Mike Kazimer's 2024 Predictions

Dec 4, 2023 at 16:31
by Mike Kazimer  
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Freeriding is alive and well in the Sea to Sky corridor. Photo: Joe Wakefield

The Freeride Revival

Ride to the Hills, one of the best mountain bike movies ever, was released in 2001. That means there's a whole new generation of riders out there who weren't even born when that classic came out, and who never got to experience the joys of ripping a derailleur off on a sketchy skinny, or of launching off flights of stairs until something broke (usually the bike, sometimes a bone or three).

I feel like the timing is right for an old-school freeride revival. If events like Yoann Barelli's Tour de Gnar are any indication, there's no shortage of talented riders who are capable of pushing the sport to places the early pioneers wouldn't have imagined. I've also noticed a smattering of new features starting to pop up in the woods, a skinny here and a log ride there, a sign that some of the classics from freeriding's first wave are making a comeback.

Enduro racing seems to be fizzling out faster than a birthday candle in the rain, which means there's going to be a whole bunch of riders looking for more ways to stay entertained on their fancy long travel bikes. To top it all off, the fashion styles of the late '90s / early 2000's are back, so it's prime time to put on those JNCOs and go find a skinny to ride or a roof to huck off.

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Longer and slacker is great, and so are laser cats, but everything has a limit.

The Pace of Geometry Change Slows Down

We're at a very good place when it comes to the geometry of most bikes – steeper seat angles, slacker head angles, and longer reach numbers have all combined to make the modern mountain bike more versatile than ever. For years, every new bike was longer, lower, and slacker than the one before it, but I have a feeling that's not going to be as common of a refrain. More adjustability will become a theme, though, because it's harder for riders (and reviewers) to complain if there's an infinite number of possibilities.

I'd say that for the most part, reach numbers seem to have hit their natural limit – at a certain point, a bike will start to feel unwieldy and dull on anything other than high-speed straightaways, and most riders don't have the steeps of Champéry out their back door (and even the riders in Champéry don't ride bikes that are 10 feet long).

Despite Henry Quinney's claim that bikes are going to get steeper, I think that's going to be the exception rather than the rule – for enduro bikes I'd expect head angles to remain in the 63 – 64-degree range. There's still plenty of room to experiment with slacker head angles, though, especially for shorter travel bikes.

As for chainstay lengths, I think it's safe to say that the average length will start to creep up, but I'm far from convinced that there's one magic number or ratio when it comes to geometry. I've ridden bikes with stubby chainstays that have been an absolute blast to ride, and I've also ridden bikes with long chainstays that have been just as fun. To a certain extent it comes down to personal preference, and the mountain bike world would be pretty dull if there was just one fixed set of geometry numbers that was supposed to work perfectly for everyone.

Scott Ransom staff ride
Back in 2019, my Scott Ransom weighed in at 30.2 pounds, and that's with 29" wheels and 170mm of travel. Nowadays, modern enduro bikes are regularly creeping past the 35-pound mark.

Weight Starts to Matter Again

Ah, the old 'weight doesn't matter' argument. There's merit to the idea that you shouldn't worry too much about how much your bike weighs, especially if you're focusing on downhill performance. However, mountain bike weights have crept up a fair bit in the last few years due to longer travel dropper posts, heavier tires, and burlier suspension.

I'm glad all of those items exist – I don't miss lowering my seat by hand, or fixing multiple flats on a ride – but when e-bikes are hitting the market that only weigh a few pounds more than a bike without a battery or a motor, well, there's probably room for improvement. Now that bikes have become relatively durable, maybe it's time to start looking for spots to shave grams without diminishing the performance.

1000-gram tires that are as tough and supportive as DH tires without the weight? Dropper posts that are ½ pound lighter than they are now? Long travel forks that are stiff, strong, and reasonably light? There's plenty of potential – we'll just have to wait and see what the future holds.




Author Info:
mikekazimer avatar

Member since Feb 1, 2009
1,722 articles

260 Comments
  • 195 0
 "Enduro racing seems to be fizzling out " - Regional events still seem to be popular though. It's just the EWS coverage/scheduling being gutted by the UCI that seems to be taking the excitement out of the pointiest end of the sport. Grassroots interest may very well keep it humming along.

I'm hoping this evolves into a non-uci league centered here in North America. We could connect a lot of the disparate events pretty easily if we had some coordination.
  • 81 0
 Yep, hopefully we see an explosion of local enduro events, both shorter and longer Trans-style. Just because the UCI doesn't give a shit doesn't mean it's not still popular.
  • 37 0
 Fore sure, all the western Canada races seem to be selling out. Don't even get me started on the DH races. My son had 84 kids in his category at a Canada Cup this year.
  • 20 0
 Totally agree! Grassroots enduro is awesome and just in my little nook of North America there are 3 or 4 different series I'd consider racing in. Even more one-off races that are put on by local clubs. I met numerous people last year who just started racing, so its certainly still growing!

UCI really seems to be setting themselves to go the way of Olympics in snowboarding. E.g. only a few people care and the true top of the sport is not defined by a so called "world level" competion. Honestly, it would probably be for the best for mtbing in general to break away from the roadies at UCI whom seem obssesed with making mtbing into some Frankenstein of the Tour de France and F1 (both of which I have exactly Ø interest in).
  • 4 2
 Yeah enduro is still popular. It's just the coverage of it is fizzling out and I can see why. It's bloody hard to make an entertaining package! They are competing for our time, with competition like youtube and netflix. If you cant make it entertaining why are people going to watch?
  • 7 0
 @powderhoundbrr: And yet the Canadian enduro this year is significantly shorter with less stops. Only 4 events total which makes no sense to me?
  • 24 0
 Enduro is definitely a taking part sport, not a spectator sport. As long as organisers remember that there'll be plenty of events for us plebs to ride in. But I'm not sure it's good for a pro-series anymore.
  • 26 1
 @marshallthewolf: I have zero problems moving as far away from the UCI as we can. I mean, they're enforcing rules about the height of socks and angle of brakes in the roadie world. Do we want that kind of oversight in the mtb world?

I don't think anyone wants that...
  • 6 8
 @jsnfschr: yeah we need UCI enforcing and creating rules, hopefully for the better. If it wasn't for them everyone would be wearing aero skin suits.
  • 21 2
 @Fix-the-Spade: Like softball, bowling and corn hole...who wants to watch other people when they can actually have more fun doing it themselves.
It's actually sad that we live in a world where you can make money playing pro corn hole.
  • 12 1
 My prediction is that DH will fizzle some because nobody wants to pay $10-15/month to watch so few events on TV.
  • 4 1
 @marshallthewolf: Spot on comment. I wish I coul upvote 100 times.
  • 5 1
 @ajaxwalker: Who cares if top end pro runs skin suits? They look silly, but that is on them. Less frivolous rules (skin suit rule is frivolous) the better.
  • 14 1
 I'd love to see more blind racing events. I don't like races where people either know the courses for weeks ahead and practice the heck out of them or know the courses a few days before and then lap them endlessly with eebs.
  • 3 0
 On the contrary, the Canadian Enduro League just announced a 4 event schedule for 2024, down from 8 (I believe) in 2023. Not saying the demand isn't there but clearly there are some constraints.
  • 11 4
 Enduro is still the Mtb format that is closest to what people actually ride. The industry (including the media) doesn’t seem to be interested any more but they have been spectacularly wrong many times before.
  • 1 0
 @ReformedRoadie: A sport can be both, but I don't think Enduro is.
  • 5 0
 @bman33: I always thought the looking silly argument was inherently silly. As if riders look any cooler going down the hill wearing colour matched pyjamas.
  • 1 0
 @ratedgg13: Part of the reason is the expense of Enduro's.
  • 8 0
 @jsnfschr: Lol, at the Kicking Horse Canada Cup DH during practice a guy I know in the old guy fun category was racing in jeans. During practice the UCI people said it was not appropriate and he needed to wear race pants.He went home.
  • 5 1
 @Fix-the-Spade: It's not that enduro is bad to watch - the highlight shows are good - it's that it is very tough to cover live. People complain about enough camera's on a single DH track. Plus the logistics of what to show at any given time with riders spread across stages.
  • 4 0
 @ajaxwalker: #makeskinsuitsgreatagain
  • 12 0
 Bear with me on this comparison. When I was a kid in the 90s I played competitive paintball and made it pretty far with several competitive teams. We played 10 vs 10 in the woods and it was truly an amazing sport. The sport was brand new and pretty popular then but was nearly impossible to televise and bring to the masses. Over the next few years they introduced canned arena style play with less players on teams. All in an effort to bring the sport to the masses and capitalize on its popularity. We went to several world cups down in Florida and traveled around quite a bit but the actual fun of game we loved was gone. This sort of reminds me of where enduro racing is at the moment.
  • 1 2
 @bman33: Skin suits may not be the best example but i think its a slippery slope. In swimming the banned the hi-tech suits because it was costly and didn't add anything to the sport besides making it more expensive for everyone.

Anyone I think rules are fine as long as they are implemented for the best interest of everyone. It may cut out some tech innovation but i think its for the better. Without they would probably be working on 32" tires or something along those lines.
  • 5 1
 I’m seeing a resurgence in Super D. Bootleg Canyon pulled the enduro from their format and are bringing back the Super D because it was more popular and of the low turnout for enduro racing..
  • 1 2
 @ajaxwalker: maybe if they did a tik tok dance or concreted their heads in a microwave ….. it seems the way forward in tertainme t terms is going back to the days of jackass
  • 5 0
 @powderhoundbrr: I did my first Old Man Fun category DH race at Stevie Smith this year. I was worried I was going to get busted for not having pants and only had a pair of brown trousers as back up. I guess that wouldn't fly either!
Thank fully my fox pads from 2001 cover so much leg they didn't have any issue lol

It is the same with the long sleeve jersey requirement. You can race without gloves, but you can't have any wrist exposure?

I had so much fun, but it was only due to the people around me, not anything CyclingBC/UCI contributes.
  • 4 2
 @ajaxwalker: we have to respectfully disagree. DH in particular by nature pushes boundaries by desgin where diciplines such as road are tightly boud by rules and gaurdrails. Other than sterious or motors, the wilder the better in DH. if 32" wheels work (they would be extremely cumbersome) they let someone like Minaar go for it. If skin tight suits make them feel better, fine. Aero benefits aren't as beneifical in DH than in say road or timetrail. Do we want sails our our bikes? No. However, the attire DH riders wear shouldn't be regulated nor should things like wheelsize, paint color, brake rotors, suspenion design, etc etc. Homogenized bikes/riders is super boring. Leave that mess to the Road folks
  • 1 0
 @no-good-ideas: That same press release stated it's due to the increase of local series, so the Canadian Series would plan "For 2024, we talked to riders and it was clear that a few bigger, more competitive events (with more prize money)" to meet a higher level need. It could be that this higher level national series brings a lot of pro teams to show up for, prize purses really don't need to be that high to outpace the UCI winnings

BC is hosting an enduro series, Vancouver Island has an enduro series, and I am certain a few big ones back east as well. Enduro is growing more and more - our local high school district even has a series!
  • 3 0
 @ReformedRoadie: I agree. Who wants to watch Pro Pickleball?
  • 9 0
 @Fix-the-Spade: there is a great way to cover it. Dean Lucas has a great YouTube piece on it, from a recent cast.

It's pretty simple.

You put cams up at cool features for highlights, but the live feed is only the final stage.

For the final stage, you reseed from last to first, and pick any number that fit into a broadcast segment. Then, you see stage 5 runs just like a dh run.

There's no reason to try and show all riders on all stages....just give us the top 30 on stage 5.. there times are just as close, if not closer than dh runs...so the excitement stands!
  • 3 0
 @jlok: valid point. Thanks for pointing that out.
  • 5 0
 IMO enduro even on a regional level is going to shrink in popularity. The main reason I believe this is the cost, where I live these races are over $200 an entry and if there’s no avenue to go race World Cups/EWS and get paid if you get good results, interest from a participation level is going to dwindle.
  • 1 0
 @stunnanumma1: There was a recent enduro event in NZ or Tassie where you were allowed multiple runs on stages and your fastest time on each stage counted for your final ranking.
  • 8 0
 I guess it depend where you live. I'm from South east of france, 2h away from Allos which is considered as the birth place of Enduro. We did Enduro back in 2003/2004 around the region, long before it has a name. We called it Rallye but the concept what bascally the same. It was very popular among riders and honestly it peaked I will say around 2016/2017. Since then, the race format is clearly on the decline. We have less and less people racing since the courses became super challenging technically and phase out all the middle age men basically.
If the racing parts of it is on the decline around here, people still are riding long travel bike on technicals terrains. So the Enduro type of riding is not on the decline, only the racing part of it is.
  • 3 0
 @Struggleteam:
I was in Aspen CO. about 10 years ago, and heard there was a national enduro race going on. Wow! I’m gonna go check it out!
Long story short, I spent a full day on my bike, all over the mountain, failing to get a glimpse of ANY riders at all. I finally made my way to the pits and watched riders filter in. I asked the factory teams where I could check out the cool DH sections. They just kinda shrugged.
I could respect the sport because it seemed just hardcore- those riders were coming back in, beat to a pulp.
But as a spectator, I gave up.
  • 4 1
 @powderhoundbrr: BC is a mecca. In the rest of the world MTB isn't as popular.
  • 2 0
 @ajaxwalker: Why can't they just use drones?
  • 5 0
 @Ttimer: XC is the format that is closest to what people actually ride.
  • 1 0
 @Ebab: What is Super D vs Enduro?
  • 4 0
 @bbachmei: Yeah, I want to do do an Enduro race, but it costs too much and requires a 3-4 day weekend. Sure, if you are at trust fund van lifer I'm sure it's great, but I work for a living. XC races are like $30 and don't take up more than a half a day usually.
  • 1 0
 @totaltoads: super D is like an Enduro stage but longer with short uphil or flat pedal sections. A mix of DH and XC. 1run and done and usually shuttled to the top vs 3-5 stages w/transfer stages. Shorter day and more spectator friendly.
  • 2 0
 @no-good-ideas: I think sometimes it is date clashes that stop additional rounds. For example, I know they wanted to returrn to Crowsnest, as it was a rider favourite, but the weekend that they could do was already 'taken' by an ultra running event with 1200 entries so that meant no accommodation and almost no volunteers (including the the critical medical support category) to help run it.

I volunteered as a medic at the Bees Knees Enduro they ran in September and it was excellent. I think there is scope for UROC to run a proper two day enduro across their 2-3 riding areas and it would be awesome.
  • 3 0
 @heatproofgenie: I agree on blind racing, though some will say it's not safe. I raced a BME and there were a few spots that I definitely would not have felt comfortable racing blind, though, but that was the double black DH lines.
All the TransBC, TransNew Englend, etc are raced blind. I was told they have signage for gaps and I assume heavy obstacles.
  • 2 0
 @motts: Right the Trans races are the example and proof of concept of how to make blind racing work and work well. The super gnarly, blind type features just need to be omitted.

Incidentally I raced the Aspen/Snowmass BME in '18 blind and it was very fun but there were for sure some areas I gave up massive time due to not knowing the course. Also Banzai DH on Snowmass was extra spicy blind, speficially the one blind drop into the tight right hander. Still remember that one vividly.
  • 2 0
 @hpman83: "Rallye" is actually a much better fitting name for normal Enduro-races. Over here, it's usually 4-7 short(ish) stages, and with slow transports + waiting it's all done in 3-4 hours. Not much enduro/endurance in that compared to MTB marathons which are the same duration, but full gas all the way.

Some places do Trail cups, which is the same format, but without big mountains. So there would be MTB rally & MTB gravity rally Smile
  • 3 0
 @knutspeed: enduro Mtb gets its name from the Moto racing Format that has existed for a long time. Contrary to popular belief, It was wasn’t invented for Mtb. Enduro is my favorite way to race a Moto but again not as popular as other genres because it’s hard to televise and doesn’t have the spectacle factor of other formats.
  • 3 0
 @Struggleteam:
The best rides of my life were Enduro style single track- bombing through trees at speed. Rolling on the throttle in 3rd gear- I should be dead many times over.
Why did we do this? No cameras, no fans, no trophy, no prize money and worst of all, no hot babes lining the trails..
And no proof of any of it after it was over! Just a bunch of s#*t talk after the race.
Such goes enduro..
  • 3 0
 @Struggleteam: yeah, aware. But in Moto it's one long, very physical race, correct? Not stages with lax transport sections? As in "endurance" - which I find regular Enduro races the opposite. More like intervals.
Remember spectating once, many years ago. Was a really nasty bog/swap where the bikes more or less sunk. Riders were totally spent when they got there, and more or less passed out dragging themselves and the bikes out. Looked like type 2 fun!
  • 4 0
 @knutspeed: Nah, Moto Enduro racing is timed stage racing. The mtb enduro format mimicks it. Your total time is your score. Usually a combo of single track, extreme test, double tracks and easy fire roads connecting. Always makes me chuckle when the mtb enduro bros act like they invented it.
  • 2 0
 @Struggleteam: ah, then I stand corrected. Coming from the car-side of motorsports, I always figured bicycle enduro was like rallies. Enduros for cars are typical long-distance events with driver changes.

So I would still vote for "MTB-rally" Smile
  • 2 0
 @Struggleteam: There was a time when moto enduro was much different than that, where there was a timing element and you had an average speed for a section, unknown checkpoints and you had to "stay on your minute"
You were penalized points it you were late, and even more if you were early (which mostly prevented cheating/course cutting and going stupid fast to make up time on open sections)
Riders had a route sheet - basically a roll of paper that had you match your time to your odometer.
No idea if this exists anymore...I did a few at the end of the '80s, then stopped and stopped following. Not sure when the format transitioned to the Rallye type one today.
  • 2 0
 @knutspeed: @knutspeed : Exactly, timed stages with reasonably mellow transits between stages, just like rally. I've seen them called stage races or enduro. Then one I raced was done blind, in fact some of the tracks were put in fresh for the race and they specifically stated that you would be DQ'd if they caught you out there in the weeks before the race.
  • 2 0
 @ReformedRoadie @Struggleteam:
Yeah exactly, the definition of moto enduro was basically Time/Speed/Distance stages (like a TSD car rally), and Moto "Rallies" are point to point stages, fastest time wins.

So I agree that MTB Rally or Rallye is a bit of a more appropriate name for what the racing has become (or I like to call it "stage racing").

With the availability of bike computers now, a TSD style "enduro" where you need to keep an average speed might be pretty fun on a MTB and accessible to more people.
  • 3 0
 @ShawMac: Now that I think about it...This is something where Strava could actually be useful to determine what a difficult, but obtainable average could be over a section.
Computer could be set-up to simply have an up or down arrow or audible sound to tell you if you were ahead or behind your minute.
Hmm.

I used to think looking down a computer while racing would be too distracting, but roadies look down at their wattage all the time...
  • 68 0
 I'm no weight weenie, but I do consider myself weight conscious. Given that I pedal a lot to access fun trails/descents, I make an effort to consider weight in the price vs. durability vs. performance vs. value equation. The lightest part doesn't always win, but often times it's a factor in the decision - I agree that a general focus on more reasonable weights is and will continue to be important to those who don't just "smash descents" and still pedal their bikes with some desire to get up the hill quick enough.
  • 77 27
 i go for a poo before every ride i save 10lbs at least
  • 19 6
 Or you could go for a rear tyre tread with less rolling resistance, that's going to make a bigger difference than a few hundred grams here or there.
  • 94 2
 @Compositepro: That sounds like a load of shit.
  • 48 1
 @bigtim: im full of it
  • 5 3
 I want to be a weigh weenie but I love my Cotic FlareMax too much
  • 20 25
flag William42 (Dec 18, 2023 at 11:38) (Below Threshold)
 I think in general the reason that weight doesn't matter as much now as it used is just based on the historical give and take between the industry pushing stupid ass ideas and it blowing back on them as consumers realize the products suck.

Back in 2007-2009 range, we had a bunch of DH bikes that weighed 40-42lbs or so with pretty decent geometry. Enduro bikes were stupid overgrown XC bikes with too much travel for XC and geometry too shitty for being fun on the descent. For some reason the industry was pushing this "Freeride" idea and producing alternate DH bikes with XC geometry so you could pedal but also ride rampage on it. They sucked pretty bad. XC bikes for some reason had near road bike geometry, and the idea of installing a dropper post and thus adding weight was heresy. There were a few bike companies making good DH bikes, and everybody was kind of just copying them. Since the marketing wanks running the cycling industry were out of good ideas like "listening to feedback from riders who are actually good at riding bikes and knew what made bikes good to ride" it was time for them to make some moves on some of the more stupid shit. They started pushing weight really hard. Soon we had DH bikes weighing 35lbs with single wall tires and absolutely horrific air shocks. The products rode like crap, but the general population ate it up for awhile.

Then as consumers came to their senses and decided it sucked and started pushing for better bikes, we moved into the era of "lets apply DH bike geometry to trail bikes with shorter travel, but make the seatpost steeper so we can pedal." The focus moved to geometry and suspension kinemetics and resulted in some bikes that perform much better. As the focus shifted away from weight, bikes started coming stocked with good heavy casing tires that actually provided damping and grip, and in general parts were more focused on reliability. SRAM produced a cassette machined out of a bigass chunk of steel.

We're at the end of the "products are pretty good" cycle so I'd imagine we see more proprietary shit and dumbass ideas percolating again now that the marketing industry that owns big bike has run that horse into the ground and is back to "out of ideas." We'll probably see more enduro and trail bikes with idler pulleys because for some reason that's something beneficial and desirable for trail bikes now, more wombo-combos of stupid like high engagement hubs with an Ochain. Component companies will probably decide that shaving a further 30g off forks is a great idea, as they've realized forcing a fork replacement every 2 years due to creaking CSU's is awesome, but it could be even better if forks were only expected to last 14-18 months (with a 12m warranty) before they fell apart.

Maxxis is making another push at trying to convince everybody undamped single wall tires like EXO+ are great and you should ride them instead of doubledowns or DH tires that actually provide damping because they can sell you less rubber at the same price, and I imagine other companies will follow suit.

In 4-5 years people will be trying to convince themselves that their bikes are actually better than they were today despite falling apart in 6 months because now they weigh 29lbs and before they weighed 33-34.

Also, a company will finally invent an air shock that feels like a coil (just kidding they wont and they should just stop).

So in short, you'll probably get your wish of lighter bikes in a few years. They'll be crappy, ride poorly, and fall apart quickly, but small price to pay for that oh so sweet scale shot you can post for the likes the day you get it.
  • 15 2
 Going to a faster rolling tire changed my 38.25 lbs freeduro bike from a slog uphill to a manageable pedal bike. It's not fast but it's easy to do a 3000-4000 ft gain day on it. That and getting more fit, but I'll chalk it up to the tire instead.
  • 11 4
 @Compositepro: So you'd avoid pooing if bike weight wasn't a factor??
  • 3 1
 @William42: Interesting take. I think you might be onto something. Review this post in 2028.
  • 9 0
 I agree, I would say bike makers could start marketing long travel bikes to people who aren't as heavy, ride competitively uphill and aren't hard on their equipment. If the bike is durable enough, it seems to me any person against lighter bikes simply doesn't care how long it takes to get up the hill. Ever increasing weight and burlier equipment is total overkill for someone like me, but I do want the travel and geometry of a bigger bike.
  • 4 6
 @mammal: no its my irritable bowel if i dont go before the jiggling of my digestive sytem forses the turtles head out , where i ride its mainly heather and a crap in the wild ….. well its not unenjoyqble till right at the end
  • 5 0
 @noodlewitnosteeze: Yep, I got stuck with having to buy a MaxxGrip compound tire for the rear of my bike due to availability and even just the switch from MaxxTerra to MaxxGrip made it feel like I was pedaling through mud. Some people are riding DH casing, Maxxgrip Assegai's with cushcore pro... might as well push up at that point.
  • 2 0
 @tempnoo1: I do traditionally do this. For instance, my favorite mid-long travel trail bike tire setup right now is a 29x2.4" DHR II front, 29x2.4" Forekaster rear - both in EXO casings. The pair is a little under 2kg, and they roll quickly given the really solid grip. That updated Forekaster is a fantastic rear tire.
  • 2 1
 I’ve been told that Nirvana starts at 38 pounds these days.
  • 1 0
 @Lessarde: That's where my Spot Mayhem 150 steps in - it's around 31.6lbs in my normal configuration (w/ pedals, bottle cage, and bell) and has fantastic geometry for hauling up and down the hill. Not to mention, it pedals amazingly well.
  • 4 2
 @islandforlife: it's too bad some manufacturers can't produce DH tires that have a harder compound.
  • 3 0
 @mitch7mtb: I've heard good things about the new Forekaster. Haven't ridden one in years.
  • 2 0
 @jaydawg69: IKR. Maybe I should dig a little deeper into their rubber and casing specs, but I still haven't found a Maxxis tire that I like as a rear tire for enduro. Vigilantes, Dual compound Eliminators, and even Magic Mary's are a better balance of grip versus rolling speed.

I know a lot of people swear by the High Roller out back, but I wasn't a fan.
  • 2 1
 @Glory831Guy: depends where you ride but Eliminators don't have enough grip for the PNW. I DHR2 DH casing in MaxTerra would be killer but pretty sure it doesn't exist. Same for the Specialized tires but I think Continentals you get a soft (not supersoft) DH rear.
  • 4 3
 @tempnoo1: This is a huge thing that people seem to ignore. They google "best tire" and get a tire that's so grippy and terrible at rolling that they blame the bike for being bad.
When you're pedaling down a hill and people are pulling away from you while coasting, you know it's sticky as hell
  • 3 2
 @jaydawg69: the dh maxxterra dhr2 is what we want! Im so tired of having to swap rear tires every other week during park season. The maxxgrip feels great but is really only good for a few days in the park.
  • 4 3
 @Compositepoo: username does not check out
  • 1 0
 @bman33: It is great as a rear tire but I didn't care for it as a front. I believe it is too "heavy" for XC applications compared to tires like the Specialized Ground Control T7, but it's excellent as a trail bike rear tire.
  • 2 0
 @islandforlife: To be honest, I don't agree. I was speaking more on the type of tire you're using. The experience I had was Assegai EXO+ front and back to an Assegai front DHR-II rear. Both are Maxxgrip and Double down. I pedal a lot more than I used to, and have an easier time of it too. I've found actually getting in the gym and getting weighted workouts along with actually finding a V02 max is the biggest thing for pedaling efficiency.
  • 1 2
 @mi-bike: i see what you did there
  • 3 0
 @Austink: Try the Michelin DH34 Bike Park. Tubeless ready, wire bead, hard rubber (not meant for wet conditions, but not worse than maxxterra), 1220gr in 27.5. VERY reasonably priced. Cons: need good tyre levers and a compressor to fit and get them seated.
  • 1 1
 @tempnoo1: or just get a bike with less travel.
  • 3 0
 @gnarnaimo: Bikes go through cycles. When the marketing schmucks who don't know shit take over and lead the way, bikes get shittier and we get wonky shit like idlers on trail bikes and single wall 800g tires on enduro bikes.

Then they bottom out somewhere as consumers get sick of their shit and they begin getting better. We just peaked recently and we're starting to see the pendulum swing back towards stupid and proprietary shit that makes bikes worse.

In a few years, somebody will make an air shock that finally feels like a coil.
  • 1 0
 @William42: @William42: I went ahead and upvoted you just for the effort
  • 1 0
 Lightweight=$$$’s.
I’m afraid the cost of shedding those extra Lbs will just make an e-bike look more attractive.
  • 2 4
 @William42: vast majority of riders don't need DD or DH casings. I have ridden standard EXO for years and I have never had issues apart from a few times the tire was underinflated.

Thought I grant a lot of riders have poorly setup suspension. My rental bikes always had horrible setups and compensated by using 2ply tires. I've introduce a few friends to the wonders of servicing their suspension and tuning it for their riding/weight properly and suddenly they are not longer destroying tires and wheels.
  • 1 0
 @mkul7r4: 35 lbs of steel hits different than 35 lbs of carbon and aluminum.
  • 1 0
 @Compositepro: What if you can't poo?
  • 5 0
 @William42: I'm not sure why you have such a cynical view on the industry :/

Generally all the design and engineering teams at bike companies are mega-enthusiastic cyclists themselves (to the extent they probably only earn 60-70% what they would earn in another industry). They are all trying to make the best products they can. The reason geometry was trash in the past is because MTB came from road. Some companies figured out the lower, longer, slacker thing faster than others. There was also a lot of improvement in suspension designs, brakes and drivetrains for a while (because those sucked for most of the early 2000s and into the 2010s) and geometry was probably not holding the bikes back as badly as those other things were. Dropper posts took a long time to get developed and equipped. Lots of companies went slightly in the wrong direction because these things are only clear in hindsight (lefties, pull shocks and loads of other weird stuff).

Something that slows the development down significantly is tooling and MOQs. If your factory has just invested in a tonne of tooling you can't change the design to something radically different the very next year and then again the year after and again the year after. The improvement needs to be incremental and ideally making bigger leaps every 2-4 years rather than tonnes of small changes. This is just commercial reality. BMW doesn't overhaul the 3-series with the latest and greatest stuff every year. It's a longer cycle where you have to pay off the tooling and the development costs of the one you've just brought to market.

In less than 20 years we've gone from totally shit bikes to pretty much all the manufacturers making pretty dialled bikes. I would ride an Enduro bike from almost any major brand and have a blast on it.

The next thing to do is bring the price point of bikes down generally (really awesome full sus bikes for £1999) and get the price of decent ebikes down as well. I think that will happen naturally. Specialized Status is starting to get there.

The top-end bikes will keep getting better, but we're already at a point where bikes are way better than riders. Pretty much all modern enduro bikes can make light work of Champery DH track - most riders can't.
  • 3 0
 @totaltoads: Those kinds of general statements are just a sign of narrow-mindedness. EXO casings might be fine for almost everyone where you ride, but other regions with different types of trails, surfaces or riding modes might require something else.

I've lived in regions where what you said was true. But i've also been to regions where the trails are very rocky, the rocks are razor-sharp and the walk out with an unfixable flat would have been 3 hours of alpine hiking. Thats why DH casings on trailbikes sometimes make sense.
  • 2 0
 @jaydawg69: we have been asleep at the wheel. I just looked and maxxis has added dhr in dh with maxxterra in both 27.5 and 29. Universal cycles has stock (at least 27.5). This is a game changer!
  • 1 0
 @Austink: nada in Canada
  • 1 0
 @jaydawg69: bummer. When I searched the product number directly it only popped up on maxxis’ site and universal cycles. So maybe they are just new and not distributed yet to the masses.
  • 1 0
 @Bunabe: Get a haircut, trim your nails, don’t wear socks.
  • 1 0
 @nickfranko: I never understood why the minion with grippy rubber is basically the default MTB tire. It doesn't make sense for most riders or locations who don't need the grip but are slowed down by the weight and resistance.
  • 1 0
 @Mr-Monterey: That tire doesn't have to be heavy, it's available in many different casings, and I'd be willing to wager that it's more common in the Max Terra compound than Max Grip if we're talking about OEM tires that come on stock builds.

I'd think the Sticky Minion riders make that choice "by default" because the value grip in wet rocks/roots and mud, over rolling resistance and weight.
  • 71 4
 Every time i MENTION the weight of any trail bike being too heavy here like over 31 pounds I take a beating here, For the record i have owned a dozen maybe a few more and they are all between 28-31 pounds, a mix of 29, 650 and 26. I have not broken or had any other catastrophic events with them. I am feeling my age lately and hauling a 34 pound anchor is not in my cards.
80% of the rides are uphill....Embrace reality.
  • 16 20
flag ryan77777 (Dec 18, 2023 at 11:10) (Below Threshold)
 You're selling me on an ebike now.
  • 3 4
 @ryan77777: yes even eeeeeeee crappers are 38 pounds now like DH bikes.
  • 18 20
 | Every time i MENTION the weight of any trail bike being too heavy here like over 31 pounds I take a beating
| 80% of the rides are uphill....Embrace reality.

Because 80% of that ride is a means to end to get to the fun part.

No one is pedalling a mini-DH bike uphill because they like the challenge! It's because the ride back down is the fun part. Why on earth would I sacrifice the best part !?

Depends where you ride though. I rock a 35lbs alloy Nomad, all coil, mini-DH spec but I also point it down BC's wildest terrain. I absolutely would not sacrifice a single pound. Maybe a carbon frame but I don't want to spend $3000 to save 2lbs.
  • 13 0
 Literally this. Happened last week. The technology exists for both light and strong (perhaps not cheap), and I'd rather pay for that than another battery on the bike or headset routing.
  • 4 0
 @miff: OK then embrace the pain the reward will be dope
  • 13 0
 @miff: Point um case,you ride in BC. Most other people don't,and don't need a DH bike with a dropper to enjoy their trails.
A light bike isn't only enjoyable on the uphills, it's on the slow technical descents,in the turns,everytime you brake it slows down faster,etc.
  • 3 5
 I'd be interested in knowing how and where you'd save weight to get modern bike down though? I understand that you haven't had issues with things breaking, so maybe 500g on the frame? Lighter (so flexier) longer travel forks? Like a 160mm Fox 32?
  • 5 1
 @nozes: I ride in PNW everything from Oregon to BC everything short of massive gaps and drops. Just finished riding a 25 lb epic evo all around for two years and sold it off with zero qualms ready for another few years at least of hard and fun riding, I don't ride gracefully or smoothly and I'm not a particularly featherweight @5'9" 200lbs. Yes I'm ok with pedaling my 36+ lb coiled status 160 yes were used to it, no it doesn't mean we should accept it, especially on 115-140/120-150 trail bikes.
  • 27 0
 @madmon: I agree. Not even two years ago, the vast majority of readers here voted in a poll that an ideal bike was between 31-33 pounds. Now everyone is telling me 38 pounds is normal. I have a large aluminum bike with a Zeb that’s just under 34 pounds.

But see, you’re not rad anymore unless you’ve got a Zeb instead of a Lyrik, downhill tire casings on both wheels with inserts, and a coil shock. I’m not saying no one needs this stuff. People are heavy, some put out more power, more speed, or lack finesse. But I wonder how much of it has more to do with image and ego than actual needs.
  • 7 0
 @TheR: nail. Head
  • 3 1
 @TheR: Depends on the person and where they are riding. If someone is riding their 170mm Enduro bike around your local town park trails I would say that's ego and/or great internet marketing by the bike industry and media telling them their bike is SICK. If they are pedaling for an hour up a fire road on it and then blasting a chunky 1700ft descent then I'd say they are OK.
  • 5 0
 @yupstate: Yeah, isn’t that what I said? There are people who might need it. I just question how many really do.
  • 12 0
 I just don’t see a world where 38 pounds needs to be the norm.
  • 5 11
flag BarryWalstead (Dec 18, 2023 at 19:23) (Below Threshold)
 @metsrangers35: the fact you're referencing riding an Epic Evo for the past few years is telling.
That is a GREAT XC bike, but a truly old school, terrible trail bike. Like not even close to being in the same league as a modern trail bike.

Tell us you're out of touch, without telling us you're out of touch?
  • 2 3
 @TheR: The grass isn't always greener. I have a 28 lb short travel and a 38 lb steel, coil-shock long travel. I ride the small bike on quick lunch loops from my house, usually at higher tempo. For everything else, and especially the 6,000+ ft backcountry loops, I take the big gun every time. It might be 5% slower to the top of the mountain, but it more than makes up the time on long, remote, and unfamiliar descents.
  • 4 0
 @fentoncrackshell: I don’t know, man. I don’t ride short travel bikes, either. But like I said, I have an aluminum 160 rear/170 front long travel bike under 34 pounds (like 33.8 pounds). It’s a sturdy bike. Before that, I had a carbon Kona Process 153 that was 32.5 pounds. Solid bike. I don’t see why bikes need to be much heavier than that. Thirty-eight pounds seems excessive to me. I can’t think of a situation where I thought, “Man, if only this bike were a little heavier.”

Of course, maybe if you’re talking XL instead of large, that’s a different story. And maybe it would be fine if I were riding the park a lot, but I don’t have problem with DH bikes weighing that much. But there’s no reason bikes you need to pedal should weigh as much as a DH.
  • 5 0
 80% of the rides are uphill.... no, for most people its significantly more than this. Our local descents are all under 2 minutes, some take 30 mins to get to the top of, so we are at the 90/10 ratio at best.

Own a trail bike (I have an older hightower), have the right tyres on it (EXO casing), 27/28lb, steeper head angle and shorter travel, raz the trails, these are amazing bikes. You climb for significantly less time than an enduro bike, descending is more sketchy, you have to be on your toes and for normal trail riding they hammer an enduro bike. Dont expect that trail bike to be an Enduro bike on the descents, it just isnt, its going to be 5-10% slower, 2-4 seconds for us, but a good minute or 2 quicker on the climbs with far less effort.

Own an Enduro bike (I have a full coil nomad), have the right tyres on it (EXO+ or even DH tyres), 32-35lb, ride it up everywhere, its a slug compared to the trail bike but boy does it go downhill, just a quick or quicker on most descents than a Dh bike. If you cant afford or dont have the space for a trail bike, 2 sets of wheels and maybe an air shock change, it takes a few mins and can shed 3-5lb in 10 mins. 2 bikes for the price of 1. Cant be bad.

Own a DH bike, push it up, ride up some parts, it takes forever, it will put the biggest smile on your face on those short rowdy bits of trail, its great for uplifts but for most trails/tracks that enduro bike with big tyres on is just as fast or faster.

Own an E-Bike (unpopular opinion, I have an Orbea wild), buy a couple of batteries, it weighs over 50lb with DH tyres on, pedal it up in eco with pals on enduro bikes, if you all have EEB's then pedal it up on EMTB or Turbo, get to the top in well under 10 mins, do 3x the number of laps the Enduro bike can, rinse 2 batteries. Dream of your Enduro bike and Dh bikes going downhill like the E-bike does, dream of your trail bike climbing like the E-bike does.

Race the Dh bike, love it.
Race the Enduro bike, love it.
Train on the EEB for extra laps, we have no uplift unless we drive 2 hours to Fort William or 4 hours to Innerleithen, our uplift is not that pesky EEB. Dont hate on them, accept them, embrace them, we are seeing so many new trails appear, built by folk with EEBs as they want more and more to ride off the same hills.

Weight... have the right bike for the occasion.
  • 1 5
flag TOOTRIKK (Dec 19, 2023 at 7:26) (Below Threshold)
 Sorry to break it to you but anything less than 35-39lbs is a trail or down-duro bike. m.pinkbike.com/news/enduro-world-cup-bike-weigh-in-courtesy-of-edbull-media-house.html
  • 5 0
 @TOOTRIKK: that mentality is the problem. Firstly, there is a wide world of riding out there, and most people should ride an all-purpose trail bike. Not everywhere is enduro-bike terrain. Secondly, not everyone is racing enduro. We don’t need to justify our riding and bike choice because that’s what a niche group of professional athletes do. Thirdly, that implicit disregard for bikes that are shorter travel is so absurd. More travel does not make you a better rider and it certainly doesn’t make you cooler. I would far rather find myself riding a bike beyond its capabilities at times than find myself almost constantly riding it below its capabilities.
  • 4 0
 @TOOTRIKK: OK? And?

Setting aside for one second the fact none of us are pro enduro racers (or that most of us aren’t enduro racers at all), your comment kind of proves my point. Some of us are riding bikes that fit our needs regardless of how you want to classify these bikes, and some want 38 pound tanks, because otherwise, you’re not Enduro, brah.
  • 3 0
 @Hayek: you are 100% right.
I would far rather find myself riding a bike beyond its capabilities at times than find myself almost constantly riding it below its capabilities.

So many people wear baggies on a high 30's lb enduro bike with EXO+ or Dh tyres on to our latest local trail centre (Tarland), this place is way more fun, and almost every trail is faster on my tallboy than it is on my Nomad. The old Cx bike with V brakes was interesting in the wet. Scariest thing I have ever done haha.
The local epic around there Heartbreak Ridge has a 1 hour challenge, this is pretty simple on the tallboy with some extras thrown in, but difficult on the Nomad, even though the terrain appears more suited to the Nomad and 50m of the trail are significantly easier on the Nomad, the Hightower is still 10 minutes a lap faster around the loop!!!

Over biked for 95% of the loop on the Nomad, even though its a black route.
  • 3 0
 @Hayek: There is nothing wrong with riding a Hardtail, Trail, Downduro, Gravel, or whatever it's all good my man. A properly spec'd enduro bike still weighs 35+ lbs though.
  • 2 1
 @BarryWalstead: tell us you can't read without telling us you can't read.
  • 2 0
 @TheR:
Oh that was beautiful..
  • 3 4
 @TheR: Um then ride a lighter bike? Nobody cares really but if it's lighter than 35lbs just call it what is: a bike that's goes slower than an enduro bike on the fun stuff.
  • 2 0
 @TheR: Arguably the best lift access and pedal best in the world are in Whistler. Let's say you live in Whistler and can only own one bike. How much does it weigh....Probably 35lbs or more.
  • 1 2
 @Hayek: "Firstly, there is a wide world of riding out there, and most people should ride an all-purpose trail bike. Not everywhere is enduro-bike terrain"

I totally agree! However what I still can't see is where people are making a 120-130mm bike KG's lighter than a 160-170mm bike, without spending mega money on exotic light parts. A 120mm trail bike still needs a good gear range, a dropper, tyres that aren't made of paper etc. same as a 170mm bike. Apart from beefing up the frame a little and the extra travel they are basically the same bike. Sure they can be lighter, but the OP is comparing 31lbs (14KG) to 38lb (17KG). where is that 3KG to be saved?
  • 1 0
 @kiksy: what? Still can't see? The stumpy s works frame. has been on sale for like 2k for a year, Just built one up at 29 lbs mix of xt/xtr/slx. Its 65deg with 450+ reach. Modern, aggressive. Light. Other trail bikes can get close to that too.
Only fancy parts are wao+i91/1 wheelset.

Like are y'all just intentionally trolling at this point?
  • 1 0
 @TheR: the trail bike is 31. the enduro/dh bike is 38, with coil sus.
  • 1 0
 @yupstate: The majortiy of people riding ebikes in my local green/blue trails are rocking 170/180 travel. Along with body armor and full faces.
  • 2 0
 In polite company I never broach topics of relgion, politics, finances... or bike weight.
  • 2 0
 @Hayek:

I ride my local trails on hard tails and rigid sometimes at the local group ride. people act like i'm a superstar athelete... it's kind of ridiculous how people think a 20 ft mildly rocky descent is IMPOSSIBLE without 150mm of full suspension and Minions.
  • 2 0
 @TOOTRIKK: A couple things — first and foremost, I said from the jump that yes, there are riders and circumstances that require a heftier build.

Second, I ride a Canfield Lithium. It’s my only bike. I don’t care what you want to call it, but it’s a large aluminum frame with 170mm Zeb up front and 160mm of travel in the back. It’s under 34 pounds. Now maybe a guy like Richie Rude is going to need to beef it up — I don’t know. But that bike isn’t holding me back any. I ride everywhere from one side of Colorado to the next, occasionally in a bike park. Occasionally in Moab. It will hold up fine. Same with my Kona Process 153 before that (32.5 pounds).

If I did most of my daily riding in a bike park like whistler — yes I’d have a heavier bike. It would be a DH bike. Again, as I mentioned in a post above, I have no problem with a DH weighing that much. But if you’re pedaling up and down, I think *most* of us would be better off shaving a pound or two off our bikes.
  • 1 0
 @totaltoads: ok, great. But is this what everyone needs? Maybe? Or is that part of the image? That’s my original question.
  • 1 1
 @TheR: Most people need a 100mm hardtail for their everyday riding. But that isn't sexy. Same reason why people drive 50K trucks and SUVS 20 miles to work, rather than 20K hatchbacks and sedans. Image is everything. And image is far more profitable for the industry.
  • 1 0
 @totaltoads: I say a 100mm hardtail is a bit extreme. The truth probably lies somewhere between that 100mm hardtail and 180mm full suspension. And somewhere between downhill casings with inserts and single-ply XC tires. And stuff like that.
  • 1 1
 @TheR: My point is that just when Performance and Durability are finally getting their proper respect over the industries and consumer's infatuation with weight for the past 3 decades @mikekazimer: had to go and ruin it. YES OBVIOUSLY a light bike is rad and if you can get away with riding one then GO FOR IT. However a "heavy" bike is just fine too.
  • 1 0
 @TheR: Also people who imitate these racers by buying up these huge burly bikes , but can't comprehend that if those same riders came to the average consumers hometowns they would come with a bike fit for the terrain.
  • 1 0
 @TheR: If you have to winch up 3k ft of fire road, you're going to tune out, look at the scenery, or talk to your buddies regardless of where your bike is on the weight weenie spectrum. It's more important to have a supportive, efficient climbing platform, and there are lots of big bikes that climb very well.
  • 1 0
 @metsrangers35: 100% not trolling. Up until recently I was riding a 130mm trail bike (ali), carbon wheels , true it was coil but it had normal tyres etc. There's just not way I could get it to 29lbs (13kg). It was 15Kg ish.

I think the example of your bike is probably epic to ride! I'm 100% not against light bikes, and agree that lighter bikes ride better!

But a S-Works XT/XTR build I would class as 'fancy' components personally.

That's high end stuff.

How much would a aluminum m Deore style build weigh? This is what most people are after.
  • 1 0
 @fentoncrackshell: And there are lots of big bikes that don’t weigh 38 pounds. Mine is one of them. Why weigh yourself down unnecessarily? It doesn’t have to be that way for so many of us.
  • 2 0
 @nozes: plus it gets you more descent since climbing is less effort. There's a tradeoff in choosing bulkiness of bike between quantity and quality of descent. For many, a bigger bike won't help much where they ride on the descent. These people should choose a lighter bike. Others get rewards from having a heavy, hard hitting bike so thats where their optimization lands. There's different bikes but riders and terrain are different.
  • 41 0
 Bringing back the old hucking from a rooftop seems like a very clever conspiracy to make people snap frames at a faster pace and that way clear the inventory... nice one bike industry
  • 31 2
 Ripton releases performance denim pants in JNCO style with 50 inch leg openings and pockets big enough to carry 2L of Mountain Dew
  • 5 0
 No more hip packs, in-frame storage, or EDC tools needed - just put on pair of Ripton JNCO's, fill your pockets, and shred!
  • 29 3
 This list makes a hell of a lot more sense the henry's. If PB looses another Mike they are doomed.
  • 7 20
flag DoubleCrownAddict (Dec 18, 2023 at 20:04) (Below Threshold)
 Henry's list was a bunch of poorly written BS that he pulled out of his ass. He is not a journalist he's a pretentious Brit troll. Mike referencing him here to give him more clicks is truly pathetic. I agree about Levy but Pinkbike will never be doomed. It's the comment section that makes Pinkbike what it is and they will never change that.
  • 7 2
 @DoubleCrownAddict: "It's the comment section that makes Pinkbike what it is and they will never change that"

I'm sure the Pinkbike staff appreciate you setting the bar so low in that case
  • 4 1
 @dunnem8: I mean hes not fully wrong
  • 3 4
 You're not wrong. There is a lack of real journalism on this site. It could be more thoughtful, relatable, and fun. A lot of the content is too much about idiosyncratic rabbit holes that only someone in the bike industry cares about, and even then, its usually vapid and lacking substance. Don't even get me started on the comments section.
  • 1 1
 @cougar797: No but I think his type of comments constantly bitching and ripping into the guys who are creating the content and resorting to pathetic name calling is not what "makes Pinkbike"
  • 1 1
 @dunnem8: yeah it is, and it makes it better. I bet Henrys next article will be better written and researched, if he doesn't get fired like he should be. I even gave him some pointers about developing a thesis and table of contents before you start writing. I'm all about constructive criticism which will lead to a better reading experience for all of us.
  • 21 0
 The Scott Ransom and Firebird were so good, so capable at reasonable weights, and I would love to get back to owning one. I agree that weight matters and tires are the worst of it, I will pay the penalty to run DH casings rather than rim inserts.
  • 12 0
 I finally gave up on tire inserts this year due to the hassle of installation and removal. Just went to a DH tire for the rear with a little more PSI and it's fine.
  • 8 0
 I'm still running my 2019 Ransom 910 with an aluminum rear triangle, a coil shock, Zeb, 220mm rotors, and DH casing tires. It weighs 35.2 lb in size XL. It's a better bike for my riding at this weight than it was stock at 32 lb even.
  • 1 0
 I ride my Switchblade all over the place and have rarely felt underbiked. I think it's the sweet spot.
  • 1 0
 @stalkinghorse: my switchblade is nice but socal is alot of huck to flat and rocky rough, when i was a better rider it was the sweet spot, now i could use a bit more mechanical advantage.

just removed my coil and put an x2 air on there and its an improvement
  • 17 0
 2024 will be a holding pattern for a lot of companies. Maybe 2025 will see an influx of new ideas?
  • 14 5
 30lb race rigs yes less pivots no crazy high pivots long chains, less is more
  • 6 2
 Im sat looking at an epic HT that weighs 20lbs wondering who rides 30lb monsters :-) edit then realised i compared an apple and a pumpkin
  • 6 0
 I still have that ransom (aluminium one) and don't know when I am going to change this.
I've ridden bunch of new '23 models recently and haven't found much progress in terms of performance in comparison to Ransom. And what is more it is ligther (with EXO+/DD tires) of most of brand new top-tier carbon bikes. After 2018-2020 revolution in geo bikes are geting very little better every year in performance downhill but definitelly heavier...
  • 4 0
 The geo is still pretty reasonable too.

::posted from my 2020 Ransom::
  • 15 9
 The weight portion of this matters! 35 lb enduro bikes are a little ridiculous, especially at 5,000 usd. We will have to weight it out to see if 30lb enduro bikes are coming back.
  • 16 11
 Spoken like someone who doesn't race Enduro! More sprung weight means a smoother ride, and the other bits mean durability to actually make it through a season.
  • 9 0
 Currently my Transition Sentinel, built with carbon wheels, cranks, and factory components is a hair off of 39lbs. Would be happy with a 35lb bike at this point haha
  • 8 1
 I would argue that 35lb enduro bikes are miss-categorized: they’re really single crown dh bikes these days…

I do love light weight bikes though, sub-30lbs was one of my requirements for my trail bike , that I bought last year…

Weighting for lite bikes is an enduro-ing quality…
  • 16 1
 @adamweld: 100%. Nothing's slower in a race than breaking your bike or flatting.
  • 14 3
 @adamweld: spoken like someone who doesn’t pedal uphill Wink
  • 1 0
 @TEAM-ROBOT: Very uncommon to break a bike frame while racing aside from a huge crash. Have broken a couple of aluminum bikes sending drops though.
  • 5 0
 @ChanceFuller: That has to be the alloy version, right? Some brands are definitely guilty of not putting much effort into their alloy models.
  • 8 1
 @dualsuspensiondave: I've broken frames, wheels, shocks, brakes, pedals, cranks, seats, derailleurs, chains, chainrings, chainguides, and a million flat tires while racing and I will never buy the "light version" of any of those products ever again. Making those parts more durable will almost certainly require making them heavier, and I'm happy to take that weight penalty if it means making it to the bottom of the hill more often. YMMV
  • 1 0
 @shapethings: the alloy version and they forgot to make the tubes hollow, by the sound of it
  • 5 0
 It really does feel like the current designs and tech have kind of plateaued. Ya, there's always small changes or improvements however the new bikes aren't much different than 3-4 year old bikes. Good for the consumer as there's not many reasons to upgrade right now for marginal gains imo. I have a few bikes and I have no reason to upgrade any of them to a newer model, ranging from 2018 to a 2023. It will be interesting to see what the mfr's do to try and spike interest in buying new bikes, I think we'll see ebikes and the tech with them change the most in the near future, whether people like it or not.
  • 3 0
 Yes, I'm loving that MTB development has plateaued. Let the industry sell electric gears and suspension or high pivots to those who like that kind of thing. I'm going to keep the same bikes and spend the money on taking them nice places to ride instead. Unless I buy an eeb Big Grin
  • 5 1
 Kaz dropped a big clue, and few of you picked up on it.

The Scott Ransom (still) makes a killer starting point for a super capable-yet lightweight bike.

That's not fragile. If Brendog isn't breaking them, chances are you won't be.

The current frame is the same as Kaz's 2019. It's mullet ready with the flip chip.

But when Scott decides to update the Ransom and go "integrated" like they've done on the Genius and Spark, the lightweight days will be over.

I've built up a best of everything dream machine starting with a 2020 Euro model Ransom LTD HMX frameset, and every single nut, bolt, lever, saddle was a carefully chosen balance of performance, weight and durability.

The final weight tally? 27.6 lbs, which is ridiculous for a bike that slays it so well.

I've stopped riding every other bike in the quiver, because this much capacity for rowdy, at that little weight, makes it a super manageable trail bike too.

You can whine about the slightly slack seat tube angle and taller than the latest trend seat tube, yet there was plenty of adjustment in the saddle rails for me, plus I'm running a 180mm dropper with room for 200.
  • 2 0
 > That's not fragile. If Brendog isn't breaking them, chances are you won't be.

To be fair, if Brendog was breaking them, we wouldn’t know about it. (In other words, I doubt that /content/ would make it into his video lest he upset one of his major sponsors)
  • 1 0
 you've posted about your absolutely nutso genius... let's see the ransom!
  • 5 2
 I appreciate the idea of weight reduction.
Years ago after riding primarily DH, lift assist and shuttle rides. I thought I wanted a really light weight trail bike (relative to my dh bike and my budget). Then I got a 150mm trail bike and liked how it pedaled, but since I am a bit of a Clydesdale and like riding aggressively, I couldn't get past how flexy the bike was. I ended up selling it after a year and building up a Gen II Nomad with burlier than Santa Cruz's stock builds and I never looked back. Yes, I ended up with a heavy bike, and yes I have to work harder to pedal around with my buddies on shorter travel bikes, but the confidence and fun on the down hills is worth it to me. Your mileage may vary.

I found that "never skip leg day" has helped me deal with a heavier bike.
  • 8 1
 The weight arguments always have to be in conjunction with cost
  • 8 0
 And durability
  • 2 0
 @Red-October: Yeah. While I can definitely see on the high end a swing back to lighter bikes, the low end of the MTB segment has gotten so good and durable. And the penalty there is weight. Maybe there will be some trickle down but that's a big segment that I think will always carry extra weight for those who can't, or don't want to, spend big bucks on a mountain bike.
  • 4 1
 I think it's just what you get used to...I used to pedal a 35+lber up so I could bomb on the downhill and then bought a 6x6" enduro style that weighed 9lbs less...and thought...well dang this is awesome. but I was probably stronger when I had to throw the big boy around.
  • 3 1
 do you still "throw the big bwoy around" or are you riding the 6by6?
  • 1 0
 @madmon: sold it to buy a guitar :-)
  • 2 0
 @preach: hooe it was a Les Paul
  • 8 3
 Just when I thought people were cool with aluminum again... weight matters now. Damnit.
  • 16 2
 dont worry they can still make lightweight things with aluminium,
  • 2 0
 Carbon frames seem to be heavy these days. My aluminium Reign is about 35lbs with a coil shock, boat anchor wheels, double down tyres and a NX cassette. If it was kitted out like an $8k 35lb carbon bike it would be around 31lbs.
  • 1 0
 carbon has more bragging rights than alloy every will
  • 6 0
 Yes to all this, especially weight.
  • 4 1
 Weight never stopped to matter. Maybe it was not that important when it comes to frames, but I'm sure that the majority of us considered weight as a major factor when buying a new wheelset, tires or a fork.
  • 2 1
 Every time I've placed an emphasis on saving weight when buying a component, I've quickly regretted it. Usually by breaking the item in question.
  • 1 0
 @VtVolk: do you have a specific example? For me it was mostly just more money I had to spend on parts, but they would last. I'm not fan of crazy light parts, but if I'm in the market for a wheelset, durability and weight are the things I compare (e.g. DT 1900 vs 1700 series)
  • 2 1
 @kage17: yeah, wheels, tires, handlebars, and saddles. With the exception of handlebars, I made each mistake more than once. To be fair, these weren’t all the most high-end expensive choices, so I take responsibility. Pick any two, and all.
  • 2 0
 Enduro is some form is accessible to pretty much any rider, and they will buy the same (expensive) bike as the pro. Free riding is just not an option for a huge part of the bike-buying market, typically the part with all the money.
  • 2 0
 Everyone I see on a 10K pro level bike is like 55 and riding blues in the bike park, or greens at the XC local trails. Freeride was all about affordable 2K 180mm bikes that weighed 45lbs for the 15-25 age bracket. Those bikes don't exist anymore. And that crowd is riding dirt jumpers now because it's all they can afford.
  • 2 0
 Wieght matters on the downhill too! I hate trying to jib around on a 40 pound enduro sled, and as I'm not trying to push any limits, I find the lighter all mountain bikes more fun on steep terrain too, makes it more exciting whilst still being comfortable!
  • 2 0
 DH is exciting to watch but requires hills with lifts, which immediately limits participation and locations. Enduro makes more sense as a relatable/aspirational sport because it is an extension of what so many weekend warriors like to do: ratchet and plummet at their local hills.

If Enduro events had shorter stages, they would be easier for fans to attend (not spread out over a large distance), races would be quicker paced, and events could be held in more locations and more frequently. It would probably be a bit easier to record on video and compile highlights too. If there is no easy way to share it visually with people, it will be difficult to build a following.
  • 2 0
 My issue with Enduro events is that they are multi-day affairs with 6 hour drives from where I live. XC races however, are half of a single weekend day, and a 2 hour drive max usually for me. A lot more accessible. So I race XC, and given up any ideas of doing an enduro race.
  • 5 3
 Thank you for acknowledging Ride to the Hills! I still re-watch it a few times every year. It is the unequivocally the best mountain bike film ever made and quietly influenced more in our sport than most will ever know.
  • 8 7
 I'm okay with the weight, if it means that my bike can take whatever abuse comes up on the trail I happen upon that day. This wasn't always the case in previous years.

The last bike I had that weighed 30 pounds (or maybe just over that), had to be thrown in the trash basically, as it started to crack over all the place.
  • 4 0
 1000-gram tires that are as tough and supportive as DH tires without the weight?

yes
  • 1 0
 are you willing to pay $300 for a single tire?

Pros get 180tpi casings for XC. But they aren't for sale because they'd cost $200 each.
  • 1 0
 @totaltoads: Considering I paid 150 (CAD) for a tanwall which got me 10 rides before a tear, maybe!
  • 1 0
 @jesse-effing-edwards: Tanwall are well known to be less durable than blackwall.
  • 6 0
 #makebikeslightagain
  • 1 0
 I totally agree trail/enduro bikes need to get lighter. My custom 29er Optic is 32lbs all in and super capable but i am missing my old 27.5 140mm “all mountain” sub 30lbs. It wasnt as fast and capable on the steeps but overall it was faster and could handle the same trails.
  • 1 0
 So go buy a used 27.5 140mm. Vote with your wallet for what you want.

If you didn't want a 32lb Optic, why did you buy it?
  • 3 2
 What up with everyone wanting

Longer dropper post
bigger brakes
more suspension
Stronger tires
Stronger wheels

unless tech changes ALL THIS STUFF ADDS WEIGHT!

Don't try to bring the light E-bike in the market. Because what's really happening is PM are throwing none E-bike parts on "light e-bikes" and they break the parts. The brands just want to show these numbers and think its the new slice of bread. But you cant ride the bike as intended without replacing it with more burley parts.

Stop eating up these false numbers of "light e-bikes" Mike K. Don't just test it for 1 month and be confident bikes can be lighter on a whim. Just because it's a few pounds heavier doesn't mean you're going to ride it the same as your Amish machine. On the contrary you will ride it more because of the assist. Let's do the Math

More riding = More fatigue
More Fatigue = Failure at some point

Seen this already with all the locals riding Orbea Rise, forestals, levo SL

You better than that Mike K. I know there needs to be a balance but everyone wants a unicorn pony but its
not practical....
  • 3 0
 I agree with you that all this parts add weight and in total this makes the difference. But I also do think that there are some parts that are over-engineered and I think Kaz wanted to point out that there is potential. He didn't say you should ride parts that do not last.
  • 1 0
 because it makes them feel like their pp is bigger

so many people seem to get off on telling you how 'aggressive' they are and how they break every part/bike they have... esp youtubers...
  • 1 0
 "I feel like the timing is right for an old-school freeride revival. If events like Yoann Barelli's Tour de Gnar are any indication"
I hope not, whilst the event is cool, the content creators and "normalizing" these features represent the biggest increase in risk the sport will see.
  • 1 0
 I think that ship has sailed long ago.
  • 1 0
 But why are bikes getting heavier? Honest question. Is it because there's some new carbon layup method that is cheaper, but maintains the same durability but sacrifices weight? And companies are switching to that method to save cash? Or are bikes just that much longer/larger? Maybe a slight increase in size of everything (pedals, 31.8, stanchion diameter, larger brakes, etc) just adds up? I used to ride a first gen carbon Patrol that was sub 30lbs. Why can't we do that anymore?
  • 1 1
 Because marketing trends. You don't need a lightweight bike either. Unless the marketing convinces you you do.
  • 1 0
 A Continental Argotal and Kryptotal Enduro SUPERSoft would be in that 1000gr. tire category. A dropper post weighing 250gr. less than a Vecnum Nivo? That's probably never gonna happen. A stiff and light Enduro Fork? Intend's gonna fix that for us.
  • 1 0
 The lightweight revolution is starting. I recently discovered that Maxxis now makes a Rekon in Exo+. The 29 x 2.6 is a real-world 890g. Basically, an XC tire with an enduro casing. A blend of lightish weight, and better durability. If only they didn't cost $$$
  • 1 0
 I've never paid more than $50 for a maxxis tire. they go on sale all the time.
  • 1 0
 @totaltoads: Must be the ones I like that don't ever go on sale. That Rekon is routinely $80, and the Forekaster I like up front costs a couple of bucks more than that.
  • 2 0
 @FatTonyNJ:

I bought Forekasters for $35 a year ago. I have a rekon 2.6 EXO+ I paid 50 at REI for. Just set up a price alert on google.
  • 1 0
 @totaltoads: I'm gonna have to - the EXO+ Rekon in 29X2.6 is on REI right now.... for $106
  • 1 0
 My journey. Riding MTB in New England since 1987 so I started fully rigid and had a 25lb bike at one point.
Jumped on the full sus bandwagon as soon as it started. Fast forward to 2015 and I jumped on the long low and slack thing with a transition patrol. Loved that bike. Probably 35lbs.
Then I moved from Boston to LA for a while and was faced with long slugging gravel fire road climbs. Yes the patrol was fun on the way down but those climbs in the socal heat were brutal. So I bought a Santa Cruz chameleon carbon hardtail and got it down to 25 lbs with 2.3 tires and 120mm fox 34. For two years I would ride both bikes off and on. Loved them both. Fast forward a few years and I am back in Boston. I did not think I would like the hardtail on all the chinky tech we have here and our climbs are not that long. But the opposite happened. I sold my full sus to buy nobl wheels at 1600g and I am 195 lbs loaded up. Rode the light hardtail everywhere with my buddies on full sus. But now comes the interesting part. Since I sold my full sus I was riding the hardtail hard. I found the fox 34 flexy after bumping it to 140mm and probably due to the stiff carbon wheels. And I started to get flats i the rear. So I bumped up to a 36mm fork (ohlins ) and thicker casings (kryptotal enduro). Now I have my perfect bike for New England. Except for shuttle days where the hardtail is a bit harsh. I’ll likely buy a full sus that I will not bother to make super light for the big days. A mini dh I can pedal. But the reality for me is that I was previously riding a patrol on my local trails and it was overkill. I have way more fun and almost as fast as my full sus. And I only miss the big bike a handful of times per year.

Bottom line if you can. Try a super light bike and see what breaks or needs upgrades and you will likely end up in a sweet spot for your trails. Also note how my socal setup was necessarily different than my New England setup.
  • 7 5
 I'd far rather ride my current 35lb enduro bike than the 32lb & 30lb bikes I had in the same bracket before it. Both up and down hill.
  • 3 0
 Can't wait to 50/50 a skinny with a $375 derailleur. At least I can carry a spare in my downtube snack box!
  • 2 0
 My old 2019 Stumpjumper comp alloy 33lbs(considered heavy then) 140/150 had a 66.5 degree head angle, It never felt like going OTHB even going fast down steep terrain.
  • 4 0
 110% here for more hucks and skinnies again. long live freeride
  • 1 0
 I expect these to be pretty spot on. I’ve noticed on my lbs sales floor that people don’t care nearly as much about slacker geo than what you’d guess from the internet’s opinions.
  • 4 0
 Outside will continue to find new and creative ways to ruin Pinkbike
  • 3 0
 I am still in the "Weight doesn't matter" camp when it comes to enduro type bikes.
  • 2 0
 I'm curious why you're not still on the Ransom. I still love my 2020. The weight. The climbing mode. The geo & suspension performance.
  • 3 0
 Because it's 'old'.

I have a 2018 Banshee that I get endless comments on about 'why are riding such an old bike, I upgrade mine every 2 years, are you poor or something?'

riding an old bike makes you look uncool in the majority of mtbers eyes.
  • 4 0
 You misspelled Champery
  • 5 1
 Enduro is fucking dead
  • 5 0
 I knew it was going to die as soon as all the bike brand marketing departments started claiming the death of the DH bike
  • 3 0
 @luckynugget: I thought it was when Chris Ball sold out to the UCI.
  • 1 0
 @ReformedRoadie: sorry I don't speak Raceist
  • 2 1
 "Weight starts to matter again" wait what!? It always mattered way too much imo, and that myth is slowly being undone now. I think you are calling it too early tbh
  • 1 0
 Oh finally, somebody at Pinkbike is noticing that a decade plus long obsession with bigger is better as produced uber-expensive monsters that weight as much a light e-MTB.
  • 1 0
 I’m not replacing my 2020 custom built SB150 for a reason (13,4kg / 29,5 lbs)….seriously, 95% of us don’t need a 38mm fork nor 170mm of travel. Make bikes light again
  • 1 0
 i am a total weight wheeny. my madonna has a carbon bar and bottle cage. every gramm counts
  • 4 5
 My local shuttle drivers are all becoming weak pathetic losers that cannot lift proper 37 LBS DH bike from 2018... Make 45 LBS DH rigs again so those sissies can grow some muscles Big Grin
  • 3 3
 My prediction is DH fizzles some because of much lower viewer ratings. Nobody really wants to pay
$10-15/month to watch so few events.
  • 1 0
 No changes in geo as no one is bringing new bikes out until they get their stock levels dorted
  • 1 0
 I predict the holiday give aways are forever gone. Paywall coming in like a wrecking ball
  • 2 0
 I hope the Re-emergence of freeride comes with the return of small wheels.
  • 1 0
 All those comments carrying about weight and me riding a 18kg steel bike and pedaling a lot with and don't give a fuck
  • 2 0
 Hi Mike would you still consider riding your old 2019 Scott Ransom today?
  • 3 2
 I predict no Advent Calendar AGAIN in 2024.
  • 1 0
 You mean:we'll just have to WEIGHT and see what the future holds
  • 1 1
 That 30.2 pound Scott probably broke a year or two back, like my old 13.6kg carbo Enduro did after a couple of years.
  • 3 0
 The Ransoms seem pretty strong. I've seen a lot of them ridden hard and haven't seen a failure. Sure, broken ones must exist, but not at a significant number.
  • 2 1
 As a heavier rider (105kgs) i prefer things to get stronger not lighter.
  • 1 0
 spot on imp
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