Rocky Mountain Slayer 790 MSL - Review
The name may be the same but the bike sure isn't. Rocky Mountain's Slayer returns after a two-year hiatus, this time with 165mm of travel and a design the Canadian company says is ready for everything from EWS racing to ''bike park laps and big mountain lines,'' a claim that's reinforced by the 170mm-travel Fox 36 on the front of our 790 MSL test bike. The new frame is carbon fiber from front to back, including the rocker link, chainstays, and seatstays, and it also features a revised version of Rocky's Smoothlink suspension system.
It's the high-end 790 MSL reviewed below that, with the best Fox has to offer, goes for $6,999 USD. Dream-worthy, for sure, but you don't need to spend that much to get the same frame and slack geometry. The 2017 Slayer is available in four flavors, starting off with the 730 MSL that goes for $4,199 USD, and all of those models are assembled around the same carbon fiber frame that's also available on its own for $3,199 USD with a Fox Float X2 shock.
Slayer 790 MSL Details
• Intended use: enduro / all-mountain
• Wheel size: 27.5''
• Rear wheel travel: 165mm
• Full carbon fiber frame
• Ride-4 adjustable geometry
• 1x-specific
• Sizes: S / M / L (tested) / XL
• Weight: 29lbs 10oz (L)
• MSRP: $6,999 USD.
• Intended use: enduro / all-mountain
• Wheel size: 27.5''
• Rear wheel travel: 165mm
• Full carbon fiber frame
• Ride-4 adjustable geometry
• 1x-specific
• Sizes: S / M / L (tested) / XL
• Weight: 29lbs 10oz (L)
• MSRP: $6,999 USD.
The carbon frame is 1x-specific, makes use of Boost hub spacing, and also has room for 26'' x 3'' rubber. Break out those Gazzaloddi tires you've been hoarding.Frame Details
The Slayer's carbon fiber frame, which is all-new and made in the same factory as Rocky's other carbon bikes, shares a similar appearance to the company's Maiden DH rig, with a vertically-mounted shock compared to Rocky's less well-endowed bikes that employ a top tube-mounted rocker link and horizontal shock. Just like its bigger brother, the Slayer also gets the carbon treatment for the rocker link, both its chainstays and seat stays, as well as the pared-down Ride-4 geometry adjusting chip at the lower shock mount. If you think that the 165mm-travel Slayer is a 'Honey I Shrunk the Kids' version of the 200mm-travel Maiden, you're on the right path.
Another similarity between the Maiden and the new Slayer is the use of bearings rather than the bushing system found on many of Rocky's shorter-travel bikes. According to Brian Park, Rocky Mountain's marketing manager, ''The move to bearings on Slayer came about from our desire to make the back end narrower, even with Boost spacing.'' The slim, one-sided pivot design apparently wouldn't have been doable had they gone with bushings.
There's one other place where bearings have been used - on the upper shock mount. Why not on both ends? Rocky says this is because only the top mount sees noticeable rotation, so it makes sense to only use it there.
There's one other place where bearings have been used - on the upper shock mount. Why not on both ends? Rocky says this is because only the top mount sees noticeable rotation, so it makes sense to only use it there.
The upper shock mount employs sealed bearings to cut down on friction.
The Slayer is 1x-specific, and with no need to accommodate a derailleur, the bike's designers moved its main pivot out laterally into that real estate to create more frame rigidity. However, this was where the upper ISCG 05 chain guide tab would usually call home, so now there are just two lower tabs that are still spaced as if it was a standard ISCG 05 setup. e*thirteen has a guide to fit already, and the bike comes with a tiny bolt-on guide that sits atop the Slayer's chainstay. Also, some sort of taco-style protection can be bolted into the two remaining chain guide tabs if you're worried about 50/50'ing jumps.
Adjustable Geometry
Rocky Mountain's shorter-travel bikes employ an adjustable geometry and suspension setup called Ride-9 that lets the owner tune the bike's suspension and handling independently, in nine different ways. It's a clever system, but it's also one that requires some trial and error to get the most out of it. The Slayer sports a less complicated version, called Ride-4, that tunes the bike's geometry four ways without changing its suspension action. It provides just over a full degree of head and seat-tube angle adjustment, as well as 15mm of bottom bracket height change, and suspension ramp-up can be tuned independently via volume spacers as required.
Rocky Mountain's shorter-travel bikes employ an adjustable geometry and suspension setup called Ride-9 that lets the owner tune the bike's suspension and handling independently, in nine different ways. It's a clever system, but it's also one that requires some trial and error to get the most out of it. The Slayer sports a less complicated version, called Ride-4, that tunes the bike's geometry four ways without changing its suspension action. It provides just over a full degree of head and seat-tube angle adjustment, as well as 15mm of bottom bracket height change, and suspension ramp-up can be tuned independently via volume spacers as required.
Rocky Mountain was also one of the first companies to start using relatively steep seat angles, something that continues with the Slayer. They've also designed the bike with a short seat mast to provide room for the new long-travel dropper posts that are coming out.
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The Slayer's Suspension Explained
Rocky Mountain has long used the Smoothlink name when talking about their full-suspension designs, and many have come to associate that moniker with an axle pivot that sits above or close to in-line with the bike's axle. But this is obviously not the case on the 165mm-travel Slayer, as it relies on a more traditional four-bar layout where the pivot sits well below the axle line. The Smoothlink name remains, though. Asking if the change has anything to do with the expiration of the Horst Link patent seems like a reasonable question, then.
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The rocker link and vertical shock give the bike similar lines as the Maiden, and a very different appearance to the rest of Rocky's range.Park replies to that query: ''Today we use Smoothink to describe our design philosophy and the ride characteristics we try to achieve with every model. In general, that means that our bikes are more supple during climbs and across a wider range of gears than our competitors while having a controlled end-stroke and the typical Rocky Mountain ride feel of being more capable than the travel indicates. At this stage, we let the chainstay pivot fall where it needs to fall in order to achieve the anti-squat, axle path, chain growth, rate curve, anti-rise, etc... that we're looking for.''
In other words, Park is saying that the name doesn't define the design.
There are also only so many ways to get the job done, of course, which can lead to the age-old ''looks like a Session'' comment that's taken on a life of its own. ''The suspension kinematics of today have moved past the dogmatic battle between FSR vs. VPP vs. DW, etc...,'' says Park. ''Suspension design is a game of millimeters, and while some systems may look similar, riding them will quickly set them apart.'' Rocky says that they focused on creating support at the Slayer's sag point, something that can often make for a lively feeling and relatively playful bike, and that the Slayer's suspension ramps up in a moderately progressive curve. The idea is consistency over the whole stroke instead of a steep ramp-up at the end of it.
There are also only so many ways to get the job done, of course, which can lead to the age-old ''looks like a Session'' comment that's taken on a life of its own. ''The suspension kinematics of today have moved past the dogmatic battle between FSR vs. VPP vs. DW, etc...,'' says Park. ''Suspension design is a game of millimeters, and while some systems may look similar, riding them will quickly set them apart.'' Rocky says that they focused on creating support at the Slayer's sag point, something that can often make for a lively feeling and relatively playful bike, and that the Slayer's suspension ramps up in a moderately progressive curve. The idea is consistency over the whole stroke instead of a steep ramp-up at the end of it.
The dropout pivot is located well below the bike's axle line, but Rocky says that it's still a Smoothlink design.
Mike Levy: You've spec'd a 170mm-travel fork on all four complete Slayer builds but we've seen many EWS races won on 160mm-travel (or less) bikes with 160mm-travel forks. Don't you think a 170mm fork could be overkill for many riders?
Brian Park: 165/170mm is the sweet spot for certain tracks and riders, especially people who plow through trail chunder rather than dance over it. The Slayer is light and pedals super well, so for a lot of riders, it's worth having just a little more capability. We'll be making both the Altitude and Slayer available to our EWS team next year.
Levy: The Slayer has quite a bit of anti-squat and a steep seat angle, both to presumably make the bike a relatively good climber. How hard is it to balance this with the bike's main intention, which is obviously to come back down?
Park: Call the Slayer 65% downhill biased, but it was critical to us that it pedal and climb well. During mule testing when we nailed down the anti-squat and angles, the climbing performance was one of the things that gave us the confidence to have our EWS team ride it. It may be a tired marketing cliché to say a bike "climbs like an XC bike and descends like a DH bike," but it's what all manufacturers are aiming for with a bike like the Slayer. So yeah, it was hard to balance and make sure the descending performance didn't suffer, but we think the Slayer hits the sweet spot.
Levy: Not to take the shine off the carbon Slayer, but you have to assume that a lot of riders are pining for a less expensive alloy frame. So, when will we see that?
Park: An alloy Slayer is something we're strongly considering for the future.
Specifications
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Climbing
When I first got my hands on the 2017 Slayer, I was in Whistler for the annual drink and skid fest otherwise known as Crankworx. As such, the 165mm-travel bike was kept in its most relaxed geometry position since that seemed fitting given where and how I was riding the bike. I did work my way up a few long, nasty climbs on Whistler's neighbor, Blackcomb, sans chairlift, but I wasn't really thinking too much about how the new enduro race-inspired beast from Rocky Mountain handled those tasks. Funny how a week in Whistler will do that to someone.
But now that I've had the bike back on my home trails for months on end, riding mountains that I unashamedly love to climb to the top of via my own steam, the Slayer's climbing abilities are more in the spotlight. And what do I think? I'm impressed, but I certainly wasn't until I made some changes to the bike's geometry. I had left the bike in its slackest, 64.5-degree head angle, a number that was only seen on downhill bikes a few short years ago, and, as you'd expect, it was a handful on anything remotely technical. My favorite local climb requires roughly an hour or so of hard work, and while none of it is insanely challenging, there's a load of switchbacks that seem to take riders up and back in equal amounts, and a few low-speed power moves that can test the quads in the off-season. No surprise, then, that the Slayer didn't exactly slay any of those ups when in its most down-friendly setting, and it was probably even worse than I had expected. Yes, I know it's not made for such things, but it's certainly something to keep in mind if you pedal up tricky singletrack to get to the goods.
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Don't let the appearance fool you, because this big rig can climb quite well thanks to it being very efficient.The Slayer was practically a different bike when I rotated the chip so to attain a 65.85-degree head angle, though. Just over one degree steeper up front, along with an even steeper seat angle, transformed the bike from frustrating to fun. Yes, I actually had fun pedaling the Slayer up some heinous climbs. It still requires a heavier hand on steep sections than something like an Arktos or even a Slash, but that's to be expected. The steep seat angle naturally moved my weight forward, which helps, and I'd still further exaggerate this until the nose of the seat was close to checking out my colon on ultra-steep pitches. Bottom line: I no longer dreaded getting the blue and yellow beast up the mountain.
In Whistler during Crankworx, I questioned Rocky's choice to spec Fox's Float X2 shock without the slick low-speed compression lever add-on to act as a pedal assist. Truth be told, I didn't end up doing a ton of climbing, and I was too busy trying to keep the bike pointing in the right direction (it was in the slack setting) to really think about what was happening below me. And what was happening below me? Not much, which is a very good thing. Rocky says that the bike's Smoothlink suspension employs a good amount of anti-squat (chain-induced suspension firming), and that makes for a bike that I expected to pedal like shit pedal like anything but shit. In fact, it's the most efficient enduro-focused bike I can remember riding.
The steeper geometry setting helps to make the Slayer more manageable on climbs, as you'd expect, but it also doesn't take away from its descending prowess.
When it comes to climbing mountains aboard the Slayer, setup is absolutely key, more so than on any other bike I've been on recently. I know that a lot of riders automatically go straight to the most bro-brah setting, aka the slackest angles, but do yourself a favor if you own a Slayer and give the opposite a try. The bike pedals well enough that it'll be its angles that hold it back (more on that later, though) rather than gushy suspension feel, and Rocky's Ride-4 system lets you control that so best to take advantage of it.
Descending and Suspension
With the 150mm-travel Altitude in their catalog, Rocky Mountain was free to create a bike with much more bias towards descending than if it also had to do double-duty as a burly trail bike. So that's exactly what they did when designing the Slayer, and the result is, somewhat predictably, an absolute beast on the downhills. I know, that's not exactly news, and you're not exactly surprised, but the Slayer isn't exactly just a slacked out mini-DH bike with a dropper post. It's also a very different beast compared to a Slash, Sanction, Enduro and the rest of the enduro-gang.
Those three examples, while each being a fiend in their own right, can't claim to have the poppy and playful abilities of the Slayer. To say that I'm surprised by how much fun the big Slayer was to ride in places that it probably shouldn't be would be an understatement.
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The Slayer eats up chunky terrain like it's peanut butter, regardless of what geo setting the bike is set to.If you've read a decent amount of my thoughts on bikes before this, you might already be aware of my preference for a shorter travel, playful bike over something that's more forgiving, a bias that I'll fully admit to coloring some of my opinions. And that's why, at least early in the test, I wasn't overly excited about the yellow and blue Rocky Mountain; I was expecting a ultra-plush bike that would only soak up all my efforts to be a complete goober concerning line choices and playing around. I was completely wrong about that, however, especially after I tinkered with the bike's Ride-4 geometry chip.
In the slack setting the Slayer is essentially a downhill bike. It can go through anything, and it will be the man rather than the machine that determines what's going to happen. But in this mode, it takes some real speed and skill to make the most out of it, especially because of the relaxed geo and 170mm Fox 36 that require some proper downward trail angle, or at least some proper weight up front, in order to get a good feel from the front of the bike. If you're not over the front, or on terrain worthy of the bike's angles, it will tend to push and feel vague, which is where the very useful Ride-4 system comes in.
After my time in Whistler and a month or so at home with the Slayer in its slackest setting, I flipped the lower shock mount insert to engage the steeper, 65.85-degree head angle. It immediately felt like I was on a different bike, one that was much more fun, lively and willing to do as I asked. This was also surely aided by the very impressive efficiency. Gone was the Slayer's tendency to feel awkward on slow corners, with it now wanting to dive in and out of any type of bend with ease and a surprising amount of agility, much more so than most other rigs focused on enduro racing. The best part? The damn thing still felt just as capable when the trail got vertical, fast, and scary.
Given its enduro racing intentions, it's no surprise that the Slayer is comfy at speed on any type of trail.
I've said that adjustable geometry is a silly thing, and I still believe that holds true in most cases, but this marks the second time that I was wrong about the Slayer. Thankfully, me being wrong is a very good thing. If you either already own a Slayer or are thinking of picking one up, do yourself a favor and spend time riding the bike in the steeper setting - you'll be surprised.
Low pressures and low damping; the Float X2 works best with the Slayer when its circuits are nearly fully open.The Slayer's rear-end is interesting in that it's not quite as forgiving as you'd expect given the bike's 165mm of travel, and that it also works best with the Float X2's damper adjustments backed mostly out. Don't get me wrong, 165mm is still 165mm, but the top third of the Slayer's suspension seemed to feed a touch more feedback through to the bike (and rider) than some other machines, even at the suggested shock settings. This is likely due to the relatively high amount of anti-squat built into the design, which is also the reason that the Slayer pedals so freaking well and is surprisingly playful in the right setting. Hey, you can't have it all. Adding too much low-speed compression does nothing to help the already crazy good pedaling manners, but it will add harshness. My final settings were as follows: 160 PSI in the Float X2 to deliver 22mm of sag, eleven clicks out on LSR, thirteen out on HSR, eighteen out on LSC, and sixteen out on HSC, which are all very close to what Rocky Mountain recommends.
There's also a decent amount of progression with four or five volume spacers in the shock's air can, but larger riders might find themselves maxed out in that regard. As suggested by Rocky, 22mm of sag seemed spot-on for me, with full travel being used in those 'oh shit' moments when I thought I wasn't going to be able to hold on yet always managed to keep it together. I also experimented with running 20mm of sag but, truth be told, this seemed like a waste of time given how well the Slayer pedals regardless. The damn thing would probably be full of spunk with fifty-percent sag, although sneaking in enough pedal strokes to get moving might be hard. Don't do that, but do go with 22mm and call it a day.
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Technical Report
• Maxxis Minion WT Tires: It shouldn't be a surprise that a tire that was already pretty damn good in a standard width is even better when it's made to suit modern wide-ish rims, and that's exactly what Maxxis has done with the Wide Trail variation of their popular Minion rubber. The 2.5'' wide Minion DHF WT tires on the Slayer, with their better-supported side lugs, are pretty unreal in most conditions. I ended up running between 17 and 23 psi, depending on the trail and the weather, and I quickly realized that it was hard to fault them in the traction department. They obviously don't roll quickly, but they make perfect sense on a bike like the Slayer.
• 170mm RockShox Reverb: Something else that makes perfect sense on the Slayer is its 170mm-travel Reverb. The big Rocky has travel and angles that are above a lot of riders' skill grade, which will likely lead to most Slayer owners pushing their own skills to new heights. Best to have the seat as far out of the way as possible, then; and the 170mm of drop works only because Rocky designed the Slayer with such a low seat mast. Unfortunately, the post developed a bit of sag after only ten rides or so. It hasn't gotten any worse, but it's still a bummer given that it's such a key component on the bike.
Rocky Mountain has, appropriately enough, spec'd the 790 MSL with great rubber and a 170mm-travel dropper post.• Clang Clang: If there were ever a bear-proof bike, it'd be the Slayer. The chain slap, likely exacerbated by the relatively high amount of anti-squat designed into the bike's suspension, is loud enough that riders behind me would comment on it. A chain guide with a lower roller would no doubt help, as would liberal amounts of extra padding on the drive-side chain stay, or you could just leave it and never have to worry about being attacked by a startled animal.
• Fox Suspension: There's not much, or anything, between Fox's and RockShox's high-end suspension these days, and it really only comes down to how many adjustments you want to tinker with. The 790 MSL comes with the best from Fox, and the 36 fork and Float X2 shock performed as well as you'd expect while being incredibly adjustable. I did end up with the X2's damper adjustments backed almost completely out, so an even lighter or less aggressive rider may find themselves at the far end of the tuning scale. Also, the Float X2 on my early production Slayer had one of those exploding air cans fitted to it that forced me to park the bike until that was sorted out. No, it never blew up while I had it.
Pinkbike's Take:
 | The Slayer is all about surprises. What I expected was a capable but routine enduro race bike with more brawn than brains; what I got was a bike that's not just capable but also exceedingly versatile. Yes, there's a lot of suspension and geometry on tap, enough for any racer's needs, but the Slayer's effective geo adjustment and remarkably good pedaling manners make it far more than just another enduro bike. - Mike Levy |
About the Reviewer
Age: 36 • Height: 5'10” • Inseam: 33" • Weight: 165lb • Industry affiliations / sponsors: None • Instagram: killed_by_death
Mike Levy spent most of the 90s and early 2000s racing downhill bikes and building ill-considered jumps in the woods of British Columbia before realizing that bikes could also be pedaled for hours on end to get to some pretty cool places. These days he spends most of his time doing exactly that, preferring to ride test bikes way out in the local hills rather than any bike park. Over ten years as a professional mechanic before making the move to Pinkbike means that his enthusiasm for two wheels extends beyond simply riding on them, and his appreciation for all things technical is an attribute that meshes nicely with his role of Technical Editor at Pinkbike.
Age: 36 • Height: 5'10” • Inseam: 33" • Weight: 165lb • Industry affiliations / sponsors: None • Instagram: killed_by_death
Mike Levy spent most of the 90s and early 2000s racing downhill bikes and building ill-considered jumps in the woods of British Columbia before realizing that bikes could also be pedaled for hours on end to get to some pretty cool places. These days he spends most of his time doing exactly that, preferring to ride test bikes way out in the local hills rather than any bike park. Over ten years as a professional mechanic before making the move to Pinkbike means that his enthusiasm for two wheels extends beyond simply riding on them, and his appreciation for all things technical is an attribute that meshes nicely with his role of Technical Editor at Pinkbike.
Author Info:
Member since Oct 18, 2005
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So: when will you be smart enough to release an aluminium version of your new Slayer????
Me like lots of my fellow-riders will never buy a carbon frame for the reasons we know.
I'm actually very disappointed that you didn't think about that.
May be I'll look for a Commençal framekit instead, for exemple...
I'm disappointed by RM.
Respect anyway.
www.norco.com/bikes/mountain/enduro/range-aluminum-7/range-a71
One thing I just can't get is why they build an enduro superbike with this much pedal kick-back (20 degrees @ 160 mm) and a trail bike (Altitude) with so low AS and PKB (5 degrees a @ 140 mm)...
I demoed an Altitude 2 years ago and found the suspension was a blast, tracking and climbing everything.
If I spend 5000 bucks for an enduro bike (I did), I really don't mind how good it pedal since I can fix that with shock magic (i.e. climb switch or others) but I want the suspension to be the more efficient and free doing its downhill duty, i.e. no compromise towards pedalling efficiency...
If somebody can explain this trend (big bikes with high AS and PKB, like Norco Range, Pivot Firebird, Yeti SB6c, etc...), I will be happy.
By the way, Norco seems to come back from this trend with the new Sight...
You are refering to the Element: Does this mean the new Altitude will be a 29er?
I would love an EWS Race machine but have no need of beeing bike park dh capable, this I have my DH rig for. I want a light, capable enduro race bike and I think the new Altitude could be it.
So when do you think can we expect the presentation of the new Altitude? Still this summer? Rally Edition?
Well Rocky is saying both bikes will compete in the EWS, that makes me confident that the new Altitude will be very capable nontheless.
the newer bikes like pivot and slayer are just even better.
I owned one of the first sight 650b (yellow one) which became my wife's bike set with a compact shimano 3x10 and it worked very well. Then I bought a range with 1x11 with 30 ring, and I never feel good onboard. I ride a lot of slow, techy, rooty trails and it definitively show the weakness of the suspension as it becomes literally blocked when I needed traction and steepens the head angle. Worst OTB count with this bike.
Then I bought a warden and my life changed...
What really bugs me with Rocky Mountain is that I have to go with an XL, same as Santa Cruz.. but then it's like driving a bus!
Come 2017 the pivot is now below the axle on RM's most popular models rebirth and from what I can tell their new answer to the bike that can do it all.
Would love to go have a chat with him and see what he says now about the axle position.
That all being said... Gotta admit, this is a fine looking bike and I would love to ride one!
Anyways been to many shops that don't have employees shitting on other companies. But hey maybe you are okay with it.
Of course I'm sure theres a lot of R&D going into it, and I find Trek suspensions to be especially supple (demoed a 2015 Remedy and Slash), but its not the OMG ANOTHERWORLD feeling to it as they make it out to be. I personally hated the amount of antisquat (I think it is, but could be something else, please correct me because I havent read anything about this anywhere); every time when I hammered the pedals with the shock full open, you did get a feeling of someone pedalling the opposite way against me. I prefer a "honest" design where it just bobs a bit when pedalling, and then you use a compression lever to turn the shock off. Rant over
I have only been at a trek dealer shop since 2014 so I can only comment from there and I can tell you that there has been very little anti squat designed into their suspension so I doubt that's what you were feeling. when the DRCV shock got the Re:Activ damper it really didn't make the bikes feel any better from the poop feel I felt the DRCV had always felt like. My hunch was you just felt it pedaled like poop because if you were anything like me, you couldn't figure out how to make the DRCV not feel numb, dead and squishy even after being told you could leave it in the open position.
Fast forward to 2017 and the Re:activ was put back into just a normal shock and trek did away with DRCV and f*ck me now I finally understand what they were raving about when it came to the regressive damper. I have never been a fan of how trek markets shit because honestly it just feels too much like a bloody infomercial . But yeah, go get on a new fuel or Remedy set that rear shock to about 25% sag and go try it out, it's pretty dang cool.
My trek fuel with a swapped out fork for a 150mm pike is the first time I have actually enjoyed riding a Trek, them engineers over there have finally nailed it I feel.
A few months ago I actually tested the top end fuel ex plus, the first time I tried a plus bike, and it was pretty amazing, did definetely feel much more capable than 130mm - it was a wet day so the tires were sliding around everywhere (plus is cool but nothing for me if was the only bike I own) , but the geometry, frame, suspension were pretty amazing and felt much better than the 2015 models.
I fully believe that with your longer travel fork it's an amazing do-it-all bike
Cheers!
i just bought a new radon swoop for exactly ONE THIRD of the price of a evenly specced slayer ..
Its not all about spec, i'd rather buy a better bike with less spec and a better frame as most parts like gears and brakes and wheels all work perfectly fine and can always be upgraded later, decent suspension is a must though.
its like with cars, yes you can buy a cheap car for reasonable money and i'm sure it will be a great but jump in one of the more premium brands and its just nicer, and people are willing to pay the premium for that.
and i am just wondering that people are willing and able to pay 4000-5000 bucks for nothing but image. i can see they obviously are.. but still.. i dont get it. i mean i would instantly buy such a good looking bike if the difference was 500 or maybe 1000 bucks but not 4500 more.
However... I do agree with you that RM pricing is off, since they are not a boutique brand like SC or Yeti. Frameset costs more than S-Works, Antidote, Trek 9.9. Not with these colors.
Also Yeti may be boutique but their prices are ludicrous, most boutique frames seem to have reached £3k these days which is bad enough but yeti have the cheek to charge £3,700 (4,600 usd) for a frame!!! who pays that
For some, that might be superior value for money (German brands usually), for some it might be the best aesthetics (Yeti, SC, Evil...), for some just the company being super rad etc (Transition), for some it might be having the most exclusive ride out there (top of the line Trek Slash or something) and so on. Bikes all tend to be so good these days (well, at least the ones I've been able to try out lately) that you can really base your decision on just about anything and end up with a bike you love to shred on.
and i wouldnt judge anyone for riding such a killer bike like the slayer.. instead i would say wow congrads for having the balls to spend so much money on a bike
my point was that i can not understand were the enormous prices (costs?) come from..
production costs cant be that much higher as most bikes come from the same factorys in asia. so where does the money go to?
@lkubica - if you want a poppy bike, add some SAG, LSC and decrease rebound... here, I saved you lots of money!
@everybody - pricing is what it is, most of us will never get our heads around why each bike costs what it costs. Just because RM costs this much doesn't mean they earn more per frame than Radon. That doesn't give them any medal though. Yeti or Intense may ask what they want, people will still buy it. Because it's a boutique brand. RM isn't. Price to performance is irrelevant for me here. Capra is such an amazing riding and looking bike that it's hard to motivate buying anything else in that segment.
"4000-5000 for nothing but image" isn't true when it come to mountainbikes, there are tangible differences and costs that can be justified.
However, for absolutely every industry regardless of it being an optional purchase or a complete necessity, fashion/image/rule of cool is a defining factor in most purchases, and that shit comes at a price.
You can feel as smug as you want pulling up to the lights in your economical, cheap, efficient VW Golf.... But you will always be jealous of the guy who pulls up next to you in a Ferrari. Not that you'd ever admit it "imagine the MPG that guy gets".
@maglor: While you do get mostly much better looking frames (and often newer geometries, features and so on) from more expensive companies, I would not say that its as in cars world, where you have really superior e.g. quality, handling, etc. Suspension kinematics is not so difficult that only brands which charge premium prices can really nail it
I do think Santa cruz isn't really boutique anymore though. they have grown a lot with a large range of alloy and carbon frames and full bikes now so they are heading towards the big boys really and becoming more mainstream
However, I will tell you what pisses me off when it comes to status. A thing that has always pissed me off, even over 10 year ago when I was riding a XC hardtail with Manitou Axel and V-brakes so it has nothing to do with me owning a second carbon frame now. It is about a bunch of whiny little soft dicks with raging minority complex, who believe that people should own bikes accordingly to their skill level. Twats who will look at your carbon bike and can barely help themselves from shouting in your face: you don't deserve this bike!!! You can hear those wankers in the line to the lift, with some older bike with new fork, maybe anodized stem and pedals, while tyres are totally worn out. They talk crap about someone with S-Works Demo ahead in the line. And it always ends with this sentence: and this X bike is crap anyways, If I had this money I would buy Y bike.
And it's not a fair comparison (discount), current vivid swoop is not 2250€ but 2800 and lower spec than the 2016, so equivalent to the 9.0 2016 is now 3000 in my eyes.
But I hear you, I bought the cheap 9.0 too
Now how this works in reality is I simply buy a one-season used Spec/Trek/Yeti/Intense instead of a brand new Canyon/YT.
Radon, Canyon, Yt,... They all have their own design departments and have been developing Bikes for years too... So that cant be the reason for the price.
Now, let's get back to the bike world. In 2008 I bought the Nomad, there were maybe 4 other bikes that were rideable in that segment: Int6.6, SXTrail, Turner 5.5, Giant ReignX. The rest was shite. It was garbage compared to what these 5-6 bikes were. They had terrible geo and were cracking like Konas. I paid 2000$ for the Nomad frame and shock. Complete bike costed 4000$ These days you get these 6k+ bikes and listen you spoiled bitches: you can buy YT, Radon, Canyon, Rose (that's a fkng name for a bike brand) and they are riding as well as those more expensive bikes, some even better. Then you go to second hand market and the vast majority of bikes are great. And reliable. In 2008, even by 2012 the stuff you bought second hand was terrible. Now?! You buy a second hand YT with all the bells and whistles for fkng nothing.
So even though Rocky Mountain has screwed up prices, please rethink if mountain biking gone wrong, because if you think so then you are a fkng lunatic.
Also, the budget brands sell direct. The bigger classic brands still use the dealer-model. This is a big part of where the price difference comes from.
Finally, the bigger brands have fully-featured customer service. They have men on the ground (your LBS). Again, tell stories about your friend's friend's 2005 Enduro that broke and how Specialized wouldn't return his call, but the fact remains that companies like Specialized, Trek, Giant, SC...etc...stand behind their product. Break one of their frames and all you have to do is walk into the local dealer with a receipt and you'll have a brand new frame in a week or two. Break a YT and prepare to sit for a couple months while you wait for proof-of-purchase emails, cross-continental shipping, and possibly even worse - the good 'ole "out-of-stock" excuse.
Beating a dead horse for the billionth time, but when so many don't seem to recognize a dead horse when they see one...
To compare to motorbikes you wouldn't be upset at how expensive moto gp or world superbikes are, you'd be happy that you can buy a superbike based on them and using all the tech for a comparative bargain.
Just at third of price.
R&D/warranty definitely plays it's part though which is why to this day folk are paying loadsa coin for a SC.
Check out Raoul Lueschers youtube and instagram
www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZbg5hCRyvs&t=1695s
www.instagram.com/luescher_teknik
I can only tell you that I have met at least 10 times as many whiny btches, butthurt over not being able to afford a high end bike, and feeling inferior for no fkng reason, than owners of high end bikes looking down on people. At least in gravity part of MTB. I may dig myself a hole here, since I know many of my "locals" read it, but when I come with my bike to any sort of large group ride, some people scan me and my bike the hideous way that not a single properly rich dude ever had when I've been leaving my kids at the daycare. And there are people leaving their kids with Bentleys while I look like some homeless dude in rain uniform shuttling kids in an old baby carrier. I will paraphrase Billy Connolly - poor people are fun, rich people are fun, it is the middle wannabies that suck and ruin it for everybody.
Not saying it's a bad thing...but when you zoom out and really think about it, yeah it's crazy.
I have no problem with what ever other people ride/ drive etc. I ride regularly with Santa Cruz owners they're friends in fact. But I just can't personally justify the cost of some bikes when I can get one that performs great for half the money, but maybe that's my bad it's got nothing to do with my income.
I prefer to have more than one decent bike and not put all my eggs in one basket.
Also, a big decision in my purchase was the brands customer service reputation - dropping a much as I did on a bike I need to know I'm likely to be supported if something goes wrong. I've a friend who has had a Santa Cruz for a few years - he's had an excellent service from them including many free bearings. I'm not rich so that stuff means a lot to me and I considered them. I genuinely believe that the online brands CS is catching up quickly though, so my next purchase may be much harder!
Oh, and whilst that Radon looks incredible I think that this bike will be a slightly better all rounder - I presume the carbon frame means it is a little lighter and the suspension adjustment means that you would be far happier pedalling it around non-lift serviced terrain. That may mean the RM effectively folks the role of two bikes? Saying that I'd be getting the Radon if I spent all my time in lift serviced terrain...
Kind of like a uniform, skinny jeans or a certain hairstyle. A community of communion.
I agree with dark star though. Buy what you want, to hell with what anyone thinks.
If all anyone cared about was the cheapest possible bike most of these companies would be out of business.
If you extend that cheapness mentality to the rest of life, everyone would shop at Walmart, eat at McDonalds, and we wouldn't have any nice, original, or quality stuff. We'd all have cheap shit.
I have a RMB and I love it. Maybe I payed more then basement price for a trail bike. Maybe I could have bought a Mongoose from Walmart instead. Maybe I still can't ride as fast I think I can. But f*ck it, I freaking love the ride.
He's quite correct when he says that you spend a lot of time on here being a self opiniated troll which is why I originally joked about you swallowing cum, it was only a joke, sucks it up and take what you continually dish out.
Nobody cares what I or you ride or what they cost ! Nor should they. Someone has to buy the very top bikes but equally someone has to buy the bread and butter, you realise that as well as I do.
I hope for those folk out there that crave the very best that however they pay the price, either savings, accident payout or hard earned decent salary that their choice is as good as they'd hoped.
Your right I do like a bargain, I was raised in post war Britain, it's a state of mind brought about by personal circumstances.
However it wouldn't stop me buying any bike I wanted because I'm obsessed apparently. The most recent is a Genesis tarn 20 2017 model which I'm happy to say I received a 20 % discount on !!
It's a great bike.
Plus most people are proud of their rides and want to share them with others. Also it's useful to see what others have done with the same bike as you.
I understand why people buy Yeti as a bike is bought with the heart and they are beautiful, i just feel Yeti is taking the piss a bit and taking advantage of their image by charging what they like.
I was raised in post communist Poland. A country ravaged up to this day with minority complex, of an empire that disappeared from the map of the world and became Gods geographical joke. So excuse me for being disgusted with notions of minority complex (like Cefn mentioning daddy buying sht) as well as getting on a high moral ground. I've seen too much of this sht, among people wanting money and power. I also spent time working for pennies as a teenager, in my friends fathers workshop, where people were coming in wanting car repair for free. I've heard enough shit. We all want to make living, price never reflects the worth of a product/service.
I'm doing the Megavalanche on it this year before I really am too old !!
I am glad they exist. there is a lot of fun on overpassing any of the two and seeing their rationalizations later. although the expensive bike guy is usually more fun to humilliate on the trail.
an anecdote: one time I went out with my usual riding buddy and he brought along his accountant he had a s works hardtail epic. I was on my ripley and my buddy on a trek fuel although we did a pretty mellow xc course, and the epic was the best tool for the job we ended up waiting for the guy on top and down the hill. we finished our loop at an lbs that is a trek dealer and the guy insisted that the reason we have to wait for him is because he did not had a rear suspension. us being at a better fitness level definitely did not registered in his brain so he took out his credit card and bought right there a trek fuel 9.9 so yeah for the most part the guys spending above 7k on a bike are not really puting a hole on their pockets and they are the actual target demographic.
also WAKI I own a canyon xc hardtail now does that means you hate me?
Seriously though we need the guys and gals buying the expensive bikes as these bike push the development of the sport in the right direction. Think of all the mega bikes of years gone and the lessons we have learned from them. If no one was buying them we would all be on rigid steel hardtails.
not to mention motorbikes are sold in much larger numbers driving the price down further and have had alot more development time put into them to bring even more tech to a low price.
1. Not all German bike companies are great, but some definitely are. I hold them in higher regard than those boutique North American brands. And not because of carbon. Companies like Liteville and Nicolai make some great bikes out of aluminium and I see no need for carbon. Got to love Alutech and Solid too.
2. @WAKIdesigns People walk up to you and actually scream in your face that you don't deserve your bike. Really, aren't you imagining things? Is that common practice over there where you ride. People stop, walk up to people and start screaming stuff like that? "Sorry ma'am, that cellphone you're holding right now? You don't deserve that". Odd place. If something like that would happen to me, I'd laugh my ass off.
3. Interesting to see people here take particular pride in overtaking people on more expensive gear. To be honest I wouldn't even know what my bike is worth. It's assembled of gear gathered and replaced over the course of well over a decade. I'd be impressed if someone would overtake me and take a glance and do the calculations. It could be anywhere between 1500 and 2500 and then I might still be 1000 euros off in either direction. And overtaking, what's it for? On a non technical section I'm not inspired so if someone wants to ride past me they're welcome. If I spot someone slower than me on a non technical section I sometimes stop and wait. So that I can then enjoy that section even more. Would hate to overtake someone there, possibly scaring that person or going off-trail causing unnecessary damage. Yes, I'd make a horrible racer. So you rider on a cheaper bike, you're so smug about overtaking me or at least not be overtaken by me? Enjoy your day.
Do Specialized, Trek, Santa Cruz, Intense, and their peers build "better" bikes than Canyon, YT, and their peers? Yes. It's not an opinion, it's an objective evaluation. I'm talking about companies that have 30+ years of experience building the best bikes in the business compared to upstarts trying to get established in a huge market. The big names have decades of racing and development experience compared to the upstarts who are just now getting their teams together. The big names have a network of dedicated dealers, many of whom are in the neighborhoods of their customers, compared to the upstarts who have call centers. This is why the big names can charge 2x as much as the upstarts and still sell MORE BIKES. It's not a conspiracy, it's not stupidity, it's called reputation.
Now does that make Canyon and YT products "bad"? Not at all. I'd argue that they provide a fantastic product for the price they charge. But trying to say that a YT is an equivalent bike to a Trek/Specialized/SC is just silly. Now i'll give you this - in 10 years, if they are still around, i'll be willing to entertain the idea.
Their engineers are well up to the job of matching Trek and Specialized for quality and function.
You may not be able to accept it but that doesn't make it so.
German engineering. Hahaha, there's been a huge sht storm on German Pinkbike under article about Eagle where Germans themselves were saying that Deutchesengenerungskonst is meaningless bullsht useful for marketing purposes only. Many took time to argue in English so that "the world" can see they don't subscribe under such bollocks. I told them to chill out, and showed them DIrt's tour in Treks factory, shining with American Nationalism, flags everywhere, talkign about Made in US a lot. If this was an article about Syntace with German flags everywhere they'd be accused of bringing back nazism. Oh well... the patriotic double standards...
I'm surprised to see that the your experience with people riding expensive gear is so different from mine. I've been working a side job in a bike shop for a couple of years during my study. It wasn't necessarily the ideal shop for me as the mountainbike specific stuff was limited. But obviously it is nice having bikes around and I could get good deals on gear. But we were special in a way because we welded up custom steel frames or sent custom geometry up to Litespeed to weld up a custom titanium frame for customers. Obviously this was higher end stuff. People traveling the world on their Rohloff equipped steel traveler bike with very specific demands. They could agonize over geometry, colour, logos. So it was mostly road bikes and traveler bikes. And you can be pretty sure they put proper thought into it. They came one weekend, agonized during the week, came back the next to make adjustments. Many of these people are in their late thirties, early forties. People who have been avid cyclists in their early years, had to cut back when they started to work, buy a house and get young children. And then they got more money and more time again. And they got more conscious about what the want exactly and want to make every ride count. Not be let down by a cheap component, tool or garment. I get that. I had a customer who came to pick up a road bike, about 10k or 11k (euros). A dentist indeed. Custom geometry titanium frame and just the parts for the wheels because he enjoyed lacing them up himself. He said he sure could enjoy himself on a 3000 euro bike and spend the 7000 euro more on a higher spec car. But the car wouldn't give him more joy, the bike would, for years to come. So when you write about dentists like you know them all you need to know you're full of shit yourself. People who spend more money on a bike do so because they care and like to ride. And because they have the money available they'd rather just get it from the shop and go riding rather than waste their time on the internet looking for the best deals. But when the bike is finished they're just going to ride the hell out of it, for years. You don't buy a custom geometry steel or titanium frame to replace it next year. You want to buy something and then be done with it.
I feel I'm shifting in this category as well now. I'm 37 now, finished most of the bigger construction jobs in and around the new house, the girls are 5 and 6 years old and are doing great and I can get a couple of rides on the mountainbike every week. My frames are about 10 years (Cannondale Prophet fully) and 9 years (DMR Switchback steel hardtail) now and they were kind of a compromise when I built them. Because I really like my top tube low I got a relatively short frame. Good fun still, but a compromise. Nowadays I can get the bike that suits me, long enough and still low. I've saved up and if I'd get something now, it'd be the Kingdom Vendetta 2, raw. I like the geometry, tire clearance and I like that it's titanium and the looks of the raw welds. It isn't cheap either. But if I'd get anything else, I'd still be thinking about that bike. And I'll be riding the bike for a long time. So it'd better get it right. Now, imagine you'd meet me, see my bike. You don't know me, but the bike is expensive. So I'm a dentist, too much money, bought the frame in a heartbeat? This may go for cellphones, smartwatches, maybe cars even. But not something that's a passion, like a bike. People buy it because they like riding. More than wasting time on the internet shopping for deals. I used to ride with a friend on a titanium fully. And he sure had skills and a passion for riding. My neighbour is a doctor, rides a Liteville. I don't think he has the experience that anyone looks down on him either. I don't know what's wrong with the places you people go.
If the Germans are embarrassed about their own abilities it's their loss.
Any pride in being English was put down here too and probably a reason Orange bikes do well here as owners feel like their doing their bit despite better designs being available.
As you can probably guess, that's a big reason why we now have a psycho in charge.
And indeed riding an Orange would be something I'd be quite proud and happy about. Personally for that kind of money I'd be even more attracted by Starling, but Orange is still quite cool. I wouldn't dare to call Starling an upstart, not on par with what an established brand like Orange has to offer.
There are clueless rich guys out there, but then there are also enthusiast rich guys who both know bikes and can afford them.
We are now however dangerously off bikes.
@TheRaven: Poland also has psychos in charge recently, who won elections by playing on nationalism disguised as patriotism. It just seems to be in fashion right now. Thank you anti-globalist 20-40 year olds. You bunch of useful idiots with some of the worst of nationalists as troopers on your "peaceful" demonstrations - you weren't talking about that in your highly moralized Marxist greenie bullcrap, parasiting on every single event like Occupy wallstreet. I just wonder, when relative balance will be in fashion? Is it even possible?
@vinay - I do find value in stuff like my Antidote being made in Poland. But that's because these are people I can relate to, from a place I can relate to, because that's an investment in future jobs market, leaving money in the local economy. And because the product is ace. I do not attach any nationalistic idea to it. Why would I paint it up, instead of appreciating the reality? I'm not making Poland great again by giving money to them instead of to Chinese or Taiwanese citizens, whose work quality I have absolutely nothing against. They are just... out there, while i can visit Anti guys or Orange or Unno, whatever. Hope did bite me though, and I ain't going to shut up about it just because they are close. And I feel many do blindly praise some companies just because it's made localy - and I believe you can sense it by aggression of people defending them, like it is with Hope... DT-Swiss or Mavic - awesome stuff made in Europe, not costing more than Asian made stuff, like ZTR or WTB. Sorry for being self-centered here, but I honestly wish more people thought this way: find duality to discover the danger of polarity - which is hard enough - then go one step further and search for common singularities in particular set of circumstances. Polarity always requires narrowing vision and nitpicking facts. Polarity always requires an enemy to justify ones position. POlarity allows you to sit in one place and feel comfy among friends. Singularity requires you to travel on both sides of equator. That means leaving some friends behind and making friends with enemies.
YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED
The thing is that European and North American produce is quickly considered the elite stuff. Yes, Hope is top level stuff. But it doesn't necessarily have to be like that. Until recently, all Magura stuff was being produced in their plant in tiny Bad Urach. Service and distribution eventually shifted to Laichingen, not far from there. But Magura produces for the general cyclist. Top level competition components but also decent stuff for new riders. It is doable. But we're suckers for the lowest price apparently so eventually some production moved to Asia. Not just for price though. They found it hard to cater in time for the North American and Australian market so that's why they initially opened a plant in Asia.
Another interesting company is Tacx. Maybe not the most exciting until I got the opportunity to visit them. My dealer (where I worked at the time) was one of their bigger ones and we were invited for a factory visit (20km from where I lived) and the see their new line up. I was impressed they do all in house. Koos (founder) does management, the son did development and prototyping, the daughter the branding, making all those moodboards etc. So all (software) development, production (and pre-production like mould making) and distribution was done in house. That's impressive because they actually compete with the cheap Asian stuff that's already good enough for the home mechanic. Sure not everyone there is a skilled craftsperson like we associate those at Hope with, but then again not everyone can possibly that skilled. Rather see those people still have a job over here. When you buy one of their trainers, what you're getting is a box with a partly assembled trainer and a bag with loose parts. Some may complain they expect a complete and finished product. But that's simply not possible at that price point over here. What do you rather have. A product assembled in a noisy Chinese assembly hall under stressful conditions. Or do you rather brew yourself a cup of tea, play your favourite tune, drop on the couch and take fifteen minutes to assemble your new product?
@fartymarty That Starling would stand out to me more than any flashy carbon bike ever could. I'm sure it will be an amazing ride. Enjoy!
Once again, that doesn't meant that no one should be buying YT. Brands like YT exist because there is a place for them, and even I agree that they are very important to our sport. With the big name price tags continually rising, YT's opportunities are only going to grow.
So if you are a YT owner, don't waste your time trying to justify your purchase. You don't have to. Any rider who's not a complete d-bag is going to respect you for your choice. We all have budgets, and even those of us who can afford the big money bikes can remember a time when we couldn't.
Shame we've been riding all these years thinking we know something when really we are clueless without you.
For the shock specifications can you give the specification of the shock itself ? not the rear weel travel
Maybe here it's 230x65mm
Adjustable geometry might not seem great for an individual (I.e. most people will leave it in one setting) but it does mean that one model of bike can appeal to two different types of rider (one might always leave in the steep setting and the other in slack) and the manufacturer doesn't need to produce another model of bike to fill the gap in their range.
anywas, @mikelevy your are 177cm height, i am 180cm. i loved the large. was the large not just a bit to long for you?
My thoughts was " if RM follows the maiden lines to design the slayer it's gonna be a sick bike". And now that... tiny and hidden pivots... looks weak and bearing replacement must be a pain in the ass. Seems like a sleek looking bike is the most important for enduro riders.
The slackest and steepest geo settings are shown, are the other 2 positions equally spread thought the range? Reach seems very short (on the XL end) and I'm surprised it doesn't change with frame size...
www.bikepedia.com/QuickBike/ImageZoom.aspx?itemid=36969&if=2002%20Specialized%20Stumpjumper%20M4%20Comp.jpg
Seriously, though, it's a beautiful bike. I liked the color scheme back in 2002, and I like it now. Not sure what I think about the 170mm forks and all the adjustable geometry. Seems a little much for me. I'd probably set it in the steepest setting like @mikelevy says and forget it. If you were a serious racer, though, I can see the advantages.
The two settings you referenced are the slackest and steepest. Did you test out either if the middle settings? If so, what were your impressions?
Until we stop buying crap products at ridiculous prices the industry wheels will keep turning and we will all be partially responsible because we give in to the problem instead of solutions.#mirror
That's why.
In the end you can have 2 quite different setups but giving same performance just in varied ways.
Sorry your older dual position sucked balls in performance. Have you ridden a 2016 or newer fox talas? It has less o-rings than the float does and feels damn good.
Don't bag dual position when you haven't kept up with the times and don't bag it because you have become accostumed to shitty slacked geometry for climbing.
@viatch I've been asking fox for years to come out with a 170mm dual position and they have yet to listen...
Haven't had a travel adjust fork since 08' just for that reason.
Just wondering on the price, the Rocky website has the 790msl at 8800 and the 770 msl at7000. Is the price changing or is it a typo in the review?
Sure, Giant will still be cheaper than a Rocky Mountain but...it is a Giant! I prefer to pay a little extra to have a Rocky Mountain over a Giant, Specialized, etc. To each their own.
Bicycle prices have Zero relation to their value.
Braaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaapppt
A bicycle is super simple in parts and tech. compared to motorcycles, yet the prices for bicycles is getting stupid.
The bicycle industry has done a great job marketing to create a need, and keep it moving in different directions to sell bikes, fact is you could probably throw a blanket over the top 10 bikes and you would be splitting hairs to say which is better.
I"m saying they are snowing us on value, some will say its what the market will bear, well that works for a while till the bikes get so good that there is no need to ride an $8000 bike when the $6,000 is just as good.
And that time is almost here, like XT and XTR
This topic is interesting to me because I'm thinking of getting back into dirt bikes. I've been shopping and hitting the forums and I just can't believe how much work a MX bike needs to keep going. Honestly it's keeping me away from pulling the trigger.