Roval Releases New 1,450 Gram Control Carbon Wheelset

 Interesting. Did you purchase their "lifetime warranty" upgrade on initial purchase? Everyone I know running LB carbon rims has been every bit as happy as w/ Ibis, Santa Cruz, Specialized, etc. so I've been considering them for my next build. If their warranty/replacement dept. is a nightmare, then I will definitely skip the warranty extension option.

 Wonder what was the reason? I broke 2, both in a hard case scenario with sub 10psi onto a sharp rock. First time I literally said "I rode the rockiest trail in Whistler on 10psi and it broke at the very end on a sharp rock", their only question was whether would I mind paying for the shipping of a new rim. Second time was similar situation a few years later, they offered 10% off which I couldn't afford at the time so I had to turn it down. LB then offered the higher tier crash replacement which I could get once I got my s**t together, so I'm pretty satisfied with their customer service so far!
Not to mention I'm impressed by their rims from how nicely they build through ride feel to durability.

 They’re not all created equal. I’ve broken a few brands of carbon rims. Now I only ride We Are Ones.

 @MrDuck: Sub 10psi? Were you on a fat bike?

 @Apfelsauce:
I saw 5 broken we are one rims at the last Kamloops Enduro... I hate to say it but noone is making a carbon rim that doesn't break but the good companies take care of you and that's what counts.

 @ski-or-die: No I didn't pay attention to my sealant levels and didn't check pressure before the ride.. Obviously I noticed it's low when I got off the lift but it didn't feel that soft so I figured I'd top it up at the bottom, but forgot to hold back on the way there...

 @MrDuck: I have the same story. Amazing service from LB.

 @Apfelsauce: I blew my wao, amazing and fast warranty!

 If you've bought a pair, you convince yourself you notice that feeling. :-). If you haven't bought them and try them? . . . . er, yes and no.

 Carbon rims make a really cool sound when rocks hit them compared to alloy.

 Ive found a lot less truing needed

 @noplacelikeloam: I think that’s my problem, I’m such an average rider that even if I shelled out the money for carbon wheels I don’t know if I would notice a difference. ...or maybe I should just go for it and report back

 Probably the 400g of weight saved

 @MikeyMT:
Agreed. I haven’t had to true a single set of carbon wheels I’ve ever owned. My Ibis 942s are on their 4th year and still straight after at least 10k miles. They just stay straight forever seemingly. I am not being gentle.

 @Nevets311: This made me laugh haha

 I’ve dented plenty of ally rims, i’ve never cracked a carbon rim.

Although I still way prefer ally on my hardtail.

 @gofastdrinkbeer: Also, a lot of people dont like the feeling of carbon. Sure they are stiff, but do you always want that, are you chasing down podium dreams?? A little compliance goes a long way to making your ride more enjoyable. Save the money, buy some lessons and destroy your buds with their carbon hoops.

 Honest answer: durability and weight.

I weigh ~190. I used to go through aluminum rims all the freaking time. With maybe 500-1000 miles of riding a year on primarily XC style trails, I was having to have my rims trued 2x a season and needing new wheels about every 1.5 years. Not because I was hucking big stuff to flat or running into jagged rocks, just from very normal wear and tear.

I got a pair of WeAreOnes at the beginning of 2019 while I was prepping for the BCBR. Rode over 1600 miles that year, 900 in 2020 and I'm at 450 this year so far.

They're still perfectly true. The spokes are all tight, and they haven't touched a truing stand.

On the weight thing, rotational weight is the most noticeable weight on your bike. You can definitely achieve much bigger weight savings on your wheels by switching to a lighter tire, but last time I did that (also in the leadup to the BCBR), I had two bad crashes in the space of two weeks, said forget that and went back to my DHF/DHR happy place.

Still, your average rider probably wouldn't notice an honest difference if you took 300 grams off their frame, but I expect they would if you took it off their tires or rims.

Carbon rims are expensive, but with many companies offering lifetime warranties, I think it's an investment worth making.

 In a race setting they should be a bit stiffer, better power transfer, weight. As others have said you probably won't need to true them and dents don't really happen. And no, the dents are not replaced by cracks as some of the nay sayers will have you believe.

 @gofastdrinkbeer: Brakes and suspension - rim material is low priority.

 Not as much of a difference as if they were laced to an EXP hub, apparently

 I don't have to true my wheels multiple times a season like I do with alloy.

 @Nevets311: when rocks hit carbon. Gg wp

 @atourgates: Similar experience here. I have WAO rims with DT 350 hubs from 2018 that I’ve absolutely hammered and they are as true as the day I got them.

I’ve been racing and riding for 25 years and have ridden a LOT of wheels, and I can’t really tell a difference in feel between alloy and carbon.

 Lifetime warranties and no fault crash replacement policies, really. I don't think any alloy wheels come with those (but I could be mistaken).

 @MikeyMT: THIS. I haven't trued my wheels in over 2 years. Yes, it doesn't take long to true wheels, but when you have limited time, and limited attention, the ROI on having one less thing to worry about and giving your attention to enjoying the ride, is more than what carbon wheels cost over alloy counterparts. (Just take your hourly wage x the amount of time you true + the amount of time you think about whether your wheel is wobbly...)

 They do feel different. I always say carbon rims are like aluminum hardtails compared to a steel hardtail. At the end of the day both are going to beat you up, but there is something about steel that isn't as harsh as aluminum. Same goes for carbon wheels they just feel a bit harsher. The flip side is they also feel snappier and I noticed the biggest difference in cornering, I never thought an aluminum wheel felt sloppy, but carbon wheels feel very controlled in comparison. My current wheels are aluminum, but when they break I will replace with carbon.

 Hmmm. I have had my fair share of both carbon and aluminum bikes and wheels. I’ve come to a very personal conclusion. My hard tail is alloy and I have carbon wheels on it (roval sl) With the blend of the two materials I find a nice sturdy ride. In my experience, carbon wheels don’t require the maintenance as alloy. My full suspension bike is carbon and has alloy wheels. Again.... I like the blend there between the two. I had a full carbon enduro pro and I put Enve M70s on it. That bike was shit after I put those wheels on. So after many years, that’s my opinion after trial and error. Now different carbon wheels from different manufacturers can vary is stiffness and I’ve noticed it for sure but that’s a totally different topic.

 For me, it's simply about not having to true the wheels all the time and not having rim dings. Yes. If you smack Carbon hard enough it will fail but I've had at least one carbon wheelset since about 2015 and only experienced one outright failure which was likely my fault for running a pressure that was too low for the trail. On the other hand, I just bought a brand new complete bike with alloy DT wheels and they have been a nightmare in terms of keeping them rolling straight and that's with inserts.

 @Rigidjunkie: And you are sure this isn't just the gazebo effect?

 If your bike already works and has wheels, the money would be better spent on coaching session and a trip. Pay a coach to help you with your riding, and also take a trip or two and riding your bike.

 No truing! I have yet to true a carbon wheel. I made the switch around 2015. I would break alloy rims all the time, and I've been using Chinese no brand carbon rims for the last 6 years with I think a lower failure rate than alloy. In 2014 I got a spesh enduro 29er, and 29er alloy rims flex so dang bad it drove me crazy. Pushing in a berm, and its almost comparable to running to low tire pressure and having the tire fold. The cheap carbon rims I use are stiff in that regard, but not stiff like old ENVEs where the ride feels harsh. Its a great balance. Just don't cheap out on hubs!!!!

 You’d immediately notice the pound of weight reduction at pretty much the most critical area one could, but you’d also get used to it in short order, and if you aren’t racing anyone -even yourself via Strava, then it’s not going to make you any happier or a better rider.

I say this as a guy who rides ridiculous 1220 gram wheels on every ride.

 Been running primarily carbon for 10 years, own three sets of Lightbicycle/DT wheel at this point.

Set 1: 1400 g, built around DT240s. Rode 10 years, relaced and repurposed on the gravel bike when hubs went to boost.

Set 2: 1550 G, built around DT 350s and enduro hoops. On the downcountry bike. Going on the 4th season of pretty damn aggressive riding. Never touched. I do keep pressure fairly high, and being a NW CA guy, lots of rocks are not a regular part of my diet.

Set 3. In the mail, XC again, maybe 1450. Going on the hardtail. Report back in 10 years...

Biggest thing I noticed other than reliability and weight was the change in steering precision. I almost crashed a bunch of times on my first ride, overturning stuff. You don't know the front wheel is flexing until it isn't flexing anymore.

 @noplacelikeloam: Some carbon wheels are much stiffer than others - gotta read a lot of reviews and take a couple chances to find out what you like. I got burned by a horrible riding set of Mavic Carbon Pro wheels (absolutely unforgiving ride), and have been very happy with the 3 sets of Rovals I've owned, which offer a good balance of snap, stiffness, and a welcome degree of compliance.

 @phromm: Agree. Had a pair of NOBL's that blow my hands out. I bought them second hand and I believe they were built for stiffness. Not a fan of that particular build as it is ridiculously stiff.

 Three things:

1. Weight. Strength for strength carbon rims are about 150gm lighter each. That is a substantial reduction in the most significant weight location on a bike (rotational).

2. Stiffness. As a big guy who generates a lot of torque, there is more lateral stiffness without a harsh ride in good carbon. I no longer rum my frame when sprinting up hill since getting WAO's.

3. Truing. I actually disagree with this point. Perhaps the improved lateral stiffness has some effect, but I'd be willing to bet it has a lot more to do with buying a high end hand built wheelset. I'd be willing to bet many of the folks commenting above are comparing to light alloy system wheels (low spoke count, atypical lacing) or lower quality. Having spent a long time as a tech I've never had an issue with wheels I built going out of true. Equal tension layered on after repeated fatuguing, 3x butted spokes and quality welded rim builds a solid wheel. FWIW ive also never had a wheel I didn't build stay true until getting my we are ones.

 @mgrantorser: Yeah, no matter carbon or aluminum, in ten years I've never had a wheel I built need truing, except for der in spokes or stick in spokes type damage.

 Up front: if you break a lot of alloy wheels, you will also break carbon, and replacements do not come cheap. If you can deal with that downside, the rest is pure upside: Carbon is lighter for the same strength, or stronger for the same weight than alloy. Since I chose the later, this means rather than killing an aluminum rim about once a year, I have upgraded to a design strong enough that I no longer break them. Carbon rims are also born perfectly true and round, and stay that way 'till they die. Since alloy extrusions must be bent into shape, the vast majority of alloy rims are born slightly out of true, and only achieve vertical & lateral trueness when built by a master wheelbuilder with perfect tension. Loss in spoke tension due to riding stresses allows the alloy rim to return to its natural, less-than-round state. Over the course of its life, if you impact the rim hard enough to bend it, then you have a new, even-less-round "natural" state. For me as an aggressive, yet lightly-built trail rider, carbon has been 100% performance and durability upside, with the sole downside of initial cost. If you are killing rims on a regular basis because you are pushing your bike to the limits of what the burliest aluminum rims can stand, then I'm not sure buying carbon rims at 3-5x that cost is worth it, even if they are potentially stronger.

 How long have you been riding, what kind of riding do you do, and can your bike budget absorb the entry fee of carbon wheels _that have a worthwhile warranty_? I've been pedaling about on knobbies since the late 80s, and finally have desk job that permits me to spend a bit more on my one and only bike for the steep and rugged terrain of the PNW. Can't say I would have sprung for such super spendy kit without these factors, personally. But this'll be my fourth season on carbon hoops (crank bros synthesis) on a long-travel 29er and I can say they're a big worthy upgrade that makes my rides more dependable and enjoyable.
If you're relatively new to riding, and and your budget is tight, then i say run what you've got. don't become bike-poor because you've dropped a thousand or three on wheels that aren't going to provide any measurable benefit for a few years or more.

 @noplacelikeloam: re lessons: The damn truth. Really can’t understand how so many people spend so much without investing in the most obvious upgrade possible. Guess it’s easier to blame the equipment than to admit it’s you.

 @noplacelikeloam:

Where do I get climbing lessons?

 @hllclmbr: username checks out!

 2 main reasons for me. Weight and width. If you race with any sort of extended climbs you are shooting for a sub 400g hoop. Hubs and spoke weight matter much less, you are accepting the rim and tire against gravity. A sub 400g aluminum hoop gets you stans crest at 23mm and *might hold together with a light elf of a rider. And you are more likely to rock strike that delicate wheel with your 2.25s or 2.35s because the volume is low with the narrow rim even though you're paying the weight penalty on the tire. Go to 26/27mm rims and you are looking at blunt ss at 425g or archs at 450g or whatever dt swiss around 430. These are noticeable climbing penalties and still don't allow you to get full width/weight benefits of a tire but at least you can ride them pretty aggressively. Then look at carbon. A 30mm internal rim is 350 to 400g for a solid all mountain rated rim. You run lower pressure because higher volume, more traction and less fatigue. Its lighter and climbs with less effort. And its likely more durable give all other parameters the same. To yall bragging about never truing, hope your check spoke tension a few times a season

 just faster, its that simple. for average joe who dont care for lighter and faster out the turns have alloy

 For a light weight trail/ XC bike for which these Rovals are built for, the weight has a real advantage. You can have lighter tires on that kind of bike and the rotational weight savings of carbon makes a ton of sense. Then you get the added benefit of durability on a light weight build. Makes total sense if you can afford it. And with some good DT hubs, these wheels look like a pretty good buy for the price.

Other than gained durability, I do shake my head in disbelief when I see people save 50g per rim on an enduro wheel build and then add 1100-1300 gram tires and 300 gram Cush Core inserts and brag about how much faster carbon rims are. The money may be totally worth it for durability, but the weight becomes much less of a factor.

 @atourgates: you did BCBR and only rode 1600 miles that year? I guess there’s hope for me yet.

 @atourgates: your point about durability and maintenance is spot on in my experience. I'm a little lighter than you, ~180, and I'm on the shreddier-side of riding. Nothing crazy, but lots of 4 and 5 foot drops and rocky terrain. I used to have to true my wheels fairly often and that's just gone away with carbon rims. The lighter weight is an added bonus, but I really love the durability. In my case it's one set of Reynolds rims and a set of the E13 TRS Race wheels, both have been great.

 "whatever goes up must come down"

Not really. GDP has it's ups and downs but the long term trend isn't a zero average, it's growth. It's possible that this level of demand is the new norm. It's unlikely, and we'll almost certainly see a dip at some point but there's no rule that says demand will return to pre-covid levels.

 @jeremy3220: Growth is not sustainable , period. This planet has a finite amount of space, water , air etc. The myth of unlimited growth has a strong following. It will eventually need to stop.

 @jeremy3220: Yes, we will see... I study industry averages, market trends, supply chain risk management, etc. I didn’t say the industry would crash, yet it’s likely to have a significant loss; but as you said: hopefully with a quick recovery and then a steadier market trend. However, if state-of-the-art technology enters into the industry and the prices go down and the availability improves then we could see a continuing upward trend. Moore’s Law of accelerating returns, e.g., bike and parts manufacturing using more automation, robotics, 3D printing, nano materials, etc., etc.

 @kmsafety: Moore's law? Bikes aren't transistors, nor entering into the nano-tech realm.. Not seeing the similarities here... plus, Intel has even stated that it has been harder and harder to adhere to Moore's Law as technology moves on and they feel that there is a finite limit to it. Heck, even Gordon Moore himself stated that a couple times.

 @liv2mountainbike2: mate, is your bike even 5G ready? UCI won't let you race next year.

 @liv2mountainbike2: Intel is a bad example, they want you to think that so their lack of innovation isn't noticeable, but that blew up in their faces over the last year...

 @DGWW:

I wonder why billionaires are investing in space?

If you look up, there’s an infinite amount of resources, plus if we can get heavy industry into space, it keeps this planet much cleaner.

One has to think big, though.

 @liv2mountainbike2: Intel and many other computer processing power technologies run the manufacturing machines that produce the bikes. Time will tell how much AI changes almost every industry... Heck, you name the industry—financial services, healthcare, retail, IT, automotive, entertainment—and it’s no stretch to say that AI is rapidly transforming the entire sector, and every company within. That includes the corporate world, government, academia, and non-profit organizations. AI is a powerful tool that enables us to reimagine how we utilize information, manage data, and discover insights for better, faster decisions.

What is your hands-on experience working with nanotechnology?

I could rattle off some names who predicted Moore’s law would not only effect computer processing power technologies, etc., but all other industries. I was using the law as an example of how it relates to exponential growth.

The Law of Accelerating Returns (Ray Kurzweil): “The rate of progress in any evolutionary learning environment (a system that learns via trial and error over time) increases exponentially. The more advanced a system that improves through iterative learning becomes, the faster it can progress.”

 @kmsafety: Moore's law is a ridiculous example though. The manufacturing of transistors scales very differently to bicycles and their parts. No amount of AI can change that.

 @DGWW: Simply get feminism to all the "developing" countries asap and their birth rates will level off to barely replacement rate, just like developed countries. Someone needs to lasso Big Red and drop her over Angola to save the planet.

 @DGWW: I cannot like this comment enough. "Sustainable" growth is more of a false flat. It's no where near as sexy to see as those exponential growth curves that everyone is tripping over themselves to achieve. But, at least we wouldn't be breathing methane and drinking ammonia.

 @sspiff: There is nothing ridiculous about it.

This is my last comment regarding Exponential Growth. For a technology to be “exponential,” the power and/or speed doubles each year, and/or the cost drops by half. Why can’t we learn from one another instead of writing that an opinion from a fellow MTBer is “ridiculous”? Exponential technologies are those which are rapidly accelerating and shaping major industries and all aspects of our lives. This obviously includes MTBs, which I’ve been riding for over 25+ years. My first decent MTB was a Cannondale Killer V with pepperoni ridgid fork, but how tech has change my current sled. The bike industry exponentially grows more and more every year! Exponential technologies such as robotics and autonomous machinery are producing bikes and parts; however, production is behind like never before. What will change this? The coronavirus vaccine? Or exponential technologies? Instead of getting so hung up on Moore’s law, which I correctly used within the context as it relates to central concepts to understanding exponential growth in the bike industry: let’s have a hopeful outlook on the future of the bike industry, and focus our energies on empowering others to create the abundant future we envision. Hopefully we will see this type exponential growth: because obviously there are no 2021 Stumpjumpers in stock at the largest and oldest local Specialized dealer in town and it’s possible will not see them until the beginning of next year. I, for one, would like to see more technologies enter the bike industry to be “exponential,” so that the power and speed of production doubles each year, and the cost drops by half!!! I’ve witnessed this growth firsthand working for a large global manufacturer who was behind on orders while facing he possibility of losing their largest investor and customer because of the shortage of supply and increase in demand. We brought in automated machinery and robotics, which used machine learning and AI tech: this resulted in production exponentially growing each month and faster than ever before. We also created more jobs, had no layoffs, decreased the prices, increased profits, produced leaner and greener, lowered employee injuries, improved reliability engineering, etc., etc. That was the point I was using as it relates to Moore’s law, but only as an example of an exponential mindset, which many of the leading thought leaders of our day believe that there’s no problem that we cannot solve when we apply exponential technologies and innovative ways of thinking.

Kind regards, KM

 @hllclmbr: sounds very similar to how Europeans thought about the new world. Billionaires are also investing in NFT artwork...

 @kmsafety: We're better at building bikes than we used to be and I hope that trend continues, but that's not Moore's law! If Specialized made 100,000 bikes last year and 10 years from now was making over 100 million, and billions a few years after, that would be something like Moore's law.

As a former process development engineer at Intel (and IBM too when they were still in the game) I understand semiconductor manufacturing intimately. Also worked at a small frame building shop in college mitering tubes and the like, and more recently visited the most automated carbon production line in the US. Manufacturing macroscopic, structural objects and semiconductors scales differently.

I'd argue that the bike industry hasn't, and won't, grow exponentially for any extended period of time. We're not riding exponentially faster, producing parts in exponentially larger quantities, things don't last exponentially longer, etc... Not saying I don't wish this was true. The last few years, bikes have gotten so much better, but I still don't know that this can be quantified as "exponential." I hope you can get a new stumpy evo sooner rather than later though! My wife snagged one and it's awesome... Good thing we ride the same size

 @sspiff:

Your point is well taken, but I did not come up with using Moore’s law in the context I wrote:

singularityhub.com/2016/03/08/will-the-end-of-moores-law-halt-computings-exponential-rise

www.businessinsider.com/ray-kurzweil-law-of-accelerating-returns-2015-5

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity#Exponential_growth

There are many sides to the prediction of computer tech, AI, machine learning, quantum computers, etc., and its effects on our lives, work, industries, etc...

mindmatters.ai/2021/04/new-book-massively-debunks-our-ai-overlords-aint-gonna-happen

futureoflife.org

I’m open to different views other than mine and don’t think others are ridiculous for expressing them. Many think Kurzweil’s ideas and predictions are ridiculous, except Google, but those who know him respect him. Appreciate your views and experience as well.

I’m an engineer too. Have my Master of Engineering degree in Advanced Safety and Engineering Management from University of Alabama and have worked in a variety of industries and fortune 500 companies over the last 25+ years. Have a close friend who retired from Intel as an engineer. Intel is a fabulous place to work!!!

Keep up with what Max is doing as well:

space.mit.edu/home/tegmark/technical.html

Retired, really I burnt out, but toward the end of my career began learning how to apply the following system safety engineering analysis tools to various systems, which included computer tech effects on various complex systems and human interaction with these systems:

psas.scripts.mit.edu/home

psas.scripts.mit.edu/home/materials

psas.scripts.mit.edu/home/stamp-workshops

Well, so much for that being my last comment, but since your reply was a little more encouraging, especially knowing you have the new stumpy...

 Seems like relevant content for the review above.

 I don't think the purpose of suspension is to make the bike "softer."

 You’re right we should just make the whole bike out of rubber or solid steel, no in between allowed. It’s almost like we want stiffness in some directions and squishiness in other directions and we’re chasing that perfect balance. I’ll agree most of it is bullshit though.

 Umm it's not. You want certain parts to have flex and certain parts to be stiff...

 @embi: That's what she said.

 You buy a carbon bike so that the frame is lighter, not so it's stiffer.

 Apparently I forgot the /s

/s

 Somehow it works because my bikes are amaaaaazing. Just got back from a three hour ride, felt so good.

 I don't know, man. Four figures for wheels!? I'm not about to ....roll...over to the industry giants that easily

 Custom set of WAO or Newmen rims on Onyx or DT240 hubs will be about that price, nothing proprietary, and won't say specialized on it.

 @JohanG: you need to check current pricing. Getting a set built like that will be $1600 at least

 That's not a good sign. JRA or full send?

 These are worth more than my current net worth

 Ok

 More expensive than my brother!