Spotted: Prototype Shimano DH Derailleur

Oct 17, 2020 at 16:38
by Mike Kazimer  
Shimano Saint prototype

At the DH World Cup in Maribor, Slovenia, Loris Vergier and Greg Minnaar are running unmarked derailleurs that look quite different from the current Shimano Saint M820.

Shimano's Saint components have remained largely unchanged for the last 7 years, a testament to how refined the parts where when they were first released. However, given that the XTR, XT, SLX, and Deore drivetrains have all recently received significant updates, it would only make sense that the venerable Saint group would be the next in line for some revisions.

Shimano Saint prototype

The most noticeable change is the shape of the parallelogram. The distinctive X-shape of the current version is gone, replaced by a rectangular piece with more material in the center. The entire derailleur looks more compact, which could be a sign that it's now designed specifically for downhill cassettes with 7 or fewer gears – the original was designed to work with up to a 10-speed cassette. The derailleur also uses a standard mount, as opposed to the direct mount compatible design used previously.

The adjustable clutch mechanism hasn't gone anywhere, and like Shimano's other derailleurs a lever is used to turn it off to help with wheel changes.

Loris was using an XT shifter to operate the new derailleur, but there's likely a new shifter floating around somewhere too - we'll see what we can dig up.


273 Comments

  • 154 5
 Now are people going to be happy because new Saint group, or angry because the old Saint group was so loved? Either way, this is Pinkbike so someone will find something the complain about.
  • 45 2
 It's not hydraulic! Come at me PB comments! Big Grin

I kid, I kid...
  • 21 2
 @Milko3D: Have a look for shimano Airlines.....
  • 9 1
 To be human is to complain
  • 36 6
 Long-term review tomorrow on PB! Smile
  • 4 1
 Yes.
  • 26 2
 Price; X
PBer: WAY too much! Enjoy it DR's and Yeti owners.
  • 7 0
 @bookem13: A mate has 2 sets of Airlines. One set is brand new in the box.
  • 3 0
 @Kiwijohn42: seems like a decent investment at today's prices
  • 2 0
 @Kiwijohn42: I have a set, used unfortunately. still one of my fave bits of bike history.
  • 9 0
 No DI2 Saint option? Insta dislike.
  • 2 0
 @thegoodflow: Thanks for the link...hmmm....never saw those. Pretty ungainly looking on the bikes back in the day.
  • 15 0
 No room for a water botte on it...
  • 26 0
 Complaining about people potentially complaining.
  • 4 3
 @Brauck: To be a Pinker is to be Human
  • 6 0
 @Brauck: "Reclamo, Ergo Sum"
  • 1 0
 @racecase: LOL. So true.
  • 2 0
 @bookem13: Ahaha, that could look so Steempunk with a couple of modifications!
  • 1 0
 @bookem13: I don't care what anybody says, that was a cool idea!
  • 4 0
 @racecase: Actually, I've found shimano stuff compared to sram stuff to be priced quite competativly, if not on average, cheaper.
  • 2 0
 Nice and small, looks perfect.
  • 2 2
 @ReeferSouthrland: Agreed. This is a much needed face lift
  • 1 0
 @vikb: ikr
  • 63 1
 Am I the only one who could inspect every possible inch of every bike there and not notice it’s got a prototype anything on it?
  • 3 0
 Hahaha nop!!!!
  • 2 0
 Lol ???? I’m with you
  • 26 1
 I bet Shimano marketing just asked Pinkbike if they wanted to make some 'spy shots' .
  • 28 10
 Ah come on what are these shit pictures, head to vital for a clear look boys
  • 24 5
 It's amazing jow Pinkbike is always 2 days behind with spy shots (the "real" ones) and everything proto related. But I think it's just the business model they went for, which is entertainment and advertising and not so much journalism anymore. There is nothing wrong really.
  • 8 5
 @ORTOGONAL555: yes they are definitely on the clickbait model of journalism
  • 17 3
 Vital for the articles, Pinkbike for the comment section. Informed and entertained.
  • 25 1
 @ORTOGONAL555, there’s nothing business related about this - we got scooped, plain and simple. Vital’s photogs simply snagged shots before ours did. Not ideal - I like being first, but it happens sometimes.
  • 14 1
 2 days behind!? What's the big deal anyway? By the time it's ready for mere mortals to buy both sites would have test articles published.
We don't want riders to be at each others throats, why do we wish that to photographers and journalists?
Chill!

I'm not high, I promise!
  • 3 3
 @mikekazimer: to me it just looks like PB has moved a bit over from this kind of articles (spy shots, prototype stuff...). Might just be a perception thing, but as I said, there would't be nothing wrong really, I guess you guys are pretty busy already. Thanks for the reply btw.
  • 4 0
 @ORTOGONAL555, nope, we’re still trying to get sneak peeks of anything we can, it’s just that there have been waaay fewer races to do so this year.

www.pinkbike.com/news/tags/spotted
  • 14 2
 Get rid of the derailleur
  • 5 0
 I believe UCI rules actually say you can't (at least for world cups). Not sure what the point of that rule is though. I'd love to see more single speed dh bikes!
  • 4 0
 @gibspaulding: maybe what he meant isn´t that you should be running SS, but something more high tech that doesn´t dangle from the chanstay.
  • 8 2
 Shimano really need to update the whole saint groupset and make parts for the brakes. I had brand new saint brakes and the rear lever started leaking from the end of the reservoir there unfixable so I warranty it and it took 2 years till I had the new one under warranty.
  • 1 0
 Fixable!
  • 11 1
 Lol even when they don't leak they are always damp around the plunger on the master. Shimano needs to start from scratch with their master cylinders. Pads could use an update as well.
  • 4 3
 @friendlyfoe: there is already an aftermarket solutions, like these: www.redpandacomponents.com
  • 2 0
 @Jahtaka: do they have an English language site? Many thanks
  • 1 0
 @Jahtaka: thanks for the link. what is it for?
  • 2 9
flag Mondbiker (Oct 18, 2020 at 8:01) (Below Threshold)
 @donpinpon29: ever heard of google translate? Might give you all the answers you are after.
  • 1 0
 @donpinpon29: this is protection from the external environment and abrasive wear of the master cylinder and lever axle. The brakes will stop leaking after a couple of dirty rides. You can install this thing yourself in 10-15 minutes.
  • 4 1
 @Jahtaka: wow , well engineered solution to a problem that I didn’t even know existed. Kudos to red panda for making this for a really niche market.
  • 2 0
 @dicky1080: no, they don't, only local language.
  • 1 0
 @Mondbiker: terima kasih kacan goreng
  • 9 0
 I'd love to see some new saint brakes.
  • 7 0
 The crank seems prototype too. Why don't you show us?
  • 1 3
 XTR I think
  • 5 1
 @nug12182: But XTR does not have 83BB.
  • 3 0
 Check 0.57.38, Redbull.tv from Maribor.
There’s Greg Minnaar cranks.
  • 4 0
 11s XT cranks
  • 2 0
 I've been patiently waiting for some new saint cranks myself.
  • 1 0
 @Mondbiker: Looks like M8000 but with 83BB
  • 3 0
 Vital shows the whole crank.
  • 7 0
 Think Saint, think reliable. Please keep it that way Shimano.
  • 6 1
 So interesting that mech design is circuiting back to perpendicular parallelograms.
  • 1 0
 why
  • 22 1
 Who doesn't love a little parallelogrammatic perpendicularity? You're such a square
  • 1 1
 *parallelogrammic

But seriously, shouldn't it be 8- or 6-speed microspline to compete with the other S, and have a motor in the clutch that runs off a watch battery? Funny Vergier already won something with it
  • 12 0
 parallelogrammar nazi
  • 1 0
 I believe that's called double symmetric pantograph, yes?
  • 5 1
 Interesting that the low-profile Shadow stuff pretty much isn't a thing in high-end mtb mechs from Shimano anymore.
  • 5 0
 It’s still got the same low profile as the shadow stuff, just got rid of the e flimsy b link. I checked when I fitted my xt kit.
  • 1 0
 @fussylou: No it doesn't. The new stuff sticks out pretty much just as far as a SRAM X-horizon. Certainly doesn't look like this: bike.shimano.com/en-US/technologies/component/details/shimano-shadow-rd.html Maybe this one is slightly slimmer just because it doesn't have to move as far so the parallelogram can be smaller, but they're definitely not 12mm narrower like a 9/1011 speed Shadow mech.
  • 7 1
 SS is the way
  • 1 0
 preach
  • 4 3
 I had a problem with Shimano stuff once. Don't know for sure if it might have been an easy fix. Could have been one of those things that happens with mass produced products. Could have been user error. Either way, will never ride Shimano again.
  • 1 0
 It would seem that I have reached sarcastic asshole level infinite.
  • 1 0
 Satiric levels exceeded!
  • 1 0
 they should be prototyping a lightweight 3 speed gearbox and bring real advantages to the bike and not keep redesigning the wheel with rear mechs again and again for decades. this is literally the last part of a mountain bike that's clinging onto the past and holding back real gains
  • 2 1
 Dear Shimano - while innovation in niche DH specs are appreciated, can you please deliver a $500 or less Di2, sequential, 12 speed shifter/derailleur combo? Thanks!
  • 1 0
 It’s Shimano. Their drivetrain department would never do that, they couldn’t afford the backlash if there was even a slight problem with it.
  • 1 0
 @GilesSTurner: I think the point here is simply that they've wholly abandoned electronic shifting, at exactly the year(s) when their major competitor is all in and receiving universal praise. Why they hell haven't they created a sequential electric derailleur. AXS has been out for a long time now.
  • 1 0
 @KJP1230: They did, however not for production. It was on one of semenuks bike on display during Whistler Crankworx last year. Who's to say when it will be released, but I'd expect it to come sooner than later.
  • 1 0
 While I would love to see this, I don't think that will happen for that price point. At least not for another decade most likely.
  • 2 0
 @jomacba: Disagree. AXS controller/derailleur has already gone from $1000 to $750 (not MSRP, but discounting by retailers), and it has only been out for a little over a year. There is nothing about a servo motor and bluetooth chip that is very expensive - once they recoup their R&D costs by selling $1000 setups for a year or two, they are bound to release a GX version of electronic shifting for the masses. Same thing happened with "12 Speed Eagle". For the first 1+years, it was only available as XX1, then it suddenly came out for X01, GX, then NX, SX. It's just standard trickle down tech.

I would venture to guess that you'll be able to get electronic shifting (from SRAM, anyway) for $300-400 within the next 2 seasons. They'll keep cable drivetrains an option, but in general the cable versions will become the lower-end, cheaper spec.
  • 3 1
 7 gear cassette on second pic.
  • 1 0
 Syndicate and a few other riders have been running 7 speec cassettes on 10 speed shimano derailleurs for a while now. They just screw the limit screw right in a shove spacers where the other 3 gears would be. Check the video of Loris installing his drivetrain from a few months ago and they show you how it's done
  • 1 0
 What’s going on with the dropout? Looks like there’s an alloy sleeve over it or something.
  • 5 0
 Those are custom dropouts, made for the Syndicate riders to lengthen the chainstays. They are also making the reach longer with custom headsets from Chris King.
  • 2 0
 @southoftheborder: thats only minnaar.
  • 1 0
 @jomacba: I stand corrected then.
  • 2 0
 I hope they release an updated Zee group at the same time.
  • 1 0
 They usually wait at least a year before trickling it down.
  • 1 0
 @DoubleCrownAddict: They didn't with this gen XT and SLX.
  • 5 8
 Zee is gone from the 2021 OEM catalogue apparently. It would be nice to see new Zee. As for this derailleur, it looks weaker to me. If it ain't broke, don't fix it Shimano. Please please please don't make Saint 12 speed. I am completely underwhelmed by the 12 speed SLX and XT derailleurs I have used so far. Both a lot more sensitive than 11 speed XT. Also the clutch does not seem to be reliable with the offset topjockey wheel. Don't do it Shimano. What we really need is thick chain seven 7,8 or 9 speed. Wider hub flange on the drive side, with a wider range option for ebikes.
  • 1 0
 Me too
  • 2 0
 @jaame: Sounds like I should buy a spare Zee rear mech this fall winter then. It is still going strong but I don't want to be forced onto something long caged should my current mech break.
  • 1 0
 @vinay: I bought a brand new one this year for my son's bike - there are some about. Zee brakes on the other hand, they are hard to find at a reasonable price in good nick.
  • 2 0
 @jaame: Yeah, but do you think Zee brakes have a quality that is hard to find in other products? I think there are loads of good brakes available these days at different price points. But a proper short cage rear mech with this kind of range is rare. I'm running the Zee rear mech with a 11-36 cassette. Modern rear mechs from other brands/groupsets have such a long cage, I don't want that with my 26" rear wheel.
  • 1 0
 @vinay: I agree, that's why I wanted the Zee gear set for my son's 24" wheel bike. I have had a couple of Zee mechs myself over the years. I would like to get the brakes for him just so the whole set matches, and also the Zee brakes I had were solid performers. They were pre-bite point issue brakes. The later design of master cylinder has had issues reported on at least some of the brakes.

I could go for another brand I suppose, but I already have the bleed kit, oil and tool necesary to bleed shimano brakes.

I wonder what new Zee will be like. I wonder what it will be called.

For me the biggest question is over whether they decide to go down the 12 speed actuation route, or reduce the number of gears to increase reliability for DH and ebikes. That would be the ticket in my opinion. Hopefully they don't got the SRAM way of having a 12 speed setup with just seven cogs and the offset flange with the big waste of space spacer.
  • 2 0
 @jaame: Shimano introduced the Saint group back in 2004. The brake was basically the 2004 Deore XT caliper with a different colour and a brake rotor with oversized centerlock standard (so that you had to get their hubs, so you had to get their rear mech too). But the caliper really was an XT caliper. In 2005 they introduced Hone which was their "all mountain" groupset which was basically a burlier version of the 2005 Deore LX groupset (also with an axle mounted rear mech). They later merged Hone and Deore LX into SLX (no longer Deore) which was supposedly halfway in burliness as obviously there was already a trend towards harder or more aggressive riding so there was no point having an mtb groupset that was not up to that. Now they've recently released a huge new Deore groupset with 10sp, 11sp and 12sp options and both 2pot as well as 4pot brake calipers. So it seems you can already build an "enduro" bike with a Deore groupset. It is like they've kind of merged Deore and Zee just like they once merged LX and Hone. Even if you don't want to go super wide range microspline stuff: the 10sp and 11sp cassettes still fit a regular HG body so the budget option is right there. With them covering all that, I'm afraid they now see little purpose for something budget that does exactly what Deore already does, just with less gearing range. Reviewers don't seem to complain about long cage rear mechs so other than us two, who would they make a Zee rear mech for?

When I got my Zee mech, I also got the Wolftooth Goat Link which replaces the upper part of the mech. I thought it would be a good idea as it supposedly would get me more chain wrap over the smallest sprockets hence wear them less. But it did require more range from the cage to use the full 11-36 cassette. Which it didn't have and there was insufficient tension to keep the chain from skipping over the smallest sprocket, so I converted it back. But I might try it with an other 10sp Shimano rear mech some day. What it does is that it tilts the rear mech counterclockwise (when looked at from the right of the bike) so when in the heaviest gear the guide pulley is a bit higher, hence the whole cage along with the tension pulley gets lifted up a little too. Haven't tried that yet as I don't have another 10sp rear mech to try this with (other than Zee) but if you do then it may be worth a consideration. There is a Goat Link for 11sp too.
  • 1 0
 @jaame: I don’t know why your comment was downvoted so much but I agree, dh bikes don’t need many gears. I’ve had fairly good luck this season with my Sram GX 7 speed drivetrain. I used to run a chopped 6 speed cassette with an old tiagra derailleur and it worked fine. Perhaps a 6 or 7 speed Saint would be more appropriate.
  • 1 0
 I had some Hone cranks for years!

I think there is obvious crossover between ebikes and DH bikes in terms of the reliability being more important than gear steps.

It seems like an obvious gap in the market to me. I would go for maybe a 9 speed cassette with 10-50 for ebikes and 10-25/30 ish for DH. Two derailleurs (a short and a long) and use the exact same shifter, brakes and crank arms.

Thanks for the tips about Deore. I really hadn't considered that. My son's bike has an 11-36 XT cassette but up front it's a 32t ring. I would love to give him a lower gear - I think a 26t up front would be perfect but there don't seem to be any 150mm DM cranks. With the 104BCD the lowest I can go is 30t and it's not really worth the effort to just drop two teeth. A ten speed Deore setup might be better but I am going to guess the cassette is super heavy. Will look into it though.
  • 1 0
 @jaame: Shimano already had the Deore HG500 cassette. I forgot what the exact range is, but it is big. It was mounted on the lowest spec Kona and Vitus fullies to get you a range comparable to an 11sp drivetrain but without the finickiness. As for weight, is a big Deore 10sp cassette heavier than an 11sp higher end cassette? It is still one ring of steel less after all Smile . I have to admit I never really looked into the exact weights of different cassettes. It obviously matters lots for the unsprung weight of a full suspension bike but I ride a hardtail. Then you have people caring about rotating mass which does make sense but then again if any I'd mostly care about the mass that always spins when rolling (rim, tire insert etc) and less about the mass that only spins when you pedal (pedals, cranks, cassette etc). That said, I don't save on tire, tire insert and rim weight either. But yeah, for a kid every little bit of weight matters. Good luck on the build!
  • 1 0
 @jaame: 12 speed so overrated but its what they market wants, people think they need 12 speed once SRAM pushed it onto all bikes. 11 speed XT/SLX so reliable. Still waiting to see how 12s SLX goes long term.
  • 1 0
 @vinay: Zee brakes really not different to 6120 or 7120s now. Back in 2013 they made sense but now they have everything covered in Deore and SLX for budget options and XT and XTR for higher end stuff. DH rear mech really only thing missing from latest lineup.
  • 1 0
 @BenSandle: current XT/XTR are as powerful as Saint 820, problem is other manufacturers already make stronger brakes... thta’s why the need for new Saint brakes! Wink
  • 1 0
 @hitarpotar: I would be happy with the same power, just a bit better modulation and most importantly I would like the lever to bite at exactly the same spot every time even when manualling over roots or anchoring on over braking bumps. That is what shimano needs to sort out.
  • 1 0
 @BenSandle: just keep the clutch greased, seems to need more maintenance than the older 11 speed for some reason even though it's the same mechanism
  • 1 0
 @grizor: I have found that it's not the clutch so much as the bushing that connects the arm to the back of the parallelogram. Removing the clutch and unscrewing the arm, then working oil into that bushing using a drill with a 4mm bit. That's helped me rescue one that was sticky A.F.
  • 1 0
 i hope it is part of a new group some updated saint breaks wold be mean as!!!
  • 1 0
 No pictures of the cranks Lois was running? New style chainringtabs look alotlile xt/xtr cranks, come on Pinkbike
  • 2 0
 Aha now I know why Loris won twice
  • 1 0
 A testament to how refined the parts where when they were first released - or a testament to how few Saint parts they sell?
  • 1 0
 About time, Saint is a "fresh" 7 years or so old groupset
  • 2 0
 Especially who need 10 speed on a dh bike about time it goes to 7 or less.
  • 4 0
 Old but works so well! My original Saint derailleur lasted 8 years and was on 2 different frames. Replaced it last season finally.
  • 10 1
 Still look so good and so reliable compare to Sram !
  • 1 0
 @ThunderChunk: My M800 cranks are still in use at 13 years old Eek
  • 1 0
 @secondtimeuser: I have m800 too. 9 years old. Thinking they will go on my next build as well.
  • 4 0
 @ybsurf: just set you limit screw at the 7th cog and run a stack of cog spacers in place of the largest 3 cogs. Been doing that for the past 5 years
  • 4 1
 @Ride406orDie: got so much trouble and many snapped cable with my short cage zee. I went single speed, best thing I ever done, lighter, quieter and cleaner cockpit.
  • 1 0
 @ybsurf: i had snapped cable issue too on a GX, the best thing is to put some grease/lub on both entries. After that, the shifting is way better. I do the same thing with my hood cable because i have a Taudi, so i have to pop the hood every week lol. You can try with WD40 even if it not the best. Chain lub is ok but it can catch dirt. Also don't overtight your cable screw.
  • 1 0
 @Ride406orDie: If you have 135mm dropouts, you could run a single speed hub and go without extra spacers. I use a hope trials hub and it fits a gx downhill cassette and even has a steel freehub rather than the ordinary aluminum one.
  • 1 1
 Wireless or Bluetooth. Catch up to the dirt bikes That’s where the game is going!
  • 2 1
 It needs to be oilslicked
  • 2 1
 Niiice well spotted
  • 1 1
 @badbadleroybrown: well that might be an opinion exclusive to you.
  • 1 1
 I’m sorry but that is an awful product the cage is 3mm too short
  • 1 0
 There will be aftermarket cage.
  • 1 1
 Every interaction is a potential marketing opportunity.
  • 1 3
 @vikb: my old Saint drivetrain used to break a der cable every day at he park.a mexhanic told me to get. A Sram DH drivetrain and now it happens maybe once a year
  • 1 0
 mechanic should have told you to file the sharp edge at the cable clamp and not to overtighten the clutch.
  • 1 1
 @Mondbiker: I didn't touch the clutch but If there was a sharp end on their derailleur, then what confidence does that innstill in me in Shimano's stufff?
  • 1 1
 @Rubberelli: exactly, and they’re just going to refuse to warranty it when it falls apart after 6 months like most shimano stuff because you’ve had take a file to it to get it to work.
  • 1 2
 Its like a normal derailleur but only smaller
  • 3 2
 Can just use a road mech as cheaper option?
  • 3 1
 @aljoburr: Not without using a Shimano flat bar road shifter. Different actuation ratios for road vs MTB with Shimano.
  • 1 0
 @davechopoptions: Plus other than Ultegra RX (and GRX) road RDs don't have a clutch, and a lot of road RDs have longer cages anyways because nowadays more and more people use wider range cassettes on road bikes too.
  • 1 3
 Too many geeks. I'm outta here. Peace out.
  • 2 0
 @Hotwheels09: Thats Mr.Geek!
  • 1 1
 @davechopoptions: Is a problem but older shifters work as solution,
BY putting covers over drive keep it clean & maintenance free
Plus do not need a clutch?
  • 2 0
 @aljoburr: Don't need a clutch on a downhill bike? Whaaaat? Smile Clutches are one of the best things that happened to rear derailleurs IMO.

Unless you find some old stock, nowadays 8-9spd road components are entry level, lower end stuff, and the rear derailleurs are not designed for "racing cassettes" (although even some of the pros are starting to move to wider range cassettes). Even a short cage 8spd Claris or 9spd Claris is designed to work with an 11-32 cassette and a double, so they don't have a very short cage.
A 10spd ZEE rear derailleur costs like £50-55, it has a clutch and a tiny cage. I don't see the point in getting an old shifter and a road rear derailleur that doesn't have a very short cage, doesn't have a clutch, and it has a double pivot design with springs made out of cheese.
  • 1 1
 @HollyBoni: Funny how much you missed the point !!!!!!!!
  • 1 0
 @aljoburr: Sorry, TBH I didn't understand most of your comment. Feel free to explain if you can be bothered.
  • 1 1
 @HollyBoni: Ok have sent you a message,
But clutches are not needed & also affect the function of suspension!
  • 1 0
 Its like a normal but only smaller"

That's what she said.

*sigh*
  • 1 0
 @HollyBoni: back when I used to ride dh bikes with Saint mechs I used to take the clutches off. They make shifter harder to push and they effect the performance of the rear suspension and if you’re running a chain guide you don’t need it anyway.
  • 1 0
 @thenotoriousmic: paired mine up with a Saint shifter - pretty easy shifteng with very light thumb pressing. Smile
  • 1 0
 @thenotoriousmic: You can fine tune the clutch tension, you can achieve a "sweet spot" where the clutch will still do something but won't affect the lever feel much. But even if the clutch is on the tighter side, personally I don't feel that the lever is too hard to push, especially with good cables and housing. But that's just me.
Even if you're running a chain guide, a clutch is a nice addition IMO.
Yeah, sadly it affects the rear suspension.
  • 1 0
 @aljoburr: The thing is, yes the clutch does impact the suspention , however chain growth is consistant, so the forces applied are generally consistant, therefore this can somewhat be accounted for with a suspention tune. Now there are bigger forces at play here, and chain guides themselves play a roll. Most chainguides that retain the chain on the top and bottom of the chainring tension the chain upwards on the lower part of the chainring. This is to reduce chain growth, however the result is essentially creating more growth on the top, which in turn engages the freehub sooner, and more rapidly. This creates drivetrain enduced feedback which has a much much larger impact than a clutch on a derailleur. This is also why we're seeing alot of riders remove the lower guide pully on their chain guides. In this case, unless your running an MRP SXG guide, it makes the clutch 100% necisarry, and ultimately a more desirable force applied to the suspention than the alternative. The only option available to limit this more is running a suspention design that utilizes an idler running across the main pivot or going chainless. Which lets face it, probably won't win many races.
  • 1 0
 @aljoburr: also just realized I spelled suspension incorrectly a bunch of times... oops.
  • 1 3
 The Saints are back in Pinkerville.
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