Update: What's Going On With Shimano's New XTR Group?
Even though Shimano announced the details of their new XTR gruppo eight months ago, it still hasn't officially hit the market. Yes, some of the components are available from European distributors, but as far as purchasing all of the parts needed for a drivetrain, including cranks and hubs, well, that's not going to be possible until March. You may have even seen a few "reviews" pop up here and there, but the parts in those reviews aren't the same as what's going to be available to the end consumer – in fact, they may never hit the market at all.
That's because there have been some relatively significant changes to the lineup, including the cancellation of the Scylence hub (for now), and the 11-speed cassette option. The M9100 cranks are also being revised, with the slightly heavier FC-MT900 direct mount crank being released in the meantime.
Nick Murdick, Shimano's MTB product manager, provided more details about the current state of the new XTR.
When will XTR actually be available? Have the parts that consumers are buying in Europe been officially released, or are those grey market / early sample items?
North American customers can expect to find new XTR complete groups at retailers around the first of March. In our market, we’ve chosen to hold off on shipping XTR components because the crank set hasn’t been available. Since several of the performance gains with the new XTR group were achieved through a system engineering approach, it’s not so easy to sub in another crank. Specifically, the inner plates on the chain being extended out beyond the roller are responsible for the improved driving efficiency and chain retention of the crank. That chain plate also plays a key role in the smooth Hyperglide+ shifting across the cassette even under extreme load while accelerating.
Other distributors and sales offices around the globe manage their own distribution, which may be why you’ve been able to find some parts through the European retailers you mentioned. As expected though, we’ve heard that the riders who have bought those components have struggled to find an acceptable crank solution. The new XTR chain might not fit on some chain rings at all. On others, it might vibrate while pedaling or wear out extremely quickly. If they switch to a different chain, the Hyperglide+ shifting goes away and at that point it really just isn’t an XTR group anymore. Of course, it’s up to every rider to decide for themselves what chain and crank they use, and we aren’t trying to get in the way of someone choosing another product that they like better, but at the same time, we don’t want to force people into that situation because we don’t have a crank to sell them.
What caused the delay?
The production process for the crank still needs refinement. It’s a good design, but mastering the mass production of it has proven difficult so we need more time to work on it. As a remedy, we’ve added a new crank to the line-up that falls in-between the performance and quality of the previous generation XTR and the new M9100 XTR group. It uses our tried and true hollow forged crank arms but it will use the direct mount chain ring that goes with the new group. The crank and chain ring will come in a stealth black color and subtle Shimano branding. It’s simply called FC-MT900, so you’ll hear us refer to it as “The Black Crank”. While not as light as the new XTR crank, at 587 grams it is lighter than the previous generation and also gets the improved driving efficiency and chain retention that comes with the new chain ring design. As soon as that crank lands in our US distribution center, we’ll begin shipping all of the new XTR components.
The Scylence hub lived up to its name out on the trail during the XTR press launch, but unfortunately the quiet coasting technology isn't going to be released, at least not this time around.
Rumor has it that the Scylence hub has been cancelled. Is that correct? If so, what's it being replaced with?
We have indeed had to go back to the drawing board on the design of Scylence - this one isn’t just a production issue. We still have faith that the concept can work and we’ll continue developing the technology, so if it’s possible to make it happen one day we definitely will. You’ve mentioned several times that the silent coasting was the stand out feature when you rode it, but there are actually several other good things going for the new XTR hub that remain. It uses these 100 tooth aluminum driver plates engaged by a helical spline on the back of the freehub body. That gives us a tight 7 degree free play angle with a very efficient and secure transmission of power from the cassette to the hub shell. With just about everything but the bearings being made of aluminum, we can make a very light hub too. The XTR hub actually won’t change much from the original design, we just need to keep the driver plates in contact with each other. The model number changes to FH-M9111 and it should be available right around the beginning of March like the rest of the components. Of course, there are other hub options in the market so we won’t hold the rest of the group if these hubs show up even a few days later.
Are any other components being modified from the first iteration?
There are no other modifications to the products that we announced, but there are two specs that have been cancelled. We recognized that our production capacity was spread a little too thin to keep up with demand so the wide flange hub (FH-M9125) and the 11 speed version of the cassette (CS-M9110) have been cancelled. At this time, we need all of the hubs and cassettes we produce to be the most popular specs. I think we’re going to miss the 11 speed cassette in North America – we were surprised by the positive feedback that it got and expected it to slowly gain popularity. There are really two benefits that might lead someone to choose a 10-45 11 speed cassette – dropping grams and gaining the ability to use a short cage rear derailleur. Luckily, the short cage derailleur remains in the line-up and it can be used with the 10-45 12 speed cassette. So riders who are looking for a derailleur that’s less likely to grab rocks and bounce around at high speeds still have a good option.
Are the delays having any effect on athletes getting their bikes prepped for the upcoming season?
Things are on track and we expect to have racers on XTR with the black crank at the EWS in New Zealand this March.
How about bike manufacturers - are there bikes sitting in warehouses still waiting for XTR to show up?
A few bike brands have been shipping XTR bikes since the fall, but yes, others have been waiting for cranks and or hubs. Pivot and Cannondale had already sourced their own custom crank solutions since they have frames that use a chain line that we don’t yet offer. Some other brands may now be investigating other options but it’s hard to get something custom made any quicker. Several brands will use the black crank and start getting bikes to riders around the same time that we’ll start shipping components.
Ideally, once a product is announced there's little, if any, delay before it's available for purchase.
Will the delays we’ve seen with the XTR group be improved with future launches?
It does seem like we’ve recently had more delays with new products actually coming to market, and that’s certainly been frustrating. While it’s not a good excuse, these have mostly been related to a new technology or a new production technique that hasn’t existed before. Since XTR was a ground up redesign, there were several of those new technologies that came with it. I’m proud that so many of them went so smoothly, but it wasn’t enough. That’s why big steps have been taken within our organization to put an end to these kinds of delays. The cancellation of two specs and streamlining production is a perfect example and there are many more steps being taken behind the scenes. I can feel a big change within our organization with a renewed focus on delivering exactly what we promise on time.
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Bike shop dude here. We have been told repeatedly that XTR is a 2020 groupset and will not be available in March. Getting kinda sick of Shimano saying one thing in releases and an entirely different thing otherwise. The f*ck is going on Shimano?
And if I remember correctly, Nick Murdick did all of the original videos for Shimano's S Tec training. Calling him a hipster seems a little out of place, considering the work he's put in.
The North American division has had a lot of problems and it's no secret that the building in Irvine has become a revolving door for new employees . Going after the product rather than human error As you can see by the article.
Shimano has been having reliability issues with their brakes for almost 10 years, and the fanbois would just invoke the company's no questions asked replacement policy. Well, Shimano knows damn well their brakes are unreliable, so they would surely give you a new set to plaque you down before facing a class action lawsuit.
And the same applies to SRAM and the Level levers with inappropriate seals that swell or fail to push fluid to the callipers, but at least you are able to find spare parts for them.
The Shimano fluid doesn't mix with water. I never had any problems with Shimano brakes but had a lot of issues with brakes from other brands.
Quality-wise I take XT rear mech over any sram rear mech anytime. The only thing I can blame Shimano for is that they failed to poliferate direct mount hangers and this dumb thin link is it’s genuine achilles heel. My X9type 2 outlived 3 hangers.
So yes, coming from a shop GX is a very solid drivetrain with very minimal amounts of issues or ergonomic flaws. It's just bloody good.
Just take a look through this comment section for personal testimonies...it's like 100 to 1 in favor of XT, and this site is full of SRAM fanbois.
I happened to agreed at least with the derailleur, i had an xt set up 11 spd on my previous bike and it was bomb proof, but not butter smooth. My new bike has the GX group and the derailleur worked for about 3 month, had to upgrade to an XO1 to get the drive train back to butter smooth. There is a reason a some companies offer the GX group with the XO1derailleur on their kits; and when it comes to brakes my codes R have been amazing and reliable.
SRAM has its own share of issues (from master cylinders frozen from day 0 due to incorrect seal material selection, to stuck/misaligned calliper pistons, to whatever nightmare you could imagine and worse), but as I said before, they at least offer spare parts. If you get cracking Shimano pistons, your only way out is buying a set of replacement ones from China, machined out of aluminum. And if your master cylinder ovalizes, all you can do is buy a new complete lever.
What drives me nuts it's all those companies implying the number one safety component on our bikes is unreliable by design, and telling us to suck it up.
It's been said a MTB brake costs a fraction of a motorcycle one and we get the quality we pay for, but as I said before, we deserve better. If I was a US/Canadian/European citizen, I'd be more than happy to be part of a class action lawsuit to force the manufacturers to improve their products and quality controls.
Then one day your lever goes down to the grip without any previous warning and you find yourself pumping it like crazy to get it working again. And you bleed and bleed the brake once and again, hoping to get all the bubbles out, but it's useless. The lever is FUBAR.
@thenotoriousmic The Shimano ceramic pistons will, over time, allow dirt and water into the system. The pistons need to be cleaned thoroughly when you do a bled and pump them out some to clear all the dirt.
theyre probably losing a lot of sales to sram right now
They heta up too much, are the heaviest and freestroke management is poor and inconsistent.
I'm on Sram now even if the bite is a bit less powerful but without all the downsides of Saints.
Some Direttissima are coming, I can't wait to compare.
If you want something cheap that does the job shimano is an option because in the uk it’s usualy a lot cheaper then sram but if you wanted high end components you’ve got to go with sram. They just do everything better. They only thing shimano I’ve taken any interest in is the new XTR stuff that shimano have just discovered they don’t know how to make.
If condition gets worse the little wheel who guide your cable is also useless and get clogged.
I am happy when I finally have a better frame where I can use 11speed again. GX lvl was okay back then but the eagle stuff is just to fragile.
The only thing I know for sure is that Avid brakes (or whatever the hell they call them in the next incarnation) sucked a lot, mainly cause I had the misfortune of use them and suffered their poor performance and tricky service. Though on the upside I mastered the art of bleeding, thanks Sram for that!!!!
I don’t get it. They are two generations behind on drivetrains. Their brakes have had major problems. Their two new technological innovations are failures and will never see the light of day. Why are they being protected. Bring out the knives! Again, if this was any other industry they would have been ripped long ago.
Shimano has a 50 year history of quality, SRAM has NEVER had a history of quality. Those of us who have been in the game for 20+ years know this. That's why when something like this happens with Shimano it's a big deal, because it's very out of character for them. With SRAM, it's par for the course.
Once again Shimano is not "behind" SRAM just because SRAM has something Shimano doesn't. The companies have two very different philosophies. Shimano is not "chasing" SRAM.
I want shimano to be good again and that’s not going to happen if you keep making excuses for them. Time to drop the fan boy shit and get shimano to get their act together.
Ride current XT and ride current GX Eagle. Even if you think Eagle is worthless the GX just feels better.
And if SRAM stopped innovating in 2010, what has Shimano done?
NX = Deore
GX = SLX
X1 = XT
XO1/XX1 = XTR
SRAM may be positioning GX Eagle against XT M8100, since there doesn't appear to be plans for X1 eagle.
But XT M8100 doesn't exist yet so we'll have to see what happens. Shimano has already adjusted by positioning M9100 against XX1 and M9120 against XO1 so there are changes coming.
11speed Shimano cassette is a beautiful cassette for the price. Your out to lunch.
I actually have a Eagle here with that wannabe clutch deasembeld. There is nothing to adjust, it looks like it can be done but there is nothing you could do to increase the force.
One could argue that XX1 = XTR Yumeya, since XX1 is just carbon-clad XO1. But Yumeya is very rare in North America and regular XTR competes fine with XX1 anyway.
Side note - google this subject. Turns out i'm being very generous in my rankings. Most of the industry puts X1 below XT and GX below SLX. I at least give SRAM the benefit of the doubt by going with how they position their products.
Do us all a favor and sell your Shimano parts. Please. You've made it very clear you don't like them, so get them warrantied, and sell the replacements. Hell i'll even trade you for them...pretty sure i've got a set of Guides on the shelf that wouldn't sell, you can have them.
So much fun trolling shimano fan boys.
Another bike. 10sp Sram x9 drivetrain. 11-42 10sp Sunrace cassette. 142 hope hub. 430 stays. 50mm chainline. Almost full revolution needed to drop the chain
Briefly mounted 11sp SLx to it with same XT cassette. Chain dropping immediately.
I am not an engineer who tested 50+ prototypes of same cassette and knows exactly what is going on in production models. That is purely anecdotal experience correlating with quite a few people.
Now, having said that, it DOES appear to only happen on cassettes with 42t or more.That's clearly a chain loading angle issue - which again points to chainline.
@TheRaven not really I just mounted up 10-42 X01 and it works better than XTR. Unless it has different chain line than Shimanos.
But yeah, i've had the opposite happen...replacing the SRAM cassette with a Shimano cassette stopped the chain drop. I've seen it go both ways. Just depends on the frame.
Interesting. I visited my local bike shope this week, because they were opening under a new name.
And I was looking for a good deal on a new bike.
They had a few bikes with XT, SLX and Deore drivetrains. For show they were shifted to the biggest cog.
When backpedaling all of them droped their chain about 3-4 cogs almost immediately.
The Deore was acutally the least effected by that.
My Sunrace cassette didn't do that.
Anyway I bought a super nice hybrid bike with a Deore 3x10 for cheap.
I want nothing more than to buy highly precise, impeccably finished XTR from Japan. I want it to be like the original Lexus LS400 with perfect panel gaps and million mile reliablity. I use to be a Shimano fan boy. Right now they seem to be like one of those Japanese companies struggling with years of malasie and conservatism. They have forgotten how to take risks and successfully innovate. The competition has caught up and it’s no longer enough to simply have a reputation for reliability.
I am saying they’ve fallen behind I’m telling you exactly how they’ve fallen behind but typical fan boys won’t have it even though you secretly know I’m right. Anyway I’ve proven my point. I could keep swatting these flys all day but it’s Saturday night and I’m off out. Have a good one guys.
So that's it. I'm not here to proselytize for Shimano. You ride what you like.
Enjoy that Kool-Aid.
Fanboys everywhere,. Let go my friend, let go.
I know what innovation can Sram bring to the market. The Metric Chain! Yes! Shimano will be so back! Then 13 speed 10-52 Eagle with a new wider XD driver and Etap rear mech with servo controlled clutch deactivating itself when shifting,
www.pinkbike.com/photo/16831016
The answer is yes. Dude's got like 30+ posts in here bashing Shimano. Case closed.
As for the cassettes - that's a matter of opinion. In my experience, SRAMs XD cassettes are a frikin nightmare to work with. Try removing one from a DT/Hope/King freehub after a full season of use. And they don't hold up any better than Shimano/Sunrace despite being 2x/3x the price. They are definitely lighter, but it seems ridiculous for me to complain about an extra 80g at the axle when i'm spinning an extra 500g at the tire.
As for the brakes - SRAM is on their fifth redesign trying to get things right while Shimano is still using the same design they've been using since 2010, and we're still waiting to see if the brand new SRAMs are as good as Shimanos.
I lean on what I experience in reality, because i've found over the years that what I read on the internet almost always does not work out in reality. Where I ride, guys either have SRAM because that's what came on the bike, or Shimano that they upgraded to. I don't know of a single rider that would be brave enough to claim SRAM makes better stuff than Shimano. ESPECIALLY brakes. Only on the internet do I find SRAM guys.
Brake wise Codes were better than any of the Shimano stuff and may still be.
I do like the midrange shimano shifting better than SRAM (we have both in the garage as well).
You may have had better experience with Codes, but that hasn't held true for the general population. Just take a look at the comment section for the press release about the redesigned SRAM brakes to get a feel for how the current gen is working out. I know people complain about inconsistent bite-point on Shimano's brakes, but that's a lot better than complete failure. SRAM gets a little better with each redesign, but they're still chasing Shimano on the braking front, and based on the reviews of the m9100 brakes thus far, they're going to have new ground to make up.
Brake wise, the Code RSC have been great for people. Most (nearly all) complaints were mainly those guides with the piston issues which is totally valid (I don't think Guides should exist). But still, the Codes are a better brake than Shimano stuff aside from pure DH stuff. They have more power than XT stuff and certainly have the right amount of modulation. The guys I spoke to that rode new XTR brakes weren't blown away (the drive train is apparently great tho). Kind of a more powerful XT brake and still lack in modulation and are a fortune. Codes are freaking awesome and reportedly very reliable so far in bite point, piston movement etc.
Look I'm no fanboi by any means hence why I have all of these options on the garage (aside from new XTR). But the reality is reality. I just don't get why people make it such a black or white thing.
Shimano can add modulation to their brakes, but they have chosen more power instead. Just as completely on/off brakes can really suck, all the modulation in the world won't help you if you don't have POWER. If i'm just out for a leisurely fire-road ride, modulation is nice...hell i'll modulate all day and smile the whole time...but then I wouldn't notice the difference between BB7s and Saints on a ride like that. When i'm descending major chunk at mach chicken, F modulation, I WANT TO STOP. At the end of that run, I couldn't tell you how far I pulled the levers, how much modulation I felt, or anything really...I can just tell you that I stopped.
We are not going to agree on brakes. I think the comment sections on PB speak volumes. Shimano brakes just work, all the time. You may not know where the bite point is, but you know it's there somewhere. You don't know that with SRAM.
People will always debate over stuff like this. Ford vs Chevy, Shimano vs SRAM, Boeing vs Airbus, Football vs Football, Samsung vs Apple... and on and on and on.
www.instagram.com/the_astral_apache/p/Bkhdh89B_Fn/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=17d0v0svgpi60
From the sound of it, Code brakes have some problems too. The problem I have is believing what I read. I read at various times the Monarch Plus is a great reliable shock and it's almost coil like. I bought one and it turned out to be the biggest bag of shite ever. I read that M8000 brakes were sweet and unfortunately they were not exactly consistent. I read that Stan's Flow rims were strong and... I could go on.
So how about Hope Tech 3 E4 brakes?
I've been using Shimano brakes for twenty years...couldn't even count how many sets i've depended on regularly from Deore through XTR and Saint. I have experienced noticeably varying bite points only maybe 5 times, and only on Deore and SLX. I've never experienced anything but perfection on XT/XTR/Zee/Saint brakes. Granted i've had the usual need-to-bleed again type issues, and extraneous noise...but that's not a brand-specific thing (in fact it tends to happen a lot more on SRAM and other brands from my experience). My shimano experience, and the experience of my (real world) fellow riders has been - struggle like mad to set them up initially, then bleed once a year and enjoy your ride.
I would not hesitate to recommend Hopes. My experience is limited to one ride with them but the few riders i've spoken to that have used them say they are every bit as good as Shimano, and better looking too. The problem is that they're twice as expensive...so looks need to be very important to you otherwise just buy XTs.
My experience with SRAM is extensive. Without a doubt far more SRAM product has passed through my shop than Shimano. So it could be argued that i'm actually MORE experienced with SRAM than Shimano.
But you should definitely rest your case.
Not a fan of the current holes. Don’t like how the lever feels physically and they’re hard to pull compared to sram brakes with the bearing and shimano are even lighter still which I really like about my XT and they have the nicest feeling lever also. I don’t like how they feel like they’ve got no power unless your really pulling on them but the build quality is amazing and the customer service is amazing. I once sent back a second hand set of brakes with a note saying not original owner he’s my details contact me and I’ll pay you to fix them and got a new set two days later. I don’t know if they’re still that generous because that was a long time ago and the only Hope product I had an issue with. I’d pick Hope brakes over anything if it wasn’t for the fact I personally don’t get on with them for now.
I'm going to give it a rest.
I am told XT 8100 is going to be out in proto form this month, and available to buy before the end of the year.
I would go that route just for the sake of a clean bar if they have solved the bite point issue.
Though I thought I remembered seeing a mechanic posting on MTBR about a diaphragm mod that fixed the problem on the first version levers...i'll see if I can find it.
I guess I really need to try some Hope brakes for myself.
(idk, was just wondering the other day, wasn't sure if this was a place to ask)
I'd take an entire day of not dealing with chain drops over two years of slightly stiffer action.
I'm totally indifferent SRAM v Shimano but Shimano has clearly left a lot to be desired here and in recent years for what is a massive company that should be able to do better. They've been left behind in developing and delivering 1x drivetrains and are resting on historical perceptions of quality and performance.
You can still only get 11sp drivetrains from Shimano and their 11-46 cassette is a rushed bodge-job. Meanwhile SRAM has moved on and on and now dominates the market for drivetrains on new bikes at all price points.
For every person who wants to rave about one brand and dismiss the other with a handful of anecdotal experience (and delve into tangential topics to this article like brakes), there are just as many on the other side.
Shimano has clearly stuffed up here and it should be acknowledged. By the time Shimano manages to release 12spd XTR, let alone XT and SLX, SRAM will be well down the line of introducing the next chapter of mtb drivetrains.
And I'll also add that I wanted the entire XTR groupset on my next bike, which I expect will now have to be SRAM (I struggle to believe all will be resolved in the next couple of months).
Makes no sense to knock Shimano USA for manufacturing issues over which they have no control. The only victim from the delay is Shimano. Their "old" (current) XTR can't sell except at discount, and they are losing market to SRAM. I bought a new race bike recently and XX1 Eagle was the obvious choice thanks to XTR's unavailability.
- No Scylence hubs and 11sp that people are hyped about
- No working with independent manufacturers to produce compatible alternatives
- Leaving riders waiting on their new bike for MONTHS with failed promise after failed promise
- Restricting licensing of Microspline drivers to DT and I9 only, leaving riders with little choice
- Giving customers a black nondescript crank when they have paid for XTR
- Launching a product that can't be manufactured
Scylence hubs - who waits for 300-500$ hub with angular contact bearings?
I agree on the rest
I didn't notice the bearings in the Scylence images though, are angular contact bearings different than what DT and CK are using? I keep refering to these two as they are, apparently, two of the toughest hubs around.
What is your opinion on the CK hubs/bearings?
@southoftheborder: yes and when you go to a bike park and hub seizes a bit, you can throw away the hub/ wheelset (Shimano is really bad at providing spare hubs for their wheelsets - so the whole thing... goes to sht) Anyone can notice play/seizing on regular ride involving a climb. Good luck in gravity fed riding! Been there done that, won't do it again. All people buying XTR wheelsets free willingly and don't service them often (like 3 times a year) are lunatics.
SpaceX has built a reusable space rocket in the time it's taken XTR to get built...
That and the fact that none of us have ever heard of any plane crashes.......
I know good Shimano cranks are, I've already got the MT900s on order, to replace my current XOs.
My only point here has been the comparison between the aerospace industry and Shimano's. Whilst Shimano's resources are vast (although I feel I have to point out that not all of it is focussed on XTR) it is not correct to compare them with Boeing/Airbus/SpaceX etc.
I would assume most folks have not had the pure joy of riding a Onyx hub.
It has changed the feeling I get when I mountain bike, simply due to the silence as you're flowing through sweet singletrack. It also pays big dividends on technical switchback climbing, when you sometimes need to reclock your cranks to get over a rock--that instant engagement is the difference between success and a stupid dab.
Shimano is going to be in deep sh*t if they run into the same issues with new SLX and XT. If Shimano cannot deliver at least OEM spec in a timely fashion, it's going to force bike brands to spec alternate brands to ensure their own success.
Still irritating that Shimano just reinvented a new std just to not use XD (which SRAM doesn't charge to use iirc). I'm sure it's mildly better in someway but entirely a Pita for no good consumer reason. Especially with them failing at the Sylence hub stuff.
Bike sales are down very significantly over the last years and I have little doubt Shimano and SRAM (and most bike mfrs) are sweating bigger, existential problems. If you want to wring your hands over something, think about that.
After reading the interview more carefully, it does seem that the Scylence design will stay similar, however the hub will no longer be silent. In the original design, there was a spring that pulled apart the ring drive when coasting which was what made it silent. I'm really curious as to how/why that design has changed.
They haven’t done a thing in the last few years that’s worth mentioning, other than the Scylence hub which isn’t happening now. Product quality and reliability is down. Product availability is pathetic, go ask your local shop if you don’t believe me. From the business end of things they’re a nightmare to deal with. Even when it comes to products with which they’ve historically had an enormous lead Shimano is blowing it. XT disc brakes being a perfect example of all of those issues.
From a consumer and rider standpoint, I’m done with Shimano. I don’t need a thing they sell, there are legitimate alternatives to every single one of their products. And those alternatives are actually available to me. Good riddance to bad rubbish, the rubbishy in this case being Shimano.
Granted I'm not one to waste money on gold XX1 (I've got friends that do) or the Di2 XTR groups, I just want something I can install, adjust once and ride. For the everyman's groupsets, that's still firmly in Shimano's hands in my opinion.
That jump to 50t on Eagle feels like crap to me in a high torque situation. Only ridden that in GX level though.
I was also comparing the 11sp. 11sp SRAM GX is very similar to Shiman XT...except the Shimano 11-46 cassette is complete trash. That was my main highlight. You can't honestly say XT 11sp is awesome unless you are using a 3rd Party cassette with a 3rd party hub or just have a 42t or less range. Ergo, Shimano F'd that 11sp up as well. Thankfully SRAM stuff works with it really well. GX 10-42 cassette on Shimano drive train is great.
I just upgraded my dad's old 9 speed shit that was working perfectly to some of my leftover 11 speed stuff. His derailleur hanger was out of wack, his chain was stretched 50 miles long, but it still f*cking worked. Getting the 11 speed to function properly added 30 minutes to the procedure because I had to get out the D.A.G. to get it millimeter precise before the shit worked again.
f*ck XTR 12 speed, f*ck eagle 12 speed, helll, f*ck all things 11 speed. 9/10 speed with 10-46/48 is what I want.
Nice try Shimano. Try to force everyone in to using your cranks and can’t even deliver them. So called “masters of metal” can’t deliver.
Everyone says SRAM releasss early and tests on consumers while Shimano just works. Shimano can’t even release stuff! Their two big innovations are failures.
If this was any other industry than bikes, Shimano would be toast. Instead they just coast of the past for another few years. Too bad Box is a pipe dream and TRP isn’t ready.
That shouldn't be.
Not even the cheap Shimano cassettes do that.
I read somewhere that the new XTR chain only works in one direction.
Have you tried to put the chain the other way around?
Been sitting on a brand new drivetrain for months now,was told the cranks would be available before Christmas, then January and the lastest Ive heard from my shop was APRIL.With my new frame finally arriving next week, I cant wait any longer...Im now forced to sell the drivetrain ( most likely at a lost ????) because I cant buy a compatible crankset...this is completely dumb.
This issue was so poorly handled and Its screwing up your customers across the board big time.Based on that little marketing pr, Shimano clearly dont give a shit about their customers.As it occurred to you that people are
loosing money on this?How is that possible that no one at Shimano offered a solution at this point ?It would have been easy to adress the situation months ago .You could have subcontracted small manufacturers such as wolftooth or Absolute Black to produce compatible chainrings for other cranksets like RaceFace or Ethirteen, or better yet, work with other crankset manufacturers to remedy this shit show and help people getting into the new xtr drivetrain.
You guys dropped the ball and youre letting the customer foot the bill for your mistake.
NEVER AGAIN SHIMANO,the product may be good but I will never ever put my trust into your brand...
“ On others, it might vibrate while pedaling or wear out extremely quickly“
In my book I call that premature wear but perhaps I should have used a simpler vocabulary: it wears out f*cking quick...Is that better ?
NO, I did not buy a an incomplete drivetrain knowing it might end up where I am now.....We’re talking about Shimano here, not some small aftermarket custom maker...At first Shimano had said the cranks would be available before Christmas, so I figured I could wait a few weeks to get the cranks knowing I wouldn’t get the bike until February anyway.Then is was January, then February and last time I was told April.We are finding out just NOW that they are having difficulties making these , wellllll after they officialy released the product and several months after their original delivery dates. (these kinda of manifacturing issues are normally taken care of BEFORE releasing new product btw ) .What prevented them to inform their customers about the issues? Why didnt they simply tell they wouldn’t be able to meet their delivery dates and chosen to keep the truth from us?They essentially lied about the delivery dates hoping for what?That people wouldn’t notice they are several months behind without any explanation??
Im sorry but thats not something youd normally expect from an industry leader.You telling me you saw that one coming? Lol, please your ENTIRE country didnt even see that clown you call your president would win the election ... lol, yeah, you’re sooooo clever.
When was the last time you saw any other manufacturers come up with an article like the one above? This is not normal behaviour, its completely backwards and there’s cleary something wrong at Shimano
You mean like the time that the president of Honda apologized to the public for the Civic and they brought out a replacement ahead of schedule? Or last week when Subaru stopped production of 2 cars because of steering issues, months after production had began of that particular setup?
*Half of the the people who showed up to vote voted for Trump
Much of the country is still waiting to vote and tell this garbage to f*ck off.
Couldn't just re do the existing free hub body. Yet another example of biting off more than they can chew in a timely fashion. They cant even claim we may be slower to market than Sram but our stuff works. Only it doesnt this time and its not the first time.
This new XTR is a testament to how far detached Shimano is from reality. At a time when cyclists are really fed up with new standards every year Shimano brings us yet more with a new crank, chain ring and chain for the sake of making 50 year old technology shift .00001% smoother. does any one care? Did anyone ask for that? No.
We did ask for wide ratio 10 speed that Shimano reluctantly provided 3 years late and 6 to 8 teeth short of the requirement... at the Deore level. Great job.
While Shimano continues to make more propietary standards and increasing the skews they have to make and retailers have to stock all of their competitors are delivering on time AND reducing the number of skews OEM and retailers have to buy and manage. Lack of agility, the inability to keep up with the market and continuing to add new standards while others reduce and simplify may not kill shimano but it is going to hurt them. I'm looking forward to that.
Shimano are just trying to carry on pretending that no one else can invent stuff and get hub sales back. Especially given the noises they made about back-compatibility when XD launched, years ago, I can’t help feeling this will bite them.
Price is crazy high to the UK and it's to heavy for something that expensive.
I'm praying hope see sense a do a silent one
Na 240s are still to loud. I'm sensitive to noise. I can hear them a mile away. Does my nut in.
Does your wife run the 46 or 42? With the 42, you should just need to max out the B-tension, but I wouldn't know for sure because I ran the One-Up RADr cage when I ran the SR 42 cassette. With the 46t cassette, it's a whole different ballgame, requiring an extra hanger link (included) to extend the derailleur low enough to clear the 46. Shifts quite well though.
FYI, the 46T 11spd sunrace cassette shifts very well with the SLX 11spd long cage derailleur, and has a 40-46T jump at the end, which is quite palatable.
This cassette is actually lighter than an XT 11spd 11-42.
I think the positive feedback it was getting was from people (me) thinking that this meant a 10-45T 11 speed hub that sat on the new freehub, but worked with our current 11 speed shifters and derailleurs.
Eventually I found out that the 11 speed cassette was only going to work with the new XTR shifter and derailleur, just with the shifter set to the "11" setting.
All I want is a light 11 speed (spaced for M7000 SLX and M8000 XT) cassette that fits on the new microspline freehub so that I can get wider range without having to re-purchase half of my drivetrain components!
the microspline DT Swiss freehubs are already available, so i wanted to go in that direction, but since there are no compatible cassettes yet, yeah i may just go with an XD freehub and SRAM cassette instead.
I figured going with microspline would future-proof me a bit, but with how slowly shimano is moving, i guess XD will be around a long time before SRAM feels the need to one-up shimano
ended up going with yet another xo1 group set waiting for this to hit market.
#unimpressed.
Job done: A hub and crankset nobody wanted
Is it safe to use the 9120 cranks I have on a Enduro bike?
I got the Trickstuff Direttissima already here and once that is mounted, I‘ll send in the XTRs to have Paul Lange to have a look at it.
All the need is a good gravity bleed and they`ll work in all conditions flawlessly.
www.mtb-news.de/forum/t/druckpunktwandern-shimano-xt-m8000.771314
I just use Bionol only for brake's and that was the most significant improvement.
I also have a old Deore who is working with DOT haha.
Getting to the point where seeing Shimano bits out on the trails is kind like an extra special rarity piece on someones bike that everyone goes "holy I haven't seen one of those in a long time!" like stems with 6 bolts holding your 25.4 bar on.
Just you wait and the family life start cutting in more and more on the riding and even you will need that sweet sweet 50t bailout.
From a product manager perspective I bet more and more of them are having a tough time trying to spec 11spd , this is where it's going to kill Shimano. Once someone buys a bike spec'd with an XD driver they are just going to stick with it.
My X01 11sp shifter will allow a thumb full of downshift in one go, you can go from top to bottom of the cassette in three shifts if you really want to.
Like all SRAM it’s strictly thumb push, but I’ve never got the love for Shimano pull-trigger. Apart from anything else, the way I like to run my controls, getting a finger to the shifter to pull is problematic due to the brake lever anyway.
I assume it's going to come down to if the chain fits on the cassette cogs + derailleur jockey wheels properly.
Trying to avoid swapping out cassette/hub on existing wheel, but want the new alum cranks.
I have four - yes four MTB groupsets that are equal to the big S brands , two are 11 speed going to 12 speed this year and two are already 12 speed. All of them together are cheaper the XT/XTR/GX/X01 I will not buy from either of the big S brands ever again.
Personally I'm not one for XTR stuff. Simply because I don't care about the latest, lightest or blingest. I want reliability and durability (which includes the availability of spares and repair options) and I'm actually willing to pay more for that. But I understood the XTR rear hub would use steel clutch plates whereas the lower end models would most likely have them in aluminium to save on machining costs. I'd expect those to wear quicker so that would be a reason to go for the XTR rear hub. Now reading they claim that only the bearings in the XTR hubs are going to be from steel (so apparently not the clutch plates) they got a whole lot less interesting for me. Yeah indeed the cup and cone bearings never bothered me. Bummer though that they put the new 11 speed hub on hold. Of course I prefer the shortest cage rear mech possible but the wider flange spacing of 11 speed hub sounded interesting too. Hopefully they'll do this for the lower end models in the coming years.
I would have had time for a big bike ride instead of reading those comments.
XT brakes check: works
SRAM GX check: works
Rocky Mountain Altitude bike check: works
Go for a ride...
Industry friends working of developing compatible chainrings for their brands tell us they have been presented with a challenge - typical narrow/wide (SRAMish) chainrings aren't working well in terms of performance or component life. Unfortunately, or fortunately (since the bar will be raised), right now this group really needs the Shimano crank/chainring.
My thought? Shimano should have not screwed around with a new hub they can’t make work and just used XD which is licence free. And they really need to do something about their standard release timetable. They don’t own the market anymore and SRAM have been ripping them for new releases since whenever 2x10 was now- 10 years, maybe? In that time all Shimano seem to have done is get some electronics hardly anyone can afford working nicely with front-derailleur setups that are now incompatible with many new bikes, made a mess of 11sp by trying to keep it compatible with front mechs and given it crap cassettes and screwed up thrir reputation for reliable brakes with essentially the same failures across several generations, Elixir-style.
I’m honestly amazed they’re still getting a pass...
Simple nomenclature is exactly what popped into my mind. Just rolls off the tongue.
Choice is defineyly reduced, some items are seemingly only available from Overseas, and that is at the recommendation of my LBS.
WHY. NO. SHIMANO. SPRAG. YET?
Thank you
-hbs
"What's wrong with wanting perfection?
Nothing, if you're god and willing to wait billions of years for it to evolve, but all designs involve compromise, and at some point you have to get your product out there."
Although the delay is annoying ..
Meaning SRAM will never have a groupset with the quality and durability of XTR.
But then that's not really what SRAM is about either. These are two very different companies, and you can tell by the two very different types of customer that each attracts. SRAM is "first to market" and Shimano is "it'll be ready when it's ready". The result is that to SRAM fans, Shimano appears to be "behind" while to Shimano fans, it's SRAM that is playing catch up.
Cups and cones are easily serviceable, cheap, efficient, and extremely rewarding set up properly.