There's plenty of buzz surrounding Shimano's upcoming XTR 12-speed group, but most of that speculation is based on the photos and information that were released back in late May, rather than real-world experience with the new parts. (If you missed it, RC covered all the details in his
First Look article). Even now, there still aren't that many groups out in the wild, and it's looking like it'll be late fall before there's any sort of widespread availability.
Despite the production delay, Shimano was able to build up a fleet of bikes with the initial run of parts, and invited a group of journalists to Crested Butte, Colorado, to try out the new components for themselves. Crested Butte may be short on oxygen (most trails begin around 9,000 feet above sea level) but the trails are incredibly scenic, with fast, flowing singletrack that winds through aspens and across open meadows. I was able to get in four days of riding, which was enough time to start forming some early impressions of this exciting new component group.
You Can Change Gears Whenever You Want
When Nick Murdick, Shimano's North American Product Manager, was giving the brief rundown on the new drivetrain, there was one point that caught my attention – the Hyperglide+ cassette is designed to shift well under load. Theoretically, the shaping of the teeth on the cassette and the chain design should make it possible to crank up a steep climb and shift whichever way you want without needing to soft pedal, and without causing horrendous metallic noises to come from the derailleur and cassette.
To test that theory, I purposely shifted poorly, waiting until I was in the middle of a climb to shift the cassette into an easier gear. The result? Quick, smooth, and precise shifting every single time, and it never felt like I was doing any damage to the drivetrain.
The shift up into that 51-tooth cog from the 45-tooth cog felt just as smooth as all the other jumps on the cassette. I was aboard an Ibis Ripmo, and the chain stayed securely in place even when I backpedaled more than I ever typically would. Shimano has a well-deserved reputation for paying attention to the steps between gears (although their 11-46 M8000 cassette might not fall into that category), and the new XTR cassette is a prime example. The tooth count difference between the cogs makes a lot of sense, with the bigger jumps positioned closer to the middle of the cassette, rather than having one monster shift into the easiest gear.
Shifter and Dropper Lever ErgonomicsEach click of the shifter is positive and well defined, and it takes less force on the lever to shift up into an easier gear than before. I'd say that SRAM's Eagle X01 shifter has a lighter action, but the XTR shifter has a more solid, distinct click when pushed. You can still shift down two cogs on the cassette with one push, but the second click is more noticeable than before, which makes it easier to avoid inadvertent shifts.
A new dropper post lever may not be as exciting as a 12-speed drivetrain, but the SL-MT800 lever has a nice feel, with a lever shape that mimics that of the XTR shifter. It was mounted up to a Fox Transfer post, a pairing that worked very well – even if none of the other new products described here pique your interest, this could be an upgrade worth considering.
The lever has been designed to provide better modulation, while the four piston caliper provides more power.
Saint Power With More ModulationAll of my ride time was spent on the four-piston XTR caliper, although there is a two piston version for cross-country riders who don't need massive stopping power and want to save some weight. The increased amount of modulation was immediately noticeable; there's not as much of an on / off feeling, and it's much easier to feather the brakes, which can come in handy in loose, slippery terrain.
The lever feel remained consistent over the course of the four days of riding I got in, but keep in mind that that the trails didn't have that many sustained super-steep sections – I'd need more time and a wider variety of conditions to make any sort of call as to whether or not the changing feel at the lever that was present in previous versions has been fixed. As far as power goes, I never felt undergunned, even in some of the steeper rock garden sections found in Crested Butte's Evolution Bike Park, but it'll still take more testing to really see how they stack up.
The only thing that's still missing is some sort of pad contact point adjust – I'm pretty picky about where my brakes start to grab, and even with the updated amount of free-stroke on the XTR levers I still found myself wishing they engaged just a little bit quicker.
The Sound of ScylenceThe vast majority of freehub designs currently on the market make some kind of noise when freewheeling, ranging from a quiet 'click, click, click', to what sounds like a swarm of angry bees. Shimano's new Scylence freehub sounds like... nothing.
That's right, the rear wheel is completely silent when you coast, and it might just be my favorite feature of the new gruppo. It's amazing what happens when those clicking sounds are eliminated – it was almost disconcerting at first to not have an audible speed indicator, but within seconds I was reveling in the silence. The lack of noise makes it easier to hear the sound of your tires grabbing at the ground, your brake pads contacting the rotors, and the rest of the world around you.
Sure, there's no longer an early warning system to alert hikers of your presence, but that's what a bell is for. I'd rather have the option to be noisy instead of being forced to make a racket all the time. And if you really miss the sound of a loud hub, a baseball card and a paperclip is all it takes.
| Drivetrains, hubs, and brakes all take much more than a few days to review – those are the types of components where long-term durability is of the utmost importance. Will those rubber pads on the shifters hold up? How will the hub's bearings fare after months of wet rides? Will the cassette and chain handle miles and miles of hard riding without wearing too quickly? I'm curious to find out, which is why we'll be getting a group in for testing as soon as possible in order to start a long-term review.— Mike Kazimer |
MENTIONS:
@shimano
Meanwhile the finish has gone down for both Shimano and Sram. Gone are the days of fkng solid make of X0 and pre 970 XTR. XT looks like first SLX, and when I saw the orange plastic engagement lever for the clutch, I thought that somethign is seriously wrong here. pay premium for that, come on... Same with SRAMs 12sp rear mechs, ugh... dressing plastic up with gold elements, give me a break. Look at 2009 X0 and XX, that's fkng quality. Pure quality.
I find it hard to trust a company that advertises so much. Good products sell themselves.
They're amazing.
Stop assuming you know more than me buddy. If you wanna chat about geometry there’s a thread for that somewhere in the GG below thresholds
However let's face it, the system requires a lot of extra care compared to indus. cartridge bearings due to its high exposure to water and contamination.
I know that people who were not especially aware of that burned a few XTR hubs...
You need to service (repack with fresh grease) those hubs way more often than standard hubs. If you ride in UK style conditions this can be quite a PITA.
When cartridge bearings are toasted, you change them and you're good; when cups gets corroded or damaged due to poor service, your hub is basically done.
Now if only the cups could be changed that would be another story...
See, we agree!
I'm genuinely interested, I mean are you sure Shimano really sells the cups as aftermarket items? To my knowledge it is not possible to change the cups inside the hubs (as with campy hubs for ex.) so are you sure they are removable?
I find it quite baffling that high end parts like are not backed up with aftermarket stocks of such basic and essential spare parts...
I agree completely the cups ought to be available but like many other parts of the bike if you look after em I don’t think the cups are likely to die before your rim/ wheel is ready for the bin. But maybe I’ve just been lucky? I’m sure there are some with bad experiences too (looking at you Waki).
Heck even fork stanchions and steerers can be changed (companies like ND Tuned can do that) so these cups are probably removable. The issue is to get new ones...
Now Thom I fully agree with you, any part that is properly maintained can last for years especially with XTR build quality. It is just that the cup /cones system has much smaller service intervals in wet conditions than cartridge bearing style hubs.
Yes, you are correct, the beads diameter in Shimano hubs is significantly bigger than in most if not all cartridge bearings.
A once a year service only O_o ??? I'm truly impressed.
We have a bunch of customers who are able to kill them (bike wash) in less than that. I guess you are using a very good and tenacious grease.
@IllestT : apparently ThomDawson managed to do so... I can't remember if there is a ridge to push them out once they are pressed in though. If you are right, then indeed it must be a real hassle to take them out, presumably with a bearing exctrator + slide hammer...
Started to make slight noise at ~300km, started to make a weird grinding noise at 500km, at 1000k km there is so much movement in the hub that it's causing the brake disc to rub the calipers.
Off to the shop tomorrow - put on my immortal Hope hub based wheelset to get there...
other than that - shimano over this side
Fast forward to now and I will go out of my way to spec Shimano hubs on my road bike. Plus they are f*cking quiet! Another thing one appreciates more, I believe, as they get older is silence. Or I should say, less noise. But they last forever and once properly lubed and set up need next to zero attention even riding year after year in the Vancouver rain.
Mountain bike hubs? I'm not as big a fan due to free hub issues. I'm sure Shimano has long since ironed out the issues but those first years of 12mm axle rear freehubs were junk.
If cup and cone hubs are better, then Chris King hubs must be shit i guess, oh and every other quality hub manufacturer.
f*cking moronic...
Cup and cone hubs are better in so many ways all you have to do is undo two bolts every 6 months to replace some very cheap ball bearings. They roll faster, don’t bind on side loads it’s just shimano’s freehubs can’t be trusted not to slip when you’re about to crank of a drop.
look at an actual test
www.fanatikbike.com/blogs/engage/onyx-racing-products-mtb-hub-review
half way down the page theres a chart the chart shows onyx and dt are head and shoulders lower drag than the rest
this shimano mechanism should provide similar or better than onyx, it FULLY RETRACTS the ratchet.
But I could definitely be incorrect about DT having more drag than Hope - but again, lube makes a difference in the star ratched, of that I am sure. So does tooth count - 54t has more drag than 18t, or so many perceive, including myself. 54t and old dry lube will definitely slow down a DT hub. Having a light fresh lube helps, a lot, I think.
The Shimanos seem like a great concept - no pawl or clutch induced friction should mean they will spin for days as Shimanos xtr level bearings have always spun well.
While we’re on he topic, one of the lowest drag hubs is the new zipp axial clutch system. We’ve had a couple out under customer bikes now, very similar to a dt but uses magnets to help keep the ratchets slightly apart. They’re also low drag at the expense of good sealing...the seal between the freehub and hub body leaves a lot to be desired, even for a road hub. Lots of grit can work it’s way in, not the end of the world as there’s lots of room for dirt and contaminates to get pushed out of the drive mechanism itself, but requires a fair bit of maintenance under riders that rack up the miles.
Either way, I think real application there isn't a lot of difference. I have sets of DT 240 with 54t ratchet, Onyx, Hope, Shimano XTR m9000, and Factor hubs all in use in our household currently and I really can't tell the difference in drag on trail - only in the bike stand.
I'll take well sealed any day over drag free!
How's that shifting when ever you want working out? Have they actually improved the ramps/gates, or whatever they're called, on the cassette?
How long before we see Xt & lower getting the new treatment? I'd be happy with an Xt 10spd wide range, not asking for much am I?
@megatryn : Sounds painful. Apparently the cassette is a tad too large for you. I recommend you check out the more compact version too.
But yeah, just use whatever works for you. I actually enjoy this process and don't like to throw away a complete cartridge bearing. I do understand it people just don't like the hassle and instead pop in new bearings and the hubs feel fresh again. As it is, I'm actually currently riding with cartridge bearings. I needed new wheels for my new bike anyway and came across a good deal for a wheelset that seemed pretty much perfect. Syntace W35, Procore compatible (so I'm running the tube at 6 bar without worrying that it will rip the rim apart, and an extra hole for a regular tube if I don't like or can't find the typical Procore tube with the silly valve) and they have a spare freehub body with steel ridges if the cassette eats the current one. Original plan was to build something with Shimano hubs though. Now I'm only going to do that if I can also find a new Shimano compatible replacement freehub for the Syntace hub so that I can actually swap back and forth between those wheels. Won't be soon either way. Oh, all these changing standards again!
A long while ago I crashed because I got hit by a car while I was at speed, about the left end of the front axle. I had a bent 180mm brake rotor and a broken axle of the Deore hub. So he had to pay me for a new brake rotor and a new axle (which came with new cones). Ever since, I kept breaking axles in that hub. After a couple of axles, I realized the hub shell may have been bent too which caused the axle to fatigue over time. I replaced the hub with a new Shimano hub and have been fine since. So it could be that you may have some alignment issues in your frames or fork, causing stuff to break? It is a mystery to me. You and people you ride with break them, many others don't. Either way, I hope you agree that those who don't have problems with them (and are fine with the service routine) have every reason to be happy with the Shimano hubs as they are.
@freeridejerk888 : That wasn't nice.
@mikekazimer you meant to say hockey card, right?!
People not familiar with adjusting cups and cones: "Fu$% this $hit! Shimano is crap, hubs destroyed themselves! Yadda yadda"
I was a little leary, but just rode through one of the wetter winters here in Vancouver, and my Deore 12x142 hubs are spotless.
As mentioned, Shimano is usually pretty good with gear ratios, so why the MASSIVE jump on the M7000 and M8000 cassettes between the 37 and 46t. WHY! TELL ME WHY!
Hopefully this is the comeback of Shimano after some spotty years with regards to reliability and product quality. And that migrating brake engagement point thing....
The levers on the previous generation are shockingly unreliable for the price. The only consistent thing about them is the ever changing biting point as air makes it's way in through the lever (You can physically see this after a few months of usage when you bleed them yet again), and shifts around the system - If you're really lucky you can get one ride from a bleed or new set before the issues start again.
Yes, they have a 3 year warranty, but that's because you bloody need it! After 3 sets on warranty, I have lost hope... At least they looks cool though?!
If you are willing to put up with them for long enough, you will literally see fluid / air leaking from the lever.
I have had saints, XTs and the previous generation XTRs with minimal issues (Though I know many others who have had the same issues on them), it seems to be related to the design / materials of the current generation XTR levers specifically.
Just that things are “better”.
I’m sorry, but I just can’t see dropping real money on these until I’m confident they have fixed the problem. No more “stealth recalls”, no more telling me to bleed them once a week. I’m skeptical.
And yes they do, call and ask
Sorry hope but I can't stand the racket anymore. If I have to grease bearings instead of free hub pawls all the time it's no difference maintenence wise and cup and cone have less drag.
Na had a spin before on them still annoying. Admittedly I'm overly sensative about most/all noise. I'm all about the peace and quiet or I get head aches. Bar the odd bout of ac/dc and
sweet engine noise blasts.
It’s mystifying to me how Shimano gets some details so right (the rubber shift pads) and others totally wrong.
IF I just need a new freehub body on my DT350 hubs I might consider it if the long term reviews are good.
On the other hand reliable, powerful brakes are high on my list of wants. I can't get a good bleed on my Magura's so I have to pay someone else to do it. Will these brakes be the shit? Maybe we'll know by next spring.
Anyone have any ideas why I haven’t been seeing them on the test and pro bikes?
I miss the old XTR caliper that was one-piece, and didn't rely on flexy bolts and rubber to hold it together. That's why I switched over to Hope. That, and I roach mineral oil so fast it's not practical for a 235# rider. The day will never come when I can buy a sexy XTR lever, with a 4-piston mono-block caliper, DOT5.1, with a 6-bolt, 220+ rotor...
PB's long(er) term 'review' on the new XTR d-train is gonna (just like every other 'review') be full of flowery adjectives that are intended to make you wanna go out and buy the whole sha-bang including the requisite rear hub(which Kazimer being aware of, has already started glorifying) purchase.
Bonus prediction: The same day said "review" pops up, there will be an XTR banner ad at the top of the PB home page
I am completely sold to the silent hub. My opinion: The louder, the more friction. Do we need that?
However let's be honest: pad contact adjustment and hubs are not so much in their bag of tricks.
*puts on flame coat*
I'll stick to the gorgeous sound of a Hope pro or Mavic ITS-4 thanks
Coming out soon: shimano XTR wheel reflectors and dork rings!!!
The bell can be annoying to have going, but being heard is important. In my experience, hubs have done a sub par job of alerting other trail users while the bell works incredibly well.
Plus, I love me a quiet ride so quiet hubs and turning off the bell are the best, which is most of my rides.
To contradict myself I wouldn’t be above using a small cow bell or the bell you mention.
All that being said nothing stops the glares or negative comments no matter how nice I am so in certain places I do indeed just fly by people. If you see me coming from more than a hundred yards you’re best bet is moving.
The Timber bell seems like something you should try, it helped me enjoy the downs more at certain trail systems that are general laden with people. They just hear the thing coming and hell, now I more often than not get nice comments or folks giving thanks for the bell. It has made the experience of ripping down a multi-use trail far more enjoyable because it has taken the stress out of it.
Good luck spending your quid to enduro with the XTR, unless you are a dentist.
Oh no wait, it has Hyperglide+! Just as my 8sp 1990 12-21 road cassette!
I wait in vain hope of a gearbox drivetrain with the properties that you mentioned, but alas, it's never to be.
You know the saying "talent follows money?" Well, there's a lot more money in the automotive industry than there is in the bike industry. Not to say there's not talented engineers working on bikes, but Honda's R&D department is probably bigger than the entire bike market as a whole.
If some miracle gearbox comes around that is light, efficient, and easily serviceable, it sure as hell isn't going to appear on a bicycle before it's on a car, truck, or moto. So no, the knowledge isn't out there, perhaps because it isn't realistically possible with the current state of materials science, and you'll know because your car has it first.
The frame has to be built around it.
You are saying they could just make frames with one gearbox standard and then everyone would use that. Even if you ignore the fact that there are around 5 gearbox manufacturers right now and 6 gearbox mounting standards (pinion has two) the bicycle industry can't even standardise bottom brackets which are incredibly simple by comparison. This is why: xkcd.com/927