feb 28, 2018 at 16:08) (Below Threshold)
 Agree happy I don't own those brand and will boycott them right now the less sales they make the less money they have to support nra and other association for guns.
  • + 2
 @jclnv: well guns as a backup, what we really need is our schools, and really our families, to teach that shooting a bunch of people because you are mad, does not solve problems, no matter what you see in the movies and tv, and what you do in video games (i.e. fortnite: battle royale)

prevention is the best weapon
  • - 4
flag spaceofades (Feb 28, 2018 at 16:09) (Below Threshold)
 @jclnv: It's a double edged sword. Take em away, people will be shoot one another in anger. Leave them, and well, that's where we are now.
  • + 3
 @Rattles: you can. It's just behind another licensing wall.
  • + 17
 @thehardtail: You know the assault weapons the expired in 2004 right? You should considering its right there in the link you provided.
  • + 7
 I agree completely on gun education as I'm a product of it and have always operated safely. Raising the age to 21 for riffles is the only change I can see applicable in this situation. How can you buy an AR at 18 but have to wait till 21 for handguns?????? They have to sort a few things but bad people are always going to do bad things dictated by 1000 years of history.

BTW Savage makes a pretty competitive line up,,, def check them out.

I'll come up with 340,000 signatures to squash MEC by the weekend without leaving my county.
  • + 56
 @pedrosalas7: The problem is that to many paranoid people they see no difference between the words "gun control" and "guns banned".
  • + 34
 @XCMark: Agree. Was the Florida shooting (and all the other shootings) horrible? Yes! But, within one day of that shooting, in a single evening, you had more handguns killing people without the "news" reporting anything. Chicago alone is a war zone. Baltimore, New Orleans, Detroit, DC....since Florida, hundreds (literally) have been shot, and dozens murdered. No media, no news. If this is about saving lives, then we must focus more on real statistics, and real strategies. Just as a random example, In India, rural farmers have committed suicide (the numbers in the thousands) because one bad crop (from crappy GMO seeds) has laid them out financially. Then they have to take out loans (at agregious interest rates) to stay solvent. But, most can never pay the debt, and eventually just kill themselves. Florida is nothing compared to the sadness and horror that 'agriculture' is creating. How many articles on Pinkbike have there been about boycotting Monsanto (or any firm such as General Mills or McDonalds) from buying there GMO products? Florida was bad. Innocent kids getting blasted is bad! The sadness for the families is unconscionable, BUT...the truth is...way more people are dying from handguns (on a nightly basis) in America, and there is zero talk. Agree we need bans on certain firearms, and much tougher sentences for those caught carrying illegal arms. But, as usual, the media is going nuts with this (and it is also being used as a tool for politics).
  • - 2
 @fecalmaster: Handguns are easier to sneak around and you have a record of what decisions you will make im guessing would be the justification. Cant really sneak around a rifle in your pants.(unless youre a world record holder for that type of thing) lol
  • + 11
 @XCMark: " I would LOVE to see some evidence of "mass homicides" being committed with something other than a gun. Boy supporting NRA is not doing very well for your brain. Please share how your math is adding up. Funny how you on the same sentence said something about non-critical thinking....LOL

"In the last 50 years the majority of "mass homicides", with and without guns, were created by people with mental health issues. Of that, the majority of those cases were violent crimes without a firearm."
  • + 5
 @thehardtail: Ummm, you mean they weren't until 2004 when Republicans in their infinite wisdom decided to overturn the assault weapons ban?
  • + 20
 @XCMark: the mental health issue can't really be solved completely there have always been psychopathic and "mentally ill" people and there always will be x amount of them it's a natural human trait that can be beneficial in certain circumstances if the person is nurtured properly. If they''re nurtured in another way it can lead to problems and it's impossible to guarantee every person who has these kind of mental traits is nurtured properly. Guns can do a lot of harm very quickly so if access wasn't so easy then that would obviously decrease the damage done. Also what about all the gang related gun crime and shootings by police officers alot this is done by people who are considered to be relatively sane. If guns weren't as available then there wouldn't be as big a black market for them. Also police officers wouldn't be as paranoid that they're going to have a gun pulled on them.
Couldn't people wanting guns to feel safe or free be looked at as a mental health issue.
  • + 13
 @ryanm189: Your argument boils down to "we can't save all the people, so we shouldn't save any of them". Why would anyone waste their time trying to dialogue about handgun solutions when they can't even get past bump stocks and high capacity magazines? You're calling Chicago a war zone but arguing for the status quo.
  • + 1
 @sino428: whoops didn't see that but also it says it wasn't useful at all, guess i thought automatic weapons were banned cause they aren't allowed in my state.
www.quora.com/In-which-states-is-it-legal-to-own-a-fully-automatic-weapon
also what would you define as a assault weapon?
M1 garand?
  • + 8
 @ryanm189: Good point. So far in 2018 the USA is running at nearly 40 gun deaths per day. www.gunviolencearchive.org
  • + 1
 @bvd453: Yeah i know i didn't read enough there. but also it did say that the ban had no effect on the criminals which why would it if they're gonna do something illegal they'll do it with anything
  • - 3
 @fecalmaster: also yeah looks like savage makes some sweet stuff. but still gotta wait a few years till i can buy due to age and location plus money
  • + 24
 Bell/Giro, etc... none of them have anything to do with fire arms so what sort of hijinx are you referring to?

This is just fueling the fires of misinformation and damaging sales of good brands... and the jobs of good people.
  • + 63
 @XCMark: Hard to be a mass shooter without a mass shooting weapon...

I'm always surprised how many Americans are willfully blind to the patently obvious solution. After the Bosnian conflict the UN, funded by the US, built a bunch of incinerators in Bosnia and Croatia and went door to door and gathered up all the weapons and destroyed them. It was the only way to stop people, who were formerly neighbors, from killing each other. Guess what? It worked.
  • + 5
 @Rattles: of course you can. And any other AR15 variant.
  • - 20
flag thehardtail (Feb 28, 2018 at 16:43) (Below Threshold)
 @Otago: you know you could say any semi auto weapons is mass shooting weapon. the world record holder can shoot 8 bullets in a second www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzHG-ibZaKM and a mass shooting is defined by 5 or more people injured or worse.
Also do you actually prefer having to wait on someone to get to you and also having to call them instead of being able to defend your own life from ill-intentioned people / corrupt governments?
  • - 23
flag foxxyman (Feb 28, 2018 at 16:44) (Below Threshold)
 @Otago: i will NEVER give up my gun. I love hunting. I don’t want my country to have have total militarian control. I will become a criminal if the order is to give up my gun.
  • - 1
 @thehardtail: people do just that don't they? They put it down the leg of baggy trousers and walk with a limp. Or is that just in movies?
  • - 1
 @nouseforaname: because they're semi autos not full or burst only difference is looks a m1 garand will be as deadly as a ar 15 its all in the intention of the user.
  • + 1
 Thanks. I know that. I’ve owned half a dozen AR15s. People going after a ban on AR15s are either

A: Idiots who don’t know what they’re talking about

B: Actually wanting to ban ALL guns but don’t have the balls to say that upfront. @thehardtail:
  • - 9
flag onemanarmy Plus (Feb 28, 2018 at 16:52) (Below Threshold)
 @Otago: The U.S. is not Bosnia. Not even remotely close.

Beyond that... wtf is a mass shooting weapon? Because... hand guns, hunting rifles, home made explosives, shot guns and kitchen knives have all been used in mass homicides.

Amazing me how many people that don't know wtf they're talking about preach like their opinion is gospel.
  • + 31
 @onemanarmy: would you rather fight an angry man who has a knife or a gun? I know which I'd choose
  • + 56
 @krashbc: I'm not sure that's my argument. I'm saying...the media (and politics) is levering the hell out of this, and ignoring reality. Where the hell was CNN (and now Pinkbike) when Chicago 1.5 years ago had like 10-15 people dying a night with handguns? Where is the media (or even the general public - you and I) when atrocities are happening in India, where farmers (in the thousands - not just 17 kids at a school) are resorting to suicide because "agriculture" is forcing their death. Florida was sad, totally agree. But it was dramatic. It gets the headlines, and worse....it fuels the fire of scapegoating. There are already dozens of comments on here from righteous people who want to toss out their Giro and Camlebak equipment and go buy something 'honest.' It's wrong. It's immature. Our bike alone is false! "False." Whatever that is, right? Imagine all the mining to create bike parts? Alloy, titanium, steel etc. How bout electric cars that people in California feel so proud about? A typical car uses 50 pounds of copper wire. A Tesla or equivalent uses 150-300 pounds, and then cobalt (mostly from war torn Africa), lithium, nickel. E-cars, i'd argue are WORSE than conventional automobiles. I'm saying, people are hypocrites, and like a typical tribal community, we love playing the shame game, and then enforce mob rule. We've been doing this for thousands of years, and it's insane. We must address mental health, the laws, and also personal responsibility. Why do parents buy Xbox's for their kids where they can practice killing people all night long, as 'entertainment?' Hollywood is a joke, with all these egocentric, narcassistic actor/actresses holding guns thinking they look cool. And, we the people, gobble it up. I'm arguing that life is full of paradox, contrast and irony. We must really study the facts, and not allow hysteria and politics to lever situations.
  • + 10
 @Hoob93: If an angry man comes into my home with a gun you're damn right I'd rather have a gun. No criminals give a crap if guns are illegal or legal.
  • - 3
 @XCMark: well said.
  • + 43
 @YouHadMeAtDrugs:

It’s absolutely the culture here. Americans suffer from a variety of previously unseen, hard to diagnose spiritual (not religious, but the core spirit of our country) ailments, hence our current President.

It’s not the guns, it’s something far more insidious. Common sense gun control will help. But the sickness will remain for some time I’m afraid.

That’s what happens when you raise a people to think they deserve everything without having to earn any of it. We’ve somewhat lost our way, and it will take another generation or two to find it again.
  • + 31
 @onemanarmy: in my country you'd have to be crazy to worry about a criminal breaking in with a gun they're controlled well
  • - 21
flag onemanarmy Plus (Feb 28, 2018 at 17:00) (Below Threshold)
 @MasterSlater: Common sense gun control is already in place. You have to be certain ages, pass certain tests, background tests and wait... etc.

If people want to kill people they're gonna find weapons through any means they can. Sometimes that's legal, sometimes that's stealing family members legal fire arms... sometimes that illegally purchasing fire arms.

You don't see europeans banning delivery trucks.
  • + 14
 @onemanarmy: nicely avoiding the question the nra has taught you well lol
  • + 12
 @onemanarmy: delivery trucks are useful tools not weapons designed to kill
  • - 14
flag onemanarmy Plus (Feb 28, 2018 at 17:05) (Below Threshold)
 @Hoob93: avoiding your pointless stupid question.... what does me fighting an armed person have to do with this... at all... or the NRA? You're just latching on to media hyped directives with no information or opinions of your own.

But just so you're pleased... neither. I'm not armed. Why the hell would I fight someone armed with anything? And beyond that it depends on conditions.

Seriously man... that was a ridiculous question.
  • + 33
 @YouHadMeAtDrugs: Yup, American culture is something else. Americans don't respect guns. They have a fascination with it that's bordering on a love affair. Oh shit, I live here!
  • + 14
 @onemanarmy: its a rhetorical question designed to make you thing do you even know how to. No it wasn't a stupid question. You said "Beyond that... wtf is a mass shooting weapon? Because... hand guns, hunting rifles, home made explosives, shot guns and kitchen knives have all been used in mass homicides. " I was trying to get you to see that a maniac intent on mass suicide with a knife is no where near as dangerous as the same person with a gun.
  • - 11
flag onemanarmy Plus (Feb 28, 2018 at 17:15) (Below Threshold)
 @Hoob93: That's your country.

In mine... dude got shot right next to the damned hospital last night. Pretty sure it wasn't an AR-15 and not a legally purchased gun.


I'm all for regulating fire arm purchases. But selection one type of weapon and making it illegal isn't the way to go about it. Forcing law abiding citizens to turn over weapons isn't the answer.

Things that work on one populace won't always work on another.
  • + 6
 @uphill-blues: I wouldn't make a blanket statement like that. I think the issue is much deeper than fire arms.

This generation is screwed up.
  • - 1
 @fecalmaster: please dont leave your country. We do not want your type here.
  • - 9
flag onemanarmy Plus (Feb 28, 2018 at 17:19) (Below Threshold)
 @Hoob93: B.S.
  • + 9
 @onemanarmy: but have hope that one day the black market can be controlled. If the guns weren't available legally there wouldn't be as big a black market.
  • + 4
 @Hoob93: Do you know how many fire arms are in this country? It would take you 30 years to functionally institute that.


I'd love to disarm American gangs and criminals. I have tons of friends in law enforcement who I'd love to know weren't facing armed criminals daily.

Believe me... I do believe there's a better solution. But what's being proposed now isn't it.
  • + 19
 @onemanarmy: 30 years that's not bad better start now to save your children
  • - 4
flag onemind123 (Feb 28, 2018 at 17:27) (Below Threshold)
 @Hoob93: stop that logic. Arm em up for their own protextion.
  • + 1
 @parisgore: exactly! Withholding business from bell, giro, camelback may hurt them. But the holding companies/investors will sell them or back out before it ever hurts them.
  • + 1
 @onemanarmy: you hit the nail on the head, the company has nothing to do with the NRA, big media is telling pepole to boycott them so people jump on the bandwagon and go at it!
  • + 1
 @Hoob93: i will fight the angry man with my pistol in my hand weather he is armed with a knife gun or what ever he may have.
  • + 5
 @brncr6: yeeeee haaaaaa!
  • - 3
 @Batipapo: Did you not see what happened in France? It was absolutely terrible.....done with a vehicle
  • + 16
 @onemanarmy:

No. Common sense gun control is not in place. I guess calling it “common sense” assumes that all people hold the same amount of sense. Which is increasingly less evident with each passing day.

Why do people not understand this? Why are you committed to boiling it down into something so simplistic?

It’s about REDUCING the number of people killed. Is that really that hard to understand?

If a kid has a handgun, sure, he’s gonna kill people. But he sure as hell isnt going to be able to kill as MANY people as quickly.

Do you contend that the Vegas shooter could’ve killed that many people with a handgun?

Having an opinion is fine man, but at least be informed as to what’s being talked about.
  • + 16
 @Hoob93: It's difficult because America isn't Europe (and never will be). They have the 2nd ammendment and people want their guns. They can make improvements, but not like Europe or what the 'left' wants. Just not going to happen. Americans are a proud and rowdy bunch. Honestly, I used to laugh when I heard Americans wanted guns in case they had to fight their own government. Just look today how corrupt "democracy" became under the last decade. Totalitarianism always breeds nice and slow, when nobody is looking - and even worse, in times of 'prosperity' when people are a bit lazy and dumb. America (not unlike Europe or Canada) is fraud central and democracy is just a joke - all bought and paid for. So, if you're in Texas, with beef jerky and whisky...you certainly want a little ammo in your quiver.
  • + 2
 @alee90: and one of the biggest mass killings in the US was done with explosives. Bath school massacre in 1927 that killed 38 children. This was done before the AR-15 was made.
  • + 5
 @onemanarmy: Well, we also have gang members, hells angels, mafia, etc. that like to kill each other in the street but... if I'm not a target, why would I need a gun to defend myself!?!? I know you're a pretty f*cked up country but pretty sure that guy knew the one that he shot... You must hide something if you're afraid to be shot!?


Pretty funny that you can't drink alcohol before 21 but you can buy a gun at Wal-Mart !!! lol In Canada, wal-mart is for cheap clothing, food, sport goods, etc but no damn f*cking guns!! You crazy mericans! :O lol
  • + 6
 @XCMark: Yes, mental health needs more attention, but that doesn't mean that more serious gun control isn't part of the problem, and it needs to be multi pronged. We need to reduce the overall ability for any individual to commit mass murder, and there's no civilian use for a gun like the AR15, its variants and other similar weapons. They need to go away.
  • + 21
 @Batipapo: I am vehemently anti-gun but you're misguided here dude.

Remember when a truck ploughed through a crowd in France? Or when some dude went on a stabbing rampage in a Chinese school? Bad people will always find a way...BUT the easiest way to kill en masse is a firearm. They are killing machines, nothing more. America's obsession with them is beyond unhealthy, it's pure insanity now.

I'm only calling you out on this point because, as someone who I agree with, it's important you've got all the facts straight in this debate!
  • - 16
flag TRG22 (Feb 28, 2018 at 18:01) (Below Threshold)
 @foxxyman: I with you! I will never be a sheep, pry it from my cold dead hand...
  • + 3
 @Timo82: in America guns are sporting goods
  • + 29
 @dockboy:

Yes. This is what many gun owners can’t seem to grasp. ‘Cuz yer tryin’ to take there guns derrr-duh-derrr!

There is simply no sound argument for any civilian to have an assault weapon. “But we need our guns to fight the gubment derr-duh-derr!” Never mind the fact that these exact people (generalizing here) put a man in the White House who is committed to destroying our day to day civil liberties that actually mean something.

So the people who are afraid of their guns being taken away by a fanciful tyrannical government, are the ones who elected the actually real (in real f*cking life, not in some gun nut’s rebellion fantasy) autocrat!

I’m sorry, but this is how ignorant these people are.
  • + 4
 @foxxyman: difference between hunting rifles and assault riffles and hang guns
  • + 1
 @ryanm189: well put, so it's a deep set cultural difference.
  • + 4
 @MasterSlater: so trues it's the culture and it will take decades if not never to erase that fight fire with fire and eye for an eye mentally in usa
  • - 3
 @YouHadMeAtDrugs: not my president
  • + 11
 @onemanarmy: not sure what you're talking about. We don't let 18 year-olds buy beer, but they can buy an asault rifle most places. Independent polls show that 70% of US citizens do NOT have their penises confused with their guns and favor some reasonable controls on who gets what kind of gun and how they get it.

Completely aside from the gun issue, I will boycott any companies associated with the NRA because of their ever more hateful, anti-American false patriotism and demagoguery.
  • + 6
 @TRG22: Paranoid much? Which first world country in the 21st century has been overrun by a tyrannical government hellbent on establishing a dictatorship? It's not the 1770's anymore.
  • + 11
 @ryanm189: We're no longer proud and rowdy, but have successfully been separated into two loud,arrogant and stupid tribes.

If it comes to fighting our government, I'll be much better off stopping sending them money than taking on the twelve biggest standing military complexes (the totality of the US military) than with an AR-15.
  • + 12
 @codypup:

The NRA is just like Evangelical Christianity. A rabid, uncompromising, hate-filled ideology that is much more in line with Nazism, and Communism than it is with “freedom” or love for one’s fellow countryman.

But it is through these ideological portals, which hold so much sway for the small and weak minded, that they do become cancers in society.

There are good gun owners and good Christians. But man, these gun nuts are giving y’all a bad name.
  • - 1
 Here we go...

@freestyIAM: "So other developed countries have similar rates of mental illness as the US."

Good point! Now I ask, have those countries been "gutting the funding to mental health programs" the last 40'ish years like the USA?
  • + 23
 what's so hard to understand? this has nothing to do with mental health, this is common sense...

One country has access to weapons including assault rifles. This country had 18 school shootings in the first 2 month of 2018.
The rest of the civilized world like the whole of Europe or Australia has highly restrictive regulations when it comes to guns. Neither Place had a single shooting. Neither place had dead Children.

So what's saver for people to live? More guns or Less?

Well anyway, thanks for pointing it out. i am going to stay away from vist brands for now.
  • - 4
flag foxxyman (Feb 28, 2018 at 18:29) (Below Threshold)
 @ryanm189: exactly
  • - 5
flag foxxyman (Feb 28, 2018 at 18:29) (Below Threshold)
 @onemanarmy: damn right
  • + 0
 @ryanm189: Not just those thing that you mention, but if I might add... 'How f*cking hypocritical do we need to be as a country to look at the deaths caused by firearms and have a debate about that, while never talking about the amount of brown people we kill over there, with rockets and bombs and soldiers; for their resources?'

If we are going to talk about that, and not fix our foreign policy, I believe scarier times are coming!
  • + 2
 @Batipapo: Well, Mr. presumptuous, I stopped supporting the NRA when Turd Nugent became a mouth piece.

But thank you for making things up for yourself to believe. It's always comforting, 100% of the time.
  • - 1
 @Batipapo: 911 attacks, 1993 world trade center bombing, Oklahoma city bombing, a recent rash of rental truck terror attacks, ect
www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/new-york-terror-attack-authorities-struggle-to-prevent-attacks-with-rented-trucks
  • - 3
 @michibretz: 8 out of the 18 actually injured or killed people, the other ten were suicide or just guns fired
www.abc15.com/news/data/school-shootings-in-u-s-when-where-each-shooting-has-occurred-in-2018
and yes australia did a good job not completely due to lack of gun acess it will also be because they raise people correctly there.
And Europe they had the bombings and the truck rammings etc. people finding ways around it because they're raised wrongly and by islam not saying all are bad just that most who follow it strictly will be more violent.
  • + 5
 @dubod22:

It’s not paranoia so much as it’s a narrative that has been built and sold by gun makers here in the US. That the mostly poor and uneducated have bought into.

The NRA isn’t interested so much in gun ownership, as they are in controlling the minds of those gun owners.

The kind of person who buys again either needs to for their profession, or by someone who has decided they are prepared to kill something, whether or not they ever do. It’s the latter set that feeds off the narrative of needing an enemy to defend against.
  • + 1
 @Hoob93: " the mental health issue can't really be solved completely"

Maybe we should stop cutting funding on mental health programs? Though, you are probably to young to realize that the US government has gutted social mental health programs...

... But by all means, please give me another example of how you would fix things and not upset those that believe in the constitution, for protecting you and the rest, from a government that is blowing up brown people so you can have opium and oil.

This country is on the wrong path, as many are letting the media make their thoughts for them!
  • + 4
 @theminsta: I find it kinda ironic that a Candadian such as yourself is arguing against American gun control laws, since your own country implements many gun control laws and regulates firearms much more strictly than the US.

Most Americans who want more regulation do not want to "take all the guns away", we simply want laws similar to those you have in Canada: background checks and licensing, waiting periods, and magazine capacity limits.
  • + 9
 @parisgore: If vista sees their revenue going down the will do something. I work in this industry to and per your definition boycotting them would hurt me. Vista will give a f*ck if bell s helmet sales plunge. They own 3 outdoor brands and one gun brand. If they don't hit their target at the end of their year their investors will want to know why and they will have a hard time explaining...

Anyway neither you or I will lose on this because people wont stop riding with bike helmets. They will just buy their backpacks and helmets at companies that don't sell guns as well. So those company will earn more and will hire more freelancers, more athletes and employees...
  • + 5
 @XCMark: @XCMark: It's a complex problem, fueled by culture (movies, games etc.), the lack of viable health care options for those families with mental health issues, but ultimately exasperated by the ridiculous availability of assault rifles and ammunition (in the US). Guns become an easy means to an end, they are part of the equation.

Press blames the NRA?! they are a collection of gun manufacturers who want and need to sell more guns. They actively smear any candidate who dampens their prospects and promote (fund) candidates who share their interest. If US citizens want gun control and health care legislation, then vote out your representatives in congress/senate who do not take action. Data suggests gun-control legislation does deliver material results, but US citizens have not been willing (or to your point; able) to hold their representatives accountable, so the death spiral continues...
  • + 0
 @dthomp325: Wait you're saying there aren't background checks, waiting periods and magazine limits in the U.S.? and also how is a magazine limit gonna help if someone with 20 more bullets than you walks in?
  • - 1
 @michibretz:

I don’t think anyone’s job is at stake here. Either Vista will lose a handful of gun nut customers. Or they’ll lose a shit ton of people who care a lot about gun control. I don’t personally care about that specific company either way.

But generally, corporate social responsibility is something that needs to be taken more seriously and if Vista takes a stand I will be more likely to purchase from their brands.
  • + 5
 @parisgore: you make a good point, essentially were hurting decent companies and people in an attempt to hurt a much larger company. Arguably the number one cause of killings in general is a lack of feeling accepted and loved. Despite the ridiculous arguments, that happen here on PB, MTB can bring people together and has created some amazing communities. If anything we need more communities like the ones created by mtb, not less. I understand wanting change but I don't think hurting good companies and people is the best way to go about it.
  • + 3
 @jclnv: Yes, I want to save my own life. Don't know about your country but mine was founded on running from a tyrannical government.
  • + 10
 @XCMark: We have mentally ill folks in Canada and don’t have monthly mass shootings. We just make it harder to buy a gun than a Kinder Suprise.
  • + 6
 @Otago: "Hard to be a mass shooter without a mass shooting weapon..."

James D Walk 1956. Blew up a school because he was fired. Killed 28 staff and self.

Charlottesville truck murder. Killed 7.

Then I also have the BATF report on violent altercations since 1995. Where since 1995 there has been 1928 violent altercations from people with a mental illness. Of that, 386 were with a weapon. Of those weapons used in violent altercations by people with mental illnesses as reported by the BATF, only 108 have been with a firearm. In that 108 violent altercations with a firearm, only 64 had multiple victims... So in 23 years there has been 64 reported incidents of violence with a firearm by a mentally ill person toward multiple people...

... The media is just really good at getting non-critical thinking people to think what they want them to think.
  • + 12
 @parisgore: Vista cares about consolidated net income and earnings per share. If Bell, Giro, and the others went without a sale for the next year, or a steep decline in sales, or even share price, it would cut Vista pretty deep. These companies ARE Vista, and Vista is Bell, Giro, etc.

Unfortunately yeah, boycot also hurts innocent employees. But consumers have the right to, and have to, do what's right for them. That is free market capitalism. And it can be very effective.
  • - 2
 @dubod22: There was this war called world war II in the 20th century and this guy named hitler killing a bunch of unarmed people
  • + 5
 @thehardtail: as you stated correctly, there has been terror attacks in select countries in europe over teh last couple of years.

but what has that to do with americans gunning down americans on a weekly bases? even if it was "just" eight where people got killed. Its end of February now. That means every week children are dying somewhere in teh United states. how can any sane person think this is normal??????
  • + 3
 @foxxyman: Exactly the issue lies in the people committing these killings, not the instruments used to commit them. Even if we could make all guns disappear what's to say mass killings wouldn't be committed using cars, or kitchen knives. For the issue of mass killings to be completely solved you have to help the people doing the killing.
  • + 0
 @ikaika: "If US citizens want gun control and health care legislation, then vote out your representatives in congress/senate who do not take action."

Judging by our foreign policy, Americans are not going to do shit, but blow up more brown people for their resources; opium & oil.
  • + 0
 @RyanAF:

Or, as is becoming increasingly evident, we need to at least minimize the number of people killed. A handgun vs. an assault weapon/small magazine vs. larger magazine is what ultimately needs to happen to REDUCE the number of deaths, because clearly avoiding deaths is entirely fanciful.
  • + 3
 @sino428: I agree, gun control can mean not giving guns to people on the no fly list, or outright only giving guns to the military and law enforcement. It's a very broad phrase used so differently by so many people, it almost means something different to everyone.
  • + 2
 @Batipapo: there has been a few using cars
  • + 0
 @XCMark: Don't quote me out of context, read it again.
I'm young but I do realise the cuts that have been made in mental health funding across all of the western world in the last ten years. I know you're a bit old but do you realise we've had the same cuts in this country lol. From that first comment you made about mental health I can see you have little understanding of the reality of it.
I don't profess to have an answer to please everyone you talk of, I think it's naive to think there is such a thing.
If anything you're the one believing the media stuff about it being a mental health issue that can one day be solved and not a gun problem.
  • + 4
 @RyanAF:

That’s the problem. The first reaction from all these reasonable, sane gun owners is “you’ll never take my guns!” When all people are asking for is to limit the lethality of these instances. Not take away anyone’s guns...
  • + 5
 @gabethebabem8: this guy called Hitler had a populist agenda. It literally was "make Germany Great again" after WW1 and Germans (Arians) first! He gave the people guns and told them everyone is their enemy and wants to take stuff away from them. sounds familiar? watched any fox lately?
  • + 1
 @RyanAF: Well, I don't trust government. I have every reason to not trust government. So I think it reasonable for citizens to have much of what the govenment has to keep it in check.

Seriously, if my gov can go over 'there' and blow up brown people for resources, then it's highly likely that our lives mean just as little to the people creating and maintaining our foreign -death- policy.

And, we(US of A) have been cutting social mental health programs for the last 40 years. What we are witnessing is a symptom of derailing social mental health programs for four decades.

... You see, our[sic] problems will eventually catch up with us!
  • + 0
 @XCMark: what are you going to do against the government with an AR15?
If they were to come for you the would send a drone in the middle of the night and bomb down your house just like they do it in countries that have oil.
Seriously, government forces would be equality impressed if you throw old tomatoes at them
  • + 1
 @XCMark: 50 mass murders or attempted mass murders in US schools since Columbine. 141 dead. Per FBI statistics.
  • + 5
 @codypup: Yeah but what about my infantile desire to own a gun? Surely that makes those deaths somewhat acceptable?
  • + 2
 @codypup: "50 mass murders or attempted mass murders in US schools since Columbine."

I'd like to see that list? Linky?

@michibretz Put down the rifle and use what they use. However, the majority of service personnel would not go against their countrymen. So, it would be like a few thousand bootlickers against, what, 170ml to 250ml people in opposition.

We could literally take our government back from an illegal insurrection with 2x4's that have 4 penny nails in them.

----The lack of education from the opinionated young here is getting out of hand. So, there may be intelligence on the net, but there is no wisdom to keep it from hurting itself.----
  • + 7
 @michibretz:

Yes, but the gun nuts NEED to believe in these absurd Red Dawn fantasies for some reason.

I don’t care if you give every single person in the US a rocket launcher. It’s not gonna be worth spit.

But they’ll never stop trotting out the same tired notion that they’d be able to regroup in the woods somewhere and stage a resistance against this fanciful tyranny. Never mind the fact that they’re the ones who put a legit tyrant in the white house.
  • + 5
 @sino428: Agreed it is about all shootings. Especially good ones.

Respectfully, you and so many others commenting here are not informed in regards to the number of shootings that occur in defense of a crime.

The number of lives saved because a legal gun owner legally used his weapon to scare away, injure or kill a violent criminal FAR OUTNUMBERS violent crimes committed with guns. By a factor of roughly 16:1.

Doing away with guns is simply throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

But because the whole gun control argument is not really about saving lives, but rather stripping freedoms and exercising control, the following Facts won’t matter, and the proponents of gun control will continue with emotional rhetoric in the face of facts to the contrary:

The following statistics are taken directly from the FBI:

* Roughly 16,459 murders were committed in the United States during 2016. Of these, about 11,961 or 73% were committed with firearms.[17] [18]
* A 1993 nationwide survey of 4,977 households found that over the previous five years, at least 0.5% of households had members who had used a gun for defense during a situation in which they thought someone “almost certainly would have been killed” if they “had not used a gun for protection.” This amounted to 162,000 such incidents per year. This excludes all “military service, police work, or work as a security guard.”[19]
* Based on survey data from the U.S. Department of Justice, roughly 5.9 million violent crimes were committed in the United States during 2014.[20] [21] These include simple/aggravated assaults, robberies, sexual assaults, rapes, and murders.[22] Of these, about 600,000 or 10% were committed by offenders visibly armed with a gun.[23]
* Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[24] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[25]
* A 1993 nationwide survey of 4,977 households found that over the previous five years, at least 3.5% of households had members who had used a gun “for self-protection or for the protection of property at home, work, or elsewhere.” This amounted to 1,029,615 such incidents per year. This excludes all “military service, police work, or work as a security guard.”[26]
* A 1994 survey conducted by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found that Americans use guns to frighten away intruders who are breaking into their homes about 498,000 times per year.[27
  • - 1
 @thehardtail: no, we don't have those laws in the US.

Background checks are performed by licensed firearm dealers, but private sellers can sell without background checks, including at "gun shows". If the check takes longer than 3 days, the purchaser is allowed to buy the gun, even if the check has not returned a verdict.

There is no federal waiting period, although some states have waiting periods.

There are also no federal magazine capacity limits. A few states regulate, but most do not.

You can also buy ammo unrestricted in the US, compared to Canada, where you have to obtain a license to both own a gun and purchase ammo.
  • - 3
 @XCMarkBig Grin onald, is that you?

Allowing the use of assault weapons can only enhance the damage of this "Mental health crisis".

Go check out #oneless folks. This is how change happens
  • + 5
 @MasterSlater: www.ecclesia.org/truth/fame.html just some random fantasy yeah
"Those who cannot remember their past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santayana
  • + 2
 @MasterSlater: Well said.

It's bizarre what these yahoos think they're going to achieve against the most militarized police and advanced military in the world if the shit really hit the fan.
  • + 2
 @thehardtail:

Cmon man... you’re referencing things that happened 80 years or more before drones, attack helicopters, night vision, etc etc.

Please provide a more recent example that actually applies to reality. Because a bunch of guys with AR-15’s isn’t gonna accomplish anything in the face of a modern military.

Do yourself a favor and go read about the Russian mercenaries that just got literally pulverized in Syria a few weeks ago. Oh wait! They all had assault weapons, so they must’ve really put up a good fight! No, no the did not. About 200 of them were literally turned into hamburger meat by US forces.

So hit me with something else that actually is based in reality.
  • + 6
 @Batipapo:

As others have posted: France, truck. 9-11, box cutters and airplanes. Bombings. Or in China and Japan, mass murders with knives are not at all uncommon.

For example Kunming, China in 2014... over 130 stabbed, 28 dead in a ....knife ....attack
  • + 1
 @MasterSlater: when is the last time we won a war?
  • + 0
 @brncr6:

That we actually belonged in?
  • + 7
 I carry a gun in my Camelbak on every ride, along with my Blackburn Wayside Multi-tool. Just because it is illegal for schools to defend themselves against active shooters (yay gun control...), doesn't mean I have to be unprepared.
  • + 1
 @melled74: True, but Federal ammo is great
  • + 3
 @Thustlewhumber:

There was an armed resource officer (ex-cop) at the school in Parkland. Which accomplished exactly NOTHING.

So your point was what?
  • - 1
 @giantrider56: take an economics class.
  • - 4
flag MasterSlater (Feb 28, 2018 at 19:42) (Below Threshold)
 @brncr6:

The company owns a company that sells assault weapons to children.

Nothing bandwagon about it. People are tired of all this and if boycotts on social irresponsible companies helps, then so be it.
  • + 1
 @MasterSlater: any we have been in? North Korea we lost that one. Vietnam we lost that one to. How about the one we have been fighting the last ten years. All of the above we have had the upper hand in advanced weapons and still lost.
  • + 1
 @dtm1: the bath massacre that killed 38 children in a school in Michigan with explosives.
  • + 0
 @michibretz: no it wont. Those boycotts will effect those companies before effecting vista as a whole. The arms companies if anything will see a surge from this crap. Its massive money, government contracts, etc.

The boycotted companies will be forced to adjust on their own. They're held responsible for their own performance. All vista is going to do is lay people off, cut r&d budgets, etc. They wont be able to sell the companies because their sales will be down. And there is no guarantee another company you dont like wont buy them.

This boycott is neive as hell. Its media controlling the puppets.
  • + 4
 @MasterSlater:

You want vista to take a stand againt fire arms when the majority of their money comes from that industry?

Bell. Giro. Blackburn. Camelbak. All if them have a history if supporting great causes... not the nra.

Doesn't make any more sense than boycotting them because you dont like football.
  • + 0
 @brncr6:

Ok, so ignoring that you didn’t answer the question that disqualifies your argument let’s just list some even if we weren’t entirely justified in our participation.

Iraq... twice

Lybia

World War II

Korea was a win if you consider the fact that the North didn’t succeed in taking over the south.

Afghanistan is completely different by the way. We’re not there to utterly crush an entire people. Which is what the conspiracy oriented gun nuts think is gonna happen.
  • + 5
 Come to the Pinkbike comment section for all of your non-sequitur needs
  • + 2
 @melled74: I have a bolt action .308 Savage rifle. I'm actually surprised at how much I like it as it was cheap and a savage. Lol
  • + 6
 @RyanAF: While the term "gun control" can mean many things, there is no reason for anyone to think that in the US it means "banning guns". Why? Because no one proposes banning guns. No lawmakers, and not the vast vast majority of citizens ever suggest that. The only people that propose banning guns completely are fringe extremists. Anyone who really thinks that discussions about "gun control" mean anything remotely resembling taking away guns from law abiding citizens is frankly just extremely paranoid.
  • + 3
 @YouHadMeAtDrugs: Your comment is so on point. I just want to point out one thing. A 12 year old cannot "own" a firearm. They cannot purchase them, or acquire them by any means, they can however borrow them for defined purposes and buy ammunition if they posses a Minor's licence. www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/fs-fd/minor-mineur-eng.htm
  • + 2
 @MasterSlater: Its called willpower if you wanna change something better to have to ability to. The colonials were weak compared to the British they still won.
  • + 0
 @sino428:

Well, that just makes you another one of the sheeple man! Can’t trust the government man!

(note sarcastic tone)
  • + 0
 @freestyIAM: Well actually the NRA has a lot of control over the whole entire U.S government by stopping the CDC from being able to do studies on guns. Therefore the thing to do - is to go search other countries which have put new laws i.e.. Australia to prohibit machine guns or guns similar to them. The result? less deaths, and the normalization of deaths because of guns like the rest of the first world countries (excluding the U.S). And the thing is quotations? Well normal people who have a normal mental profile have been mass murderers, so again-know all of what you say before you say it please. Thank you.
  • + 2
 @Rattles: You can buy this in Canada, it is a non-restricted rifle. The Magazine would have to be pinned at 5-rounds instead of 30. These rifles are excellent modern hunting rifles with exceptional accuracy and effectiveness.
  • + 2
 @dtm1: This is the problem. When did I, or anyone else ever say that we should "do away with guns'? When did I anyone ever say that people shouldn't be able to own a gun to protect their home and property?
  • + 1
 @MasterSlater: Didn't answer because it made no sense to me because no one belongs in a war. We lost Korea plan and simple. And we were never in a war to utterly crash an entire pepole. You originally said armed civilians cant win against a technology superior force.
History has prove many times over that it can happen.
  • + 2
 @YouHadMeAtDrugs: Donald Trump wants to get rid of guns from black market. Racist piece of shit.
  • + 3
 @thehardtail:

Great history lesson! Thanks!

Oh, and the colonials, who you so modestly compare yourself to in terms of courage, were aided extensively by the french.

Also, colonial troops outnumber British soldiers by about 30,000.

And the weaponry was mostly similar.

Anything else I can shoot down for you?

(See what I did there?!)
  • + 1
 @MasterSlater: Considering that the government has drones now, one has to conclude that however well-intentioned, the 2nd amendment been a national disaster. Meanwhile Japan has no guns and hardly any gun deaths; That's good law and order.

Violent culture, combined with lack of social services and easy access to attack weapons means attacks will continue. The NRA is the only one winning, gun sales and membership go up with each attack. Their strategy has increased attacks thus increasing gun sales, they won't change unless forced.
  • + 0
 @MasterSlater: Well you just supported me more so. If it's a correct move you can gain support from great allies plus what would you say let your government go corrupt or go absent and you get murdered by rampant people or gov with no way to fight back or fight some what and not die without puttting up a challenge.
  • + 3
 @MasterSlater:a veteran army against farmers and store clerks.
  • + 3
 Interesting history: During WWI the Germans tried to convince Mexico to invade the USA and reclaim former lands in order to divert Allied resources. For a few reasons, Mexico refused. One of those was the large population of heavily armed civilians that would be difficult to control even if Mexico won. Google 'Zimmermann telegram'.
  • + 18
 In our sh*thole country South Africa, gun control has become extremely strict to the point where it's just not worth owning a weapon anymore... However we are still one of the most violent-crime ridden countries in the world... My point is, if people want to commit crimes they will find a way to get their hands on guns, whether those weapons are legal or not... And almost every single time, the crimes are committed with illegal weapons... So gun control has not worked here, if anything, it has just put more power in the hands of the criminals
  • + 4
 @Rucker10: I'm dumbfounded trying to understand how buying "this shit" as in a Bell helmet or Giro shoes from such companies with a deep history in cycling means you support mass shootings?? Last I read, pretty sure the product developers are researching safer bike equipment and not teaching kids how to kill people.
  • + 1
 @michibretz: He didn't give the people guns, he gave his soldiers guns. He killed the people instead. The second amendment applies to all citizens bro.
  • + 4
 @dtm1: Please share your reference for this information. I would like to read it.

The statistics and information you are referencing is not an accurate representation. "A 1993 nationwide study of 4,977 homes". In 1993 there were approx. 96 million homes in the US, in 2017 there were approx. 126 million. This proves that the numbers don't add up, you cannot extrapolate numbers like this from such a small sample size and call it representative of the whole population. The math speaks for itself, 4,977 homes out of 96,000,000 = .0052% of the population... Catch what I am saying?
  • - 1
 @fecalmaster:

So much f*ckin eh.
  • + 1
 @thehardtail: "This article is about the U.S. Assault Weapons Ban of 1994 that expired in 2004."
  • + 1
 @thehardtail: Bah. Didn't mean to pile on. My bad.
  • + 4
 @sino428: Could you please explain what an "assault rifle" is?
  • + 1
 @Pynchonite: it's all good lol i overlooked i deserve to be reminded of missing that. lol
  • + 0
 @MasterSlater: modern military is not allowed to operate on US soil. Armed citizens would make a hell of a fight. I'm not sure your MO: "they're too strong so don't try" is a good one.
  • + 2
 @jason342: alot of people think the ar in ar-15 means assault rifle-15
  • + 3
 @MasterSlater: The colonials weren't pussies...
  • + 1
 @theminsta: “Theminsta” haha the name was just too perfect for what everyone was talking about above.. “Prime Minista” lol anywho..
  • + 2
 @theminsta: You must be a fake account. What about rocket launchers, Handgrenades & Sharks with freaking laser beams attached to their heads?!? Why is it illegal to have those as citizens but yet we all truly know that Dr. evil and other crazy/evil bad guys Still have those kinds of weapons? Yet we never hear anything in the news about those kinds of deaths especially at schools!
  • + 2
 @codypup: That's a pretty short-sighted idea. I can guarantee that if you stop sending the government money that you will definitely be in a situation where you have to fight them (or be imprisoned). And that's not in some future dystopia, that's the way things work today. You do know that if you stop paying federal taxes you will be arrested and imprisoned right? So your plan to fight the governement by refusing to pay taxes will only escalate the need to fight them physically. Isn't there some precedent for this? Oh right, the Declaration of Independence that lead to the American Revolutionary War, a situation where a people's choice to end allegiance and stop paying taxes to their government directly resulted in those people fighting that government with firearms. Oh gosh, sorry for rambling but I'm having a hard time getting past your ridiculous and unintelligent idea.
  • + 1
 @YouHadMeAtDrugs: Well said. We know our sh*t is at an all time low. Just look at our dip sh#t leader.How in the f@ck does that happen? It's hard to say, "nothing is f&@ked here dude". It's f@cked.
  • + 1
 @YouHadMeAtDrugs: Great comment, I agree 100%
  • + 3
 @melled74: this is not the place to get into a peeing match over firearms brands, but since I'm here, the Savage BVSS rimfire is an excellent target rifle.
  • + 2
 @thehardtail: To be fair the Brits were busy colonizing the rest of the world.
  • + 1
 @Batipapo: many mass homicides have been comitted by people using totally legal motor vehicles as a means to take innocent lives. Some of the deadliest mass homicides in the past few years have been vehicles. And look at the Oklahoma city bombing. Fertilizer was the main ingredient. Evil humans will find a way to inflict suffering on others unless they are imprisoned or counselled. Hopefully the latter.
  • + 2
 @freestyIAM: in other countries they use IED's, cars, suicide bombers etc.
  • + 1
 @XCMark: I have never agreed with something more
  • + 1
 @brncr6: So if several 5 megaton nukes were dropped on Korea the US wouldn't have defeated them?

Extreme example but if you throw enough munitions at a country you either wipe it out or demoralize the people enough that they don't think it's worth fighting for anymore.
  • + 1
 @fecalmaster: its great isn't it? i now feel better knowing that theres no contradiction in my gear when i'm using my camel bak for biking or as a range bag filled with federal premium ammo! wish i could work for such a company as well
  • + 3
 @michibretz: Not all of Europe has harsh gun laws. The Czech republic has some of the most lenient gun laws in the developed world, yet a lower homicide rate by firearms death than more restrictive countries like Canada. It is a culture thing I think. Some in the US see the gun as a be all end equalizer all in a society that is morally bankrupt. Stupid media doesn't help.
  • + 4
 @woofer2609: Yes, but that has nothing to do with guns. If we cure AIDS, people will still die of cancer. Doesn't mean that we shouldn't cure AIDS.
  • + 0
 @jclnv: we did that to japan and it worked but i dont see our goverment using nukes on citizens in this country.
You actually think the United States government will nukes its own citizens and country to stop a armed uprising?
  • + 4
 We should just ban all people from living mannnnnn
  • + 1
 @Pynchonite: i didn't say states shouldn't look at tighter gun regulations, which many states might consider. I'm merely pointing out that guns are not responsible for all mass killings. Evil finds a way. It is always easy to eradicate what is conveniently evil as opposed to what causes people to act on evil impulses.
  • - 1
 @MCMbiker: You won't have to if they all get shot and killed due to gun ownership in an insane culture.
  • + 4
 @MasterSlater: many people have guns for sport with no intention of killing anything. There is several shooting disciplines in the olympics.
  • + 3
 @brncr6: No, that's why I said it was an extreme analogy.

Could I see a bunch of yahoos in an ad hoc bunker getting flattened by a drone strike?

Yep.
  • + 3
 @woofer2609: Fair enough, but I would also invite you to try and buy a ton of ammonium nitrate after the Oklahoma City bombing. Or cough medicine, even. Lots of people point out that anything can be a weapon (including lots of folks on this board) but that has nothing to do with the particular evil that the petitioners are trying to remedy, which is the over-availability of guns in the US leading to otherwise preventable harm. (Interesting fact: the cartels in Mexico used to buy their guns in Texas from citizens who would buy them legally.)
  • + 1
 @thehardtail: in most places such regulations do exist, I don't know if that was meant to be rhetorical.
  • + 10
 @jclnv: speak truth to nonsense around here and you get downvoted. Blame mental health and not easy access to auto and semi auto weapons for mass murders and you get a cheer. This is partly why there are more mass shootings in the US than anywhere else.
  • + 0
 @jclnv: we have been doing that for ten years in Afghanistan and there is no end in sight. 10 + more years of drone strikes to go.
  • + 1
 @XCMark: I'm confused, are you saying you don't believe the gov when they they just want to regulate guns.
  • + 1
 @XCMark: This country loves its silver bullets, huh? or at least loves to sell them to you with buzz words. Maybe we could not say mental health issues, but just say antisocial personality disorder.
  • + 1
 @Hoob93: but on the other hand, I would rather defend myself with legal AR15 against mental Guy with legal AR15 than defend myself with a knife against a guy with illegal AR15...
  • + 1
 @Beez177:

How do you print gun powder?
  • + 1
 @XCMark: NBC reference to official FBI statistics. Google is your friend
  • + 1
 Certainly that must be respected. We will only be safe when the infantile are fully armed. @jclnv:
  • + 2
 You’re a hundred more times likely to shoot yourself in the ass than you are to defend yourself from a Trail Pirate @Thustlewhumber:
  • + 9
 @XCMark: people around britain and europe have mental health problems too....we generally don't shoot each other in schools.
  • + 1
 You’re correct. If I quit paying taxes,I go to prison. But if 20 million of us quit paying, then what’re they going to do?even as an individual, I find myself weighing the cost/benefits of civil disobedience. Ali was one man, but when the Greatest Fighter of all time said “I ain’t got nothin against those Vietnam Cong” I hat meant something @robw515:
  • + 4
 @ninjatarian: yep, good luck printing an AR at home, they ain't no 3D scan of your face. Whilst the moving parts of a rifle are very simple, they are very precise and need to be up to task.

Going to print your own ammunition as well?
  • + 1
 @dtm1: Hey those are interesting stats. Where'd you find them?
  • + 5
 @woofer2609: Not long ago a "lone wolf" terrorist went on a rampage in Edmonton. He stabbed several people, then stole a truck and hit a police officer. He then tried to drive through a crowd downtown but couldn't hit anybody before the police stopped him.

What if he had been able to pick up an AR-15 at Canadian Tire and just unload on that crowd?
  • + 2
 @vanmtnbiker: What if? That is a very open ended statement. What if he had a bomb strapped to his chest? What if he had a IED in his van? What if he just stayed home and got stoned instead?

Just so happens, you can buy an AR-15 style rifle from Canadian Tire. Only thing is, in Canada you need to undergo security clearance by a CFO (Chief Firearms Officer), including reference checks, only after taking and passing a firearms safety course, to get a license to do so.

What if?
  • + 3
 @XCMark: bit of a pointless argument seeing as anyone who kills someone else, clearly has mental health issues! You don't kill people with a sane mentality period.
  • + 1
 @sino428: You did. In reply to xcmark’s statement on addressing the mental health epidemic: “Literally, we could ban all guns tomorrow, yet, people with mental health issues that want to hurt a person or persons will follow their feelings through”...

You said, “Why can’t it be both?”

That reads pretty clear to me.

And yes there are plenty of politicians and laymen who would love to do away with guns - it is not paranoid to recognize that, rather it is naive to think otherwise.

Again, if the issue for a large portion of the gun control crowd was truly saving lives, how does one explain the loss of life that would occur without guns (used by civilians, not police) in stopping crime? Thats 163,000 violent crimes that would not have been stopped vs 11,000 gun murders. Those numbers aren’t even close.

To put it more simply, has the “war on drugs” prevented their illegal use? Why would a “gun ban” do anything different? It would just “ban” them from the law abiding, and the law breakers would continue to use them, only with less potential of being stopped.
  • + 1
 @MasterSlater: Dude such an entertaining comment.
  • + 1
 @badpotato: As would I but try and imagine the situation without guns
  • + 1
 @thehardtail: If you've ever been to Whistler on Australia day you wouldn't say that.

jk aussies! looooove yooouuuu!
  • + 7
 @XCMark: well, you know, people with mental health issues live in every country in the world, but you arm them with semi-automatics ... Don't bring a knjfe to a gun fight ;-) It's really sad that the right to carry is still so deeply rooted in american society ... well ... hmm ...
  • - 1
 @Batipapo: yeah there is this new thing with trucks and terrorists. Oh, and bombs, suicide vests, poison gas... should I keep going?

Lots of evil in the world. I don't know about you, but I want my guns just in case some evil shows up in my neighborhood, even if it is a simple and unfortunately common home invasion.

And, I want my friends, my former military, ex-policeman, well trained concealed carry buddies to have their guns too. I want them to be my neighbors and ride with me, and work with me and be at the mall and movies and church sitting near me.

It seems pretty simple - good guys with guns can prevent/deter/stop the few whacko's and evil people out there when they decide to do horrible things.

I feel very safe out in the woods mountain biking, and in the mountain biking community. You all are great folks - but there is evil in the world, and that is why I will keep my gun.
  • + 0
 @Batipapo: yeah there is this new thing with trucks and terrorists. Oh, and bombs, suicide vests, poison gas... should I keep going?

Lots of evil in the world. I don't know about you, but I want my guns just in case some evil shows up in my neighborhood, even if it is a simple and unfortunately common home invasion.

And, I want my friends, my former military, ex-policeman, well trained concealed carry buddies to have their guns too. I want them to be my neighbors and ride with me, and work with me and be at the mall and movies and church sitting near me.

It seems pretty simple - good guys with guns can prevent/deter/stop the few whacko's and evil people out there when they decide to do horrible things.

I feel very safe out in the woods mountain biking, and in the mountain biking community. You all are great folks - but there is evil in the world, and that is why I will keep my gun.
  • + 3
 @dtm1: I'm still curious where you got those stats from. Your argument hinges on the idea that guns prevent the loss of life so show your work.

Also, it actually is pretty paranoid to think that people want to take all your guns away. I'm a left-wing vegetarian and I still think that people should be able to kill deer with rifles if they have a hunting license.
  • + 1
 @dtm1: and somehow all of the deaths on the few incidents you listed justify the monthly mass shootings in the US (which far surpass in numbers of deaths and are of a preventable nature). It’s a very incoherent logic the NRA loves to use but only makes sense to the nuts that buy into the NRA agenda.
  • + 1
 @brncr6: Who's the enemy there? Do the weapons corps (and there powerful lobbyists) want that war to end? What would be the consequence of them leaving now V's 10 years?

Jack shit.
  • + 2
 @thehardtail: oh just like the kid in Florida a few weeks ago who killed 17 despite the armed officer. Right that was a long time ago!
  • + 2
 @badpotato: Insane logic. Where does that arms race end?

Here's a better idea, nobody has semi-auto weapons.
  • + 10
 @XCMark:
The rate of murders per capita in the US is 5 in 100,000.
In Canada it is 2 in 100,000.
In the UK it is 1 in 100,000.

If you think the UK has excellent mental health care then you are sadly mistaken. However, after a mass school shooting we decided that although owning and shooting hand guns was fun, we would prefer our children to be safe.
It is infantile to suggest that guns=liberty.
  • + 3
 @willycpc: I can't imagine what it must be like to live a life in fear.

Rather sad really.
  • + 0
 @sino428: Classic NRA tactic to divide and conquer. The NRA offers this hyperbolic paranoia around the argument while offering no solutions and simply pushing for more guns in classrooms, colleges, stock bumps....
  • + 1
 Was considering one or their full face because of the ability to have headphones but will pass until they offer some explanation on their misguided support of the NRA. Let’s not forget the NRA directly attacks mass shooting victims who speak out against their agenda. If you don’t believe just google their president Wayne Lapierre and read up.
  • + 1
 Agreed@ybsurf:
  • + 3
 @Drewnose: Thank you for helping to illustrate my point. Mentally disturbed guy was not able to buy the assault weapon due largely in part to common sense gun laws.

He wasn't able to buy an IED or bomb at a store either (I wonder why you can't buy bombs or IEDs or hand grenades or rocket launchers in stores?).

Sure, it is possible that highly motivated, highly skilled, crazy people will use the internets to research how to make a bomb and go and do so. Crazy people also can buy guys in Canada, that shooting in Montreal not that long ago the guy had legally purchased guns. The point is the laws are there to REDUCE the likelihood of shitbag scummy losers from obtaining highly effective human murdering devices.
  • + 9
 @XCMark: From a different stand point, something like this happened in a village called Dunblane in Scotland 20 odd years ago. That resulted on tighter gun control and there hasn't been a similar incident since.
I totally agree with your view on lack of funding for mental health being wrong, we have the same issues here, but without consequences so severe.

However, it's hard to hear about constitutional rights and so on without despairing.
Not sure if you have it in the US, but in the uk, there has been application of a sugar tax as obesity is becoming a severe problem. Everyone is being penalised and paying more because some people can't manage their diets.

If "punishing the masses" to control the few to avoid tooth decay, diabetes and obesity is legitimate then using the same principle surely guns should be banned or better controlled to stop them falling in the wrong hands? That guy killed 17 and injured how many more mentally or physically for life probably, a bottle of coke and a mars bar can't do that.
The masses would be effected but is the pain families keep suffering worth other peoples rights? If those who become victims believe it's legit to own weapons that can slaughter multiple people a minute then that's one thing, but I would guess they don't and they suffer the ultimate cost.
Not looking for a Uk vs Us keyboard war, just putting a point of view across.
Sadly its getting to a point where I don't think many people find it as shocking as we should as it's happening so often we're desensitizing to it, and that is equally dangerous as it is sad.

I'm not trolling, looking to offend or disrespect anybody or there views, but, as a brit it's like watching a person keep headbutting a wall, then asking them why they are doing it to be told, by someone with a smashed up nose blown pupils and black eyes, it's their right, even though its severely harming them?
  • + 1
 @ryanm189: great comment!
  • + 2
 @onemind123: Too late I've already been all over the world , specially Canada and ignorance is the one common factor as displayed Soo perfectly by you.
  • + 0
 @RD63: I'm sorry your on your period and everything is an issue right now. Have you ever bought soap or gas,,, ok your an insensative asswipe supporting the devil.......bugabugabuga!!
  • + 1
 @michibretz: On point.
  • + 1
 @XCMark: If you were a goverment, would you like to have people capable to defend themseles of ever growing sickness of militarized law enforcement?
  • + 2
 This is the most replies I've ever seen on a pb comment.
  • + 1
 @Hoob93: will they stop being produced and remaining one destroyed? ...NO, so I cannot imagine this without guns, as they will not disappear.
Sorry to say that, but all this situation comes from tense society, kids not tought to cope with stress cause eitriger they were beaten or they were just allowed to do whatever (no stress policy). Add to this competitive (you must be the best) and showing off kids, looking to show off easiest way - saying crap to weaker or troubled kids. They crack. So Ok, I am overreacting - sure, limiting guns could help, but it would not heal the system and will not cause magic - there is work to do!
  • + 2
 From wiki: "Approximately 1.4 million people have been killed using firearms in the U.S. between 1968 and 2011". Have a critical think about that, 2nd amendment fanboys.

Based on this, I'm not sure Americans have got their heads around the skills required to "defend themselves". Attacking others doesn't seem to be a problem though, so 1 out of 2 ain't bad!

@midasdj: Non-partisan sense. It'll never catch on...
  • + 4
 @jclnv: I'm giving you an up vote because I'm not a blinkered Septic.

"guns don't kill people!"

Yeah, but c*nts with guns do...
Fewer people with guns and more control when it comes to the sale of guns/ammunition means fewer people are going to die.
  • + 1
 @fecalmaster: right there with you!
  • + 2
 @jclnv: so if I punch you, you won't make fist and defend yourself? See how that works. Or let's go riding, and I'll take your new bike from you, because you won't do anything about it.
  • + 4
 @Batipapo: 9/11 and just about every true mass murder are committed by other means. The gun is a personal killer. You can only shoot one person at a time. With explosives, gas, or fire you can kill multitides. While guns are the choice of weapon of this era, so swords were of era's past. I'll agree we live in a culture that glorifies gun violence, but few realize the reality of taking lives. Which in my opinion would stop 90% of this. Once you see and smell the death of another, and have to live with taking someone's life away from them you won't want to do it. That in my experience is our real problem. People live in a fantasy in our country.
  • + 1
 @sino428: problem, reaction, solution....your controllers don't want you having guns....it's a set up
  • - 2
 @Otago: you don't have people blowing up buildings, and running over otbers with cars. I guess BBC is the fake news then. The UK is a far more uncivilized place than the US.
  • - 1
 @onemanarmy: exactly. 9/11 and the holicaust weren't accomplished with firearms. Bombs and gas have though.
  • + 0
 @Hoob93: the rule of defense is charge a gun, run from a knife. Just so you don't get gutted, not understanding the mechanics of range.
  • + 2
 @XCMark: we have no more of a mental health crisis than any other country! That is absolutely not unique to us! Fewer guns really equals fewer gun deaths. There's a saying- I don't lock my house to keep out the 5% of criminals that are determined to break in by any means possible- I do it to keep out the 95% that might be tempted or reckless or careless to do it otherwise
  • + 2
 @Websterminator: Except @Otago is in NZ, clue's in the name and flag. Easy mistake to make.
And the Nazis didn't have guns you say? How did they get the people on the trains, by asking nicely?
  • + 1
 @onemanarmy: yes it actually is
  • + 2
 @Batipapo: Bombs I'd imagine. Oklahoma etc. Are the deaths from Sept 11th included in that statistic? Would certainly skew the data in that direction.
Also, with gun ownership being heavily restricted in the UK, Germany, France, Australia etc vechicles such as cars and trucks are frequently being used as weapons for mass killings. And a higher incidence of stabbings.
  • + 3
 @Deuce-DeuceAndAHalf: Define frequently. Is once every few years frequent? Stabbings are also infrequent enough to be reported on national news in the UK. Does the US media even bother to report isolated gun deaths anymore?
  • + 4
 @YouHadMeAtDrugs: Exactly! You mow down dozens of people by ramming a truck through a crowd but does that mean one should ban trucks? A trigger doesn't pull itself... Psychological, socio-economic, political etc factors all need to be addressed... The guy in France who drove a truck through the crowd couldn't get a gun, so he used what he could... If people want to kill they will find a way... The gun control problem is not a gun problem, it's a people problem... Solve that first... Stop the bullying and other social ills then incidents like Columbine, Florida etc won't be an issue
  • + 2
 @BenPea: I meant there is an increasing number of such incidents in recent years. It was a colloquail term rather than definitive.
  • + 1
 @BenPea: On the issue of gun deaths in the US, I don't have the answers. I could speculate why the wouldn't report them (bad press for the city, inflaming racial biases etc.). I do know the murder rate in the US is approximately three times higher than it is in the UK. But to say that's because of US gun laws is a gross over-simplification of the issue; The US population, which is many times larger than that of the UK is concentrated mainly on the east and west coasts; the average population density is not dissimilar but 'on the ground' the story is very different. That aspect could go towards explaining the higher murder rate (proximity breeds contempt while simultaneously providing opportunity). Again, not a comprehensive argument, but what I would hope is a considered response to the infantile, superficial wailings that 'Gunz R' badzzz'.
  • - 1
 @Deuce-DeuceAndAHalf @Spark24: " Psychological, socio-economic, political etc factors all need to be addressed... " Are they being addressed? People sometimes need a hell of a lot of support to live a safe and fufiling life and many are not getting it. Because that shit is complicated my friends and the inertia is strong. Who's going to get the ball rolling?
Meanwhile there have been 1.5 million gun-related deaths since 1968. What haven't we tried to sort this out?
  • + 0
 @dtm1: Couldn't agree more brother!!!!!

@michibretz , @MasterSlater, and others who see folly in the idea of self defense.

Some truth about Gun Control.

How it allows tyranny and genocide.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=NN0vkSO9n8Y

So what some are saying is that they would rather have the state, which has slaughtered well north 150 Million people in the last 120 years, control access to guns? That's like letting pedophiles be school counselors.

It's racist origins here in the states.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-l7TO01-Sg

On how gun control leads to more crime or conversely, how more guns equal less crime.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpyLpIjEESM
www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMZtPj9xdN8

All of the above is based on historical fact.

Are we supposed to just lay down and accept being victims? The history and research above shows that criminals and governments alike prefer the unarmed.
  • + 1
 @jclnv: dont really care, I care about my gun rights and having those rights to protect myself and my family from people that would want to do us harm.
No matter who that could be.
  • + 6
 @XCMark: @XCMark: Sorry you are completely wrong. I am a psychologist and work with the mentally ill persons for 25 plus years and in a forensic environment....violent offender and people are anti social and narcissistic not mentally ill and the tend to be very sensitive and uneducated.....there is absolutely no correlation between violence and mentally ill....please read a book published by respectable scientists in the field of metal health and its history. if that is too much trouble than take a look at all other first world nations who have the exact same amount per capita of mental heath people and see none of them is any where close to the mass shootings' and gun culture for which you believe to be true!
defend your rights to guns is cool but do not place a blanket blame on a disenfranchised community of people for which it does not pertain or belong to!!!
  • + 3
 @JLopez149: read the article and comments in your link. It was far from one man and one knife. To be a source of information you must be credible. You've done yourself a disservice.
  • + 2
 @BenPea: second paragraph, four of the attackers were SHOT dead. What did they shoot them with?
  • + 0
 @XCMark: well said.
  • + 1
 @YouHadMeAtDrugs: good point, and also well said.
  • + 1
 @Bird-Man: Slightly off-topic but otherwise relevant- would you say the kind people who commit these kind of atrocities are likely to feel less accountable than the general population for their actions? Are they more likely to blame others for their failings and seek revenge for exagerrated slights against them? Put another way, do they exhibit a tendency to absolve themselves of their responsibilities for their failings and blame others? Is it possible to evaluate/ identify such individuals psychometrically?
  • + 0
 @brncr6: dude, we have troops on our streets with Famas assault rifles, but I wouldn't want everyone in my building to have one. I trust professional killing machines to handle a gun and intervene according to their training as and when necessary. The average Joe? Not so much. Joe cannot be trusted to that degree. What if the separatists had had guns? What would it have been? 100, 200 dead?
  • + 0
 @Bird-Man: So what you are saying is narcissists ARE NOT mentally ill? My research so far seems to indicate that a narcissist is usually also a psychopath or sociopath.

Additionally, your use of the term "anti social" does seem to indicate Antisocial Personality Disorder. This is important because while some say it's the same as psychopathy or sociopathy, other's just say that there is "considerable overlap". Regardless of which a person merely chooses or arrives at, "anti social" is (to some CONSIDERABLE degree) psychopathic or sociopathic.

So you seem to be suggesting that psychopathy and sociopathy are not mental illnesses.
  • - 1
 @BDKR: The narcissism point is moot, given that you have a textbook case in the White House. Is he mentally ill?
  • + 1
 @XCMark: probably you don't need gun control, that's the natures way to adjust population in the us. Natural selection is the key here, to many psychos, got to find a way around it in't ?
  • + 2
 @BenPea: Come on dude. We could argue or talk based on facts.

Are you choosing just to argue because you have an agenda?

Or are you actually interested in a conversation that doesn't include a slight of some sort but instead gaining understanding?
  • + 0
 @BDKR: Is he or is he not a narcissist? It seems relevant to me seeing as he is the figurehead of the USA, which is the epicentre of this debate. Not to mention that he has some influence on the old gun control issue. I don't think that focusing on evidence (his quotes and actions are well documented and information about his personal behavioural history is abundant) and perpetuating an agenda based on fluff is the same thing. As an aside, DT said he would have gone into that school unarmed to tackle the killer. Out loud. If you don't find it nuts that someone so cowardly would make such a statement then f*ck it, yes I have beef.
Long story short, if I get you right, then DT is a sociopath. So if this is true of the PUSA, surely nobody in the whole country can be trusted with a fire arm. Just to prove I have no agenda, I suspect that Hilary may be a psychopath.
  • + 2
 @Spark24: incorrect. Look at all the countries who have banned or put strong restrictions on gun and look at the percentage of gun deaths. There are opinions and then there are raw data and facts
  • + 1
 @YouHadMeAtDrugs: I still don't understand why anyone would need an AR15. Legal or not. What is your day like if you need an AR15? or a shotgun. Its not that gun or dangerous or can kill people, cause you can also kill someone with a hammer. But, a hammer is a tool and some people need it in their daily lives. Not an AR15. I don't really have a strong opinion for or against guns. I also understand some people feel safer and need to defend themselves in certain places in the world. But again, why would anyone need to purchase an AR15..its that question that boggles my mind.
  • + 5
 @MasterSlater:
@MasterSlater:

Ok, here's your reality.
The inbred poppy farmers in Afghanistan have been ripping us a new one for more than a decade, killing my friends left and right.
The Vietnamese did a good job of kicking our rears for nearly a decade, with jack crap weaponry.
The Afghans drove out the Russians decades ago, with WWII weapons and camels.

You have no concept of what guerrilla warfare can do to a standing army.

Not even to mention, you wanna use that drone against civilians?
First, it's not legal to use the military against a civilian population. Ever.
Second, you're going to have to convince 14-20 people to go with your plan. That's how many bodies, between the ground crew, ops team, and analysis/targeting team that you'll need to run ONE DRONE.
Tanks then. They take a crew, and mechanics, and fuelers (they're thirsty), and a supply line to keep them running.
Same for bombers.,and fighters, and gunships.
Same for EVERYTHING in the military...

So you'll have to convince ALL those people to attack their own families and NOT turn those weapons on the leaders that gave them those unconstitutional orders.
As someone who did a couple jobs in the military, I can tell you that this will be a massive failure.

Also? There are no ROEs here. We can do whatever we need to or want to here. This is our soil, and anyone that stacks up against us to remove our rights will be an enemy combatant, day one.
  • + 5
 @BenPea: sorry to hear you live in a country where you have to see armed killing machines walking around at all times. Here we have a second amendment that allows me to own a pistol or a rifle. Why do you have armed troops in your streets? Honest question not trying to be an ass.
  • + 3
 Snowflakes...snowflakes everywhere.
  • + 2
 @Spillner: why would you buy a 29er when you own a 26er? Guns are to some people like bikes are to us.
Some pepole loves shooting guns its a sport/hobby to a lot of people. Not sure if you have ever gone out and shot guns but i can say its a kick in the ass.
  • + 1
 @BenPea: Who are you or anyone to say? No one has clinically evaluated him and found him to be anything but competent. Forget the hit pieces a few months ago, no credible medical evidence exists that the man is unhinged. He could simply (and more plausibly) be acting out a very awkward kind of political grandstanding. I don't like the man, he lacks many of the leadership qualities I would hope for but like it or not he was elected.
  • + 4
 @mustbike: You do realize that every gun except a bolt action, pump, or single shot is a "semi auto" right? And what good does restricting high capacity magazines do? what instead of a 30 round clip, someone can have a 15 round clip and have 20 of them on them at one time? This whole gun debate is laughable, it's not the guns fault. You do realize that ALL, ALL mass shootings in the US have occurred in "gun free zones"? Before these places were "gun free" how many mass shootings where there? Chicago still has the highest gun homicide rate, and the strictest gun laws. Maybe if we started enforcing current laws... that would be a start. But this whole gun control debate, is just the tired old "blame the gun" arguement and an excuse by a group of politicians that use "safety" and our "children" as an excuse to take away our freedoms. Sorry, this is about more than that. You have 4 sheriff deputies in this case, that DIDN"T DO THEIR JOB! sorry, rant over. This last tradgedy had warning signs a decade old and NOTHING, was done about it, maybe we should start reform there before bringing up the same old gun grab debate that democrat politicians start screaming about as soon as their is a tradgedy to push there adgenda...
  • + 0
 @brncr6: Because we have all turned the world into a big fat sorry mess (leading to attacks such as those in Paris and Nice) and having a few squads strolling around the place must make people feel safe (it makes no tangible difference though). I honestly don't mind and my kids think it's cool. Why would the government not make an effort to make those who feel insecure a little less so. I know that in America, people like to feel in control of their own protection, but I'm not sure enough of you are qualified to do so. I refer you to the numerous examples of accidental self-inflicted gun wounds, toddlers shooting siblings, etc. I don't doubt that the majority of Americans can be trusted to own a weapon. Unfortunately that majority isn't big enough to be worth the downsides. 1.5 million since 1968.
  • + 5
 @BenPea: Well, you've proven your mettle. But your response shows a lack of understanding.

1) Gun ownership has nothing to do with Trump. It's something that's built into our Constitution and Bill of Rights. Therefore he (or anyone else) can't just dismiss them. Pegging this on Trump therefore is a straw man or distraction.

2) Influence on gun control is ultimately the domain of the citizens of the US. Not politicians alone.

3) So DT said he would rush in and tackle him and you are offended by this? You are offended that someone would be interested in saving children while running the risk of losing their own life? This sounds like a collectivist. Like something the Khmer Rouge or Stalin would say because they both killed millions of unarmed people.

4) If you are basing DT being a Narcissist on his behavior alone, you surely woudn't have liked the alternative. This is the woman that attacked and shamed women that were raped by her husband, called blacks super predators, stole the primary from Bernie Sanders, refered to people in general as useless feeders, and took campaign money from international contributors like Saudi Arabia who has one of the worst human rights records on the planet.

5) Prove DT is a narcissist "if you can". I don't really care about Trump one way or the other, but I'm not going to say something like that unless I could place him before a panel of peeps like Bird-man and have them perform a diagnosis.
  • + 1
 @Spillner: Here you go.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=NN0vkSO9n8Y

This, btw, is exactly what the founding fathers of the US were talking about.
  • + 1
 @BDKR: thanks. Bookmarked and will watch this tonight!
  • + 2
 @BenPea: 1.5 million since 1968 is nothing compared to 150 million plus killed by governments alone since 1900. As a Frenchman you should understand that having had your a55 kicked on two separate occasions between 1900 and 1950.
  • + 2
 @BenPea: you seem to care an awful lot about people dying in the u.s. from guns. Do you speak up as loudly on other issues such as all the deaths that are caused by drug abuse which has a higher death rate for our kids then guns?

There are street in every parts of this world you can walk down where drugs abuse is rampant. How about the D.U.I.
death rate. Or are you just focused on guns?
I bet that kid that shot up the school thought walking around with a gun was cool too.
  • + 3
 @XCMark:

So true:
... The media is just really good at getting non-critical thinking people to think what they want them to think.
  • + 0
 @BDKR: Meant to upvote. My bad.
  • - 1
 You're a dumbass if you think political bullshit for little triggered babies like yourself can be more informed about bullshit that has nothing to do with cycling - then sure - be an ignorant dumbass - your tax dollars go into arming you military in Canada - so don't pay taxes - let the irs come to you - see what hijiinx you get into with that logic - if you don't buy from these companies you're the problem not the solution to gun control. As a consumer - wtf is that bull shit - as a human I know not to believe bullshit shoved down my throat - unlike you in this case...
  • + 2
 @MasterSlater: They'll gain more with the gun nut customers - not less - and the triggered babies who can't think for themselves can dig themselves a hole to cry in for all I care...
  • + 2
 @XCMark: there are many accessible studies that show a very small percentage of people with diagnosable mental illness are likely to commit violence to others. It's pretty standard procedure with the current administration to blame a group of people for a problem, and then point their fat little fingers at some government institution for failing to do something about it. At least this time they didn't blame "inner city blacks" or some nonsense.

Unfortunately (for most) the states have become a draconian capitalist society where voting for politicians and proposals means very little.
We vote with our dollars.

Now, I love Giro helmets, but they made a decision to sell out to Vista and the only say I have in that is not buying their stuff. Sucks for me, but it's just that - STUFF. Just like AR-15s are stuff. Stuff made to kill people. There are thousands of other guns on the market, but the idea of making a concession to lose just one drives a lot of people mad.
This isn't about the constitution.
It's about a bunch of spoiled babies screaming "I want my toy", and twisting the message into what they think is a more adult context using politics and divisive media.
Social change means sacrifice for everyone. And if the biggest sacrifice I have to make is not buying my favorite helmet, well, I'm one fortunate SOB.

Finally, taking all guns away is a band aid, at least in the US. We are a violent culture regardless. And putting more mentally ill people in padded cells is just that one step closer to subtle fascism. Don't need that either.
We need to cut these issues at the source, which is essentially extreme wealth inequality and to do that we need to inplement CAMPAIGN FINANCE REFORM.

Now, if any Aussies, Brits, Canadians or Kiwis would like to adopt me, please PM. I also speak cantonese, so Hong Kong is on the table as well.
  • + 1
 @thehardtail: Pssst...Read your link. "Expired in 2004"
  • + 2
 @Websterminator: So lets throw guns into the mix and there's a 50/50 one of us will end up dead.

Over a bike.

Genius.
  • + 2
 @vanmtnbiker: sensible gun laws and background checks avoided this happening. Canadian Tire did indeed sell "assault" rifles" up until last month. SKS's are the predecessor to the Ak47. You could also buy 30 round magazines riveted to hold only 5 rounds. These rivets can be drilled out in 2 minutes.
So what really stopped the terrorist in Edmonton? The fact that he would have had to go through proper training and background checks (which he probably wouldn't pass) to get a gun license. I'm all for strict regulations to be able to have access to firearms here and in the states, but i have little say as to their domestic affairs.
  • + 2
 @BDKR: Im pretty sure the French were happy they had the French Resistance during the time they were occupied by the Nazis. Armed citizens fighting to free their country.
  • + 4
 @brncr6: They weren't fighting anyone, they gathering intelligence for the Brits etc.
  • + 1
 @DiveH: I think you're more right than wrong, but pointing the finger at wealth inequality is as superficial and biased as blaming guns. It *might* help if there were fewer guns and it *might* help if there was less wealth inequality but the problem won't go away entirely even if they did. Inspiration/ motivation to do these things is rarely based on rational thought and tangible experiences.
A democratic society exists to serve the people equally, but that does not mean all citizens will benefit equally from it. Some will go far, others will improve, some will go backwards and the rest will stagnate. If society tried to ensure equal outcomes for everyone the cost (economic, social, personal) would be counter-productive for civilisation and repressive to the individual- thus defeating the purpose of a free society. We see this play in current liberal ideology where the needs of the few are valued above the needs of the many. I don't believe pure capitalism is the right path either. I think we need a healthy mix of both to ensure a harmonious and effective society
  • + 1
 @brncr6: EXACTLY!!!!

And having this experience in their past should show them that armed citizens are analogs to freedom, or at least the struggle for freedom.

This occurrence is far more recent than our own revolution. It's essentially in our modern time. How can we then say the right to bear arms for the purpose of self protection from criminality and out of control governments is an antiquated thing?

The genocides by the Khmer Rouge and the Indonesians against East Timoor started in '75 and '74! These are modern day genocides! The fact that these occurred within the life time of many of us seems to indicate that there IS STILL a need for the citizen to protect him/her self.
  • + 2
 @brncr6: So because governments go to war and the Germans invaded half of Europe 80 years ago, everyone should be able to own a lethal fire arm? As far as I know, there is no civil war currently taking place in the US, but thousands of gun-related fatalities take place each year through a combination of greed, poverty, incompetence and all manner of unfortunate events. If war does break out then good luck guys. I'm sure you'll all feel very safe cowering under the kitchen table with that cold steel clasped tight in your hands.
Don't get me started on the war on drugs. But this piece is specifically about fire arms. If PB publishes something about substance abuse, I'll be all over it. Deaths due to guns and drugs are both down to government dereliction of duty. In all countries.
  • + 3
 @sino428: Homicides by firearms are down historically since 1993. A lot of mistakes by the local and federal agencies there to protect the citizens on this latest school shooting. Lets focus on things that will actually reduce the gun violence. So far I'm on board with firing sheriff Scott Israel, firing the cop on duty who didn't try and put a stop to the shooting, firing the backup from broward county pd who also sat there waiting for backup, raising the age to own any firearm to 21, hardening soft targets, some sort of flag on your record if you get expelled from school and want to buy a gun, and better background checks. I'm not going to punish a company because a social justice warrior at pinkbike told me to.
  • + 3
 @BenPea: Yes but the FRENCH RESISTANCE!!!

That's why the US needs guns!
  • - 1
 @jclnv: That's why ALL people need guns.

The fool that says their government would never commit a genocide against it's own people is an ignorant fool.
  • + 0
 @BDKR: briefly, 1) yes I realise that and I'm not pegging anything on him, bit this is happening on his watch and I'd like to think he would choose to have a benevolent influence on a country he wants to make great again (again? When was it not great?) He can choose to be a part of the problem or the solution. That's up to him.
2) Is it? Or is it the lobbies? Or is the government so scared of it's people that it won't take the measures required to stop them killing themselves through obesity, guns, drugs, etc... Or is that a god given right?
3) Wow. If you think his statement has an ounce of anything other than bullshit, I think your judgment may be a little off. I'm actually quite shocked.
4) As I said, Hilary may well be a psychopath. I've exposed myself to enough alternative media to hear a lot of people say some pretty mind bending things about her with great confidence and some of that has stuck. She has the gloss that DT lacks which makes her a more slippery target of criticism.
5) In point 3 you make me doubt how receptive you would be to what I would consider to be proof. I would just say that the extremely wealthy seem able to get away with behaviour that would ruin them were they not surrounded by lawyers and equipped with the immunity that comes with power. This is a self-confessed sex attacker we're talking about here.
  • + 4
 @parisgore: completely agree with this comment. I, for one, wont be boycotting brands which I have historically purchased or otherwise ie: Camelbak and Giro helmets. Those are great products and I don't want good people put out of work because of internet/social media heroes.
  • + 3
 @BenPea: What responsibility do guns have for a "combination of greed, poverty, incompetence and all manner of unfortunate events"?
The whole idea of the 2nd amendment is to prevent tyranny, from governments or otherwise. Take communism in the 20th century for example. It is estimated that communist governments in just 3 countries were responsible for the slaughter of more than 70 million people. And some estimate that figure is as high as 100 million in Russia alone. These things happened. They're not figurative. We continue to kill one another using all manner of methods and technology so there is no reason to think humanity has reached a new plain of evolution and understanding where it won't happen again. To claim otherwise is to admit living in a fairytale.
  • + 1
 @BenPea: Uhh... Yes! Because governments usually don't stop at killing the government of the nation they are at war with. Ask Belgium how they fared during those conflicts? Ask the Poles and Russians on the Eastern Front (which had a far greater death toll than the Western Front). Ask all those people that were slaughtered by the Mongols under the reign of the Kahns when a city ruler didn't immediately capitulate.

You are arguing in the face of facts. Why?
  • + 1
 @BDKR: When has that happened in a Western Republic/Democracy?
  • + 1
 @Hoob93:
actually the answer is "it depends". In my firefighter / medic days I was threatened by an angry woman with a pistol. So I am aware of what that feel like. We were always much more concerned about chemical incidents. People commit suicide in the damnedest ways, so I trained all our people to never open a car door with a slumped over patient until after you have full PPE in place.

I have a friend who used to teach hand to hand combat to law enforcement in the US. His claim was that a knife is a better weapon for close quarters fighting. So is this angry man 3 feet away? I would rather fight one with a firearm. If you grab a knife, you get cut. Grab a pistol o rifle and you may just take it away.

I am also aware that angry people can create other weapons. Aum Shinrikyo killed 13 and injured thousands more in Japan with nary a firearm in sight. They could have killed thousands.

Tim McVeigh killed 168 people. Look at the recent "man with a van" attacks in Europe. How about the bombing of Asociación Mutual Israelita Argentina which killed 85 people. If I include the WTC attack, mass murders done with alternate means greatly outnumber those done with firearms.

The real issue we need to deal with is finding the cause of this kind of attack. Restricting access to one weapon will just change the weapon of choice.
  • + 1
 @jclnv: yes they were fighting and dying,check your history.
  • + 2
 @dtm1: If you are going to quote me, and even use quotation marks, please copy and paste exactly what I said. Although that other guy made a hyperbolic comment about banning all guns, his post was about mental health being the underlying issue. not banning guns.

I said, in response to his assertion that mental health issues are the problem and not guns:

"Why is it one or the other? Can't two factors be to blame? And can't we work to fix both? Will someone with mental health issues ultimately carry out their plan? Maybe, but wouldn't a few road blocks to buying an assault weapon help? Maybe in the weeks or days longer that it would take, someone notices something and get them help."

I'll ask again where did I ever say that guns should be banned??? Asking for a few roadblocks to buying high powered weapons like more stringent background checks or a longer waiting period somehow equals banning guns to you?

And again you need to stop with the useless statistics. I have no idea if they are correct but they are irrelevant to this conversation because NO ONE is saying civilians should not be allowed to have guns.
  • + 0
 @jclnv: The simplistic, supetficial fool in me equal to yours compels me to point out it hasn't happened in the US since the 2bd Amendment was enacted.
You're welcome :-)
  • + 0
 @BenPea: gladly take cowering underneath the table with a gun in my hand than cowering under a table with nothing in my hand. Its called a fighting chance which sounds like is something you dont support.
  • + 1
 @jclnv: The ad-hoc bunker scenario where the US Government annihilates a bunch of 'Don't tread on me ' revolutionaries is spot on and will happen sooner rather than later.


Here is what will likely happen THIS YEAR: When Trump gets impeached, his ignorant & delusional supporters will start an uprising, likely somewhere southern and isolated like Alabama. They will start planning a attack against Washington DC government facilities. Before the attack takes place US intelligence finds out and confronts the stubborn rebels who refuse to surrender because they thought Trump was God. Drones are sent in to clear up the situation.

This is the what the government will have to resort to, the 2nd Amendment has created a national disaster waiting to happen.
  • + 2
 @mustbike: The gun lobby will not get behind a program that reduces the number of weapons sold. It's bad for their bottom line.

Still believe nothing will change. Sandy Hook proved that. You have little ones getting massacred and the US Government did nothing. The US government has one key job, protect the people... they fail. The UK did just that when 6 year olds were murdered back in 96 creating a number of reforms to limit the opportunity for someone to be so heinous. That is an example of protecting the people.

I hope I'll be proven wrong about my perceptions of the US government and they seek to value lives over money.
  • + 4
 @jclnv:

1) A Republic and a Democracy are two seperate things. Rome was a Democracy and failed miserably simply because it allowed greater numbers of people to vote on laws that harmed individuals. A Republic is supposed to protect the rights of individuals but still use democratic processes (voting). We (the US) is supposed to be a Republic.

Democracies suck! The founding fathers knew this as well.

2) It hasn't happened! But the infringement of 1st and 2nd amendments make this possible!

If history is a guide, citizens should never become unarmed.
  • + 1
 @BenPea: my point exactly you will only debate drug abuse until pb writes an article about! You can careless until its is brought up for you to debate on. Thats called media control. Which all of are doing right now.
  • + 1
 @redssjerm: Are you, or the majority of american citizens harmed/ shot at daily? I suspect you're not. While not perfect, I'd say that Western governments, including the US do a pretty decent job of keeping their citizens safe. Cases such as Florida, while tragic are thankfully rare. Wouldn't you agree?
  • + 1
 @BenPea: You're all over the map dude. Are you paid to waste time like this?

This isn't about Trump or Clinton. Sorry!
  • + 2
 @jclnv:

BTW...

Benjamin Franklin defined democracy as “two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.”
  • - 2
 @brncr6: "tic tac toe"
Mutually assured destruction. Rolls off the tongue beautifully. But what if the guy knocking at the door has got a hand grenade? Hope you've got shutters on your windows, who knows when they'll come?! When things do go all Mad Max, I might steer clear of the US.
  • - 1
 @brncr6: that was a response to your "fighting chance" post
  • + 1
 @Deuce-DeuceAndAHalf: I lost an acquaintance to a shooting, the San Bernadino shooting. That's as close to home as I'd like.
  • + 1
 @Deuce-DeuceAndAHalf: Also was almost shot while in Denver to catch a baseball game. Didn't dig that either.
  • + 0
 @Flowcheckers: Yet another post that's long on attack on short on fact. You say this while completely ignoring the facts of history. The governments that commit crime or genocide against the people always disarm them first.

Feel free to prove me wrong as opposed to going on a Bill Maher'esque rant.
  • + 1
 @Deuce-DeuceAndAHalf: Had a shot gun pointed at me when I was 21 because some guy didn't like me talking to a girl that approached me. That sucked also.
  • + 2
 @redssjerm: The government has one job. To protect and with hold the Constitution and Bill of Rights. That alone, with no infringement on the right to bear arms would've been a better protector against criminality than the near police state the US would have to become to be everywhere all the time so it could effectively stop shootings.

BTW, this is exactly what the Israeli govt tried for years as a method to stop terrorist attacks. They dropped that and then encouraged all citizens to arm themselves AND CARRY!
  • + 0
 @BDKR: "not about Trump or Clinton" hey, one thing led to another and here we are...
I am paid to type stuff, but not this. Huge mission creep today. It's my time I'm wasting but it's kind of stimulating.
  • + 1
 @DiveH: Yup. Even if it didn't make a change (which I think it would) campaign finance reform, and the elimination of lobbyists, would go a long way towards reclaiming democracy.
I disagree on the padded cell thing. That's an extreme case, it might be as subtle as having a home for someone where they can become self sufficient while chemical imbalances in their brain are remediated by proper doses of drugs, instead of self medication with street drugs.

If you're mentally ill, you don't always have the faculties to know what is best for you. It is a fine line between personal autonomy and the common good.
  • + 1
 @redssjerm: What's your point.
I had a friend who was murdered by his wife with a hammer while he slept and I was beaten into a bloody pulp entirely unprovoked as I walked home one night. I was also left for dead in a hit and run as a kid...
Bad things happen; Bad things happen whether there are guns involved or not. Do you think I cry on about the availability of hammers, or cars, or that the government hasn't locked up everyvaggressive person just in case?
  • + 1
 @Deuce-DeuceAndAHalf: The numbers are VERY RARE. The chance of being shot in a mass shooting is up there with the chance of dying in a plane crash.

Let's look at some others.

*) You are far more likely to be shot in a gun free zone!
*) You are far more likely to be killed (however intentionally) by a health care professional
*) You are far more likely to be killed by some brain dead person texting while driving.

There are over 60K peep's in LA county alone that are homelss and we want to spend more money that could help on something rates rather low as far as dangers are concerned.
  • + 1
 @kabanosipyvo: Yeah, but only 7 of them are children (on average)
  • + 3
 @BenPea: "We"! You're in France on a continent rife with problems of it's own and right on the doorstep of major cultural conflict. There is no "we" here. You have a set of problems that you should be focusing as opposed to ignorantly commenting on problems that are not your concern.

Or is your agenda global?
  • + 3
 @BDKR: well if narcissists are mentally ill than your president is very much ill and should not get a gun by your reasoning!!!!!! and sociopath is no longer used...its just a psychopath ( which is incurable or and untreatable) where as most other illnesses are!!! such as depression, anxiety, panic attacks, schizophrenia, bipolar, etc, etc, etc...
  • + 3
 @redssjerm: Where I'm from they just break the nearest bottle over the bar and point that at you.
Why are you playing this game? You're not going to win. Not because I've somehow got a better story in the victimhood lottery, but because my premise holds while yours doesn't: Guns are not the issue, people are. Limit availability of firearms to those who have nefarious intentions effectively and leave decent, law-abiding citizens the hell alone.
  • + 2
 @Deuce-DeuceAndAHalf: you would use a PCL-R check list and check the axis scores....high narcissist and high antisocial would be needed for psychopathy....lots of people deny responsibility and accountability...does not equate with psychopath....these are narcissistic and or antisocial traits. These are the traits that are very much embedded in the USA gun culture and is very apparent by their politics and current president!!!
  • + 2
 @colincolin: NRA members come out in droves to defend their guns with their flawed logic. It's no surprise. In America shortly after a mass shooting, NRA folks will go on the attack and will not even spare victims of the attack if they speak out on gun control.
  • + 2
 @BDKR: Is Australia going to hell and a hand basket?

Adding more guns does not progress society. Having lobbies continue to shape our government is just a legal form of corruption that does not help the nation move forward.

Progress comes with adapting to the changes in society to keep us all moving forward. We all change for hopefully the better as we grow old. I'm will to challenge the second amendment and prevent those that are deemed not mentally fit from having a gun.

Yes, I understand this is a dangerous thing to challenge the bill of rights. It conflicts with mine and I'm sure many of our basic ideology. It scares the crap out of me challenging the bill of rights, that's why I whole heartedly respect everyone's opinion on this board (well mostly, the one's that bring thought) because this is such a dangerous thing that affect society's rights. I'm still questioning my views of myself and I hope me and all of us never stop challenging our own ideas and beliefs.
  • + 1
 @Bird-Man: Thanks for the additional info. I think it's unfair to characterize an entire population based on your assume prevalence of a single trait though. What evidence do you have to support that claim?
  • + 1
 @Bird-Man: This is kind of besides the point. If a psychopath IS a mentally ill person, then the concerns over ownership of weapons by these individuals is founded!
  • + 1
 @Bird-Man: Boom!
@BDKR: yep, a global agenda of love and peace. I'm dual nationality so I essentially have no we, I'm a citizen of nowhere as Teresa May would put it. Haven't noticed a cultural war here yet. Did Fox News tell you that? My kids' godmother wears a headscarf, so I don't have to take what the media says about this impending islamic armageddon at face value. You have government officials who believe Europe is burning because of... Muslims? The Hungarians and Poles will sort their shit out soon enough. The Brits will wake up.
Right I'm going to ween myself off this thread now. Vaya con dios.
  • + 0
 @Bird-Man: ",, traits that are very much embedded in the USA gun culture..."

And you say this based on what study? A mere declaration doesn't make it so.

Or is it in fact based on stereotype? That all gun owners are white racists republicans? Hence the reason you tied this in with Trump, when indeed the Bill of Rights has nothing to do with him?

Terrible comment.
  • + 1
 @XCMark: "brown people"? really??????
  • + 1
 @redssjerm: Nothing wrong with progress and change but you don't accomplish any constructive change when your under the influence of emotion and recent tragedy.

As proven, gun control doesn't stop tragedy. In places where the tragedies as such occur there tends to be more gun control. Proven fact.

Perhaps, a progressive change is to return to less 2 Amendment infringement and empower people to protect themselves.
  • + 1
 @BDKR: And that's why the US is a constitutional republic!! Woo! Big Grin

"2A - the great equalizer"
  • + 1
 @redssjerm: BTW...

John Lott looks at Australia to some degree in this article. It's a bit of a read, but if you're interested in fact over agenda then it's worth your while.

johnrlott.blogspot.com/2012/08/some-notes-on-claims-about-australias.html
  • + 5
 Don't let any of this distract you guys from the fact that if you or a loved one have been diagnosed with mesothelioma, you may be entitled to compensation.
  • + 2
 @Deuce-DeuceAndAHalf: We share the hit and run incident. Glad I don't share the rest.

My response corresponds to my reply to BDKR. I'm challenging what was written like the old testament.

Some of the thoughts that run through my mind, example: car accidents. Cars are a fabric of society, we try to create laws that limit deaths... such as speed limits and car safety (engineering oversight). Deaths are still occur but less people are getting ejected or burned or all that crazy stuff that may happen in a car accident. So regulation has helped. I look at that as a government coming in and protecting the people. Helping society grow.

Many of us been in car accidents and survived due to car safety improvements. That's why I ask myself can this be done with guns?
  • + 2
 @willycpc: As you arm yourself with your false security, overwhelming paranoia and barricade yourself with NRA bite points, most other Americans are quietly listening and filtering people like you out of their lives as most Americans nowadays know better not to hang around maniacs carrying concealed weapons because they are constantly paranoid of non-treats.
  • + 1
 @Batipapo: If this really is an age of reason, respond reasonably. Share facts that prove your position as opposed to ad hominem verbal assaults.
  • + 2
 @BDKR: Throughout history change has come upon tragedy. Tragedy often has us wake up.

Simply can't agree with your last comment, kind like what has been proposed by arming teachers. The rationality simply doesn't connect.

Okay, I have to get back to work. Will read the article you posted a bit later.

Cheers!
  • + 1
 @Deuce-DeuceAndAHalf:
So according to your logic: we should lax the airport screening for terrorists and allow for anyway to purchase and buy bomb materials? Weird right....we did so many things to prevent those type of terror attacks but guns are exempt from the logic and or solution. Odd logic but classic NRA response
  • + 0
 @Batipapo: Sorry, but history and research proves you wrong.
  • + 2
 @Deuce-DeuceAndAHalf: 25 years of working in a prison and other forensic settings.....12 years of post secondary education....3 published articles on the subject.....and its 2 traits and combination of dynamic factors as they relate to culture, religion, race, and gender......kinda tuff to really have a discussion on this topic over a keyboard......but basically comes down to people are really stupid and violent and have a tendency to be emotionally attached to their own ethnocentric bullshit to see the tree through the forest!!!!parasite's are we all!
  • + 2
 @BenPea: It's the classic non-logical argument. In the same logic they would lax the screening at airports, remove airbags from cars, stop motorcyclists wearing helmets and advise people against carcinogenic cigarettes.
  • + 2
 @Spark24: you feel bullied that 17 kids died last week and you're feeling threatened that there is a discussion around assault rifles? I am sorry how can we make you feel better. Should we also make lax security screening in airports based on your logic because it's been such a hassle going thru those lines?
  • + 2
 @BDKR: terrible argument.....look up definition of culture.......no mention of racists or republicans....just an example of people who think that their opinion should be everyone's opinion and that rights actually exist in the form of entitlements.......bill of rights is paper that does not protect anyone or everyone if it did .....don't those 17 kids have more of a right to life then you to have a machine gun......belief in the bill of rights is only real if its for EVERYONE!!!! that's the definition of reality!!!
  • + 1
 @BenPea: So in other words, you're willing to whittle away at the fabric of other sovereign societies because you want to be a "citizen of nowhere". That is the precise kernel of belief that leads to cultural conflict. It has nothing to do with color or religion. Instead, it's when large groups of people decided they want to change the cultural under-pinnings of a given location whether it be city, state, or region.

You brought in race!

That said, Communism and Socialism cast themselves as protectors of the unfortunate and promoted near utopian ideals. Of course, all of those a55hat5 that got in power then turned around and murder large numbers of their populace.

Please study your history. Peace isn't simply an agreement among those that want to feel love and peace. It's a preservation of ideals that protect peace.
  • + 1
 @Deuce-DeuceAndAHalf: With a monthly mass shootings are you that calloused enough to attempt to downgrade the seriousness of the ongoing slaughter. Don't you think it's a little infantile and superficial for you to defend the indefensible? Just saying....
  • + 1
 @BDKR: Boy you are a creep and delusional. Sad how people are that lost in life.
  • + 0
 @Batipapo: monthly mass shootings?
  • - 2
 @redssjerm: While less people are getting ejected or burning to death, are less accidents happening. And of those that are happening, are they because of the intent or recklessness of the driver or the car?

You can't make guns safer. You can make society safer by empowering individuals to protect themselves.

Legislation hasn't proven to stop this kind of stuff.

Societal cohesion on the other hand probably has something to do with it.
  • + 2
 @JLopez149: So now grab that number, add any other such knife related fatality in that country over the course of 1 year, divide by the number of people in that country.
Now do the same for gun casualties in the US....Guarantee you that is a bigger number. But then again it might require some additional neurons inside your lid.
  • + 2
 @BDKR: Incorrect. A republic has ELECTED (See democracy) officials and a president instead of a ruling Monarch. I have followed a lot of your posts, most of them have very vague and uneducated points that are not backed by credible sources. I see your arguments as null and void as your creditibity is definitely in question.
  • + 1
 @Bird-Man: Links to any of these published articles. Not saying they don't exist. I just wouldn't mind looking at them.

That said, the 2nd Ammendment isn't ethnocentric bullshit.
  • + 1
 @thehardtail: Read your own link, man. That law expired in 2004
  • + 0
 @Bird-Man: Who's talking about opinion. There are positions that many of us have taken based on historical fact and research that proves gun control to be wrong.

But if you insist on bringing race into it, gun control in the US was founded in racism!

Here are but some of the irrefutables that mine and many others positions (regardless of race) are based on.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=NN0vkSO9n8Y
www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-l7TO01-Sg
www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpyLpIjEESM
www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMZtPj9xdN8

Fact is fact brother.
  • + 1
 @Batipapo: You're kind of proving my point. ;-)
  • + 0
 @togood2die: You mean an ROI (return on investment)? So i would say that preventing a sinlgle 8 year old death far surpasses that ROI if that means banning the sales of assault rifles. So wrong and wrong....BTW, when the US military goes in any country (Iraq, Afghanistan, ..) the first order of business is to confiscate arms because they know it's a direct correlation to US military casualties so somehow, your military training has failed you on your logic.
  • + 0
 @brncr6: Honest question? I don't believe France is having monthly mass shootings so what are you so proud of? Are you proud of the 17 students who died last week, or the 20 elementary students who died at Sandy Hook? Or the numerous people slaughtered in Vegas? So yeah, you are not necessarily qualified to speak on the matter nor had you offered any meaningful solutions. There is nothing patriotic about your defense of the indefensible.
  • + 1
 @woody13fox: I'd take you're one of those Arpaio racist supporters?
  • + 1
 @vanmtnbiker: so true
  • + 0
 @YouHadMeAtDrugs: we dont have a prime minister retard
  • + 1
 @Batipapo: proud of my constitutional rights, proud of a lot of other things also. But asking someone if their proud of kids being killed in school is a really dumb question. The only thing lm defending is my constitutional rights! We all can talk all day long about gun control but in the end it not going to solve anything.
  • + 2
 @brncr6: How delusional do you have to be for such arguments? You make no sense and your logic is so flawed and impossible to follow.
  • + 0
 @Drewnose: "I see your arguments as null and void as your creditibity is definitely in question.".

So in other words, you choose to attack me as opposed to attacking the facts?

I wouldn't be on here if I was worried about what you thought/think of me.

That said, how about a reasoned argument against the things I'm saying? Or do you prefer to ignore history and research that shows gun control is wrong. I've posted links to various documentaries. Be a reasonable person and attack those as those have more to do with the conversation at hand than I.
  • + 1
 @redssjerm: I think we agree that any improved legislation should target the tiny minority who use their firearms for evil, reprehensible acts and not place additional, undue burden on the overwhelming majority of gun owners, who are generally normal, law-abiding citizens, without very compelling reason to do so.
  • + 1
 @Batipapo: I don't know what you're talking about. What logic are you referring to and what mental gymnastics did you unleash to arrive at that as the logic conclusion of anything I've said?
  • + 0
 @Drewnose: And BTW, I'm not incorrect about what a republic is. When I said "democratic processes (voting)", who do you think I was referring too? Hopeful Prices from Jupiter?
  • + 2
 @Batipapo: No, the initial assertion was ill-informed and the product of very little though (or too few neurons). My response was deliberately simplistic and similarly facile to highlight how foolish and unworthy of genuine consideration it was.
  • + 1
 @AutumnMedia: Based on the logic "if you don't buy from these companies you're the problem not the solution to gun control." so if i chose not to buy cigarette products or cars with poor safety ratings then i am contributing to tobacco use and or car accident fatalities? Sheesh....that is hard to follow. Sounds like the NRA shoved some hard to follow logic down your throat.
  • + 1
 @Batipapo: Dude I don't even own a gun - literally I'm a total pacifist - not even a knife- I just don't believe bull shit - simple as that - People that make cycling safe have nothing to do with guns...
  • + 3
 @BDKR: Wow...you must watch a lot of Info Wars and bunker news to be this paranoid. Referring to East Timor issues to justify your guns? Hummm........what an illogical argument.
  • + 3
 @BDKR: Presented to you by Fox News, NRA and InfoWars
  • + 1
 @Batipapo: Bombs dummy
  • + 0
 @BDKR: That hasn't been the way your postings have been.
  • + 2
 @Bird-Man: I wasn't questioning your professional competencies, I was interested in the references of your assertion.
If those traits are recognised in the general population, as fundamental characteristics of human nature then why call out members of the NRA and Trump as anything special?
I'd be interested to read your papers too, if you have them to hand and no objections.
  • + 2
 @BDKR: Your NRA agenda has worked out really well with the ARM ALL. Oh yeah, our mass shooting have been in decline as gun sales have dramatically increased...NOT...so your logic is far an non-factual.
  • + 1
 @Batipapo:

Above you said, "So i would say that preventing a sinlgle 8 year old death far surpasses that ROI if that means banning the sales of assault rifles"

Apparently you don't believe the life of an 8 year old Timoorese is worth protecting? How many of those were killed by the invading Indonesians because they couldn't get rifles?

I guess it's cool with you that 30K plus blacks were hung during Jim Crow and you don't agree with Rosa Parks who sat on her porch with her father with a Shotgun to stop the KKK from pulling 5h1t on them.

I guess you agree with Stalin that those 2 million plus Ukranians he starved to death didn't need their rifles to use a protection against state theft!

You're doing a good job of proving you're dumb phuck!
  • + 1
 @Batipapo: trolling?
  • + 2
 @Batipapo: delusional to be proud of one's constitutional rights? How so?
  • + 1
 @Batipapo: Funny that. I'm not in the NRA. ROFL

You're still failing. ;-)
  • + 1
 @dtm1: and what has any of this to do with kids shooting kids with assult wappons?
  • + 1
 @Hoob93: I’d rather fight someone with a gun. Referring to many law enforcement trainings and such, it’s easier to fight someone close quarters with a gun, than say with a butcher knife or any knife really. Can’t hear a stab wound, but you can hear a gunshot.
  • + 1
 @onemanarmy: It will make a difference if a lot of people do it. i work in this industry. i am fine with it positive change hurting a bit if its necessary. I rather make a few bucks less than see children slayed.

if you are cool with kids being killed go on supporting vista or other gun manufacturing companies. Its your choice
  • + 1
 @Drewnose: yes but they can easily take it out of their dads closet...
  • + 0
 @Batipapo:
"our mass shooting have been in decline as gun sales have dramatically increased...NOT."

That's a dumb comment. I'll rephrase it for you.

"our mass shootings have been on the increase with gun control"

www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAXZFTzquaw

The above is by a guy named John Lott. Well known researcher that's been associated with numerous universities and spent better than a decade researching this. Should I believe him or some dude tossing about pejorative terms on the internet?
  • + 2
 @XCMark: except D-BAG 45 signed a bill in February 2017 blocking Obama-era background checks on guns for people with mental illnesses.

Making it easier for people with mental illness to purchase a gun. Also, why is that you have to be 21 to buy a handgun in the US, but rifles, shotguns and assault style rifles can be purchased when you turn 18? (Yes.. i know it's the concealment factor, but AR-15 is far more efficient at killing people than a handgun.

P"
  • + 3
 @gabethebabem8: Its just a really bad comparison. Bringing Hitler into the discussion about school shootings has absolutely no relevance whatsoever,

But to your point: He armed up his buddies first, formed his own militia and armed them (SS) to protect his party. He used his buddies to start suppressing any opposition or resistance and killing or jailing up anyone that spoke up against him and his policies. He went on killing millions.
Little Fritz with a gun would not have not changed anything. In fact my grandfather told me everyone had guns anyway because they had them from WW1.

To me the shocking point is the policy similarities to what is going on on teh right side of this country.
Germany wanted to be great again. Germany wanted to be first. The rhetoric in today's America is freaking similar and that's scary but a gun wont help with that because its the gun folks that buy into it...
  • + 1
 @Rattles: You sure can. Anyone with an RPAL and a thousand bucks could own one by the end of the week.
www.wanstallsonline.com/savage-msr15-patrol-223rem.html
  • + 0
 @peewho: No gun is more or less efficient at killing people. If I were going through classrooms to murder kids I'd want a shotgun and a sidearm. If I wanted to sit on a hill a hundred yards away I'd take the AR. Or better yet the best weapon would be just driving through the playground. I guarantee I could kill more people quicker with a vehicle then a gun.
  • + 1
 @michibretz: The analog to Hitler and the SS today is Antifa!
  • + 1
 @brncr6: according to teh international red cross teh US and their few European allies also killed about 1.5 million unarmed civilians in these countries over the last 10 years.

Doesn't surprise me people are susceptible to being radicalized and taking measures in their on hands.
Over a hundred years Military interventions Guns and violence created this problem in the first place. As you can said guns didn't solve it in the last 10 years and the won't solve it in the future either. Guns never solve any problems. They are made to kill people not help them... anywhere in teh world.
  • + 0
 @BDKR: Take it easy, don't skin that smoke wagon just yet boy. I am not attacking you personally, this is a place for discussion and debate. The fact that you think I am attacking you is funny, make sure you have a loaded concealed carry weapon online. You never know when you will be attacked, and let's not forget a good guy online with a gun, will stop a bad guy online with a gun.

I am glad you pointed out that you don't care about what I think of you. I don't have any thoughts about you as I don't know you personally. You pointing that out tells me that you are a different person online than offline. All I have to go on is your posts which are essentially your opinions. As right as you feel they may be, opinions can never be allowed to outweigh fact.

The fact is, firearms are lethal. Any situation where a firearm is brandished as a weapon usually ends in tragedy in the form of homocide. The less guns that are available and the more control you have over those who have them will net less tragedy. It is good you referenced history, as history has dictated we as humans have undergone many changes in how we handle things. We have progressed from being ruled by tyrannical dictatorships and Monarchs to a free speech democratic system. Keep progression in mind when talking about firearms control, change is difficult and it is always hard to start with, but once it happens your society will be a better place.

It is difficult to present a valid argument to a person spewing antiquated rhetoric, uninformed opinions and referencing "YouTube documentaries" as credible sources of information. Therefor, see my previous statement, "I see your arguments as null and void as your credibility is definitely in question."
  • + 1
 @Batipapo: same here, was about to buy a Bell Moto 9... No thanks!
  • + 1
 @Websterminator: Oh my god... really? You have to bring the holocaust into a debate if guns should be easily accessible or not? thats so bad.... unbelievable!
  • + 3
 Boy... what happened to the mods removing pointless/offensive/etc comments? Lol... I can't believe some of the stupidity/lack of critical thinking/lack of historical knowledge in here. I was going to comment more, but forget it. I can hardly scroll down far enough to comment... well over 1k. Boy. Yeah, I've got opinions, but spouting them obviously won't change anything.
  • + 2
 @michibretz: And...

I have kids, my firearms are stored properly as per our firearms regulations. If a child can simply grab a fully operational firearm out of a closet then there is a huge lack of education and respect. If you as a father, mother, brother, son, sister, daughter, family member, citizen cannot take action to protect against the unauthorized use of a firearm then you need intervention in the form of tighter regulations by your government. Plain and simple.

Our firearms regulations are designed to protect against tragedy.
  • + 4
 @Deuce-DeuceAndAHalf: Feel free to also boycott MAN trucks which have been used to run over people in germany... these comparisons are just soooo wrong.
  • + 4
 @BDKR: i prefer the unarmed, i can run from them.

and by the way, i did not watch your youtube videos... i worked a summer in Mauthausen concentration camp.
People that have been their told us stories. My grandparents told us stories.
Nothing in those whiteness accounts of 2oth century history made me believe a gun or a war would ever be a solution to anything. rather the opposite...
  • + 1
 @michibretz: I think you mean someone else. I'm not condoning boycotting anything. I'm trying to get certain individuals to stop boycotting reason and suppressing their intelligence for the sake of facile ideological dogma.
  • + 1
 @brncr6: they were not fighting with guns...
  • + 0
 @Drewnose: You've really proven nothing there. Your dismissing facts based on location or source. So what, it's on youtube. If someone showed up on youtube and said 2+2 = 4 we could dismiss it because it's on youtube?

You are dismissing better than a decade of research and over century of historical fact because it's on Youtube?

Nice try, but that's the most unreasonable thing I've yet seen today.

That said, you've not proven what I'm saying is opinion. You are just saying it's opinion. Big difference.

Is the fact that gun control in the US for years was borne or racism opinion or fact?

Lastly, stop trying to smooth things over with a veneer of 5h1t.
  • + 0
 @Drewnose: And, for the record, what exactly is antiquated? Think carefully before you answer.
  • + 5
 @BDKR: of course it is!!! not too smart but ill give it to you, you are very angry, which indicates you are very defensive and hyper sensitive when you perceive to be threatened by those with a superior intellect or different opinion. In most cases a person would not be defensive in such a benign and obvious facts that people with power corrupt absolutely......and people with guns have been shown to escalate little perceived slights as the gun gives them more perceived power. The argument of protection is moot at best....you do not live in a war zone, such as Syria, Nigeria, south sudan , Iraq, etc etc etc.....so your argument for assault rifles is just asinine!!
  • + 2
 @Drewnose: good to know your firearms are safely locked! A lot of people are sadly not that responsible.
  • + 2
 @BDKR: Hold on bub. I called you out for not having credible sources for your facts. How is this for a nice steamy coat of veneer.

- Provide me with a peer reviewed scientific study backing up your firearms control facts, I am not talking about the facts in your auto induced YouRube rat hole.

Have fun finding one.
  • + 2
 @BDKR: You tell me, you just had to look it up on Google.
  • + 1
 @Bird-Man: And yet another strays off topic into the realm of personal attack.

A learned person such as you should be able to stick to facts and not resort to questioning the quality of the individual you are debating.

Fact is fact!

That said, by saying the argument for rifles not making sense outside of a war zone has a temporal focus. In other words, it looks at our current condition in comparison to places such as Syria and ignores the fact that our current condition can change over time.

How many people prior to Hitler thought Germany would ever wind up where it was in 1946?
How many people in the roaring '20's thought they would find themselves in the Great Depression?
How many 7 year olds anticipated being slaughtered in East Timoor in 1973?

You know the answer to this, but instead you're arguing in the face of facts.
  • - 1
 @michibretz: "i prefer the unarmed, i can run from them."

Not at 96. LOL

Seriously though, that's called a fantasy.
  • + 1
 What does Bell/Giro/whatever have to do with guns? They're BICYCLE HELMET manufacturers. Yep, one big parent company owns lots of other companies, often unrelated. That's the world of business... it's a money-making thing. Is a Volkswagen Passat the same thing as a Bugatti Chiron (or Porsche 911 GT2 RS, Audi R8, Lamborghini Aventador, or Bentley)? Would you take your LaFerrari to the local Dodge/Jeep whatever dealership for a service? Or race it against a Fiat 300? While we're at it, a Scion tC is the same as a Lexus LFA, right? And using Paypal (maybe to buy a bike on PB Razz ) is the same thing as SpaceX or a Tesla Model S/X/3/Roadster? Ok... car rant over. But seriously, I think that hating on Bell etc because of the NRA is missing the point.
  • + 1
 @michibretz: just looked at a picture of a French Resistance fighter with a British sten machine gun, photo was taken in 1942. There are many photos and videos of the French citizens in street battles with the Nazis towards the end of the French occupation.
  • + 2
 @Drewnose: Prove that they're not?

If you can prove that numerous genocides didn't happen and that John Lott's research is bunk, I'll give you that. I won't even call you names and get pissed.

But let's be real here shall we.

Did Communism kill millions?
Did National Socialism kill millions?
Did the KKK during Jim Crow kill thousands while legislating for gun control against blacks?

How many of those might be here today if they could shoot back?

And those three examples above just can't be refuted. Sorry.

And you can keep that Google comment. I've studied Empire, Geo-Politics, and International Finance for nearly a decade now. You can't wash the 5h1t stains out of history. ;-)
  • + 1
 @Drewnose: Thank you! Another level-headed person who can safely store firearms! Smile
  • + 3
 @onemanarmy: in that case, keeping with your logical arguement that banning a single type of gun would be a stupid waste of time (I agree), then the only logical solution would be to ban all types of gun.
Just like Australia did - No more mass shootings since.
Just like the UK - No more mass shootings since.

Glad we've agreed on that.
  • + 3
 @onemanarmy: if it's going to take 30 years to sort out then now would be a good time to start.

You could make the USA a better and safer place for your grand children
  • + 2
 @BDKR: according to your profile you are 50...

seriously though... it's a peaceful fantasy over a violent one and i still prefer it...
  • + 1
 @ryanm189: you can change amendments for the good of the people.
That's what an amendment is. It is when something has been changed.
  • + 1
 @brncr6: and I bet you now have quite strict control on explosives as it doesn't seem to happen much anymore.
  • + 3
 @CustardCountry:

I want my daughter to be able to walk at 2am wherever she wants. That's possible if she carries.

f*ck your feelings. There will always be bad people and disarming law-abiding citizens is absolutely retarded.
  • + 2
 @XCMark: True but you can't have mass shooting if there aren't any guns.
  • + 1
 @michibretz: Yes sir! 50 years old.
Old punk rocker / skater from back in the day! That was difficult as a black kid in the 80's.
Worked for the California Dept of Corrections Through the mid '90's.
Traveled a lot during and after that. Spent time in Central American and lived in South America for four years. Eventually lived for too short of a time in Turkey before coming back and discovering DH!

I'm with you. As a writer, I envision peace and I just adore love, amazing places, and the people in those amazing places. But as someone that studies history, I know those are delicate and willingly broken by people that have no compunction. History is chock full of the slaughter of unarmed citizenry.

That said, clinging to the fantasy of peace without the acknowledgement of evil is a tragedy!
  • + 1
 @BDKR: wow...you make NO SENSE!
  • + 3
 @Dangerous-Dan: I don't see how you can deny there's a serious gun problem. They seem much too easy to get hold of.
  • + 1
 @Batipapo: "wow...you make NO SENSE!"

LOL!

So here's a guy that's 42 years old, but argues and sounds like a 12 year old telling me I make no sense.

I guess your dad can beat up my dad too right? LOL
  • + 2
 I like guns, they are fun to use on a target rang with friends. But would I want to own my own one, no. Would I want myself or others to have easy access to them, no.

Most pro gun owner I recon they would say they own a gun for safety of themselves and the family, but how many of them have been on a first aid course. A gun won’t save a chocking child or heal a broken bone.

Lastly, if people want to relie on a 220 year old law for their gun ownership then the weapons that they are intightaled to own should be of 220 year old design. Change the laws to suit the modern guns.
  • + 1
 @mtbikeaddict: bell is a business. The money they earn gos into the pockets of Vistas investors.
If the flow of money slows down the investors will want to know why that is.
They will want to change that.
If the reason is the parent company is selling guns and supporting the NRA they will force vista management to do something to do something.

If the guns make them more money than the outdoor stuff they can sell teh outdoor branches to someone who doesn't sell guns, like amer sports for example.
If the outdoor brands earn them more money they can sell the gun brand and acquire a different business or stop producing guns all together and stop supporting the NRA and we can all buy Bell and Giro again.

It doesn't take much to stir up teh investors... if their revenue goes down only a few percent the will act, one way or teh other. most likely long before they start laying off people at the outdoor brands if the reason is clearly not teh performance of these brands directly.

It's all about the money... if you give them less the will start acting...
  • + 2
 @Batipapo: He makes perfect sense. It's your prejudices that are clouding your judgement.
I'm reluctant to bring this up but *apparently* (I haven't verified this for myself as much as I'd like) there is a surge of racially-motivated murders taking place in South Africa that is being ignored by those in power. That would constitute Government tyranny.
Certainly this does:
www.news.com.au/finance/economy/world-economy/the-time-for-reconciliation-is-over-south-africa-votes-to-confiscate-whiteowned-without-compensation/news-story
  • + 2
 @BDKR: You're right, that happened back then. Find me proof that John Lott's research is peer reviewed through an accredited process....

We are talking now... today... the future. We are talking about progressing firearms control, not regressing and worrying about how we got here. Like I said, antiquated rhetoric.

I don't believe Lott's research to be accurate, there are wild reaching statistics and brutal extrapolations from less than acceptable sample sizes for his data.
  • + 1
 @CustardCountry: owning explosives Im pretty sure was never my constitutional right. Cant really see going duck hunting or deer hunt with explosives but it is my right to hunt with a gun.
  • + 2
 @Deuce-DeuceAndAHalf: Fortunately that could not happen in the US, given the small matter of what I like to call "no native people left".
I'm going to check out BDKR's youtube vids. I genuinely hope to learn something.
This is all turning into a situation with no possible solution (gun control, not this comment thread).
I think humanity should be aiming higher (pun not intended). Nearer the brain rather than the penis.
  • + 1
 @theminsta: your daughter will carry a gun everytime she's out at night?
  • + 1
 @BDKR: John Lott the guy who was paid by the NRA to publish fake studies? The guy who was expelled from his career by his co-workers because of manipulation of statistics in his study. If I were you, I would read up a little more past the Youyube link you sent. I have a feeling you have been fooled in the same way the tobacco industry as it sponsored fake studies to discredit the association of lung cancer and tobacco. Good research. Do you have any more credible data?
  • + 1
 @Drewnose: on point!!!
  • + 1
 @Bird-Man: Glad you realize the insanity most Americans have to put up with and pay dearly with innocent children blood.
  • + 1
 @BenPea: You'd be surprised. Something similar has been attempted in the last year, just not by Native Americans. Will check the vids too. Agreed we should all aim higher.
  • + 1
 @Thustlewhumber: you gonna pull that gun out of your camelbak if someone's got a gun trained on you? It takes me a minute and a half to get my shock pump out, what situation are you envisioning where it comes in handy?

If you're in Alaska I 100% understand though.
  • + 2
 @BenPea: The grey history is mostly presented as black and white. To avoid those mistakes from the past, we should decentralize a lot of the power from our leaders to the citizens. The bigger the country, the bigger the problem.
  • + 2
 @Hoob93: @Hoob93: Just did a quick search looks like cars killed 40000 people in the us on average and guns 13286. Nobody wants to give up there cars or pay attention while driving or even cut down there driving in anyway. In my country once you get a license at 16 your pretty much set they dont ask you to take another driving test as far as i am aware. Nobody wants to change that even though it would probably save countless lives if people had to pass a driving test every ten years people might be better drivers. Cars are now being used as terrorist weapons and they are so easy to get ahold of anyone with the cash can buy a ferrari. Why do you need a car that can go far faster than any speed limit maybe cars should come with governors so people cant speed. You dont need a car that can do 160 but you have the right to buy one. so maybe if you own a sports car you have to have a licence for a local track and your fancy car has its govenor turned off when you are on the track. I only rant about this because the same guy whose arguing about gun control could leave work answer a text while driving and kill someone everyone who drives has a real world potential to kill someone by mistake at any time and we call it an accident and we forgive. so next time your five minutes late and jetting though traffic you could hit a group of people and it would be the same number of deaths as a mass shooting, all so your boss doesnt get on you about being late.
  • + 2
 @parisgore: I can deeply appreciate this perspective and I really like the products and the people I've interacted with from all of these brands. Unfortunately, I feel like the only power I really have in this democracy is with my dollar and I'm going to use that power whenever I have the knowledge to do so.
It's a shame the these good brands got bought by Vista, but the reality is that they are directly generating profits that are being used to fund the NRA and fight against Public Lands, two things I really don't agree with.
My dollar = my vote
  • + 2
 @loganflores: what's a car made for? What's a gun made for?
  • + 1
 @Jfisher77: the person with a gun doesn't need to be close quarters though do they a knife is only effective when you're within arms reach
  • + 2
 @Jfisher77: Of course knives are more dangerous than guns, armies never use guns soldiers say kitchen knives are much more effective
  • + 1
 @Hoob93: they are both made to be used
  • + 1
 @brncr6: ye but for what?
  • + 1
 @Hoob93: one to shoot and one to transport.
  • + 1
 @brncr6: stop being so obtuse it doesn't prove anything apart from you can't bring your self to say a gun is for killing because it undermines your position and your position is weak to begin with
  • + 0
 Killing in self-defense is okay. We need to arm our women and elderly!
  • + 2
 @Hoob93: i own several different guns, for the last 35 years and they were made to shoot, not a single one of them has killed a person. The cars and trucks ive owned over the last 30 years have not killed anybody. Its about being responsible. Like logan said being irresponsible can have both things turned in to killing objects. A gun can only be used for killing when its in the hands of a person that wants to kill. There is at least one gun per person in the United States so guns are not just going to go away there here now.
The most important things to us are our kids yet our money in banks are more secure then the kids in a school and thats sad. A lot of people are more concerned about gun control then keeping kids safe, go back to one gun per U.S. citizen, you think changing the age to 21 to buy a rifle will all of a sudden keep the kids safe in a school when there are that many guns out there already. Raising the age limit will not lower the murder rate.
Hell you cant even get on a plane anymore with a pair of finger nail clippers but somehow a kid can walk on to a school campus with firearms.
I dont know how but its time to make kids as safe as most everything else in this country.
  • + 2
 @XCMark: we are sadly an easily manipulated bunch
  • + 1
 @brncr6: should responsible people be allowed powerful explosives, land mines and AA missiles? The line is drawn there so why can't it move?
  • + 1
 @Hoob93: Why you trying to take our liberties Hoob? Stop.
  • + 1
 @Hoob93: last i checked owning explosives, land mines and AA missiles are not a constitutional right. Owning firearms is my right. AA missiles might help me out duck hunting though, now that would be a badass day of duck hunting!
  • + 1
 @Hoob93: heck yeah we should! I would love to recreationally play with some explosives and some surface to air missiles!
  • + 1
 @brncr6: oh ye I forgot it's your right good point. I would like that stuff aswell really but I accept that if I was allowed it then so would other irresponsible idiots, I wouldn't like that
  • + 1
 @Hoob93: you own a car? Other irresponsible idiots own cars. More people are killed in or by cars every year then pepole killed by fireams.
  • + 1
 @brncr6: yes and criminals were robbing banks with Tommy guns and bar rifles. Don t see that anymore do you? Because they were banned. Then renamed in the 60s. The difference between then and now is the far right media and nra sucking the gun manufacturers teet.

Calling anyone trying to stop the massacre a socialist.

And you eat it up with a spoon.
Reminds me of big tobacco 25 years ago.

Lobbing ie buying politicians should be illegal and I can't.for the life of me see why it isn't.
  • + 1
 @brncr6: were back here again. What's a car designed for? What's a gun designed for?
  • + 0
 @XCMark: 90 well the same conservative politicians that want no gun control also are against education the mentally ill and poor. And two of those things lead directly to crime.
And then in the same breath they back more police so they look tough on crime.
Conservative values are just screwd all around.
No
  • + 1
 @Hoob93: yeh guns we made to kill animals some were made to kill people. Cars are made to move you from point a to point b and its ok that irresponsible kill other people with cars because they were not made to kill.
  • + 1
 @michibretz: So we're going to hurt innocent employees in the bike business to make a point about the gun business. Yes, a boycott would exert influence, as noted in this article's update, but it seems like a rather indirect, inefficient, and undesirable action.
  • + 1
 @brncr6: it's not ok how many road laws are there to protect and minimize damage. It has a useful function we've become reliant on. Ideally everything thing would be closer together and we could just ride bikes everywhere and use trains and planes to go long distance.
  • + 2
 "@brncr6: i own several different guns, for the last 35 years and they were made to shoot, not a single one of them has killed a person. The cars and trucks ive owned over the last 30 years have not killed anybody. Its about being responsible. Like logan said being irresponsible can have both things turned in to killing objects. A gun can only be used for killing when its in the hands of a person that wants to kill. There is at least one gun per person in the United States so guns are not just going to go away there here now.
The most important things to us are our kids yet our money in banks are more secure then the kids in a school and thats sad. A lot of people are more concerned about gun control then keeping kids safe, go back to one gun per U.S. citizen, you think changing the age to 21 to buy a rifle will all of a sudden keep the kids safe in a school when there are that many guns out there already. Raising the age limit will not lower the murder rate.
Hell you cant even get on a plane anymore with a pair of finger nail clippers but somehow a kid can walk on to a school campus with firearms.
I dont know how but its time to make kids as safe as most everything else in this country."
Thank you. Salute
  • + 1
 @reverend27: another example other then a bank, ever been to Disneyland?
Your kid is safer at Disneyland then in thier classroom. To get into Disneyland they look though your bags and you go though a metal detector. But still a kid can just walk on to a campus with a firearm no problem at all.
Thats my issue.
  • + 1
 @brncr6: that's a terrible state of affairs when you have to search students like that. That's taking their freedom. Using your logic why should all students have to be searched just because of a few bad ones?
  • + 1
 @Hoob93: well then why should gun rights get hard for everyone because of just a few bad pepole out there? There is a lot of places pepole go and get searched before they can enter, court houses, sporting events, transportation.
What could be wrong doing it at schools. I love my son more than anything and would have no problem with bag searching and metal detectors if it will help keep him and all the other kids safer. Remember money is far more protected then our kids. Money is lock in a vault with alarms, cameras and armed guards.
  • + 1
 @brncr6: because a gun is a powerful weapon. Do you think you're son will feel safe "don't worry son it's just in case a maniac comes in with a gun and kills everybody"
  • + 1
 @Hoob93: I'm fine with having armed guards checking all bags and making everyone go through metal detectors at schools. Much rather do that then chance anyone taking guns into my kids schools.
  • + 1
 @Hoob93: You dont really care about the safety of kids do you. If you did care you would take every step possible to protect them insead of arguing about ideas other pepole come up with. You dont have kids do you?
  • + 3
 WONT SOMEONE THINK OF THE KIDS!! TAKE MY FREEDOMS AWAY IF I "FEEL" LIKE IT WILL MAKE PEOPLE SAFE

You should move to Canada Smile
  • + 1
 @theminsta: Canada has a more secure border then our schools, gota have a passport and there is a real good chance your car will be searched.
  • + 1
 @brncr6: I care more than you. I don't want to freak them out with scary ideas and infringe on their privacy. I care about their innocence aswell as their safety something you seem to have no concept of.
  • + 1
 @Hoob93: pretty sure they are freaked out right now. Never saw a kid freak out because there bag was searched and they had walk though a metal detector to get in to Disneyland. Thats what you call scary infringing on their privacy but its done tens of thousands of time everyday.
What is the difference when they go to school?????
  • + 1
 @Hoob93: you have kids?
  • + 0
 @brncr6: You're the one that won't give up your gun because you want to hunt even though it could potentially make a country that's safer for your children.
  • + 0
 @brncr6: so because you don't have a leg to stand on your going to say "you don't have kids therefore you don't care about them or understand them"
  • + 1
 @Hoob93: do you have kids? Like i asked before whats the difference? Really would like to know the difference of searchs at lot of places but not at schools. And no I will not give up my guns, ill be passing them on to my son when its time.
  • - 1
 @brncr6: this is never going to end we couldn't have more polar views on the subject. We both have a completely different idea of what the world should be like. Sorry but have to say your world is f##ked.
  • + 3
 @Hoob93: I don't think anyone should have to give up their firearms if they're going to hunt for food. The use of firearms for hunting is a vastly different topic. In Canada 38 out of 100 people own firearms, the vast majority would be for hunting. Hunting feeds mine and many other families. Giving up firearms and allowing for more stringent regulation are two different topics. The later being required in the States, but taking them away is not the answer.
  • + 1
 @Drewnose: Thank you for the response you gave!
  • + 0
 @Drewnose: I was just playing devils advocate really. People should be allowed to hunt definitely, I fish and keep most of what I catch it's a great feeling catching your families dinner from the wild.
  • + 1
 @Hoob93: my world is just fine. Happy family and a happy life. Nothing f**ked over here. There are hundreds of different views of how the world should be. Dont no where your from but I live in one of the best countrys on this planet. So f**ked i am not.
  • + 0
 @brncr6: Wales mate it's f**kin ace. I meant your proposed future world. You really don't get it do you unless it's written in plain english.
  • + 0
 @brncr6: "Nothing f##cked over here"
Apart from kids killing lots of kids
  • + 1
 @Hoob93: So let me get this straight. The trauma of going back to school after a shooting etc, it's been all over the news... that's better than any inconvenience that a quick check might cause? Yeah, I'm sure they'll be innocent; you're super innocent when you're dead. Oh, and don't think no one knows about this stuff. If anything, that kid would be "freaking out" because they know something could happen and no one's checking for it. By your logic, why should anyone or anything be checked? Sure, 9/11 (insert tragedy here) happened, but most people aren't bad. Let me right onto this plane, etc. What the heck? Ignorance isn't really bliss. Closing our eyes doesn't make it go away.
  • + 1
 @Hoob93: "Ideally everything thing would be closer together and we could just ride bikes everywhere". Bro, have you ever tried to commute any reasonable distance by bike?
  • + 0
 @mtbikeaddict: That's the exact sort of paranoid view that pretty much sums up the 21st century
  • + 1
 @mtbikeaddict: no only about 5 miles. Wish it was closer
  • + 1
 @mtbikeaddict: I did say use things like trains to go longer distance
  • + 1
 @brncr6: Let's see, does he have kids? He's 24, running his mouth, and avoiding the question. I doubt it.
  • + 1
 I love the fact that PB is sponsored by these brands...
  • + 1
 @Hoob93: Yeah, but those are like LONG distance, mostly. Anyway, after spending a week with a bike for transportation... 150 miles later, I'm happy to see cars. Smile
  • + 0
 @brncr6: "Like logan said being irresponsible can have both things turned in to killing objects. A gun can only be used for killing when its in the hands of a person that wants to kill."
"There is a lot of places pepole go and get searched before they can enter, court houses, sporting events, transportation.
What could be wrong doing it at schools"
If they're clever enough to find other things to kill with do you not think they're clever enough to find different places to kill like the school gates.
There are many things that are wrong with doing it at schools, where's the trust? It's a moral thing.
Obviously if guns weren't as easily available it would help solve the gun issue.
  • + 2
 @parisgore: You are wrong, and your own argument proves my point. If you say a boycott will hurt those working directly for the bike related companies owned by vista, it's because a boycott is affecting Vista's bottom line. You may not have any experience in that world, but for a big investment company like Vista, the bottom line is pretty much the only thing they care about, ( as you correctly pointed out). If this shakes out into an effective boycott, and their bike brands start writing red, you can bet vista will sell the brands without hesitation, likely to someone who does not manufacture weapons of war, then we can all go back to buying blackburn pumps that work pretty well ( but not perfectly) and be happy that we got some good, old school MTB brands out of the hands of someone like Vista.
  • + 1
 @mtbikeaddict: no I don't have kids I did imply that earlier on. Running my mouth lol
  • + 1
 @mtbikeaddict: trains are for short journeys aswell I did say "ideally"
  • + 1
 @Hoob93: I know... I thought about editing it but couldn't think of anything better. Really, aren't we all? Or is there some other reason this article is closing in on 2k comments? Big Grin
  • + 2
 @brncr6: Your point about there being as many guns as people in America is compelling. You're right, they're not going away and neither is the 2nd Amendment. You may as well try to empty Lake Geneva with a tea spoon. And if everyone can be responsible and stay safe, why not let them have this luxury that they are so attached to.
So I say this: if we assume that guns and the 2A are immovable objects, you're going to need in the region of say $1 trillion to provide education, universal psychological screening, counselling, social care and services, employment support, etc. to ensure that you have a happy, fulfilled population who don't sometimes get the urge to commit gun crime. So... more taxes? This is a genuine point, we all want to eliminate deaths from what is ultimately not a tool anyone in an industrialized nation needs to live, but is a nice toy to have. Hey, you may even enjoy hunting, which is great. People are imperfect though, so you need to get on with the job have straightening everyone out. It'll take time, but I think it can be done. Agreed?
  • + 1
 @brncr6: "Like i asked before whats the difference? Really would like to know the difference of searchs at lot of places but not at schools. And no I will not give up my guns"
It's a place where children go to learn where they should feel safe, what's that teaching them? That no one can be trusted? It needs serious thinking about before considering implementing that one.
  • + 1
 @Hoob93: would you please stop trying to make the same irrelevant argument... You're getting nowhere....where you going hoob.... Nowhere....
  • + 1
 @YouHadMeAtDrugs: the gun ownership rate in Canada is 1/3 of the USA rate.
  • + 1
 @YouHadMeAtDrugs:
  • + 1
 @Hoob93: june 2017 Manchester bombing. How did that happen in a country where explosives are not legal to own?
  • + 1
 @freestyIAM: As a Grad student in public health the credibility of a source is paramount. The problem with CNN is that it is already biased whether you agree with their bias or not. Then to make things worse the "various epidemiological studies" is vague and concealing. The hyperlink does not work and who's to say that these various "epidemiological" studies were peer-reviewed and not just the product of someone who wants to sway people that don't know any better to look at the credibility of the source?
  • + 1
 @mtbikeaddict: That was more of a request than a warning, I think.
  • + 1
 @scotttherider: it's completely relevant. You just don't like the fact there's a completely logical counter argument to your insanity.
  • + 1
 @brncr6: if they were legal I guarantee we'd have more problems with them
  • + 0
 @scotttherider: I don't know where I'm going with it but I do know that you pro gun guys always shout louder than anti gun people so I was just trying to give it some balance
  • + 4
 @Hoob93 @brncr6

You guys are having a furious debate, and that's great, though you're both demonstrating one of the biggest problems in US politics and culture today. All-or-nothing-itis.

In the western societies we regulate damn near anything dangerous as you've talked about and we all still get along, mostly freely. Autos in the US for example... cars can't be driven until 16 in most states, can't be rented until 26 most everywhere. Why? Statistics show crashes and deaths decrease with driving experience. Semis and motorcycles can't be driven until you prove you can handle them safely with a special license endorsement.

There are a range of possible mitigations to the gun violence problem and only a fool would admit that we'll ever shut it down completely. So how about we try some mix of hardware and software changes?

* securing school buildings with something like electronic badges so only students can walk in at certain times. most all office buildings have this, why don't schools? maybe metal detectors in some places? I don't know.

* make most guns a little harder to get... make some really powerful types of guns really hard to get (legally), like the auto/semi/motorcycle example above. raise the ownership age to 21, this's the same age we require for buying a beer.

* some collective willingness to get behind and PAY FOR mental health services. none of the above matters if someone is disturbed but has no options for help before they reach the point of no return. for many, friends and family aren't available *or equipped* to give the support that's needed to get someone back on track. i'd point out that in the US firearm suicides are 2:1 to gun homicides. that's pretty telling in itself.

I think in combination these small systemic changes would be a whole lot more effective than one big change such as banning guns or arming teachers or posting arm guards in every school in the US (which is so unlikely anyway).

I wish we'd think more in terms of AND... because OR isn't working very well right now. Plus we can only make reasonable guesses about what will work, you can never know (in this case) until you try some combinations, let some time go by, then adjust once we see what's working and what's not.
  • + 1
 @schnellmann: Hear hear!
  • + 1
 @Hoob93: I will always shout louder when my personal liberties are at stake! I completely understand that the mantis that we would have would be light years behind the us governments military but the second amendment is there for the reason for us to protect our freedom of speech and to protect ourselves from a tyrannical government and with how ourselves politics have been lately and the divide developing between our geopolitical politics I've never wanted to be more armed in my life. My stance also comes in large part with the fact that I travel for work but I at least want a fighting chance to get back home to my kids.
  • + 1
 @BenPea: Hey man, our national debt is like $20 trillion. 1 trillion would be a piece of cake... like 5%. Big Grin
  • + 2
 What's the point of adding more laws/regulations when most of them aren't even being enforced?

Government solutions are feel-good talking points for lazy, unintelligent people.
  • + 1
 @theminsta: that's a bit defeatist. What's your suggestion? A fight to the death between the goodies and the baddies?
  • + 2
 @theminsta: curious what US regulations aren't being enforced, exactly? because from my point of view - as an American - the ones relevant to this discussion are generally being enforced. the regulations themselves are pretty sparse, though. background checks... not all states/agencies contribute and what they do contribute is only cursory and often not complete.

in the current US system there's no *legal* way to prevent someone like the shooter in Parkland (or the 19yo today in Michigan!) from acquiring a weapon, or taking it away if they become unfit! in the USA you can't jail someone or curtail rights for a crime that haven't been found guilty of committing. you can't be for all for some basic liberties, such as gun ownership, then be selective with other fundamental liberties such as due process (this is the most fundamental of all).

Wild west every-man-for-himself solutions are for people who choose to live in the bush, well away from civilization. That's still possible in Alaska, Northern Canada, I guess.

fact: for the rest of us - nasty as it may be - *some* government and the rule of law above all else are necessary for modern life.
  • + 1
 @theminsta: bang that's the biggest thing in it all! @Hoob93 this is probably the biggest reason I'd never surrender my guns. When I obey the laws and turn my guns in what's to protect me from the gangbangers and people that didn't follow the laws. More deaths by gun violence happen in the most restricted cities and states by individuals that shouldn't have the guns to begin with. I'll tell you what hoob the day comes that they get all the weapons from all the criminals in the states I'll destroy my weapons. I'm a welder I can destroy them to the fullest extent.
  • + 1
 @theminsta: LOL, realized I should have included half of Chicago in the "bush" category with Alaskan interior, northern Canada. you'll definitely need a gun there. probably more than one. but that's barely civilization... i doubt you want to live there. and the reason Chcago's wild is because it's out of control, basically beyond legal enforcement, and due process keeps government/police from bombing it preemptively.

good and evil can exist at the same time, and in the same place.
  • + 1
 @schnellmann: very well said. Im open to trying anything. Im not a member nor have i ever thought of being a member of the nra because i dont think our gun laws are tough enough. I started buying firearms 30 yrs ago an have seen access to guns get harder. But still not hard enough in my opinion.

Myself, getting rid of my guns will not help save a childs life in a class room. Guns are locked in a big gun safe. I dont know what is going to work but im free to make my suggestions that could help solve some of the problems.
And its not just a gun problem in the U.S. it a problem world wide.
We have been killing each other from the beginning of man kind abd will do so till the end, weather its with a stick a knife, gun or nuke.
In the end I just wish we all make it home safe at the end of the day, even hoob93????(even though i do agree with him)
  • + 1
 @theminsta: Unfortuneatly for that train of thought, those laws and regulations are in place to protect everyone in society, you, me, us. Even the lazy and unintelligent people.

As per an example above, look at motor vehicle licensing and operation. There are very clear laws and regulations governing motor vehicle usage. There has to be a blanket policy like this in order for the laws and regulations to be effective. Everyone has to be given the same rights to be tested, licensed and insured. Until the time when they no longer maintain those rights due to a lack of required cognitive or physical ability or through contravention of the laws and regulations.

The same modus operandi can be applied to firearms control with excellent results(Canadian Laws and regulations). There has to be a mindset, culture and political shift for this to happen in a progressive way. The conversation needs to be about solutions that work for both sides of the debate, not "this is the way it has been, and why it has been this way." The whole point of this article and the boycott of a corporation's subsidiary companies is to bring awareness to main stage.

That awareness being that a huge overshadowing entity like the NRA is being supported by people and corporations. If the voters voice is heard in a democratic referendum then the next step is to vote with your spend. Where you spend your hand earned dollars matters, it matters in all aspects of our Global economy. You buy crap prosessed foods, you support the further commoditization of our global food supply. You buy products from corporations that support the NRA, in a way you inturn end up supporting the status quo of firearms control. Right now the status quo is kids are dying in their schools because of a lack of laws and regulations surrounding the possession and acquisition of firearms. We need progression not regression.
  • + 1
 @ryanm189: Alaska has the highest firearm death rate, followed by Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi, Wyoming, Montana, Arkansas and Oklahoma. Illinois' gun death rate is 1/2 of those states. New York's is almost 1/4 their rate. The reality is that, for the most part, the states with the most restrictive gun laws have the lowest gun death rates.

Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_death_rates_in_the_United_States_by_state
  • + 1
 @XCMark: you got that right! And to me its amazing that one or two people abuse their freedom, so to fix it, everyone must lose their 2nd amendment rights? Crazy.
  • + 3
 @XCMark:

You clearly do not know the numbers.

18 shootings in 2018 so far.
354 in 2017.

since 2013, the number of guns produced in this country has more than doubled.

Not surprisingly, there has been over 1600 mas shootings since 2013.
if you go back to 2004 when the assault weapons ban ended, you can just watch the number of shootings grow exponentially.

People didn't just become exponentially crazier over the past 14 years.

The country has become exponentially flooded by guns, as the result of massively increased gun manufacturing/sales in response to every shooting since.

GUNS are the problem.

The majority of mass homicides in the past 50 years occurred within the past decade.
  • + 1
 @mtbikeaddict:Thats bad but thats live. boycotting their product hover does not necessarily mean that employees will lose their jobs.

I am not even expecting them to stop selling guns completely.
For my part I would be happy if vista would offer a statement that the do not support and contribute (money) to the NRA anymore and instead will support legislation requiring in depth background checks for gun sales.
I think even the biggest pro gun person should survive to wait a couple of days or weeks waiting for his new toy...

I have served in the military and had to point a loaded gun at humans. The whole experience made me very anti gun. I don not want them around me or my family and the presence of guns definitely does not make me feel safe.
i know i'm not going to change anyone's opinion here and nothing you can write will change mine.
For me buying a different helmet seems to be the only thing i can do (I did today)
I hope it changes something and i hope no one lose his job or life.
  • + 2
 @michibretz: thank you for your service man! My one biggest regret is not having served in the military but I would not be in the slightest bit mad to have to wait a few extra days to play with a new toy! Honestly if gun control meant going through a process like what they have to do in Canada where it might even take months to find out I still wouldn't be mad. I'm just against completely disarming all citizens.
  • + 1
 @MasterSlater: Come get mine, if you can.
  • + 1
 President Trump says no due process when he takes yer guns away!

slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/02/trump-endorses-pre-due-process-gun-confiscation.html
  • - 1
 @jclnv:
Since this announcement, ill be buying more of these "evil" products.

America USE to have that culture, that culture is on its way out. Back in the day guns were like putting on socks. people still killed each other with them, but for some reason now its a bigger deal? Liberals and the media have created this new gun intolerance, but more importantly they have created an entitled, mentally ill generation that can't handle the word "no". They want the government to take care of them, to them every thing is the governments fault, personal responsibility is out the window The media has created this irrational fear of guns, obviously the threat is real, but not even close to the things that kill us everyday that could easily be prevented, for some reason the guns are the bigger problem. Alcohol kills 25K innocent people in drunk driving accidents every year if that isn't selfish and hypocritical then i don't know what is. Bottom line is we have a new generation of pussies on the rise who are willing to rewrite old laws and create new laws based on their feelings and not facts, its absolute total ignorance, literally everything they have, they have is taken for grated and haven't the slightest clue how America became America, a history book is like a movie to them. The US is doomed, prepare for globalization.
  • + 2
 @freestyIAM: Wait, so all we care about is "mass murders", we don't care about murders as a whole? Thats a pretty close minded and selfish way of thinking. Mass murders are extremely rare as compared to all the other types of murders, so why not fix those, because mass murders are so "horrific"? Its so much more scary to you so you feel that thats a bigger problem, but the reality is, its a much smaller problem compared to every other murder. Honduras is the murder capital of the world, with the exception of war zones across the world. In Honduras "assault weapons" are banned and have been since 2003. Civilians are only allowed 5 firearms, and they all have to be registered, civilians are NOT allowed to conceal carry. Switzerland has the lowest murder rate in the world, and guns are REQUIRED by the government, no "assault weapons" bans. Its the culture.
Its the people within the country, that are causing the problem, we are losing control, everyone hate each other, political hate is at an all time high, this country is growing more and more divided. No matter what we have for weapons we will kill each other, and one type of killing isnt worse than the other, every death is one to many. Banning one thing will not create this fantasy you dream of, people will still kill.

Right, and you want me to listen to a CNN article thats biased against guns? lol Hey, why do you think they have mental institutes, To keep all the people that are mentally ill safe from normal people on the outside? The problem is they shut the majority of them down over the past few decades, now you have them roaming the streets. I see mentally ill people all over the streets of boston, while they may not be shooting up schools (which is extremely rare, but the media makes it sound like an epidemic) they are violent, i've lived it first hand, the streets are riddled with these people.
  • + 1
 @Otago: Oh really? So people don't use knives to kill, the criminals just gave up?...lol What fantasy land do u live in?
  • + 1
 Same
  • + 1
 @sino428: the ultimate cop out when a cop runs out of a school he’s protecting. Or when the FBI knew over a month in advance and did nothing? Laws and government prevent everything clearly.
  • + 2
 @MasterSlater: Yes he absolutely could have. Multiple guns with multiple magazines. Handguns kill more people than rifles do x1000 every year, but those deaths are justified cuz it didn't happen all at once? Thats extremely close minded and disrespectful to the thousands that die from handguns, shot guns etc etc. Did you know rifles kill less than ether of those 2 i mentioned?
It doesn't matter, responsible gun owners don't do that shit. just like Responsible drinkers don't kill people drunk driving. Guns have alot more need than alcohol ever will. So you want to pick and choose which deaths are ok and not ok with rifles vs pistols?, If you want to save lots of lives, look else where, don't take away my ability to defend myself when criminals have Ar15s too. Please leave your fantasy land and come on down to reality, criminals aren't restricted by gun control, good citizens are.
  • + 2
 @Giro423: Clearly 17 people would still be alive it wasn't for "protecting and serving". You cant blame a gun when the Authorities completely failed on all levels.
  • + 0
 @parisgore: I have to disagree. Ironically firearm sales have gone down under Trump which makes Vista more reliant on other income streams; one of the reasons they've branched into 'outdoor' companies as I understand it. You will be hurting Vista by boycotting.

I know this will hurt people that are involved with Giro etc., but there are other companies making similar products out there – the industry is not limited to companies owned by Vista.
  • + 1
 @alee90: there's been over 9,000 firearm incidents and 36 mass shootings in the US this year. Over 2,000 Americans have been shot and over 4,000 have been injured since January.

There's been 35 cases of a terrorist using a vehicle as a weapon since 1981 – and none in 2018 – and 30 domestic since 1973.

It's not exactly an equal argument.

www.gunviolencearchive.org
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-ramming_attack
  • + 2
 @XCMark: This is about more than mental health. It's about an organisation buying politicians. It's about the interpretation of the 2nd amendment, and people hiding behind it. It's about a set of laws that enable civilians in a 'civilised' country to buy and own a military specification weapon without military training. This includes those with known mental health issues – the Florida shooter was a legal firearm owner.

The other spectre you raise of the media – how come it wasn't immediately released that the Florida shooter had far-right symbolism on his clips? If he was wearing a turban or had darker skin do you think Fox News would have let that pass? There's a lot more going on that just treatment of mental health (although I agree – treatment could do with more funding on both sides of the Atlantic).

To add some figures to the discussion, there's been over 9,000 firearm incidents and 36 mass shootings in the US this year. Over 2,000 Americans have been killed in shootings and over 4,000 have been injured since January.

With regard to other 'mass homicides' there's been 35 cases of a terrorist using a vehicle as a weapon since 1981 – and none in 2018 – and 30 domestic since 1973.

Otherwise – outside a warzone – you're looking at bombs as effective weapons for killing and maiming large volumes of people, and they're pretty hard to get hold of (but actually easy to make). However, it's not a tool of choice – probably due to the effort involved – especially if you can get buy a semi-automatic rifle and a bump-stock online.

If you have other mass homicides in mind I'd be happy to stand corrected. Bear in mind that most mass homicides happen in conflict zones though – not suburbs of one of the richest countries in the world.

In my mind mental health does play a part but so does culture, and it's here that hateful speech by people like Trump and Lapierre are poisoning people. A bad man with a gun may – or may not – be stopped by a good guy with a gun, but that's also two gun sales and two NRA memberships.

www.gunviolencearchive.org
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-ramming_attack
  • + 1
 I’ve watched Bowling for Columbine, and i think people who watched that movie should already know the answer to this firearms (not just gun) crisis. Just need to be open minded
  • + 1
 @PimpmasterJazz: thats 2 gun sales and 2 nra memberships. Hope you dont think every gun owner is a nra member.
  • + 1
 @Batipapo: You're an oversimplifying, stereotyping idiot. Although I'm a conservative, I voted against McCain and Arpaio because I HATE career leeches and hypocrites...you know, like liberals.
  • + 1
 www.pinkbike.com/photo/15657637
so what's next should we all stop using silverware because people are getting fat. As people we always want to make excuses but people are the problems not objects.
  • + 0
 @PimpmasterJazz: Right... because the only type of mass killing, other then by guns, is by vehicles. Rolleyes So people never use explosives, or anything else. The Boston Marathon doesn't count. The OKC bombing doesn't count. The Bath massacre doesn't count. All those other killings (school and otherwise) that had a different WOC don't count. Since an attempted school shooting/bombing (where bombs would be a large part) was just stopped within a few miles of me, that's crap. And if we're talking about lots of killings in general, don't forget serial killers. 3x as many serial killers use other weapons. But I digress. And not every gun owner is a member of the NRA. Hope I've cleared some stuff up.
  • + 0
 @PimpmasterJazz: Edit: I misspoke/typed. That should've been "3x as many victims". The proportion of killers is even bigger.
www.guns.com/2014/10/10/quarter-of-serial-killer-subgroup-used-guns-in-murders-fbi-study-finds
  • + 1
 @PimpmasterJazz:" the bomb is not the tool of choice" what will be the tool of choice if guns are not accessible anymore? Weapons have evolved with time. 100s millions of people were killed/murdered before guns and will continue to happen after guns.
A bomb is a much more effective killing weapon with a firearm you have to look at the person you want to kill and pull the trigger. Bomb you leave and wait for it to do the dirty work.
I would much rather face a gun then a bomb.
  • + 1
 Here's an interesting speech that just happened today
m.youtube.com/watch?v=KqqJKChKRzI
  • + 1
 Amen to that@XCMark:
  • + 1
 @Rattles: you sure can. There are an estimated 100,000 AR-15 in Canada. 50,000 documented and many more bought before registry
  • + 1
 @Batipapo: do you not see the mass murders happening overseas with bombs, suicide vests etc?
  • + 1
 @Flowcheckers: Japan also doesn't have open borders allowing endless people in. Restricted borders are a great way to control violence.
  • + 1
 I'd honestly meet a man with a gun. A person willing to drive the blade of a knife into your chest is on another level of crazy.
  • + 2
 @tcr1: I've always said this!
  • + 1
 @foxxyman: I agree.
  • + 1
 @Rattles: oh no not semi autos! Do you need a safe place to hide cause something exists? Lots of them are legally owned in Canada. Get educated before you shoot your mouth off. I bet ya there more Canadian gun owners on here then you think, besides the punk ass kids on there that think they are adults anyway
  • + 1
 The funny parrt is that this post has 77000 views but Aaron Gwins "top secret" bike covered in a diaper with no info and he didn't even race has over 79000 views.
  • + 1
 @philo: I know a few Canadians with semi-autos. Honestly wouldn't care if the states ran their background checks and gun buying process like BC did. Maybe make the process so more people can qualify for handguns and semiauto rifles but similar timelines. Don't you guys only offer a certain number of registrations for anything beyond hunting and waterfowl guns?
  • + 1
 @XCMark: A mentally ill person would have a much harder time murdering 50 people at a concert, or dozens of children at a school if they didn't have access to weapons intended for mass killing. That's what assault weapons are by they way, they are intended to kill many people quickly.
The mentally ill person (since we're assuming all people committing these atrocities are in fact mentally ill) might presumably still manage to kill a few people by using a knife or some other weapon, but the reality is that without the guns many fewer children would be murdered at school.
So then it is simple logic - the pro gun people believe their "Right" to own these weapons is more important than the lives of children.
Since Sandy Hook Elementary in 2012 where 20 six year old children, and 6 teachers were murdered there have been over 260 school shootings in the United States.
Do we really need access to guns at this cost?
  • + 2
 Just got done checking on my guns to make sure they haven't gone out and shot at any one. They are still locked up and behaving nicely.
  • + 2
 @brncr6: One of mine is looking mighty shady as my passenger right now...
  • + 2
 @brncr6: #judgeasmycopilot
  • + 2
 @Ryanrobinson1984: no, not incorrect... My facts are straight... I live in RSA and it's violent crime stats per capita are worse than the USA ... The point remains that a blanket ban on guns does not always work in every case... Socio-economic factors are the key contributors in our country, and your social ills are what's causing gun violence too... A gun doesn't pull it's own trigger
  • + 1
 Like Cris Rock said , anyone can have a gun but make the bullets $500 a piece.
  • + 1
 @Hoob93: 1950 - july 2016 98.4% of mass shootings happened in gun free zones...just saying...
  • + 1
 @baggyferret: Can you stop with the facts? Can't you see that the people in power are simply trying to make stupid laws to slowly restrict/remove gun ownership so they can have a dictatorship in a few generations??
  • + 1
 @theminsta: i can see that, yes. Pointing out that killers dont follow laws.
  • + 1
 11 teens die on average per day texting and driving Kids under the age of 18, 7 will be killed by a firearm per day. 1,460 more teens dieing each year from texting and driving then being killed by a firearm. Need to pass a law where you cant own a cell phone till your 21 years old to stop all the deaths from texting and driving.
  • + 2
 @melled74: Dude the hell are you talking about. Savage makes great rifles man. Im curious to which one you shot because ive only experienced good things with mine.
  • + 2
 @Rattles: Sure can buy that gun in Canada. And plenty more like it. Hell, here is a package deal for an AR15 and a Glock 22 for like $1300 frontierfirearms.ca/smith-and-wesson-m-p-15-sport-ii-5-56-glock-22-gen-3-40-s-w-combo
  • + 1
 @kabanosipyvo: yeah its the ones we want to die. gang on gang and suicides.
  • + 0
 @Otago: those people also wipe their own ass with their hand. here is the US we mill our own guns and build them from scratch. guns are going no where. we don't surrender like you pussies in austraila and bosnia
  • + 3
 This article posted last month and now you're all long-term debating?

Not an emotional topic at all, and good to see so much open mindedness in the discussions.

Next month Richard Cunningham asks: "Is it a good idea to open carry on group rides?"
  • + 1
 @melled74: glad somebody said it lol
  • + 1
 @sino428: just for the record, you can’t buy “assault weapons” legally.
  • + 1
 @onemanarmy: correct. A lot fewer murders per capita in Bosnia.
  • + 1
 @ajp1: It's not that simple. All you really did was prove so many peoples points.

They also have 1/6th the drug problems. 15-20% more law enforcement per capita. 1/7th of the home invasions. No gang problems. Etc etc

It's a cultural issue.

Give them another 25 years removed from civil war and unrest and the stats will likely be much closer. Our country doesn't give two shits about they're neighbors. Countries that are or recently have gone through serious issues are often much tighter nit because they're all suffering together. Just a theory though.

The U.S. is jacked up and guns are just the most obvious thing to point out... not by any means the real issue.
  • + 0
 @PimpmasterJazz: Well guess what, Firearms sales will go through the roof as we speak, thanx to the liberlas wanting a gun ban. Liberals are the best firearms sales group in the nation.
with that being said i will not enter and REI till the day i die, nor will i be the only one.
I'll buy vista products somewhere else to lend my support, and so will plenty of others, REI is hardly bargain central anyway.
  • + 0
 @PimpmasterJazz: Guess what 2/3rds of those are suicides, That cuts the number down significantly. We have a people problem, a mental health problem, and a government that doesnt do their job, its just that simple. You ban guns or AR15's, the real problem wont magically disappear.
  • + 1
 @rkwjunior: also if you increase mental health treatment the gun problems won't just magically go away
  • + 1
 @vicrider:

Do you know how many people die from drunk drivers? 25,000k every year. Do we really need access to alcohol at this cost? Funny we blame the driver, not alcohol, which is the catalyst for the killing of an innocent life or lives, but god forbid, Americans cant live without booze. You simply are to ignorant to understand the importance of the 2nd amendment, and this countries freedom comes at a cost, death, and it always will.
I'm sorry but you cant pick and choose what death is worse the the next , they are all precious lives. The sad part is you think its so simple, talk about a close minded thought process, how about fix the real issues and leave peoples rights the f*ck alone.
The government f*cked up 100% on this situation, nobody else, they answered over 30 calls of violence against this kid and did nothing, you know why? Read below.

Max Eden, a senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute, explained in City Journal how an Obama-era Department of Education initiative designed to put an end to the “school to prison pipeline,” combined with local mismanagement, helped allow the shooter to fall through the cracks.
“In 2013, the school board and the sheriff’s office agreed on a new policy to discontinue police referrals for a dozen infractions ranging from drug use to assault,” Eden wrote.
A separate report by RealClearInvestigations found that Broward County was part of a “vanguard of a strategy, adopted by more than 50 other major school districts nationwide, allowing thousands of troubled, often violent, students to commit crimes without legal consequence.”
This was part of a larger Obama administration effort, launched in 2011, to reduce racial disparities in school discipline numbers, according to RealClearInvestigations.
“Students charged with various misdemeanors, including assault, would now be disciplined through participation in ‘healing circles,’ obstacle courses, and other ‘self-esteem building’ exercises,” the report said.
“We must ensure that school discipline is being handled by trained educators, not by law enforcement officers,” saidformer Secretary of Education John King in 2016. “Some schools are simply turning misbehaving students over to [school resource officers]. This can set students on a path to dropping out or even to prison.”
Florida’s Broward County, which is where the Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School shooting took place, was a leader in adopting this new program and was even touted for it by former Education Secretary Arne Duncan.
The number of school arrests dropped dramatically in the years that followed, but that didn’t mean serious crimes weren’t taking place.
The Parkland shooter was involved in a number of alarming incidents, including assault and bringing bullets to campus, for which he was eventually moved to another school.
Yet the police never arrested the shooter or expelled him, which is in part why he passed a federal background check and was able to purchase a firearm.

A life is a life, what does it matter what weapon is used. Its sad that you can decide what deaths are ok and what deaths are not, If its preventable then do something about it? An ar15 death is way worse than any other death cuz you buy into the media scare tactics, its that simple. Don't condemn good people for the acts of a bunch of maniacs.
  • + 1
 @Hoob93: Maybe if the FBI did their job, maybe if the laws on the books were actually enforced, it would shock you how many criminals are let back out on the streets with dropped charges.

"If it saves just one life", that's what the liberals say.
  • + 1
 @rkwjunior: nobody gave a flying f××k about gun control the day before the shooting, it was all Trump/Russia because thats all news talked about. Now its just gun control until they decide to tell us what to cry about next.
We will all have forgotten gun control just like always.
Ill still have my guns.
  • + 1
 @rkwjunior: more tax, more resources for the fbi
  • + 0
 Teen attemps to detonate bomb at Utah highschool. Just happened. Look it up.
Good thing he was a crappy bomb maker.
Were are you focussing your outrage about this???? Still guns right cant be anything else.
  • + 1
 @brncr6: Explosives are already illegal so they are harder to come by.
you have to make them yourself which requires a lot of knowledge, skill and equipment.
You can't just go to Dicks with your credit card spend a few hundred bucks and start killing people.

that's why you have one attempt vs 18 gun incidents.

I am totally Ok with people having assault rifles if they have to make them and the ammunition themselves at home.

we don't need to discuss this...
  • + 0
 @michibretz: You're right. We don't need to discuss this, as you clearly don't realize how easily one can make/get explosives/ammo.
  • + 1
 @mtbikeaddict: the example about explosive @brncr6 brought forward cleary said the kid was not successful hence it might not be as easy as you think.

Making a bomb needs to researched, planned and built. Figuring it out and getting all the stuff you need will take you a while. Its not like if someone heckles a kid in school said kid can run over to a sporting goods store, buy a bomb and slaughter his/her classmates. With guns that's possible.

The point is its absolutely insane to argue that we should not do anything about school shootings because there is other ways children can die as well!

40-50 Years ago Airplanes were falling out of the sky on a daily bases killing everybody on board. But after every accident planes are grounded and the cause is investigated. After the reason is found rules established to make sure whatever caused an accident won't happen again. Step by step traveling by plane became one of the safest ways to get from A to B.
Wouldn't you consider it insane if the NTSB would go "well, i guess the people could have died in a some other sort of accident as well, let's fly on as if nothing happened"???

Its time to ground those guns, (stop selling them) and figure out why kids bring them to schools and kill their classmates. I think making sure schools are save and our children can live without having to worry about being gunned down should be more important than some person having to wait for their semi automatic toy for a little longer.

I am really looking forward to your answer. Will it be: "No i can't wait for an in depth background check to be done. I don't care if children die!!!!" ????
  • + 1
 You guy are really going to beat this one to absolute insanity. My Girl, Bell , CamelBak, Federal ammo and rifle's all still work, even after some Canuckwhipes from 3000 miles try to take a "stand". Girl, Fedral and gun sales stay soaring. Stock buying time$$$$$$
  • + 1
 @fecalmaster:
Yeah go for it! i like the thought of you having less money for ammunition...
Vista stock was worth about 50$ in June 2015 and is worth around 16 today...
Vistas business was already 11% down for the last quarter before retailers started droping them because of the gun manufacturing and the whole gun market is 10% year to date.

investors.vistaoutdoor.com/Stock
news.vistaoutdoor.com/2018-02-08-Vista-Outdoor-Announces-Solid-FY18-Third-Quarter-Operating-Results
  • + 2
 @Flowcheckers: I always carry when I ride.
  • + 1
 @michibretz: You have a lot to learn about ammunition,,, my bank account also evidently.
  • + 1
 @BenPea: They ignored 39 warnings. tax bullshit.
  • + 1
 @BenPea: Of course this is coming from france, tax tax tax.
  • + 1
 @fecalmaster:
i learned a bit in the army, more than i wanted to in fact.
you are right when it comes to your bank account, no clue and also no interest but you might want to double check your balance...

outdoor magazin from march second: " the policy changes by MEC and REI seem to be having an effect. As of this morning, Vista Outdoor stock was down more than 10 percent. Over the last five days, its stock has dropped more than 15 percent."

i am not an expert on the stock market but i don't believe thats how you make money unless you are trading in derivatives...

www.outsideonline.com/2285796/rei-announces-halt-orders-vista-outdoor
  • + 1
 @michibretz: i may be wrong but dont you want to buy stocks when they are low and then sell when they raise back up again? I dont play the stock game.
  • + 1
 @brncr6: Valid point. I am not a stock gambler either...
... unless i am looking for a long term investment over multiple years i would not buy shares from a company that is already under stress because of declining sales over the last 2 years and then suddenly faces challenges in its distribution challenges like mayor national retail chains not placing orders any more.

Yes, you can bet on a limping horse for a god quote but it might not make it to the finish line.
  • + 0
 So the whole boycott is just a stock market scam... figures.
  • + 1
 @rkwjunior: Ok, so you believe funding is not the problem. So was the FBI essentially a co-conspirator in the shooting? Were they looking for an excuse or leverage to fuel the gun control debate further? So that they could move the dial closer to more stringent regulations? So that they wouldn't have to deal with more of these kinds of incidents in the future as kids feel increasingly disenfranchised and uncared for by society? I don't know, I'm trying to see it from all angles...
  • + 1
 @michibretz: Thanks for the concern but all accounts and weapons in tact. Fortunately I have $0 stock in any sporting outfits. My portfolio actually went up $4200 last week lol. Can get a nice frame and alot of ammo with that.
  • + 2
 @Flowcheckers: I actually do enjoy that read. thank you for sharing that link.

I build a lot of motorcycle and bike components for and work and personal use using 3D printing and other rapid prototyping technologies.
Now doubt that it's possible but i wouldn't call it easy or simple or cheap by any means.
  • + 0
 I wouldn't bust a homemade joint ever. Back to the market,,, Vista is primo buy right now by all my sources. Get in while you can. By next year that's a new bike.
  • + 1
 @fecalmaster: Vista will drop further. This is the start of public backlash. Buy now, and prepare to lose half your money.
  • - 1
 @FLATLlNE:

Indeed. They really mishandled this situation. They'll continue to drop but they'll rebound.

I think some folks on the board need to get canned. It was sorely mismanaged... likely because of the sizable egos of many of the folks that are from the Vista gun/ammo side of the business.

I still think these boycotts are absolutely insane... they make about as much sense as students doing walk outs on their schools to voice opinions on gun violence. Yo... your education has nothing to do with this and neither does your school. My opinion... walk out... get suspended just like any other person ditching class.
  • + 0
 @onemanarmy:
Wtf? So the kids that just survived a school shooting opinion doesn't count?

Vista is the Corporation, Bell, Giro, Federal Ammunition and Savage are Brands this corporation owns the rights to. Just Like general motors sells Chevrolets and GMC's and Cadillacs but its always GM.
It's the corporations board that make the decision what happens. It's the corporations shareholders that earn the money. It's the Corporation that supports the NRA.
The reality is the brands are nothing but a sticker on a product. They might not have been when they were first founded but they are definitely are now.

Don't Believe me? Go to camelback website and click on careers. Click the apply button and watch how you get transferred on the Vista Outdoor Workday website because that's who you are going to work for...
  • - 1
 Like I said portfolio doing awesome! The day I take stock advice from a Canadian,,,, ehhhhhh. I'd get a job at Vista just because they support the NRA like GM and most companies. Do your kids like Disney,,, lol,,, don't even look at them. Also would like a discount on Fedreral ammo since I've been a customer longer than most here have been alive.
  • + 0
 @dubod22: Are you completely ignorant of world events? Oh wait, you said first-world. 'Cause all of our less fortunate neighbors don't count. Not being militarily overrun by that type of government is generally part of being "first world" so your argument isn't exactly fair, but whatever. Others have rampant war/military/government violence. We "first world" countries still have corruption and whatnot, you know.
  • + 1
 @mtbikeaddict:
i am curious.. Western europe would qualify as first world, right?
No one has assault style weapons there, for a fact barely any private person has guns.

when was the last time any western european country was overrun by its neighbours?
and please don't bring up hitler again... that's a totally different thing...
when was the last school shooting with multiple people dead in europe?

America anyway only has canada and mexico neighboring, both rather unlikely to invade. so what are you afraid of?
  • + 1
 @michibretz: 1. Define "western europe". 2. Are school shootings really the only killings that matter?. 3. I wasn't arguing about shootings, I was pointing out that governments are tending towards corruption/more control. 4. Are you aware of recent politics? There's still plenty to be scared of, even in America, even if we're not talking politics. Speaking of which, isn't this a bike site? Razz
  • + 2
 @mtbikeaddict: the comment section is "hors catégorie". E-pbiking.
  • + 1
 @BenPea: Awesome. Just awesome. True dat.
  • + 1
 It is just a debate,,, in the Pinkest of styles of course.
  • + 1
 Does anyone know what the record amount of posts is on a topic here? Easily going over 2000 on this one, might break the record.
  • + 2
 @fecalmaster: Not even close Smile Eliot Jackson (of Giant/ Pivot/ slippers fame) did excellent exploratory analysis on the PB data:
www.eliotjackson.com/2017/11/21/pinkbike-exploration
  • + 1
 @Deuce-DeuceAndAHalf: Wow that actually really interesting. I would definitely take a dartmoor over a savage riffle any day. 6200 comments,, this one a bit off.
  • + 1
 Just throwing this out there... anyone heard of the serial bomber on the rampage in Austin recently?
  • + 1
 @mtbikeaddict: And the robot cars killing people in Arizona. They're coming for us.
  • + 1
 @mtbikeaddict: And I don't want to alarm you unduly, but that automobile was Swedish. Just saying.
  • + 1
 @BenPea: ...And your point is?
  • + 1
 @BenPea: And I don't want to alarm you unduly, but that automobile had a driver at the time of the accident, and the woman was jaywalking.
  • + 2
 @mtbikeaddict: What, I can't just say stuff? We ne