Review: Shimano's XTR 12-Speed Drivetrain Sets the Bar for Shifting Performance Under Power

Jun 20, 2019 at 19:48
by Mike Kazimer  
Shimano XTR M9100 review

It took much longer than anticipated for Shimano to come out with a 12-speed mountain bike drivetrain, and even when they did release the details of the new XTR M9100 group it was still nearly a year before all of the components could actually be purchased. That meant there was a three-year span between the debut of SRAM's Eagle 12-speed gruppo and Shimano's entry into the ring, enough time that even diehard Shimano fans began to jump ship in search of more shifter clicks and wider range cassettes.

Thankfully, it looks like the amount of time between announcement and availability should be much shorter with the upcoming XT and SLX groups, and, if all goes to plan, by the end of this summer riders will have a range of price points to choose from.

But let's focus on the XTR M9100 group for now, Shimano's flagship off-road drivetrain.
XTR M9100 Details
• 12-speed, 10-45 or 10-51 tooth cassette (tested)
• Multi-release shifter
• Direct mount chainring
• Hyperglide+ cassette and chain technology
• Requires MicroSpline freehub body
www.bike.shimano.com


Shimano XTR M9100 review


Details

At this point, the details of the XTR M9100 drivetrain have been discussed in extensive detail multiple times, including a First Look article and an First Impressions article. But if you missed those, here's the quick rundown.

Cassette / Chain: The 10-51 tooth cassette is the heart of the drivetrain, with three aluminum cogs, five titanium cogs, and then four steel cogs to finish things off. The cassette and the hollow pin chain are shaped specifically to allow shifting to be performed at any time, even under load. The gear steps are: 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 21, 24, 28, 33, 39, 45, 51. There's also a 10-45 tooth cassette for riders who don't need such a wide range and would rather have closer spacing between each shift. The cassette requires a MicroSpline driver body, which has 23 rectangular splines that allow for the use of a multi-part cassette with a 10 tooth cog. The cassette weighs in at 376 grams.

Shifter: According to Shimano, the M9100 shifter requires 35-percent less effort to activate, and shifting is 20-percent quicker. Both up- and downshift levers are textured to avoid thumb slippage, and it's possible to shift down two gears with one single push. Weight: 127 grams.

Derailleur: The derailleur uses 13-tooth jockey wheels and retains the adjustable clutch mechanism found on Shimano's prior derailleurs. Weight: 242 grams.

Cranks / Chainring: You may have noticed that the cranks shown in the title image look a little different - that's because they're the M900 cranks, which have an XTR direct mount chainring mounted to the new XT cranks. Production models of top-tier XTR M9100 cranks only recently became available; those cranks are still aluminum, but forgo the familiar two-bolt crankarm mounting interface, and are approximately 80 grams lighter than the 595 gram cranks (with ring) tested here.


That little mark on the inside of the pulley wheel cage simplifies setting the correct B-tension.


Installation

Every time I install a 1x drivetrain, I take a moment to pause and appreciate the fact that front derailleurs have almost completely disappeared from the mountain bike world. I spent way, way too many hours wrestling with those finicky things during my years as a mechanic, and the fact that many bikes don't even have a spot to mount one makes me happy. Yes, there is an XTR M9100 front derailleur, but I'm just going to look the other way and pretend I didn't see it.

With no front derailleur to fuss with, it's the rear derailleur adjustment that's the key step in the installation process. Shimano takes the win here vs. SRAM – they've thoughtfully printed a mark on the backside of the outer pulley cage that makes it incredibly simple to set the correct amount of B-tension, without the need for a separate plastic tool.

The cassette installation is simple, but don't forget to install the small, almost clear spacer that comes with the cassette. It's an easy thing to overlook or misplace, but it's designed to help prevent any unwanted creaking.


Shimano XTR M9100 review


Performance

When's the last time you really thought about when and where you shift during a ride? For most of us, shifting has become second nature – we're accustomed to shifting into an easier gear before a big hill in order to avoid shifting while pushing hard on the pedals, or, if that's not possible, unweighting the pedals slightly during a shift to prevent the chain and cassette from emanating any clunks and clanks of displeasure. Shimano's Hyperglide+ design makes that unweighting and pre-planning unnecessary – you can now shift whenever you want, and the chain will move up or down the cassette without any fuss.

I was skeptical at first, and all the years of practicing proper shifting technique made it hard to trust that bad things wouldn't happen when I decided to shift during the middle of an extra-steep climb. My fears were unfounded, though, and the chain went exactly where I wanted it to each and every time.

Want to quickly shift into an easier gear while you're pedaling hard out of a corner? Go for it. How about shifting into a harder gear in the middle of a sprint towards a hard-to-clear jump? Yep, that'll work too. For me, this is the most impressive feature of the entire drivetrain.
Shimano XTR M9100 review

The only downside is that when I would hop on a SRAM-equipped bike I occasionally found myself shifting as if I was still on XTR, which caused a few clunky gear changes and some not-so-nice noises. I also missed the ability to drop down two gears with one push when I switched to a SRAM drivetrain It's a little thing, but with SRAM a double click is required, while with Shimano it's one single push.

As far as the actual shifter ergonomics and feel go, the XTR shifter requires a little more effort to push compared to a SRAM X01 shifter, but it is very distinct and precise, and shifts feel like they happen the very instant the lever is depressed.

I'm also a fan of the traction pad on the shift lever, a feature that came on several wet and slimy winter rides. That pad can be replaced but based on the limited amount of wear that's visible so far, I have a feeling that won't be a very common occurrence.



Shimano XTR M9100 review
Feel free to backpedal - the chain will stay right where it's supposed to.
Shimano XTR M9100 review
I didn't need to adjust the clutch at all during testing, but it's nice to have the option.


Cassette Spacing

It wasn't too surprising when Shimano announced that their cassette had a 51-tooth cog. There's probably some science behind it, but I've got a feeling having a wider range, no matter how small, than SRAM's 10-50 tooth Eagle cassette was always the goal. I didn't notice any massive difference between riding with a 50-tooth gear and a 51-tooth gear – they're both easy enough to provide some welcome respite on super-steep climbs.

With the XTR cassette, it's only a 6-tooth jump to get to that 51-tooth cog, versus the 8-tooth jump on an Eagle cassette. That spacing difference is noticeable, and it makes it easier to maintain a similar cadence after making that shift.


Durability

The entire drivetrain has survived the wide range of conditions I've subjected it to, and the amount of wear that's visible is in line with what I'd expect. The fact that the derailleur's clutch is adjustable and rebuildable is another point in Shimano's favor vs. SRAM. The non-series cranks are developing the usual rub marks; it's a little more noticeable on the black cranks compared to the actual XTR cranks, but either way, it's going to happen, especially if you ride in wet, gritty conditions.


Shimano XTR M9100 review


Does It Blend?

There have been a number of questions floating around in the comments section about the cross-compatibility of SRAM and Shimano components. Of course, neither company is going to recommend mixing and matching their components with a direct competitor's, but does that mean it doesn't actually work? Not exactly... It turns out that the cassette spacing and cable pull amount are close enough that mixing brands is entirely possible.

Not surprisingly, if you want the best shifting performance from an XTR drivetrain, it's best to use all of the components - chain, derailleur, cassette and shifter. The chain and cassette are specifically designed to work together, and if you use a different chain you aren't getting all of the benefits of the impressive Hyperglide+ shifting.

That being said, it's also possible to pair a Shimano XTR shifter and derailleur with a SRAM Eagle cassette and chain. You'll lose the ability to power through the gears under load, but you'll still be able to drop two gears with one push of the shifter, and have a serviceable and adjustable clutch, all without needing to buy a Microspline freehub body or an entirely new hub / wheel.


The Weight Game


For all the gram counters out there, here's a handy chart that illustrates how XTR stacks up against SRAM's X01 drivetrain. Yes, SRAM's XX1 drivetrain will be a smidge lighter, but that's group is aimed more at XC racers and riders, while X01 and XTR have a broader range of intended usage. The biggest difference in weight comes down to the cranks and is due to SRAM's use of carbon vs. Shimano's aluminum. The actual XTR cranks (I tested the non-series cranks, which are technically XT cranks with an XTR chainring) will be lighter, but still not as light as SRAM. Shimano does take the win for the derailleur weight, coming in at 242 grams vs. 281 grams for an X01 derailleur, but that gain is partially erased by the slightly heavier cassette and shifter. At the end of the day, both groups are quite light, especially considering how much abuse they can withstand.



Pros

+ Incredible shifting performance, especially under load.
+ Excellent shifter design, feel.
Cons

- Gram counters will likely want lighter cranks.
- MicroSpline driver body isn't widely available yet.



Pinkbike's Take

bigquotesIt took a lot longer than anyone anticipated, but the wait for Shimano's 12-speed drivetrain was worth it. The ability to shift at any time, combined with the excellent lever feel and well-thought-out gear spacing all uphold XTR's spot as the flagship gruppo in Shimano's off-road lineup. It does cost (and weigh) a little more than SRAM's X01 Eagle group, but the performance more than makes up for that. Mike Kazimer








354 Comments

  • + 401
 Sorry, this reaction is not on topic:

What is up with those colored key words beneath the articles on the main page?
Looks horrible, clutters the page and doesn't really help with knowing the content of the articles.
  • + 60
 I had the exact same reaction when I saw those horrible things appear. I don't quite get the use of them, and having them in bright color is surely unnecessary unless PB secretly wants our eyes to bleed every time we open the page (maybe a sunglasses industry conspiration ?)
  • + 28
 I see what they are going for but indeed, it does not look well.
  • + 21
 Hah, I came here to comment the same. Been trying to figure out how to disable them!
  • + 21
 the tagging pops up more that the headlines !!!!!! do you guys need ux design help?
  • - 35
flag Jack-T-Media (Jun 27, 2019 at 2:17) (Below Threshold)
 surely i cant be the only one who thinks they look lovely. They were a welcome change for me
  • + 18
 personally I like them as when you click on, for instance XTR, then it brings up all related articles and reviews, pretty helpful stuff really.
  • + 8
 If you're using chrome, download User CSS extension (chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/user-css/okpjlejfhacmgjkmknjhadmkdbcldfcb?hl=en) and apply ".pb-tag { display: none; }".

You can find equivalent extensions for other browsers.
  • + 6
 I agree it's annoying and cluttered but I get what they're doing. Wouldn't the simple fix be to put the links on the article page itself?
  • + 22
 Came to say the exact same thing. Looks like 1994 threw up on your blog. There's also absolutely no way those colors pass web accessibility standards either (people with color blindness)

Kill it with fire, theres no reason to color-code your filter tags, noone will ever remember "oh, the yellow one means Drivetrain". Your font sizes are getting all over the place too, why are these all bold? can we also discuss the 1px gray stroke...

Seriously, for a site worth upwards of 32million, may want to hire a more experienced design/dev team.
  • - 11
flag mtbgeartech (Jun 27, 2019 at 6:02) (Below Threshold)
 Do you even ride bikes or just comment on website design all day?
  • + 3
 I wasnt bothered by them at first but as I began the scroll.... my eyes have actually started to hurt.
  • + 3
 I agree, not a pleasing addition.
  • + 3
 It's an attempt to grab your attention and give keywords, will probably severely bog down the site just like the "updates" they made to trailforks. Good job content pump.
  • + 2
 @NYShred: this should be the top comment.
  • + 1
 I give them two snaps up in a circle
  • + 2
 Lord, I didn't notice them until you said something. Now I can't unsee that monstrosity.
  • + 3
 Those coloured keyworks remind me of the web in 2012, when _everything_ was twitter bootstrap. To see it on a website in 2019 is... strange? I know Pinkbike hires Software Engineers, but damn what are they doing with their time. Both the website and trailforks app look like a garbage fire, with bugs and UX inconsistencies to match.

Too busy riding bikes in Squamish I guess...
  • + 2
 @maximell: I don't like the color coded keywords, but have no problem with Trailforks app. I use it all the time and love it. What are your issues with it?
  • + 2
 Get it sets the bar, shifters on your bars, hahahahahahaha you can't make this stuff up.!!!!
  • + 3
 @sngltrkmnd: The app is actually what I have the least problems with, but I still find route searching and discovery very annoying on the app. The thing I have the most problems with is the website: I find the map interface cluttered, navigating around the map is annoying (auto-hover for riding areas triggering and then obscuring the map), inconsistent navigate / new tab across the site (for example, when on a map, when I click a riding area in the sidebar it opens a new tab, instead of doing something on the map I'm already on), the UI looks dated across the board (generic bootstrap with some _slight_ modifications), and in general I find links for things in weird place (vague, I know).

I also experience bugs and crashes on a regular basis. For example, with my last comment I submitted it, and scrolled down to see it posted twice (I did not double click the submit button), and when I refreshed the page the comment showed only once. So something as simple as making an ajax request and creating a div for my comment on the page on completion was something pinkbike got wrong. Stuff like this also happens on Trailforks for me.

I do professional software development, and have contributed to enterprise mapping applications in the past so I know this stuff is tough, but I figured the world's largest action sport website could handle it.

Oh - and no emoji support. Whyyy
  • + 1
 Yeah, for sure. How about using the menus at the top a little more efficiently instead of the new color tags?
  • + 1
 @maximell: Colour keywords would be fine if they weren't so bold. Subtle highlights would be great.
  • + 4
 Skittles! This article has the most.. taste the rainbow.
  • + 1
 The tags are a good idea but the implementation/visual is awful. Pinkbike in general is horrible from a UI/UX perspective and is about 5-10 years overdue for a modernization.
  • + 1
 It's not a bug, it's a feature.
  • + 2
 The idea of tagging news stories is OK, but the implementation AMT is shit. Tags don't need to be boxed, bolded or colored. People are super familiar with tagging, just super subtle is enough. It's like an ugly MTB as it is - too much engineering, not enough design.
  • + 0
 They look pretty useful to me
  • + 1
 @harunurhan: thanks for this!
  • + 2
 I came to this article to say the same thing about the home page, and there it is, the top comment. I'm sure it's $ related somehow............. It always is.
  • + 1
 seo - search engine optimization.
  • + 1
 Haven't noticed, haven't still. But then again I use a RSS reader, I don't directly come to Pinkbike.
  • + 119
 About those colorful tags - please don't.
Suggestion: make it gray, less poppy, less vibrant. They are just screaming for attention Smile
Love pinkbike!
  • - 6
flag vinay (Jun 27, 2019 at 0:22) (Below Threshold)
 They used to be grey but people were still getting upset when they ended up reading an article that didn't suit them. So apparently they didn't notice them. Most typically e-bike material, sponsored content or press releases. Now these colors do have a meaning to them so that might help. It doesn't bother me at all and I appreciate the effort they put into this.
  • + 27
 @vinay: Maybe it's me but I've never read an article that "doesn't suit me". I read the title and decide before I click.

*NEW HAIBIKE E-BIKE REVIEW*

"I feel deceived, I clicked on the article and it is actually about e-bikes"
  • + 6
 @marecektn

"They are screaming for attention".....

That is PB, its content, its users and its comments sections all right there, so those little coloured tags look right at home.
  • + 2
 @Grealdo: This past year I've seen a good few articles that were perfectly tagged "sponsored" or "press release" and still people were moaning in the comment section. See, the older grey tag system worked perfectly fine for me but the new one doesn't bother me either. Even if it is a little bright, how much time do you spend on the front page anyway? The one improvement I see with the new one is that they can now use more tags so they can now mention the athlete, whether it is a press release, travel etc all for a single article.
  • + 2
 @orientdave: Ouch...
  • + 3
 @Milko3D:

Very ouch.

Truth hurts sometimes.. equally guilty here!
  • + 65
 So bottom line Sram threw crap out there to be first and Shimano did some engineering. Before you neg prop me. Srams wide narrow cogs make shifting worse- gets out of sync and needs to slip. We all know Shimano would never release something like that. Shimano goes and makes it so it can shift under load while adding a cog.
  • + 18
 No, not really. Most people would call Eagle crap, and it remains unchanged since the first gen stuff showing that Sram really did a pretty good job years before Shimano. Big S or Big S, choose one and be a dick about it.
  • + 3
 @tgent: You call wide narrow cogs that need to slip a good job- seriously?

Before Eagle, no one would have excepted a slipping drive train.

Sram releases exactly that and everyone goes gaga over it.
  • + 8
 @TheOriginalTwoTone: I honestly have no idea what you are talking about with regard to "cogs that need to slip"???
  • + 4
 @tgent: Pretty simple and well know issue with Eagle.
The two largest cogs are wide-narrow profile.

Just think of putting your chain on a W-N chain ring, you have to sync the chain to the teeth- same thing happens with an eagle cassette, sometimes when you shift onto those cogs, the chain rides on top of the teeth because it's out of sync and has to slip a tooth until it's in sync.

forums.mtbr.com/drivetrain-shifters-derailleurs-cranks/sram-eagle-design-flaw-1052658.html
  • + 8
 @TheOriginalTwoTone: Well that sucks for the few people on that forum that are having troubles, but honestly Eagle is working flawlessly for 99% of riders, myself included since it was released...
  • - 2
 I'll remind you about Shimano's brifters, rapid rise, and their still current "variable bite point" brakes.
  • + 1
 @tgent: You may not notice, but it's happening to every single person that owns Eagle.

Its simply impossible that every shift of yours to one of those two cogs is in sync. That would be like you telling me you can flip a coin and have it land on the same side every time.

People can neg prop me all you want doesn't change facts.
  • + 7
 You lost me at "Sram threw crap out there"

I have so many customers on Eagle drivetrains, and so few having issues. I'm glad shimano has caught up, and hopefully the real competition is going to push Sram into making their drivetrains better, but the constant "eagle is shit!" rhetoric is so bloody old. You have to be essentially blind to not see Eagle has been insanely successful.
  • + 0
 @sherbet: nowhere as successful as X5.
  • - 2
 @sherbet: Sorry is you think wide narrow cogs are engineering and not a band aid.

It's not about issues, its design.

Not one post has disputed the fact that the shifts can never be 100% in sync. The system is designed to have to slip.

Please prove me wrong.
  • + 1
 @TheOriginalTwoTone: narrow wide and 42t cog are the best things that Sram has ever done in their history.
  • - 4
flag sherbet Plus (Jun 27, 2019 at 14:49) (Below Threshold)
 I don't think the narrow wide cog is a great idea, nor do I recall saying that. The system can slip while shifting into the easiest cog. This is such a small problem for most people that most still absolutely adore the system.

90% of our floor bikes are sram. To say it hasn't been a successful group is a joke. It changed the market.
  • + 0
 @sherbet: what on Earth is wrong with NW chainrings?! I have been riding with NW and no chain guide since 2011 and dropped chain twice! Twice in 8 years! When I had chain guides I was dropping chain and getting it jammed somewhere at least twice a month, even with top and bottomrollers
  • + 2
 @sherbet: Where did I say it was unsuccessful. I merely pointed out throwing some WN cogs onto a cassette isn't engineering.

I'm merely pointing out that while it took time, Shimano spent time engineering a drive train that can shift under load. You don't have to be a Shimano fan boy to respect the fact that took more time then slapping on an extra cog and making the lowest two WN with subpar shifting.

I just find it funny how everyone is ok dismissing that little fact while piling on Shimano for taking so long.
  • - 5
flag tgent (Jun 27, 2019 at 15:17) (Below Threshold)
 @TheOriginalTwoTone: No, I do know what you are talking about now, this happened on my drivetrain when I first got it, then I tuned it until it never does it anymore. You can essentially tune it out so it only shifts on the shift ramps. It is not a fact that it will do it on everyone's drivetrain, it does it on very few for whatever reasons.
  • + 3
 @WAKIdesigns: God man, please read. We're talking about the 50t cassette cog on Eagle that is N/W, not chainrings.

@TheOriginalTwoTone: As Tgent also said, once properly tuned, it's very rare to happen. You told me I thought N/W cassette cogs were a good idea, or implied it, I'm merely responding to that notion.
  • - 2
 Ummm crankset and hubs. They threw that shit out there.
  • + 3
 @sherbet: ahh sorry. Yeah, that is an interesting concept...
  • + 7
 Hopefully sram will finally have to make a decent mid level drivetrain at a decent price. Also looks like I'll finally be able to consider complete bikes instead of building to get decent kit.
  • - 5
flag thenotoriousmic (Jun 28, 2019 at 1:04) (Below Threshold)
 Shimano would never release something like that... meanwhile shimano releases brakes with violently changing bite points, clunky shifters with plastic thumb paddles, cheap loose pressed steel cassettes that rip your freehub to bits, cheap mechs that bend if you look at them wrong, go all floppy after a year and clutches that always fail and my word have you seen their dropper post? Not ridden their new stuff they might have sorted themselves out but how you acting like they haven’t been releasing garbage for years now?
  • - 4
flag thenotoriousmic (Jun 28, 2019 at 1:15) (Below Threshold)
 @TheOriginalTwoTone: have you just got into mountain biking or something? When chain stretches it doesn’t fit the groves in cassette properly and sits on top. Always starts with the biggest cog because that’s what uses the most chain and normally wears the least.
  • + 4
 @thenotoriousmic: what does drivetrain have to do with brakes? I am on latest Codes RS and prefer them over every single brake that I have tried. But if someone put a gun to my head and told me to run Shimano I would not cry that much. Accordingly with gears I prefer Shimano but Sram is not going to ruin my ride...
  • + 5
 @thenotoriousmic: It's seem a more appropriate question for you. Chain stretch has nothing to do with the chain riding up on a wide narrow cog.
  • + 1
 @TheOriginalTwoTone: The smallest sprockets on your cassette wear the fastest and the chain wears / stretches with it when this happens the chain no longer fits the bigger less worn sprockets. Hence why the chain didn’t fit the two biggest sprockets on your friends bike who went to 16 different bike shops who all amazingly didn’t spot this glaringly obvious symptom.

Anyway glad to have cleared this up for you and remember to change your chain at least once every 6 months even if it looks fine because eagle cassettes and chainrings aren’t cheap.
  • + 1
 @thenotoriousmic: You really have no clue what you're talking about do you?

Lets educate you on the issue. A chain has wide and narrow links. A wide narrow chain ring or cog has wide and narrow teeth. Following so far? Good. Now in order to work properly, the wide link of the chain has to be on the wide tooth of the ring/cog. Why you may be asking, because the wide tooth can't fit into the narrow link.

So when a chain is out of sync with the ring/cog it rides on top because it can't physical mesh- it's impossible.

Hope that helps.
  • + 1
 Haha nope you’ve got absolutely no clue what you’re talking about and honestly if you can’t even grasp something simple like chain wear there’s no point even talking to you. ill Just leave this here and hopefully you can work it out for yourself.

youtu.be/kem5Rk863WA
  • + 2
 @thenotoriousmic: Well done. A video on 11 speed that has nothing to do with the 50t and 42t wide narrow cogs that are on an Eagle cassette.

Funnest part of this whole thing is you're getting positive props.

I guess a lot more people don't understand how a chain and W-N tooth profile works.

Here, maybe you're better with pictures:
www.pinkbike.com/photo/17397438

A narrow link can never fit on a wide tooth. New chain old chain, doesn't matter.
  • + 2
 @TheOriginalTwoTone: He isn't debating that narrow chain links and narrow cog teeth can or cannot mesh, he's trying to give you advise in context to what wears first and how to mitigate slipping. Maybe stop trying to prove something and listen to what he has to say.
  • + 4
 If I ever rode Eagle I’d set the upper limiter on the rear mech so it doesn’t shift to the 50t and grind down it’s teeth to have the most pretentious chain guard ever... or just buy 10-46 XTR race. The whole thing amuses me greatly after trying Eagle and knowing right away nobody but XC Marathon racers can utilize this range, just like nobody could really ever utilize tripple chainsets. All shit talk of folks who want moar. You can’t even ride steep stuff with this crap because you wheelie out your bike. Unless you run 36-38t front. I barely keep the front planted on steep sht with 32 front and 42 rear, and pedalling into a 10-12m jump at 30+ km/h on 32-10 is a joke. Been told countless times here how Eagle does this and that, then tried it and it’s even dumber than I assumed.
  • + 0
 @sherbet: Whats the point in that? The slip we are talking about is when the chain rides up on the cog and has to slip into sync.

That has nothing to do with chain stretch so why mention that?
  • + 2
 @WAKIdesigns: You sir need to go climb up a hill on Pole. Trust me, go try it, 50t and all!
  • + 4
 @boxxerace: Yeah the steep seat angle, long stays and wheelbase make it less likely to loop out but then make it hard to maneuver when on such climb. You can theoretically sort that with hopping but let’s be clear, very few people are like JK Weed, Ryan Leech or Chris Akrigg
  • + 2
 @TheOriginalTwoTone: no you think that’s the problem I just told you what the problem actually is, if that even actually happened. Sounds a bit far fetched to me though. 6 bike shops couldn’t identify a worn drivetrain? Come off it.

I posted the video so you could see in slow motion how it works. I didn’t notice the chain sitting on top of any of the sprockets. Did you?
  • + 2
 @WAKIdesigns: He was talking about NW cogs on cassette not chain rings Waki. And yes, that is indeed a design compromise.
  • + 1
 @thenotoriousmic: The chain riding up on the two large cogs of an Eagle drive train is a known issue. It happens on brand new drive trains and has nothing to do with chain stretch.

That is the slip we're talking about here. Not worn out drive trains that you stumbled into this conversation talking about. Two completely different subjects.
  • + 2
 Load of BS. I've eagle since launch and never had this issue. I do know how to setup my bike though. It's the best drive train I've had in 30 years. It's also proven very durable.

From this article it sounds like to me the new xtr is as good or better which is great and might end up in my next bike. your words? Just fanboi bs.
  • + 1
 @TheOriginalTwoTone: no it happens because nobody really needs eagle so he has been asking a worn 12 speed chain to fit a practically unused 50t sprocket. Assuming it even happened at all... who else knows what other bullshit you’ve been making up.
  • + 0
 @thenotoriousmic: So I'm making it up that a chain's narrow link can't fit on the wide tooth of a cog?

You're some kind of special. Go out and try it on your chain ring. Move the chain one link either direction tell me how well that meshes.
  • + 2
 Nobody is saying otherwise. You don't get into the easiest cog as often, so it wears less. As the rest of your drivetrain wears and your chain stretches, it no longer profiles correctly into the N/W cog, as it's at a different rate of wear. If you swap chains more often then it tends to be vastly better for getting onto that cog.

This guy is genuinely trying to help you and you've repeated the same irrelevant point some 6 times to this point. Please stop and be reasonable with the people trying to help you.
  • + 1
 @sherbet: He came into a conversation about the chain having to slip into sync. That's it. You've even said it happens. Then he pops in with crap about chain stretch- that is completely different than the slip into sync I was talking about.

It's really that simple.
  • + 2
 We're trying to explain to you why that slip happens, and how to help it. You clearly don't want a resolution here, and are just looking to have an argument. I'll bow out here.
  • + 2
 @TheOriginalTwoTone: doesn’t matter if it’s a 12 speed eagle or a 9 speed alivio symptoms are the same except a eagle 12 speed system is way more sensitive you really need to buy a new chain at least every 6 months. Think of it like shimano cup and cone bearing. You have to do the maintenance before the symptoms appear because when they do it’s already to late.
  • - 1
 @thenotoriousmic: actually can't happen on a 9,10 or 11 speed, since they don't use wide narrow cogs.

You don't want to stop and pay attention. The 'slip' I'm talking about is when the chain rides up on the wide narrow cogs. Simple to reproduce on a chain ring as well.

Again this slip I'm talking specifically about has nothing to do with a worn out drive train. It ONLY happens on two cogs that are wide narrow on a 12 speed Eagle cassette.

Why is this so hard to comprehend?
  • + 3
 @thenotoriousmic: mate you did your best. Just let it go.
  • + 3
 Stop with the lies, hater. You love Shimano, that’s fine. I’ve had Eagle AXS since the end of March and ridden the absolute living $hit out of it and have had NOT ONE problem with it. Shifts effortlessly and perfectly EVERY TIME. No slip, no chain drop...nothing! Unbelievable fast and haven’t made one adjustment. Shimano is on their heels after the release of AXS...no wires, super easy set up and clean.
Stop with your nonsense and get a life. Sounds to me like you’re a crappy mechanic more than anything.
  • + 2
 @TheOriginalTwoTone: if it had nothing to do with wear and as all eagle cassettes are identical we’d see it on every cassette all the time from new but we don’t. Why is this so hard to comprehend? Like I said if you want to run a precision 12 speed cassette with a 50t chain ring you’ve got to keep on top of that chain maintenance or else it will chew up your smaller sprockets and won’t fit the bigger less used sprockets hence why the chain was sitting on top of the biggest gears. Got it yet?
  • + 1
 Narrator: "He didn't get it yet."
  • + 1
 @sherbet: LOL
I love the way all of you ignore a very simple question.

Can the narrow part of a chain fit on the wide tooth? Nothing to do with wear.

Answer that simple question.
  • + 0
 You sound like a broken record. It's kind of sad that you think this is a witty response.
  • + 1
 I love this thread. I just fixed my old 10sp X9 type 2, mounted it to X0 shifter and run XTR chain on XT 11-36 cassette. Best drivetrain that I have ever had.
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: Running that on the Antidote?
  • + 1
 @sherbet: Funny you're still saying I don't get it when you backed up what I was saying.

"I don't think the narrow wide cog is a great idea, nor do I recall saying that. The system can slip while shifting into the easiest cog. This is such a small problem for most people that most still absolutely adore the system."

My only point was @thenotoriousmic: came into the conversation about the slip you and I were discussing and starting into chain stretch etc... which is not what we were talking about and then proceeded to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about.
  • + 0
 @TheOriginalTwoTone: it was what you was talking about. You just didn’t know it.
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: m9000 xtr cranks are going cheap right now. Finish the job Wink
  • + 1
 @sherbet: no, on the DJ that I converted to gears for the summer. But the shifting speed, precision and feedback is absolutely awesome. I will test it with the sunrace 11-42 cassette later on the anti.

@thenotoriousmic - no way. No pinch bolts, no care
  • + 1
 @thenotoriousmic: He's stuck on it. We tried our best.

@WAKIdesigns: Got a link of the bike? Could always check out some rad rides. Kinda miss that 10 speed glory days kinda stuff.
  • + 1
 @sherbet: I’ll post later. The thing is, my X9 rear mech outlived 3 if not 4 der hangers and 3 spokes. And apart from a bit of play... it works!!! I like the feedback of 10sp X0 shifter, how crisp the shifting feels and how evident shifts are. I hated the soft dickness of 9sp shimano.

Then I’ve seen the latest XTR in person yesterday and at least to me, looks as bad as Sram hahah. The rear mech is just Deore-ish. The 11sp was hideous enough but the only “cheap” looking thing was the plastic clutch lever. But the latest 9000 looks like Deore to put it mildly. The 10sp 980 series will stay in my memories as the best made MTB group ever, challenged only by 9sp X0.
  • + 40
 What are the odds of a Hyperglide 11 speed cassette being released for a normal freehub body? I'm not optimistic but it would be nice...
  • + 21
 Right? I really don't care about 12 speeds and will only bother upgrading when I replace my bike in a few years. But that shifting improvement sounds like it'd be a dream on my already great-shifting 11-speed XT drivetrain.
  • + 10
 NONE. Microspline is to fix the notching issue. When the freehub first came out it was made from steel and there wasn't a problem. Then companies starting using AL to save weight and that's when the issues started. MicroSpline is specifically designed with AL as the freehub material and to prevent the notching - so no way they are going backwards.
  • + 3
 If that were to be a thing I would definitely buy it. I'm running the newest E13 cassette right now and have found it shifts better than I expected but I'd like to have the smooth shifting of this new Shimano group as an 11 speed and on a non-splined driver.
  • + 1
 @TheOriginalTwoTone: Just to be clear about the notching thing, it never happens on Shimano hubs because they have never used aluminum for their free hub bodies, only steel or titanium neither of which have that issue. It's only aftermarket hubs that use aluminum that do. The microspline design spreads load over a much larger surface area with those extra teeth, which had allowed Shimano to finally use aluminum for the freehub body, taking out a chunk of weight in all their new hubs bringing them much closer to what the aftermarket has offered for many years.
  • + 2
 @TheOriginalTwoTone: there are alternative options. Onyx hubs with the aluminum free hub have a metal insert that prevents the splines from getting chewed up. It has proven to be durable and hardly adds any weight.

I'm sure Shimano did design the new spline to resolve the issue as you described while intentionally adding another proprietary piece to the puzzle.
  • + 2
 @bicycle019: it never happened with old shimano hubs with a steel freehub body but it’s happening with the new MicroSpline shimano freehub but then that’s what you get for use cheap pressed steel cassettes.
  • + 26
 Twelve is too much. This is mountain biking, not road. Our drivetrains have to put up with more abuse, and therefore need to be a little more forgiving when things get rough. There should be a decent gap between the chain side plates and the adjacent cog. I've had two bikes with Eagle drivetrains and just replaced my third with XO1 11 speed. Happy as a pig in mud.
  • + 11
 Sure the problem with Eagle is not particularly the spacing but the very finicky nature of the derailleur, particularly the B-screw setup that is a pain in the ass. I'd take 12s spacing but with 9/10s and the free space used to have more equal spoke tension.
  • + 15
 Couldn't agree more.

Cynically, the increase number of gears and narrower chain mean that everything needs to be replaced more often :-(
  • + 11
 @Balgaroth: I even feel I dont need the middle gears at all on my 11-42 10speed.

A 7/8speed 10-46 cassette would be plentyfull for everything while beeing way less painful to adjust.
Please- the SRAM E Bike group is obnoxious expensive.
  • + 10
 I've found nothing but grief with 11 speed shimano and 12 speed sram, am now running a 10 speed 11-46 sunrace cassette with xt 11 speed mech and 10spd slx shifter to accomodate it, 34t oval ring up front, more than enough gears to get me up all bar the stupidest climbs where it would just be quicker to walk anyway. Seems much more reliable than 9, 11 or 12 speed, but keen to try the new 8 speed e-cassettes on my normal pushy, old xt 8 spd lasted 20 years in between adjustments
  • + 10
 I went from a gx Eagle to a 9speed microshift and it works perfectly fine. Now if someone just made a light weight 9speed drivetrain.
  • + 0
 @ctd07: If you want more range, try the e13 10-42 ten speed. Its lighter than XX1, and has the perfect jumps between gears. It just shifts like crap with a 10 speed derailleur; I'm probably going to put an 11 speed derailleur on it soon.
  • + 1
 @Balgaroth: The biggest problem with Eagle is SRAMs "Type 2" clutch is now not a clutch and was in reaction to losing against the SHIMANO clutch patent. I liked the SRAM 11-spd with the stiff adjustable clutch. The EAGLE clutch is bird poop on your window every time you ride.

Can't wait to buy XTR and dump the Eagle load...
  • + 1
 @NotNamed:

Sunrace csm 680 8speed cassette almost gets you there, 11-40 but enough for 90% of ascents
  • + 4
 I really really like the SRAM X01 12 speed on my Epic. It just works, and works extremely well. I can't say the same for NX.
  • + 3
 @will-burr: I've had a lot of issues with Shimano clutches. Broke a couple. Also, Shimano's clutch can develop squeaking that is really annoying. It can be fixed, by servicing it, but it is an annoyance. I never had any problems with the 11 speed SRAM clutch.
  • + 2
 @NotNamed: that’s exactly what I keep thinking. I almost always shift 2 gears at once anyway. I could easily skip every other cog in the middle range and be happy with a wide range 7 speed.
  • + 3
 @tacklingdummy: Yep, I prefer the Sram cage lock over the Shimano adjustable clutch that needs regular service.

And you can't forget to switch on a Sram clutch.
  • + 2
 @PtDiddy: Agreed. I run their 10 speed group, and it is pretty much perfect except for the weight. I dont care if it is Micro Shift or an S-brand, but a wide range 9 or 10 speed that is light and flawless would be excellent.
  • + 2
 @pacificnorthwet: Let's wait and see what TRP comes up with.
  • + 1
 @tacklingdummy: Same for me no 11-spd XX1 clutch issues, but it was a real clutch that worked (pre-patent infringement). No issues ever with many Shimano clutches. But the NEW clutchless EAGLE derailleur has your chain banging relentlessly like ma kettle calling you home for dinner... Frown
  • + 16
 Yes. Shimano shifter and derailleur works with SRAM cassette and chain. It was easier piecing that together than trying to find a microspline hub in February....
  • + 6
 Yes Shimano shifter and derailleur work with Sram cassette and chain, the only issue is that there are issues when shifting when using Sram cassette and chain no matter the shifter/der combo. Remember 2005 and sounds just before breaking a chain or cassette teeth while trying shifting too fast on climbs? That’s SRAM in 2020
  • - 11
flag thenotoriousmic (Jun 27, 2019 at 3:00) (Below Threshold)
 @WAKIdesigns: meanwhile in the real world... youtu.be/kem5Rk863WA
  • - 2
 @thenotoriousmic: phhh, ride both back to back then come back to me. I have done it. The only one I haven’t ridden is 12sp XTR
  • + 11
 @thenotoriousmic: So a video in a stand of 11 speed means what? This is all about shifting under load.

If you aren't using the chain and cassette you don't get the benefits of the new group
  • - 1
 @WAKIdesigns: I do. I’ve got xt 11 speed and x0 11 speed on the bikes that I ride the most. Shimano is significantly worse especially on the downshift as clearly displayed in this video but whatever put the blinders on and think what you want.
  • - 2
 @TheOriginalTwoTone: it’s not relevant to the current 12 speed shimano could be better and if it is yes you only need the cassette and chain (maybe a new back wheel) I was just calling bullshit on waki again. Wink
  • + 5
 @thenotoriousmic: how can shimano be worse at downshifting when with shimano you downshift 2 gears at once and with sram you need to press the lever each time... and you say you call me out on BS - I mean hello...shfting under power has always been better with Shimano and some video of some bloke in a workshop is funny to say the least. When I ride with my buddy, him being on Eagle, I hear cringing noises and swearing all the time. He too changed from Shimano cassette just like me. If you are used to shifting of Sram, then yeah, no surprise you see no problem. Ride on Shimano cassette for longer period of time and then come back to SRAM, you'll see.
  • - 4
flag thenotoriousmic (Jun 27, 2019 at 7:07) (Below Threshold)
 @WAKIdesigns: i don’t see shifting down two at once as a good thing. I only ever shift once at a time up or down and I’d much prefer a fast smooth consistent downshift where my foot doesn’t slip of the pedal which happens all the time with my xt especially in the smaller gears. You can see in the video how faster and smoother sram shifts and you can see the chain snagging and jumping with the shimano and that’s not even underload. All the trails I ride are steep, tight and technical where you might only get half a crank to get into gear on rough ground. The old 11 speed shimano simply isn’t as good and yes I was shimano for the last couple of weeks.
  • - 2
 @WAKIdesigns:
Amen, riding 10and11speed sram and shimano and srams only advantage is weight. Rest goes to shimano
  • + 9
 @thenotoriousmic: if you had the option to double downshift, you would miss it when you lost it. My friend runs XT 11sp on his one bike and SLX on his other... He constantly complains about the lack of double click.
I have XT 11sp on my bike, I rented an Eagle bike and was constantly searching for that second detent.
  • + 1
 @thenotoriousmic: It's always dangerous to paraphrase Waki, but I think he's referring to durability and strength (not just shifting performance), and shifting under load. Back before Powerdome cassettes, I couldn't run SRAM cassettes because I would bend the cogs all the time. I think Shimano's smoother ramping made it so that there was less force on individual teeth. But... I think SRAM has come a long way with cassette design and ramping.

Today I run a SRAM XO cassette (11-42), Shimano XT derailleur, XTR shifter, KMC chain, and Wolftooth ring. The XO cassette is nice and light and ridiculously durable (being made out of steel; it's on it's 4th season now). For me, this is the best feeling system I've ever had. While I didn't mind the XO shifter and derailleur that came with the bike, I'm not a fan of that positive "clunk" in shifting, I prefer the silky smoothness of Shimano. But this is purely a preference thing, I totally get that some people find Shimano shifting vague.
  • - 3
 @slyfink: Same for me I only used shimano. I used to take anything sram of my bike and replace with shimano gears and hope brakes with out even using them to sell. Took sram gears off my last dh bike but left the codes on and were seriously impressed with them so decided to give sram a chance and have been impressed with pretty much everything I’ve used.
  • + 4
 @WAKIdesigns: @WAKIdesigns: Gripshift solves the issue for SRAM. You can dump as many gears as you want, up or down.
  • + 5
 @Offrhodes: man... I love gripshift. I run X0 9sp on my commuter and XX 10 sp on my fat bike. Super reliable, easy on cables durable and simple. I just wish it took less space on the bars up. It also looks super clean and is by far the lightest option. I bought an entire 10sp XX group set on Craigslist for $150. People have a negative impression but it works and works well.
  • + 14
 So with this system is shifting under power recommended, or use with discretion because your drivetrain will wear out faster?
  • + 8
 It’s recommended - the system is designed for that type of use.
  • + 5
 Excellent question btw
  • + 2
 I was listening to a podcast the other day with Nick Murdick, Shimano’s Mtb product manager. He said it’s not just recommended but the system actually requires force to work so the harder you push while shifting, the smoother it gets. Which is also why thy expect this tech to revolutionize Ebike shifting.

They went more than one direction with this stuff!
  • + 11
 Ok, cool- the cassette and chain in particular are an engineering marvel.
Everything is well made and works as advertised.

So Shimano, please hurry up and allow other manufacturers (specifically Chris King) to produce the new freehub.
Preferably before my current 11 speed cassette wears out.
If not, I’m going e-13 9-46 with my current XT/Xtr 11 speed kit.
That should get me through 2021...

Thanks in advance
  • + 4
 Yep. Running 15+ year old King hubs on more than one bike. For those of us who like durable, high performance, cost effective (over the long run) hubs, the big S can suck it. Unlike SRAM who let others use their driver technology. SRAM 12 speed is good, but not great shifting under power.
  • + 1
 +1 for e13
  • + 0
 @MikerJ: fortunately DT Swiss is one of the first manufacturers to deliver the new hubs. The star ratchet hubs are one of the most durable and cost effective designs out their.
I agree that it would be better to have more choice though.
  • + 1
 Same boat but with Hope. Just get the licenses worked out with the wheel mfgs already Shimano.
  • + 0
 Chris King will be one of the last to the party. That's how it's always been. T47 was an exception, but they were slooow with XD drivers. I wouldn't hold your breath, since they'll likely need to make a new bearing size for it. Just go to Onyx. The new Vesper hubs are a lot lighter than previous hubs. Or I9, if announcing yourself to everyone is your jam.
  • + 11
 I just wish they’d make an 11 speed, non-micro Spline XTR / XT Hyperglide+ cassette, but I guess if they did that no one would bother ‘upgrading’ to 12spd. I don’t need a 10t or 50t sprocket in my part of the world.
  • + 1
 I'm on board with 11 speed micro spline HG+ as well. I'll be happy to ditch hyperglide with it's notchy aluminum freehubs on DT or heavy steel ones on Shimano hubs.
  • + 9
 Too bad that even if you were a diehard Shimano fan you couldn’t get a decent bike with a Shimano drivetrain for two seasons now. I just bought a Yeti and it came with X01 and Shimano brakes. First non Shimano drivetrain I have ever had, we will see how it goes.
  • + 7
 Can't agree more. Been bike shopping and the lack of Shimano OEM spec is likely going to make me wait another year to see if they get back in the game for 2020/21 models.
  • + 11
 If someone switched brands they were never a shimano fanboy to begin with.
  • + 6
 Reprazent!!!
  • + 5
 Had my XTR 12 speed for 3 months, Used a KMC 12 speed chain with a Renthal sprocket , worked ok but not perfect. Fitted a Shimano hyper glide plus chain and a Wolftooth hyperglide Shimano sprocket, now perfect very smooth shiftering under load is insane, Very happy.
  • + 5
 I switched to sram ever since they pioneered the 1x system. Loved their 11 sp system, but their eagle is so damn finicky and doesn't seem to shift as crisp/consistent as their 11sp system. Sram also doesn't last nearly as long as Shimano and cost twice as much. I've been running the new XTR 12 speed for about 3 months now and I've been extremely pleased with the performance.. Paired it with a Raceface crank / wolf tooth shimano 12sp specific chainring and I don't see myself going back to sram anytime soon. It took them a while, but Shimano knocked it out of the park with this new 12 sp system.
  • + 6
 Shifting under heavy load. MAN, that only thing has me hyped, this is truly the only real revolution, thank you Shimano. Now waiting for it on 11 speed
  • + 3
 9100 is smoother than my previous Di2, and it’s so reassuring knowing it just works, and I won’t need to hunt around for a plastic b-limit guide when I’m adjusting the derailleur for the 15th time in a season, with a good likelihood it’s another eagle rd warranty.
  • + 4
 Whats the ground clearance on the rear derailleur cage like? I tried the Sram Eagle and on a 27.5 wheel it was a stick picker upper. Hung way too low to the ground. Wonder if this 12 speed unit got longer too.
  • + 3
 The cost of a full XTR drivetrain in Asia is quite lower than SRAM's XO1, about US$200 or so lower. The money you saved can be used to upgrade to the impressive XTR 4-pot brakes, which World Cup riders like Loris and Bulldog now prefer over the Saint.
  • + 3
 if i‘m not mistaken bulldog is just running XTR levers with saint calipers.
  • + 1
 @striveCF15: this is an amazing setup. Running xtr -> saints on my nomad.
  • + 1
 @striveCF15: www.pinkbike.com/news/bike-vs-bike-laurie-greenlands-and-brook-macdonalds-mondraker-summums.html

Check the link above. Bulldog is on the new XTR brakes, which are, essentially, a brand-new lever design on Saint calipers.
  • + 4
 Would have straight up bought them, but even the new xtr brakes still have the wandering bite point issue that has plagued shimano for the last 5? years.

Not relevant for everyone, but since I run my levers very close to the bars, changes in bite point is massively annoying.
  • - 1
 @striveCF15: Lever does 80% of the feel and power. I discovered that when switching my TRP Slate T4 levers to with some Shimano XT 4P levers, all of a sudden the XT 4P has became very low in power (some would say better modulation) while the TRP Slate T4 became much more powerfull. So a lever really makes or break a brake. Making Sram BS about their new caliper BS sound like even more BS.
  • + 1
 @Ttimer: I agree as this was a problem on my old Zees.

I am on the new XTR's now but it's been only about 20km worth of DH runs. The brakes are absolutely amazing but I do hope the bite point holds for the rest of the year.
  • + 0
 @Ttimer: Agree and have been weeding out Shimano brakes on my fleet due to this.
  • + 1
 @Verbl-Kint: the XTR 4P brakes are amazing in terms of modulation and power. Mine make noises though... Apparently the pads have to much clearance within the Calipers. Am I the only one having that kind of trouble?
  • + 1
 @Balgaroth: ha you got neg proped. The piston diameter in the lever in proportion to to pison diameter in the caliper is the determining factor of how much power your brakes have. People run Shimano levers with magura calipers . Some Shimano levers have servo wave. That's why Shimano brakes have more bite at the beginning stroke. Saints and Codes have close to the same power.
  • + 1
 @Sshredder: Ye I don't know why people neg my comment, this is real world observation, repeated twice actually. My Fury 2019 and my Force 2019 have some Slate T4. I tried first with some 2012/3 deore levers on the enduro and it made the brakes much more powerfull and definitely with much more bite. Putting some 19 XT levers on the Fury did the same. Also in the past I put those 2012/3 deore levers on the 2009 Shimano Saint caliper which also worked a treat also that was because I preferred the shorter lever blade and one of my lever was damaged.
And those Saint calipers now run on my do it all hardtail with leftover Slate T4 levers which is good enough, if anything it tamed down the bite. Testament to how much shimano brakes are bombproof as I never reconditioned those calipers.
I had some 2017 Code and while they were giving ok power I absolutely hated the way pads were way too close every time you put fresh pads int, even after removing some fluid in the lever.
  • + 1
 @tofhami: I agree. The XTR brakes are absolutely fantastic.

No noises on mine though, and I've tried them out on both rain and dust (note I've only done about 10 DH runs so far and maybe 15kms worth of trails). Are you using the Freeza rotors, by any chance? I'm using floating rotors.
  • + 1
 @Balgaroth: this is one specific case, it depends on the lever and caliper combo and your mileage will vary.

Also the lever has the fluid chamber and isn't just a lever, so it will indeed always make quite some difference.
  • + 2
 Shimano drivetrain has been shifting smooth since the beginning of late 80's with the XT group and I've been running hard with the 10-spd XTR drivetrain for several years now. The XTR groupsets are durable, easy to maintain, shifts accurately, and does have some backwards compatibility with older part versions. Looking at the clutch alone, it's very similar to all versions of their clutch derailleurs from SLX through XTR. Ordering Shimano parts from LBS is pretty painless as well. The only knock/gripe I have with the XTR part is the 10-spd XTR cassette. The rivets have annoying creaking like walking on hardwood floors or a rusted door hinge. Nothing can stop that frickin creaking! For that, I go with the cheaper XT, which does weigh a bit more. The Shimano XTR chains with hollow pins are actually really light, very strong, and durable. They don't stretch a lot - similar to the KMC chains. The XTR 10-spd chains kind of went out of market after the M981 models disappeared off the market and skipped a whole generation before re-appearing for this 12-spd version. The 10-spd XTR chain is lighter than 250g!
  • + 2
 Not sure if this has been mentioned, but the reason Shimano went with a 51T low gear was not to literally one-up SRAM, but has to do with the arrangement of the HG+ ramps. As far as I know they are setup roughly in groups of three, and 3 into 50 doesn't quite work.
  • + 3
 Speaking of mixing and matching...will this play nice with an Eagle crankset and chainring? If not does anyone know if someone makes a sram direct mount style chainring that will play nice with Shimano 12 speed gear?
  • + 1
 @mgrantorser: wolftooth components makes a shimano specific chainring for almost all chainring mounting standards. The shimano 12s chain will work on a standard narrow wide but there is increased noise and sometimes even a rumble like what you get when the narrow wide ring is worn out.
  • + 2
 Can I mix my 11s shifters with the 12s derailleur if I wanted it to ride 11s? The new one looks awesome
And will there be a 11s HG+ cassette? Any infos yet?
(couldn't find this on the previous comments...)
  • + 3
 I guess I'm in the minority here...my sram 12 speed is great and love it. However It's nice to see some choices in the 12 speed market popping up
  • + 4
 Will be staying with XTR 11 speed until they release the micro drive to decent hub manufacturers!!!
  • + 9
 There's plenty if your willing to open your mind from Hope
  • + 4
 @timbud: Pretty sure you can't get them for Chris King, Onyx, Tairin, Stealth and a few others. Hope weren't the only ones who didn't get invited to the party. That said, I love what White industries have done with developing a compatible freehub which doesn't need a license from Shimano.
  • + 7
 @Blackers: onyx uses dt- freehub body in a smart way so onyx has microspline.
  • + 8
 DT, i9, Onyx totally 'non-decent' manufacturers. Love Hope stuff, but there is more out there
  • + 1
 Will the Shimano Hyperglide chain work on my AXS system and improve shifting under power? Thanks.

PS. I have AXS and honestly preferred Eagle but am too lazy to swap back. It's close enough. And yes the lack of cable really is nice.
  • + 2
 You definitely need both the cassette and chain. Cog spacing is slightly different (about a mm across the whole cassette) but you might be able to get decent results using the sram shifter/derr
  • + 1
 @mgrantorser: the cassette spacing is slightly different, but I'd imagine that with the electronic shifting you could still get it to index perfectly because you arent limited by predefined cable pull from a shifter.
  • + 1
 Clearly Shimano XTR shifts better than Srams best offering.
If I wanted the best drivetrain the Shimano has a slight advantage. What is the durabuility of the micro spline free wheel?
If your going to build the ultimate bike you will probably go for custom wheels and a carbon crank.
Was there something wrong with the four bolt chain rings? Are the direct mount chainrings compatible with other cranks?
  • + 1
 Yo here's the goods. Pair the shimano dropper post lever with a fox transfer post super clean infinitely adjustable cockpit makes this group a winner alone. Precise shifting action and reliability blah blah yeah its all good.
  • + 1
 Happy to see Shimano back in the game! My Eagle XO1 RDs have been finicky since day-1, just bought SRAM’s plastic b-limit screw tool that you apparently have to use while sagged, so you need a friend to use it properly. This will probably be my 3rd RD warranty in 2 years.
  • + 3
 Pro tip, dont use the plastic tool,l. adjust the B-limit in the 2nd gear so that the tips of the pulley are almost touching the tips of the teeth of the big cog when you look at it from the side.
  • + 1
 @Nobble: I've been doing exactly this for a year. You're the first person I've heard confirming my reasoning.
  • + 1
 @Nobble: Thanks for the tip - I’ll try this.
What is it that you prefer about this method over the tool?
And when you say look at it from the side, is the non drive side the best view?
  • + 1
 @jon123rjk: I prefer it over the tool because I dont have to go find the tool and it works just as well. You should be able to see it just fine from the driveside.
  • + 1
 "The cassette installation is simple, but don't forget to install the small, almost clear spacer that comes with the cassette. It's an easy thing to overlook or misplace, but it's designed to help prevent any unwanted creaking."
My XTR cassette has always creaked. it can be temporarily appeased by slapping lots of grease round the freehub splines. needs to be repeated every few wet rides or the creak comes back. however i have not noticed anything that looks like an 'almost clear spacer'? am i missing a spacer i wonder? have checked the exploded view of the cassette and all of the spacers seem to be there?
  • + 2
 let me answer my own question. Yes i am missing a spacer.
si.shimano.com/pdfs/ev/EV-CS-M9100-4376B.pdf

none are available from Shimano till September. i am going to try and make my own out of helicopter tape.
  • + 1
 XTR 12 speed does shift better, for sure, but the shifter does not feel grea. Shimano just doesn't have that same satisfying feel as Sram, I would love to out a Shimano cassette, derailleur chain and chainring with a Sram shifter. I dont mind clicking twice or three times for the trade off of a better shifter feel.
  • + 1
 1. The article mentions cable pull. Does this mean if you wanted to, you could run a shimano shifter and sram derailleur? Or is it referring to the distance the derailleur moves per shift?

2. One pic appears to show a matchmaker clamp thingy that mounts the XTR shifter to a Sram brake lever. That is a part I am interested in purchasing. What is it?
  • - 7
flag WAKIdesigns (Jun 27, 2019 at 2:20) (Below Threshold)
 Haven’t tried the 12sp XTR yet but less leverage needed to activate the lever is not exactly good news. I hope they don’t go back to wine dick feel from 2003-2011 because that was really bad. Also, inevitably, shifting speed depends mainly on the cadence
  • + 1
 That would be a "Mismatch 2.2" by Problem Solvers, it connects Matchmaker to I-Spec II shifters (or EV, however the new one is called. They're compatible/basically the same from what I've seen).
Great product, used it for about a year before switching to Formula brakes.
  • + 1
 I'm pretty sure Wolftooth is also making similar adapters.
  • + 1
 Thanks to both. I saw that Problem Solvers one, but did not know if Ispec 2 was the same as EV.
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: I wouldnt say less leverage, the feel is still extremely crisp just less cable resistance with the polymer coated cable.
  • - 2
 @bighit117: good to hear! I am so satisfied with my 11sp XTR that I may give 12sp a go in 10-46 package.
  • + 3
 How about an 8 speed cassette with just the top biggest cogs....don't think I've ever really used an 11 or 10 tooth gear.
  • + 4
 singlespeed till the day i die
  • + 1
 Not much to climb in the 'peg Wink
  • + 1
 Honestly when I was at my peak cycling skill, I thought there was no point having gears. It seemed to me if I could climb it with gears, I could climb it without them. I think I'm kind of messed up health wise though, and can't decipher the advantages, or whatever, my health is too bad to make judgement.
  • + 1
 After playing with Shimano XT derailleur and shifter I discovered that they don't work together,at the end of the cassete it works ok but in the middle you have to push/pull twice to get the proper gear.
  • + 2
 @mikekazimer how it's chain slap regarding SRAM derailleurs ,I think Shimano has a stronger spring and SRAM regarding that sucks,did you feel Shimano it's quieter?
  • + 4
 So what you're saying is that Shimano's 12S is better than Eagle. Got it.
  • - 3
 While trying to convince everyone that spending the money for a new freehub is a great idea and most importantly - worth it.
  • + 2
 We've got an ebike with this groupset, it will shift up/down climbing a hill while towing a normal bike + rider of the back of it at 25k's with no complaints.
  • + 1
 I was just about to place my order for a Shimano 1x12 setup and then remembered 'SplineGate' vs Hope argument. Oh well, Eagle again for me then as there is no way am replacing my wheels too!
  • + 1
 @mikekazimer I'd love to hear your thoughts on the XTR 4 piston brake compared to a Code RSC brake. I have the new XTR 2p brakes on a bike and I think they are pretty horrible but I imagine the 4p are a lot better. Thoughts?
  • + 2
 I prefer the Code RSC brakes, in large part due to the pad contact adjust feature. I've also found them to be more consistent, with less of a wandering bite point.
  • + 1
 @mikekazimer: does latest XTR/XT still have wandering bite point?
  • + 1
 I have SRAM x01. If I wanted to switch once mine wears out, I suppose I could still run my x01 cranks and a boost chain ring correct? Or does Shimano have something different going on with the chainline
  • + 1
 @mgrantorser: nah still 51mm chain line, you need a shimano 12s specific ring though, wolftooth makes them more most chainring mounting systems
  • + 1
 @CullenHerring: thanks for the info!
  • + 2
 @mkazimer from a wear standpoint how many days approximately have you ridden the group? Can you check the chain and state the wear?
  • + 1
 What about combo of AXS der/shift with XTR Casette, chain, chainring. Best of both worlds? Wireless + shift whenever you want?
  • + 2
 The colorful tags are for Pride Month everyone. Calm down you bigots, they'll go back to a monochromatic scheme in July...
  • - 1
 It's worth noting that technically, Shimano's Di2 MTB drivetrain and SRAM's Eagle AXS drivetrain are still the best shifting under load, because they have an electronic motor that is programmed to accurately and precisely shift under any type of load.
  • + 13
 Just swapped from XTR to AXS. Despite a lack of electricity, the XTR shifts way better
  • + 10
 Have you tried both Hyperglide+, Di2 and AXS? Only Hyperglide+ is designed to be shifted under full load both up and down, so even if the electronic ones might be able to force the chain into the right cog, it doesn't mean they are better and it will certainly cause excessive wear and tear.
  • + 4
 The only people who love Di2 or AXS are

1. Journalists (who don’t pay for this stuff)
2. Seasoned shop employees (buying it at the price of standard XTR/XX1),
3. Folks owning 500sqm apartments/lodges in Whistler or Aspen (so that’s pennies for them anyways)

...and a few lost souls who convinced themselves these are worth 5 months of their salary after paying bills and food.
  • + 30
 Focus a bit more on your working instead of wasting your life here Waki and you might be able afford it all with a bit of effort.... Its a completely pointless task peering over people fences and criticising them because your jealous. Quit your whining and start making positive changes in your own life first
  • - 18
flag WAKIdesigns (Jun 27, 2019 at 3:48) (Below Threshold)
 @timbud: do you feel good about yourself while writing it? Tell me, how much better do you think you are than me at life, riding, whatever? Pardon me but you just gave me a life advice I assume you must feel quite well about yourself. Where does that come from?
  • + 13
 I know I feel better about my life than you do about yours, because all you ever seem to do is criticise and try to put people down. Those are not the actions of someone who is content and happy with their life.
Plus I'm just packing up my bikes and gear for 3 weeks in the Alps. So yeah, my life is pretty sweet at the moment. Big Grin
  • - 12
flag WAKIdesigns (Jun 27, 2019 at 4:12) (Below Threshold)
 @timbud: do you want me now to defend myself and tell you stories about my riding, my job, family, how I love my wife and how she loves me? My relation with my kids? Whether I got promoted or not? What is my relation to my boss and colleagues at work? What do you think you are doing here, knowing NOTHING about me? Ever watched a stand up? Seen a comedian with an act that is 80% positive about something?
  • + 20
 @WAKIdesigns: And yet you know everything about people buying Di2 and AXS?
  • + 5
 Dude your attitude and the way you conduct yourself on here reveals a lot... regardless of all that stuff I don't know about you. Just look at the negative route you're then this thread down, for instance.
  • + 5
 @timbud: I quite like Wakis Comments, he’s clearly a down to earth fella.

Clearly your missing his point! Have fun in France.
  • + 1
 @timbud: What do you think is better about XTR over AXS?
  • - 14
flag WAKIdesigns (Jun 27, 2019 at 4:51) (Below Threshold)
 @Crossmaxx: same as people who buy Enve. Lost souls. Like one of my best friends. He sobered up after he broke one on one of firts rides. So will every lad with a bit of sanity who will wreck a 250$ rear mech, not to mention 500$ for XTR. My very good friend installed Di2 on his DH bike mainly to fk with people. He also wanted to mount Di2 on his Trek Ticket and put eleven 16t cogs on the cassette. Only to fk with people.
  • - 14
flag WAKIdesigns (Jun 27, 2019 at 4:52) (Below Threshold)
 @timbud: so it's my fault the route this thread went down. Really? Take your personal issues to personal message. This is what they are for. Have fun in Alps. Nobody has as much fun as you do
  • + 16
 @WAKIdesigns: You seem to like dishing out cr*p left, right and center, but when stuff is coming your way, you get really offended. Not very cool (in fact, quite childish).
  • - 10
flag WAKIdesigns (Jun 27, 2019 at 5:07) (Below Threshold)
 @Crossmaxx: I thought it was you who got offended about Di2? I am enjoying myself. call me if you want. Easy to find on hitta DÅLIG STÄMNING. Vill du snacka på happy kanske hahaha
  • + 10
 @WAKIdesigns: Then you thought wrong, no idea how you came to this conclusion. Maybe read again, more carefully?
  • - 1
 Shimano HG+ all day everyday loco! AXS ain't even a match for the current 11sp Di2 …

Next year, when a 12sp di2 will be release, it's going to be fun !
  • + 8
 @Euskafreez: Lost soul here. I'm quite enjoying my AXS setup, it's been flawless. The fewer cables the better! After owning a Scott I have nightmares about too many cables.

I'm 44 years old and have run Shimano and SRAM extensively over the past 25 years. IMO it's a little ridiculous to get so bent out of shape on what is better. I've never been extremely unhappy with any drivetrain I've run except for an Eagle NX group which just felt cheap and doubled the weight of my bike. Even Eagle GX had been okay aside from the mech getting a bit sloppy after a year.

That being said, I'd freaking love to see a 9sp or 10sp 9-46 or 10-46 setup. The weight, lack of durability, cost, etc. of 12sp is jsut not needed.
  • + 6
 @WAKIdesigns: 5 months of salary after bills and food? Whagght.. Think u need a better job bro!
  • + 4
 @mtbgeartech: My AXS has been flawless too. Couldn’t be any easier to set up. The fewer cables the better. Shifts perfect every time. Shifts under load. Just the touch of a button. Can set it up to shift two or three (or continuous) at a time. It’s a great system.
  • + 5
 This new XTR shifts way better than anything else ... but you have to change the way you shift. If you baby it, it feels just a bit better than the old XTR. If you learn to shift under more load it is flawless and quieter. At first I wasn't impressed and thought I wasted my money with the “upgrade” but now I’m completely sold with how good it is and I’m putting it in my second mtb too.
  • + 5
 @mtbgeartech: Well as you said, if you came from a Scottt it's normal that you're having nightmares about cables. With ou without AXS their twin-lock solution is a visual mess.

But look at a di2 equipped bike from tour de France, do you see any cables? No you don't, so if you want to hide the outer-cables on a di2 mtb you can.

AXS works as cable-actuated drivetrain, nothing more nothing less. Di2 or Campy EPS on the other hand rely on proper fly-by-wire to improve shifting in any conditions on a given chain/cassette/chainring. Di2 shifts faster and better. Why? Because components talk to each other few times during 1 sec. Something you can't do with a wireless drivetrain as of now with the AXS or the old eTap. Why? Wireless drains too much battery.

There is a reason if the pro on the road don't want to use the AXS from Sram. I don't give a d*mn about the name of the better solution. As of now the HG+ from Shimano annihilates both Sram Eagle and Eagle AXS.

Look at the price of a rear AXS mech. I'm sorry but it's quite expensive, and even worse, Sram had the brilliant idea to put the brain of the AXS inside the rear mech, making it even more expensive than the old etap. The di2 'brain' is in its battery, well protected as it should be.

I banter about drivetrains because I know and have used them all because of my job. Like it or not, in terms of shifting performance the 12sp from Shimano is killing it with it's HG+. Having one less cable … what a big deal!
  • + 9
 @WAKIdesigns: Waki, your wife and family may love you tons, but I GUARANTEE they have no idea how much you post on this website or the tone you almost always take. Just think about it...
  • + 0
 @Euskafreez: Di2 is antiquated and I don't give two shits about what skinny roadies use. I don't want to fish cables and batteries all over the place and the difference in speed of shifts is negligible on the trial. Wireless FTW!

BTW, none of this matters...
  • + 3
 @jon123rjk: I happily recommend both.
Personally I prefer the shifting of the XTR, but I love the AXS more. Its f*cking cool and makes me feel a little bit better about the rest of my shitty shitty life.

@WAKIdesigns standup comedians almost exclusively perform on stage and most of what they do is in the delivery. There are plenty that have positive routines (Milton Jones, Michael McIntyre, Micky Flanagan)... Its all about their outlook on life.
  • + 2
 @timbud: THIS! I am SO much cooler now that I have AXS. In my mind at least...
  • + 3
 @WAKIdesigns: The only people who love Di2 or AXS are...

Why would anyone get offended from this? Would someone please explain.
  • + 3
 @mtbgeartech: Exactly. I’d say there’s roughy a ZERO chance the next mtb Di2 will have all those different wires of various sizes and junction boxes and battery in the steerer tube and that ridiculous monitor on the handlebar.
If it does it will be as unsuccessful in mtb as the current gen Di2.
There’s a reason why mtb Di2 never took off, despite how hard Shimano pushed it. They even tried with XT with basically no result.
Meanwhile AXS, even with the price, has been much in demand. Just wait till it trickles down, which it will.
Wireless shifting will be ubiquitous in a few years once the tech trickles down. Given the choice, if price isn’t a thing, would you really prefer a cable system over a wireless one?
  • - 5
flag WAKIdesigns (Jun 27, 2019 at 8:12) (Below Threshold)
 @jon123rjk: The real goof will be if Shimano drops Di2... it would make Sram look like idiots.
  • + 1
 @timbud: It's pretty cool. I haven't tried the new XTR and I'm sure it shifts great. I'm not convinced better than AXS, but even if it was marginally better I'd never go back to mechanical shifting again. The lack of a cable, the click of a button - I'm completely sold. Speaking of cool features, not sure if you have a Garmin but you can pair your AXS to one, so you can have the battery level display plus a readout of what gear your in.
  • + 3
 @Euskafreez: Criticize AXS all you want but you're dead wrong about the battery. It's a non starter. It's just not an issue. It lasts for a minimum of 25 hours, some have had 40 hours between charges, and takes under an hour to charge.
Plus I'm really not sure why we're talking about road systems. It's completely irrelevant here. Seems to me Nino Schurter is doing ok with his AXS set up.
  • + 1
 @jon123rjk: Well it looks like you did not understand what I was talking about. I did not talk about AXS autonomy …

I said that because Sram went wireless, they couldn't do what Shimano or Campagnolo do. Every di2 or eps components talk to each other at least 10 times per second. Why? Because it doesn't drain power down as much with a fly-by-wire. And it gives the di2 or the eps a clear advantage in terms of shifting performance. Only FSA has a wireless drivetrain with a shifting performance on par with di2. Why because they have a way bigger battery than what Sram has.

25 to 40hrs well that's nice … What about every 3 to 6 months?

Nino Schurter had issues with the AXS and he HAS to use it.
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: thats a road groupset
  • + 4
 @Euskafreez: this is why I want to upgrade. If I can stand up and Sprint while dropping gears under full load then Shimano wins hands down.
If I can misjudge a tech climb and shift gears while climbing without skipping or horrible noises coming from my cassette Shimano wins.

If Shimano were to add hg+ to their m8000 m9000 lines they would put sram on the ropes.

I'll take the 11spd cassette that is only 30grams more then my current xx1 10-42.
Sounds great only I can't give them my money because I am on Chris King hubs.
  • + 1
 @reverend27: Well give a go to the new HG+, but give it a go on a full Shimano 12sp drivetrain (chain/cassette/chainring/rear mech/shifter). No mis-match if you want to judge it for what it is really capable of.
  • + 1
 @Euskafreez: So on paper these wired systems communicate more frequently than AXS. Yet, somehow my AXS shifts absolutely perfectly and flawlessly on the trail. The frequency doesn't matter on the trail. There is no real advantage in real life.

25 hours is plenty. Charging is easy. Wires are stupid.

Road is irrelevant to this discussion. You'll get hit by a car before frequency of communications matter.

Nino absolutely does not have to use it. No way he or his sponsors would sacrifice wins with inadequate equipment.
  • + 2
 @reverend27: the most amazing part of 11sp XTR is that you can shift while mashing a really hard gear at low cadence on a steep climb. Neither 11sp nor 12sp Sram cassette can do that, especially few gears at once. I don’t know how can this even be a discussion. Every single sram drivetrain that I rode recently and hear around on other peoples bikes makes noises of metal wire being thrown into a garden shredder. Unless you are careful with shifting. WithM9000 you can shift carelessly
  • + 2
 @WAKIdesigns: you are exactly right. But it seems you are getting downvited by sram fanbois who thought Shimano dead a few months ago.

It sad people have to latch on to purchases like it's life or death.
  • + 1
 @Euskafreez: all you really need is the chain and cassette. That's where the magic happens.
  • + 1
 @reverend27: the chainring is very important in this setup.
  • + 2
 @reverend27: chain and cassette are not enough to make the best of it. You also need the rear mech and the shifter. Cable pull ratio is not the same between HG+ and Eagle, not by much though. Same goes for the spacing between the cogs, it's close but with more than a mm in total. Setting up a full HG+ drivetrain is much easier and faster than a mis-match of Sram/Shimano.

Now that we can mix SLX, XT and XTR it's cheaper to go HG+. Being able to mis-match is cool don't get me wrong, but that's not the way to go with 12sp.
  • + 2
 @Euskafreez: you've no idea lol.
Yes axs drains more battery and that's an issue. I'd rather use di2 because of that.

It otherwise works just like di2. Both systems communicate in a few milliseconds, not a second.
  • + 2
 So Shimano took 3 years to address all the issues that the Eagle groupset has. It would be ridiculous if they didn't.
  • + 3
 Ill stick with my XX1. I like it.
  • + 1
 Lol. Shimano. Just waiting to whip out the 36 speed.
  • + 0
 Regarding the colour keys beneath the main article on the main page, I personally like them as if you click on any of them then they take you to related articles and reviews, saves trawling through multiple pages.
  • + 1
 Crazy to me that they’ve never conjured up a carbon XTR crank option. Seems like there’s plenty of demand for carbon cranks
  • + 1
 actually, the weight of the series XTR crank is supposed to be less then 550g. If you then add the 20g for the protection hoods (that you definitevely need for carbon) on the srams, it's 508g vs 550g...
  • + 2
 FC-M9120-1, 32T, 175mm, w/o BB, 534g
  • - 1
 Kazimer, you crack me up. What does a modern 2x system have to do with your inability to get some poorly engineered fd working back when you were a shop monkey? Front derailleurs still have their place and some of us still like them. Deal with it.
  • + 0
 Agree completely and sideswings are so easy to adjust and work great
  • + 1
 Over 10k miles combined on my two Shimano 3x10 setups and they don't ever give me any problems really.
  • + 1
 @mikekazimer: I may have missed it but how do you appreciate the silent rear hub? Did you test these or were you running another hub?
  • + 6
 The silent hub got cancelled.
  • + 2
 @Crossmaxx: Ah, completely? That's a bummer, I felt that was the best thing about it all. I thought they just canceled the new 11 speed XTR hub (with wider flange spacing), which was a bummer too as I thought wide flange spacing makes enough sense for those who don't need the huge range or who'd ride with a front mech anyway.
  • + 1
 @vinay: they cancelled a silent hub once before this as well, i forget exactly when I had one, 15+ years ago. No idea what the problem was, mine was stolen when new from beside a tent in France.

Maybe 3rd time lucky....
  • + 2
 @Riggbeck: If that day come and they give up on their damn BB/Cone system I'd get one rightaway.
  • + 0
 @Balgaroth: I am with you there, I had a pair of XTR wheels that were killed internally by British mud. Could not find spare inner bearing surfaces to press in so had to trash the wheels/relegate them to a city rat bike.

Not sure I am keen on silent hubs, makes it easier to steal the bike.
  • + 1
 ...and here I am still running a modded extended range 10speed, 32 x 11-42. For sure it's Shimano though. Always Shimano on the MTB and double-tap on the road.
  • + 1
 The bleeding eyeball theory behind PB's dayglo colors really does make the most sense. Really screws up a white t-shirt, too.
  • + 4
 Free Microspline!
  • + 2
 Shimano Gruppo?!?!? www.nycthincrust.com/location/gruppo-thin-crust colour me interested.
  • + 1
 @mikekazimer Do you know the cost of the Microspline FH body? Any idea on which if any hubs it can be retrofitted to?
  • + 2
 The freehub body price will depend on the hub manufacturer - it’s not a Shimano part. I think the DT Swiss Microspline freehub is around $80.
  • + 1
 @mikekazimer: could we get a review of the xtr drivetrain by someone that weigh more then 230lb ? I give up on shimano after so many broken chain and derailler ! Been on x01 for 5 years now and not a broken chain or derailler ! No problem at all !
  • + 1
 By the time my 11spd is worn out I will expect something new so I should stop reading these articles.
  • + 1
 Would I need to replace the whole lot if I have the current 11 speed XTR? If not, which bits oh PB oracle?
  • + 4
 You don't need to replace anything if you're happy with what you have Wink . If you want 12 speed, it seems to me you need a new rear hub or at least a new hub body (if you're running DT wheels), cassette, mech and shifter. And you'll probably want to replace your outer cables when you're at it or if you're currently running Di2. The cranks should be fine though. I don't expect they changed anything about the front mech and shifter either.
  • + 1
 @vinay: Yeah f**k that, I'll just stick to getting stronger.
  • + 3
 You can probably keep the BB.. And waterbottle cage.
  • + 1
 I feel so dirty... I'm a total luddite with my 2x10 and no desire to change Wink
  • + 0
 I won't be riding any of this for several years, but having seen the way even mid level racers go out of the gate, I have no doubt these will sell very well.
  • + 1
 I would've liked to have read an explanation of how the engineers pulled off the shifting under load thing.
  • + 3
 Do XT now
  • + 1
 Still unanswered: How about running a Shimano 12sp Shifter with SRAM Eagle derail? Have anyone tried?
  • + 1
 Yes it does work well - youtu.be/aLrhdscfjhs
  • + 0
 You didn't add the weight of the chain guide in the weight calculation. Is it there because Shimano's teeth don't hold the chain as well as SRAM's?
  • + 1
 Still not really enough 40t+ narrow/wide chainrings available to make the most of the extended range.
  • + 0
 I'm loving the colored keywords on the main page, it makes it easier to quickly find things from the category I'm interested in.
  • + 1
 why would you compare XTR, shimano's flagship group to X01? wouldn't XX1 be the better comparison???
  • + 0
 Wow ,trouble setting up a front mech , maybe a hack is a better career choice for you . Ha ha .
  • + 1
 Current feeling - excitement
  • + 0
 sram is 98 grams less that the XTR but the actual cost of sram might be heavier than the later...
  • + 4
 Lighter drivetrain and wallet - "I see this as an absolute win!"
  • + 1
 2x12 could convince me to against my #triple4lyf thing
  • + 1
 Why would you ever need that much range?
  • + 1
 @lognar: touring on a tandem.
  • + 1
 @lognar: super steep climbs and VMax attempts/ embarrassing roadies
  • + 0
 for me x10 transmission + 44 extender is enough... which advantage i can get by switcing to x12? but it looks nice anyway
  • + 1
 Who's riding XTR? I want to know how much the XT drive train will be
  • + 1
 Microspline, no thank you.
  • - 2
 I think the Shimano 12 speed is all pretty cool, but the microspline driver kind of ruins it, I don't want to have to get a new hub to get a drivetrain like slx.
  • + 6
 Everyone said the same thing with XD came out. Micro spline is the new Shimano standard. Few years you wont see the old cassette style which is 30+ years old
  • + 2
 I believe many aftermarket hubs will permit you to retrofit the Microspline FH body. I'm told that's the case with my Hydras.

However, it would have been helpful to include the cost of the new FH in this piece (but perhaps the cost is unknown.)
  • + 1
 But... did it blend?
  • - 2
 If only we could get one hub standard for 12 speeds. Now that I went with XD I don't have a choice but to stick with Sram.
  • + 1
 Or use the new Shimano shifter if you prefer that feel vs SRAM, shifter and RD once XT is out. E13 cassettes for the XD driver just fine. Lots of options. Mixing SRAM and Shimano works just fine - youtu.be/g4l_O1qtJ8I
  • + 1
 @mevnet: the e thirteen cassette does have good range but you still lose a gear compared to 12 speed. Coming from Shimano SLX 11 speed the shifting was more smooth and less clunky than my current GX eagle. It would just be easier if everyone committed to one hub standard but then how would they make money off the already expensive hobby?
  • + 1
 @stumphumper92: @mevnet I'm running 11 speed e13 trs race cassette, xt der, xt chain and xtr shifter. Not happy with the performance of the e13 cassette. Clunky shifting, skips 3 gears when backpedaling and acts like it has both too much and too little cable tension.
  • - 1
 Niiiice work Shimano
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