First Ride: SRAM's New Powertrain Motor
After two years of testing on the EWS-E and EDR-E circuits, SRAM's new e-bike motor is making its public debut. It's called the Powertrain, and it produces 90 Nm of torque with 680 W of peak power. There will be two battery size options – 630 Wh and 720 Wh, along with a 250 Wh range extending external battery.
Now, the launch of a motor is a little different than a drivetrain, brakes, or suspension, since it's not a part that can be attached to an existing bike. That means there's no price tag, and information about the bikes that will used the motor is still on the way - Nukeproof, Propain, GasGas, and Transition all have new models designed around the Powertrain.
Now, the launch of a motor is a little different than a drivetrain, brakes, or suspension, since it's not a part that can be attached to an existing bike. That means there's no price tag, and information about the bikes that will used the motor is still on the way - Nukeproof, Propain, GasGas, and Transition all have new models designed around the Powertrain.
Powertrain Details
• 90 Nm torque, 680 W peak power
• Uses AXS pod controller to switch between Rally or Range modes
• AutoShift + CoastShift options
• Drive unit weight: 2.9kg
• 630Wh & 720 Wh battery options
• www.sram.com
• 90 Nm torque, 680 W peak power
• Uses AXS pod controller to switch between Rally or Range modes
• AutoShift + CoastShift options
• Drive unit weight: 2.9kg
• 630Wh & 720 Wh battery options
• www.sram.com
In a slightly unexpected twist, the motor hardware is manufactured by Brose, and then SRAM handles the software. Specialized takes a similar tactic with their motors, which are also manufactured by Brose. WIth the Powertrain motor, SRAM's dealer network will handle any warranty issues, which means there's a very broad selection of shops that riders could go through if they encountered any issues.
The Basics
The Powertrain is designed to integrate with SRAM's existing AXS and Eagle Transmission components, one of the reasons the marketing materials around the system keep mentioning the word 'holistic.' Rather than being a standalone, independent component, the motor is designed to function with SRAM's existing drivetrain and dropper technologies. The approach makes sense from a business standpoint, since it allows SRAM to bundle various components into one package for a prospective bike company.
SRAM focused on making the Powertrain simple to use, one of the reasons there are only two motor modes, Rally and Range. As the names suggest, Rally puts out the most power, and Range is for maximizing battery life and traveling a little less quickly. The max power and assistance level for each mode can be customized in the AXS app, allowing riders to adjust the motor's behavior depending on their riding preferences.
The app can be used to customize the Range and Rally modes, or to fine-tune (or turn off) the Auto Shift mode.
The display shows the basics, but unfortunately the information displayed isn't customizable, at least not yet.
There's no standalone remote. Instead, the top button controls the motor modes, and the bottom button activates the dropper post.
There are 630 and 720 Wh battery options, with a 250 Wh external range extender battery on the way in November.
Switching between the two motor modes is done via the upper button on the left pod shifter, and the lower button is used to activate the Reverb AXS dropper post. I was surprised to learn there wasn't any way to turn the assistance completely off from the remote. That's something I regularly do when descending extra-technical sections of trail – I'd rather not have any more assistance than necessary in those low grip, heavy braking moments, and on most other eMTBs it's possible to switch the motor to the 'off' mode from a handlebar remote. With the Powertrain, it takes a press of the button on the top tube to switch the motor off, which isn't always that easy to do on the fly.
There's also a walk mode (SRAM calls it a Push mode) that's activated by holding down the top pod button and walking the bike forward; it'll provide support to get the bike up and over un-rideable sections until speeds exceed 6 km/h.
The fact that there's no dedicated, standalone remote does seem like an oversight to me. I understand SRAM's desire for full integration, but the fact that there's currently no 200mm Reverb AXS dropper post means riders who want a longer travel dropper will be forced into an awkward cockpit configuration, where two under-the-bar remotes will be fighting for space. I'm curious if any companies running the Powertrain motor will spec a dropper post other than the Reverb AXS; if not, there will be a lot of taller riders out there wishing they had a post with more than 170mm of drop.
Those AXS droppers have an external battery that'll need to be charged separately from the bike, but on a bike equipped with SRAM's Transmission derailleur it's hardwired to the bike's main battery. If the battery runs down to 0% charge the system will still provide enough power to keep the derailleur shifting for up to two hours. At that point you'd have a heavy, non-motorized bike to pedal home, but at least you'd be able to shift.
Display
The Powertrain display integrates neatly into the toptube, allowing the mode, remaining battery level, and whether or not auto shifting is enabled (yes, there's an auto shift mode - more on that in a bit) to be seen at a glance. At the moment, there's no way to customize the information shown on the display – what you see is what you get. That stands in contrast to Specialized's Mastermind TCU display, which has 120 possible configurations, with options to show speed, time, elevation, range, cadence, and more. I'd imagine SRAM will add more features as time goes on, but it does seem fairly basic compared to the offerings from Specialized and Bosch.
Auto Shift
Shimano debuted their latest e-bike auto shift system earlier this year, and now SRAM has developed their own system. This system keeps tabs on cadence, and automatically shifts to allow riders to keep spinning at the same RPM. There are seven differerent cadence settings that can be adjusted up or down by first holding the lower right shift button and then pushing the top or bottom button to adjust the pedaling speed the system will try to maintain.
Powertrain also has Coast Shifting, which, as the name implies, makes it possible to change gears while coasting and not pedaling. That can make it easier to set up for a technical climb, or to shift to a harder gear in order to accelerate out of a corner.
Miranda Miller on a bike that hasn't officially launched yet.
Initial Impressions
I've been able to spend time on three different bikes equipped with a Powertrain motor, and in all instances the motor has worked well, quietly putting out enough power to get up ridiculously steep climbs, and remaining impressively silent on the descents. There's no clacking when you stop pedalling, and zero rattling when bombing down rough sections of trail, a refreshing departure from the noisier options already on the market.
Riders who have spent time on a Specialized Turbo Levo will find the experience to be very similar, at least as far as power delivery goes. It's a very natural pedaling feel, one that doesn't require much adaptation compared to a non-motorized mountain bike. Compared to Shimano's EP8 motor, the Powertrain doesn't require as high of a cadence to get the most out of the motor. That slightly slower optimum pedaling speed is especially beneficial on steep climbs, where it makes it easier to maintain a consistent level of power without pedaling frantically.
Although the numbers on paper give the Powertrain a slight edge when compared to Bosch's Performance Line CX motor, on the trail the Bosch motor feels more powerful – it packs more of a punch than the Powertrain, and it feels like it's providing more support on extra-steep climbs.
As for the AutoShift function, it does work, although not well enough that I'd want to go on a ride and not have the option to manually shift. I can see it being an interesting feature to enable on rides that involve a more consistent climb, but on punchy sections of trail it can struggle - remember, it's not predictive, which means that it can take a bit for it to adapt to the cadence change brought on by a sudden climb, potentially causing the rider to pedal in a harder gear than they'd want until it finishes shifting.
It's still early in the test period for the Powertrain – I'll be putting a bunch more miles in on a bike equipped with this motor. Stay tuned for a follow-up review after I've gotten in enough muddy miles.
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It’s ridiculous what we have to put up with.
I think most of my mates, and myself once we saw pinon+motor decided to put all our ebike dreams on hold until they have a few more kms under them, and bike options. It's just the way to do it.
"CE and stuff" are local regulations that let businesses sell certain consumer products including ebikes to the consumers. EU has them, us has them, UK has them after Brexit too. We have to file a "declaration of conformity" (with the aforementioned regualtions) before we can even get an ebike through customs.
I had a Rail with the Bosch system and man that thing rattled like a paint can. Cool yours are all quiet.
Basically we've allowed electric motorcycles on trails.
Computer controlled gears, suspension, seatpost. Motor to pedal for you.
Why bother riding it.
Gives me some Motobecane/Bikes Direct vibes from a few years back personally.
nsmb.com/media/images/nsmb_2017_gearreview_360_marin_wolfridge-2485.original.jpg
www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jfBwGueBY8 "Ultimate Coastal _e-bike_ Ride" has a distinct "pressing the power button" shot, and I know I've seen the others already.
And they tried a pun/joke about them hitting up the "Supercharger" to recharge after the ride, except it's not a Tesla station, it's a corner store and they got snacks. Except they actually will need to plug in those bikes to recharge them... so it really is not a joke or is a terrible joke, your pick.
I know e-bikes are the one thing that currently continues to sell well, but I also wonder are the margins really good on these things too? It's kinda like the early 2000's when American automakers realized that they made way more money off of SUVS because bigger car = higher price, but the actual productions cost were only marginally higher so they started making crazy profit, and therefore put the SUV marketing into hyperdrive? I'm not really trying to go after SRAM here either, it makes complete sense that they would make e-motor. More just like, are we being marketed so hard for e-bikes because that's what the consumer wants, or is the push to make us want this because they make way more money from e-bikes than regular bikes?
Also I think Cargo bikes as car replacement rule, I really want something like a Specialized Globe. But as my hobby bike, idk, they cost sooooo much.
We’re selling a lot because people are asking for them - there’s no need to push them at the retail level at least
Ebike market is growing because ebiking is significantly more fun than regular biking. I've been a loyal regular biker for 25 years, still completely fit and capable of riding my regular bike, but the ebike is 100% upside with no downside whatsoever (aside from current trail restrictions in some areas).
So without knowing anything about the inner workings of the bike industry... I think it is safe to say that they are building them because they are what consumers want. And they also probably know/predict that demand is only going to keep increasing as people like yourself slowly open up your minds and swing a leg over an emtb. Not hating you or anyone for not adopting yet, I get it normal bikes are also incredible fun and ebikes are absurdly expensive to dabble into. And depending on where you live, they might be fairly useless right now if they aren't allowed on your trails. But in time ebike restrictions will be going away and demand will only increase.
The issue is I still continue to shop for a regular bike for the times where I need one (local XC races, Ontario wide Enduro and downhill races and when I ride with friends who don't have ebikes). But those times come up very few and far between, and the friends I do ride with don't mind I'm on the ebike.
Everytime I ride my emtb I still feel a bit odd while doing so, but then when I ride my normal bike it makes me realize how much more fun I have on the ebike and how much more riding I can do in the 2 hours a week I get to ride.
So once you factor in an hour or two for some builds (internal headset routing), the cost of recycling the boxes and packaging, breaking down the boxes and packaging, the sales pitch to the customer, the test rides, etc your margins continuously dwindle. I know of shops that pay storage to store bikes that are still in their packaging.
Ski season is way more profitable lol.
I can GUARANTEE you that shops are not making even close to 40% margin on these bikes. That literally is just not the case. Ask me how I know.
I do totally agree that there needs to be solutions to manage the danger with higher speeds in both directions. Fortunately there is one very easy solution that needs to be implemented more on ALL trail networks, ebike or not, and that's more directional trails. Ebike or not, trails are insanely crowded these days and there are a LOT of beginner riders on both kinds of bikes. Having dedicated up and down routes is the only way forward for trail networks facing congestion issues.
Pretty big downside right there if you ask me.
As for the cost... they are expensive indeed. Not a massive difference if you are taking the plunge and selling your regular bike, but to keep a stable of both is definitely a burden. I sold my regular bike after getting my ebike. I would love to have it back for a ride or two a month, but to let an expensive bike depreciate in my garage for such little use isn't worth it to me.
The used market is getting pretty solid though and will only get better... depreciation is pretty brutal as new motor/battery technology drops, so in the coming years there should be great deals on very fun and capable ebikes.
That's really what is being asked, not how much the margin is a point of sale, but for the maker.
Anyone have a valid answer on that?
Divided by 8 bikes.
37.5 hours per bike before you dump it.
4.6 months per bike.
At an
Average of 10km/h that is 375km per bike.
16 laps of Half Nelson from my house over 16 weeks. And you are done with a bike….
There is some overlap where I owned multiple of these at different points. Along with road bikes, gravel bikes and fat bikes.
Putting this into perspective really made me realize my wife isn't wrong to be upset I do this LOL.
It's the same with shoes and such. If you sold 10 pairs of shoes, 5 would be at full retail, 3 at a discount and 2 at a loss is basically how it was explained to me.
I'm a ski tech these days, and selling skis, ski packages and accessories is in-line with selling mid-level bikes. Not better, not worse.
A recent problem we've had is riders ignoring the rules and riding up the trails. Imagine coming over a road gap and some $#!+bag is cranking up the landing. Then imagine your amazement when the rider gets pissed at YOU for almost hitting him. People have no respect for rules, and that uphill KOM is too a-luring. Guess how many Amish Bike riders are going for uphill KOM's on the Downhill trails?
I can tell you that you're wrong because I work in the industry. Nobody is getting those sorts of margins, not even big shops (again, ask me how I know).
Those bikes with deep discounts are only happening because shops have too much inventory and need to liquidate, because making no money on something is better than it sitting there costing money (and yes, many of them are being sold at cost or below), or because manufacturers are offering rebates to retailers to maintain margins, but in these cases margins are still tight and probably closer to 10-20%.
Once again - not a single retailer is making close to 50% margin. 33% is considered "full margin" on a bicycle, electric or not.
If you're confrontational and make it a fight, you're never going to get anywhere. The more experienced trail users have to take the high road and be friendly (yet firm) in educating the folks who don't know or don't respect the rules.
SRAM: This climb is too important for me to let you jeopardize it, I have taken control of this ride
Me: WTF SRAM, I am going to remove this new APP
SRAM: I am sorry Dave I can't let you do that.
Today I am ordering one for me and my wife. It was Amazing. I will keep my Spire but the new bike just made me want to ride all day and it felt new again, learning how to use the motor to my advantage and keep my cadence smooth. I didn't make the first 2 steep techy climbs that I usually clear on my Spire. Still gotta shift into the easier gears and really push to make the climbs. It's still biking just... different is my new opinion.
I would like Trek to come out with a E Slash with the TQ motor and that would be a contender. The Fazua system seems to be getting reviewed well but I am wary of it's reliability. Specialized's new SL motor seems to be a little lacking on power and range for what the battery it uses.
What did you get?
I totally see what you mean by a true luxury. For me, it would buy me not just more laps in a given ride (that whole more miles more smiles thing, with all the benefits from getting more descents for the same amount of climbing time), but also more rides (as it's possible to have active recovery rides in a way that's hard to do without the assist). And I agree that e-mtbs are different, and a different kind of riding.
I don't really see going back to a full-power eBike or a meat bike, but at 185lbs these mid-power options seem perfect. IMO the direction MFG's should continue exploring is modular batteries & range extenders.
Honestly, the new unit looks like the chinese cheap copy of the unit you can find on Spez bikes.
You cannot simply say *eff you!* to the likes of sram or shimano; and stram and shimano will not make the change to pinion style of integrated motor and gb until it will start hurting their sales. They make more money selling us a derraileur, a cassette and chain as there are more parts that fit in as consumables; wear and crashes force us to buy new ones.. which, globally, means a lot of money (a lot!); to change from that into a type of mechanism that for the most part, will need only maintenance and a belt change... "who's paying for the difference in $$$?", bike and bike companies are in this business to make money, not to make the best bike/bike components possible; and so, the change will happen only when they will start losing big money. (unfortunately!)
Also, as long as the offer is limited, the change will not happen. I like the fact that Simplon is offering pinion.. but I'am not a fan of the brand and on the brand's bikes. If the bikes would have been 1k..fine, I'd make the step but, 9-10k or more are serious money... and if I'm spending those money, be sured that I am spending on my dream bike from my dream brand... regardless of how much I like the ideea of pinion. (and, like me, probably there many many others... it is only natural.. and by natural I mean, a vicious circle - In my group 2,3 guys are so pro pinion.. for some years ago they kept "bombarding" us with info and kept bringing into discussion the gearbox system; when simplon launched their pinion bike, they were like "yeeeaah, finally, shimano and sram are going down, the eff with cassettes and derraileurs".. and so, 2 months later I asked them where are their simplon pinion bikes?!, #no answer, just excuses while they ride their bosch systems. It is human nature and, unfortunately, it might take a while... IMO, at least 8 to 10 years until big players will be forced to bring on the market such drive systems -
cheers!
Hence why I don't critique the companies so harshly... it's a tough job when everyone wants something different. As long as they're moving the ball forward making cool new things I'm happy and entertained.
Shifting gears too complicated? There's automatic shifting!
Need to push that thicc boi up some stuff? Don't worry! Push mode does it for you.
But yes, bar spins are definitely what their target customers are thinking.
Normal bikes transmissions get chewed and Never work properly for long Time, good for the market though but Bad for consumers expérience and the planet..
Well, good luck then sram with Brose being the most unreliable emtb motor company. Is it still over 80% that needs replacing during the first two years?
You probably don’t want to live in the building THOSE Bropeds are stored in……..
*Obsolescence program (fast Wear expensive products)
*Incompatibility with the rest of the market
*Only réparable in fewer shops
*Greenwashing ( it's all about this lately..)
*All about corporate greed
For context, i worked in a bikeshop and After replacing a lot of turbolevo motors a year to warranty, I would't buy one..
Pinion intégrated gearbox should be the way to go but markets wants to keep marketing..
I understand that shop owners love it, though, they bring back clients to the shops.. A lot..
Personally, this release doesn't excite me. Not just because I don't see myself running pedal assist anytime soon. But also because it seems like a very average product to take a slice of the OEM market and appeal to the bike brands rather than to actually appeal to the riders themselves.
Food for thought Brose
Motor not made by sram and is a brand that i'm gathering has a questionable history.
It does not rattle. Everyone says EP8's and Boschs rattle, that would drive me nutts.
This motor looks huge and a step backwards.
Eating $350 cassettes and $150 chains + new chainrings seems like reality and unaffordable.
SRAM's dealer network is appealing, it's one of my biggest concerns when picking a brand/motor combo.
It sounds like you're forced into using a reverb dropper with the remote on the left and side.
It’s the exact same motor that specialized uses but has a different tune. And ya, there’s no rattle. I tried the other systems and the clunking on downhill sections completely takes away from the experience and feels cheap.
It is a big motor and the same one that’s been in bikes for a while now and it’s disappointing that it’s not reworked to be lighter and smaller.
I have a ‘23 turbo Levo with quite a few days on it now riding in the worst conditions the BC coast has to offer and the only thing that’s failed is the crappy chain that came with the bike. I replaced it with high spec one and have no issues. My bikes an S4 and the build I have makes it 50lbs. Would love it if it was 3-5 lbs lighter. Imo a 2024 version of a brose should lose at least a pound or two and new battery tech should do the same.
Personally I wouldn’t want to be married to having to use the entire sram system because that’s how the remote is programmed.
This whole package seems like a missed opportunity.
I’m excited to see where these eebz go in the next 10 years.
I’ll be not buying any of them for a while….
It’s that cool to watch while my very modern analog bike just got so dialed that I can chill on buying and save save save every penny for my new…… 350xc-f
The TQ is a unique value proposition. Most comparison reviews get caught up in range & power, and yes TQ is not a leader here. However, if you are looking for the LEAST INTRUSIVE eBike experience nothing else comes close. That means quietest, stealthy looks, natural pedal feel, and an ownership experience that doesn't constantly remind you you're on an eBike (error codes, parts failures, water issues, charging complications etc)
Aug 2023: {{ Speculate here }}
Sept 2023: SRAM delivers a motor powered by Brose
Jan 2024: SRAM buys Borse?
I think they regret buying the entry level e-bike motor manufacturer and now they are going full Kashima, T-type build, golden chain and stuff. I feel you Brose.
I tried to retighten it couple of times with the same result (using blue past) it`s starts to squeak(
everything inside motor looks ok
Did anyone figure out how solve it?
It's all about the money!!
Pd: not again expropriation of dentist for his expensive toys, but don't call it ecological or revolutionary..
Blip remotes - problem solved. Under bar dropper remote for the super dropper (for whiny riders who cannot remember when one stopped to lower a seat post with a QR and complain that 170 mm isn't enough??) and a blip remote (next to the grip) for the e-engine.
And once enough consumers, rather than the race team, suggest that the upper button become a sequencial option loop rather than an either-or loop the FW can probably be re-written to allow an "off-range-rally" loop with press and hold retaining the 'push' function. It is amazing what can be adjusted with FW updates.
Glad to see more option out there, meaning the current one hopefully will go down in price.
If you cant laugh at life you aren't worth much
(eeb's look really fun, but I couldn't pass up the alliteration)
They might be off the back here but they came in correctly. Being able to step right over the top of Shimano is huge. Just one more thing that SRAM can package up with OE's.
SRAM is very quickly expanding its number 1 status across the board. Shimano/Fox/TRP, etc.... these companies have to figure out how to work together better and start making better products than SRAM is. If SRAM is on par with these other guys and can offer a single source solution with discounted rates to OE's... good luck. That OE money is gone for the next few years... better start capitalizing on after market.
Availability. Product line spectrum. Ability to have a complete offering and package that at OE friendly rates. Etc.
That's mainly what I'm talking about.
If I'm making the choice I'm 100% not a SRAM guy... at all. Never have been. Even back in the day I was a Marzocchi guy.
For e-bikes... I'm curious about this platform but right now if I'm choosing... I'm leaning toward Bosch. Specialized probably still number 1 but that's not really what I'm looking for right now. Until they release a Keno update.
*Obsolescence program (fast Wear expensive products)
*Incompatibility with the rest of the market
*Only réparable in fewer shops
*Greenwashing ( it's all about this lately..)
*All about corporate greed
For context, i worked in a bikeshop and After sending 3 turbolevo motors a year to warranty, I would't buy one..
I love propper ebikes though, I have a cheap 750w 120nm bafang mounted with a rohloff tandem gearhub ( UP to 160nm capacity), i run a chain a year, change oil every 5000 kms and that's all.. Not a problem in 3 years of daily use, and i Can fix it myself with cheap available parts..
That's my business model, Shimano and SRAM wont like it..
But the real benefit in e-bikes is utility as transportation, not Bropeds for lazy singletrack riders.
Wait until Honda or Kawasaki come into the market…….or a bigger transportation player like GM or Toyota. No more bike shops selling/wrenching on on e-bikes. Increasingly complex and proprietary designs that require even more tools and training will become the norm. Any pretense of an ebike being anything other than a (mainly) motorized means of transportation will fall away.
The use of terms like powertrain are already pointing the way…..
Broped riders are the worst…..they try to claim they’re on bicycles, but switched over to stop needing to produce the watts themselves.
Advances in battery density made this inevitable, but an ebike is a MOTORBIKE you pedal a *little*. Motor assist would be the tiny motors and batteries road pros are accused of hiding in their seat tubes.
Genie’s out and all, but it’s not great.
Since it’s not quiiiite a motorcycle, it’s a two wheeled platypus, not one thing or another.
That’s like that person that shows up with their tires flat because they didn’t check their tires.