First Look: Ibis' Updated Mojo HD5 Has a Different Approach to Suspension

 Pinkbike is just another advertising platform, so what do you expect

 it's PB textbook page 1

 Kudos to @dirtpaw for his foresight and prediction

 Lol this is true. Funny how you can see it coming now. "Spotted in the wild...whoa what is this?? Who knows..."

 Yes. Bike brands have their athletes ride unreleased bikes at international events in hopes that media will spot them in the lead up to a launch. It's 100% part of their marketing plan, but it's absolutely not in some sort of conspiracy with us. Ibis didn't pay for getting spotted, or call us up to say "our bike is here, please leak it."

When we go to a launch for a new bike, an editor (in this case Kaz) gets all the info, but isn't allowed to share it with the rest of the team. Then if we see new things at races, another staff member (in this case James) will write something up. That way we respect the brand's embargo and don't make things harder for other media trying to do the same... but we also do our job of showing you guys new stuff from races.

 @dirtpaw "expect a full long term review tomorrow"

 @brianpark: But you guys were also pretending not to know if this would go into production. It's clearly coordinated. It's not a coincidence that the "spotted in the wild, new model???" article came out the day before the press release.

 @brianpark: Don't pay no mind to the haters! Some people just like to complain. Pinkbike is the best MTB website out there, IMO.

 @brianpark: You are actively responding to an internet conspiracy so, it must be true

 @jeremy3220: James had no prior knowledge of the bike, and spotted it overnight before our morning tech call (he's UK based). To cover the bases he said "There's also the chance that this is simply a test mule and it may never see production."

And as I said, for sure not a coincidence they rode it in public shortly before launch.

 @jeremy3220: I think you give PB more credit than they deserve for conspiracy and coordination between their editors/staff. As Brian says above, I think their model is more like a bunch of semi-freelance reporters, i.e. Kazimer went to the launch but didn't communicate that to the photogs responsible for "spotted in the wild."

 @brianpark: Yeah its all good. PB does awesome at this stuff and more bike stuff is more bike stuff. I like it at least. People kind of know the Bike Manuf marketing playbook a bit, but whatever it works!

 @Drew-O: conspirator sympathizer

 Foken oath !!
@mybaben:

 @mybaben: All in good fun! When I saw the release, I chuckled! Didn't mean anything negative by it.

 @brianpark: we get info on nice new bikes (thank you) so it doesnt really matter in the overall scheme of things but I think you're protesting a bit too much! No chance the EWS pix of a carbon frame was "maybe a mule" - see the pix PB provided of Trek's cobbled together AL frame mules in developing the Supercaliber for comparison... And while Kaz may not know exactly what James in the UK is doing the last sentence of this article says PB is "in the middle" of testing this bike in your annual field test! So you have the bike, sounds like you've had for a while, but no one knows anything. And the "accidental" picture on Saturday may or may not have been a genuine scoop. OK. LOL.

 @deadflat: Wasn't directing it at you. Yours was good natured. Some others were getting pretty negative...

 Wow you are passionate about a random mountain bike article! @tuumbaq:

 @ljohnst88: Right?! I mean at the end of the day, is it really that important?? I mean it's just fun reading about new rad bikes being released. Who cares about the background shit?

 who hurt you?

 @tuumbaq: sounds like someone needs to get offline and go for a thing, called a bike ride!

 Man I'm soooooo pissed that every company doesn't tell me personally what they have in the works! Why can't they just send me updates to what they plan on releasing in the future so that I can be on the inside? What a tough life having to wait for bike companies to make official releases of new products!

I'm so angry that this is how a bike release happens!

 @GPP2117: LMAO!!!

 It‘s a good thing actually, since nobody has to bother with the „spotted“ articles and their sometimes murky pictures anymore, as everybody knows by this stage that exactly 24 hours after „another editor“ somehow spots a new bike in the wild, the embargo period will end, and all the MTB sites that „spotted“ the bike the day before will then run the full press release with high res pictures.

 Caught it in his zipper I think @GPP2117:

 @brianpark: Pin this on the forum homepage, save you hours upon hours responding to uninformed conspiracy theorists.

 Liking the matte black and return to the outdated 27.5 sized wheel trend.

 @brianpark: "respect the brand's embargo"

happens all the time in the automotive world. idk why people care that a bicycle brand releases media coverage on a specific date.

 @brianpark: how come the new 2020 Norco Sight wasn't mentioned then? That was clear as anything being ridden by a top 5 female

 @brianpark: I BELIEVE YOU!

 @brianpark: If you say there is no conspiracy it just means you are a part of the conspiracy. The truth is out there! Naruto Run Pinkbike to free the aliens.

 Why does anyone even give a shit though? Info is drip-fed out, it get's put on a site. It is as old as the internet itself.

 @RFrogh: Better yet, can't they just send me a preproduction bike to test?
Surely that need to know how it will perform for the punter class.

 Pretty obvious that Mike Kazimer is the master puppeteer, and we all (PB commenters, Brian Park, Ibis Bicycles, EWS, Bex Baroana, Roxy Lo, SRAM bottom bracket engineers, and Mike Levy) are unwittingly doing his bidding.

 @brianpark: can you guys hurry up with the Fox 38 first ride please

 Exactly same shit happened with the new enduro release
And people still fall for all this mkt bullshit.

Pb editors pretending they’ve never seen the bike when it is “spotted” is just like pretending to your girlfriend that you didn’t stare at that shela’s cleavage down in the pub.

 In other news, the frame costs as much as a complete AL Ripmo.

 @bashhard: I don't imagine you're going to pay their wages to get all the other amazing content out to us. PB pumps out great content non-stop and provides jobs for fellow mountain bikers. I'm happy to play along.

 Frankly, I don’t care if it’s a conspiracy/ coordination between brands and Pinkbike, I’m sure it could easily be a coincidence based on Ibis’s planned release after the race. But, it’s still fun to watch Pinkbike trying to explain it’s not coordinated. It’s like when you find out the one thing that drives your good friends nuts, so you keep doing it to get the reaction.


Anyhow, it’s a damn nice looking bike.

 Just putting it out there, planned, coincidence, conspiracy, who give a shite. I love seeing stuff on new mountain bikes, sneak peaks, first looks, long terms, borrow it for a lap/run, lunch ride, chase down the team truck and look in the windows. It's ALL GOOD!

 @mh731: Yep.

 Never forget. www.churchoftherotatingmass.com/2014/12/02/are-we-not-journalists-part-2

 @brianpark: doesn't the above article say it's in the field test?

 @kabaroo: because is instantly devalues the stock and inventory that dealers have purchased and are holding. Auto world is a fairly different.

 was about to say just the same, who said "expect a full-review tomorrow"? haha

 @jclnv: 5 years on, nothing has changed and really unless there's something illegal happening and someone cares to persue it nothing will change.


Everyone just needs to keep in mind when considering buying something based on professional reviews the objectives of those reviewers are highly unlikely to align with your own.

 @acali: Think You will need to put a better proposal than that together, but OK hears a new bike let me trash it for you
Sure they have plenty of worker bees at the factory that can do that, so why would they give it to you?

 @FuzzyL: who the hell is voting you down for saying it so perfectly???

 @rcrocha: IS that the Illegal Aliens, or E.T. Funny how any mention of Conspiracy & aliens has nothing to do with any truth or that's what we are programmed to think?

 I want a diarrhea brown $8000 bike right now.

 @jorgeposada: I have no idea why bike manufacturers choose risky colours like browns, and greens- the comparison you made is almost always there.

It's hard for some products to correctly do earth tones. I like subdued colours like sand, smoke, moss, etc...but for cars and bikes, it is so easy for them to get it wrong.

 @Ian713: I remember this bike from a decade ago. I wanted it really bad, but not enough to sell the DH bike to get one. I was in college, so no money. It was the exception- well executed earth tones, at least for the time. Even the cable housing was cool.

files.bikeindex.org/uploads/Pu/82577/large_4648_1493328495031.jpeg

 @hamncheez: Okay that looks pretty cool, like a reptile or somethin

 Totally agree. Way too many haters. Instead of actively looking for things to complain about, just go for a ride!

 Exactly.

 I don't know if that analogy works... a trophy truck needs to have the tires on the ground in rough stuff because it relies on the engine to get forward momentum. If you go downhill you really shouldn't pedal in the rough stuff, your momentum is mostly from gravity... I think fast racers don't want to be sucked down into every hole but rather skip over the roughest stuff.

 It has been but then people complain about bobby pedaling or (my least favorite thing to hear) a dead feeling bike.

 @jzPV: That's not really the issue with the analogy. Every vehicle would benefit from wheels perfectly tracking the ground, under propulsion or not. But as usual, there are tradeoffs.

The trophy truck has a very large sprung/unsprung mass ratio. I've never looked into it, but I would assume they use minimal HSC (for ground tracking) and high LSC (big mass transfer under braking and steering).

If you'd use the same setting on your bike, it would feel awfully harsh. Essentially the same as going down in climb mode.

 @Loche: If every bump is fully absorbed by the suspension and there is no power transfer to the wheels you will eventually lose momentum, no matter how good your suspension is. The requirements are of course totally different in pedally sections, but that makes mtb suspension so much more difficult than motorsports...

 @jzPV: Yes you're right, you'll loose momentum if no power transfer because of losses. But it doesn't have to do with a perfectly tuned suspension.

Say your momentum is in X axis, the normal component (Y) of an opposing force from a bump basically doesn't affect your velocity. In a truck, the largest component of a (small to medium) bump is in this Y axis.
Not so much on a bike due to wheel path and obstacle sizes. The lost of momentum is due to the bump force X component. You'll always loose less momentum with a suspension than without, because opposing force (thus deceleration) is reduced through spring-damper system. Deceleration is Force/Mass, so if you can decelerate on a longer distance (suspension travel), force is reduced.

I make it sound very factual, but correct me if I'm wrong.

 @Loche: Yes, but there is a difference between not having suspension at all and using some compression adjustments. And using no compression usually means more comfort, but that's not the answer to going really fast... where that balance is is what everybody is searching for!

 @kcj801 Yeah I'm sooooo confused.
"the data gathered led to the HD5's light rebound and compression tune"
So is the implication universally we have all been riding with our suspension rebound and compression a few clicks too high!?

 @InsaNeil024: Well I'm thinking that it is part of a complete system. Meaning that it depends on the susp kinematics! I don't think the answer is for everyone to go out and make your susp super soft and mushy, on your current bike...

 @InsaNeil024: Yes. Not really an implication--that's what he's more or less explicitly saying.

 Watch the JKW video where the Ibis guy explains this new philosophy! The look on his face... and then proceeded to firm it up.

 I think the bike is sort of old geometry. Chainstay is simply very short and rear wheel will be moving only forward !!! That's why they actually needed very low compression damping, the wheel must not be slowed down due to compression damping but it must be let move very quickly, or it'll be quite harsh riding.

 @phile99: Ok. I'm shooting a message out to Steve Peat letting him know he was doing it wrong!

 Not everyone wants a 29"er....

 yes and some even have fun riding those bikes crazy LOL

 29" is just bent @blaklabl:

 Ibisitting here waiting to drop another turd.

 @crazy9: ibisitting here waiting on my legs to stop tingling!!!! aaaah....!

 What's so harsh about making joke on those used up marketing routines?

 It’s cuz they act like we’re morons. They should tell us what they really did, instead of some rehashed marketing mumbo-jumbo.

 From an engineering perspective, bushings (a subset of bearings, if we're being strict about it) are the better choice for high load/small angle of rotation situations. Bearings (ball bearings for most bike stuff) are better for high angular displacement (think spinning freely like wheels and bottom brackets instead of rotating just a bit). It makes some intuitive sense when you think about it. If you put a ball bearing in a near-static, high-load application, most of the force from the system will fall on one or two balls. The area of contact of those balls and their races is relatively small, meaning that the overall pressure is really, really high. It's hard to make materials that withstand repeated loading with high pressures like that. With a bushing, that same load can be distributed over the entire area of the sleeve, making the pressure much, much smaller than the comparable case with a ball bearing. Cars' suspension pivots use bushings for this reason. As long as the tolerances are reasonably tight such that dirt can't get between the sliding surfaces, they keep on slipping nicely for a long time.

Anecdotally, the bushings on my Ripmo have seen tons of moon dust over the year I've been riding it. So far, they haven't complained. Hopefully they'll stay nice and clean and continue to slide smoothly for a long time!

 @airdonut41: completely unrelated to this bike, at what degree of rotation do bearings make sense?

 @airdonut41: I'd prefer bushings. The smaller bearings in my HD3 seized about every 9 months. They rarely get through about an 1/8th of a rotation on the links. I anticipate several bearing swaps on my HD4 too. Good explanation.

 @airdonut41: Maybe 80% of ALL personal and light and heavier duty vehicles use McPherson strut at the front and its top strut mount uses axial ball bearing to provide as frictionless rotation while steering the wheel as possible. The only proper bushing is a lower-arm ball joint. All other pivots use "bushing" made of infused rubber or compressed oil cylinder because they greatly dampen vibrations and use of steel or plastic bushings would transmit all that vibrations into chassis.
I think the cars are not proper analogy.
.
I don't know of any modern motorcycle that would be using any sort of bushing at swingarm pivot either. Looking at BMW K1200R (duolever) I can see only bearings and ball joints.

 All I read is that Engineer @Airdonut41 said that "bushings are the better choice." I will now recklessly quote this forever.

 I’ll reiterate: BUSHINGS?!

 @fluider: i know on my honda dirtscooters they all had needle rollers, which act under the same principle as a bushing. however they have the real estate to use a wide bearing, where on a bike that is limited.

 @sevensixtwo: it's not so much a question of at what angle, but more of a question of what purpose the bearing serves. Things that need to move as smoothly as possible but don't take significant loads often use ball bearings. Things that take high loads but that only move a few degrees or tens of degrees will use bushings, but as far as I know, there aren't hard and fast rules about when to use which. A good example of a small-ish angle where you might use a ball bearing is a dropper lever. The angle the lever moves through is relatively small, and a bushing would probably be fine. But because the load is small, replacing that bushing with a ball bearing means that things will feel buttery smooth with very little stress on the balls/races (one of the reasons people like levers like the Wolftooth one so much). From an engineering perspective, suspension pivots are sort of on the borderline. If they can be designed in a way that loads are small, ball bearings will be super smooth and definitely last long enough. If not, bushings will be a much more durable solution (and can be just as slippery smooth if spec'd properly). @mobil1syn makes a good point that needle bearings can be an awesome thing to use for these circumstances.

@fluider: Good point re:bushings being used mainly for vibration damping rather than high load. And while that's certainly true, I still think bushings are a very good choice due to the small rotational angles involved. For steering, roller bearings definitely make sense because loads aren't that high (especially if you have a pin and two bearings to eliminate any off-angle torques).

Full disclosure: I am an engineer but by no means an expert in these things. I'm laughing and facepalming at @mtbikemccoy.

 All I know is that after riding my Ripley for six months there is no squeaking. Bushings seem to work on pivot points that don’t rotate very much.

 @airdonut41: Thank you for the explanation.

 LOL. Great analogy, with the BMX bike on the pegs! It makes total sense and is a good question. The answer is....$$$.

 It's because of short stays being a current trend and ibis choosing to market their bike based on consumer wants. I like this bike but without adjustable chainstay length and an alloy frame option id never consider one for myself.

 The companies doing different chainstay lengths are almost all Horst link setups. It’s a lot easier to just make a a few different straight stays then have a multiple molds for a while rear triangle assembly.

 @krisrayner: agree, and maybe it's because I don't design bikes, but can it really be that hard to put a chip in the rear to extend it by 10mm / 15mm?

Like I say, I feel they believe it's close enough and we'll wait until it costs them sales.

I certainly won't get an answer from them that suggests it's worth looking at.

 @krisrayner:
Norco does it by just moving the suspension pivots back on the front triangle. Same rear ends pieces on all sizes, but longer rear centers.

 @Chris97a: Pretty sure Norco do it by moving the BB forward on each frame size to maintain the kinematics.

 @panaphonic:
They move the entire rear suspension rearward. This maintains kinematics and uses all the same rear end parts.

 @Chris97a: maybe they do on the DH bike. But all the reviews of the trail bikes that I've seen state that they move the bb forward.

 @panaphonic: they do it on their trail bikes and I believe XC bikes too. Moreover they also have size specific tube gauges. Seems like they're giving it some proper thought.

 I wonder how many DW designs are out there still being used? Evil, Ibis, Pivot, ____,...?

 @mtbikemccoy: Giant, Trek...

 @mtbikemccoy: Atherton

 Devinci

 Salsa

 My thoughts exactly. Check my comment above.

 The data system let us advance in the direction we were already going by leaps and bounds. The "new" thing is how different it feels on the trail. Check Bike Mag for some actual first impressions on the new tune.

www.bikemag.com/gear/first-impressions-the-2020-ibis-mojo-hd5

 @ibiscycles: HEy IbisCycles, I think it's great to add data acquisition to improve the suspension tune. Is this why you decided to add a bearing to the superior link? Because some of us would love to see, at least the option, to get full bearing linkages on your new bikes. Performance is a priority over ease of maintenance.

 @ibiscycles: still not telling us anything...

 @ibiscycles: I found JKW’s video a little but critical of this new suspension tuning system. Seems like the computer would tell him to make changes that were counter intuitive, but more “ideal” settings for Jeff. After a few laps Jeff set his own suspension how he normally would, and he liked it better and somehow it was still “ideal” under the computer microscope. Not sure why drastic difference to rebound, and compression would still be under the same “ideal” running area?
www.trailforks.com/video/38118

 @ibiscycles: youtu.be/QkiK_n9NTcg

 If the a2c of the fork is the same, then the average change I've seen is ~0.7 degrees at approximately 1200mm wheelbase. I think my bike came out at 0.68 for a 1208 wheelbase. So of you ran a 150 29er fork thats roughly the change you'd see.

 maybe you could try a 150mm fork would be okay also combined with a 29er up front

 We don't recommend it. With a 150 29er fork/wheel, the HA goes from 64.2 to 62. It also jacks up the bottom bracket by 6-8mm. And yes, it would also slacken the STA by about 2 degrees.

 @ibiscycles: So when can we expect to see a 975 bike from you guys? I'm waiting impatiently.

 @scatterbrained: Real question - What do you want first, a 975 or more AF models?

 @ibiscycles: 975. I'm not your target market as far as aluminum frames are concerned. I love my carbon frames.

 @ibiscycles: more af!!!

 @ibiscycles: Mojo 4 first. Then go all AF on us.

 @ibiscycles: updated Mojo 4 AF Mullet - you can call it 'speed metal' or 'headbangers ball'

 @ibiscycles: 975 AF

 @ibiscycles: AF's (and some more T-Shirts ????)

 @ibiscycles: 975 200%

 @ibiscycles: I'm still looking for something that can knock the Scott Ransom off the top of my list for the next dream bike build.

As a 27.5 or 29 compatible bike, I want to run it 29 in front and use the flip chip to keep the geometry correct.

But I would prefer to have Ibis's DW platform. Why has Ibis avoided longer travel and flip chip?

DW is so efficient and intuitive, and seems to know exactly when it's climbing or descending.

So it seems there would be such a minimal penalty for running 165mm - 170mm. Does DW have too narrow a working (travel) range, where the kinematics get wonky past 155mm?

 @DirtGuru2: Pivot make a DW-equipped DH bike.

 @pmhobson: Yeah Bernard Kerr looked pretty good on that Phoenix winning Hardline!

 @ibiscycles: 27 front/26 rear AF.

 @ibiscycles: AF

 @Nizhoni: 975 AF Shelby Omni GLH-S

 @ibiscycles: Mojo HD5 AF. Pretty please. With sugar on top...

 @ibiscycles: 100% more AF!

 @ibiscycles - It's got to be more AF models for me...

The positive feedback towards Ibis on this website has been massive and there seems to be a decent gap in the market imo - most manufacturers seem so focused on 10k hyperbikes but the vast majority of sales are not those same bikes - normal people like to have nice things too! Simples!

 @ibiscycles: Are you sure about those angles? They seem off. Fox 36 170 27.5 has A/C measurement of 559. Fox 36 150 29 has A/C of 557. Sure the 29er wheel has about 20mm more radius, but it's not going to change HTA/STA by 2 degrees. Rule of thumb is usually about 0.4-0.5 degrees for 10mm longer fork, so I'd guess it would be somewhere around 63.5.

I've sketched up mullet configurations in CAD on a couple other bikes (Patrol & SB165), and neither had that drastic a change. Both slackened about 1 degree by swapping to a 29 fork and dropping fork travel by 10mm.

 @ibiscycles:Ripley AF !!!!!

 @andeh23: You're right. For my wheelbase CAD said the higher axle gives 0.68 degrees of SLACK with identical a2c (Fox 36 180mm 27.5 vs Ohlins RXF 36 160mm 29er). I measure 0.7 degrees. My BB measures +4mm.

 @DirtGuru2: get the ransom

 @ibiscycles: I think that the af models are wicked, however the "ibis brand" is that of high end boutique bikes and the carbon models fit that brand better

 @ibiscycles: AF(fordable) first then 975 and kids bikes...

 @ibiscycles: AF Models! Ripley AF!

 More AF!!? @ibiscycles:

 @ibiscycles: HD5 AF version for sure or at least Aluminum rear triangle.

 @ibiscycles: more aggressive 29ers, then AFs, then if you have to mullets. 29ers aren’t broken as far as I’m concerned.

 @Yetimike2019: Just curious: how much more aggressive would you make the Ripmo and Ripmo AF?

 Agreed. There is often a trade off between nimble and stable. I will sacrifice stable for a nimble bike! These days almost all bikes are good and stable. There isn't really any need to get crazy long, unless you race pro or semi-pro. I mean shit, my 2015 "used to be enduro" bike is only 1175mm and it's a large!! Any bike now is more stable than that.
LOL.

 Less compressions, more sag and travel... So makes sense they higher BB

 @PauRexs: it’s not that it is just they are really low with what you just said ,like 338mm /336/340 they are too low even with the 170 mm cranks ,that I think it’s a little short of a crank ,and then you have the bigger bike thing ,that is a great thing in some things but generally it isn’t in actual riding ,that bigger reach is at the cost of something like bb place ,and that I think affects that effect ,just look at Yolanda Neff pedaling position,and the .......,ok can’t handle any more writing

 Wut? The BB shell is threaded and it's in the front triangle. Back to Pinkbike comment school for you...

 @Otago: Im not 100% positive but I think he is suggesting using a BB instead of the bushing

 Bushings are good in this application.

 The 147mm 29er just not quite enough? :-)

 Ibis has had their Mojo for at least a decade, the Mojo HD from 2012 I think. And they have a 150/160 29er called the Ripmo.

 That's why you don't just change the seat tube angle in a vacuum, you also do other things like longer reach, slacker head angle, and longer chain stays. My Pole seat tube is also 76* and it rips the downs.

 I ride a Ripley, and other than on my Capra I don't need to slam the saddle all the way forward. (and even then the Ripley's seating position is better)

If you are not riding uphill most of the time, then we've got a fundamentally different understanding of MOUNTAIN biking?

 Then a Pivot is your bike, a company that still understands the value of pedaling.

 Ibis are known for comically low BBs so a higher BB is always welcome when it comes to them.

 @gus6464: Bollocks. I've owned multiple Ibis frames and none had what you descirbe

 You seem to be unaware that their DW-link suspensions have built-in anti-squat, hence not needing low-speed compression damping in the shock to negate pedal bob.

 @MtbSince84: I seem to be unable to detect sarcasm or lack of as well, I owned an HD3 and rode HD4, loved the efficiency, just looking to see how these changes may have impacted it. If they made it more progressive without impacting pedaling performance, seems like that would be highlighted here.

 @Caddz: No sarcasm intended.

You asserted that lowering the base level of compression damping on Ibis suspensions would affect the pedaling performance. I'm saying that their pedaling performance is fairly independent of the amount of compression damping, so there would be no reason to mention it, either by Ibis or by the reviewer.

Also, looking at the comment from Hans Heim, it seems that this new tuning approach affects high-speed damping primarily, so even to the small extent that low-speed damping affects pedaling efficiency on Ibis suspensions, this new approach would not affect it.

 "instead of just posting comments on the internet about how the HD3 is better than anything new and current"

You realize that's essentially what you're doing about the HD4, right?

 @MtbSince84: I neglected to add in the one detail that I sold my HD4 before the season was up. Decent enough bike, but looking back I can’t tell you anything memorable about it. Can’t hold a candle to the current crop of 29er Enduro bikes. Couldn’t shake the fear it was going to break as well.

 I have to agree. Between the browns, grays, and foam greens. It's like they're trying to see how ugly they can make a bike and still sell it.

 they work pretty well in the Knolly's I've had

 on the ripmo, it's actually the upper bearing'd link that creaks constantly, not the lower.

 LOL! We tested dozens of forks and shocks and couldn't achieve the wheel speeds in compression and rebound we were looking for. We worked extensively with our partners to shift the tuning ranges to meet the needs of both our Enduro World Series athletes and regular riders. So no, you can't achieve this by using a couple of clickers on a bike you already own. In fact, this suspension philosophy may not work on your bike. Most suspension platforms require compression damping to control pedal bob. With dw-link, we control it with suspension kinematics. Our bikes are so efficient, we can get away with low compression damping - something that can't be said for every platform.

 @ibiscycles: Having spent time on your suspension, there is some magic in Ibis's version of DWLink. Its no joke, you guys seem to nail the system for the most part.

 Ooooh, shirty. @ibiscycles:

 @ibiscycles: I do love how that DW link wizardry pedals.

 @gbeaks33: Look closer. Closer. See that part at the end? Yup, the Ripmo AF is already shipping with a custom tuned fork and shock from DVO.

 @ibiscycles: Man, somebody is feeling snarky this morning. You should try mountain biking to unwind a little.

 @loudv8noises: The actual speeds on our custom Fox and DVO part numbers are 40-70% faster than full open on the regularly available parts. If you want to try it, they can revalve for you when rebuilding.

Also, our custom higher speed tune is for the high speed circuits that open up when the speeds are higher or there are a lot of square edges. We actually recommend keeping a fair amount of low speed damping engaged in order to keep the bike calm. From reading many people's comments, I can see that there's a misunderstanding where they think we are advocating wide open on low speed damping which is not the case.

Another thing that might be helpful for people to know is that smoother tracks with big jumps probably benefit from more high speed damping which is still available on our tunes. You can dial it back in for that familiar feel and open it up for a plush feel on the rough stuff.

 @ckcbmrice: to be fair the guy they were responding to was being a dick.

 @sdurant12: Don't get me wrong, I loved it. It was snarky, but with style.

 @hans-heim: your comment on dialing things out for smooth jump tracks jogged my memory a bit. Why arent shocks coming with 4 settings in the lever like the Manitou McLeod?? My sons Clash has it and it's super useful unlike a pedal switch (which sucks if you forget it all the time). Its a set and forget "flow mode" for the shock and then a pedal and then a lockout. Fully open switch is for legit MTBing. Makes it so easy, he just flips it to jump track mode.

I wish my DPX2 had something like that for when we are riding skills tracks or just flow runs all day.

 @Svinyard: Off topic: I always read your user name as "sinyard". Imagine my cognitive dissonance over your exchange with Hans.

 @MtbSince84: username checks out for obscure knowledge on foundational mtb figures.

 @MtbSince84: lol had to Google sinyard. Thought maybe it was a Vegas Roadhouse.

 @Svinyard: wow really?? I always thought your username was also related to Mike Sinyard also.

 @sspiff: Hah. I actually bought a Stumpjumper in 1984. Which is weird, because I'm only 35. ;-)

 @hans-heim: up to 70% less damping than fully open on a stock factory 36?

Is this a joke?

Who out there above 150lbs is running fully open rebound/compression clickers on an enduro bike and wants it faster?

 @sspiff: and I always thought you were Spaceman Spiff

 @loudv8noises: pick a compression tune and be a dick about it.

 @loudv8noises: Love your photo. Anyone who can drop a knee on the ground on a street bike is cool. Our company, MI, developed the tech Ibis is using. Minnaar is partner in our company and that guy is 100x more of a naysayer than you. That guy can spot bullshit 10 miles away. All I can say is our data has been validated on many dynos for accuracy and repeatability. The folks who have used our kit to develop their bikes are stoked after our tune. In fact, it's their tune with their rider on their bike, we're just providing the data (Example: bikeco.com/suspension-testing-with-cody-kelley-and-motioniq). To answer your question, yes, tons of folks run HSC fully open on their fox 36 and they are >> 150#. In general, lighter riders are getting hosed and we have data to prove this. With modern designed air dampers (positive/negative air chamber, etc), you just can't start dropping air pressure to try to achieve a fuller range of motion (IE, more than 85% of your bike's travel). To boot, dropping air pressure then kills your rebound speed because you have reduced down force. So yes, for a majority of average riders, bikes are over damped. Question for you: If you're designing a bike, how would you develop your suspension to support a wide range of riders, a petite lady all the way to a rock smasher like Richie Rude? At some point, you look at your market and give them a tune that they will enjoy with enough headroom to support a spectrum rider (Any pro EWS/DH). Let them turn the knobs all the way to the right for a change. The key here is the tune has a range that will support their weight / style. The bike also can be balanced. Believe it or not, some bikes out there cannot be balanced from having the wrong tune on the either the fork, shock, kinematic curve, or any variation of all 3. Getting all components to work in concert is actually quite a difficult process. Putting dampers on a dyno does not simulate real riders riding real bikes, on trails. Ok, back to work for me. Shoot me a DM if you want to take the conversation offline.

 @RobMI: Thanks for the response. I understand the compression tune, it's rebound (which is specifically mentioned) that I don't understand. Compensating for less compression damping with a higher spring rate makes sense if you want an active bike; in fact it's how I run my bike personally. What I don't get is the opposite is true for rebound. Higher pressure (spring rate) is going to result if faster axle speeds given the same damping; going lighter on rebound damping just doesn't make any sense. And the levels mentioned here (40-70% less than fully open???)
Again, either FOX and every other manufacturer is wrong or IBIS/you guys are...I'm avoid talking the shock because the kinematics matter but in the fork this is just inconceivable to me. I've ridden my bike with my rebound fully open - its terrible - I can barely hold onto the bars my hands are so numb. 40-70% faster would just make it all worse - this still hasn't been explained.
Maybe I was too aggressive in my comments earlier, my BS meter went off and I kinda posted what I thought was a funny joke/comment. I'm not actually attacking your guys work; but the discrepancy between what was stated and what obviously works for the rest of the market is still there and I am interested to hear a response.

Thanks,

 @loudv8noises: Well you are in the camp I was in for years. I had limited time to ride either my MTB or motorcycle. I had an issue on my KTM where I'd hit some studder bumps and I could not figure out what was happening. Tried everything, clickers, oil viscosity, oil height, etc. Finally figured it out, but what I wanted to be doing was riding a bike on rails. The phenomena I was feeling was packing. Suspension compressed, didn't rebound fast enough, boom boom boom. Felt like crap. As an engineer, I wanted data to back up what was going on. Anyway, knowing what I know now after working on this thing for 3 years and testing with amazing riders way better than I'll ever be, we discovered a few things. First thing, everything is related to each other. You can't make isolated changes. Changing 1 clicker has an effect on another stroke altogether. Also, things get more complicated when you look at balance. Increasing rebound speed on rear, will put pressure on the front. Without data specific to your situation, I'm just spewing BS that should not be listened to, period. What *may* be happening in your situation could be related to the damper design or tune, too much pre-load, too many tokens, or packing. Packing happens when the rebound can't get back fast enough. We see this in the data with the average position being too deep. Opening up the rebound increases the average ride height because the wheel gets back to earth faster. The tuning process I use with our data starts with dynamic sag, can you get an even front and rear dynamic sag on difficult terrain. This will tell you a lot. Next, what's the fork rebound speed. For an enduro racer, >2000 mm/s. Even faster on gnarly rocky stuff. Next, what's the rear rebound compared to the front for every range of strokes? Is it slower or faster. 99/100 it's waaaay slower. So this can be sped up a bit. Next dial in front and rear compression. This is easier to achieve on a lot of bikes believe it or not. It's the thing that makes the bike feel stable in corners, etc. My point about rebound speed for lighter riders: If the fork's over damped on rebound, opening it all the way won't do anything. This is especially true if the rider can't compress the fork deep enough to generate enough spring to drive the fork back down. I'm not going to go on this site and bash any OEM for what they've designed. As far as I'm concerned, these things are engineering marvels. They are asked to create a product that will work for anyone. A high end bike has over 7 Billion suspension permutations (Fox 36, Grip2, FloatX2, both my weapons of choice and I know how they work, and I love them. Look closely though, there is a code on each one so they are not all tuned equally). Here's what I know based on tons of data, if you can feel it, it can be measured. Go to the CushCore website, I quantified the damping effect a Cushcore has on the ride. Had multiple riders do the same ride, same settings, same air pressure, but with CushCore, 15% of the compression strokes across all buckets just disappeared. Total ride vibration went down 12%. I've got the files, strava segments, and waveforms to prove it. If you listen to the experts, they will tell you to open up your rebound until you can't handle it, then back off. With Ibis, they studied the data, tested, repeated 100s of tests on many tunes. We gave them the tools they needed to analyze their bike. Not shaft speeds, but the bike, with leverage curve, geometry. With data, it's the analysis that matters. I could record my voice, it will show up on a graph in the time domain. By looking at the waveform, could you tell what I said? A: No... Telemetry is the waveform, Analysis is voice recognition. I'll end with this, without data, everything I say about your experience on your bike is BS. I may as well be a snakeoil salesman. I could try to speak confidently and you may think I know what I'm talking about. But armed with data to back up what's happening on the bike, well that's a completely different conversation. Rider feeling is still important, but correlating it to data is really cool. BTW, typically on every tune I've been a part of, we increased rebound speed on the fork 50-70%. Rear, up to 100% faster. On some bikes, I couldn't get rebound to go faster than 1200 mm/s and that is dog shit slow. That's not average speed, 95%tile, that the max our system saw. And that's where I throw my hands up and say, get it serviced, speed it up, or put on about 50 lbs and maybe we can make it work. Every situation is different. With billions of permutations on just suspension alone (holding air pressure constant) you could see how things might end up in a non-optimal state. Will be off the grid the next couple of days, but I'll try to check this thread over the weekend. Or just email me: rob@motioninstruments.com. Happy to talk suspension, data, anytime. Life is too short to ride an improperly tuned bike. Stoked to see Ibis launch this bike and allow us to work with them in the process.

 @RobMI: RESEARCH BREATHING HOLMES

 @owl-X: good advice????????

 @owl-X: guess Pinkbike doesn’t deal with imojii characters...

 that will be the HDfiveAF eddition