Nothing sets the forums or your social media on fire like an e-bike post, with everyone having an opinion on what is probably the most divisive topic in mountain bike circles since the 27.5'' wheel size debacle. But while a mountain bike is still a mountain bike regardless of what size wheels it's rolling on, it gets a bit foggier when you talk about strapping a battery and electric motor to your pedal-operated toy. By all means, ride whatever you want to ride and have fun doing it, but let's figure out what it is that you're doing.
Forget, just for a moment, about any fear you might have of electronics and dead batteries, and let's all crawl down off our high horses when it comes to what's pure and what isn't. Hell, we'll even pretend not to worry about the serious land access issues that could arise, especially in the United States. Why? Because before we do any of those things, we first need to figure out if a mountain bike that has a pedal-assist electric motor powered by a battery is still actually a mountain bike.
Well, is it? E-bikes AREN'T mountain bikesWe all know the major difference between a bicycle and a motorcycle - it's mostly the bit about the motor, and, more specifically, the lack of it on our pedal-powered machines. Simply put, when a bicycle has a motor on it, it stops being a bicycle, doesn't it? This little thing known as the Merriam-Webster dictionary thinks so, saying, ''a 2-wheeled vehicle that a person rides by pushing on foot pedals,'' when you ask for the definition of a bicycle. It doesn't answer with ''a 2-wheeled vehicle that a person rides by pushing on foot pedals that is also assisted by an electric motor,'' does it? Nope, it most certainly doesn't, and a bicycle stops being a bicycle as soon as more than your legs are moving it forward.
This isn't about mountain bikes versus e-bikes, or one being better or more fun than the other; it's simply about making a clear distinction between the two. A mountain bike doesn't have a motor of any kind on it, regardless of if it's made by a cycling company, gas or electric powered, or if it's self-propelled or assisted. End of story.
E-bikes ARE mountain bikesSuspension, disc brakes, dropper seat posts, geometry; you can't stop evolution, and the people who balked at those advancements in mountain bike technology and design over the last twenty years sound a lot like the same people who are turning up their noses over e-bikes. Things change, get used to it, and you'd be silly to allow a stuffy one hundred and sixty year old dictionary to define what is and isn't a mountain bike in 2016. The bottom line is that these e-bikes are being designed and made by cycling companies, feature many of the same components, and are meant to do pretty much the same thing, only much more of it and at a faster speed. That sounds like fun, doesn't it?
You can complain all you want about motors and batteries, but e-bikes cover more ground, and usually at a quicker pace than your antiquated motor-less mountain bike. And, most importantly, you're still mountain biking while you're doing it.
Can an e-bike still be a mountain bike?
Are you considering trying an e-bike in the next 12 months?
Are a bunch of companies focusing a ton of their efforts and marketing towards motor-assisted bicycles? For sure, but let's look past that for the sake of this poll. And forget about when, where, and how a bicycle might be better than an e-bike and vice versa. Just answer this not so simple question: is an e-bike still a bicycle?
But that's the KEY to this issue Mike. One that can't be ignored. And from decades of trail advocacy I can tell you that it would set back biking in BC
What if an e-bike isn't viewed as a mountain bike at all? What if it is?
Virtually any rider would endorse Martyn Ashton's right to ride his custom Sender wherever he wishes, despite it being a genuine electric motorcycle. This exception is an empathetic reflex, and if applied, it should be applied equally - that is, he shouldn't get to do it just because he's famous. The problem is that bicyclists don't fall into easily defined categories in terms of their abilities; we're a continuum. Ashton is an extreme example of a disabled rider, but not every disability is as visually evident as his. Two riders, one with an autoimmune disorder and one who's just quite slow, could easily exhibit the same VO2 max and power output. Which deserves to use an e-bike? Both? Neither? Who decides? What qualifies someone as being sufficiently disabled to warrant e-bike usage, or even disabled at all? I mean, we're all disabled relative to Schurter. Should motor wattage perhaps be limited to prevent the excessive and reckless speed that is most likely to cause trail conflict? If so, how would those limits be enforced? Furthermore, would they have to be proportionate to the disability? Who decides THAT? What makes the issue of e-MTBs so onerous in particular is that there is neither infrastructure nor precedent to answer these questions.
I wish I had a reasonable, clear and clean solution to this problem; I have none. That e-bikes represent a credible and imminent threat to our sport is manifest; whether the threat stems from their potential for flagrant misuse, or their existence outright, is somewhat less clear. At this point, my tentative answer is this: that there is perhaps a speed that NO trail user, regardless of discipline, should be allowed to exceed on a given shared-use trail, for the sake of public safety. That doesn't seem too unreasonable, and it's pretty fundamental. Professional racers can descend just as quickly on a conventional mountain bike as on an e-bike, as can many amateur riders. If Richie Rude came blasting down one of my local shared-use trails, he would not be spared the ire of hikers and equestrians just because he wasn't being helped by a motor ; he would be put to the torch for speeding just as surely as an overenthusiastic e-biker would. It clearly isn't the philosophical "impurity" of an e-bike that makes it problematic; it's the speed and associated potential for trail damage.
Two more thoughts. Firstly, it seems to me that e-bikes will for the forseeable future be acceptable in bike parks. Descending at 20 mph only puts e-bikes in conflict with non-bicycle trail users, and it seems absurd to the point of hilarity to imagine an e-biker colliding with a regular rider by CLIMBING into him at that speed. Secondly, I can think of another special circumstance, other than disability, that might allow for e-bike use - park rangers. I'm not one, so I wouldn't know for certain, but it seems to me that in many regions, patrolling footpaths by 27.5+ e-bike would be tremendously more efficient than by horseback or on foot, and even more so in an emergency.
Then, you can't even stop the industry from pushing the thing. You just can't. Their lobby seems even better than your lobby for trail access. Mountain bikers have pretty much nothing to say about E-bikes and what they do, they behave like a mad preacher speaking of evils of abortion. That reflects reality rather closely. Some people call it truth.
Show concern, but know your place. That is freaks in the woods.
go get on one and take it for a blast then see how much sweat is dripping from you!
I'm leaning towards thinking that adding a motor changes the design limitations and parameters enough that it should be classed as a motor vehicle - issues of weight, suspension design (chain growth, pedal bob) etc that are critical to a purely human-powered machine can become secondary when a motor can simply over-ride or compensate for those limitations. And the manufacturers *will* engage in that arms race - more and more powerful motors, greater weight, higher speeds, greater range - and for us, hello controversy and goodbye trail access if they *are* classed as mountain bikes.
On the other hand, no-one would want to deny Martyn Ashton and other riders with 'legitimate needs' (note the inverted commas - how do we define this even?) access to trails on an assisted bike... and the devil is gonna be in these details. @bluefire expresses this better than I can.
tldr - I'm still undecided. It's complicated, but the definition of an e-bike is key to figuring this out.
If you try one and put effort in to it I promise you will sweat, also if you ride it hard your upper body will have a workout as well from muscling the extra weight around.
As for the you being passed... I was upset when the old fat man passed me in his Ferrari with his trophy wife in the passenger seat! dose it mean he was a F1 driver, who knows???
@cripps: how exactly riding a MX makes you any better? Cuz what it's a widely recognized sport? I show you E-bike rider and you show me Ricky Carmichael? Butyou are not Ricky Carmichael... you are just a dude on a motorcycle, who feels better about himself cuz he rides a motorcycle. How good are you at it, is irrelevant isn't it?
What kind of fkng idiotic bunch of half-arsed arguments is that? How insecure do you have to be about yours position in this world to get triggered by a dude in a Ferrari or to look down at someone cuz you ride moto? BEJESUS
I tell you what, get 2 small kids out of the house in the morning to get them to the day care, feed them, dress them up, all without losing your temper and I will appreciate the size of your penis. It's about perspective, life is too big to have deep emotional issues with E-bikes.
Whether those Canyon contraptions featured in the misnamed EWS Preview should be defined as mountainbikes is the least relevant question we could ask...
I'm not against ebikes (as commuters or workhorses), I just worry about what they may do to the sport I participate in, which is a pedal powered bicycle based activity. I feel they should be featured on their own separate website...not marketed through a bicycle focused media outlet.
We could call it Pinky Bike!
Most riders on normal bikes will travel that speed on the flats/gentle climbs and a lot faster on the descents!
Wouldn't an unskilled rider be capable of hurting them self on any bike???
There are a lot of trails for motor bikes and in my view that is where E-Bikes belong. It makes the above question simple. In Europe maybe the regulations for trail use are more liberal than in NA. But if you have a bunch of people show up with E-Bikes on a mixed use human power trail, it is easy to see mountain bikes being banded from those trails. If mountain bikers don't see them as mountain bikes then what do you think hikers and equestrians will view them as?
I'm not against E-Bikes but they are not mountain bikes they are motor bikes. In the US there are trail advocacy groups for motor bikes (AMA...). One day I maybe require the use of an E-Bike to enjoy the outdoors on a trail, but I would be foolish to just show up at a mountain bike trail and not expect a controversy. Just because mountain bike makers develop a product doesn't make it a mountain bike.
Also, since when does the speed of someone riding a bike uphill (also without churning up the trails as we all know they don't) matter to you? Unless you are the type to be angry that someone passed you so therefore they are 'cheating' and 'not mountain biking'.
Absolute bollocks.
An e-bike does not have 'it's own propulsion system' at all. That would mean you sit on it, and it rides without you doing anything at all. Which is not the case. If you don't pedal the 50lb bike weight, they simply do not move an inch.
An e-bike is no different at all.
Get a grip dude and try to learn the differences between the two things.
E-bike, a pedal bike that can go wherever the hell it likes as it does no more damage to trails than normal bikes, that gives a little power up to a maximum of 15mph as long as you are still pedaling the whole time and actually riding it. Otherwise, no assist. So, how is it not a mountain bike then?
And seriously the tired 'but but but, my precious memories of bikes don't have pedal assist on them' is not really an argument that holds any weight.
Ok, name me a motorbike that can be ridden everywhere without the engine being on?
Then remember that an e-bike can still be ridden as normal with no pedal assist activated . . . . You know, because it is a bike.
Try watching this- don't see any pedaling
www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjNQdIUGP-E
www.youtube.com/watch?v=D17Bwfd2dLw
The fact you think that videos of deliberately made custom high powered electric bikes are somehow the same thing or even relevant at all says it all about you and the point you are trying to make.
But, nice try though.
This site is easily the most powerful site the Mtn Bike community has. If it stops all Moped/ E-bike coverage. The industry will take notice. We must show that we are two different groups. The sooner we make that clear the better.
E-bikers we are not the same.E-bikers you need to start your own sites and work on trail access for your selves. We worked very hard to get where we are. Just like it doesn't make sense for us to join forces with Dirt bikers and off roaders. It doesn't make sense for us to allow Ebikers to attach themselves to us. The sooner Mtn Bike Media segregates us from Ebikes the stronger our stance is. We fought hard to get people to understand that Dirt bikes and Mtn bikes aren't the same in my town. It took some time to educate people on the obvious difference. Once people finally realized there was a difference. Many doors where opened in our community. More trail access and new nomotorized trails.
Sorry Ebikers I am not one of you. Stand and be proud of who you are. It's time you made your own path.......
Forget the term e-bike, that is too ambiguous as it can mean 2 totally different things, so, in terms of simply moving these things - how is a MOPED the same as a PEDAL ASSIST E-MTB - I am genuinely interested in how and why people see these bikes in the way you do because there is a definite mis-communication from the MTB industry, and even more so, the MTB media, about the difference between the types of e-bikes.
Even Pinkbikes Facebook headline says "is an e-bike still a mountain bike" which is so wrong that I almost bought a ticket to Canada just to bitch slap that twats that wrote it!!
I would bet 99% of the population would not know a rider is on a e bike when it goes by them on a trail.
It was frickin awesome!!! The DH portions of trail were kinda meh compared to my regular rig. The weight of the bike made it difficult to really throw the bike around or get any air off the jumps.
However, the climbing was a riot!!! It's weird since you have to pedal to get assist when in some sections I'd prefer going 50/50 on the pedals to float over rocks and roots. The best part though was riding the e-bike for about 25miles during the day then later going to my shop's group ride, which averages about 12 miles, with plenty left in the tank to shred. Being able to ride for longer periods without being totally gas'd was very cool.
You have no say or anything in what this site is about now or ever will be about. The fact this discussion is happening proves you wrong.
"Strictly speaking, mopeds are driven by both an engine and by bicycle pedals, but in common usage and in many jurisdictions the term moped is used for similar vehicles including a scooter, though this is quite erroneous."
So there's no engine, it's a motor. An electric all-terrain moped, if you will. Mountain moped.
Its really a moot point though. Non mountain bikers arnt going to be able to tell the difference between the two. They both look so similar to the untrained eye, that they will undoubtedly be lumped in with "mountain bikes" regardless of what the mtb community decides.
When some hikers see trail damage, or someone going irresponsibly fast. they arnt going to go all CSI trying to determine if their immediate emotional response might be directed at the wrong type of bicycle. They are going to look around, see people on bikes, and blame them, all of them.
Even if it is decided that ebikes, arnt/are bikes, how does that change anything. This is like the transgender bathroom debate of mountain biking. They are here. It cant be policed. Its up to individuals to act responsibly.
From what ive seen with motos, im not optimistic about e bikes on mtb trails. It would be nice to think that all the ebikes will just use the assist to get to the trail head and then pedal the extra several pounds of battery/motor around with them, and NOT roost all the turns... but i dont think thats going to happen.
Your logic is what is bullshit.
Don't just pick and choose the bits you want!
Take the bad with the good!
I'm just trying to figure out where your line is. Because a line drawn at "Does it have a motor or not," is a lot more clear and logical than "does it have a motor and something else undefined or not."
Yes to all. There is a good line to start from. Pretty obvious line as well really.
Any modded e-bike beyond those very basic parameters is not part of the discussion no matter how often people try to make it so.
I will confess I was very much like most people on hear saying its crap without ever ridden one!
One day I had the opportunity to try one and decided why not. it took all of 3 minutes to decide that I would one day own one!
Blind leading the blind open your eyes and minds.
These "things", as we'll call them here to avoid any bias, have 2 wells, suspensions, a chain, like any Trek or KTM. And that is important, because they are made to enjoy the same things, being outdoor having fun riding trails. ( and believe where I live there is NO SEPARATION of trails between musclebikes and motorbikes (KTM ...) and it works fine). Someone respectfull of trails will do so on a bikes, an e-bike, a MX , and a jackass will ruin everything whatever he rides. Nobody waited for e-bike to show up to close trails, I has been a thing for a long time.
Now, I'd really be happy if everyone, instead of ranting against each other because his bike sports a battery or not. That is a detail, the real danger for MTB is the behaviors of riders toward HIKERS ( and vice versa). It is when someone goes down mach chiken and he barely slows down when passing pedestrians, it's when mountainbikers (muscle, motor, magic, whatever) scare the hell out of others that the sport is in danger.
Unfortunately I haven't been everywhere in the world but I know the alps pretty well. When I went for Chamonix to Zermatt by bike the guide kept repeating us to pass pedestrians no faster than a running/walking man, not to scare them. He kept saying that keeping charging was 1) a form of selfishness/ disrespect 2) the best way to have bikes banned from singletracks and relegated to fireroads ( or worse). Those who believe their middlename is "Gwin" think they are in control ( or not) and know what's going on, but hikers just see berzerks coming hot on them with little escape ( and that's frightening).
So rather than spending all of our precious energy shouting without listening the others, if we want the 2-wheeled hobbies to grow happy and healthy, we have to spend a lot of time doing educating riders to behave properly on trails. To end on a very provocative note, I'll simply point out that the bikers acting as if the mountain was their own ( which usually is not) are the first to point e-bikes as the main threat to the sport.
Please end this debate quietly, let pinkbike be a joyfull website where everyone is stoked for everything, go ride BUT PLEASE BEHAVE LIKE A TRUE RIDER, respect others, that's what's important.
if e-bike aren't mountain bikes because there is a motor helping you going uphill...... how come we call downhill bikes ... mountain bikes as well when you have to take a freaking lift to go up ?
You win.
Also, not sure what your point is for, as this isn't a discussion about access rights is it. It is a discussion about the definition of something. So all you have done is ignore the bits where you are wrong and then move the goal posts to talking about access instead as if that is some kind of confirmation. It isn't.
Ebikes are an evolution of 2 wheeled sports. They are NOT, however, the same as regular bicycles, as they have a motor, and should be treated as such. If that difference does not prevent you from riding your local trails, awesome. Some of us don't have that luxury, and this issue makes the proper classification of this new mode of transportation paramount.
This issue isn't only about trail access. It's about calling a product what it really is (Moped). Pedal assist or Twist the throttle til the battery dies then pedal that thing home. Ebikes are nothing more than battery powered Mopeds. Why is this so complicated?
Yes, there are e bikes that have throttles and no, we would not want them on the trails - the MTB industry need to distance themselves from self propelled e-bikes, rename, remarket and reeducate so people know exactly what pedal assist is all about, anyone doing what you say, then yes, give them a stern talking to, but they are not what the industry is trying to sell us
The simple answer is, no.
It may be an off road E-bike, but it is not a mountain bike.
This is, of course, about the MTB industry and NOT all the other bikes that are ebikes and that have been around for ages, mainly commuters and also, unfortunately, some companies that have slapped thatr hub motor thing on supermarket style mountain bikes, these should be ignored and are the kind of things that beginners will buy, use a few times before remembering that the outside is a bad place and retire them to the back of the garage never to be seen again
Merriam-Webster
Full Definition of bicycle
: a vehicle with two wheels tandem, handlebars for steering, a saddle seat, and pedals by which it is propelled.
Add an electric motor and it's now a motorized vehicle, not a bike. Pretty straight forward. No open or closed mindedness needed
I quoted the definition of a bicycle.
E assists doesn't mean effortless and if you had ever tried to ride a 50+ pound e bike at your normal speed on your favorite trails you would know these things that weigh more that 10 year old DH bikes are anything but effortless to ride fast.
There could be a place for them but it would have to be Ebike specific trails requiring maintenance at more regular intervals, this would make such trails more costly to access to cover the extra time and man power to maintain them.
Maybe normal trail access should be extended to any registered disabled individuals, but outside of these requirements let's keep existing trail networks for those who have earned the descent.
But I can also say with absolute confidence my local area I have built many trails have eroded far quicker through Ebike use than any half decent mountain biker.
Not Ebike hater but don't wish to see them all over the trails, but I guess progression is what it is and we have to roll with it whatever form it takes.
Exactly - the level of (in the literal sense of the word) IGNORANCE around the subject (most notably on the other side of the Atlantic, so I shouldn't be surprised, really) is staggering.
I saved this for just this kind of conversation:
ebiketips.co.uk/content/news/victoria-pendleton-on-e-bikes-this-is-what-it-feels-like-to-be-really-fit-445
VP is a world-class athlete by any definition and SHE gets e-bikes.
"It won't be too funny when unskilled riders start injuring themselves because they are pushing the bike beyond their skill levels"
Oh sure - because that NEVER happens on normal bikes...
"Can anyone tell me what damage (if any) an E bike is supposed to do on trails?"
The already thoroughly-proven answer to that question is: NONE.
It's just more reactionary BS from these ridiculous Flat Earthers...
"Mtn bikes don't Have Motors Period."
You don't get to make that decision.
"Let's all agree on that"
No, let's not.
Oh, FFS - we're TALKING ABOUT pedal-assist bikes, you clown!
That's dangerously open-minded, Stampers - you'll frighten and confuse many of your compatriots with that attitude...
"when you put a motor on a two wheeled vehicle they call that a motor cycle"
Idiots do, that's true...
You DO understand that when you're riding a normal bike You are - entirely literally - a motor?
Oh FFS - the fact that it might be possible to convert an pedal-assist e-bike to throttle only (which is massively harder to do than you seem to think, incidentally) is a desperately retarded "argument",
Like Victoria Pendleton, right?
ebiketips.co.uk/content/news/victoria-pendleton-on-e-bikes-this-is-what-it-feels-like-to-be-really-fit-445
Bell-end...
"not complicated,"
Clearly too complicated for that knuckle-dragger...
"Ebikes for the lazy sloth losers of society "
Like Victoria Pendleton? (look her up. muppet):
ebiketips.co.uk/content/news/victoria-pendleton-on-e-bikes-this-is-what-it-feels-like-to-be-really-fit-445
YOU are a motor when you're pedalling a normal bike, you dolt...
"as far trails go these will be destroyed in a short time due to the extra power applied through the rear wheel over normal human input at the crank."
A complete, bare-faced, ignorant, thoroughly disproven, LIE.
Also you have 'rode' several, despite hating them.... Odd that you would have 'rode' several then. Sounds more like you are just saying you have to try and emphasise your massively flawed argument.
And feeling you have to tell everyone what actual motorbike you own..... What does that prove? Other than showing you are trying to brag about it.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws
Who decide what manufacturers are part of the ‘industry’?
My Lenz Lunchbox is from a small builder in CO, so does that mean he isn't part of the industry?
There are many small manufacturers making high powered non assist bikes that will tear up trails.
You can't choose to conveniently ignore that because you want to.
Here is only one example with 2 sec of searching. There will be more kits and modifications on the market very quickly.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUMTidRuYww
I promise you, you will not find any sites of this kind of size where e-bikes will not be appearing.
Are people dismissing the motor aspect because it's electric? Electric motors are higher performance than gas. Google Tesla S P1000D. Destroys every gas car in the quarter mile.
Step.1 there's an enemy, whos's the enemy?
Step.2 It's them, kill the enemy.
Step.3 They're among us! Find them and kill them!
Step4.It's me. Ends either with becoming healthy or with suicide.
I
*Hint* When choosing an example to refute an argument, try not to choose anyone who gets paid to endorse the thing you're arguing for. It's like saying that pro athletes truly enjoy Monster Energy drink because you saw them drinking out of one of the cans.
Like the tranny you banged the other night. It definitely looked like a girl, but even a small penis is still a penis none the less. So by definition it's still a dude.
The damage will come when people retro-fit 1000 watt+ kits to bikes. A friend of mine recently imported one of these kits from china, a Bafang bottom bracket mount kit with throttle control. It does nearly 80km/h on the flat and can get air going up hills that I'm crawling up in granny gear. following along behind it i can see the small roost of dirt coming up off the back wheel and it can dig holes if you press the throttle while stationary. Hes since stopped using it on the trails because of the damage it was doing and hate he was receiving. It can be limited to pedal assist and a speed cut out, but why would you when you have 1000W available at the push of a button?
I think 300watt or less pedal assist only E-bikes are awesome for certain types of people. Most people who buy them aren't going to ride them on our trails anyway
The damage will come when people retro-fit 1000 watt+ kits to bikes. A friend of mine recently imported one of these kits from china, a Bafang bottom bracket mount kit with throttle control. It does nearly 80km/h on the flat and can get air going up hills that I'm crawling up in granny gear. following along behind it I can see the small roost of dirt coming up off the back wheel and it can dig holes if you press the throttle while stationary. He has since stopped using it on the trails because of the damage it was doing and hate he was receiving. It can be limited to pedal assist and a speed cut out, but why would you when you have 1000W available at the push of a button?
I think 300watt or less pedal assist only E-bikes are awesome for certain types of people. Most people who buy them aren't going to ride them on our trails anyway
E-bikes are definitely not bicycles; Just as Snooker is not the same as 8-ball Pool...But they do both require the same skills and happen in the same place.
In the UK the law is completely clear: since 1/1/2016 it is illegal to sell a power-assisted bicycle (mtb, road or commuter) with a motor more than 250watts. Speed is limited to 15.5mph (25km/h) and throttle-only only gets you to 3mph (5km/h).
(Bear with me here...) The problem for commuting is the speed, which just isn't fast enough to keep up in most city traffic and furthermore the UK doesn't have road infrastructure seperating bikes from cars, mostly just painted (virtual) lines on the road. However, if I'm facing a 30mph headwind on the way home on a friday evening, after a long week, with 112miles already in my legs over 5 days, 15.5mph would be heaven. Problem: cars pull out in front of you (from side roads) because drivers don't anticipate a 'bicycle' to be going that fast!
My point here is: great product, in wrong environment/facilities and sharing with other non-bike aware transport gets disappointing results.
(Now lets talk about mtb) E-bikes make riding more accessible, so more people will be riding 'bikes'. Great! But, as others say in this thread, e-mtbs don't work everywhere; they're best on long, steep climbs; you can even ride super-steep, uber-tech climbs that would be impossible/boring grinds on any mtb, so fast its as fun as descending. Honestly. On technical singletrack the power surge when you do half a pedal stroke, before a berm or to avoid a rock, can spit you off-line. Descending wide-path or wheels-on-the-ground is better than an mtb, because you can hold more speed or quickly regain speed. But, in the air they're too heavy, for jumps designed for 'normal' bikes.
Overall: to get the most out of E-mtbs and really continue growing participation off-road-riding we need e-bike specific,purpose built, graded, trails. Which you could also ride on a normal bike.
For us in the UK; E-mtbs (under 250w) should remain classed (legally) as bicycles. As in comments below, legal bikes are not fast enough to make a clear difference/distinction between an e-mtb and a fit rider on a 'normal' bike.
Overall: you could ride a non-e-bike on an e-bike path. But its not as much fun (as it could be) to ride an e-bike on a 'normal' bike path.
So finally, my questions to you are:
would changing the legal classification of ebikes actually solve the problems of trail access? Or create more?
And,
Would the US be better served by having clearer guidelines on the power/specs of e-bikes in different catergories (mtb, road, commute) ?
They never have sex. Nobody wants to touch their genitals. They wash them everyday and then one day they die. That's what happens.
Don't feel guilty if you like e-bikes, nothing wrong with that, still much better than being gay
But seriously, the only "problem" with e-bikes is that they will bring masses to MTB. I do not think that a signle e-bike can do more damage to a trail than any other allmnountain bike. But the sole purpose of creating/purchasing e-bike is easier riding uphill, and It is quite stupid to argue with that. So, easier = more people = more damage - simple. The effect will be more (e)bike dedicated trails and most probably total ban for all bikes from non-dedicated trails. Any regulation to distinguish bikes from e-bikes will fail, the industry has already taken care - it is enough to read this thread to see how thin the line is.
As for a local and central governments in the United States are concerned, the majority of land managers and Advocate groups see the law as it's designed, and are working on getting E-MTB access that the law has forbade.
I for one don't see a problem with E-MTB as it will mostly be used by the aging crowd, weak kneed rider(s). And I truly do want to see a smile on everyone's face at the top of the ridge! And many of these older riders have a lot of wisdom to pass on.
On the matter of MTB wilderness access: The Wilderness Society and the Seirra Club used online Strava data to show the USFS the dangers of mountain biking multi-use trails in the wilderness. E-MTB has never been brought up by the to conservancy groups that lobbied to have MTB removed from the wilderness... There have been several articles about it here on PB.
That says a lot. I also must say that I am not completely sold on allowing MTBs into remote wilderness either, and perhaps even in forests closer to town we should have a clearer separation between biking and hiking only trails, for the good of everybody.
I must say, recently something cracked in me and as much as I plan to excell at MTB, I start to dislike mountain bikers in general more and more. From this position I say f*ck the growth of the sport.
In general, Fuk the growth of the human species,
Each time the surge comes, you get trails filled with folks with little idea what they are doing, with little experience with interaction with other trail users, they just discover a brand new world and want to get most of it. Like we all did, like everybody does. But these days it's much more of them than back in 2005. Oh yes, we get bikeparks popping up, trail centers growing everywhere and it is all thanks to that growth. But there is no denying that this takes it's toll on access to wilderness or any other non-official MTB trails.
I just find it quite assholish to be a relatively harmful ingredient in the use of natural areas, and point fingers at who is more harmful. We have to be aware that we are supporting our own cause for purely egoistic reasons, which are not exactly clean. Compared to hikers, Mountain bikes are noisier, cause more erosion per unit and are scarrier to other users. That's it.
Nothing wrong with tech or anything else its how we use things that matters.
And dogs that are not under control and poorly trained are probably the worst and scarriest thing I encounter when out and about on a ramble through nature.
Well done.
Only experienced riders because the speeds are faster??? I almost think you've never ridden a bicycle. They have brakes right? Most inexperienced riders I have seen and taught are on the brakes all the time. Thus slowing them down right? How the hell does an ebike make them faster? All it does is make the experience easier.
I see you point about inexperienced riders but you can set a controller on a electric bike to do abs braking/regenerative braking and as the speeds are higher than standard mtb you have to be looking further and react faster which is the same as a motorcycle and that's why I think ebike are motorbikes (ebike 80mph +up hill - mtb 50mph if your good on a step hill)
Of my own need to study the issue I talked with dealers who sell E-MTB in my area, which happens to be almost in the middle of some the best trails the PNW has to offer.
Their responses were that E-MTB rides are being bought by a majority of older people, around 45 and up. It was the same across all five shops. And that there is a slow growing trend of younger people buying E-commuter style bikes.
My favorite LBS a few months ago sold an E-MTB to a man who had back surgery to help him walk properly again. I just learned about this when asking the E-MTB question to the various shops.
I hope this helps you understand where I'm getting my perspective of the issue.
RIDE WHAT YOU WANT, BUT I'll stay old school, with my 10 speed and cable actuated drivetrains.
You mean to tell me you covered 32 miles in under an hour??? Your average speed was above 32mph? You don't have to lie to make a point lol or at least make it believable.
And the argument about whether or not you're getting a workout is not the question. I get a workout riding my moto, too.
Secondly: Normally the gravity fraction gives a shit how or how fast they get up the mountain, because it is all for the fun on the downhills. But apparently that changes with the word e-bike. Sounds hypocritical. I see a lot of made up arguments there. On the downs it does't matter which bike you ride, they all go the same speed/do the same damage/whatever. And don't come with that BS argument "But they can cover three times as much ground in the same time and therefore do more damage". That's not reality. It just does not happen like that. There maybe one exception and that is Vouilloz :-).
So how is an e-bike not a mountain bike? Despite all the hate even I have for them, I think they should be allowed everywhere, where a montain bike is allowed. Since it is a mountain bike. That is just my thought when I try to think in a rational and fair way. Of course there is a lot more energy and resource involved in production and a lot of e-waste afterwards. Which is not ideal, but I only hear that arguement very occasionally.
So there you have it. I cringe when I see the Finale pics with the media guys on e-bikes, but you have to stay fair at the same time and try to make fair n square arguments. Most stuff I read on hear sounds more like religion or lobbyism tbh...
If you are walking down the trail at a popular mountain biking area you expect people to come up behind you fast on mountain bikes, you are ready for it, it doesn't scare you. When walking up a steep trail people are not expecting bikes to come up fast behind them, that is when they get scared and scared people generally get angry once the fear fades. Angry people tend to make a lot of noise an try to get the source of their fear banned. Lumping regular mountain bikes in with those irresponsible motorbikers in mountain bike disguise is the worry.
There are irresponsible mountain bikers. I understand that but the high powered eBikes are likely to appeal to those riders and allow them to be even more irresponsible.
I've watched it carefully and to me it's human nature to look at people doing something and think, "Oh I don't like that, so it's wrong." It takes a special and rare person to see people having fun, regardless of what it is, and not judge them for it.
Having said all of that, I'm stoked that E-bikes are fun for people, the same as I am for moto's, or horses, or anything. However I don't think that they're the same as mountain bikes regardless of sharing some similar components. I don't really understand why they rate the same trail access as a mountain bike does.
" It's my own personal opinion that as soon as you provide any additional forward propulsion power outside of gravity and our legs, it stops being a bicycle."
Gravity assist is OK, but electric assist isn't? That's hypocrisy, isn't it? And we're just ignoring the fact that YOU'RE a motor when you pedal an ordinary bike?
It all boils down to this: if you need to pedal it to make it go IT'S A BICYCLE. Any other view or objection is just an arbitrary division based on no logical thinking, much ignorance, and massive uninformed bias.
there is now way a 56 year man could come up with these comparisons, its just not possible to be that off the mark at such an experienced age.
are you sure you are really 56?
Self-reliance...not motor reliance.
Mountain biking can be tough (and enjoyable) just like trail running, hiking, climbing and any other outdoor activity. If you can't bike up the hill, practice till you can. If you can't run a 5 minute mile, practice till you can, don't go out and buy rollerblades instead.
Anyway, I think E-bikes have a purpose and that is to help handicapped or elderly people enjoy the outdoors. For other people I really don't get it.
And ALL Of these come into play when riding an e-bike.
"Self-reliance...not motor reliance."
So you don't load your bike onto your car to get to your trails? You would never take a chair-lift up to the top of a downhill run?
Bollocks.
Anyway, in my opinion E-bikes are not mountain bikes, simple as that.
So downhill bikes are not mountain bikes? Because I rarely see someone pedaling one up a mountain.
I used to dislike ebikes a lot, but recently I visited Switzerland (where those are at least as popular as in Germany, if not more) and I noticed that really pretty much every road there goes uphill, which can be quite annoying.
When it comes to the argument that they may somehow destroy the nature, what will have more impact;
1) An ebike?
2) A truck that will transport you up?
3) A chairlift you build in your bike park after chopping down a few hundred trees?
The only things I don't like are the weight, the price and the fact that if your ebike breaks down, you need an expert to fix it. But I can imagine situations when having an ebike could be the best of all the bad options.
How many motorcycles can still be ridden anywhere with no engine attached to them?
In some ways, yes, there are similarities. As passenger vehicles become increasingly automated, self-shuttling will also become a thing. Still doesn't change the underlying fact about where the motive force is coming from.
Exactly. And that's PRECISELY what you do with e-bikes...
Where's your evidence to back up your claim? If you've ridden an ebike you would understand.
Then, when you point it downhill, it's basically the same as a normal bike, although I guess you could accelerate away from slow corners a bit quicker, but exiting most corners you're going to be somewhere near the 15mph where the motor cuts out already. Again, it's not like a dirt bike, you can't stay seated and use the throttle to power through.
A common view among the ignorant and intellectually lazy...
You get to decide that?
I didn't get the memo...
Do you feel good about yourself, being this ignorant?
E-bikes need to be pedalled, just like ordinary bikes: they cause no more trail damage than ordinary bikes: you get just as much of a work-out as from ordinary bikes (you just go longer and have more fun in the process); and the support cuts off at a speed most people can easily reach without assist anyway.
So what - EXACTLY - is the problem?
I'll tell you. Ignorance and prejudice.
Yours.
In practical terms an e-bike is just the 21st century equivalent of that extra power-gel you find in the bottom of your bag that gets you home when you've blown up.
They're NOT The Devil...
disclaimer: i see ebikes (users) 5 days a week. they're all happy with it, but its like a super light motorbike to them.
None. An e-bike however, as it is a push bike with pedals that are needed in order for it to move, can keep on going regardless. So yeah, it is a bike.
Oh, they go uphill faster (which by the way isn't necessarily true either, just another wild assumption), so they must be coming downhill faster?! What on earth is that all about. That logic applies to any bike surely though you know.
Also, you keep mentioning unskilled riders and 'dh' bikes? Why?
it has a motor, therefore it's a motorcycle. The method of activating the motor is immaterial.
Pushing your car (as well as being the worst attempt at an argument for a while on here) is not even remotely the same thing.
Oh wait, are you so scared someone will get to the top of a hill a bit quicker than you that this is where the fear and anger at them comes from? Why does it matter that they offer a relatively small amount of assist up to 15mph then they cut out? Why is that such a big deal? Baffling stuff.
pushing my car is your argument, not mine. it doesn't matter if it's speed limited, my car is still a car even though NASCAR cars are faster and a different driving experience.
I don't have a problem with electric motorcycles, I have a problem with calling them bicycles. They are not.
No, motor = motorcycle is not how it works though. You are nitpicking at language to try and prove your point and it just isn't right at all. A motorcycle needs constant power from the motor in order to move.
An e-bike doesn't need any motor power in order to move. Infact, they demand that you power it to move it. And then you can even ride it with no motor assist at all with no hindrance in it's ability to ride.
So no, not even remotely the same thing. Keep trying.
An automobile is an automobile because it can provide motive force for itself with an engine.
If you put a bike trainer inside a car and insisted that it only move when the driver turns over the pedals, it doesn't make it cease to be an automobile...
i might be wrong but it appears that lots of muricans are confusing e-assist bikes with those electric mx jobbies that ktm and a few others have been playing around with over the last few years.
Electric assist and electric motocross are going to be increasingly similar (at least the trials-type eMX and all-mountain eMTB's will evolve convergently). I'm not confusing them, I'm uniquely aware (having done chemical engineering research on improving power density for fuel cells and battery systems) that as power density evolves, the 'assist' portion of that will be increasingly irrelevant... if 750W of power is available simply by turning over the pedals, it might as well be a motorcycle. If it's speed-limited, then it's just a speed-limited motorcycle.
i work at a shop that has a demo cube e-bike and have ridden it quite a few times and the majority of people don't even notice that its an e-bike let alone fly into fits of rage and that includes walkers and horsey folk.
"Cars have foot-operated throttles too, and require isometric exercise to keep powered. Same difference."
The bullshit on here just beggars belief...
And WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT THEM!
Just dumbing it down for the US witch-burners on here...
Yep - glad I live in the civilised world...
No, they really are - because they're ASSUMPTIONS, yet you present them with the authority of incontrovertible fact.
And they're SO not that...
Look, if someone invented silent air hockey, would you be fighting to get it put in the library?
However i don't think they should be considered an evolution to take mountain bikes to the next step (like suspension and brakes etc) racing should be racer vs racer and using a motor to go faster is cheating when it comes to the pinnacle of the sport and competition.
I'm a long time bike rider (everything from BMX to road to mtb to motocross. Hell. I even have a few vintage bikes) and now I'm an e-bike owner. Why? Because after my initial reaction of "those things suck" I tried one and realized a few key things. Firstly it is the perfect tool for my wife to use and actually be able to keep up with me. It's a great way for riders who don't have the base fitness required to experience a real mountain bike ride.
Secondly. They're darn fun to ride and they are a great work out. Sure you can go and spin with the assist dialed way up and barely break a sweat. You just won't go very far due to the limits of the battery. If you are a rider already you will just go out and hammer and get a lot more done in a shorter time. You will still be beat. Just like you would be on a regular bike. The added weight does also make for more of a workout on a descent.
There are a lot of misconceptions out there:
1. They're motor bikes / mopeds: No. They don't have a throttle and will not move unless you pedal. Even a moped that requires a pedal start has a motor that takes over 100%.
they're dead quiet and unlike a bike with an internal combustion engine they make no noise and don't pose a fire danger ( two major reasons why MOTOR bikes are often banned).
The one's classed as e-bikes have pedal assist and shut off at a certain speed. This is a fundamental difference between an e-motorbike with a throttle.
2.They damage trails: They really don't. You don't go roosting around like a motocross bike. The real impact the bike has on a trail is the same as a regular bike. Especially one with fattie tires. The grip more and therefore spin and slide less and actually, in my experience, damage the trail less than my regular trail bike.
3. Unskilled riders will get themselves into trouble: Anyone can ride above their head and break themselves off. Just watch a WC DH race. Because of their weight E-bikes are more challenging to ride over technical terrain. Up or Down.
4. E-bike riders will endanger other riders while pedaling uphill: No. Even though they're capable of doing 20mph before the motor stops assisting you can't really climb anything steeper than a mild fireroad with the assist at 100% to achieve that speed. In reality you're just plonking along 2-3mph faster than normal. If you were to try and climb at full speed you range will be severely limited.
5. You're cheating: Really?? I didn't realize I was in a race. Those of you in a constant virtual race (Strava) need to get a life or actually go out and race. I really feel that this is the major reason why the mtb community is against them. If we're being honest with ourselves.
6. It will bring more people to the trails: So what? Isn't there strength in numbers. Who are you to say who can enjoy the joys of being on a trail. Perhaps that will lead to a larger acceptance of the sport and more trails being built.
7. More people will go deeper into the back country: Not really. As it stands now you're pretty limited on range. In my experience ( a fairly fit rider) I can get about 20 miles and 4-5 thousand feet of climbing in which is about the same as what I would consider a big ride for me. That is largely at only 15% assist which overcomes the weight of the bike and makes me feel like me on my best and fittest day. I'm still working hard. The difference is that I can do it in under two hours.
8: They endanger other trail users: No more than a regular bike. A lycra clad hammer head going up trail will pose about as much threat as the average e-bike user and the full face clad DH / Enduro rider bombing down a trail certainly will.
9. They're not mountain bikes: True. They're not but they're about 90% the same and negative perceptions aside I really don't see a real reason why the deserve all the hate. Just like a hard tail xc bike is not the same as a DH bike an E-bike is not the same as either of those two. They're all for different applications but none are bad unless you try to use them outside of their intended use.
10: E-bikes belong on off road vehicle trails: Absolutely not! I would never EVER ride an e-bike on the same tries I ride my CRF 450 R on. The speeds are so different that it would be seriously dangerous to all users.
11: They use electricity therefore they suck. Well if you ever drive to a trail head in a car, shuttle your bikes or use a ski lift. You are a hypocrite. Lets not mention that if you live in a developed country, use electricity to power your smart phone, computer and basically your whole life then you should't have an issue here.
So where does this leave E-bikes? With a serous identity problem and I see no way around it. If even the mountain bike community takes a knee jerk negative reaction to them they have no hope of surviving.
Lets keep things in perspective relative to the worlds real problems. You're riding a bike on a man made trail somewhere pretty. It's not really a big deal in the grand scheme of things. Even regular trails users are not doing the planet any favors. IMHO these are first world problems that really don't warrant some of the reactions I'm seeing here.
It would be nice if we could all take an objective and reasonable approach to something new but that's just not the way humans are wired in general. Our initial reaction to anything different is to be against it and perceive it as a threat. Sad but that is just the way the world works...
1: Still motorized. Unless the motor cutoff is set to walking pace, they are effectively faster on whole trails. Can still be modified fairly easily to function off a throttle pedal [especially since disability-mobility variants will exist].
2. More users, plus the ability to bring more momentum into areas. It may not be significantly more per user, and still better than horses, but cumulative impact is still more trail impact.
3. Completely true - but making the vehicle itself harder to maneuver (added weight of battery/motor) plus more speed is still a combination that will result in crashes from newer users. Not actually that big a negative, but will happen.
4. Still relevant with the speed delta between an uphill motorbike and a hiker - until other users learn to expect something traveling faster than a full speed sprinter heading uphill, there will be trail conflict. As power output and batter life increases, riders will be able to go uphill at twice the speed in most instances.
5. AGREE - who cares really
6. See point 2.
7. On current models, sure. As power density for batteries increase along with efficiency of motor packages, we'll see an order of magnitude increase in range. Have to look at what's likely to happen in the future, not just what's right in front of our faces.
8. See point 4, and with some further clarification that they are faster and heavier vehicles. Even without breaking the pedelec archetype (which will also happen), they will still be faster heavier bikes. Add more users (see point 6) and incidence of incidents will go up, period.
9. Nailed it - THEY'RE NOT MOUNTAIN BIKES. The similarities and perception issues you mention are part of why they pose difficulties for trail access and advocacy. They are cool vehicles in their own right, but that doesn't make them bicycles, and in instances where human-powered access is the paradigm shared use trails are built around, they'll be a negative disruptive force for wheeled access.
10. Yes, they do in the US. Because they're motorized, they should be used on trails where motor vehicles are permitted. Private land is also a great place. Just because you don't have the type of OHV trails that would be favorable for this class of vehicle doesn't invalidate the fundamental point.
11. Quite the opposite - for the same reasons Tesla vehicles are the future, eBikes will be the future of off-road motorcycles for many applications. As they become more powerful, they'll see more use. Electric trials motobikes are already getting better, and will continue to. Very lightweight ones will blur the line with eMTB's, which is actually a really good thing.
I agree with a lot of your analysis at the end - new and different things are usually bagged on unnecessarily, but objective analysis has to be honest. They shouldn't be used or viewed as bicycles. They are their own unique thing, which will actually be extremely rad once the power density is sorted out, and areas where their usage doesn't conflict with other users found.
Ironically, as eBikes become more awesome, which they will, then a lot of the issues discussed above will show up in the forefront of discussion, particularly regarding access in multi-user trail situations.
If you have double a normal human output on tap for a couple of hours, there won't be that major a distinction between an XC bike and an All-Mountain bike. The 6-8" travel bike will be plenty quick over smoother stuff (especially with electronically controlled suspension bits which can go to platform/lockout reactively based on accelerometer inputs), so one would require only one bike for everywhere eMTB's can go. The real question would become lighter, lower range with single crown, or burlier with a double crown (although the inverted forks hay obviate even this question)
But after he jumped off and said, give it a try... I sang to a different tune. I have a 2015 Giant Reign which I love to death and I have 5 other worthy rides... he told me the bike is 50lbs and if you put 2 clicks to the switch, it is like knocking 20lbs off the bike and would feel much the same as my Reign. And seeing you still have to peddle the bike to have the motor assit you, that's indeed how it felt going up hill. And being 50lbs it felt as stable as my Intense M3 dh bike.. It also cost $200 cheaper then my Reign at $5800. I might not own one now but at 57 years old I might soon enough..hahaha. not getting any younger and this will keep me riding a Hell of a lot longer. Also at full I had the rear tire torqueing up a rocky climb like a dirt bike..it's bad ass
Secondly, you say you had the rear tire torqueing up a rocky climb like a motorbike? I think that is exactly the thing that many of use who treasure our trails are worried about. Adn imiagine if you did that on a multi-use trail in front of some hiker who who just LOVES to complain to the local paper of government representative about how much damage MTBs are doing to the environment. Not cool.
Wrong - it means that the same level of fitness will be maintainable for much longer.
I've told my friends that when the time comes, we should get dirt bikes so we can still get out and rip, do some hair scramble, turkey runs and just ride. We see dirt bikes in the woods all the time and have no problem with them..matter of fact we get into it more often with hikers then anyone else. where I ride it's us the mtn bikers that do all the trail work. So I take it to heart when an a*shole with a walking stick stops to give me a piece of their mined. They lose!!!!
When I said a rocky section, That's what it was ROCK solid rock, which did nothing to degrade the trail.. Hell I can get my mtn bike to do the same thing on a slick day...spin..
So if I decide to get an E-bike, its because its just another way of keeping my riding a bike at the pace I enjoy without jumping on a HONDA..
At some point in your life you will understand where I am coming from.
My nick name from my friends is the leader, not because I'm the fastest or the best. It's because at my age you have learned to think before you shoot your mouth off.
I am that guy you see in the woods with a chain saw and a rake and shovel keeping our trails in good condition for everyone to enjoy. I do like your concern for our sport!!
Stay thirsty my friend!!
Errmaagerrd it's a grass bike
nerrrrrrrrrr it's a path bike
waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa it's a man made trail bike
I don't like that it's so forced by the industry though
But, the push still continues to sell us something we don't want or like, and didn't ask for. Sort of like, if you say something enough times, it becomes "true". Not happening with the e-bikes. At least as far as pinkbike users are concerned.
But whatever. The main point - it has a mechanical non-human motor = not a bicycle, no matter how you dress it up or market the thing.
"Motor vehicles, including motorcycles, ATV's and similar vehicles, are restricted to the vehicle roads and parking lots."
There is a passage in the same text referring to bicycles being permitted on designated trails.
The source for the link above was the BC Parks regulations. Here's the link
www.bclaws.ca/civix/document/id/loo84/loo84/180_90_01
BC Parks takes the position that ebikes are "self-propelled vehicles" per s. 24. Please.. I'm just the bearer of news. This was what I learned from the Chilcotin planning process.
What I do know is that BC Parks rangers use ebikes for maintenance ie for getting stuff in and out. What I can suggest is asking for permission for you as a trailworker to cart stuff in and out for trailwork
National parks is willing to spend millions on installing fences to keep wildlife off the hiways but nothing on trail maintenance and then give tickets out to individuals who try to keep trails usable.
Not all e bikes are self propelled, and to allow workers to ride them and not public is hilarious if its true.
I am sure nobody will ever notice me riding a levo on any trail network, why ask for permission from people who have no idea what they are making decisions on. Of course they will say no because they are to scared to do something different than what they have always done.
The only new people e-mtb is bringing are lazy and/or old people which is obviously a bad thing
On the flipside, I can't even count how many times I've been coming down double black diamond runs and come out of a corner with a couple of people who've never ridden DH, just standing in the middle of the trail with their bikes strewn around, gawking at the "huuuuge jump" ahead. Then I usually end up off the trail trying to avoid them.
I guess it just boils down to new riders never learning proper trail etiquette. I think that if ebikes bring more folks onto the trails, I think that there needs to be more outreach to educate folks on proper etiquette.
I'm looking at trails I've been riding for 20 years being shut to me because of 'the more'.
"The only new people e-mtb is bringing are lazy and/or old people which is obviously a bad thing"
Utter, utter bullshit:
ebiketips.co.uk/content/news/victoria-pendleton-on-e-bikes-this-is-what-it-feels-like-to-be-really-fit-445
So we're talking about the lower speed stuff. It doesn't matter for the rest of your ride. Now say you're on a section you'd be able to ride at 15km/h. A motor could potentially bump you up to 25km/h. Instead, a very strong and fit rider could ride your regular bike and just go 25km/h unassisted. Does that matter much to the trail, whether the e-bike goes 25km/h or the strong rider goes 25km/h unassisted? I'd say not. Sure the regular cyclist may be more subtle whilst climbing but then again, a strong road cyclist on a mountainbike wouldn't necessarily be all that subtle either.
So that's the question you're asking here. If the bike bumps your lower speed up to the speed a very fit rider could accomplish unassisted and for the rest of the ride is exactly indentical to a regular mountainbike, should it no longer be called a mountainbike? Why would you want to know in the first place? If you encounter a chameleon that has the unheard capability of, aside from all it's regular colorways (had to put in here), can also have black and white stripes. Would it no longer be a chameleon and should it be treated as a zebra instead?
You're not just FULL of shit, it's actually overflowing.
I'm 56 (is that "old"?) and I could almost certainly ride rings around you on an ordinary bike. But it's a simple fact that there's more fun to be had, for longer, on an e-bike - and that's why I ride one.
If you can't understand that, I suggest you pay more attention in school (because you're - what? 14 years old, based on the infantile crap you're coming up with here...)
That being said Im pretty sure the riding level is different in uk, so i dont doubt that the level of the crowds riding e bikes is also different. Since emtb was originally a german thing, you should come in germany, austria and swiss and see how most of ebikers are here
My 2c would be to class e-bikes as a completely separate vehicle, and let e-bikers lobby for their own trail access. In a lot of cases that may well be mtb trails, and the lobbying could happen by mtb groups and companies, but either way, sort out the legality before risking spoiling it all for everyone.
You've got to figure that's what the march of progress is likely to give us in say five years? I think at that point the motors will become as common as dropper posts, just another tool to allow you to get through the ups so you can enjoy the downs.
You're really not very bright, are you?
E-bikes DO NOT MEAN no effort. Exactly the opposite, in fact. What they mean is CHOICE.
And to clarify, no there is no choice, you can't pedal without the electric assistance (too heavy)...and the mode in which the motor just compensate the extra weight is a joke
Its the evolution away from gasoline and provides a platform for many people who can't ride regular bikes.
Do I agree with e-bikes blasting trails, not really but as a bike for adventures or commuting it has a high value.
Most trails, we get our thrills out of the natural features but look at modern trails, wicked sections turned into buff flow trails to better suit more riders, well thats what an E-bike represents, a platform to better suit more riders.
I see a future of people running to stores, moms picking up kids and people running around town on little mini e-cars or bikes rather than heavy gas guzzling pigs that we call cars!
Think about its abilities.
When hikers look at us mountain bikers their impression is we are destroying the trails, true or not? So, why should we be bashing a platform that will ultimately be our living future?
I do think that some of the emerging sport possibilities would be straight up killer - 10 mile sprint races with Turbo-LEV type bikes over mixed terrain that includes everything from drafting to dropping DH track-rough stuff would be badass to watch or participate in. May not be an olympic sport, but would be a pretty awesome extreme sport, and maybe a cool idea for paralympics.
what the hell are you talking about?
wow.what planet are you from?
As for land use in the States thus far I believe that the USFS called them motorcycles. So go ride them on 2 track and moto trails. Perhaps the ACLU will get ahold of this and open them for disabled everywhere. Hopefully keen land managers will see this is a new activity and allow them on some trails, not on others. Things like numbers of users, lines of sight, balance of hikers, horses etc would give a good idea when it is ok and when it is not. We are talking about public land use. Not mountain biker land use, not hiker use etc. The goal should be to allow the maximum number of people the maximum number of ways to enjoy their public lands.
look at the history or motorcycles. most of the motorcycle companies were actually bike companies. they started by strapping motors to the bike frames they already made (and even kept the pedals to start them). so, from the very beginning putting a motor on a bicycle = motorcycle.
if you want to ride a motorcycle, buy one of these: www.ktm.com/enduro/350-exc-f-1 and hit me up and i'll take you on rides that will make you soil your trousers. if you don't want to deal with gasoline you could buy a real e-bike: www.ktm.com/us/e-ride
Well it's the logic of a simpleton, if that's what you mean...
Clearly, as evidenced by this poll, the main constituent of the sport reviles the notion of a bike that does the work for you. Meanwhile, almost every single mountain bike journalist has cow towed to the bike industry, enabling (promoting even) this, the evisceration of the soul of the sport, because they know which side their bread is buttered on. They dare not bite the hand that feeds. Secure in the notion that as long as they continue to rationalize and obfuscate, that their publication will retain its comfy little spot with the people who pay them.
I fear that "journalist" isn't really the appropriate term any longer. Industry shill, lobbyist, spin doctor... any one is more accurate at this point.
Easy for me to say, right? My career isn't on the line for speaking the truth and taking a stand. I can only vote with my legs, and commit to never owning an ebike.
If, COLLECTIVELY, current riders AND journalists put up a united front against ebikes, then maybe there would be a chance that the industry would pull its head out of its a$$ and stop trying to shove them down our throats. But, it seems as though every mtb outlet has the same response "they're here, there is nothing we can do about it, so just shut up and deal".
I'm sorry but that's just plain deplorable. The literal soul of the sport is at risk, and it's loudest voices just sit idly by.
And it will more than likely happen before anyone can stop it. Then you can kiss your trail access goodbye. Forget about the whole Wlderness access battle. Equestrians, and hikers, and land managers, and forest rangers WON'T CARE what it is that you're TECHNICALLY riding. They don't have the time, or the resources to try and distinguish between the two. As soon as the stories of trail damage, people getting stranded in the wilderness, collisions with other trail users, (not to mention the exploding number of riders who would get into the sport because they no longer have to move their lazy asses up the hill), trails will start getting shut down.
Which e-bikes DO NOT do.
More cluelessness...
Ignorance really must be bliss, given how much of it is happily being demonstrated on here:
ebiketips.co.uk/content/news/victoria-pendleton-on-e-bikes-this-is-what-it-feels-like-to-be-really-fit-445
Tell VP she's disabled, not able-bodied, or "plain lazy"...
One question for those how say they are good for people with previous injury I'm kind of wondering what sort of injury would keep you from pedaling but not controlling the bike, I ask this because currently I'm recovering from a knee injury which hurts like hell to put power down when climbing up hill but also when holding a line while cornering and going through rough stuff so I don't see how a E bike could help me. Just curious about other people experiences before I make an opinion.
"Human-powered".
Because you don't know the first thing about them, I imagine...
Its and E bike, an Electric bike with an electric motor.
If a dirt bike didn't have a motor would it still be a dirt bike?
-The End.
"WE" think of the ebike as cheating?
Who's this imaginary "we" you've invented?
Because THIS UK rider KNOWS there's nothing remotely hooky about riding an ebike.
does it a have a motor yes do you still pedal yes does it bring more people to the outdoors YES so is Good for the sport, the environment, and the Industry.
I think we should stop the arguing and get on with the regulations
I propose the E bike should be Pedal assist and not exceed 10 miles an hour on its on power...
I've seen a lot of changes in my life of moto/enduro racing.
Mark these words: there will be a generation of recreational Mtn bikers that wouldn't consider riding without motor assist.
What's good about that?
What's BAD about it? You saying it is?
Back in the day, if you were tough enough you could ride a scooter down the sidewalk.
Now we have electric scooters. Everybody's doing it...
Wow I knew I should've commented last night when there is only 20 some odd people that commented.
I live in extremely beautiful, diversely terrain, and multi climate place!
I have seen this type of attitude when it came to lots of sport such as kite surfing, standup paddling, and back in the day when snowboards came around!
All of those sports has gotten people that normally wouldn't be interested in it off the couch and outside!
And the biggest reason why all of them I've gotten so popular and grown so exponentially is....
The feeling you get from it is so fun and does not compare to anything else that you've done in your life at that point!
Plain fact you can't stop how something feels no matter what you say or you do!
Here's a little fact and story. I know a couple of Redbull athletes, if you know anything about Redbull there's only two or three athletes and every athletic category that can wear that gear. These people/ athletes are the apitame of or the very top tier of whatever sport they're doing.
These people can pretty much take any sport and never doing it,shred at it way above any normal human beings level, they are very talented and gifted people!
That being said the two RedBull athletes I know have the ebikes and they have ref mountain bikes, but all they do is ride Ebikes! Do you think these elite athletes want to deprive them self of the feeling of exercise that they get from a regular bike? Would they not be on a regular bike?
They tell me that they get more exercise and go further and do much more extreme things the new Ever would on a regular bike!
The studies have shown that the impact is non-registrable compared to regular bikes! And I haven't heard of any extraordinary incidents more than any mountain biker between pedestrians in them!
I think forms like this is great because it starts conversation good or bad and it will help us form what we need to regulate these things.
Whether you like it or not these things are the future and their coming!
Either get behind it and help shape and inform people, or get out of the way!
My previous comment was more making fun of a European guy stating that European are more open minded; I didn't expect to be understood as European are as dumb as other people
I don't give a shit if they pass me uphill, it s anyway generally the opposite that happens. But i would not call e-biker fellow mountain biker : i'm going up thanks to my legs, i'm closer to hikers than ebikers.
Shimano also make fishing reels, I'm not going to put one on my bike though.
Realistically, e-bikes aren't really bicycles, hence why they have a different name. I'm not totally against them, I just think they should be limited to people who really need them.
Realistically, you don't know what you're talking about. They are 100% "bicycles".
They go when you pedal them; they go when the battery's flat; they go with the support turned off;
The only significant difference is that they give you the choice to have a hard or an easy day, and they'll get you home if you blow up on a hard day.
Not rocket science, is it?
these ones simulate the mtb experience, which is cool, but painting stripes on a horse does not make a zebra.
I've you've got no physical reason for using them, not cool.
They don't ride like real MTBs any way, you stop pedalling, it's like dragging the brakes. You have to pedal constantly to maintain any sort of speed, which means you can't ride properly.
Sitting down twiddling the pedals isn't MTBing IMO, that's just off road road biking.
Can't believe there's so much hate towards something that can get more people out riding. More riders means a bigger demand for places to ride, which in turn means that more trails and routes become viable for both those on Ebikes and those doing it themselves.
I can't speak for the draconian access rights in the States but I know here (UK) any pedal assist bikes (not the stuff like the twist and go Beta's and KTM's that you can buy) whilst frowned upon by some are not flat out banned.
But "person power" is a motor: you are providing the MOTIVE POWER, therefore you're - literally and figuratively - a motor!
All you're doing here is demonstrating where your personal prejudices incline you to draw the arbitrary line...
www.thefreedictionary.com/motive+power
Not so simple after all, eh?
Mountain biking is a feeling, not the act.
If it's the act only, then we need to also do something about the overweight, video game-playing skid kiddies having their dads drive them to the top in their Chevy trucks. Is that mountain biking, or is that reciprocating engine-assisted cycling?
If I lived in a country that has such a hard time gaining right's to ride in areas/trails I would be hating on anything that would potently upset the issue even more!
If these issues didn't exist I think there would be a larger uptake on E-bikes as the rest of the MTB world is heavily influenced by American trends, No there are NOT motorbikes (unless it has a twist throttle) but they are blurring the lines between the two.
After riding one I have to admit it was the most fun I've had in a long time on two wheels, There will always be people who wouldn't touch one with a barge pole, they can be a lot of fun its just a shame some people can be so narrow minded, If we carried on like this we would all be still going about on a horse and cart
it's a motorcycle, that doesn't mean it's not fun or should necessarily be banned everywhere.
I support any innovation that would help those who have difficulty pedaling a bike onto the trails. But, let's stop trying to define it as a mountain bike. There's nothing wrong with it being an "e-bike". If access becomes an issue for e-bikes on trails, then it is the responsibility of its users or proponents to work on getting access.
Personally, if I can't pedal anymore, I'm taking up something else. UNLESS, there's an invention that I can put on my legs to help pedal a mountain bike again.
Personally I think you should earn your descents (easy to say when the highest mountain in Ireland is just over 3000ft) and mountainbiking is as much about the ups as the downs (with the odd treat of a lift assist day in the bike park).
a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GE-4mrKA-z4">Bosch Speed Box/a>
A motor is a motor, doesn't matter if it's electric.
Voluntary E-bike users need disdain. And even more than that they need pity. And even above this they need therapy.
Or maybe that's just me...
(edit-removed a comma).
Oh sure - a perfect description of this:
www.e-bikeshop.co.uk/Moustache-Samedi-Race-8-2017
Seriously - could you at least TRY not talking such shite? Just for a bit?
I stand by everything I said. That's hideous, inefficient, and poorly concieved. It's a coal-fired, precious resource-mined, fat and unsafe bucket of lazy for anyone who has fully finctioning legs.
(rage edit) In addition - it would be better for your inter-personal skills, and the general wellbeing of your heart, if you didn't take personal offence at a clearly comedic commentary of personal opinion. And especially don't take a personal vendetta against me when this is the first of my (very few) comments you've replied to.
I FOUND THE E-BIKE RIDER EVERYONE - LYNCH HIM!!!
Maybe there is a benefit for bikepackers, but just like if you try to cheat your way to chads gap without permission, I think the stink eye will be ever prevalent at slickrock and enchilada toward E bikes.
For others that want to use them for whatever reason, go ahead, the trail will filter the type of rider skill/bike normally so I really don't expect to many issues, particularly with enduro and DH. As long as they can keep up and don't kill the flow for others I rekon ppl can ride any bike that has pedals wherever they have the skills to do so.
If too many riders is the issue, build more trail. If getting permission to build is the issue, petition until it becomes a reality, or just move to NZ. We have better beer too.
No to motorcycles on my local trails.
Cheers
E-bikes have a motor, they are motorbikes, shitty ones, but still motorbikes, not mountain bikes!
I don't understand why people hate really, yeah it's assisting you but it's not taking the fun out of it!
Decades ago guys would have said you were "Cheating" when you rode a bike with more then one gear... then of course you were "Cheating" cause you rode a full suspension bike instead of a hardtail... these are all common things now so just accept that something like this may just become the future
I'm not a fan of them, but I am a fan of electric power as much as I am a fan of human power. I'm not convinced these would cause any major problems as long as all people involved aren't dicks & douches & I'd much rather share trails with riders on these, than dickheaded equestrians with their 1500 pound shit factories & hikers with their stupidity, ignorance & probably walking some 20-200 pound shit factory too.
XC guys never cared for DH guys on the trails & vice versa, but there are ways to make it work. As long as the rig ain't noisier than what we're already ridin' then I really couldn't give a shit. GTFOI.
If it's got gears, is it a bike?
If it's got disc brakes, is it a bike?
If it's got suspension, is it a bike?
If it's got mudguards, is it a bike?
If it's got panniers, is it a bike?
If it's got leather tassles on the handlebars, is it a bike?
@pinkbike if you need any more ideas for polls, I'm your man.
When i'm old i will get one, until then it will be "1 horse powered machine".
Land access is definitely a complicated other factor in the debate though, and I sympathise with those over the pond whose trail access really could be at threat. By calling them mountain bikes, it creates an additional reason to ban all mountain biking on a particular trail or area. By calling them something different, that enables the access for e-bikes to be negotiated separately without putting existing MTB access at risk.
Electric bikes aren't slow or low-powered versions of "real" motorcycles. Three years ago, an electric motorcycle won the pikes peak hill climb. The fastest production motorcycle is an electric motorcycle. They can go over 200mph and do 0 to 60 mph in less than one second. And this technology is still progressing rapidly. While already fast, each year they are getting faster.
We could try banning just ebikes above a certain speed or power. Yet that would fail. It is impossible to enforce exactly which bikes are allowed or not allowed. Slow bikes look exactly the same as fast bikes. With that in mind, i am advocating that ebikes be considered motorcycles in terms of trail access.
No - and as ebikes ARE NOT motocross bikes or motorcycles, we're good, aren't we?
You'd think differently on this (my ride):
www.cube.eu/uk/products/e-bike-fullsuspension/stereo-hybrid/cube-stereo-hybrid-140-hpa-pro-500-275-blacknflashred-2016
That's a perfect - PERFECT - description of an e-bike!
Trails are usually maintained by groups of hikers, mostly older guys who initially didn’t like bikers much (we didn’t like them much either ). A dozen of bikers have helped them maintaining or creating trails, we’re sort of young and full of energy so I think we did about 800m of trail in a day.
Basically after a beer everybody’s chatting and it’s all good.
All in all, there’s a minority of stupid bikers and stupid hikers making all the noise, and a vast majority of nice people just wishing to enjoy the trails.
The point is, if every biker and e-biker using the trails would « sacrifice » one day of the year to get in touch with such groups and maintain the trails, those childish feuds would disappear.
I’m not even talking about e-bikes as I don’t think they will be much of a problem. Maybe I’m wrong but I don’t think countless waves of « e-riders » will suddenly storm and destroy the trails.
Like some have said in those comments, I would draw the line between « normal » e-bikes limited to 250W and 25km/h, and those that look more like an electric bike with hand throttle and a backpack full of batteries.
Also, speed record and aggressive riding, whether electrically assisted or not, should be limited to non-sensible areas or bikeparks.
Funny thing is, for now those that are the most vocal against e-bikes haven’t been much vocal about helping maintaining the trails…
Do you seriously think that fun is IN ANY WAY diminished by riding a good e-bike?
Clue: the opposite happens.
And a human is therefore THE MOTOR.
By your logic (I use the word VERY loosely) we'd have to ban that too...
Duh, indeed.
cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/63495939.jpg
Why do you get so upset for having an extra option for cycling?
Why do you hate people that have the same hobby as you and just want to spend more time on the saddle, in nature?
I'm sure all of you elitists don't use the chairlift either?
What is the difference. No tickets?
Use it as a shuttle to get to the top then switch over to freewheel.
If a car has an electric motor it's still a car. Most jurisdictions have or had moped licensing (I'm old enough to remember).Enough with the Newspeak.
And YOU are the motor on an ordinary bike. What happens now? Only bikes without RIDERS allowed on the trails?
I must also say: f*ck YOU
Yes, I am a motor to a bike. I feel the max watts that I can produce. What happens now is whenever I accidently scare a hiker I can apologize for working so hard to get that fast. If I had a motor... I can't quite say the same thing, hikers would be puzzled as to why an electric moped was on these trails.
Everyone agree that DH rigs that using lift up to mountain and ride down is mountain bike
No chain run is also mountain biking.
I don`t sure E-MTB is mountain bike or not, but it certainly can do mountain biking.
As for the argument on the industry, you have only got to look at the amount of trail centers and bike parks opened in Wales in recent years to see that
"So, What Happens to Mountain Bikes?
The truth is: e-bikes never were mountain bikes. They were never designed to be human powered. Anyone who has been unfortunate enough to pedal one with a dead battery can attest to that. E-bike makers, however convinced a lot of people that they actually were mountain bikes and explaining that lie, unfortunately, will fall upon mountain bikers, who will also bear the brunt of the inevitable user-conflicts and burnt bridges that will be left in the wake of electric-powered off-road cyclists."
and what about those who have problems riding a normal mtb? my mate got run over by a car and now has one leg sorter than the other. he found riding a normal mtb was getting painful and not like it used to be. he got a lapire ebike and is back out on the trails. so he shouldnt be riding cos he need an ebike?
I am sick of seeing people call these MOTORBIKES ... "because they have a motor" ... DUH!!!! but, if all they see from the little (if any) research is crap like this
youtu.be/kUhVdO5JJ30?t=2m38s
.. which does not help the cause at all .. and these are what people see as e-bikes, then they see Martyn Ashton on one and instantly assume that the MTB Industry e-bikes, you know, the PEDAL ASSIST ones, are just for people with disabilities!!!!
They should not have called them e-bikes, and while it would not have stopped all the crap aimed at them, at least we could have had some definite separation between what a PEDAL ASSIST bikes is compared to the existing e-bikes that have been around for an age.
www.pinkbike.com/photo/14063908
Hell YES lol
this is my 72 vott 5000watt E-bike
Pushbike = Bicycle
Motorbike = Motorcycle
E-Bikes have motors. Done.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQIcXmwicwU&feature=youtu.be
An ordinary bike has a motor too - you.
Ban riders, then?
Says who, exactly?
wow pinkbike. first time i noticed you really censor the word f*ck !? XD
YOU are the motor on your ordinary bike, Einstein. Now what?
4.bp.blogspot.com/-ThK57uCS9yg/TjlQ_hY6QzI/AAAAAAAAAR0/DhmiL_oD598/s1600/DSC05851.JPG
Do you ride it on hills/mountains? Yes.
It is still a mountain bike.
Point two: the practical consequences: you introduce something extraneous in an existing ecisystem: faster, heavier, in combination with potentially less experienced. There is going to be attrition for sure. Is it worth it? You can always go MOAR but a lot of the challenge is to do it with a given and limited amount if ressources, to learn economy, also your own energy and strenght. Where is the balance? If you allow e bikes then you conceptually it is same as having someone take a moto and rig cranks to it. Batteries and electric engines can scale up very fast. So my proposal is: treat it as a different thing: offroad ebiking and give them their own parks. Or limit them so much that a weak person can go as much as a average rider. Ab acerage rider gas an ftp of 220. A non fit one maybe 120? That would be 100 watts. Give them another bit to offset the weight and it is ok.
In synthesis: an ebike should make an unfit rider into an average one. Not anyone climbs like schurter else you create an unbalance. If they ride like pushbikes ok, else it is another thing that does nit fir existing structures.
If you lot are SERIOUSLY telling me you can’t tell the diference between this:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsjthMGWCko
and this:
youtu.be/5C2JYcjlIRc
Well, you’re dickheads, aren’t you?
You probably shouldn’t be allowed in the trails yourself if you’re THAT stupid and blind...
Or how about putting your ignorant biases away, growing up a bit, and admitting that - as these videos clearly demonstrate - ebiking IS mountainbiking?
Nothing more, nothing less, and NOTHING TO DO WITH “motorcycling”?
Because if you insist on sticking to your idiotic anti-ebike position after watching these two vids, you’re just demonstrating how broken you really are.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsjthMGWCko
and this:
youtu.be/5C2JYcjlIRc
Well, you’re dickheads, aren’t you?
You probably shouldn’t be allowed in the trails yourself if you’re THAT stupid and blind...
Or how about putting your ignorant biases away, growning up a bit, and admitting that - as these videos clearly demonstrates - ebiking IS mountainbiking?
Nothing more, nothing less, and NOTHING TO DO WITH “motorcycling”?
Because if you insist on sticking to your idiotic anti-ebike position after watching these two vids, you’re just demonstrating how broken - and deeply, DEEPLY stupid - you really are.
...and seriously... if it has a motor... it's not a bicycle. Its a moped, or a pedalo, or a motorcycle. Bicycles don't have motors.
You europeans don't have the same culture or vast tracts of public land, so please just stay out of a volatile NA issue, please. As people we don't really mind you ebikers. Except keithreeder, he's a twat.
If it has a throttle, then it is not a mtb and Euro laws require them to registered and have a licence plate.
Stop reading between the lines and ride!