Pinkbike Poll: Which Mountain Bike Standards Should Stick Around?
Super Boost and Centerlock - you can tick those squares off on your standards bingo card.
2020 was actually a fairly quiet year when it comes to standards in the mountain bike world. There weren't any new axle widths, no new bottom bracket types or crank spindle diameters, and other than a few forks popping up with 1.8” tapered steerer tubes there actually weren't that many standards-related reasons to angrily hammer away at the keyboard.
I'm sure someone out there is currently scribbling away on plans for a new pedal spindle design that's lighter, stiffer, stronger, and of course, not backwards compatible, but until that sees the light of day it's worth taking a moment to appreciate the fact that things seemed to have settled down slightly. There's nothing wrong with new standards when they make sense – I don't have any desire to ever go back to quick release skewers – but I can also understand the frustration that results when changes are made that seem like they were made just to add inconvenience rather than delivering a substantial performance benefit.
Now, just because we didn't see that many new standard pop up doesn't mean there aren't already too many in existence, which was the inspiration for this week's poll. Imagine you're designing your dream bike from scratch. What standards would you go with? A threaded bottom bracket or pressfit? A 148mm rear axle, or maybe 135mm for a little extra clearance? And up front, do you miss the days of forks with 20mm thru-axles, or is 15mm good enough?
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555 Comments
That's always the way, right?
That said, short CS's do make sense on small bicycles.
I very much would prefer my frame to come with threaded BB standard - but the Wheels Mfg solution is good enough to where I can happily live with that.
Change is bad, baaaaddd. Except when it's good. ????
This stuff shouldn’t be dictated by clueless reviewers, consumers, and shit mechanics.
chrisking.com/collections/bottom-brackets/products/bottom-bracket-threadfit-30
wheelsmfg.com/bottom-brackets/threaded-bb/threaded-to-30mm-angular-contact-bb-black.html
I must live a big ass bubble.
Also No need to be rude about it, everybody has their own opinions, when we get all barbaric like you, its gives Mtbers a bad name
Also calling Dirt Jumpers "Tiny, Niche" probably means, you've never ridden one. Too bad, your missing out on all the fun.
Your probably one of those Mtbers who takes everything seriously and never sees the fun in the sport
Haven’t installed the new fork yet but hoping the extended ATC won’t make it too wonky. Good thing I like slack bikes. It will have super short reach but it’s just a banger bike for fun. But I wonder if a shorter travel 27.5 would offer better ATC if I could find one with straight steer and brake posts.
I just did a fork swap on a ‘95 Cannondale F700, as the original Headshok suspension was no longer repairable. Only fork I could find to put on it was a RockShox Recon Silver, as it had both disc brake and v-brake posts, and I wanted to keep using a set of XTR V-brakes on it (for reasons of nostalgia and weight savings). After modifying a headset adapter with a hacksaw and a bit of sweat, everything turned out awesome, and the bike performs better than it ever did in its quarter century existence.
So I’m a bike whore. I have 4 26” bikes at the moment. There’s a few 29ers in there too. If you can find 26 forks easily let me know I’d buy two if I could find them. Shit finding non boost stuff is becoming a pain in the ass. It’s still fun to go play with my old 26” stuff but there is honestly zero comparison between them and my modern 29ers, I guess I shouldn’t say zero, they both are squishy and have knobby tires.
Two of the 26” bikes I’ve had for close to 20 years. And will have them for as far in the future I can see. The others I’ve had less time. The one 96 steel specialized bike rockhopper was my first “nice” bike I saved up and bought. All of my bikes have came from my own hard work. I’d love to find a 2000 Sid XC to put on that bike. But finding a rim brake qr fork is damn near impossible.
Good luck hunting!
1.5" steer tube - Easier to make a straight tube. Less headset confusion since the top and bottom bearing can be the same.
24mm crank spindle - This provides the largest ball bearings for use with....
T47 BB - threaded like BSA but bigger, allowing for bigger ball bearings and more bearing options.
Now we have the “Stiffmeister” and new 1.8 tapered forks doing what 1.5 already did 15 years ago.
You forgot to add:
20mm axle - For better stiffness when the mtb industry finally moves to the correct way to make forks (aka inverted forks, and dual crown for dh and enduro aplications)
Rear axles are wtv as long as it's standard
For the spindle one could argue that the 30mm spindle is superior in terms of stiffness/weight. On the other hand the bearing is probably a little heavier and bigger OD. Hard to tell which one is better, I think you can get both pretty equal in terms of weight and durability if the right bearing is chosen.
T47 is no heavier than the PF30 with threadfit or BBInifite one piece you suggested unless its a Carbon PF30. You can convert a PF30 to a T47 BB, if its metal, by using a T47 tap.
wheelsmfg.com/blog/what-is-a-t47-bottom-bracket.html
If you stick to 1.5” on a normal frame, it means we cannot slacken shit out brah
But I’m not sure the advantages of all that outweigh a 24mm with better bearings.
Pressfit could have been nice but the industry is giving a shit about tolerances therefore it failed. Only because of this t47 makes "sense"
If we take the bigger diameter tubes can be made thinner for the same strength argument then we can claw back some of the weight. If the industry is putting a lot of research into 35mm, 36 mm and 38mm seals (forks) then why not standardise a dropper tube standard that allows the industry to take advantage of that? 35 mm means the same tubes, bushings and seal that are used for forks might be able to be used in dropper posts and if not at least the R&D and lessons learnt can be applied to dropper posts.
Aggregate though, maybe a dropper is the right place to save weight over a wheels, suspension, and brakes?
For a light dude who may not have much fat to lose I get looking to the bike but many complain about bike weight and do not have any sense of self awareness.
Two questions about 34.9 ID seat tubes:
-Does that mean I have to put the front mech straight on the post? Where does the frame go?
-Can I insert my Reign into a Slash and baby Rashes?
No further questions, apart from why the f*ck have they invented 34.9 ID STs, obviously.
Low standover + tall rider = larger diameter dropper
Though he admits in third paragraph it's also for looks.
What happened to the dirty finger method? It can still work with singlespeed
Every time I buy a new rim I have to grab my goddamn drill and a 8mm bit so I don't have to mess with that outdated noodle roadie sh*t presta valve.
It's off my chest, thanks for listening.
www.pinkbike.com/news/sram-announces-new-hub-standards-boost-148-and-110-2015.html
m.pinkbike.com/news/Prototype-29-DH-Bike-From-KHS-2014.html
How much is the bike industry marketing bullsheet and how much has data and research to back it up? I may not like the answer but I am asking the question.
Any engineers in the comments?
But I agree. Usually very things in life are just clearly better for everything. Most of these standards are likely the same way. You gain something (stiffness), but trade away bearing life (or something else).
Would be nice to get more engineering responses about what is likely “best” for most scenarios. I’d find that very interesting.
I’m not quite as cynical about it, but I get your point.
That said, bikes have improved, and there have been many incremental improvements.
Thru axles are just better, micro spline and XD offer a wider range of gear ratios (9-10t small gears vs the 11t of HG), shocks have more bushing overlap, frames are stiffer, and generally things are breaking less.
Not to mention geo changes.
So I don’t think it’s all “just because it’s different and I can sell something new”. Although that’s totally a thing as well.
But yeah, 24mm/BSA threaded.
Crank spindles -car engines use 24 mm drive shafts - why do more?
Down with press fit - period
Everyone is engineering more flex into their bars after we went to 35 mm - the industry created a problem they then had to solve...............
Boost was enough..........
Pinkbike you forgot the 1 inch headset on a steel frame -bring back the MAG 20 TI !
Agreed if it could be executed correctly. That’s the issue. Hambini has a great discussion of BSA versus press fit.
^^ this. There is nothing wrong with press fit in itself, it's used everywhere. It's just the biking industry failing to make bb shells with proper alignment and diameter.
Would still love to hear if anyone has a justification for 30mm beyond what pbuser said. If that's the case then 30mm cranks are really just for xc bikes. I definitely don't care about a few grams for steel cranks on my 35lb 150mm travel rig especially if it means replacing my bb more often.
I only recently got centerlock on a road bike and I was so shocked by its simplicity I just don't wan something else ever.
Edit: That wasn't supposed to be a pun
Though I think you're underestimating the cost difference between simply stamping/cutting a sheet of steel vs the same thing in addition to forging a centerlock spider and connecting it to that sheet of metal.
Now everybody take turns throwing a punch at the strawman!
“Only downside” You are paying three times as much for something that is barely any better. I’d say that’s a pretty big downside. Not only that, the cassette design is so poor that even a mid range GX cassette is absurdly expensive rather than just the top end weight weenie shit. Manufacturing capability is a huge part of any good design. Clearly SRAM has been hiring artists, not engineers.
That garbaruk cassette looks awesome. It used the same philosophy as an XD cassette: all the first 11 cogs are machined out of one piece, and only contacts the freehub at the very end. Only limitation with that one is that it has an 11t small cog.
Example: majority answered' 15 x110 mm boost front hub ' '12x148 mm rear hub'.
I can't ride downhill on a 15mm axle(boost) or 12x148mm. What is this 148 mm rear hub spacing, just get the 12x150 mm.
What's the big deal... it's only 2 mm's difference.
12x150 has proven to be a great standard . It's been around for 13 years or more.
Nobody had issues or what so ever. Totally just a rip off 'New better standards'.
Everything is getting more expensive, and you get just a bit better bike parts.
BUT the price is 50 % higher or at least 30 %.
Sram XD driver as an example. Cassettes are 3 times more expensive then the Shimano ones.
For the price i expect 3 times better performance, which is not there.
The bike industry should have just used the DH sizes for Enduros, 20x110 and 12x150 non-boost. Forget about all these in between sizes.
Translation: “XD cassettes are expensive because they are poorly designed”
Admittedly I don’t have them at the moment, but they’re so nice when you do.
In 13yrs if dh it has never happened to me, but I’m sure now it will.
Also, if you're riding DH, you're likely at park or shuttling. in a 50-mi back country loop, the stakes would be different.
141x9 QR boost rear hub
9mm QR fork with 1.5" straight tube
Knock block or something similar
Press-fit BB (naturally)
Triple chainring cranks
17mm inner rims with 2.35 tires
380 mm reach on size large
external dropper with cable that moves with the shaft
70 degrees HT
60 degrees ST
Shimano Dual Controls
Specialized shock with brain thingy
High standover.
I actually like them, but Gripshift would make some people moan.
I also have a Ritchey Ascent from 2016 rigid steel 650b/700c compatible adventure/commuter bike built up with flat bars. It has Race Face Ride cranks w/ 24mm spindle, External Bearings and a threaded bottom bracket.
All the rest of my bikes have square taper cranks and they all have BSA Threaded Bottom Brackets. Press Fit seems like a nightmare.
I've never ridden a bike with boost axles. I do understand how it can help with bike design and wheel strength. If bike pricing ever comes down out of the stratosphere, I might get a newer type of bike. But, all the bikes I have are fun to ride and make me happy.
This is one bike with boost spacing F/R that I can see myself buying: www.breezerbikes.com/bikes/adventure/thunder/thunder - Seems like a reasonably priced build and it can be upgraded with a suspension fork.
to be fair, the industry cannot cater to a guy with only 30 year old bikes.
I should be able to to to any brands website, type in the year and model, and they should have a PDF I can download where it's says "GXP press fit BB, 1 1/8th steerer, 148 rear spacing, 110 front spacing"
For all their flaws, I thought Pole had a decent solution for that with their Evolink's having a sticker on the downtube. Doesn't have all the information, but I think it's pretty practical. If you're really concerned about a bike's look, take off the sticker.
www.pinkbike.com/photo/14645406
Hmm let's see.
Very simply 6 bolts that you can remove with even the cheapest multi tool,
or a huge splined nut that you can only remove if you have a wrench..
Jup, 6 bolts all day baby.
I do appreciate the argument that fewer specialized tools would be nice, but I'm happy with them if it makes specific tasks easier or quicker. Like the cassette tool. I typically bring both while traveling, but not on typical rides.
Also: what about valves? Why do we have Schrader on suspension and (most people) have Presta on wheels?
I think Valves are just a something companies came up with to get more money out of buyers. What better way to make someone buy something then making is 100% necessary. A cheap shock pump will set you back 10-15 bucks, whilst a cheap presta pump is anywhere from 20-50 bucks
One big change that I could see as realistic is the potential drop in prices -- If frame and component standards didn't change as often, would that drive the demand and price down? If so, would that open up the sport to a more diverse group of riders in regard to socioeconomic status? Could this then provide a greater pool of qualified, capable, and enthusiastic individuals who could then help push the industry forward?
Full disclosure -- I'm not an expert on any of this, I just had some random thoughts and ideas. I'm curious to see if anything I just rambled on about makes sense to anyone else.
Centerlock, threaded BB. straight 1.5 superboost and 20x110 have more benefits than others.
A good standard should be one that has more pros than cons. I hate these mediocre half ass solution. If something needs to be improve, let's improve it for real not just 1%
I've had no problems with current BSA and 24mm dia spindles but I'm wanting to try newer cranks with 30mm dia spindles. I'm not stoked about the current BSA and 30mm spindle combo especially with available space due to limited outer dia I have as I want my ISCG mounted guide
While the often quoted notion, sometimes in defense of new standards, "modern bikes are much better than some years ago because of many improvements" bla bla is very true, I would like to know, is the jump from 142 to 148 rear really that relevant after all? Or is it mainly the geo, better suited components for the riding style, ...? in a thorough study it should be possible to single out important and not so important parameters.
Meanwhile I'm off buying the latest and greatest I can afford, just like everybody else
Dropper posts are getting 200+mm travel. Therefore 34.9mm dia please
148mm rear hub seems like a good balance between 29 wheel spoke angle and heel clearance.
Press fit BB's can creak, keep it threaded for now.
Centrelock rotors are just higher tech with the aluminum core, have better heat dissipation, and less prone to bending from impacts.
XD driver is a dogs breakfast with combination of slots and threads. Shimano microspline is cheaper and simpler to make, and offers a 10t cog.
Steerer tube diameter has no effect on what stem lenght you can use.
Larger straight head tubes allow the use of equal bearings top and bottom, and also allow the use of larger headset cups for adjustment.
Unless your stem positions the handlebar directly above the steertube axis, steertube diameter absolutely restricts how short a stem you can go.
Just like a 35mm handlebar also limits how short a stem can be.
>BSA BB by decisive margin
Safe to say majority of respondents aren't mechanics. All BSA30 adapters are garbage for durability...The threads are paper thin and cups can deform over time. This is where T47 comes in as the final solution. There is no excessive thinning of the shell wall and you can fit nice big oversize bearings.
i've been riding Mt. bikes before they were called mt. bikes and none of that is even remotely interesting to me .
If it rolls and has good brakes , i'm happy. ????
As for the standards, I agree with killuminatus. These polls are pointless.
1. Boost spacing, I have nice wheels, I had nice non-boost wheels and got stuck with either older frames or selling wheels for dirt cheap
2. Headtube: Make is straight which allows for use of whatever standard. Headsets are dirt cheap compared to frames and forks
3. BB: I prefer threaded. T47 is a nice looking standard if it gets more adoption. Like headsets, BB on cheap so I can fit what I need. I won't use press fit after a road bike I had was nothing but problems. I know Pivot claims its not an issue, but it sucks for a home mechanic
4. Crank spindles: I think the rush to 30mm was stupid. 24mm was more than enough, I'm not after weight savings so I rarely consider upgrading cranks though. Using a set of DUB GX now and they are just fine. I cannot tell the different between those and Next (other than not pulling pedals out the arms) or any other high end crank
5. Bars: Stems and bars are again pretty cheap all things considered. I'm using 31.8 because I have them and they work. Don't need them stiffer. I'd be frustrated if I had to replace my stem to get new bars.
6. XD is a good interface, wish it was universal, but oh well, I can swap freehubs if needed
7. 31.6 because I have it.. would have said 30.9 if I had that. I'm sure there are good reasons to go larger with new longer droppers.
All in all, innovation shouldn't be stopped due to trying to stick with standards, but creating new things that add such limited value is annoying and delays adoption due to having to replace lots of parts. Bikes aren't cars and most people buying high end bikes tend to move parts on and off them or between bikes. Sharing wheelsets, spare parts, etc is also something of a huge value. I'm down to 1 MTB right now, but when I get another it will share major standards with my current one so I can move parts.
Currently, I think Superboost and Microspline are a pain because it's harder to source gear for it, but if we were all on it, it wouldn't be a problem.
I think this just shows what sheep most of the mountain bike industry (and customers) are. The only standard out of all of those which didn't exist in 2010 that has earned a spot on a hard use bike (IMO) is the XD driver.
Same goes for 1.5 inch head tubes - no short stem possible.
Happy the 1.5 is gone and the 35mm handlebar has not really cought on yet. Bigger is not always better.
Case in point? 24mm shimano (steel) axles last, 30mm aluminium axles are eaten by their (undersized creaking) bearings once there is just the slightest bit of misalignment in the bearing assembly.
s14761.pcdn.co/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/Superboost-Plus-Standard-Enduro-005-1536x1021.jpg
At least 20% of voters are clearly mad.
"I don't give a sh*t, as long as it is STANDARD!!"
Still cruising on a 2003 Gary Fisher so all of this does not compute.
People like to distinguish themselves from others to feel special no matter what they identify with.
if you identify as a Mt. bike rider then the only way you can maintain a degree of "specialness" is to constantly upgrade as the industry convinces you to do so.
― Andrew S. Tanenbaum
Here's a poll:
26", 27.5" or 29" wheels for standards?
If conventional sizing doesn't do the trick for you, just buy a Nicolai.
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