Starling Cycles' Prototype is a Steel High-Pivot 29er With 5 Speeds

 preach it, sister!

 Btw, Curtis is surely the daddy of UK hardcore steel hardtail makers??

 @WAKIdesigns: You don't like riding hardtails?
Yeah, i can agree i'm pretentious and riding a hardtail but i find it more fun on certain trails.

 @WAKIdesigns: I don’t think you can communicate with drunks when they are at the handbags phase of their evening. They are probably best mates before the sixth pint.

 @WAKIdesigns: That's good to hear. i think i misread your post.

 @aps62: pivot is definitely not 4/20 high so rarher disappointed

 @WAKIdesigns: I done told your ass to get the Fuk out da hood Waki!

 @WAKIdesigns: I'll break this down for you. You think you know more than you do. Strong opinions don't make you correct.

Nobody gets to tell another person "what the hell riding a bike is about."

To each their own.

 @WAKIdesigns: 'Every hardtail with a 140mm fork or bigger is...''

My experience begs to differ. Last year I only rode a steel LTHT through choice and I loved every moment of it.

It was fun by my definition, and isn't that the point?

 @WAKIdesigns: dude photos of this event would've been so sweet lol.

 @orientdave: I have 130mm 63,5* HA, the problem with most LTHT imo is the headangle is rediculously steep down in the travel. Sketchy to ride in my experience.
To have anything 150-160mm travel you would need a 62* HA or something rediculous.

 @pancakeflatted: You're damn right! Same goes for someone's choice of gearing.

 Probably one of the more solid Waki comment threads I’ve seen in a while...

 @WAKIdesigns: that was the most entertaining, no let me correct that. .... We have a saying in most parts... Typically you are full of it..... This time round you are it. Where do get all of it from though?

 @skorp: Have you tried a BTR Belter? I love every moment I get to ride one (my local LBS owner here in Japan has one and when we go park riding I am always begging him to let me ride it) ...it has a 61 degree HA and is the most fun I have ever had riding DH.

I even sold my Norco Aurum LE purely because I prefer riding LTHT DH; it is what I like, and the Aurum was sitting, gathering dust.

Still, what one person likes isn't for everyone, and nor should it be.

 @WAKIdesigns: If I had a chance, I'd take you for a proper hardtail ride, on proper trails. It would likely change your mind. Too bad it wont happen.

 @aps62: no the swing arm is new

 @aps62: at that height it's enough for the chain growth to affect suspension movement so it warrants a jackshaft or an idler pulley, going much higher will give massive chainstay growth and weird cornering while suspension cycles, point is as long as you counteract the chain forces at a certain point through the travel you don't need to go any higher you gain not much performance wise. Don't think he got in all that trouble to make a frame and got bored at the end and said what the heck, just throw this swing arm on and be done with it.

 @WAKIdesigns:

"And Brits are particularly good at it"

Whilst you appear particularly good at making yourself look like a complete bit!

 *tit!
#fail

 @WAKIdesigns: I respectfully disagree, but there is no point arguing with you. I will say that I think types of trails and conditions really play into it. Also for what its worth... my quiver has included some legit squish bikes. I'm not a "hardtail" only dude. But yeah, long, slack and 160mm has a place in my world. Loam, steeps, rain, snow, giant roots, mud, 5,000' days, etc... Probably types of rides you only dream about.

 @JDFF: hardtails with 160mm travel is the tits. Basically the hot rods of the bike world anyone who doesn’t understand or like hardtails can be put straight into the shit rider category because they obviously suck.

 @WAKIdesigns: lol

 Which video? You’d be off walking mate regardless of what bike you was on.

 @thenotoriousmic: I'm not in disagreement. I'm all for 160mm modern Ht's.

 @JDFF: I know mate. I was agreeing with you.

 @thenotoriousmic: hot rod comparison was spot on.

 @WAKIdesigns: you never fail to amaze me how much of a total bell end you are. I ride a single speed 26" slackline with a 160mm RC2DH and constantly use and appreciate having that much travel. You called me poor when my video that got 130,000 views when shared by pinkbike 'would you ride this on a hardtail' and your calling me and everyone else that rides long travel HT's poor again. Thing is, i have a Capra pro that set up with Coil DHX2 and recently all ive CHOSEN to ride is the 26" hardtail. I ride it because its fun and totally hassle free, i dont ride it because im poor. It was the first mountain bike I bought when i started riding 6 years ago it will be my prefered bike to ride for as long as I keep her running.

 @WAKIdesigns: by the sounds of it you are the one who doesn’t have a clue what the hell riding a bike is...!? Not sure you can have more fun than riding a nice, long and slack HT with 150-160 travel! Try and then come back and apologise...for your pretentiousness maybe!?

 @WAKIdesigns: you guys should have it out! Loser needs to delete their PB account.

 @StraightLineJoe: bezza?

 @WAKIdesigns: Love being a lowly mechanic on a trick sb130!

 @WAKIdesigns: it's not just the UK. Come to B.C. and the PNW. #hardtailbychoice

 @pancakeflatted: binge. Kinda how all of waki’s posts read.

 @JDFF: rarely see them on the shore, squamish, or in pemby.. But I guess they're around here and there.

 @bohns1: certainly not the mainstream, but there is some lurking around Sea to Sky and V.I. I encounter brethren often in those zones.

 @JDFF: for sure there are the anomalies, no question.

 Personally I prefer the geometry over the amount of actual travel it has. Ever since I first saw a OnOne 456 Summer Season (a slacker version of their regular 456) I've been thinking "what if you could get the slacker geometry without needing the longer travel fork?". I didn't want the extreme changes in the geometry as the fork moves through the travel, mostly because I didn't like my full susser doing that (when the rear extends as the fork dives when the weight shift and deceleration aren't perfectly in sync). For those who don't know the model, the 456 is a hardtail frame designed to work with forks between 4 and 6" travel. Basically what the Cotic BFe is now. Eventually BTR did just that with their Ranger bike. And I'm glad they designed instead of me because I wouldn't have thought of stretching the headtube to compensate for the shorter fork . But that's just me not wanting to get deeper in the travel of such a long fork. I looked at the geometry chart of that Chromag Doctahawk frame and with a sagged 180mm fork it is pretty much on par with the BTR Ranger with a sagged 120mm fork (BTR large 26" vs Doctahawk M/L). So I expect it to ride similarly for the most part, it just goes deeper in the travel for those who need that and can appreciate it. I expect Doc to be as happy with his Chromag as I am with my BTR.

Edit: Regarding the original comment. Yeah a comparison would be cool but I wouldn't limit it to the British brands. There are some cool brands out there from other countries. I was close to getting a bike from German brand Portus Cycles instead who also builds steel frames (FS and HT). More off topic, if it is about high pivot trail/enduro bikes, it surprises me to see the Craftworks ENR from @CraftworksCycles hardly being mentioned, if at all.

 @thenotoriousmic: damn straight

 @StraightLineJoe: well said. Waki is what happens when a troll gains just enough of a following to feel important. It’s gone to his head.

He’s an amazing illustrator and sometimes makes a good point or two. But I wonder if he has a life outside this forum.

 Big shocker, Waki has a totally 'hot' take on something that really only turned into a load of the typical nonsense. Calling anyone pretentious is, well, pot meet kettle.

 @WAKIdesigns:

And for those who aren't in it for medals, but just out for a good time?

You seem to have lost the point of what biking is all about.

Yes, my full sus might be smoother, more comfortable and more expensive. But I have far more fun on my hardtail that cost a quarter of the price.

Isn't that what it's all about?

 @WAKIdesigns: Yeah sex is cool but have you ever buzzed the tyre of a SB150 on your orange crush?

 @thenotoriousmic:

Sex is only cool with a hardtail though...don't even go there with a soft one!

 @jlawie: except long travel Hts are soft

 Uh huh, tell me more about how awful it is ride a long travel hardtail. I'll be sure to listen when I'm done hucking urban features, dirt jumping, and roosting trails on a bike that like to be ridden hard and put away wet.

 @focofox37: yeah huh bruh, I’d love to see you attack urban features and dirt jumps on a soft HT with wheelbase 1ft longer than a DJ bike. Barspins all day long.

 Don't care, too much fun to ride to give a shit

 @focofox37: yeah no matter what’s up front having that solid platform in the back allows you do ride it like an oversized bmx bike

 @aps62: YES, yes they are! And i'm the proud owner of one B)

 There is still the very real reason that riding a hardtail can be just easier than riding a full susser. I ride my hardtail most of the time. Yesterday I rode the full susser first time in a long while. Granted it is a shorter bike with relatively narrow rims and the rubber may not be so sticky anymore. So obviously I met my limits much earlier than on my hardtail, but more importantly I found it much harder to sense how far I could push it and where the tires would give up. So eventually I ended up riding with a much bigger safety margin (that is, mellower) than I would on the hardtail. The hardtail is just so much more predictable. You may feel the terrain more but at least you know what's going on. I have not ridden that many bikes so maybe a more modern bike with stiffer suspension would be easier to get on with.

The predictability is one part of the story, of course because of all the older stuff grip wasn't up there in the first place. I plan to tweak things a little to see how it goes. But it also goes to show that stuff like bike geometry, tires and rims etc are so much more important than bicycle suspension.

 @vinay: Honestly most people would be better off on a hardtail just most people won’t accept that they’re not really good enough to justify a full suspension or think full suspension will make them a better rider when really they’re just making life harder for themselves. Hardtails handle better, climb better, way less tiring to ride around all day, easier to maintain, way cheaper, more fun better for your skills and honestly they feel like your going faster and truth be told they do go pretty fast. Full suspension is obviously better on rough sections of trail but a hindrance everywhere else.

 @thenotoriousmic:

Agree with some of what you say...but not much of it.

Handle better - While they tend to be more predictable,saying they handle better very much depends on the bikes/terrain in comparison.

Climb better - Over rooty sections of climbs, the full sus is likely to track the ground better, making it easier to climb. But that would depend if you are on a XC or DH rig?!

Way less tiring to ride around all day - I think most peoples backsides would disagree. Again, terrain and bike dependent.

Easier to maintain - Don't think anyone would deny that.

Way cheaper - Again, depends on the build.

More fun - Depends on the rider/terrain. I don't think anyone would find Fort William or similar tracks more 'fun' on a hardtail. Not saying many wouldn't give it a go, I just don't think it'd be very fun by the bottom

Better for your skills - Would agree with this though. Riding a hardtail certainly makes you pick better lines. My riding style is a lot sloppier when I know I have some wiggle room riding a full sus.

 @jlawie: Yeah, predictability is high on my list. I'd rather know that my bike is not going to solve something for me and do it myself rather than for instance absorb a trail obstacle and then my compression compresses as well, putting me in a bad position to absorb the rebound.

As for climbing, I definitely agree the full susser has better traction over rough climbs. But I don't mind, I like the challenge of finding grip rather than rely on the suspension and then blame it on that if I eventually do spin out somewhere.

I ride my mountainbike for short blasts, typically 2hrs max. And then still I very often split them in 15-30 minutes of more intense riding, often even less. I stand up most of the time (unless I'm really chilling) and as such my back doesn't mind the impacts at all. It just goes through the feet, which is what they are supposed to deal with. That may also be why full suspension bikes don't really work that well for me. I was testing a section of new trail we were building on a bike of another guy. He had to help me lower the dropper posts (wasn't as easy as I thought) and then the suspension still felt a bit upset as I was pushing the bike through corners. I ride a bit more over the front maybe, he said I was too aggressive. I don't know, it was an enduro bike (Canyon Strive, iirc). Cool bike, just doesn't work as well for me.

My hardtail frame definitely wasn't cheap but I just enjoyed getting something exactly the way I wanted. Color, small details, geometry. I think it was a cool experience. Would still be the price for a mid-level aluminium frame I think. To get the same level of customization on a full susser would be very expensive. Either way, you still need all the other components so I'd say for the same kind of build, the hardtail will always be cheaper.

I live in The Netherlands so I definitely don't want the bike to rob me of my challenges . Stuff can be steep, but never long. Rockgardens are all man-made obviously. I haven't ridden anything here were I would rather have had a bit more cushioning. That said, on some very rough terrain abroad the trail chatter just takes away your speed. Rear suspension could solve that. So that goes for Fort William. Then again if I'm just after those challenges, few really live all the way up there so my idea is that it would be much better to get a bike that gives you proper challenges on terrain nearby. If you really live in the big mountains, then get that full suspension bike. But steep and even jumps doesn't necessarily require much suspension, I'd say.

As for skills, probably. But then again I realize that riding a full suspension bike properly also requires skills you never learn on a hardtail. Just like playing electric guitar vs acoustic. Sure acoustic teaches you dynamics, strength etc. But once you plug in that guitar, crank it up and play with heavy distortion, you suddenly realize that you never learned how to mute open strings and everything will sound like a big mess.

 @jlawie: yeah they handle better. They’re more responsive, sharper, easier to throw around, easier to hop obstacles / change line, I could go all day.

Yeah they climb better this is obvious as you don’t have a shock stealing your pedal power and they accelerate a lot better so it’s never a problem adding a bit of speed to carry over a few roots or whatever. You just get used to unweighting the saddle to save that butthole from a hardtail pounding but I do this on my fullsuss anyway. And like I said your shock isn’t stealing your pedal power which really comes into its own when your riding around all day.

Yeah obviously don’t turn up to fort William on your hardtail but I’m just talking about your regular non World Cup racer types of a mountain biker.

 @vinay: The reason I sold an upforked short travel bike that I had for 2 years was because the geometry and the fork were writing cheques the rear couldn’t cash. I ended up in too many situation where I got off line, as we all do (damn it) at “enduro bike speeds” and things were going south rather quickly. Little or no travel in the rear, with high speed geo is all cool and capable, as long everything falls into place. The small detail is that it doesn’t always happen, especially on non familiar trails.

DH bike goes to the other side of the spectrum, it sucks at low speeds, it demands going very fast, preferably on steep stuff with lots of chunk in it. There is a speed, a rather fast speed when it starts to feel alright, when things start falling into place. And while it has enough squish and enough assurance in geo, that it will save your , when it doesn’t, things go bad dramatically. At least when you push it. If you don’t, there is no point in having one. 140-170 bikes hit the good spot of saving your bum and encouraging you to go fast.

Now long travel Ht has aimply too much geo change while it goes trhough travel and zero mercy in the rear. Simple issue of weighing sown and unweighing the bike through chunk can go wrong, since if you miss a beat, the front will fall into a hole, suck it up, bring you to the front of the bike, then The rear will get into the hole and kick you right up. If you clip in, it’s half of the trouble, with enough relaxation in your stance you’ll save it, on flats? You fly head first all the way to the moon. If you on the other hand have a fork that is 140 or 120, the front will get into a hole, and bounce of its opposite side before the rear gets in. You’ll be bouncing on tops of holes. Also, it will keep you from taking stupid decisions of just letting go. You will be all the time reminded that you are on a hardtail and you better not take stupid chances.

 @WAKIdesigns: meh that’s not really true is it? What’s your geo doing as you bottom your forks as your shocks rebounding and then your rear wheel hits whatever made your fork bottom out as that’s rebounding?

 @WAKIdesigns: just put a dh tyre on the back of your hardtail and forget it even exists and just concentrate on your front wheel. Haha

 @thenotoriousmic: yes it is quite true. And no FS riding into a hole will compress both in the front and in the rear. Short travel Ht will not compress yo a point where geo is greatly compromised. Also in G-outs shor travel HT and most FS maintain their geometry, while long travel Ht goes easily through 5 degrees of head angle.

 @WAKIdesigns: not arguing your point, but the main difference that I’ve experienced between HT and FS is oversteer vs. understeer. HT rear end will break loose before the front, and FS rear just sticks to the dirt while the front slides. Of course, this can be tweaked on a FS, but I’d rather just oversteer and put a foot down or ride it out than understeer into a tree or off the edge of something.

 @WAKIdesigns: yeah I really don’t think it’s that much of a big deal. It’s nothing compared to smashing a downhill bike through a rock garden. It’s never like your ever bottomed out for long anyway.

 @thenotoriousmic: if It wasn't much of a big deal I wouldn't voluntarily ride my HT with 120 fork so it stays on top of stuff instead of falling into holes and wobbling around in corners. Preferably with XC tyres. I am embracing the chaos as well as the quad burn. That's what HTs are about. Instead of trying to get as close to a FS as possible without taking the leap. I did it all between 2005 and 2008 and currently sandbag beginner group rides with my DJ from time to time as a form of real life trolling.

 @WAKIdesigns: I'm sure I am doing it wrong (which is why I think it takes special skills to ride full sus too) but in my experience what can happen on a full susser is that when riding steep switchbacks, the front end can dive and the rear comes up simultaneously causing a more extreme geo change than what a hardtail would. I learned later to use more rear brake instead of front brake, as my rear brake tucks the rear end in and helps against the geo change. But as I said, it is something I had to learn. I haven't ridden a hardtail with more than 130mm travel up front whereas my fully has 140mm travel rear and 140mm or 160mm (depending on the fork) up front. But as there are loads of people who get on just fine with a fully like this, I can imagine just as many people could get on with a hardtail with more travel than I am running. It just takes a different approach. I understand that a hardtail shouldn't be ridden as if it were a fully but at the same time I think I can't get away riding a fully as if it were a hardtail. I've also been looking at the DMR Bolt long as a replacement as I understand from reviews that either people don't like it (because it is heavy, not efficient etc), or they say it rides like a hardtail just with a bit more reserve and more traction on the climbs. Should suit me well. Best of all, everything from my Cannondale Prophet fits so I don't need to moan about new standards .

Not sure whether the rear end takes such a beating. Of course my arms are weaker than my legs so it is hard to compare but over rougher stuff I feel my my arms often take more of a beating than my legs. I do feel it afterwards but when riding, it just floats. I think the bike pivots around the bb so an impact on the rear tire just slams the front end and loads the fork too. I am riding with ProCore though. So I'm riding with low pressures (in the tire) and can still protect my rim. My tire once picked up a loose nail from a boardwalk section and punctured the tube. The tire sealed soon enough but I hadn't realized the tube was punctured. It was floating all over the place, burping in every corner. Now I understand why people without inserts don't go as low as 1.1bar . I never really got on with their valve, no way to clean it out once it clogs up. I recently opened a second valve hole in the rim, used a 1" wide tube (with Schaeder valve) inside the blue tire and drilled some holes in the side of a regular tubeless valve which goes in the original valve hole. The airguide sits over it and doesn't migrate as long as the tube remains pressurized. Only downside is that because I also drilled through the rubber sleeve of the valve, the sealant considers it a puncture so when releasing pressure, the sealant closes it and makes it hard to measure pressure. I've got some proper Pepi valves coming my way (CushCore valves should work too but are more expensive). These should solve that and finally allow me to get rid of those ProCore valves. Ehrm, a long winded way to say that I do think you do need low pressures in the tire but also an insert to give them a chance for survival.

 @dobermon: and so what. It’s a different design. And it won’t make anybody ride better than if they were on a Session. Couldn’t be less relevant if it was done by BMW, Ducati or Piaggio

 @dobermon: Relevance goes even further down. Yes I cannot ride a Ducati or any Motorbike what so ever and I could not care less. You can’t make your woman come 3 times within 10 minutes. Can you do it within a month? I can also write tons of stupid comments involving Volvo cars, ice cream and nazis.

 @dobermon: Got laid last night. You mean with a dude? Do you really want to have a really stupid discussion about nothing? We may as well talk about sheep poop in the pudding. Or galvanized pipe in cows pussy? Battle of Midway?

 @WAKIdesigns: You do realize BMW stands for Brooklyn Machine Works, not the car/motorcycle manufacturer, right?

 @vinay: no. It sounds even worse then.

 @dobermon: you are a moron. Considering you speak with pride about owning a BMW motorcycle and Brooklyn Machine Works bikes, you are also a dweeb. I have a wife. Maybe you should get laid? Accusing others of your own traits is common.

 @dobermon:
@WAKIdesigns

Seriously? How old are you two?

 @dobermon: No member of general public really cares whether you ride cane creek or Fox, Enduro or DH or XC - they care whether you can send a huge jump or do a backflip, or if you attend races. In the same way nobody gives a flying damn about your BMW motorcycle, they wonder whether you can go at 250km/h on R1 or jump 50m on KTM MX. If you ask them About a BMW motorcycle they will either tell you about moto Police or a fat dude on parking lot by the highway. If we zoom in into general cycling public nobody cares about some niche bike maker. They want a relatable name and how much it weighs. So please don’t act like you are enlightened and we all should know better where double shock or whatever else came from, because nobody really cares about nerdy dweeby stuff like that.

 @skorp: 120-130mm max on a ht... Can seem to get it through to my mates! Whyte, Bird and Identiti have it sorted.

 @tamarin08: yeah because you’re not right. 160mm is perfect 150mm will do 170mm tad bit much.

 @thenotoriousmic: if you can push hard on a hardtail with such a varying geometry depending on where you are in its fork travel then kudos to you sir!

 @tamarin08: yeah that’s little no effect in real life. The advantages of having more suspension when you haven’t got anything at the back massively outweighs the down sides. You only really notice on drops to flatish landings but normally you compress with it and your forks recovered before you have so it’s never an issue.

 @orientdave: Sorry for the late answer! Yeah, i said you need a rediculously slack bike to have long travel on a HT. Just like a Belter has.
Check out my photos to see what bike i ride

 Jeebus Bobby ... that doesn’t read right ...

 @Screaming-Gecko: damnit Bobby!

 It’s definitely at least what happens when an actual manufacturer/fabricator comes up with an idea which he can implement rather than sourcing samples from all around the world.

 I’ve often asked the same thing if the jack shaft design. Why not make a 100mm travel version?

 Like the guy says “I’m not convinced we need 13 gears”
To be honest I rarely use the full block either so can see where he’s coming from.

 They are based in a country without mountains.

 @pimpin-gimp: Let's see how those 5 pan out here in the Rockies.

 @pimpin-gimp: im out here running 1x10 40t granny gear on a zee rear mech. If I can’t climb it with that, i dont want to

 @rpet: www.walkingenglishman.com/mountains.html just not very high ones.

 @rpet: no mountains (we got 2) but more world class DH'ers than youz
¿

 I live in Colorado and only use about half the gears on my XX1 cassette. I could easily get by with a six or seven speed cassette. I’m totally fine with the bigger gaps between gears I’m always double or triple shifting anyway. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. It’s high time we ditched the super tight Roadie gearing. Less is more sometimes.
Love the bike. Steel is real.

 5 speeds are enough to me and I live in the french Alps
It's only a matter of which speed.
I have nothing to do with a 30x9/11/13/15/17, but I can spend a whole year in the mountains with something equivalent to 30x9/17/25/36/46...

 @Bikethrasher: agree. I have the 10 speed 9-42 e13 cassette, and I think that's the perfect range and spacing for everything besides xc racing. It doesn't shift the best though...

 @pargolf8: love my zee 1x10. its pretty much bomb proof. Im runnin a 36 front ring with a 36 rear cog. its great

 @du4photo: Oh, that shift from 9t to 17t under power will be crunchy... Until that time when the chain will decide it had enough.

 @Bikethrasher: And instead of two smooth shifts under power you'll have a crunchy monstrosity which will require you to slow down and do it under no power at all.

 @nojzilla: We only need the one.

 @pargolf8: damn straight.

 @Bikethrasher: you should check out the box two- e drivetrain. It is 9 speeds and 11-50. Havent tried it yet but other box derailleurs ive tried have been great.

 @pargolf8: Well you could climb it easily with a lower gear and save your knees

 I used to ride singletrack on my freeride bike with a ss rear wheel and 1x6 drivetrain. I ended up using a 28t chainring and 14-28t block and although my top speed was truly hindered (spun out at 14-15mph), I had enough range to get up the really steep hills. But now its strictly dh since I bought my niner. So I run a 36t chainring. Might even change the cassette to 12-25t as well for this season.

 I can’t argue with that. @nojzilla:

 @WAKIdesigns: I love the range of my XX1 but I don’t need all the gears. Wide range less gears. SRAM makes an 8 speed wide range drivetrain and Box makes one as well that I’d like to try out. The Alps have some wicked steep trails. Definitely steeper than here. I’ve been to the UK but I haven’t ridden there. But considering the amount of top level DH riders coming out of the UK I’m guessing they have some good riding.
Most of the trails in Eagle are steep up an steep down. Fast and flowy. The front range has plenty of brutally steep climbs and descents but are much rockier than the trails up here.

 @bohns1: I ran a five speed in Colorado for a year before I switched back to single speed.

 @gunnysun: cool.. But I like uber steep tech climbing

 @sampolicky: This is gospel for me. 9spd, 11-50 with 34T or 36T up front. What else could you possibly need?

 @bohns1: I ain't too posh to push, especially when it's faster to the top than grinding tiny cogs

 @nojzilla: not about faster for me.. Its trying to see if I can make it and link some tech lines on the way up.. Jeff Kendall Weed has Inspired this aspect to my riding despite the fact I have a lot to learn in that discipline. It's fun

 @nojzilla: hear hear. Well said.

 I'd go for a nine speed 10-50 over an eleven speed 10-50, if such a thing existed. Even with the two chainrings and eleven speed 11-28 on my road bike, I'm still between gears at times. The key is to put in a bit more or less effort.

 @pikebait2013: that’s a bunch of bullshite, you’re not climbing anything steep with that gearing, who you trying too fool?

 @Bikethrasher: The trails in the uk aren’t that steep but the stuff we ride is very technical and tight. Our top guys hit these trails very fast and precisely. Once you can ride tight tech trails fast,the open tracks in the alps or where ever seem easy in comparison. I found even tech steep tracks in the alps easier purely because they were at least twice as wide. Check out earthed 5 with the athertons segment. That’s tight,not steep but really quick for how tech it is. That scene reminds me of lots of my uk local trails. But a lot of our trail centres are becoming very basic and I think it’s slowly affecting the next group of riders coming through.

 @WAKIdesigns: there is some definition of mountain, about the vertical distance from saddle to peak. I'm not sure if the UK qualifies. Yes, it does qualify. Snowdon I think. That's a mountain. And wee Ben Nevis could be too.

 @mikelee: Not that steep? Depends where you live?

 @nojzilla: By the book definition of mountain the UK's got 120 of them, which explains all the mountain biking we do.

 @Fix-the-Spade: wow, 120! Not too shabby.

 @nrpuk: yeah man, tell the Anderson boys from Triscombe that their trials are flat!

 He’s right. Who’s actually using all the gears they currently have who’s riding decent trails? I’m never in the top two or bottom two and I’m still on 11 speed.

 @mikeless totally depends on where you are. We’re up to our nipples I’m steep trails here. Come get involved... bring pads.

 @sampolicky: I’ve seen it. SRAM makes an 8 speed e drivetrain as well. But for some reason it still weighs as much as the 12 and it’s crazy expensive.

 @nurseben: 1:1 is low enough for 95% of climbs I deal with.

 @pikebait2013: I toyed with the idea of the SRAM DH 7 speed with 26t chainring. Almost 1:1 low end. I still might do it after I’m in better shape.

 @BeKwik: I built up a custom 6 speed cassette with 9 speed spacing on my hope pro2 ss hub. I'm sure you could fit another cog on there with 10 speed spacing. You would need to use individual road bike cogs and you'd be limited to a 28t largest cog. I personally used an old tiagra derailleur (old 9 speed). It's definitely not the best setup for singletrack but I was working on my my xc bike and my freeride bike was all I had. I made the best with what I had at the time lol.

 Yeah I quite like that idea. I would like to try something like a 50t bottom sprocket with a 38t next door. Close ratios are not necessary at the granny end for my riding. That gear is purely used to keep the heart rate down on long drawn out climbs. The second and third sprockets hardly see any use. Basically just gateway gears to the lowest.

 A tdeuce?

 A great excuse to have another slice of pizza the day before. The more you eat the more your logs will weigh in the morn

 What makes you think it is heavy? It looks pretty slender to me. Just some extra cogs and some more chain.

 @vinay: steel bike, steel cranks ,extra couple dogs and a length of chain. It’s heavy but it’s beautiful . Classic lines with some outside the box functionality. Should work amazing and for a long time. If it cracks revels it or make it even heavier with a gusset. Should be more builders doing this. Too much plastic nowadays

 @vinay: The fact that it's a:
Steel
Coil
170mm
29er
Big long super slack super enduro bike
That thing wouldn't be light if it were made out of unicorn farts.
P.S. Please note I'm not saying that's bad. I think this bike is cool. I'm just saying that due to the fact that it isn't a shortish traveled carbon or well done aluminum trail bike, it isn't light. It's just the nature of the beast.

 @won-sean-animal-chin: A decadeuce? decuse? A kilog?

 @won-sean-animal-chin:
I have a steel Ritchey Breakaway roadie that weighs in at 17 lbs on a 60 cm top tube. With alloy wheels. And the solid steel 11 speed cluster weighs 200 grams.

A steel frame, properly engineered, can be fairly light. And those cranks are gorgeous. With a thin wall oval tube they wouldn't have to be all that heavy.

 @Dangerous-Dan: Haha, you're comparing a road bike to a superenduro bike. Come on! If your roadie was plastic with plastic cranks, itd be 2 pounds lighter. Oh I forgot to mention in my OP, coil shocks front and back. Cranks look like they're profile crsnks= not light. Are you going to compare it to a ritchey p21 next?

 @mtbikeaddict: kilog ftw haaaaa

 @Dangerous-Dan: It's not possible to make a steel frame compete with alloy and carbon for weight in MTB. Theres so many lateral and twisting forces, you can't achieve the same shapes (you're pretty much confined to round tubes and oval tubes at the very most). It can be in the same ballpark and riding characteristics are very good, but a carbon cc HTLT weighs 6lbs for a 150 travel frame. Good luck trying to make a frame that out of steel and still having a bike that's even vaguely stiff and strong.

 @tom666:
@won-sean-animal-chin:

Oh my, you are so right! The forces played into a 150 mm travel bicycle are so wild that one couldn't possibly be built of steel. That's why my 300 mm travel MXer was made out of .......steel??? That's why KTM still makes theirs with a steel main frame?

I never said it would be "lighter", but my steel roadie is the same weight as my Ti roadie, and comparable to a similar priced composite. My adventure tandem is 2.5 stone. With a rack. Made of steel. So it can be repaired almost anywhere in the world. And stiff enough to be stable at 80 km/hr fully laden with about 30 stone.

Let's say that a good composite Enduro weighs in at 2 stone. How much more do you really think a steel frame would weigh? If it weighed a stone the all up weight would still be 2.5 stone. Much lighter than the 40 lb figure given.

Honda made stamped steel motorcycles in the 1960's. No they were not ultra light weight, but those frames were not made from round tubing. We beat them senseless riding off road and they seemed to run forever.

Pole makes two halves and glues them together. It could be done with glued, welded, or brazed steel as well, but the production volumes would need to be much higher to pay for the stamping dies.

Most modern automobiles are made from stamped steel. My Aluminium Jaguar weighs about the same as a comparable steel BMW. Steel does not mean gas pipe.

 @Dangerous-Dan: dont stress it man. Our comments weren't debating the merits of steel(I like steel), we were saying the bike will be heavier because of it. Simple metallurgy/physics really. Strength to weight comparison but we all know there's more benefits to using steel than weight comparison. I'd be ok with a steel frame on my dirt bike. It has a motor. The motor can handle a bit of extra weight for the added compliance and the ability to straighten the frame if I bent it or reweld it if it cracked. The merits and disadvantages of frame construction materials , and their weights, are not up for a debate. It's a sweet bike. I like what these guys are doing. Itd be a great platform to add a emtb motor , because extra weight and motor

 @won-sean-animal-chin: Nah, the comment was like it would be 40lbs. A steel frame would be maybe 1lbs heavier than a comparable aluminium frame, a few aluminium cogs, half a chain. A coil shock adds maybe 200g over an air shock, probably less. This frame doesn't have linkages so fewer (steel) bearings too. The tubular (steel) cranks I have on my BMX don't really feel much heavier than the aluminium cranks I have on my mountainbike. I expect tubular cranks from Profile to be even lighter. Look it depends on your reference. If you say a 100mm travel all carbon XTR equipped marathon full susser is light then yeah, this one won't be. If you take the average 170mm coil sprung travel enduro bike as a reference then this one may still be slightly heavier, but not by much. Either way, it won't be 40lbs. Will it be "heavy"? My first hardtail was aluminium, something like a 2kg frame. My next three hardtail frames were steel, about 2.5kg. It didn't suddenly make them feel heavy. Heck, with all those people here loving bottle mounts on their bikes. If you have a "light" bike and you put a 500ml (full) water bottle in the mount, does it suddenly become a "heavy" bike? The Starling Murmur was also always considered a light bike. That's what Starling is all about. It has been designed by an aerospace engineer after all. Stuff that's too heavy gives them nightmares. I expect the same goes for this one. The weight of the Murmur plus some small Al7075T6 cogs and half a chain.

 @Dangerous-Dan: It's as simple as strength to weight ratio. Steel does not have as good strength to weight ratio as alu or carbon, nor can it be made into as complex shapes. So it will be heavier for the same strength.

However, steel does have great properties, I'm currently in the process of having a custom steel enduro frame made and it's going to be very cool, it's just not going to be 6lbs like a HTLT.

 @tom666: Steel often has a better strength to weight ratio than aluminium, but in case of bending and torsion there is a form factor (inertia) involved. And because of the lower density of aluminium you can get more volume for less weight and make a member subject to bending stronger and stiffer. For something loaded under tension though (like spokes etc), steel beats aluminium. And then we're not even talking about fatigue.

You can go to the geek page on the Cotic website to read more into the reason why they use steel for their frames. There is a place for aluminium and they do use it, but in some places it is just easier to make something strong enough when you make it out of steel.

 @vinay: Steel has great properties and characteristics, but it isn't possible for steel to compete with alu or carbon for weight in the context of a bike frame, which is what my comment said.

 How awesome would it be to try and engineer one that had 6 speeds. Killer for most dh bikes

 Still rocking one on my spesh enduro. Great bit of engineering that solves so many problems and keeps working flawlessly.

 @mrgonzo: Last year I tried to find one here in Chile, there are 2 but no-one wants to sell it

 better the Alfine8

 UK hardcore

 Starlings already built a gearbox prototype

 I think its so the chain cant hit the crank/bb area, it is just single pivot.

 Round dropouts. Better to weld the stays to, but can't slide to tension, so use a bolt on tensioner.

 @blitz66: that is what the mech does. My money is on chain retention. Unless someone REALLY wants to go single speed for enduro...

 @tomhoward379: true. Its on a single speed hub so it's probably the original intention. Climbing singlespeed on a 170mm steel bike. For someone who likes to suffer..

Its probably just to stop the chain rattling on stuff then!

 Since all the frames are custom, I bet he would wield you up a 650b

 *weld

 Knew I’d find you here haha

 Sounds a bit Essex/South East?

 @pbuser2299: Bristol, but close

 I hearts the neg rep #eeb

 I think Joe said on the downtime podcast he was planning to do one, hopefully, that's still in the works. Also Staring bikes are going to be at transcend demo. I'll definitely be going.

 No pictures of the cassette though...

 Nah my bmw is way rustier than that

 @dhmtbr777: Lol was about to @ you... knew I'd find you here.

 @mtbikeaddict: I’m here for the freaky shit, what can I say.

 Agree. Fugly steampunk crap IMO.

 The jack shaft design makes it look like the BB is higher as your eye follows the line of the chain.

I’m confident Joe at Starling knows what he’s doing with geometry.

 @brit-100: Ah yeah you're right, BB is probably in the right place. Aesthetically still a horrible looking bike though IMO appreciate others may like it

 @redrook: Look at this bike from Richi for a while:

www.richi-engineering.de/images/gallery/95.jpg

Then go back to the Starling. I'm sure it looks nice and low now.

 @vinay: Haha I remember those, and Marzocchi monsters. Really just for Josh Bender to drop off cliffs!