Review: Kavenz VHP 16 - The Traction Master

Feb 4, 2021 at 14:07
by Mike Kazimer  
Kavenz is an offshoot of 77 Designz, a small German company best known for its chain guides and cockpit accessories. Back in 2019, we caught a glimpse of a raw aluminum prototype being rolled around at Sea Otter, one of the early iterations of the bike that's reviewed here. Kavenz has been impressively transparent throughout the entire development process, even going so far as to produce a series of videos providing a behind-the-scenes look at the highs and lows of creating a new bike.

The final product is the VHP16, which has 160mm of rear travel and 29” wheels, with the option of running a 27.5” rear wheel by swapping out the lower shock mount.
Kavenz VHP 16 Details

• Wheel size: 29" or mullet
• 7020 aluminum frame, made in Germany
• Travel: 160mm (r) / 170mm fork
• 64-degree head angle
• 425mm chainstays
• Weight: 34.5 lb / 15.6 kg as shown
• Frame w/ DHX2 shock: 4,170 grams, 3,330 grams frame only
• Price: €2,495 - frame only, no shock (Approximately $2,512 USD without tax)
• 5-year warranty
77-store.com/Store/Kavenz/


Kavenz offers semi-custom geometry, and during the ordering process it's possible to select from six different reach numbers, three seat tube lengths, and two head tube lengths. It's semi-custom because figures like the head and seat angle and chainstay length are fixed, in order to make sure the bike's handling stays relatively close to Kavenz's intentions.

Kavenz sells the VHP 16 as a frame-only, with a few dropper post and shock options that can be added during checkout. At the moment EXT's Storia shock is the sole option available due to supply issues, but that should change this summer. That frame is priced at €2,495, or approximately $2,512 USD without a shock. My test frame arrived with a Fox DHX2 shock, and I build it up with a 170mm Fox 38, SRAM Code RSC brakes, and a hybrid SRAM / Shimano drivetrain (more about that later).

I ran Bontrager's Line Pro carbon wheels, which were mounted up with my preferred winter tire setup – a 2.5” Maxxis Assegai with an EXO+ casing, and a 2.4” DHR II with a Double Down casing, both with MaxxGrip rubber. A Fox Transfer post handled dropper duties, and I used a 175mm and 200mm post at different points during testing. The final touches were a 25mm rise Truvativ Descendant aluminum bar, a 40mm Race Face Turbine stem, an Ergon SM Enduro saddle, and DMR Deathgrip lock-on grips.


bigquotesIt's on the descents where things get good. And I mean really, really good, especially if you're the type of rider that enjoys tight, technical downhill trails, the kind where a new chunky puzzle waits around every corner. Mike Kazimer




Kavenz VHP 16 review


Construction and Features

The VHP's 7020 aluminum frame is available in either a raw, untreated finish, sandblasted and black anodized, or powder coated. Personally, I like how the raw finish looks – it sort of gives it a rat rod aesthetic, especially after it gets a few scuffs and scrapes.

Getting the bike built up didn't test my patience too much, but I did need to do some experimenting to get the chainline correct. That's one of the potential hindrances of a bike with an idler pulley and an upper guide – it's even more important to make sure everything is lined up properly, or the chain will rub against the guide in the easier gears, which is when you're most likely to hear it.


Kavenz VHP 16 review
Getting the internal housing all situated wasn't the quickest procedure, but they were totally silent once I was finished.
Kavenz VHP 16 review
There's room for up to a 2.6" rear tire.


There are holes on both sides of the headtube for running the rear brake housing, and Kavenz thoughtfully includes a little package of putty that can be used to plug and seal the hole that doesn't get used. The brake, dropper, and derailleur housing are internally routed, where foam tubes help to keep everything quiet.

Only one bearing size is used for the entire frame, and it's a common, 6902 size, which will be welcome news for anyone who's ever embarked on a frustrating hunt for an obscure-sized bearing.

Other details to note include a threaded bottom bracket, plenty of room for a water bottle inside the front triangle, and a removable ISCG 05 adaptor for running a bash guard – I put 77 Designz's aluminum Crash Plate to good use on multiple occasions.


Kavenz VHP 16 review
All of the bearings are the same size, and it's possible to swap out the lower shock mount to run a 27.5" rear wheel.
Kavenz VHP 16 review
A 14-tooth idler pulley helps prevent the pedal kickback that would typically occur due to the rearward axle path.


Kavenz VHP 16 review


Geometry & Sizing


As I mentioned earlier, Kavenz's geometry is semi-custom, with 36 possible combinations to choose from. Given how many different bikes I end up riding over the course of a year I'm pretty familiar with the numbers that work well for my riding style and 5'11” height. I chose a 480mm reach, a 125mm head tube, and a seat tube length of 450mm, numbers that pretty much equate to a size large from other manufactures. I did find myself second-guessing that seat tube length when I was waiting for the frame to arrive, but once I confirmed that I could fit a 200mm dropper post my worries subsided.

At the moment, the chainstay length isn't customizable – it's 425mm for all sizes – although that may change if there's enough demand for something longer. While that number looks extra short on paper, don't forget the much of the Kavenz's axle path is rearward, and at sag the chainstay length measures 436mm.


Kavenz VHP 16 review

Suspension Design

Any guesses as to what VHP stands for? No, it's not 'Very High Pivot', because while the main pivot of this bike is low, it's also not that high, especially compared to something like the Forbidden Dreadnought, which uses a single pivot suspension design. VHP stands for Virtual High Pivot, a reference to the fact that the bike uses a Horst link suspension layout, and the 16 refers to the centimeters of vertical wheel travel.

The rear wheel travels rearward for the first 100mm of travel, and then gradually moves forward for the remainder of the travel. It doesn't have the same completely-rearward axle path as a high single-pivot bike typically would, but the axle path is much more rearward than it would be if the main pivot were in line with the top of the chainring, the typical position for many Horst link bikes.

Creating a bike with relatively high anti-squat values and a moderate amount of anti-rise was on Kavenz's list of goals, and they were able to achieve those traits via the location of the idler pulley. At sag with a 34/50 tooth combo, the VHP has 140% anti-squat, with anti-rise levels that sit just below 100% throughout the travel.

There's a 23% leverage ratio progression, which allows the VHP to work well with a coil shock or a larger volume air shock.

Kavenz VHP 16 review
Kavenz VHP 16 review






Test Bike Setup

A 400 lb/in spring on the Fox DHX2 put me right at 18mm or 27% sag, and by the end of the test period my setting were as follows (all numbers are from closed): HSR: 5, LSR: 14, HSR: 5, LSC: 14, HSC: 4. Those are relatively close to Fox's recommendations, with the exception of the low-speed rebound – I've found their recommended settings to unrideably slow, and not just on this bike.

For the 170mm Fox 38 I ran 84 psi with one token, 4 clicks of HSC, 13 LSC, 8 LSR, and 4 HSR, numbers that have remained pretty consistent between the various 38-equipped test bikes that I've been on lately.

Testing took place in Bellingham, Washington, and the surrounding area over the course of the last two months, with conditions running the full spectrum of winter possibilities, everything from hero dirt to a gloppy mud and snow mixture.



Me.
Mike Kazimer
Location: Bellingham, WA, USA
Age: 38
Height: 5'11" / 180cm
Inseam: 33" / 84cm
Weight: 160 lbs / 72.6 kg
Industry affiliations / sponsors: None
Instagram: @mikekazimer


Kavenz VHP 16 review

Climbing


Kavenz claims that the VHP's high anti-squat levels make it climb like a cross-country bike, a line that should be cause for some serious eye-rolling from even the most gullible reader. In the words of Public Enemy, don't believe the hype. Remember, we're talking about a 34+ pound enduro bike here – it'd take some serious wizardry for it to even come close to feeling like a cross-country machine.

Hyperbole aside, the VHP is a very competent climber, assuming you're comparing it to other bikes in this category. That 77.5-degree seat tube angle is nice and steep, and the fact that the actual seat tube angle is 75-degrees helps ensure that long-legged riders don't end up too far over the rear axle. Even at slower speeds it never felt like a handful, and I was able to navigate through whatever slippery roots got in my way without much fuss.

The rear suspension stays impressively calm during seated climbing efforts, especially for a bike with a coil shock. That calmness does diminish during out of the saddle efforts, and in those instances the shock will cycle partway through its travel with each pedal stroke. I made use of the climb switch for fire road grinds in order to make the bike feel as efficient as possible; on more rolling terrain or technical climbs I was fine leaving it open and maximizing the amount of traction. I'd put it behind the Propain Spindrift and Santa Cruz Nomad as far as how efficient it feels, but I also didn't have any qualms about taking it out for longer, more pedal-y rides (assuming there was a good downhill at the end), something I was less likely to do with the Norco Shore.

What about the idler pulley wheel? It kept spinning without any hiccups in some seriously muddy conditions, and I can't say that I ever felt like it was hindering my progress. There's no denying that it does add a little extra drag - I'd say it's similar to what you'd experience with a chain guide that has a lower guide wheel – but it never bothered me out on the trail.


Kavenz VHP 16 review

Descending

It's on the descents where things get good. And I mean really, really good, especially if you're the type of rider that enjoys tight, technical downhill trails, the kind where a new chunky puzzle waits around every corner. In those types of situations, the VHP absolutely thrives, and even if you make a mistake or three there's a good chance this bike will let you get away with it.

Steeps, rough tracks are its forte, and it exhibited a surprising level of nimbleness at slower speeds. It was easy to unweight and move the back end around when necessary, and carving into sharp turns didn't pose any problems either. If anything, the way that the VHP 16 sits into its travel when cornering had me on the hunt for tight sequential corners – the way it grabs onto the ground through the turns is a downright addictive sensation.

Kavenz VHP 16 review

If I lived on Vancouver's North Shore, the VHP 16 would be on my shortlist of ideal bikes for that zone, an area filled with countless square-edged hits and momentum sucking roots. Put that type of terrain in front of the VHP 16 and it'll just plow right on through, unphased and ready for whatever's next. Bigger drops were dispatched with zero issues – there's a smooth ramp-up at the end of the stroke, and I didn't have any harsh bottom-outs.

It's also worth mentioning how satisfyingly silent this bike is. I'm a sucker for a quiet bike, and the Kavenz passed that test with flying colors. The idler pulley and the chainstay angle reduces any possible chainslap noise to a bare minimum, which meant that the only thing I heard out on the trail was the sound of my tires rolling over the ground and the wind rushing past my ears.

Downsides? Well, even though I mentioned that the Kavenz felt surprisingly nimble in the steeps, it's not all that lively when it comes to hitting jumps or popping over mid-trail obstacles. It's more of a ground-hugger than an aluminum kangaroo, and it takes more effort to get it airborne compared to bikes with less rearward axle paths. It's obviously still possible to take to the sky, it's just that it doesn't have the 'pop' to its handling that would have encouraged me to seek out bonus air time. Speeding up the rebound on the DHX2 shock helped, and I'm sure an air shock would add a little more pep to the VHP 16's step, but at the end of the day it wouldn't be the bike I'd pick if I wanted a spritely, energetic jumping machine.



Kavenz VHP 16 review
Kavenz VHP 16
Norco Shore review
Norco Shore

How does it compare?

The Norco Shore and the VHP 16 both use a Horst Link suspension layout with an idler pulley, and they both have aluminum frames with a coil shock, so a comparison seems appropriate, even though the Shore does have 20mm more rear travel and 27.5” wheels.

When it comes to geometry, the Shore has a 480mm reach, a 63-degree head angle, and a 77.7 degree seat tube angle. Other than the head angle being slacker, those numbers are very similar to the Kavenz's 480mm reach, 64-degree head angle, and 77.5-degree seat tube angle. The difference lies in the chainstay length – the size large Shore's measure 445mm (they change by 5mm per size), while the VHP16's measure 425mm.

The climbing position on the two bikes is nearly identical and works very well to ease the sting of long climbs. Neither bike is wildly light, but the Shore's frame is decidedly heavy, at around 2 pounds more than the Kavenz, which can make those climbs feel like even more of a grind.

The longer chainstays and slacker head angle give the Shore a greater need for speed than the Kavenz; when the miles per hour drop the Shore turns into a handful much quicker than the VHP 16. Even with those smaller wheels, the Shore's wheelbase is 37mm longer than the VHP 16. I found the Kavenz to be more versatile, a bike I was more likely to grab for quick after-work laps versus the Shore, which is better suited to shuttle or chairlift accessed laps, or at least rides where the focus is entirely on the descent.

The Shore gains points back in its favor when it comes to price – the frame with shock is $2,099 USD, which is significantly less than the Kavenz, although keep in mind we're comparing a semi-custom, made-in-Germany frame to one that's mass-produced in Asia.

Kavenz VHP 16 review
Kavenz VHP 16 review

Technical Report


Code RSC brakes: The Codes RSCs are still some of my favorite brakes currently on the market. They're consistent, easy to bleed, and with enough adjustments that I can get them dialed in to feel exactly how I want. I do think there's room for something even more powerful in SRAM's lineup, a brake for DH bikes / e-bikes and hard-charging enduro riders. Super Codes? Then the Codes could trickle down into the trail bike realm - I know I'd chose Codes over the G2 brakes any day.

Mismatched drivetrain: I was partway through building up this bike when I realized I didn't have a Shimano shifter with a band clamp, and I also didn't have an adaptor to mount an I-Spec EV shifter to a Code brake. Rats. I decided to stick with the Shimano chain, cranks, and cassette, and pair it with a SRAM GX derailleur and shifter. That way I could benefit from Shimano's Hyperglide+ technology, and not need to buy any adaptors or other parts. It shifts just fine, and while sticking with parts from just one company is still the way to go for the absolute best performance, I don't think I'm sacrificing much with this hybrid setup.

Fox Transfer dropper post: Fox's Transfer post is one of the more expensive cable-actuated posts on the market, but that's backed up by a high level of reliability. I started off with the 175mm version and then swapped out for the new 200mm length, and both posts stayed free of any play for the duration. On really muddy rides the return speed would occasionally drop, but a good clean and a few drops of lube around the dust wiper fixed that issue.



Kavenz VHP 16 review


Pros

+ Standout performer in steep, rough terrain
+ Very, very quiet
+ Semi-custom geometry creates wide range of fit options



Cons

- Pricey, and in short supply
- Not much 'pop' for jumping or hopping over obstacles, at least in this configuration
- Chainstays remain the same for all sizes


Pinkbike's Take

bigquotesThe crew over at Kavenz should pat themselves on the back for a job well done with the VHP 16. Its composure on steep, rough trails is excellent, as is the traction it delivers when conditions take a turn for the worse. It's not an easy, or inexpensive frame to obtain, but riders that are lucky enough to get one for themselves are in for a real treat. Mike Kazimer









187 Comments

  • 127 0
 Congrats to the Kavenz team for scoring a home-run on their first release! It was enjoyable following along watching all the work that went into this. I was rooting for you, though I didn't really have any doubt that it would be good.
  • 6 0
 My sentiment completely, it was fun watching the team on Instagram. They worked so hard and it seems to pay off. It's fun to see a different enduro monster. Doesn't look like a....
  • 69 1
 I have one coming out of the current batch, can't wait. EXT Storia and Era, and some other cool stuff from Intend, 77designs, Faast, etc. Been a while since I went full boutique nerd on a build - seemed like a good time for it with supply chain issues from the larger manufacturers. Excited to get back on a high pivot idler bike - I've had a few and always got along great with them.
  • 82 0
 is your company hiring...
  • 3 0
 That sounds like the absolute dream!
  • 10 0
 @adrennan: Lol, always! I work for a gigantic global engineering company that does almost everything!
  • 5 0
 Stoked on mine coming too. Going a little more generic with Zeb, Superdeluxe, GX, then ENVE bits, Kendas and hopefully a nice 180 dropper.
  • 13 0
 Nice. Can I have your old bike?
  • 10 0
 Forgot to mention, @Giacomo77 has been awesome to deal with through the whole process!
  • 49 0
 Ooh baby I like it raw
  • 17 0
 Off on a natural charge, bon voyage
  • 11 0
 from the home of the dodgers, Brooklyn squad
  • 7 0
 Gimme the mic so I can take it away
  • 2 0
 Shimmy shimmy ya, shimmy yam, shimmy yay
  • 46 1
 That frame isn't expensive. Its nearly $2000 less than a Trek Slash frame only.
  • 16 2
 Thats comparing apples to oranges (with the slash being way over priced imo). $2500 usd for an aluminum frame without a shock is relatively expensive when you compare with other alu frames. $2500 is what I would expect WITH a shock. Still a kick ass frame though, looks like they got it right!
  • 14 2
 @Speedgoat9: How many other aluminum frames have custom sizing and weigh only 3.3 kgs? Not to mention this is "boutique", not catalog/big brand
  • 11 0
 @hamncheez: plus it's made in Germany.
  • 5 7
 @hamncheez: What performance benefit does this "boutique" thing give me? The last gen Propain Spindrift was 1150€ for the frame only, while having 3 of its links completely cnc machined.
1150€ is a fair price for a high performance frame only. Airdop with their edit frame for 1200 pounds is a similar story.
  • 19 1
 @PaulBoettig: Both of those frames are heavier. The Propain is an awesome looking deal, but the Airdrop doesn't have as trendy geometry and isn't 29 (which is in higher demand than 27.5). The question ultimately goes to, why any other frame but the Propain then? Some people don't like the look of the Spindrift, the performance, etc. Its not always only about price.

This bike also adds custom sizing. Thats a big winner in my book. The reviews for this frame are also very high- it just rides freaking well and while I haven't tried it I'd bet it rides better than that Propain.

The appeal of a boutique brand is multifaceted. Part of it is the crypto-kitty effect; people like exclusive stuff, and there is plenty of rational reasons to want exclusive beyond being a rich douche. Another is a desire for something different. When you're in your mid 30s (most of us) and you've been riding for 2 decades, you can start to get bored. You work full time and might have kids, so your riding time is less but you (finally) have stable income, so you can afford things like this. Its fun to have something a little different, that isn't mass manufactured, and you know your supporting a new, fresh, small company. Because of things like their vlog, you feel a personal connection with the guys who brought this to life, and you want them to be successful.

TL;DR: rock bottom pricing isn't the #1 desirable trait for a frame.
  • 1 0
 @hamncheez: MDE Bikes...
  • 4 0
 @hamncheez: I completely understand the boutique argument and imo the custom geometry does justify the extra cost. However, this is pinkbike and the average pinkbiker doesn't care. All they see is material and associated price.

Ita funny, you described my situation perfectly. Late 30s, 3 kids, competitive racing days are over, etc. Ill be replacing my outdated 2014 jekyll later this year, and this bike actually has now made my short list when the time comes. My days of looking to pop off things are long over, give me something that can plow, but still be nimble in tight, steep, techy situations. This looks like it could be a winner.
  • 4 0
 @PaulBoettig: if you searching a cheap mainstream bike with the look on the price propain is the right choice for you but when you will ride something special that makes you faster on racetracks and you like the wow when someone see your bike you better try the kavenz . In my opinon the propain is only a performance bike but the kavenz is really a high performance bike. The propain is like a golf gti stands side by side to a wiesmann roadster or a mercedes gt
  • 1 2
 @hamncheez:
1. Geometry and Wheel size
Why would geometry be a determining factor in pricing? When I weld a frame together, it doesnt matter, if the tubes at angle x or x+1°. Same thing goes for Wheel size. 29er wheels are not more expensive than 27.5. There are also people who prefer bike that dont have the dimensions of a truck. More chioce is good.

2. Weight
Both frames are at about 500-800 gramms heavier than the competition, but both have very high reliability and when you hit the frame on something, you dont get a dent the size of a baseball. The Propain also has a full lvl. 5 DH certification, while most of the bikes in the category have only a lvl. 3-4

3. Ride quality
"I havent ridden it, but I bet it rides better than the Propain." Just some good old speculaton to really tie this argument together. Stop speculating and give me some actual points. Geometry on both is nothing outrageous, so that falls 100% under personal preference. What remains would be stiffness, but nobody has any numbers on that, and suspension kinematics.
Do you have any points to make about the suspension kineamtics?

4. Boutique
Its certainly nice, to get something, that not everybody has, but this is not a rational argument.

5. "Rock bottom pricing"
If rock bottom pricing was my objective, Id get a Calibre Bossnut or something. Both the Airdrop and the Propain frames ride very well (Ive tried the airdrop and multiple propains) and are beloved by many riders, so what do you have to say against that?

Convice me with facts and numbers.
  • 3 0
 @PaulBoettig: Do you have any experience in retail? Do you know what its like to ship a product? The more SKUs you have, the more expensive your operation. Having 6 frame sizes is much more than twice as expensive has having 3 frame sizes. These have to be made to order- you can't stock inventory ahead of time, you can't try and predict which sizes are going to sell best, you can't forward stock your product at bike shops and warehouses, and you can't sell immediately to customers. This last one is the real zinger. Under normal, noncovid conditions, MOST people will select a bike that they can purchase immediately over another bike that could take months to build and ship, all other things being equal. This narrows your customer base and market cap.

To get something that not everybody has is 100% rational. It governs most of the choices that most people make throughout the day. It is the foundation of society, free trade, the economy, and socialized creatures such as ourselves. The point of a bike is to have fun, and that requires specialized equipment. If it was just to be out in the woods enjoying nature with no regard to having a cool thing to do it with we would all be hikers and trail runners. Having a cool bike is important to some people, and thats rational, moral, and.... just cool.


These Kavenz bikes are made in Germany. I'm looking to have a small run of custom frames made in China, and yes, its much cheaper there. But Even for just 20-30 frames, my brother who is an import/export expert says I need to fly out there to inspect and do QA on site before they are boxed up and shipped. It is a nightmare to ensure your entire production batch has the same quality control as your samples. When the entire process is done in a single locality, you typically get better quality control, but this comes at a higher expense.

Finally, we keep saying "higher expense", but these frames are still pretty cheap. They are below average for a high performance bike frame. The reviewer here (and others) say this bike rides exceptionally. That doesn't mean the Propain doesn't ride well, but this will ride noticeably different, and most would probably say better.
  • 1 1
 @hamncheez: I dont have that much experience in retail, I only worked there for a while a few years back. My expertise is in engineering, and compared to other weld structures and machined parts, bike parts are outrageously expensive. This is why bike prices piss me off so much, thats all.
  • 3 0
 @PaulBoettig: I look forward to seeing you launch your kick-ass bike company. Well-engineered and rock bottom priced bikes, lightweight but indestructible.
  • 1 0
 @Mr-Gilsch: PaulB does have a point- a small crew like this (or even that Starling guy in his woodshop) can turn out bikes that compete performance-wise with the largest bike companies on the planet.

I don't think the bike industry is mature yet- only in the last 3 years have we finally settled on what "good" geometry is for a 5" trail bike. I think (hope) that in the next 10 years the manufacturing side of the bike industry can mature and catch up with how things are done in the automotive/aerospace industries.
  • 37 3
 Unpopular opinion: shimano drivetrains shift smoother with sram mechs
  • 6 9
 Wait, does that actually work? I assumed the cableb pull ratio was different. In theory, I'd love a XT shifter on an x01 eagle drivetrain. That sounds like the best of both worlds in my book.
  • 17 0
 @neologisticzand: I believe he meant a shimano chain, cassette and chainring with a sram shifter and derailleur.
  • 10 0
 @neologisticzand: it does, for 12speed. I’ve ridden a bike with GX shifter/XT derailleur, and seen a few of the opposite combination on YouTube.
  • 7 0
 With what combo? I currently have a full XT drivetrain and honestly the clutch is kind of a pain to get at the right tension. Don't really love the feel of the XT shifter either. Everything about the derailleur/shifter of the XT feels finnicky and it's super easy to get out of adjustment.
  • 1 0
 I'm curious why you'd say this. Personally, I love the Hyperglide+, and have been thinking about pairing this with an AXS derailleur. That said, I've read from reliable sources (Bikemag, etc.) that while this set up is good, it is not necessarily better than all Shimano XT/XTR or Sram AXS.

If you feel differently I'd love to know why!
  • 5 1
 I agree, Sram shifter and derailleur with Shimano cassette and chain is my preferred combo. I have the parts for a pure Shimano or Sram drivetrain, but the mismatch setup offers Sram's lighter shifter action and matchmaker clamps to pair with Code levers, with Shimano's smoother shifts and even steps between gears.

As a bonus I get to use the mostly silent Shimano rear hub, which is excellent.

I feared that the Sram clutch might be problematic because it feels weak in the workstand, but while actually riding I've not dropped the chain as a result of it*, perhaps it's just enough and maybe that helps keep the shifting light. (* I'm using a Shi12 chainring with the Shimano chain).

@neologisticzand the Shimano derailleur doesn't seem to work as well over the 42T-50T jump on Sram cassettes (I've not tried the 52T cassette, I assume that would be worse).
  • 3 0
 @neologisticzand: yes, it works just fine. The tolerances are so close once you get to 11 spd that it doesn't make much of a difference as long as the cassette and chain match. RD/shifter you can use whatever you want with whatever cassette.
  • 6 0
 @gafoto: Each of us has our unique experience, but XT and XTR new versions are flawless for me, even in wet. Added a bit of grease to the clutch, all good. Most stuff now is pretty good. After Sram for 5 years, Shimano moving forward
  • 8 8
 Agreed, but 100% Shimano is even better. Only thing I like from sram is rock shox.
  • 2 0
 @riish: it does for 11 speed too. i use xtr shifter and gx rear mech. no issues at all. was sick of xt rear mech clutch failing. xt cassette and xtra chain.
  • 2 0
 Agree- I had XT shifter/ derailleur with SRAM cassette/ chain for a while. The XT shifter is hard to press and I just can't get the positioning right. Now its all XT and I love the Shimano shift action but still really miss the SRAM shifter, though the 2X downshift is nice.
  • 1 0
 @aaronfpeet: Shimano shifter cassette and chain but Sram derailleur works great. smooth shifting
  • 1 0
 Yep, I’m on all shimano except a GX shifter, which has a lighter touch for my old man thumb. Works great!
  • 1 0
 @neologisticzand: works both ways with 12spd. I’m running the opposite nx shifter with slx mech. My nx clutch was shite slx much better imo
  • 7 0
 @neologisticzand: Really? I have X01 Shifter on one bike and XT on the other. The double downshift feature is nice, but the X01 shifter is far better at actually shifting. With XT shifter I often miss gears in either direction at the same time (can't shift smoothly up or down) but the X01 shifter basically never misses a shift. I think it is because the shifter for X01 moves further for each shift than XT which gives it more room for error.

The only thing I strongly prefer about Shimano is the gear steps on the cassette. The second largest gear is much more useful at 45 than 42.
  • 1 0
 @mtb-thetown: I miss the double shift function now that I've been on SRAM for my last few bikes. That's honestly the main reason why I'd consider a shimano shifter on an otherwise sram setup. But that is also nice to hear about the x01 shifter vs XT. have absolutely no complaints about my x01 shifter.
  • 2 0
 I have the GX drivetrain, and it's not too impressive. Positive and smooth shifts about 75% of the time ... I was expecting 100% for a brand new and well-maintained drivetrain.
  • 2 0
 @njcbps: get an X01 shifter and the whole thing will feel about 2x as nice.
  • 2 0
 @KJP1230: hyper glide+ is fantastic, just keep the chain and cassette but switch to sram mech and shifter and it’s beautiful. Other than losing the double release of a shimano shifter, but axs more than makes up for that.
  • 3 0
 @neologisticzand: 10-11-12 speed Shimano works with 11-12 speed SRAM. They are all interchangable. I currently shift with a 11 speed SRAM shifter on a 12 speed Shimano derailleur. Works great on the wide range 11 speed cassette I run a 10-46 but would really like a 10-50 11 speed cassette.
  • 20 1
 I understand entirely why people like extending the rear end of bikes as the size goes up. but sometimes I see it as a bonus to have a short rear end on my size large frames. I ain't racing so it's fun to have a snappy rear end. Canfield has always done this right with their bikes.
  • 9 2
 Not to mention wheelies and manuals are fun! Not on long chainstays though.
  • 4 1
 Even if you're racing, it's a matter of preference. Some bike reviews say the shorter chainstays give extra grip at the rear, others say that the longer chainstays give extra grip at the rear. Making reviews is like "whatever the bike has" is better for "whatever". Regarding weight distribution though, you will be able to get more weight on the rear with shorter chainstays, and that will give you more traction. But of course there are other variables influencing the perception one gets from the bike, and often these are associated with the chainstaly length without there actually being a direct relationship. And also in theory, you will be able to weigh the front more easily with longer chainstays, but there are other variables associated with how one controls the front of the bike. All that to say that short chainstays are just as viable for racing. It offers more benefits than just extra maneuverability.
  • 4 1
 @DavidGuerra: that was a long-winded way of agreeing with me haha
  • 9 0
 @DavidGuerra: It really depends on the size of the rider and Kazimer, at 5'11", is not tall (and neither is he heavy). He's actually just 1" taller than the design standard of 5'10"/ 165 lb male.

It is interesting that Kazimer notes that the chain stay at sag is 436 mm which is basically the magic number (435 mm) for a L-XL hard tail 29'er.

At 6'2"/ 188 cm and upwards of 85 kg/ 190 lbs the relative rear wards placement of the COM that is forced upon the rider by a short chain stay/ rear centre means that every first effort or percentage of energy or concentration (even if sub conscious) is focused on "getting forward" which detracts from other aspects of riding and skill execution.

For the properly tall/ larger rider a centred stance on the bike (helped by a longer effective rear-centre and steeper effective STA) is a total game changer.

I run a 2020 Sight and a 2020 Optic and the Sight design team nailed it perfectly for an XL rider and the Optic design team only get 9/10 because they failed to commit to the same effective STA which makes an obvious difference when you get the opportunity to ride them back to back.

Just my two cents worth based on 25 years of riding bikes with too short chain stays followed by five years of riding bikes that finally fit.
  • 3 1
 @andrewbikeguide: that works for you for how you ride. At 6' I am not at the short end but I am always happier on bikes with short rear ends. Maybe it comes from years riding dirt jumpers or my love of the canfield balance, but always happier when it's easy to get that front wheel up.
  • 9 0
 @adrennan, bikes can still have short chainstays and size-specific chainstays - the two don't need to be mutually exclusive. For instance, say a size large bike had a 480mm reach and 435mm chainstays, the medium a 460 reach and 430 chainstays, and the small a 440 reach and 425mm chainstays. All of those bikes have fairly compact rear ends, and you avoid having a small bike with really long chainstays, and an extra large bike with chainstays that are so short that they make it awkward to ride.
  • 1 0
 @andrewbikeguide: I think the Optic STA is 76, and Sight is close to 78 (if memory serves). What differences do you notice?

I'm 6' on a XL 2020 Optic and wouldn't want to be any farther forward because my knees are not plump at bottom of pedal stroke (from steep STA), but maybe a shorter reach would be a better solution.
  • 1 0
 @andrewbikeguide: I agree with your sentiment whole heartedly. One of the feature benefits of my new 2020 Specialized Enduro was the longer chainstays AND rearward axle path (at least for the first 20% or so of suspension movement). Creates a terrific balance that allows me to ride in a very centered position, with plenty of latitude to move forward or backward dynamically and as needed.

The longer chainstay does require a tiny bit more steering input (you've got to really master maintaining center of mass and "tipping" the bike to create the steering angle underneath you, which is how you should ride anyway), but this creates zero issues as, like you, I am 6'2" ~195lbs.
  • 17 0
 An air shock gives the bike much more pop. I ride my Kavenz with a DPX2 air shock with less stroke ending up at something around 140mm rear travel. This makes the bike much more livelier. Going to the bikepark I put the coil shock with more stroke back in and the bike changes again to a root sucking machine.
  • 10 0
 Crossworx, ActoFive, Kavenz, Unique Cycles, Frobidden, Deviate... Boutique high pivot enduro bikes manufactured by small companies in even smaller numbers seem to be all the rage these days.
  • 2 0
 I don't think Crossworx makes a high pivot bike. But otherwise your list is solid.
  • 4 0
 Big name brands seem to be forced into making swoopy shapes and CAD driven designs to look attractive to the masses but there is something about these raw metal straight pipe bikes that looks industrial, functional, and unassuming and would easily hold its own next to anything. Like a tractor vying for 3rd place at Le Mans.
  • 2 0
 @blackthorne: a damn fast tractor this would be for sure
  • 13 0
 Beautiful bike
  • 10 0
 @mikekazimer are you affiliated with them, or is the article starter a freudian slip? ... Kazvenz :-D
  • 11 0
 Ha, I must have started daydreaming about what I'd call my own bike company.
  • 7 0
 I would go a little farther Mike:

" I also didn't have an adaptor to mount an I-Spec EV shifter to a Code brake ".

In my research there is none. Wolftooth does not make one. Problem Solvers is threatening but who knows when.

Please tell me I am wrong and one exists. Why someone has not come up with one I have no idea. SRAM has better brakes and many prefer Shimano shifting.
  • 1 0
 There are some Chinese options that do that
  • 1 0
 @demo7jumper: Any links to where you can purchase? I am desperate. My clamp XTR shifters really do not line up well with my guide clamps.
  • 4 0
 @dldewar, You're not wrong, but there is a workaround - I managed to get a Problem Solvers Mismatch 2.2 to work with an I-Spec EV shifter by using a longer bolt to connect the shifter to the adaptor.
  • 1 0
 @mikekazimer: Dam - I just sold the 2.2 I had because I could not figure out how it worked. So surprised that there are not a slew of adaptors by now. As we all agree SRAM brakes and shimano shifters. Not to say there is anything wrong with SRAM shifters - just prefer Shimano. I am so old I can remember the evolution from thumbshifter onwards. There really is not a bad shifter now a days - keep up the good work!
  • 2 0
 @dldewar, I agree, I'd expected there to be at least one decent option by now. I'll let you know if I come across one that works without any fussing around required.
  • 5 0
 it totally exists. it's on Shimano's website. shimano>brake>mtb>Saint

while expensive, this adaptor does have the positive side effect of dramtically improving the performance of the Code brakes! Big Grin
  • 2 0
 @conoat: hate to say it. Your downhill bias has lead you to create a micro aggression by labelling a downcountry rider as part of your group. The SR. In my brakes rather than a SHI is due to their weight but now you have forced me to fat shame. I am offended!!!!!

Ride hard! PS not sure if the Saints have the new EV spec mount.........
  • 4 0
 The next stage of evolution for this is to be able to swap our the idler for different gear sizes to customize your anti-sag. If I hadn't just bought my dream build bike, I really think I'd had gone all in on this frame and balanced the budget by lowering the build price of my current bike.
  • 4 0
 This review seems to miss one major piece of the puzzle. It does not mention how it handles at speed I was looking for something but it only mentions slow speed tech, big hits and jumps or at least that was how I read it.
  • 10 0
 It does well at speed, although I do think if outright stability was the goal then longer chainstays would give it an even more 'locked in' feel on long fast sections. As it is, I'd say it's a little more neutral in the high speed handling department, while the Forbidden Dreadnought feels like there's no speed limit.
  • 1 0
 @mikekazimer: thanks for additional info
  • 2 0
 @mikekazimer: How does it compare to the Raaw and when will you be publishing your long term review of the Madonna?
  • 4 0
 I love this bike, clean, purposeful, and simple design, made in a first world country by people who love to ride, and easy to recycle aluminum frame, especially in raw. This is how it should be done.
  • 7 1
 Sometimes I wonder why big bike companies even try. This thing is so dope!
  • 3 0
 "chainstay length are fixed, in order to make sure the bike's handling stays relatively close to Kavenz's intentions."

Except that a single chainstay length will handle differently with each reach length...
  • 4 0
 I think having the option of choosing a bike with size-specific chainstays is great, but your argument makes no sense to me —- no matter what you do to a bike’s design, a 5’-5” tall person is going to experience a different ride than a 6’-6” tall person. Center of gravity, proportion to wheel size, etc.

And how would you measure that the shorter person on the smaller bike is getting the same handling as a taller person on a larger bike?
  • 2 0
 @AckshunW: I think his point is, wheelsize/reach increase on larger sizes, chainstays don't – therefore the rider's position is ever so slightly offset to the rear, on larger frames.

It's probably not a massive difference, but I do not doubt that skilled riders will notice a difference. (For example, my bike has interchangeable dropouts that increase the chainstay length by 10mm; not much, but the bike does handle juuust a little better on most terrain, in the longer setting. I'm 6f1in, on an XL. A smaller rider on a smaller size probably would prefer the shorter setting.
  • 1 0
 @AckshunW: I'm sorry, meant to write "wheelbase/reach increases"...
  • 2 0
 @AckshunW: "a 5’-5” tall person is going to experience a different ride than a 6’-6” tall person. Center of gravity, proportion to wheel size, etc."

Exactly, everything is relative. Thing is, chainstay (rear-center) length relative to front-centerlength is one of those factors, and it's completely ignored when all sizes have that same chainstay length. However it is a big factor to how a bike turns in and carries through a turn. As @Lankycrank said, if the chainstays stay one length, the shorter riders (on Smalls) are biased more towards the center and tall riders (on X-Larges) are biased to the rear, thus two bikes of the same model with have pretty different turning handling depending on size.
  • 2 0
 nope. you have to remember that as you make the chainstay longer, with out changing anything else in the rear of the bike, you are thus changing the length of the lever. This will and does affect how the rear of the bike reacts, regardless of front center length and fore/aft balance.
  • 1 0
 @conoat: Not nope, but exactly. Yes, changing the chainstay alone changes the bike handling. But it's all connected, and it's all relative. Yes, if you look at the chianstay alone, a longer one would seem to give less leverage to lift the front end for manuals and such. However, you have to take into account the longer levers everywhere else on a larger bike: longer arms, longer legs, longer torso, longer reach. Combined this with the change in turning handling from the front-to-rear bias changing as the bike lengthens but the chainstay doesn't, means if you want to say you took into account the entire geometry to make all sizes ride similar, then you have to have chainstays that change proportionally to the rest of the bike.
  • 1 0
 Increasing chainstay length with size has the added benefit of keeping anti-squat consistent for taller riders.
  • 1 0
 @just6979: front-center and chainstay proportions aren't at all what I am talking about. I agree that what you are talking about is important though.

what I mean is that if you want to 100% preserve the leverage curve/kinemetics/axle path/shock performance of the rear suspension, you can't just lengthen the CS. you would have to futz with all the things I mentioned to get the bike to behave in the same way as the bike with the shorter CS. Am I picking nits? yes, but so was the Manufacturer in this article. I would wager money that Norco is largely using a change in shock tune to compensate for the change in Kinemetics on the Shore when they upsize the CS.
  • 2 0
 @conoat: the rear end can stay the same. All the mounting points on the FT move rearward relative to BB. Leverage curve doesn't need to change, but it could if the manufacturer thought there were a benefit. The juice is definitely worth the squeeze, even if for nothing else than climbing a bike with short CS sucks when you are tall.
  • 1 0
 @FatSanch: exactly. but that would mean you have to change every front triangle and rework all the engineering as well. not a cheap proposition. It effectively making each size of a particular bike it's own development. highly cost prohibitive

as a 6'2" dude, I agree with you about short CS climbing.
  • 2 0
 @conoat: but that's a problem for the manufacturer, not the person buying it. There are several companies doing it already without massively increasing prices.
Moving all pivots together is no engineering feat. Manufacturing will cost the same for carbon, but might increase cost for alloy. It's a basic level of engineering that should have always been done, but we don't demand much out of the bike industry.
Probably pulling it off with an idler pulley makes it even harder, but I would rather have appropriately sized chainstays than an idler pulley (shrugging emoji)
I really like this frame, btw
  • 1 1
 @FatSanch: it becomes the problem of the consumer when that bike is now 20% more expensive. which is the problem for the manufacturer, since they will see a dip in sales.

that is why you don't see it. period. end of story.
  • 5 1
 Got mine on the way. Mullet, 460, 420, 110. SO STOKED. Fantastic review, Kaz!
  • 5 0
 “Pricey, and in short supply.” Every review in 2021.
  • 2 0
 Great to see a smaller brand killing it with a release. I understand the rationale on the shorter chain stay lengths, but it would be nice to see them a tad longer, even with the rearward axle path.
  • 1 0
 Looks like... drum roll...... an azonic samurai.

Is there any proven science behind the rear ward axle path thing I.e some lab tests? What happens when the wheel rebounds directly at the next bump? I have an open mind to it but just want to see some evidence...
  • 2 1
 The VHP16 looks awesome. Not related, on that photo of the Norco Shore, the spring on that shock makes me cringe, looks like they found the longest, beefiest spring to put on they could find.
  • 5 1
 It’s a 180 travel bike for big moves... so yeah a beefy spring makes sense.
  • 1 0
 @DHhack: Yeah, just saying it looks like the spring is way bigger than the stroke, just looks odd in the photo. :shrug:
  • 1 1
 Wah?!???!? : "I decided to stick with the Shimano chain, cranks, and cassette, and pair it with a SRAM GX derailleur and shifter. That way I could benefit from Shimano's Hyperglide+ technology, and not need to buy any adaptors or other parts. It shifts just fine...."
  • 2 0
 The only thing that stops me from 'high puller' system is a tattoo from grease after each ride on my leg. Or am I missing smth?
  • 5 0
 Trousers?
  • 1 0
 @Linkpin: lots of trousers needed than or one in black colour ;-)
  • 1 0
 Kaz, how does the VHP16 handle in long/ fast/ loose flatter or spiraling down turns where front traction is at a premium?

The turn described above, is where short CS's don't work for me.
  • 1 0
 Great looking bike, I wonder if the lack of bracing on the seatstay will cause a flexy rear end. The 2017 era Giants had an un-braced seatstay and the main pivot bearings suffered from the flex.
  • 1 1
 The Kavenz did make it on my very short list for a new bike but the short chain stays (even at sag) combined with my preferred long Reach scared me off and I stand by that decision. If it had 10-15mm more CS I was ready to whip out the CC at that time.

That said, as I read more HP reviews, every one of them acknowledges the additional drag from the idler pulley and as such, for me and my pedal heavy riding, HP bikes are probably just not the way to go.

Giacomo was great and direct in my couple of brief emails and I do run the 77Designz bash guard and find it to be the best available.
  • 1 0
 "I didn't have a Shimano shifter with a band clamp, and I also didn't have an adaptor to mount an I-Spec EV shifter to a Code brake."

I'm fairly sure such a thing doesn't actually exist. If it does, I will be very pleased.
  • 6 4
 Y'all got it as a frame and didn't weight the frame sans shock? For shame Jail .
  • 22 0
 I did. It’s 3330 grams without the shock.
  • 3 0
 @mikekazimer: Thanks for adding it in Big Grin
  • 10 0
 @mikekazimer: I know you didn't spend long on the Dreadnought, but any thoughts on how the Kavenz compares. I assume the chainstay lengths make a difference but also how does the suspension performance compare?
  • 1 3
 @mikekazimer: How does the Kavenz compare to the Donut?
  • 1 1
 @mikekazimer: Wait, €2495 Euros is closer to $3006 USD, not $2512 USD, at the current $1.205 to €1.00 exchange rate.
  • 4 0
 @WRCDH, the Euro price includes VAT.
  • 6 0
 @mikekazimer: Damn...... Finally some content on here to make an accountant excited!!!
  • 3 0
 I like 'Pricey, and in short supply' which bike isnt at the moment
  • 2 1
 I guess with that VHP rear-axle path the Trust Shout woud be a good fit to flatten all roughness at the front, too. Of course this would make the bike even less poppy.
  • 1 0
 I was thinking the same thing. I have a Shout, but have not been able to run it on a high pivot bike. The Shout would not make a bike less poppy, it's still an air fork, rides like an air fork, just has a different axle path.
  • 1 0
 @nurseben: I ride a Shout, too. And it does not respond poppy like a telescopic air fork if you push it in front of an obstacle. The reason is what you said - the different axle path.
  • 1 0
 @yoobee: Yeah, it's not quite the same, but it's more poppy than a coil fork.

I think that is a compromise with the suspensions that have rearward path, but in a sense that "damping" of the impact is the reason we've used coil shocks and coil forks, so maybe there's no need for a coil on high pivot bikes?
  • 1 0
 @nurseben: Hmmm. Then maybe the rebound on your coil fork was too slow? Smile

I'm riding an YT Decoy. Depending on my ride I switch between coil (freeride, park) and air (trail). Both front and rear. The front behaviour differs way more between Zocchi Z1 and Trust Shout at the front, than Manitou Revox and Vivid Air in the rear (the Vivid is quity "coily"!). The pop of the Z1 ist quite similar to the Lyrik I had before (it is more sensitive of course). You simply push and pull to lift your wheel. With the Shout you don't need to push, it is useless. Just pull harder.
  • 2 0
 Looks better than a lot of new enduro bikes from the big players - really like the look of this
  • 4 1
 When is Levy going to realize the bikes with idlers are sick AF?
  • 2 3
 Did you read the article?
  • 7 0
 @CircusMaximus: I think you've mixed up your Mikes.
  • 9 0
 @alexsin: d’oh! You’re right. Apologies fullendurbro!
  • 2 0
 It's really impressive what these guys accomplished and I really enjoyed watching the open doors process. Congrats!
  • 1 0
 @mikekazimer : very interesting review, thanks. How would you compare it to the latest Specialized Enduro?

In general, quite impressive result for Kavenz' first bike.
  • 1 0
 @mikekazimer As youve been riding this for quite some time now. Would you take this over a gearbox bike for your one and only? AKA the Taniwha
  • 1 0
 Yes, I'm still not sold on gearbox bikes, mainly due to the fact that you can't shift under load, and most of them have a twist shifter rather than a trigger shifter.
  • 2 3
 "At sag with a 34/50 tooth combo, the VHP has 140% anti-squat" ...and what about the other gears? And why not show anti-squat for the more common 32t chainring size? And while you're at it, maybe mention the center of mass position used in calculating the anti-squat. Granted, it's good that you specified that the 140% is at sag.
  • 2 0
 32/21 is 140% AS in SAG. The CG is 700 mm above the BB.
  • 1 0
 @Giacomo77: Ok, and what about say 32/14 and 32/36? It would be nice if every time anti-numbers are given for any bike, that the information provided is anti-squat at sag for all gears, the chainring size (perhaps everyone can agree on 32t), and the vertical position fo the center of mass above the BB.
  • 1 0
 *anti-squat numbers
  • 4 0
 @cedrico: I agree, it´s around 140 for all the gears and chainrings. Chainring size has almost no effect on the AS as the idler is in charge of that. The only thing changing is the ramp of the AS through out the gears. We´d love to see an International Standard for the Center of Gravity, which would make comparison much easier. Right now everyone can tweak their AS just by moving the CG so the consumer will still be in the dark.
  • 1 0
 @Giacomo77: Thanks for the info. If a standard CG height is decided upon, perhaps a certain frame size should be decided upon as well (for calculating the anti-squat numbers that are publicized). I suggest this because the actual CG height of the combined rider and bike varies for different sized bikes and people, and if anti-squat is optimized for different CG heights for different sized frames, then one could choose the most marketable anti-squat numbers by selecting a certain frame size while using the standard CG height. So, the industry could agree on, for example, showing anti-squat values at sag for all gears, with a 30t chainring, 650mm CG height above the BB, and size large frame. Does that make sense?
  • 2 0
 @cedrico: yes that would be a great improvement for the consumer. We actually do that for a German Bike Magazin for their annual enduro Test.
  • 1 0
 @Giacomo77: That's good to hear! You Germans are so logical - I admire it. Well, I will keep objecting when press releases don't include enough info to preclude the possibility of anti-squat cherry picking, and maybe one day if many people do this, claimed anti-squat numbers will be more reliable and meaningful.
  • 2 0
 I'm confused why there's so many people going "omg beautiful welds!" yet no mention of welding 7xxx series alloy...
  • 2 0
 Those welds are beautiful.
  • 1 4
 Weld , i disagree . (-;
Seriously , i think they are ugly
  • 2 0
 Looks like a Giant NRS + pulley. Plush as hell I bet.
  • 1 0
 And to think people are obsessed with the a lesser meterial called carbon when you have beasts of bikes like this!
  • 2 1
 @mikekazimer : "quick after-work laps" does that even mean something when your work is precisely to do laps on bike ? Razz
  • 1 0
 @mikekazimer , if you have to compare with the propain spindrift in a few words (cons , pros)?
thanks
  • 1 0
 In the thumbnail-preview it looks like a Raaw Madonna. Both are beautiful bikes and I'm glad I own one them Big Grin
  • 2 2
 i like the straight lines of the bike but the welds look terrible . i don't mean they are weak or anything like that, just visually unappealing to me .
  • 1 0
 Kavenz a problem getting exited about this bike...
  • 2 0
 That looks sooooo sick
  • 2 0
 some sick photos
  • 1 0
 VHP very high pivot as in VHF very high frequency???
  • 1 0
 Would the bike feel more poppy with an air shock?
  • 1 0
 some, but certain brands naturally feel poppy with either. My guerilla gravity megatrail is not that poppy regardless, my evil offering is poppy with push coil or air.
  • 1 0
 With the right tune yes!
  • 1 0
 @sutter2k: All of my GG bikes are poppier with an air shock.
  • 1 0
 Rad shots guys! Now I just need to find that trail...
  • 1 0
 @mikekazimer what would your aforementioned north shore short list be?
  • 1 0
 First look reminded me of the old Rocky Mountain ETSX-70.
  • 1 0
 Fugly!! Sorry, not sorry.
  • 1 0
 Tire choice is on poin
  • 1 1
 The Traction Master is my Tinder nickname.
  • 1 1
 looks like a car A-arm. looks like it has a high roll center
  • 1 0
 SRAMano for the win.
  • 2 2
 Those welds though ????
  • 1 2
 Looks like the Arthenton's
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