Last year's
launch of a revised aluminum version of Giant's venerable Glory DH bike, complete with 27.5” wheels, a longer front center, and a longer stroke rear shock, immediately led to questions about the possibility of a carbon fiber option. Those questions have been answered in the form of the Advanced Glory 27.5 0 and the Advanced Glory 27.5 1, two new models to Giant's DH lineup, both featuring carbon fiber front triangles and aluminum rear ends. With a claimed weight of 3008 grames for the frame without a shock, Giant says this is the lightest downhill bike they've ever produced, coming in at 245 grams lighter than the full aluminum version.
The bikes share the same geometry as their aluminum counterparts, with a 63° head angle and 439mm chainstays. The 8" (203mm) of rear travel is achieved via Giant's Maestro dual link suspension layout, which uses a rocker link mounted on the seat tube and another link that curves over the bottom bracket to join the rear swingarm to the front triangle. Cartridge bearings are used in the linkage in an effort to increase the rear end sensitivity by reducing the amount of force needed to activate the shock. Like the aluminum version, the Advanced Glory has integrated fork bump stops, and has the brake and derailleur housing routed externally along the top of the downtube.
The Advanced Glory 27.5 0 comes spec'd with a race-ready parts kit, including SRAM's new X01 DH 7-speed drivetrain, a RockShox Boxxer Team fork, Vivid R2C rear shock, and a set of DT Swiss EX 471 rims laced to DT's 240 hubs. MSRP is $8,500 USD.
At $5,355, the Advanced Glory 27.5 1 is competitively priced, with a RockShow Boxxer RC, a Vivid Coil R2C, and SRAM Guide brakes to keep everything under control, while Schwalbe's Magic Mary tires should provide plenty of traction for the most technical tracks around.
Geometrywww.giant-bicycles.com
I know if I was dropping $8500 on a new bike, I would want a boxxer WC on it.
@digr. Nice tip there.
@Dan255. Yeah, higher profit margin on high end forks. That's how they pay for the marketing, ha.
They like to do this to us, it is a torture
velonews.competitor.com/2015/02/news/sram-recalls-zipp-88-hubs_360785
Santa cruz do a simlar thing with the v10 carbon and the v10 carbon c
In a general sense, how about we lay off what other people decide to spend their money on? I'm sure PLENTY of carbon owners ride more than twice a week FYI. It's their hard earned money, and no other man (or women, except wife and such...) should be commenting on ones money and how they spend it.
If you are really precise in handling your bike, ride so relaxed through roughest bits that bike dances under you and then you can use the advanteg of acceleration of light yet durable wheels, by pedalling out of stuff, pumping the last sht of every berm or backside, then for such case my argument is truly invalid.
I thought the whole point of carbon was that the stiff.ess profile is different to aluminium. Small chatter is absorbed but bigger loads result in a stiffer response. Is that not so?
So the benefits of a carbon frame are that it is lighter (not by much) and stiffer. But stiffer for how long. I always make a carbon frame analogy to a carbon hockey stick. Carbon hockey sticks are great when they are brand new. And if you keep using it and it does not break, you will still eventually have to replace it because it flexes too much. So why would this not happen to a carbon bike frame people? Honest question.
Meanwhile back at the ranch: I will keep buying top end bikes, and I will only stop complaining if I feel my money went to a worthwhile place and the bike is truly better than it's aluminum counterpart.
www.pinkbike.com/video/243228
Fwiw, I ride a 07 aluminum iron horse and a aluminum dw dhr ;D
The cheaper alternative is to buy a Boxer Team and a solo air cartridge. By doing such, you save yourself a net $250 over buying a the "real" WC....
Think of all the Chinese people scratching them self's stupid from working with it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Remidnds me of poison oak/ ivy when you get it on your skin
In general nice looking bike with non awesome bar diametr; )
carbon fibre is a composite material
the carbon fibre refers to the filament in the cloth weave, the resin combined with the filament creates what is a composite material
@AverageAdventurer
Giant only build carbon fibre for 4 "brands" - their own Giant and Liv brands, Canyon and some Colnago. They don't have enough capacity in their C-Tech plant to build carbon fibre for anyone else
The only Trek built by Giant are aluminium alloy, along with many other brands aluminium alloy frames.
Think about it, people are prepared to pay more for a lighter bike. Therefore they are happy to pay a premium for a carbon frame, along with the extra costs of building them and materials, to be able to own one.
In theory, a carbon frame should not cost that much more than an aluminium one, not at all, but it takes more time and is, as I believe, more prone to failure as it is more complex to assemble. If they concentrate on carbon only, then their expertise will be on a different level and costs would come down, but until then, if you want to pay for a good, sturdy carbon frame, with real RnD behind it, you will have to pay a substantial amount of do-re-mi.
P.S. Don't get fooled by the cheap carbon bikes who give the real ones a bad name, it is stronger than aluminium and will take a hit with no fuss, just look for the Santa Cruz video and enjoy!
Thing is, how much do the lower end mx/enduro bikes that yamaha do sell large quantities cost? £4k
And how much do the low end commuters Giant sell large quantities of cost? £400
read my post in the section above this.
Carbon fibre production is more expensive, including the materials, tooling and labour. Don't for a minute think carbon filament or pre-impreg cloth and resins are cheaper than aluminium alloys.
Hydroforming itself does not involve any molten metal.
The tubing is drawn from billet through an extrusion tool, and then placed into a hydroforming machine which injects hot oil at very high pressure, which forces the tube to take the shape of the hydroforming tool inside the tube, without causing fractures or creating stress risers.
There are no robots involved in welding bicycle frames, its all done by hand by skilled welders.
Likewise with carbon fibre, "machines" are not involved, the layup is done by hand, piece by piece, it takes a long time.
Well, I bought 2 square meters for 50 Euro and resins cost me 17, so it wasn't that expensive. You can also buy blue or red carbon fibre or even carbotanium for not that much. OK, aluminium tubing wouldn't cost as much, but the technology put behind it also makes it expensive, that and company branding. I myself may try and make a carbon frame and I bet it wouldn't turn out as good from the first try but I have 2000$ worth of materials I guess I can at least make 1 decent one.
A tinfoil hat might block out the electro-magnetic waves, but a carbon fibre one is probably lighter and stronger.
Tooling for carbon fibre is very expensive, perhaps $150,000 per mould / per size, all in.
Raw material (Toray filament manufactured into cloth, in house, and Giant's proprietary resin) is very expensive
Labour cost (time) is very expensive - can be 30 hands on one frame going through the process
Substantially more expensive than aluminium alloy production.
The biggest problem Giant have is the capacity of their carbon fibre production, as its so time consuming to produce. The only carbon fibre coming out of their C-Tech plant is Giant, Canyon and some Colnago.
They produce huge amounts of aluminium alloy framesets for other brands including Trek, etc. because they can extrude more tubing, and install more welding stations.
Not so easy to "ramp up" production of carbon fibre due to time to process each unit, and limited numbers of tooling sets for each frame.
I've spoke in depth to global product managers and engineers from Giant about this topic.
Giant are very different to other "brands" in that primarily they are a manufacturer first, a "brand" second. As you probably know, most "brands" are design/marketing companies who outsource their production to Taiwanese and Chinese based sub contractors. Some like Trek, still retain a small domestic manufacturing facility for their high end / custom production.
Giant are also unique in owning their own aluminium smelting plant, extrusion plant, hydroforming plant and carbon fibre cloth manufacturing plant.
All other brands (excluding BMC with their swiss 'stargate' Impec vanity tool) buy in pre-impreg cloth from other suppliers.
Giant actually supply their nearest rival Merida with all the aluminium alloy tubing that Merida uses!
Giant buy raw filament from Torayca (Toray) in Japan, and make their own cloth, to give them complete control over the quality of the cloth. They also produce their own resins in house, blended from chemicals bought from industrial suppliers.
Because they have full control of billet to frame (aluminium), or filament to frame (carbon), they can see all the costs, that are often more obscured for brands having sub contractors producing their units, as the sub contractors price in profits on costs.
They said all things included, its about 3-4 times more expensive to produce carbon fibre than aluminium alloy. And the cost of the higher spec Toray filament and CNT resin used in their "SL" carbon frames has a material cost 5 times higher than the T700 and resin used in their advanced composite frames.
You need a tool for each frame size. If you want to make more than a frame per day (typically 10 hours time for setup of tool, material layup and cure) you need multiple tools for each size. The tools need to be cleaned between setups, and also repaired from time to time as they are abraded during regular use. Because tolerances are tight on carbon manufacturing, tools are eventually retired.
$150,000 for a set of tools to make 1 frame in 1 size is not uncommon. think about offering 4 or 5 sizes in 1 frame design. Then think how many tools you need for each size to offer any volume of production. Do the maths, its not cheap, if you think its a rip off then just don't buy it.
Giant make a very good carbon fibre road bike for £1299, price is very reasonable
Be interested in knowing your experience of the bike industry, since you seem so sure we are being ripped off?
I've worked in it for years and used to own a bike company with an aluminium alloy factory in Australia, have met dozens of engineers / designers from bike companies and used to work for a company sourcing OE product from Taiwan.
I've also worked with composites, i know how much things 'cost' from a point of manufacturing, materials bill and TCO to market.
Your comments are hilarious.
I've tried to be polite, but its very obvious you don't really know what you are talking about, and resort to making ignorant replies rather than offering any factual evidence, so I will leave it at that.
GIANT >>> Mondraker
The Session is a Kona, for since like way back when forever. Session 77/Stinky/Stab and now Session 88/Operator.
The Glory is a beast at pedalling and works like a charm all day long (y)
The Session 77 is the same as the Stinky though. The Operator is basically the same layout still, just prettier elements
And still, no the Glory is not a Kona, it has a stiff butt
And no its not