Review: Unno's Dash is Ultra-Exotic, Ultra-Efficient, & Ultra-Expensive

Dec 10, 2018 at 11:47
by Mike Levy  



Like to feel a bit special? Think that an S-Works, Intense, or Alchemy are all a bit pedestrian? I might have something for you... Made in Barcelona, Spain, the 29'' wheeled Unno Dash sports 130mm of travel paired to a 140mm Pike up front, and you're more likely to spot a pile of rocking horse shit at the trailhead than you are to see one of these carbon creations.

Unno is pleased with what they've put together, too, saying: ''The Dash mixes geometry, wheel size, and travel to generate the closest idea to mountain biking perfection we could think of.''

The damn thing better be pretty astounding if they're gonna talk like that, and especially because the frame and Öhlins STX 22 Air shock sell for a not paltry €5,000 right off their website. That's around $5,600 USD (depending on when you're doing the conversion) or a few hundred dollars more than the entire Rocky Mountain Thunderbolt Carbon 70 that I reviewed a few months back.

That sounds crazy when you think about it like that, doesn't it? And I bet the riders who pull the trigger on a Dash frame won't be tossing a bunch of LX or GX kit at it, either. No, I have a feeling she'll be adorned with the fanciest from either the big blue S or the big red S.
Unno Dash

Intended use: trail
Travel: 130mm
Wheel size: 29''
Frame construction: carbon fiber
Head angle: 65.5°
Chainstay length: 430mm
Reach: 455mm
Sizes: medium only
Weight: 28lb 11oz (as pictured w/o pedals)
Price: €5,000 (frame, Öhlins STX 22 Air shock)
More info: www.unno.com




Don't want to have to think about how you'd spec out your own Dash? That's the fun part, but Unno recently decided to offer complete bikes if you don't agree, with the entry point being the €6,350 Elite bike that comes with a Fox Float 34 Performance fork, a set of e13 wheels, and a SRAM GX Eagle drivetrain. For €8,650, you can get the 'Factory' bike that's pretty close to what's pictured here.

I've always tried to stay away from telling you whether a product is worth the money, just so long as it's not horrible, with my tactic being to simply explain how it performs and then let you decide if you want to do the spending. Sure, $100 is $100, but it's also not the same thing to all of us. Who remembers getting their first paycheck and feeling loaded? Now I spend more than that on dog food and energy drinks every time I go to the grocery store. Also, get off my lawn.


Unno Bikes
Cerro Unno
Sure, all carbon frames are handmade, but Unno doesn't just do their own layup. They also cut their own carbon sheets, and they've manufactured their own molds. That's in the house in-house.


What I'm getting at is that I'm not going to justify the price of the Dash - I think it'd be silly to try and do that when we all know that we could go just fast and have just as much fun on other, less-expensive machines. If you have the coin and want one, more power to you.

The fact that Unno is only making fifty of these things certainly puts owners into an upper-crust club, too, which could be a selling point to some people.



bigquotesGeometry is more important than your feelings and opinions about suspension and wheel size, and it's also why the Unno can be a rocketship everywhere but on the fastest, scariest terrain. Mike Levy




Construction and Features

Unno has been around for a while, but they're a relatively low-volume, high-cost outfit that's probably less well-known than the usual suspects. The DNA is there, though, with Cesar Rojo, the main man behind Unno (and Cero, his design studio) having a long history of racing World Cups, winning a Master's World Championship, and now focusing mostly on contract work for other brands who would rather no one know about it. There's even some development work with KTM and other Superbike teams, too.

On top of that, Rojo is also the guy who penned Mondraker's long reach, short stem 'Forward Geometry' concept that's now widely used by countless other companies, as well as the Spanish brand's insanely efficient dual-link Zero Suspension layout.


Unno Dash review
Just gorgeous, and the details are nice, too. See that rubber grommet at the cable entry point? It's held in place via an interference fit rather than with a screw, and it's shaped to direct the line away from the frame to minimize rubbing.


So yeah, Unno has some clout, regardless of their size or how long they've been around. They've created a stunner of a bike, too, and no matter how this thing performs, I'll readily admit that it might be the first bike that I'd consider having a non-platonic relationship with.

Unno's frames are manufactured in-house with T1000 woven-cloth carbon, but Rojo goes even deeper into its production than that - they also own a carbon-cutting machine and manufactured their own molds. That's right, Unno makes their own molds using their own CNC machines at their Barcelona HQ. Rojo even built their own destruction and CEN testing machines, too, and word is that all of the sample frames exceeded the CEN safety standards by over 50-percent. It's all as in the house as in-house gets, really. Of course, every carbon frame can carry that 'handmade' tag, but surely there's a bit more care taken when you're building your own, in your own factory, and with your own hands, right?


Unno Dash review
Unno Dash review
The vertically thin but wide toptube gives the Dash an airy, lightweight appearance, even if it's not exactly feathery.


PB's Paul Aston stopped by Unno's headquarters back in 2016, and Rojo stressed to him that one of the most important factors in the carbon lay-up process is the mix of comfort versus strength. Rojo suggested that most carbon frames are too stiff in the wrong directions because manufacturers don't have the know-how or even the time to experiment with different layups and structures.

Right, onto the details, and let's start with a small one: Rubber grommets at each cable entry and exit point is par for the course, but Unno's are shaped to push the line away from the frame while at the same time being nearly invisible. Instead of being held in place with a screw, they have little tabs on their backsides that slot into tiny holes. Internal guides mean that you can just push a new line through without having a conniption fit, but that's not true when it comes to the dropper post routing - it's a real pain to push it up from the bottom bracket shell, I discovered. There's a rubber seal integrated into the top of the seat mast, too.


Unno Dash review
Unno Dash review
Co-pivots save weight (left), and the rear brake mount is tucked up between the chainstay and seatstay (right).


The headtube is a mere 85mm tall, which you may or may not be into, and the top tube drops down and out of the way to the 455mm long seat tube that allows for 200mm of possible insertion. Given the bike has 130mm of travel, I might have excused Unno for not adding a set of ISCG tabs, but they wisely chose to include them around the threaded bottom bracket shell.

The post-mount for the rear brake is tucked up inside the rear triangle, which Unno claims to make it stiffer and less prone to vibration... Who out there has such issues? It sure does look clean, but you'll need to bolt on an adapter if you want to go bigger than 160mm, anyway. I have to say that the bike's aluminum hardware is very nice as well, especially the butted 12 x 148mm thru-axle that threads into a flush-mount nut on the other side that doubles as the derailleur hanger.

If you have an Unno, you can also say that your balls have had a magnetite treatment as there are high-end Max bearings from Enduro Bearings at every pivot location. Then you can tell them that it's for improved hardness and rust resistance.


Unno Dash review
An aluminum clevis drives the Ohlins shock, and it shares pivot hardware with the seatstays.

Unno Dash review
Unno Dash review
The included chainstay pad is a dual-density, carbon fiber thing that clips on and is nearly invisible, and there's also a small pad on the vertical element as well.




Geometry & Sizing

Unno has a single, medium-esque frame size in their catalog right now that sports a 455mm reach number. I've both ridden large-sized and medium-sized bikes that were around that long, give or take a few millimeters, so definitely pay attention to the Dash's geo if you're thinking of picking one up.

The Dash's 65.5-degree head angle is on the slack side given its 130mm of travel out back. Consider this; Canyon's 130mm travel, 29'' wheeled 2019 Neuron just got released and it has a 67.5-degree front end. Another example is Devinci's all-new Troy that has big wheels, 140mm out back and 160mm up front, but a head angle that's still half a degree steeper in the most relaxed setting (although it is slacker on the LTD models). In this regard, the Dash is still forward-thinking.


Unno Dash


Another number that stands out is the 85mm tall headtube that makes for low 590mm stack height. A number like that can make it easier to keep weight on the front wheel while cornering, and it'll also aid in keeping the front wheel on the deck when you're going up something steep. The downside, at least for some riders, is that the handlebar is going to feel low-ish unless you go to town with the headset spacers or a riser bar.

There's 36mm of bottom bracket drop, and a 430mm rear-end that adds up to a compact 1,180mm wheelbase.



Unno Dash review
The Dash's 130mm of travel is controlled by a dual-link system and Ohlins' STX 22 shock.


Suspension Design

All of Unno's full-suspension bikes use a dual-link layout with short aluminum rockers that rotate in the same direction (unlike a VPP system that employs counter-rotating links), and that's exactly what you're looking at on the back of the 130mm-travel Dash. To save weight, the upper link shares a co-pivot with an aluminum clevis that in turn drives the Öhlins STX 22 shock, and there are precisely zero options when it comes to extra shock mounting holes, flip-chips, or any other geometry trickery. Just the way it should be, really.

With 130mm of travel, it's no surprise to see that Rojo has tailored the ratio to best suit air-sprung shocks and tuning via volume spacers; their inherent ramp-up should play nicely with the ending ratio. But that also means that the Dash isn't your rig if you're a coil-or-nothing kind of rider, as it's only compatible with air shocks.

Unno gave the Dash roundabouts the average amount of anti-squat for this type of machine, with 96-percent when using a 32-tooth chainring and 82-percent when using a 36-tooth ring. At over 100-percent, the drivetrain forces want to extend the shock, while less than 100-percent is said to allow for better traction because the suspension isn't impeded by the drivetrain. Either way, I suspected that the Dash would feel sporty, and it certainly does. More on that farther down, though.
Unno Dash review
Two short links determine the Dash's wheel path and suspension feel.


Unno Dash



Specifications

The specs listed below show Unno's top-end 'Factory' build that goes for €8,650, or around $9,700 USD. That's a ton of money no matter how you slice it, but it's actually not insane relative to other exotic complete builds like those from Orbea, Trek, and the others who offer halo-level machines. So if you're okay spending that kind of money on a bicycle, there are plenty of different models to pick from.

My test bike's spec is different from the Factory version, however, because I received it prior to Unno offering completes. That explains the 140mm Pike (w/ 51mm of offset) up front instead of the 34, and the (awesome) 170mm OneUp dropper that I installed instead of the 100mm Reverb that was on the bike when it showed up. Stock Factory builds come with Fox's 150mm Transfer dropper.


Specifications
Release Date 2018
Price $5600
Rear Shock Öhlins STX 22 Air Custom Series
Fork FOX FLOAT 34 FACTORY 29", TAPERED STEERER, 140MM TRAVEL
Headset CANE CREEK 40 SERIES
Cassette SRAM X01 EAGLE
Crankarms SRAM XX1 EAGLE
Rear Derailleur SRAM XX1 EAGLE
Chain SRAM X01 EAGLE
Shifter Pods SRAM XX1 EAGLE
Handlebar RENTHAL FATBAR LITE CARBON
Stem RENTHAL APEX 40MM
Grips LIZARD SKINS SINGLE-SIDED
Brakes SRAM GUIDE RSC
Wheelset ENVE M635 29" WHEEL SET
Tires MAXXIS MINION DHR II 29" 2.40, EXO/TR
Seat SELLE ITALIA SLR LITE TITANIUM
Seatpost FOX TRANSFER PERFORMANCE 150MM

Unno Dash










Test Bike Setup

I've had the Dash in rotation since early in the summer, and it's seen a few component changes during that time to better suit my riding style and terrain, as well as to test other gear. Coming from a part of Spain where the local trails have more in common with coral-lined singletrack than anything resembling loam, it makes sense that it showed up with a set of Maxxis DHR II tires sporting full-on downhill casings. I spent a bit of time on these 1,300-gram tractor tires before swapping them out for a set of 900-ish-gram Goodyears, a move that obviously woke the bike up quite a bit.

As already mentioned, I also ditched the 100mm-travel Reverb for a 170mm party post from OneUp (review soon) for maximum fun.The biggest change - and the one that you might be most interested in - is the swap from the 140mm RockShox Pike to the wild-looking Trust linkage fork that delivers 130mm of unique suspension travel.
2018 Pinkbike Field Test
Mike Levy
Location: Squamish, BC, Canada
Age: 38
Height: 5'10
Inseam: 33.5"
Weight: 158lbs
Industry affiliations / sponsors: None
Instagram: @killed_by_death

Now, before you point out that swapping a test bike's fork isn't ideal for testing, I did spend more than four months on the Dash with the Pike up front before making the change, and that's where my riding impressions are coming from. The Unno has also been a great rolling test bed for other parts, and Trust's fork makes a lot of sense on the front of it... and I just couldn't resist dropping in a few photos of the bike with The Message bolted to the front of it.


If you lean more towards the efficient, sporty side of things when it comes to climbing, you'll get on well with the Dash.

Climbing

The Dash's 130mm of travel and low stack height should put it somewhere nearer to the fleet-footed trail bike side of the fence, and its efficient rear-suspension certainly jives with that appraisal. Even the silly 1,300-gram tires that came on the bike from Unno couldn't hide its lively personality, although they did their best to do exactly that. The hefty rotational weight made it feel a bit like driving a quick car without releasing the e-brake in that you can tell it wants to go, even when it's being held back.

Slipping on some lighter weight rubber made the bike instantly feel quicker everywhere that required any real horsepower outputs, and that only helped to raise the fun factor. I know that sportier faster, rolling rubber making for a faster bike isn't exactly news, but it just wouldn't have been fair to judge the Dash with those DH tires on it.

While the two bikes couldn't be more different in a lot of other ways, the Dash's peppy ride reminded me a lot of how Ibis' 120mm-travel Ripley performs on power, which is praise of the highest order if we're talking about efficiency. And much like the Ripley, the Dash isn't the most forgiving in low-traction situations; yes, even with a low-psi DHR II out back. Speed trumps comfort with the Unno, though, and that's underlined by the Öhlins air shock that's not exactly plush and active - square-edged steps feel exactly like square-edged steps.

It's a bit of a mixed bag when it comes to handling on the ascents, with the Dash not coming across as all that easy to live with when the climb is super tight and twisty. It's not unliveable, but there were many times when I had an easier go of it on longer travel bikes, likely due to their steeper head angles and low-offset forks. That said, it was only in those 'everyone is walking anyway' moments that I felt held back, which makes up a grand total of maybe a few minutes of the odd ride.

The low front-end helps to keep the tire on the deck when you're grinding it out up a wall, but the slack head angle means that the Dash isn't ever going to be as easy to live with when the climb turns into a real clusterf*ck of roots, rocks, and tight switchbacks; it's steering is just too relaxed.
The on-power feel is great, but the slack front-end means that you best plan ahead when the climb gets tricky.

In those types of situations, the Unno feels more like a full-on enduro sled than a pointy trail bike, and it's up to you to decide how much you care about that fact.

In a lot of settings, the peppy rear-end and big wheels had me feeling like I always had more gas in the tank, and that's the upside to the Dash's climbing manners. Just don't expect technical climbing performance that approaches a lot of other 130mm-travel bikes, simply because Unno puts more of an emphasis on descending than they do for ascending. I suspect that's just fine to a lot of us, too.


The face doesn't lie: This is an incredibly entertaining bike to ride that'll make even the most straightlaced of riders crack a grin.


Descending

How should a 130mm bike with a 65.5-degree head angle feel on the descents? The short-travel, slack front-end recipe is one that we've seen before, and it usually bakes up a rolling party of a bike that might not be the quickest or the most stable on rowdy descents, but is often the biggest hoot to ride. That's mostly true of the Dash, too, but it also has a pinch of extra fearlessness added for good measure.

This will be a fast bike in the right hands, which is especially true if said rider fancies themselves as being someone who seeks out the tiniest of landings and sneakiest of lines. With the ability to find speed anywhere, a compact wheelbase, and suspension that knows its job entails more than just absorbing bumps, the Dash is for the rider who approaches singletrack in an inch-perfect way. They're going to look for roots to use as lips or transitions to help carry a smidge more speed, but also that riding is almost always about more than just all-out speed. He or she might also love the kind of terrain that rewards technical skill over full-beans bravado, and they're certainly the type to have their shit together.

When it is time for that full-beans bravado on a fast, rough trail, the Dash's angles are ready for more than its suspension ever will be, and I mean that in the best possible way. Geometry is more important than your feelings and opinions about suspension and wheel size, and it's also why the Unno can be a rocketship everywhere but on the fastest, scariest terrain. The rooty, rocky, and often steep-as-a-wall trails here in Squamish felt especially well-matched to the Dash's ability to pop up and over things that would otherwise slow you down while at the same time making short work of the chutes. It's compact enough to snake through tight and awkward (in the best way) corners with ease, too.

It is exactly that sort of mid-speed technical ground where the Dash really thrives.


The Dash is most at home on the kind of mid-speed technical ground where a skilled rider can make 130mm go faster than something with more cush.


It's an easy-to-live-with bike in the corners, too, with the 455mm reach, 36mm of bottom bracket drop, and 65.5-degree head angle feeling just right for my average-ish 5'10'' height and preference for relatively short cockpits. Yes, it doesn't have the surefootedness of a longer bike when speeds are super high or traction is super low, but it's only at those extremes where the difference might come into play for most of us. In the very large majority of situations, I found the Dash to be stable, easy to place, and willing to do whatever I asked of it.

The bike's rear suspension, along with that Öhlins STX shock, has a unique feel to it that some will be a fan of and some won't. First, the good stuff. I've already told you about two hundred times that it's ultra-efficient, but that really does help the Dash's cause on smooth-ish ground or anytime some extra speed is required. If there's a spare second to get a pedal stroke in or pump a nearly non-existent transition, you're more likely to do it on the Dash than any other bike I've ridden. If you want it to, this Spanish creation will find a way to eke out some extra speed at those times.


Could you spend all day on this kind of singletrack? Do you know that geo and handling (usually) trump having more travel? Then you might love the Dash.


130mm isn't a ton of travel, but Unno has done well to get the most out of what the Dash has while clearly catering towards the more aggressive set. It's two different stories at the opposite ends of the bike's suspension; the top of the stroke just doesn't come across as plush and active relative to the amount of travel, which isn't necessarily a terrible thing, but it is important to note. The downsides include a touch of harshness passed through to the rider from the small, high-speed impacts. On the other hand, hitting the end of the travel was more of a "Did I even land yet?" kinda thing than a clanging, smashing incident that'd leave me with sore ankles. The ramp-up seems ideal to me, and there's plenty of mid-stroke support that helps the Dash to get a move on, too.

That bottom-out resistance comes in handy when you're making full use of the Dash's 65.5-degree head angle. So while I've really harped on and on about how much fun it is to ride the Dash at 70-percent, it has the angles and the rear-suspension for your death-gripping and hucks, too.


Rocky Mountain Thunderbolt review
If you want to do a bit of enduro racing on your trail bike, Yeti's SB130 (left) will be more capable at high speeds than the Dash. Rocky Mountain's Thunderbolt (right) has better technical climbing manners, but the Dash leaves it behind on the descents.


How Does it Compare?

The comparison that immediately comes to mind has to be Yeti's just-released SB130. With 29" wheels, 130mm out back, and a 65.5-degree front-end (albeit with a 150mm fork), the new Yeti is very relevant. We have a medium-sized SB130 in for testing and the two bikes are both close in terms of on-power feel - they're as crisp and as quick feeling as you'd ever hope a 130mm bike to be. The Yeti's longer wheelbase makes it feel more stable and ''locked in'' when you're at your limit, but I'd say the Dash is easier to toss around. Racing enduro on your trail bike? Pick the Yeti. Just want a fun, playful bike? The Dash wins in my book.

The other one is Rocky Mountain's Thunderbolt. Yes, I realize that it's rolling on 27.5'' wheels while the Dash is on 29s, but the Rocky is in that same 'fun but not made for a specific use' category as the Unno. The Dash is a more efficient pedaller, though, and its rear suspension is quite different. Not surprisingly, the Thunderbolt would be my choice if technical climbs came before all my descents, but I'd reach for the Unno if I didn't count my dabs during a ride.



Unno Dash review
There's not much room left for upgrading, but what would you change?


Technical Report

Those ENVE Wheels: If you're dropping this kind of money on a frame, I suspect that you're the kind of person who might not shy away from a set of pricey carbon wheels. Personally, I think they're a bit silly but I also have to admit that they gave me zero issues. And boy, they sure do look nice on the Dash. I think I spend ENVE-ish amounts of money each year on candy, so I can't judge anyway. Also, the new rim shape provides a much nicer and more forgiving ride than the old design did.

Renthal's Twisting Apex 40mm Stem: This little guy is great looking but I had zero luck with getting it to stay straight on the Pike's steerer tube. I could hold the front wheel between my legs and twist the stem on the steerer without too much effort, and with the clamp bolts torqued down correctly. Even more worrying, it would creep out of alignment during a ride. Some anti-slip paste might have done the trick, but I certainly shouldn't ever have to resort to that to keep my stem straight. It's also not the only Apex stem that we've seen rotate all the time, which is unacceptable.

Öhlins STX 22 Air Shock: These things are a bit of an acquired taste and I'm not sure that I'll ever be a big fan of the heavily-damped feel that they offer. Even with relatively open settings, the little Öhlins shock felt kinda dead to me, which is at odds with the bike's personality. But while the action didn't come across as being the most active around, the rate is spot on - the Dash's rear-end always seemed to use the exact amount of travel that I'd expect it to. No smashy moments here.


I spent many months riding the Dash with the stock 140mm-travel Pike up front, but I also couldn't resist bolting on the 130mm Trust fork. I'll have a full review of The Message down the road.


Pros

+ Very efficent under power
+ Full of beans and fun to rip
+ It's a rare, expensive head turner
Cons

- Rear suspension isn't overly forgiving, even for 130mm
- Relatively slack front-end can make the bike a handful on tight climbs
- It's a rare, expensive head turner


Is this the bike for you?

If I'm honest about how I like to ride, the Dash is reasonably close to the ideal bike for a guy like me. Are you like me? In most ways, you should hope not, but if you're into bikes that put fun first, bikes with big wheels, and bikes that don't have an ultra-deep and forgiving suspension feel, you might be a fan of this Unno. Call me weird, but I don't want a bike that erases every single root and rock, and I don't want a bike that's stuck to the ground like a cinder block on wheels; the Dash is the antithesis of those things.

If you're an accurate rider who enjoys pushing their limits on a short-travel bike, the Dash is going to make sense. But if you just want the most forgiving mid-travel bike around, or one that crushes technical climbs, you'll probably want to look elsewhere.



Pinkbike's Take
bigquotesBased on its performance and its performance alone, the Dash is one hell of an interesting rig that offers a unique take on what makes a good trail bike. Unno says that it's ''the closest idea to mountain biking perfection we could think of,'' and while it is a very fun bike to ride, I suspect that it's only going to be perfect for a rather small group of riders. Yes, a lot of us will have fun on it, but it's best suited to someone who knows exactly what they're doing out there rather than a messy pinner who takes chances; a rider who knows how much fun it can be to ride a short-travel bike quickly will really enjoy the Dash. Mike Levy








317 Comments

  • + 206
 The complete prices are pretty damn good if you take into account the price of the frame itself. Cheaper than an SWORKS stumpy for example, cheaper than most high-end builds from like SC, Yeti, Pivot and the rest. I think this kinda illuminates how much air there is in the pricing of other high-end bikes, considering Unno's frames are handmade in-house. Gorgeous bike too.
  • + 16
 I dunno, but maybe there is a lot of air in the price of the unno frame.
  • + 33
 Was meant to say the same. If this is Ultra expensive then what are Yetis, 9.9s and SWorkses? Mega expensive plus... also how being rare is a con? Is this bike for you? No! Seat tube is not vertical and the chainstay is 1 foot too short!
  • + 9
 This, don't get it why PB write it is the most expensive rig. When you compare it to the expensive brand's they all are bad Vs Uno.
  • + 8
 Yes I noticed that too. The X01 V10 costs about the same as the X01 EVER. I know what I would choose.
  • - 5
flag wibblywobbly (Jan 7, 2019 at 4:33) (Below Threshold)
 That's so that if you are bro's with the shop (IE anyone and everyone but you) the shop will knock a significant amount off the price. There is no bro deal on the Unno. If you are one of the suckers that shops try to milk every last penny out of you should just buy the Unno.
  • + 6
 @wibblywobbly: yeah but I would rather take a lower spec bike where the only difference is weight and have the best customer service out there. When they only make 50 of each bike every they should have 10/10 customer service.
  • - 11
flag chyu (Jan 7, 2019 at 5:43) (Below Threshold)
 With that price, they better sign Gwin to race DH with it.
  • + 9
 We'll said! This bike is hand made with attention to small details starting from the woven carbon to the dual pivot design and comes with the custom shock , and was designed by the genius who has pretty much re-invented the modern mtb, all this makes it definitely worth the price if you can afford it. This is not that expensive for what it is, people just don't have an appreciation for good craftsmanship anymore.
  • - 1
 ...and sexi... and it is not expensive at all...
  • + 1
 Maybe its just the frame price?
  • - 7
flag m1dg3t (Jan 7, 2019 at 7:14) (Below Threshold)
 @Ricardino: Not expensive for what it is? It's a bicycle. I can buy a BMW for that price.
  • + 7
 Take a quick look at the road bike scene. It's not uncommon for frame set prices to exceed even this price point. And you're talking about a ROAD bike... so...
  • + 4
 Don't forget, this is a European bike. It's bound to cost a lot more in the US, just as US bikes here cost way more. A Yeti frame here costs 4000 euro, so that Unno for 5000 euro isn't much more expensive. But the Yeti SB130 frame costs $3500 and compared to $5600 that's a lot more.
  • + 15
 Unno's sales volume is closer to a big bicycle store than to a bicycle company. Unno probably pays (way) more for the components than companies like SC, Spesh and other. The factory build price is very good
  • + 5
 @WAKIdesigns: absolutely, for this amount of money you can have this or generic Bronson with cost cutting in componentry everywhere, hm I wonder what is better value...
  • + 7
 Pretty embarrassing to spec this rare head turning bike with guide brakes.
  • + 2
 @m1dg3t: ya a pretty shitty one!
  • + 6
 @Mondbiker: Although the support you'll receive after the fact will never match a SC or Spesh level. With no dealer network and likely not many spares close by (or in existence) you could be in for alot of downtime if something breaks.

I gave up on boutique brands long ago for this reason. I wanna ride my bike.
  • + 2
 @partswhore: learned my lesson years ago with BMX bikes. Always best to stay with big guys.
  • + 3
 @partswhore: a lot of big players with questionable customer support out there, just like plenty of smaller brands out there with textbook service... Without trying it out you will never know, but sending simple email and seeing how long it takes to get the answer is a good start.
  • + 5
 This bike company was named pretty well. Pretty easy to yell "Unno!" when you only have a single dollar bill left after buying one.
  • + 2
 @raddog: Exactly, bike like this just asks to be pimped out to max level in every area. Imagine some Trickstuff brakes on it. Now I can sleep.
  • - 6
flag bohns1 (Jan 7, 2019 at 12:52) (Below Threshold)
 @A-HIGHLY-EDUCATED-PROFESSIONAL: I guess if you got a meager salary then Ya!
  • + 1
 @shaked: actually they are making a point. Its like yt complete bike is the same as non direct frame only. Now this is complete bike same as non direct complete bike. Who's making lots of cash with others products.
Feels like when tou take your car to mechanic: labor cost and spare part cost. Here in spain they make profit with the spare without telling you.
  • + 1
 @partswhore: i suspect these people wont let you down.
  • - 9
flag myfriendgoose (Jan 7, 2019 at 20:30) (Below Threshold)
 I legit feel embarrassed for anyone who'd buy one of these. Seems like such a pose. It's bad enough there are fools out here on $10,000 bikes who can't ride for shit. Pile this thing once on a rock and then what? Dipshit bike.
  • + 9
 @myfriendgoose: i feel legit sad for you Wink
  • + 1
 @zonoskar: not really, european prices include vat while US don't. I don't know how big/small us import taxes are but in the end it shouldn't cost that much more in the states. And yes the frame only is quite expensive but builds are more than fairly priced.
  • + 4
 For PinkBike a SC Bronson for the same money is a good deal but this bike is Ultra-expensive. Why in those bike review in the cons never said nothing about price tag?
  • + 2
 @vid1998: I was not talking about absolute prices, but relative. 4000 (Yeti in EU) vs 5000 (Unno in EU) is much closer than 3500 (Yeti in US) vs 5600 (Unno in US). Buying locally is less expensive than importing stuff.
  • + 1
 @zonoskar: You're right but I'm saying that the price in the US isn't 5600 but less (due to not having taxes) so the US price is around 4750$ + import fees (if they exist). So it's an absolute price.
  • + 0
 @plume: road bikes...? Who needs em? Spindly little frames, on sketchy narrow rimmed wheels, with spokes made from twisted butterfly silk, which then get mated to bald tires. These machines then get ridden by overly caffeinated individuals dressing in brightly colored spandex whilst playing in traffic.
  • + 1
 @myfriendgoose: Sounds like ur clearly not their demographic! I know a guy who bought an 8k bike and sucked! No what? He grew Into the bike.. Became a decent rider in one season and an exceptional one after two... He also didn't have to upgrade his bike to fit his skill set..
  • + 54
 Remember when 66° on a 160mm travel rig was considered enduro af
  • + 34
 It is WAY too much bike for you.

Mike Levy
Tech editor
Height: 5' 10''
Inseam: 33.5''

Ideal Geometry
Wheel size: 29''
Travel: 120mm rear / 120mm front
Head angle: 66.5°
Seat tube angle (effective): 77°
Chainstay length: 430mm
Reach: 460mm
Fork offset: 44mm
  • + 12
 Leave him alone, it's not his fault. They just need to have at least one guy from each segment they target (hard xc, am, trail, enduro, park, ebike), so readers have someone to identify with. Probably they had a draw one day and he just got a shorter match Wink
  • + 22
 @in2falling don’t be silly, as we read in Down Country Gospel, The Book of Seathoop

“Here I tell thee, most are overbiked, few are overforked”
  • + 12
 @WAKIdesigns: Just stop with that new age hippy shit. I believe in the Old Testiment of Downhill and Freeride. Infidel.
  • + 10
 @Boardlife69: Michael 12:3 “Blessed are thee who found joy and pride in chicken lines”
  • + 7
 @WAKIdesigns: Bender 66:6 "To reach the heavens Thou shalt man up and send it"
  • + 25
 If I read the review right, it says the bike is good but not that great. Amount of travel and shock prevent it from being dh oriented sled that geometry leads you to believe.
But the climbing is not that great either as the DH Geo doesn't play well with climbing (who would have thought!).

Because of that and weight, it's not that great for flats and undulating terrain where lighter and more poppy bikes dominate - Giant Trance for instance.

This looks a lot like more aggressive version of Giant Trance to me, with all the benefits and drawbacks of such bike.
  • - 11
flag mtbikeaddict (Jan 7, 2019 at 1:42) (Below Threshold)
 And the Trance looks like the Process 111...
  • - 1
 @mtbikeaddict: meastro and four bar horst link are very different.
  • + 10
 @mhoshal: as are horst links and single pivots.
  • + 4
 If the bike feels too planted then ride faster and ramp everything.
  • + 2
 I wasn't talking about the way the suspension linkage looks... That's stupid. I'm talking, as was @msusic, about this category of bike... The way it behaves. Short travel 29er that is a blast to ride, with geo to make you want DH, but not the travel to absorb it. Cmon. The Trance is only 4mm different from the 111 in rear suspension. Might as well call it the Process 115. Wink Leave it to PB comments to jump on a guy for a stupid irrelevant straw man.
  • + 2
 My impression of this review was, “yep, it’s a pretty good, solid bike.” But nothing over the top. They have given more raves to less expensive, less exotic bikes for sure.
  • + 0
 @browntown40: not really other then one pivot being moved from the chain stay to the seat stay still a four bar linkage. And my bad I thought kona was horst I didn't realise it was as shitty a set up as a giant yukon fx my bad. Yet another reason I would never buy Kona.
  • + 14
 If you're not within the EU you won't be subject to value added tax. So that 5000 euro frame will be 4257 euro. Converted to USD that's $4870, still a lot.

Do the same with their factory build and you're looking at 7524 EU without VAT or $8,180 USD, very comparable if not cheaper than other carbon wheeled builds from Santa Cruz, Yeti, and others.

It all comes down to how your country treats imports from Spain and the EU. It may not work out for the Canadians but it looks like a very competitive option for the U.S.
  • + 6
 Yeah. This is a very expensive bike, but not particularly more expensive than XX1 Carbon Wheel builds from other manufacturers. An XX1 Reserve Hightower is $9,299. A SB 130 XX1 is $9,199, with aluminum wheels.
  • + 0
 I'll ask my dentist how he like his the next time I go in for cleaning
  • + 12
 Beautiful bike, but surprisingly heavy! DHR II's front and rear not helping!

One editorial note: I think you should put the $9700 figure (not $5600) in the Specs table, since it gives specs for the complete bike, not frame-only.
  • - 4
flag WAKIdesigns (Jan 7, 2019 at 3:30) (Below Threshold)
 If you don’t put Minion caliber tyres on a bike like this, preferably with DD casing, at least on the back, you are in the wrong sport...
  • - 6
flag duzzi (Jan 7, 2019 at 8:18) (Below Threshold)
 It is kind of ridiculous to spend $9700 for 28 plus bike. My IBIS HD3 is 24.3 to 25 pounds depending on wheels and tires and costs less than that including two wheel sets!
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: "on a bike like this"

I have no problem with Minions (I run DHF/Aggressor myself), but it's a 130/140 trail bike, FFS! The 2.4 DHR II is particularly heavy, even in the spec'd EXO; DD would be ridiculous on a bike like this.
  • + 10
 @duzzi: No one cares about overall weight other than XC junkies who don´t ride fast enough to damage thin tires at 20psi.
  • + 2
 @MtbSince84: I personally cannot agree. You also look at the weight of DHR2, while it's biggest issue for a bike like this is the rolling resistance. I'd opt for DHF front and SS rear. The rear either in DD or Exo with Procore. It is not hard to go fast enough on a bike like this to not only utilize the grip of knobby tyres but also reach the limit of sidewall stability of a casing like Exo/Snake Skin. This bike is more as aggro if not more aggro than Stumpy 29 which i know well. You could theoretically go Aggressor/SE4 for rolling but you are still talking weight, since most intermediate tyres are no more than 100g less than 1ply "Dh" tyres. Weight on a bike like this is irrelevant anyways. At least in reality, not sure about parking lot speed lab, or post your bike on scale" forum thread.

Unless you are building a long travel Down country bike then you can run Ikons. But that would be a Joey wagon LT. The biggest setup mistake here is the use of crappy and overpriced Öhlins STX shock. Should have been CCDB or X2
  • + 1
 @duzzi: What tires are on your HD3 to hit that weight?
  • + 9
 @bronco5: none, it lives on the scales with no tyres or pedals. Just glorious sub-25lb wank factor is all the riding he wants.
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns:

"I'd opt for DHF front and SS rear."
Sounds reasonable to me.

"The rear either in DD or Exo with Procore"
Well, this is getting back to an EXO vs. DD discussion that was held in the Field Test articles. I agree that DD is appropriate/required for enduro racing. But I've had excellent performance from EXO, front and rear, for reasonably aggressive trail riding in California, Utah, Arizona and several weeks in BC last year. I see no need to go DD.
  • + 2
 @MtbSince84: As I wrote it was personal. In my personal experience, Exos don’t last under me on their own, and even on my local trails the rear just doesn’t last. I puncture them, they burp and wobble at 28 PSI (I weigh 180lbs). If I went to BC, I’d tear them apart on this bike. Both front and rear. I wouldn’t even dare to push this bike to the borders of the zeone where it belongs with these squirmy things. I use Exo on the front in Gothenburg, byt we have no speeds and thus no forces to expose these tyres to.
  • + 1
 @MtbSince84: exo dont work with rocks here. And sidewalls flex
  • + 0
 @WAKIdesigns: Guess we're going to have to disagree. I weigh similar, and run low-20's psi with no burp or squirm problems. I am running 2.5's on 35 mm internal rims. They don't last super long, but it's the cornering knobs that go first, not the sidewalls.

I still think I am in the right sport, sport. :-)
  • + 1
 @MtbSince84: For the way I (and many others) ride and race my mid travel bike, and where I ride, DD's are mandatory on both ends... well Super Gravity in my case since I run Magic Mary's.
  • + 5
 I have a new Industry Standard I'd like to launch here, today.
All manufacturers should weigh bikes without tires. Why not? We already post weight without pedals. Why not just take our personal taste for tires out of the factor too!?
  • + 1
 @nuttypoolog: Yes!! I've mentioned this in the past as well. I think review bikes should be sent for review without tires and the reviewer uses the same tires he/she prefers and keeps them the same from bike to bike, removing that part of the equation from the review. Then, at the shop level... you just buy the tires you need/prefer, as you said, just like pedals.

Only downside, it probably would increase your overall spend a little as the manufacturers obviously get preferred pricing for speccing all their bikes with a certain brand... they use some of that for profit, but we still get cheaper tires (vs buying new from a shop) included. But again... on the flipside... if you're like me with my new bike, I ended up spending the money to switch tires anyway and had to sell the included tires on Pinkbike for less than I paid for the new tires and less than those same tires are worth new. No the shop didn't wouldn't do switch for me and didn't want them because they have an overabundance of Maxxis DHF/DHRII in 29" at 2.35" in 3C EXO casings... no one wants them, they're too narrow and too weak to be ridden hard in our terrain. If they were 2.5 and/or 2.4 WT DD casings, yes, not a problem... or even the new EXO+ (anyone seen these yet by the way?) but those are the tires I would want anyway, so...
  • + 1
 @islandforlife: I've got the new EXO+ on my bike and I think they are the future! Much lighter than the DD's and better sidewall support and protection than the EXO's.

I can't last a single ride on the EXO's, DD's have been mandatory for me but I think these are going to last based on the early abuse I've put them through. I'm a 220lb rider with a smash through rocks type of style too.

Only have about 8 rides on them so far but they've seen some abuse on my sharp, rocky, and fast, BC interior trails.
  • + 1
 @Paxx: Great to hear, thanks for the info... do you happen to have the weights handy?? And do you have them in 2.5 and/or 2.4 WT widths?
  • + 1
 @islandforlife: Sorry, can't remember the weights off hand. I think it was around 80g heavier than the EXO version.

I'm running the 2.4WT DHR2 f/r
  • + 1
 @islandforlife: where is this shop with the stack of 3c they want to get rid of!? I'll take them!
  • + 12
 @mikelevy if you spend ENVEish amount of money for candies, you probably also give ENVEish amount of money to your dentist ? Does he ride a Unno ?
  • - 10
flag Bflutz625 (Jan 7, 2019 at 4:02) (Below Threshold)
 If you own this you are a dentist.
  • - 2
 @Bflutz625: not a dentist, but I will stick my tool in your mouth! :-)
  • + 7
 We get it, there are many daft people with either too much money to spare or like getting in debt because .. you know .. YOLO, ..... but whats the point on reviewing this when this is is a phrase that uttered ..

" ... It's a rare, expensive head turner"

.. anyway, besides that, its become almost impossible to make sense of these review and they seems to contradict from one to another, plus, I think I need a maths degree to read them now, I mean its all bloody numbers numbers numbers, as well as that big one, yes, I mean price ... anyway, TBH i only come to PB for the comments, and even those are boring and predictable now
  • + 2
 Sometimes its cool to just look at pretty bikes, geez
  • + 1
 Why do we read car reviews for the latest Lambos and such? Because we want to know what it's like to ride in those that we will never ride in. It's fun, and heck maybe one day it'll be "consumer advice"
  • + 6
 PB: any feedback from Renthal as why their stems seem to twist on the steerer tube?. Has PB had any similar experience with Apex stems of other lengths?

I ask as i thought i was dreaming that my bars were slightly out of perpendicular with my wheel. But riding hands-off, one could clearly see the bars were off-perpendicular, this after I had set it (measured it bar tip to axle to confirm).
  • + 1
 I think the problem is that Renthal has both bolts on the same side of the stem instead of using a pinch style design with one bolt on each side. I've seen several Renthal stems broken because people had to torque them well beyond spec to get them to stay put...
  • + 6
 @Trailsoup: not sure about that, my X4 has two bolts on the same side and never slipped, except for heavy crashes.
  • + 1
 @Trailsoup: Perhaps. I just realized I haven't checked the bolts for torque after a few heavy rides, to see if there's some relaxing going on. I doubt it's the material, otherwise the bar could have as well. then again, the bars have a very rough texture where the stem clamps onto it.

Coating on the steerer? it's quite slippy to the touch. (RS Lyrik btw)
  • + 2
 @Trailsoup: Chromag's BZA stem has the same bolt layout, not had or heard of any problems with that rotating though. Not sure how Renthal didn't notice this issue when they tested it...
  • + 6
 Renthal handlebars have proven to be some of the weakest in actual testing. Now their stems have issues. If it wasn't for their cool moto bro image no one would be riding their ugly tan shit.
  • + 2
 Mine has never moved, including a heavy crash at a DH park last year. Fox 36 fork, though hopefully that doesn't matter.
  • + 5
 @WestwardHo: Links to the tests?
  • + 3
 Always thought having the stem and steerer keyed makes a lot sense?
  • + 4
 @WestwardHo: they are more comfortable than other bars, that's why people like them.
  • + 2
 He's full of it. I changed over to a pair of Fatbar Lite's, last week, and they felt good straight away, and that wasn't the case with my previous Chromag's, which i didn't like for the first few days.
  • + 1
 I cured the same problem on my bike by using a spacer on top of the stem, then the top cap as normal (paste didn't work), bars are now solid. I think the problem is the stem doesn't have quite enough clamping material so doesn't clamp tight against the top of the fork steerer.
  • + 1
 @Beez177: in a world without crashing I would agree.
  • + 1
 @Heywood165: pretty poor though that you’ve had to add material to your build to compensate for the material removed by Renthal, I’ve had one of their stems before, never again
  • + 1
 @sewer-rat: it's fine, the spacer doesn't go above the level of the bar clamps. I think I prefer the look of it. The apex is far better than the duo stem, that thing creaked by the end of every ride.
  • + 1
 @Heywood165: Yeah that's what I had the Duo, bloody awful thing lol . I switched to Steele INdustries for a bit and theirs was awesome, now back on Hope though
  • + 1
 @Beez177: I would spend every ride looking down thinking "I'm not 100% sure this is straight and I can do nothing about it."
  • + 1
 @sewer-rat: I've got Steele industries pedals, excellent quality stuff and (I think) a lifetime warranty. Didn't like the look of the graphics on their bars though.
  • + 1
 @Heywood165: Yeah a bit bright but bloomin nice though, stem was absolutely top notch, just fancied a change back to 31.8 from 35mm
  • + 2
 @sewer-rat: That Invader stem is beautiful! Mint! Adding to the list.
  • + 1
 I have both the renthal apex and syntace megaforce 2 on several bikes. The megaforce has been better about holding things in place (bigger bolts), and not creaking.
  • + 6
 "Call me weird, but I don't want a bike that erases every single root and rock, and I don't want a bike that's stuck to the ground like a cinder block on wheels"
Sounds like you, Mike Levy, need to ride an Orange (Stage, Five,...)
  • + 16
 Or just stop riding with big wheels
  • + 56
 he said he wants something poppy and nimble, not something that sounds like a skeleton wanking in a biscuit tin
  • + 3
 @zede: my exact thoughts mate ! Guy wants something lively and rides 29ers. I am not a big fan of the 29er trend but I can see benefits for the people that like this type of ride. But this is just BS period.
  • + 2
 @zede: boom!
  • + 3
 @Balgaroth: Let's get one thing straight out the gate... 29ers are Not a trend.. A trend signifies something that will eventually come to an end or atleast taper off.. I don't forsee that happening anytime in the foreseeable future.
  • + 1
 @bohns1: mate of course it is ! Once 29er will be well accepted the bike industrie will either come up with bigger or smaller wheels. Since the addition of suspension to our frames nothing has been as good to sell bike and kill the second hand market by making all our bikes irrelevant so you would be a fool to don't think 29er are only a trend to be changed again within few years. Either selling it as "you need moar bigger !!!" Or as " lets introduce 28" for playfull bikes with the rollover of the 29er monstertrucks"
  • + 2
 @Balgaroth: 29ers have given tall people bikes that are in proportion to their bodies. I don't think they're going to go away. I see it as a delayed adjustment to anatomy. 26 was an accidental choice by MTB's creators. A choice that suited those of us at the other end of the height scale. Nothing uglier than an XL 26 frame.
  • + 1
 @BenPea: On this we agree. But if bike maker were honest they would simply adjust wheel size to the bike size, something Liteville does for exemple. Instead of making 29er in XS sizes which makes absolutely no sense, the same way than XL frames with 26er did. But even if 26 wheel suited well small riders they didn't stick did they ? So when bike makers decide to move on, because they will for the sake of novelty) will they keep some 29er XL for rider over 2m ? I'd be very surprised ...
  • + 1
 @Balgaroth: Maybe with wheel size they have tended towards the average height of riders, which has probably grown, based on general population data. Hence 26 going the way of the dodo. For 29 to be superceded by e.g., 32, there would have to be a significant proportion of people over 2m tall, which might happen, but not before the end of this century.
I can't believe so many people would be happy with 29 if there weren't tangible benefits. It's easy to get caught up in conspiracy theories about these things, but all wheels sizes are perfect for someone. The elimination of 26 is just down to limiting the number of different components/production lines/moulds/tube sizes/frame angles so as to minimize manufacturing costs, and also to the fact that the vast majority of people are happy with 650b if 29 feels too big for them. Are people under 1.70 m feeling that 650b is too much bike for them?
A model with 3 different wheel sizes is simply going to be more expensive, which ultimately hurts sales.
  • + 1
 @BenPea: when you see sub 1m70 people riding and praising 29er I doubt 32ers would need to see a wast majority of over 2m riders. Put a few racers to it, have the media to push it, people will buy the hype. When you see many DH racers around 1m80 complaining about ass rub on their 29ers i don't see how smaller people can ride happily with those bikes. Or they never go near steep and technica stuff ? I guess 29er must roll pretty fast on bikeparks smooth motorways.
  • + 1
 @Balgaroth: Good points and you may be right, it wouldn't be the first time marketing has convinced people to act against their own interest or, as you say, perhaps only a small minority of riders ever put themselves in situations where a 29er isn't ideal. We'll have to wait and see whether anyone dares to up the diameter further...
  • + 1
 @Balgaroth: I honestly don't see that happening anytime soon.. It will be 29 and 27.5 for many more years.. Like other comments have stated.. At 6'3 a 29 finally fits me and I feel more in the bike than a circus bear on top with a propeller hat on. They simply just work for us taller folk.. More of the changes I see happening will be geometry.. I believe companies will edge closer and closer to the likes of what pole and mondaker are doing.. Let's sit back and watch it unfold shall we.
  • + 4
 Is this one expensive ?
Isn't it rather carbon bikes made oversea that are super cheap ?

We've lost the true value of things in this global world (what is true value ? Maybe what you would ask for if you had done the job ?), I don't know how much profit Unno does on a frame/bike, but you may be looking at the REAL price of a carbon frame if you'd want your local area bike builder to make a decent living.
  • + 5
 @Will-narayan: Value is what ever the consumer decides. Stupid consumers make stupid choices, and we end up in the situation the world is in now. Overpriced products to drive corporate profit margins.
  • + 6
 @m1dg3t: Sure, but I was talking about labor and energy costs. I mean whatever product won’t cost the same whether it is crafted by your neighbor or some cheap labour oversea.
Oversea products are made available only thanks to the massive amount of energy contained is fossile fuels, making oversea products cheaper than locally made products, despite the transport cost.
China is 9000km away from where I am. If it was not for fossile fuels, it would takes 450 hours at 20km to bring a product to me. Even at 10$ an hour, carrying the product would raise its cost by 4500$. Sure you could pack several products together to bring the cost down, but without fossile fuels you’d rely on a human pedaling or an animal pulling a trailer, so you couldn’t pack much products on it until the dude/beast is exhausted to death.
So without fossile fuels, the product that costs 1000$ to produce locally and only 100$ oversea would cost you 1100$ locally and 4600$ from oversea (the figures are totally fictitious but you get the idea).
Then in the end the way you spend your money affects your area, I mean socially (unemployment rate, crime rate, industrial knowledge, etc).

In that regards, Unno’s products are not expensive.
  • + 2
 I didn't know Spain was local to me. I've gotta retake geography...
  • + 2
 @mtbikeaddict: Ha ! Yeah I guess you get the idea of what I meant by local : Same cost of life/average income.
That same bike made in the US would probably cost about the same price, unless the difference of social welfare & taxes allows for a lower price.
  • + 1
 @Will-narayan: So many compounded "ifs" and an over focus on fossil energy and labour costs. You seem to forget trade existed pre-industrialisation and the key vessels that facilitated such trade, sail boats.

Not to mention the fact that Unno isn't attempting to be a locally made, mass market brand but is deliberately a low-volume, high cost boutique manufacturer. They're not attempting to pump out thousands of frames at maximum efficiency but instead take their sweet time carefully handcrafting a handful of bikes.

Fossil fuels are a major feature of energy systems globally, irrespective of the developed stage of the economy.

What you're really attempting to compare is the cost of producing in low-labour cost economies with that of technologically advanced but high-cost economies. And in that respect, the market has answered that question for you. It is most efficient to put your supply chain in the regions most effective at undertaking the work. That is, design and engineer in the high-cost economy, manufacture in the low cost economy and do what you can to advance the technology of manufacturing.
  • + 1
 @Will-narayan: It's also pretty fallacious to focus on energy costs for one part of the supply chain whilst ignoring it everywhere else. Saying fossil fuels enable transport whilst ignoring that they enable manufacturing in the first place is nonsense analysis.
  • + 3
 @Ktron: Well I disagree. First I wouldn’t be surprised if trade in the past was possible only because of a massive use of slaves, which is the same as local cheap labour (just like Hitler’s highways and rearmament and whatnot was made possible through the use of disposable camp prisoners), but my history sucks so I’m not sure.

« Not to mention the fact that Unno isn't attempting to be a locally made, mass market brand but is deliberately a low-volume, high cost boutique manufacturer. »
This I agree with, but because I think there’s no in-between. You chose to be either a mass market brand and make the production oversea, or keep it local and advertise yourself as a high cost boutique manufacturer.
You can’t be a mass market brand while keeping the production local. Maybe it worked in the 40’s-70’s period (and still, mass production figures back then probably looked nothing like nowaday’s figures) but not anymore, you can’t compete. In the past you’d buy a bike and it probably was an investment. You’d keep it for years, if not decades, and repair it cuz’ buying a new one was too expensive.

« Saying fossil fuels enable transport whilst ignoring that they enable manufacturing in the first place is nonsense analysis. »
But, the use of energy for production is the same whether your factory is local or oversea. The big variable IS the labour cost, and this variable ONLY exists thanks to cheap fuel.
Mass market is only available thanks to fossile fuels virtually bringing the low labour countries at your door step. There’s no magic in the market, money doesn’t exist out of nothing, well yes, that’s how bank do it, buy signing loans with customers, but then the financing of these loans is made through activities and products, which imply the transformation of energy (mostly fossile fuels).
Growth isn’t magic, it firstly is a growth of resources use, and a growth of population (which again mean a growth of resources use).
Without fossile fuels, and even with sail boats, bringing your product to your country is gonna take weeks, or months, and during that time the guy producing locally is gonna be more competitive, he’s gonna take your market share, so you’ll stop producing oversea as well, and you’ll have to find people locally to do the work. But they’ll cost much more than the cheap labour, so even if they work well your product will be much more expensive, and you’ll sell a lot less, so mass production doesn’t exist anymore.

Mass market, mass production, mass whatever you want, billionaires, cheap labour, cheap products, strawberries in the winter, etc. all of this is — not a mirage, cuz’ it exists — but a parenthesis of the last 2 centuries since man discovered the amazing amount of energy contained in coal, oil & gas, but from the beginning « we » acted as if it wasn’t tied to natural resources, as if it’d be there forever, but it may come to an end in the upcoming decades (some say we’ll feel the first effect as soon as 2030, or even 2020) unless we find a new super efficient energy source that doesn’t increases global warming.

And I’ll add that I don’t find this fun at all, I'm not a "green hippie" for the fun of it, but cuz’ the end of dirt cheap energy may be REALLY tough on everyone.
  • + 3
 @Will-narayan: Bollocks, bollocks, bollocks.

You're minimising comparative advantage to labour only and ignoring other benefits of trade such as access to new products. Whilst labour is a major cost component to the production of anything it isn't the only cost, and trade facilitates the availability of products not otherwise available in your region. The rationale to trade stands irrespective of labour costs.

Mass market exists irrespective of trade. Sure, you constrain the size of your market and increase your costs but it still exists within your economy. Again, you're taking one side of the argument without applying it to the other. If you're not allowing trade to enable your access to cheaper foreign labour, you're not competing with it either.

Growth isn't dependent on either increased resource use or population growth. All you need for economic growth is an increase in efficiency. If you produce more with the same amount of resources (eg. less wastage, better technology) you have economic growth.

We already have an energy source which is plenty efficient and produces zero green house gas emissions. Nuclear. Sure, it has its own risks but these are very well understood and capable of being effectively managed/mitigated whilst guaranteeing a large and reliable source of energy until something better comes along. It's certainly far better than pinning all our hopes on "magical" advancements in renewable energy and energy storage within the limited time frames you describe.
  • + 2
 @Ktron: « Bollocks, bollocks, bollocks. »
Well I disagree.

Of course labor is not the only cost, but it’s a major one, or else 90% of what we buy wouldn’t come from cheap labour countries.

« trade facilitates the availability of products not otherwise available in your region »
Sure, you’re not gonna grow bananas in greenland, but what is available locally should preferably be produced locally. Buying apples from 5000km away when you can get some locally is total nonsense.

« Mass market exists irrespective of trade. »
You’re playing on words, or I'm missing a nuance. Of course mass market still exists, you can sell massive amounts of peanuts if you will, but without fossile fuels and cheap labour, mass markets for manufactured goods would probably massively drop to the point where it wouldn’t really be massive anymore. You simply CAN’T sell massive amount of products when the customer’s income/cost of life is the same as yours and your employees. It more or less evens out.

« Growth isn't dependent on either increased resource use or population growth. All you need for economic growth is an increase in efficiency. »
Well, that’s the nice theory, but the reality probably isn’t as nice. Car engine for instance got more efficient overtime, but then we pack more stuff in cars, and we buy more cars, me live further from work, so the efficiency gains are void by the change of use.
Same for planes (more efficient, so travel price drops, so people travel more, so more plane fly, and the efficiency is void), and a lot of things.

« We already have an energy source which is plenty efficient and produces zero green house gas emissions. Nuclear. »
Nuclear will only offset the unavoidable. Look at this page :
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_mix
Total world energy consumption by source in 2013 :
Fossil fuel : 78.4%
Nuclear : 2.6%
Renewable : 19%

And this one :
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_generation
Electricity generation in 2016 :
Fossil fuels : 65.3%
Nuclear fission : 10.4%
Renewable : 24.3%

« It's certainly far better than pinning all our hopes on "magical" advancements in renewable energy and energy storage within the limited time frames you describe. »
According to the number posted above, not so sure. If all countries start to massively use nuclear to compensate a drop of fossile fuels, there quickly won’t be much nuclear materials anymore.
Yup’, that’s scary.
  • + 1
 @Will-narayan: plus one for nuclear and it's comparisons. You already know what I won't go into detail here with. However, modern (not 1970's era) nuclear reactors are extremely efficient and their only daily by product is steam. The ' waste' ie: spent fuel & materials handled effectively will never harm anyone and that is getting better every few years
  • + 1
 @Will-narayan:

Per above, I agree labour costs are a major driver to the location of global manufacturing centres. But again, I emphasise they're not the only consideration which overrides all others.

Another point you're missing is resource allocation, which relates to comparative advantage. Just because product x> is capable of being produced locally doesn't mean it should be produced if those same resources can be used more productively elsewhere, even if it is more expensive to import product x> from somewhere else. Other issues come into it of course (such as risk), but in simple economic terms that is so.

I'm not playing on words, I'm merely responding to your words which in your first posts are so poorly written it took numerous re-reads to get the jist of, let alone understand and respond to your true intention or thinking. I note your writing has remarkably improved in the last couple of posts from the first 2 so thank you for that.

What's your point? That the world is built on fossil fuels and cheaper foreign labour and if you took these things away away everything would be more expensive and the mass market would contract? Well duh. But differences in labour costs and key technology within and across economies has existed throughout human existence and will continue to be so. There has always been cheaper labour and technology fundamental to the productive capacity of an economy and if you alter this at any point in time it would have the same effect.

So what's your drama? The liveable wage? Something else?

The fallacy that economic growth is dependent on ever increasing and unsustainable resource consumption and population growth is common, pervasive and I don't think trivial or theoretical at all. Especially in the context we're talking about here in respect of climate change and global sustainability, which requires some incredibly hard decision making with potentially mammoth consequences. You're certainly right that growth is frequently associated with both of those factors but I think by not including technology/efficiency growth you disregard a very material factor and so play further into that fallacy. Global survival depends on our ability to reduce our demands on natural resources and contain population growth, but that doesn't mean we have to pull the handbrake on technology/economic development.

I didn't say nuclear power was the permanent and be-all solution, or 100% of it. But it is certainly necessary for us to kick the can far enough down the road to allow time to figure out better energy sources. As you pointed out above, the time frame we're working with is understood to be quite short, 2050 at best. Renewable energy and energy storage technology is not nearly where it needs to be to solve that equation, even under the most optimistic scenarios of technology advancement and energy system conversion (and who knows if that equation is even solvable). The consequences of failing are understood to be catastrophic. That is not a risk profile worth taking that sort of bet on. Hence why expansion of nuclear energy generation HAS to be a key component of reducing fossil fuel reliance.

There is plenty of uranium to fuel that scenario.

Anyway, we're starting to get a fair way off the point of your initial post, which was to do with what the cost or a comparative carbon frame would be if manufactured in an advanced economy. I can certainly agree it would be higher than a low labour cost economy, obviously as if that weren't so that wouldn't be the current state of play. But I'd certainly argue it wouldn't be anything like the cost of Unno's frame if optimised for mass market consumption.
  • + 0
 @Ktron: Yeah english isn't my mother tongue so I may have some weird sentences sometimes. Short post, I got to move :

"There has always been cheaper labour and technology fundamental to the productive capacity of an economy and if you alter this at any point in time it would have the same effect.

So what's your drama? The liveable wage? Something else?"

I'd reformulate by saying there has always been people taking advantage of the weaker ones to amass useless amount of wealth.
And there has always been wars. And civilisation collapsing.
My drama is that the market should adapt to humans, life and environment, not the other way around.

"The fallacy that economic growth is dependent on ever increasing and unsustainable resource consumption and population growth is common, pervasive and I don't think trivial or theoretical at all."
Well that's like, your opinion man (just quoting the dude^^), but I could say the same of your opinion.
Or at least, that the part of economic growth attributed to technology/efficiency is only a small part compared to the part attributed to resource consumption/population growth.

"Global survival depends on our ability to reduce our demands on natural resources and contain population growth, but that doesn't mean we have to pull the handbrake on technology/economic development."
Sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if many techno/economic development wouldn't even be considered without fossile fuels and cheap labour.
Cuz' the bigger the development costs of a product, the more you'll need to sell to have a return on investment, the more you need mass market... and cheap labour... and fossile fuels.

I just hope I'm too pessimistic and future proves you right, until then but we're not gonna agree Smile .

"I can certainly agree it would be higher than a low labour cost economy, obviously as if that weren't so that wouldn't be the current state of play. But I'd certainly argue it wouldn't be anything like the cost of Unno's frame if optimised for mass market consumption."
Mmh, yeah I see your point but I don't know, I agree that you could optimize the process to lower the price (and the quality), but could you optimize enough for mass market ? As carbon takes some time to setup the carbon layers, human cost is huge on those frames.
  • + 0
 @Will-narayan:

Ha! I'd argue the market is perfectly adapted to humans as that is precisely what a market does, controlled or otherwise. It just reflects the behaviour of humans. In terms of adapting to the environment, humans need to do that - the market is just a reflection of what humans do.

I'm of the view that the market is highly similar to the natural environment. It's deeply inter-connected and interdependent and totally indifferent to the state of our existence. It doesn't owe anyone a comfortable existence. Economics/markets/money is ultimately a study of natural phenomena as none of it has any value until you connect it to the real world. The natural environmental is just as often ugly as it is beautiful and is ultimately beyond the control of humans.

Technology/efficiency growth. Is it minor? I mean much of what you're saying has seen the mass market become a rapacious beast I'd argue results from technology improvements which enabled massive increases in efficiency and productive capacity. Eg. Fossil fuels

I don't think I'm "right" or even have a view on how things are going to turn out. My issue is the frequent view that the "system" or the "market" is the problem that needs to be fixed when per above, its humans that need to adapt to the environment. It is interesting in this respect as until very recent times, economic development was seen primarily in financial terms whereas now, the concept of a "social license" is becoming increasingly widespread and development is also being assessed on social and environmental terms. Will be interesting to see how things turn out.
  • + 1
 @Ktron: Well, I don’t want this to sound harsh, I don’t know how to say it properly (and it's 2AM), I agree with your last message as much as I find it hypocritical (maybe that’s not the right word).
I mean, by saying this « market reflect humans », you sort of « cloud the issue », as if the market was a metaphysical entity of its own, though it’s also intrinsically true, as humans « create » the market.
So we create it, but we don’t have control on it (Frankenstein obviously comes to mind).
But I mean, when you see that there are taxes on everything but that a taxe on stock exchange transactions has been turned down for years (which could finance green technologies for instance), and that at the same time many farmers in Europe would go bankrupt without the CAP (common agricultural policy), everything is upside down.

And it’s the same when you say this : « much of what you're saying has seen the mass market become a rapacious beast I'd argue results from technology improvements which enabled massive increases in efficiency and productive capacity. Eg. Fossil fuels »
Yes technology/efficiency allowed us to use fossile fuels, then our use of it went out of control.

Still I think the crisis ahead is different, it’s not like a war, a revolution, or anything ever before, it will be global. Fossile fuels have been there for millions of years, and in a mere 2 centuries (during which world population has been multiplied by 7) we’re gonna burn it all, with irreversible consequences on the whole planet.
Humanity is a teen who grabs the food in the fridge but who isn’t mature enough to realize it’s not gonna fill itself up.
It is a one off in the history of the planet that started 4,5 billion years ago I think, just because we always want more, moar, MOAAAR, maybe as a remnant of when we were hunter-gatherer.

Well there probably was 80% of farmers in the 19th century, down to what, 10% now ? There may be 80-90% of farmers again at the end of the century (in developed countries I mean).

I don’t know, maybe what annoys me is that nothing makes sense :p .
  • + 5
 @mikelevy "Call me weird, but I don't want a bike that erases every single root and rock" yeah you should try 27.5 or even 26 wheels because what you say is exactly what 29ers are doing mate you don't make much sense there.
  • + 3
 @Balgaroth: These guy's have to write what sells. Remember that.
  • + 1
 Nah, you're getting the wrong idea from my words. Suspension travel and wheel size are interconnected, of course (29ers w/ less travel, for example), but big wheels and more suspension are far, far from being the same thing.
  • + 1
 @mikelevy: Yes they aren´t the same thing, big wheels make suspension worse, but at least they make up for it by better roll over...
  • + 6
 And did you guys notice the geo chart with the corresponding seat height/seattube angles? Props @mikelevy. Great review, and as always, enjoyable sense of humor.
  • + 2
 Thanks, it was a fun one to review!
  • + 4
 @MikeLevy maybe list prices as you would for other direct sales brands like Canyon and YT. EU price with VAT and non-EU without to allow for a direct comparison. Looks like a lot of people outside of the EU are just converting prices with VAT into their currency which puts the total cost much higher than it would actually be.
  • + 4
 It's funny how many reviews say something like "I spent months riding this bike" because either you're about 115 years old by now or these bikes are only being ridden a few times during the "months" period.
  • + 2
 Dont you know... Mike is Agent Smith.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLXaRtc1f4I
  • + 29
 It’s almost like it’s his job to ride bikes full time ...
  • + 5
 Kinda like it's my job, eh?
  • + 4
 Amazing bike and I’d want one in a large size at around 475mm reach.
But for that money fit a Factory X2 or DPX2 as that ohlins shock is far inferior in both performance and reliability (having owned 2!)
  • + 3
 Enduro Bearings are not high end. On all the bikes I've owned, I've replaced the junky Enduro Bearings with higher quality EZO or SKF if available. Enduro bearings are cheap and a cost cutting measure. I find it offensive that a bike of this caliber, or any frame costing $3000 or more has such cheap, crappy bearings.
  • - 1
 It uses MAX bearings, which are not low-end neither low-cost. Actually, some of their MAX bearings are made in Slovakia :-).
  • + 1
 @fluider: they are worst
  • - 2
 @inonyme: Just curious why they're worst?
  • + 1
 @fluider: Max bearings aren't better or worse than standard Enduro bearings, they're just designed for low rotation pivots.
  • + 4
 @fluider: Test by yourself, use Max on non drive side and SKF on drive side and check them back after 6 months.
They rust, the hardness process is low budget so they dont last and they are twice the price. when you own hundreds of thousand $ of machines relying on bearings of all type for non stop production, you learn about quality bearings
  • + 1
 @inonyme: Yep. SKF is like FAG. Anything else is BS. At least it make some people feel warm and fuzzy inside.
  • + 1
 @GTscoob: designed? You mean they are simply full complement bearings, not caged. Full complement for low angle of rotation pivots is very well known in engineering. Why do bike related stuff make the old seem new and revolutionary. #marketeering
  • + 2
 @fluider: MAX bearings just means they're full complement bearings, nothing special. Best indicator of quality is the ABEC grading.

I wouldn't say that Enduro aren't any better or any worse than the stock bearings that usually come on bikes, even though they're a lot more expensive. SKF or *ag are probably the best when it comes to bearings at that price point IMO.
  • + 2
 The only thing redeeming about Enduro bearings is that they're easier to source than higher quality brands. The bearings, when they're working properly are good enough. But it's the inconsistency of the bearings. I can get 2 identical bearings to install in opposite ends of the frame and chances are, one side will fail long before the other. Or not fail at all. Or fail at the same time. Some people have no problems with them for years, and good on them. They got lucky. But others will have issues with half or all the bearings on their bikes. Their QC is practically non existent.
  • + 1
 @AD4M: SKF seem to do a bike range that are utter shit. I bought SKF as I have worked with them on various projects and they were amazing but these ones seized at the first sign of wet weather. I'm really hoping they were counterfeit. Has anyone else had this problem?
  • + 1
 I do know they are full complement and their ABEC grade. But I also use them in my Rune V1.5 custom made linkage hardware, and after 3 years of light use but much water and humid environment they are as smooth as originally. SKF is generally twice that expensive with questionable quality-gain.
  • + 3
 please, please, Pinkbike journalists... resolution for 2019: speaking probably for the amount of readers who don't measure weights in lbs and heights in feet, would it be possible to indicate heights and weights also in metric system?
  • + 0
 25.4 and 2.2 done
  • + 3
 At last some meaningfully fresh non-geometronbus geometry.
.
Please, @Mike Levy, bring the Trust Message review on us! And don't be kind to either side (I've already read quite nonfavouring review).
  • + 1
 One where 6 people tried it and could not get it working as they wanted? That was fun read Smile
  • + 1
 @winko: yes, that one. It was quite weird. I read Lee McCormack's review of the Message fork and that was like first pro-rider review and very hopefully sounding. I recommend reading it.
  • + 1
 @fluider: In mtbr forum there is a lot of praise for it, right now seems like people don't find it to be perfect but really different in a good way. Everyone pretty much said you need to try it to see how much better it works during breaking and cornering compared to "normal forks".
  • + 1
 @winko: I wouldn't like to offend someone, because people are arguing about "rich olders being unable of aggressive riding" and as I remember from MTBR.com forum, people who bought the Message presented themselve as not aggressive riders.
This is the point where Lee McCormack's review comes very handy. He was testing it with his friend, head-to-head, exchaning standard bike with Message equipped bike and differences were big. The only major drawback mentioned by him was big-hit, big-landing harshness. Well, that's the result of rearward oriented 130mm of travel.
  • + 2
 "This will be a fast bike in the right hands, which is especially true if said rider fancies themselves as being someone who seeks out the tiniest of landings and sneakiest of lines. With the ability to find speed anywhere, a compact wheelbase, and suspension that knows its job entails more than just absorbing bumps, the Dash is for the rider who approaches singletrack in an inch-perfect way. They're going to look for roots to use as lips or transitions to help carry a smidge more speed, but also that riding is almost always about more than just all-out speed. He or she might also love the kind of terrain that rewards technical skill over full-beans bravado, and they're certainly the type to have their shit together."

So you're telling me the people who can afford this bike probably aren't the best suited to ride it.
  • + 1
 I know some pretty wealthy dudes who can shred the **** out of anything around here, so they do exist. I'm not one of them. Haha.
  • + 0
 @DrPete: exactly. I know 10 guys who could afford this and they would most likely destroy 95% of PB comment section on XC to DH
  • + 2
 The frame itself is pretty pricey, but the complete rigs are fairly on par. Sounds like a sick bike. I wonder how well it would do if you forked it up to 150. Also as sick as this bike is and awesome as it sounds I'd really like to know how you feel about those Goodyear tires.
  • + 2
 "Rojo suggested that most carbon frames are too stiff in the wrong directions because manufacturers don't have the know-how or even the time to experiment with different layups and structures."

Or - how about the need or desire to sell bikes at volume, at a price the market will accept?
  • + 2
 Mentioning the Thunderbolt, how the Dash frame cost more than the complete Thunderbolt, and how price is actually similar to other brands' halo bikes got me thinking... The 2019 Altitude C90 is $7.4k with the new 12 speed XTR, Saint brakes, Fox Factory (w/ Grip2 36), etc. But I suppose it doesn't have ENVE's, and you could probably make another thing or two more expensive, which might almost cover the 2.3k difference, but that could also be a new bike at that point. Props to Rocky; never thought of them as more "affordable" lol, but they've gotten there recently. On the other hand... Does S-Works, Trek RSL, Intense, Yeti, Alchemy seem pedestrian? Buy this bike. I love that part. The Bugatti of bikes. @mikelevy This one is a total looker, I'll agree with you there. Thanks for the review. Drool (sorry if that got off topic lol)
  • + 3
 More like the Koenigsegg of bikes (in-house production etc.)
  • + 2
 In the video @Mikelevy guesses that he's riding a $12K bike. Assuming he's talking U.S. dollars he's about 32% above actual cost delivered to your door. If I was Cesar, I'm probably a bit perplexed why you didn't take the 2 minutes to look at what their full costs are delivered to your door (without EU VAT) and with shipping.
  • + 3
 You have to see this thing in the flesh (well, carbon and stuff) as photos just don't do it any justice. All the details and the craftsmanship make it stunningly gorgeous and def a 10/10 want!!!
  • + 6
 Video ruined by feet. Put some shoes on man.
  • + 1
 You don't like my feet?
  • + 3
 @mikelevy: I think he 'like' likes them, and it was distracting.
  • + 2
 @mikelevy riddle me this. You say the bike is firm and efficient and a touch harsh but excels at big hits for its travel praising the decending capabilities. But then say you can't get down with the Ohlins shock that feels dead and over damped. Did you try a different shock on the back to test this theory? Just seems at odds to say this thing decends great with well controlled mid and end stroke (the damper being part of that equation). But then say the shock is over damped and dead feeling. Which is it?
  • + 2
 Not a lot of point justifying the price on a bike like this, if you compare it to a santa cruz CC its actually not that much more expensive and I see quite a number of people riding those. Yes its out of most peoples price range but it is a pretty special bike
  • + 4
 Its literally the same price as a Yeti, S Works , Trek or SC.
And keep in mind that the big S and Trek use in house components to keep the price (for themselves) down.

I wonder how much a S Works Stumpi costs them to make
  • + 3
 What makes it special lol its still a bike you have to pedal like any other bike. There are no custom parts on it and the frame looks pretty generic in my opinion. I'd be happier on a giant reign for half the price.
  • - 1
 @mhoshal: TruStory!
  • + 1
 @mhoshal: Im happy in pretty much any bike.
Small in house production numbers are usually far more expensive than Outsourcing...If you consider this the bike isnt that expensive (in comparison of course as 8000€ is still way to expensive...)
  • + 1
 @mhoshal: this x100. Not much is truly unique about it at all.
  • + 2
 I would really like to know how this bike rides with a real rear shock. After owning an STX22 my gut is that the harshness discussed is a direct result of the damping setup of the Ohlins.
  • + 1
 Regardless of what people think of the bike, I thought Mike did a excellent job in writing this review. The details on ride characteristics gave a really good idea of where this bikes fits into the spectrum. I've read a lot of other reviews lately on PB and other sites that leave a lot to the imagination when it comes to handling and ride feel. This review felt spot on for detail.
  • + 4
 Reviewing this bike is like asking a guy with a $250,000 Motorhome what kind of gas mileage it gets. Does it matter?
  • + 1
 I don't understand why beautiful bikes like this have to be so unique and "Gucci". Why can't Santa Cruz, Specialized, and Trek understand that we all want bikes with geometry, travel, and kinematics like this? What's stopping them from producing something like this at a lower price? It doesn't seem like rocket science. I'd say the closest thing to the Dash (Geo/travel wise) that is massed produced would be the GT Sensor, but half of its colorways look like doo-doo, and according to PB its suspension action is abhorrent. I just hope we start seeing a new wave of bikes like this starting this year, knowing that Santa Cruz and YT should be putting out new 29 trail bikes pretty soon...
  • + 1
 I totally get wanting to spend money on the best, but at a certain point, you hit a point of diminishing returns; probably about $6,000 USD or so.
The problem is, old mountain bikes just don't age well, like cars, motorcycles, or other large purchases. They lose much of their value and kinda just look goofy. Think of all those early Norco VPS frames....
There's just not that much to gain by buying one of these bad boys, but then again, this is coming from someone who works for a living and wants to retire early. If money is no object, then go for it!
  • + 1
 There is absolutely nothing to gain financially from buying any bike ever--at least not as a hobby. Maybe if you're buying a bike as transportation and selling your car. 99.9% of the world thinks it's insane to spend more than $1000 on a bike. I agree, though, on the law of diminishing returns and when it kicks in. The top end bikes are what they are and virtually all of the non-pros who buy them do it because it makes them happy and motivates them to ride.
  • + 1
 @mikelevy Thanks for pointing out the issue with the Apex stem. Have been experiencing that on my own bike, and it’s good to know what I’m not crazy. Never had that much trouble keeping a stem straight. Even degreasing it and appling some friction paste didn’t fully solve the issue for me.
  • + 2
 ...'most carbon frames are too stiff in the wrong directions because manufacturers don't have the know-how or even the time to experiment with different layups and structures.' B.s.
  • + 1
 "Geometry is more important than your feelings and opinions about suspension and wheel size", maybe "Geometry is AS important AS your feelings and opinions about suspension and wheel size"

A fully rigid penny farthing is extremely difficult to navigate through the trails, even with the slackest of front ends.
  • + 1
 That's because the rest of its geometry sucks. Razz
  • + 5
 it looks a lot like dw-link...
  • + 4
 @ondrejaugustin: What? You thought you were getting an original design for that money? LoL

Copy & Paste, jack the price. It's the 'New Style'
  • + 2
 @ondrejaugustin I was thinking the same thing. If it's NOT a DW-link I'd love a suspension guru to explain the difference. He explained how its different than VPP, but looks like DW to me. Now that is a good thing IMO, but I'm still curious.
  • + 1
 it would be interesting to add the leverage curves and see how it correlates to the way the reviewer describes the bike handling.
  • + 1
 Well he did say it rides a lot like his old Ripley
  • + 1
 Yeah, I was actually wondering if it was licensed (for extra $$ to skip putting the dw-link name on it) and Cesar Rojo just doesn't want to mention it since he's got kind of a big ego, or if they just ripped it off and said "f*ck it, we're in Spain, he can't get to us" (also pretty egotistical)
  • + 4
 here's my if I win the lottery bike. one sexy bike. have to chuck a fox x2 on tho
  • + 2
 Why u need a big volume air shock on a trail bike?
The DPX2 should be plentyful
  • + 1
 @NotNamed: big volume is always better. It's a slack trail bike made to be ridden fast, not a 70HA xc bike.
  • + 1
 @zede: Not always. A lot of trail bikes have leverage curves that dont suit big air shocks.
  • + 1
 I just got my Unno Dash and am loving it. Great customer service. Cesar Rojo himself was answering all my questions by email and made sure I got the bike the bike exactly how I wanted. I was looking at an Evil Offering and Yeti SB130 as well and this bike ended up being cheaper when taking into account tax. My bike is lighter at 27.1 lbs b/c I go the Enve m630's with DHRII 2.4f and 2.3r. I agree 100% with the review. Didn't mention how quiet the bike rides as well. Nice job Mike Levy.
  • + 1
 I happen to ride one for about a year. It is great. It feels more like a nimble XC / trail bike to me, it might not always feel fast while riding, but in terms of seconds, it is definitely fast. With low stack and cockpit, you need to engage in steep descents, but that’s fun in the end. It might not suit to everyone,but I guess Cesar felt this is the right bike for his style of riding.. He did it right!

From today’s geometries perspective, I wouldn't recommend it to anyone taller than 175cm. And yeah, the full build kits available now seems a cheat on those who bought frames in the beginning.
  • + 4
 Where's the huck to flat video?
  • + 1
 @mikelevy great review as always on a great site. So if you consider the minions way too heavy, what would you recommend for a good all mountain trail riding set of tires and what size?
  • + 0
 OK....for the price of that frame I could get a complete RM Pipeline 30 and a custom Naked or DeKerf titanium frame,,,,hmmmm. I know which route I'd go if I had that sort of $$$ Smile But I don't, so....
Maybe it's just me, but the 'carbon allure' is certainly diminished when I could probably go over to Alibaba and find a knock-off for $800'ish Smile
This is just me/my mindset. Other's experiences may vary
  • + 1
 The people that ride these types of bikes are the ones you see in Moab walking up steep climbs, and walking down anything technical.
  • + 3
 Or we just want to believe they are. I'm just as guilty as anyone but it's clearly the MTBer's most common psychological response to assume that anyone who has something we really want deep down is to assume that they just can't be as good a rider as we are. I'm not one of them but there are definitely people out there with garages full of bikes like this Unno and spend time riding the hell out of them.
  • + 1
 No offense because I'm riding a Pike as well, but it does not fit here. If it's got to be the most expensive bike in the world, some more exotic fork should be there.
  • + 5
 Nothing wrong with the Pike. It's definitely RS's top of the line mid-to-long travel fork for aggressive riding. There's no evidence that a more expensive and exotic fork will necessarily perform better, thus it has no place on a bike simply because of its rarity.
  • + 4
 @seraph: Honestly, I've been riding both a Pike and BOS Deville and to be honest, there is some performance gap between them in favour of Bos. I don't say Pike is bad but it simply doesn't fit in here.
  • + 1
 @mihauek: I rode a Formula 35 for a season and it was in no way better performing than the Pike. It was more expensive for sure, and more exotic (at the time there were only 5 in the US), but it was not better. I'd have a very hard time being convinced that one fork is better than another simply because it's pricier.
  • + 1
 @seraph: I've never ridden a Formula so can't say a thing about it. However, there was a significant difference between riding a regular boxxer and a boxxer with avalanche cartridge - that was quite expensive but it was worth cause it worked smooth as butter Big Grin
  • + 2
 Still waiting for Pinkbike tech editors to figure out that you can't compare reach without normalizing stack height
  • + 1
 Where's that article about RAD? Seemed like a way of doing exactly that.
  • + 1
 Based on this article, I can tell Mike Levy loves energy drinks and candy...I actually am a dentist, and I wouldn't buy this bike. I also love energy drinks and candy.
  • + 1
 I mean, for the money at least the paint job is on point. That mirror gloss makes some other bikes look like they were painted with a push broom.
  • + 1
 Aww man it don’t come in a large I guess I’m gonna have to pass, I had the $15,000 USD on hand after I sold my Honda Civic I’d rather ride this to work hahaha
  • + 2
 ultra expensive??
complete build on enve is cheaper than us "made in china boutiques" with out enve
  • + 1
 ???? Maybe Yeti. Maybe. Name em. Intense, cheaper. Evil, cheaper. SC, cheaper. Rocky (I know it's Canadian), cheaper. Transition, cheaper. Kona, cheaper. Need I continue?
  • + 2
 I can only assume you're referencing the 8-10k S-Works, Yeti Turq, Trek RSL, and tippy top of the line Santa Cruz. But please, show me all the common brands that you deride for supposedly costing 10k+ without ENVE.
  • + 1
 @mtbikeaddict: The Yeti XX1 builds are within a couple hundred dollars and come with DT Swiss carbon wheels that are right up with Enve price-wise. That said I am surprised how relatively close the pricing is for a real-deal handmade frame from a small manufacturer. There's definitely a premium but it's not what I would've expected. Still too rich for my blood though.
  • + 1
 @DrPete: Well said. The frame is expensive though. But still. Handmade blah blah blah, you're right could be worse, but at any rate still too "caviar". I'm not that rich lol. But boy it looks nice.
  • + 1
 @mtbikeaddict: I suspect @vitality 's perspective comes from the obligatory import duties, distributor and 20+% sales tax that are slapped on anywhere in the EU. A simple example: an RMB Slayer Carbon 90 out here is the same price as an Unno with the Elite build :S
  • + 1
 @flappie: Ah ok makes sense. Here the Altitude C90 is 2.3k less
  • - 1
 FFS, at that price I'd expect to see a Chris King headset and hubs, not DT Swiss/Cane Creek. Also should be Guide Ultimates, not Guide RSC brakes. Nothing wrong with a Pike fork, but if I was shelling out nearly 9000 euro for a bike, I'd want something more "special".

Put it this way; a 1.5l engine out of a VW Golf is perfectly adequate for most people, but that doesn't mean I'd want it in a Ferrari I were to buy one; I'd want a V8 or a V12. Same with the Pikes.
  • + 2
 ''almost invisible''

Is this how we describe very visible integrated parts now?
  • + 0
 Yes, from here on in Smile
  • + 3
 Sounds like its just an okay bike.
  • + 1
 oh...and i've just thought about Renthal Apex stem for my Renthal carbon handlebar 780mm,
can you recommend it for aggressive enduro riding? is it stiff/flex enough ?
  • + 1
 The downtime podcast interview with Cesar Rojo is worth a listen - he's certainly not afraid to have opinions, even if they are different to everyone else!
  • + 2
 "Also, get off my lawn." Actually spit my coffee out laughing while reading this.
  • + 3
 This needs a NSFW warning in the title.
  • + 1
 I presume that 0/90 weave is just a finishing ply or else get yourself someone who knows what they're doing with carbon and get some weight out of that frame.
  • + 2
 If I was another bike riding on the trail and I saw this this sexy thing glide past me, I'd wanna make love to it
  • + 2
 lost me at 5kusd frameset
  • + 2
 Stopped reading at 'medium only'
  • + 1
 Only a 40 headset? Damn, I would of stepped up if it had a 110....... oh well, now I can save for old age.
  • + 2
 How many donuts did it take to power this bike up hill?
  • + 3
 A dozen for every 3,000ft.
  • + 1
 the bike has nothing new or really special on it other then its price...Ultra-Expensive
  • + 1
 Nice bike but how's the customer service if I crack a seat stay in 11 months?
  • + 1
 I've never heard my riding style more accurately described - "A messy pinner who takes chances." lol
  • + 2
 Kidney for sale, average condition for age. New bike forces sale....
  • + 1
 That's a really nice looking bike now where is the link to those open molded Chinese carbon $300 bikes?
  • + 1
 This is like buying a Ferrari if it wasn't any better than a Kia and I had no more interest in it either.
  • + 1
 can you guys review unno's enduro bike (the Burn) and their downhill bike (the Ever)? pleassssseeee?!?!
  • + 1
 I hear the Dh bike is amazing. Well, Greg says it is. I would say hr is biased but he does seem to legitimately love it.
  • + 1
 Cool bike. Don't think it would be my first choice for this category, but still a cool bike.
  • - 2
 It is a cool bike and everything, I just don't get how they can ask for so much money without even having a WC level racing team? There are few other brands that sells similar bikes for similar $ (i.e. FRM) but they have quite an history in WC and High Level races.
  • + 1
 www.unno.com/racing
Unno has a well publicised DH WC team. May be different for this year, but it certainly exists.
Plus, racing heritage is hardly relevant for most people.
  • - 3
 @codfather1234: yeah, because these are just lifestyle bikes for the middle aged wealthy....
  • + 4
 @RedRedRe: So only broke young people can ride well?
Look, I'll acknowledge that younger people take more risks and have certain physical advantages. But what makes you think that those that are broke, have more riding talent than those that aren't? Less to lose? What's your theory? Cause there are an awful lot of CF Superbikes being shredded on at my local trails by 40-55 year old guys
Overall people that are well off (what I consider average successful adult really, not at all rich) are going to also be more skilled than average, at other things besides just making money.
In a world where getting old can kind of suck, being able to buy all the rad toys is one of the things that makes it a bit more bearable. So don't knock it!
  • - 4
flag RedRedRe (Jan 7, 2019 at 12:31) (Below Threshold)
 @SunsPSD: whoever buys a unno is not going to shred regardless of the age.... these are the kind of bikes for people meeting at the coffe shop.
  • + 1
 @SunsPSD: "CF Superbikes" RIDDEN or shredded? Maybe you're place is different, but I've seen a lot of those bikes being ridden more gently than my buddy on his Walmart bike.
  • + 1
 Check out some of the truly expensive custom road bikes. No pro team necessary.
  • + 1
 I want to hear more about The Message
  • + 1
 Beautifully built frames. Those links, damn.
  • + 0
 Why they make such a flash looking bike then put a r/s fork in is completely beyond me
  • + 1
 inner cable route , inside brake caliper.
  • + 1
 I'd rather ride an Orange Stage 5.
  • + 1
 It's a super modified Commencal meta.
  • + 1
 I can’t afford it so anyone who buys it can’t ride as well as I can.
  • + 1
 LX or GX? Damn does Shimano still do an LX group set!?
  • + 1
 No, but slx is essentially the same thing.
  • + 1
 @woofer2609: yes they do, but it´s not aimed at MTB.
  • + 1
 Remember when bikes got a "Con" for not having DH tires?
  • + 1
 I'd rather have a Liteville.
  • + 0
 If they offer a 485mm reach frame, I'm going straight to the bank for a loan...
  • + 1
 I read that they may be offering larger frames after they get their full lineup released. Not sure where though.
  • + 0
 Pretty sure a tall dentist would swap the dropper post with something a tad longer...
  • + 9
 Dentist? This is a plastic Surgoen’s bike!
  • + 1
 Finally a proper review for that interesting bike ! Thanks
  • + 0
 Who is this bike suited to? People with piles of cash laying around that they don’t know what to do with.
  • + 2
 there is a lot of people like that....
  • + 1
 Would like to see field test burn vs machine
  • + 0
 Confused? Pics with a RS Pike but specs says "FOX FLOAT 34 FACTORY 29", TAPERED STEERER, 140MM TRAVEL" ?
  • + 1
 CC 40 headset on this bike is a sin.
  • - 3
 César Rojo uses his capacity as a cyclist to sell products that are not of the quality that his price deserves.
It does not propose anything new, and has never contributed anything to the design or technology of today's bicycles.
Everything you sell is simply a copy of the design work of other brands or people.
  • + 0
 Hey genius, if you are gonna accuse someone of copying, link the original. Without it, you're just a moron talking shit on internet.
  • + 0
 @zede: when they want I give them a chair of the history of the evolution of mountain bikes.
  • + 1
 Mike, is that a Tank Abbot on your left shin?
  • + 1
 Oh no????????????
  • + 1
 Uh, no.
  • + 0
 Isn't the mondraker's dual link system originates from Astro..?
  • + 1
 Mondraker bikes used to be made (or maybe they still are) by astro, but at that time I think they used to run on fsr suspension, at least the dh model that barel was riding...
  • + 1
 damn thats smooth
  • + 1
 What is the ett?
  • + 1
 oops
  • - 1
 only a spoiled brats can buy this better u like it or not hahahhahhahhahhahaaa
  • + 0
 $9700 US.... no thanks...
  • + 3
 You're not subject to EU value added tax so $8,180 plus shipping Kahuna. Still a lot but more competitive in my eyes.
  • + 1
 26" single speed?
  • + 0
 same geo as every other stupid bike...

450+ chainstays now!
  • + 1
 @mikelevy is it possible that the poor climbing has more to do with the short rear end than the long front end? 430mm on a 29er is quite short, making for a larger 'looping angle'. It seems that generally people are raving about the climbing ability of things like the Pole Machine and Geometron despite these being bigger travel bikes. They tend to have long front centers but correspondingly large rear centers (450mm+) and steep seat angles. A 75 degree seat angle with a 430 rear center makes for a vague front-end while climbing anything steep/tech I'm thinking.
  • + 1
 @Gregdogg: it most definitely was caused by that, front center of this bike is not something anyone would consider long these days.
  • + 1
 wow......
  • + 1
 LoL NOPE.
  • - 3
 Show me the sales figures, I need a laugh on a Monday.

Who is funding this stuff?

Their greatest talent is not making bikes, but convincing someone to continue to fund them. Wow!
  • + 1
 maybe if you tried to look up what Cesar did/ is doing for other brands in bike/moto industry instead of asking stupid questions you might´ve found the answer quite quickly.
  • + 3
 @Mondbiker: he didn't ask what Cesar is doing for anyone else. He asked for their sales figures.
Legitimate question but not one he will get an answer too.
  • + 0
 @betsie: He asked who is funding UNNO, and like I said, Guy who is clearly damn good designer working for big brands like KTM doesn´t need anyone to fund him.
  • + 1
 @Mondbiker:
It is CERO Designes who are behind Unno as an internal project for a design house.
Cesar Rojo is the founder and general manager of what is a private company. Therefore you wont get any profit and loss or sales figures online.

CERO have also done work for Intense, Mondraker.

www.wearecero.com/projects/unno
www.wearecero.com/work
www.linkedin.com/company/cero-design
www.linkedin.com/company/cero-design/about
www.linkedin.com/search/results/people/?facetCurrentCompany=%5B%221005510%22%5D

UNNO bikes are fully designed, engineered and manufactured internally at CERO, being a living lab to explore and implement cutting-edge technologies. We are not a manufacturing facility, but as an exception, we make a very low volume production for the UNNO brand. Our own expression.
  • + 1
 Unno, dos, tres.
  • + 0
 It seems that @mikelevy got heavily overbiked
  • - 1
 To much money for not enough of everything
  • - 3
 Rear centre is 10mm too short.
  • - 3
 you fuckers should review the new felt compulsion 1
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