[Updated with Official Response] Stanton Bikes Calls Administrators, Up For Sale

 I know you did your best to get the word out for them on their build, and ride quality. The bike biz is not easy...been there...done that.

 I just received my Stanton Sherpa frame on Monday. Absolutely blown away by the quality of this bike. Very sad to hear this news. Now need to figure out how to source some space derailleur hangers...

 @mtblol: I ride a Stanton. I sourced spare hanger from Spain I think. They are the same as Nordest bikes use. Keep on to your Stanton,that love will grow

 @mtblol: Shit... such a sad new, knowing how good their bikes are (ride a Switchback for 6 years) and how nice Dan and the staff are...
... and yeah: have to check this derailleur hanger issue 'cos I don't have any spare one since the beginning :-/

 @mtblol: I would buy some spares from Stanton. It sounds like they're still trading for the time being

 This news worries me indeed. You'd say now that the progress in technology and geometry for mountainbikes has settled, the days of fast fashion are over and people are more willing to invest in a bike they're going to hold onto for a good few years. Which is where steel bikes like these make a lot of sense (as such brands are actually willing to repair your frame if something goes wrong). Even though I've never ridden any of their bikes (just happen to ride a different British steel frame), their stuff makes a lot of sense and I hope they'll make it through this.

 @tom666: they now essentially trade under the eye of the administrator - it will be determined as to if they business can be saved or stock liquidated and the main creditors re-paid.

If nobody buys it Stanton is toast - massive shame.

 @vinay: I kept looking at the frames but always something put me off. They always seemed one step behind in the geo game. Fine if your market is a traditional hardtail rider, but thats a pretty poulated market and tough to sell and £800 frame that doesnt offer anything different than someone elses older model.

 @vinay: that’s the problem. Their bikes don’t break. My kids got a third hand switchback from 2015 he keeps jumping back on after breaking frames and they just keep going. All the clear coats come off and it looks like rat rod with all the surface rust.

 @justanotherusername: planet x will probly have a cheque ready

 @Compositepro: I dont dislike PX but eeeeewww.

 @dickyelsdon : Being "behind" or "ahead" of something seems a bit of a one dimensional way of thinking. What ahead nowadays? Short chainstays or long? Are you more ahead if you mount bigger wheels or if you manage to get a lower top tube? I think (or maybe just like to think) that most of these brands started with a vision of how a bike should be, couldn't find that on the market hence created their own gear. What happened in the mean time. Did others jump on "your" train or was it you who drifted off to what others are doing? You're never the only one who wants something so if you feel others aren't "getting it", get the word out there. Cotic, which I consider a direct competitor of theirs (some frame production in the UK, similar purposes for their bikes etc) makes sure they have an article published on Pinkbike whenever they release a product, have their bike tested in grouptests (on Enduro-mtb.com/en). BTR on the other hand may be a bit more silent yet they offer so many custom features that customers know that they'll likely be able to make a bike that fits their demands. Stanton is somewhere in no-mans land. I'm on their mailing list but if you aren't, chances are you'd forget they're there and you may not even know what is special about their stuff.

@thenotoriousmic : Not sure whether that's a problem. Do people who break the frame of a certain manufacturer usually buy a new one from them? I think that if I would break a frame too soon, I'd get something new from someone else. You may get the customer on a new frame under warranty, but you're not going to make money that way. My previous frame is a DMR I bought back in 2008 or so. My daughter rides it now. My BMX (Stolen) is from 2004. My BTR is from 2018 and I expect to ride it for decades. Why not? It is odd to expect a frame to last only a few years. Unless you're trading durability for some kind of "competitive advantage" (which racers typically do), your bike should be up to the kind of use you throw at it. Yes fatigue is going to end the fun at some point, but not within a few years of use.

Not sure about Planet X or On One really. They sell through their own website so trying to sell a UK made Stanton alongside a On One that goes for a fraction of the cost is going to be a challenge. I'd say let just PON buy them. They seem to let brands what they want. If they can continue to sell carbon Santa Cruz bikes, people will surely buy steel Stanton bikes.

 @vinay: it’s not a problem for me but if your manufacturer of steel mountain bikes that don’t break then you might struggle. Carbon and Alloys will need replacing but as long as it’s free from corrosion a steel frame might last indefinitely.

 It looks like the co-director of Stanton is owed a rather large sum of money - £721k infact (bottom of the page on companies house filed accounts)

Pure speculation, but I would imagine he may have something to do with calling in the administrators.

 them or crc...

 @zyoungson: that’s absolute nonsense - steel has a fatigue limit, aluminium doesn’t.

 @vinay: Yeah i agree, I was just suggesting if you have a new bike and are looking for something different one aspect is geo/sizing, if its not the same as where the industry trends are going then that might put people off. It put me off (at 6ft4 a 500mm reach is my ideal, they are not there and their seat tubes are still old school long). Obviously people who know of stanton will have seen 'cutting edge geo' isnt thier choice of target, it was ride feel and 'specialness' you got from their colours and custom spray options. However sounds like (from the update) they may have been doing ok, but have suffered from investor issues not sales.

 @justanotherusername: I nonsense your nonsense … ffs they both have a fatigue limit, you need to go take metrology class again.

 @NZRalphy: why would he be taking metrology class ? that is the study of measurement , metallurgy on the other hand , which it looks like you missed in your internet education is the study of materials and quite often their properties, even a cursory glance at the first google search will inform the simplest inter-idiot who is correct and who is wrong here providing they understand what an s/n curve is , that flat portion there en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatigue_limit is the clue poppet

 @zyoungson: not if it’s used within its limits and those limits are pretty extreme like a coil spring compressing and decompressing for years on end or a set of odyssey race forks that people have got decades out of without cracking or bending.

 @NZRalphy: I had a pretty stressful day today but this post cheered me right up, cheers!

 @lenniDK:

Which model Stanton do you have? I also need spare hangers.

 @Compositepro: Nah, but they'll definitely have thought about sticking in an order to their taiwanese suppliers for something that looks exactly like a Switchback, with a funny name

 @Northwind: The sick bikes stuff they sell are the actual stuff sick bikes ordered - they took the party manufactured order on when Jordan inevitably exploded as they had actually acted as a go between between him and the factory.

 @dickyelsdon: Yeah, but sometimes you just need to pick something that's close to what you want and go for the custom geometry option. My bike is a BTR Ranger size large for 26" wheels, but I went for a 400mm seattube (which usually goes on size small) so that both the saddle as well as the top tube could be lower. Other custom options like the ISCG05 tabs etc were free to choose at the time. I'm super happy with how the frame turned out. So if you know what you want, go for it and don't compromise. Because otherwise you'll still find yourself looking for the next thing when you've just received what you paid for. For a full suspension bike I might look at a Starling bike at some point as they also have loads of custom options (and their V3 bikes are also more versatile without any custom choices). The thing that always puts me off buying more bikes is of course that two bikes don't imply you'll be riding twice as much. Better to get something versatile and swap out some components for different purposes. But yeah, Starling is a great one for that now (with their V3 frames) and they might have something up your street too.

 @justanotherusername: That as true initially, they bought the Merino bikes. But now there's a range of other "sick-derived" frames they do like the Titus ti frame

 @Northwind: nah nothing to do with Marino.

Brant / PX gave their frame contact in Taiwan to Sick / told the contact Sick were Ok to work with.

Sick exploded and PX as a result bought the batch the manufacturer started to make - as such the PX frames are the actual exact frames Sick ordered, just renamed.

 The Sick bikes were made by Marino. That was part of the whole explosion of Sick- Marino went public when they didn't get paid, while Sick were still spinning lies about "difficulty onshoring" and "frames on the way"

www.pinkbike.com/news/sick-bicycles-manufacturer-selling-off-sick-branded-frames-claiming-lack-of-payment.html

 @justanotherusername:Oh no wait I'm wrong, you're right. It's two separate things, Marino had their stock but the Hello Dave came from Taiwan, I'd wrongly assumed that it was all one thing but actually Sick had failed to pay off 2 suppliers not just one.

 @mtblol: I'm actually in the process of starting up a little side-hustle where I take 3D scans of hangars from older bikes and build an inventory of 3D models that I can print out of stainless steel. A little heavier than aluminum but I'm using 316L that has the right tensile strength to bend before a derailleur breaks and can be bent back more often than aluminum ones.

 @cueTIP: The only issue is the hangar is supposed to be a sacrificial, replaceable component to prevent bending the frame. 316 is way stronger than an aluminium or carbon frame - so make sure you design in a failure point

 @tom666: 316 is significantly more likely to bend than aluminum. Yield strength for 6061-T6 (most commonly used in hangars) is 290MPa. 316L is 240MPa.

 @cueTIP: For all alloys, a good measure of their strength is the "elastic modulus" (sometimes called "Young's modulus"), which is the slope of the straight portion of the stress-strain curve from zero stress up to the point of plastic yielding. In general, aluminum and its alloys have a modulus of about 10,000,000 psi and low-alloy / plain-carbon steels have a modulus of about 30,000,000 psi. Hence, to obtain the same "absolute tensile strength" from an aluminum component as from a steel component would require the aluminum component to be roughly three times the cross section.

 @tom666: Don't mix up strength and stiffness. A stiffer material isn't necessarily stronger.

 @vinay: Thanks for stressing this fundamental point that most people still don't seem to understand.

 @vinay: Steel is a lot stronger than aluminium guys. I can't believe we're even arguing this. Aluminium is less dense and has a better strength to weight ratio so a 3kg alu frame will likely be stronger than an equivalent weight steel frame because you can use 2-3x as much aluminium of it for the same weight. But if we're talking about producing a part of a fixed volume from both materials, such as a mech hangar, the steel will be like two to three times as heavy and twice as strong

 @tom666: Don't believe it as we aren't arguing that. Youngs modulus doesn't really change for a material (210GPa for steel, 70GPa for aluminium) but ultimate strength, yield strength etc can vary a lot between alloys, heat treatments etc. There are aluminium alloys that can easily be way stronger than some steel alloys (even for the volume, let alone for the weight). But there are some supersteels that outperform any aluminium alloy, even for the same weight. It is good to compare material properties in relation to another. That can be volume, weight, price etc. Very often one of these is limited. Sometimes weight needs to be low, other times the available space is limited. Michael Ashby developed a nice tool to help you with comparisons. You may like to study his book "Material Selection for Mechanical Design" but he has other books too and there is even software.

The new point you brought up is questionable though. A rear mech hanger isn't a fixed volume. You can make it thinner, you can make it ribbed for stiffness depending on your chosen production process...

For context of this discussion, both my frame as well as my replaceable hanger are made out of steel. I've got a fully too, but the 2007 Saint mech (no rapid rise) is mounted to the axle .

 @tom666: "Steel is a lot stronger than aluminium guys. I can't believe we're even arguing this"

ooooh i reckon i could constructively argue against this

 @vinay: this was my angle you pit ordanance grade or even the aerospace alloys in certain tempers against low carbon steels or even some of the european iso norm grades for 4130 and spec equivalents and your into 10-15 Mpa differences you start taking ruling section and origin into account (, plate ,extrusion ,round) and then that too can cause considerable deviation from the max figures you may get from a material,

 @vinay: Mech hangars are made of shite grade Chinesium - and intentionally so because they sell for £10-15 retail and because they're designed to break and be replaceable. If you make it from 316 it will be too strong and your derailleur or frame will break before the hangar does and it has failed at it's job. Machining a mech hanger from an aerospace grade alloy would have the same effect - too strong and no longer acts as a sacrificial part like it is meant to.

 Designing in a failure point would be the way to do it if working with 316

 for ref www.utc.fr/~hagegebe/UV/MQ12/CORRECTIONS_TD/%5BASHBY99%5D%20-%20Materials%20Selection%20In%20Mechanical%20Design%202Ed.pdf

 Sorry, I completely lost track of what we're discussing here. Use them as my response wherever you see fit. Steel has a higher Youngs modulus than aluminium. Either can have a higher yield strength and either can have a higher ulitmate strength, but typically it is steel that has that. These are all material properties. More material can make a structure stronger, stiffer and all that and in case of bending loads, shape (moment of inertia) is a factor too. Hangers (or breaker bolts in case of Syntace) are designed to give up before the mech and/or frame does. My experience is that this works like that indeed. My first frame was aluminium with an aluminium hanger. The hanger broke, the mech traveled along with the chain and crashed into the front mech. All drive side spokes were damaged, chain and both mechs were broken. Yay. I'd rather see just the mech give up. On my current frame, I don't see how my steel hanger could possibly damage my steel frame. The steel frames I had before that had a non-replaceable hanger that could be bent back as they don't fatigue as quickly as the aluminium ones do. I don't have more to say than this so cheers.

 @philoniousmonk: slackline gen2. That are the jones with 3 little boltholes

 @philoniousmonk: nordestcycles.com/en/product/dropouts

 @justanotherusername: me too! My experience with them was a nightmare of delays and some incredible excuses, one after another. i took my money elsewhere, and i bet my experience with them isn't unusual...

 @Mntneer: different terminology that your aren't familiar with with doesn't necessarily make it gibberish; it sounds completely normal to UK/AU/NZ ears

 @gnarlysipes: I’ve had to stop telling my daughter that the other kids in her class have very Utah names. I was becoming worried it would make it back to the parents. But wtf, let’s take two names and put them in a hydraulic press and see how badly we can f*ck them up.

 @gnarlysipes: I get your point, but by that reasoning everything that isn't known and understood to you is gibberish.

I guess it depends on your view of the universe as to what you apply that label to... I don't know all that much about quantum physics, but I don't deride it as "gibberish".

 @49thbiker: Well ya know, when you and all your parishoners have 15 children per couple, you start running out of 'conventional' names fast....

 @gnarlysipes: bro in Utah that name is spelled Kighsunh. Land of the effed up names and overwrought spellings.

 @gnarlysipes: unless you really know what you more dealing with the terms you think you understand are the most dangerous.

 any Jathan's in the house?

 @devlincc: You mean Jathan's in the houthe?

 @49thbiker:

 @jammf: you basically described the way Americans think. If it ain't their way it is non-sense and should be conformed to their way, which is the only proper way, right ? lol.

 @49thbiker: lived in SLC for 7 years and can confirm.

 @Balgaroth: do they think?

 @gnarlysipes: Thing is, calling something “gibberish” is subjectively negative and sends that negativity outwards. A more neutral (and therefore less divisive - oh the times we live in…) phrasing might have been found.
Not saying the poster can’t speak their mind, just trying to highlight how choice of words/language can snowball quite quickly - and no, it’s not just about being ‘too sensitive’.

Feel for Stanton though, hope they pull through bankruptcy/administration if possible.

 @Monkeyass: No. We prefer generalizations to thinking. Way more upvotes.

 Basically means they owe money to people and cannot repay the debt, those people have gone to court to get their money back , an administrator is appointed by the court to protect the interests of the creditors .It is sometimes the creditor that takes action not the company but companies can and do the responsible thing also if an informal arangment cannot be arrived at, id probably liken it more to some aspects of chapter 13 bankruptcy , Bankruptcy in the UK isnt like it is in the US , administration will allow a company to trade out of a poor position and realise money to pay off creditors rather than cut off its head and sell the body parts for pennys in the pound as outright bankruptcy would.

 @ATXZJ: ex mormon GF “jayneanne”

 @emptybe-er: you can spell it with a hyphen or without, both are correct

 Meh

 just a gentle reminder that the entire US language and legal system is based on the British version. Just because you basterdised it beyond the point of recognition doesn't mean its gibberish.

 @devlincc: My wife is named Jerika lol.

 @pargolf8: I automatically visualized this in "Live Laugh Love" font.

 @davemays: at least it rhymes with america

 @Mntneer: you cant say aluminium right.

 @Mntneer: What do you mean you people?

 @Balgaroth: Well, when our government terrorizes (from war to financial manipulation) every country it disagrees with, then yes it tends to trickle down to the citizens. So essentially, it's the American way, or no way.

 @takeiteasyridehard: Lakreesha and D'evonte agree.

 @thewanderingtramp: Thank you for clarifying! I suspected that was the case, but have not heard that terminology before. BTW, IMO, calling something "gibberish" doesn't necessarily mean it's "bad" or "makes no logical sense" to the person saying it. Case in point, I often refer to things as gibberish *to me* because *I* don't understand them. It's more a knock against myself than the topic at hand. However, in text it's often very difficult to express one's self effectively without it being taken the wrong way....which is what I suspect may have happened here.

Anyway, back on topic, it pains me to see Stanton going through this and I hope they don't go away. I love my Sherpa, but it's a bit small for me (so will be for sale) and I was really hoping to one day replace it with a larger version.

 @Mntneer: that's not true, and you're tone only reaffirms stereotypes about American thinking.

I think what you mean to say is "going under administration, means nothing to people who have a loose grip on matters concerning bankruptcy and administration". Administration is a very common term, and while not the same as Bankruptcy per se, they're two solutions to the same problem each devised for its own legal system.

 @jammf:

From one member of the commonwealth to another (I'm a Canuck in the USofA)... You seem concerned that Mntneer is passing a value judgement on the King's English, but maybe it's you?

Perhaps "gibberish" doesn't carry the same negative connotation where he/she is from that it does for you? It does after all have multiple meanings (carrying different connotations) itself.

www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gibberish.

And yeah, "falling into administration" could certainly qualify as "technical or esoteric".

 @Balgaroth: Yup. Kinda the same way the English and the French thought when they had their time in the sun. Whatever the dominant world power is at the time.
Soon it will be whatever the Chinese think.

 @Mntneer:

Yikes... can't believe I defended you. Very aggressive. You could have come at this in a much more tactful way.

Also, Canadians would understand plenty of British-isms, we are members of the Commonwealth and our legal system is based on British common-law.

Finally, your derogatory response confirms: I don't like your use of "gibberish" sir, I now find it offensive.

 @morewhitenoise: An interesting counterpoint to your argument
www.bbc.com/culture/article/20180207-how-americans-preserved-british-english

 @bhuckley: Had he used Jargon or Nomenclature rather than Gibberish, this entire trans-Atlantic kerfuffle could have been avoided. However, Clicks keep the lights on......

 @suspended-flesh: I, for one, shoulder some of the blame for all of this

 @suspended-flesh:

Agree, but "gibberish" itself can be fine. According to Merriam-Webster it's:
1) technical & esoteric, or
2) pretentious & needlessly obscure

Neither are particularly insulting in this context. Though it is commonly used to denote "nonsense", which may have started the transatlantic kerfuffle, that's certainly not a universally accepted meaning.

That said,... @mntneer seems to have had derisive intent, so... I'm out.

 @bhuckley: @bhuckley: Long Live Gibberish. A perfectly valid term when not wielded by malcontents.

 @Balgaroth: To play devil's advocate to your point: as an Anglopphone Canadian who doesn't speak French but is slowly trying to learn as I've been in France for over two months now...the French could learn a lesson or two about what is the proper way to do stuff. I can't say that you're French, but you living in France means you might agree with me even in the slightest. And if anyone wants to talk gibberish it's re-learning French after decades of linguistic atrophy.

 @Dustfarter: Yup gonna give you that one, tho I'd love to be able to travel in time and see if it was just French royalty that was that way which translated to actions abroad, or if all the French people were feeling this way too. That would make a big difference compared to the US today. I am sure historians could or already have answered that tbf.

@iammarkstewart : I am Alsacien, some say we are French, we tend to not fully agree with this especially since people define France with Paris which isn't France by any means. Not sure what you mean by French people who would need to learn how to do things the proper way tho. As for learning a foreign language I think english speaking countries are so used to have the world making an effort to speak their language that most of you don't feel the need to learn any other language and since we all make the effort to learn english, why should you indeed. But if you want to integrate in a foreign country, speaking english won't cut it, heck even speaking english properly doesn't make it easy to integrate in english speaking countries' local communities. Now for the rest of the world, because we all have to learn at least one foreign language (yours) I think we might tend to respect a bit more foreign languages as we know how hard it can be and that our language isn't the only one. But that's a very biased vision, not sure my fellow countryman feel the same, especially those that can't speak anything else than French and pretty much consider France to be their entire world.

 @Balgaroth: I'm with you, and I did say I'm trying to learn French, as I agree. I'm extremely thankful and inspired when I've travelled to foreign-language places that the residents there have learned English and several other languages to enable their tourist industries. I am NOT one of the redneck Canadians who constantly demands immigrants speak English, as communication is a two way street. So I will be far from perfect but I am trying to learn as much French as I can while I'm here (Lyon) so that I can have more of a place in my new "home".

"Not sure what you mean by French people who would need to learn how to do things the proper way tho."...I said this in jest poking at some of the ridiculous bureaucracy required to do relatively simple things in life. While the language issue is my problem, bank transfers that take 3000 digits to complete, doctors notes just to join a sports team while everyone smokes away, and a postal service that outright won't deliver mail to our apartment...yeah, some places do that much better than France. Seriously. If we owe money, we'll get the mail. If friends send us a letter, no dice (2 months round trip return to sender from Canada...infuriating). We have to get packages delivered to a relay point because we can't trust anyone to deliver even if I'm home most of the time.

 @iammarkstewart: yeah I mostly work from home too and parcels are a big problem, but that's on the delivery guys, not the french, most of those drivers are "french" and don't give a shit about doing their job half decently. I usually don't have problems with La Poste tho. I guess bureaucracy is a big problem in France yeah, but it is also because France has a complex social system. You need a certificate to do sports (GP usually cost 2€, not 50€ like in liberal countries) which is an inconvenience, but being part of a sport federation comes with insurance and if anything was to happen to you while doing that sport and IF our social system hasn't already covered all your medical expenses, your sport federation will help out and compensate. Funny example, in Ireland (the US of EU) the Alpin club used to cost about the same than in France but if you wanted to go do anything in the Alps and be covered you'd need to pay ridiculous insurances. Because of that I kept my french Alpin club membership during all my time in Ireland and had my Irish girlfriend sign up to my Alpin Club branch so she could be covered properly while we were in Ireland but also during our mountaineering trip in the Alps or in Norway, all in all she had a much better cover, at a much lower price, so I think a little piece of paper from the Doc was well worth the hassle.

 @Balgaroth: I am interested in knowing more about this perception (in a friendly non-combative way):

"Ireland (the US of EU)" I don't dispute it at all - I'd just like to know what some of the similarities are.

 @suspended-flesh: basically Ireland has no social system, a very very basic heath system that will leave you in a bad shape if you don't have expensive private health insurance, everything health related is expensive, as a result anything requiring insurance and insurances themselves are crazy expensive, which also leads people to sure for anything they can to cover their expenses and obviously some will abuse it to try to make money which leads to the insurance cost increase. You can get fired really easily with very little warning and since doll is not indexed on your salary and the cost of living is crazy high you can go from 5k€/month to 800€/month in no time which usually won't even cover the cost of a shared bedroom in a shared apartment in Dublin. So if you loose your job and did save a lot you can end up in a very difficult situation in no time. Those are the biggest, most obvious things that come to mind now and lead me to think it is the US of EU as I don't believe there is a more liberal country in EU. Fun fact, when I left France to go live there I was a firm believer that liberal way is better and that France was way too nice. When I arrived, saw some many people in bad heath state it was a shock and I didn't understand, then after a few month living there and learning the system I realized that people simply couldn't afford basic health stuff so many people (compared to France) end up with a limp, crutches, no teeth and so on which was a shock. It definitely made me appreciate our social system and change my view on ultra liberalism. Too bad our nice system is going down because we allow the world to use it while not participating to its financing but that's another topic.

 @Balgaroth: Dang that sounds rough. Don't believe everything you read about the US - I know hella 'poor' people and there is always a way to get care - especially in the more 'liberal' states. There are tons of jobs here currently, despite historically low unemployment numbers.

 @suspended-flesh: it is not that rough like it is a nice country to live in, but the differences are clearly visible compared to France, especially in Dublin with the junkies and stuff roaming the streets. Never been in the US, maybe one day.

 @Dustfarter: One perfect example to demonstrate how bad America has been with the English language: www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/emcee . F*n retarded.

 @bhuckley: "Falling into administration" is not pretentious, obscure, esoteric or technical. People perform administration every day. Sending emails and booking meetings in a calendar is a form of administration. Winding up a companies affairs, paying its creditors and closing its accounts is also another form of administration. Its rather straight forward...!

 @morewhitenoise: It's Hammertime on the Queen's English.

 @suspended-flesh: kings

 @Compositepro: See? Dumb American am I.

 @suspended-flesh: cmon man I didn't even punctuate king left you a googly there.

 Robin cites "economic headwinds" etc but I can't help wondering if the complete implosion of the crypto and NFT world (or worlds biggest pyramid scheme as some folks call it) hosed them, what with Outside trying to build their own version of Meta complete with its own cryptocurrency and NFT's etc.
He also mentions ad buys are down which probably explains the recent change to autoplay videos, if you can say that you are getting x amount of views on a vid the ad space value is higher, regardless of every pink bike commenter howling in fury..
Reading his letter it sounds like they are trying to squeeze every last dime out of Outside before it shits the bed.. and it probably will, because in spite of all the corporate bullshit bingo spewed by Robin and his backers, they are not actually innovative or creative, they don't care about the communities they are buying the media and tech of, they just want to make money as fast as possible and run
, and reading his letter to staff announcing layoffs, he f**king sucks at that too.

 @gcrank: lol, I’m glad. Such a crappy company.

 @nickfranko: I’d rather not have my favorite editors get laid off :/ cycling tips just lost a few of their best.

 @gcrank: I think the solution is that Pinkbike needs to become extremely hardcore.

 @plustiresaintdead: sad indeed: Caley Fretz, Dave Rome, Matt de Neef to name a few smh

 @nickfranko: but they own pinkbike you don’t want that to go do you?

 @gcrank: Feels like we've seen this all happening before.

Phase 1: Soulless corporate venture capital type buys overvalued company that is largely attached to/dependant on a certain niche community he knows nothing about.

Phase 2: Corporate type is completely ignorant of said niche and subsequently runs the company into the ground.

Phase 3: Proceeds to squeeze the company for all it's worth to cut his losses before it finally implodes.

Do you reckon it's time to start thinking about where to migrate to once the lights go out around here? Feels all but inevitable reading news like this.

 @Mtmw: Haha, very funny. But there are numerous sites already catering to that kind of content.

 @gcrank: It's not their silly NFTs, it's the global economic slowdown and the inevitable slump following the Covid-era outdoors boom.

 @jammf: Shame to see Dave go, I enjoyed his contributions. Is it purely job cuts or a change of editorship, with CF leaving?

 @chakaping: agreed, companies across all industries have been on drunken acquisition sprees, funded by cheap money and the fallacy of never-ending growth. They got out over their skis and hit a mogul field, simple as that.

 While we are hitting our revised membership goals, the slowdown in consumer spending has affected our events and cut into the double-digit growth in ad sales we enjoyed in the first three quarters of the year.

Ok so you guys planned for literally double digit growth, are shocked when that’s not sustainable in less than one year (!), then had to cut 12% of the (apparently, highest earning/most valuable) employees since things aren’t growing at a double digit rate. Well done. A more nimble and less sociopathic organization might have been able to manage this but I guess when you buy literally every cycling news outlet at once planning on that growth 1. You effed up and 2. You’re not gonna make $.

For me, it’s gonna be sad to watch as things get even worse since this recession is only lacing it’s shoes and it’s about to go running.

 @nickfranko: ditto that patriot

 Got to add 1.5kg for that glorious paint job.

Jokes aside, I questioned the weight specs a while ago, because one web page called it in at 2.65kg and one at 2.96kg (presumably both of these are the 16" weights). I was informed that the lower was UK made Reynolds 631 and the higher was 4130. Just thought i'd share. I have to say I have had nothing but a great experience with Stanton, the customer service has been brilliant, and they even threw in a free headset for me, so I didn't have to buy a press to build it up! Shame to see a passionate small builder go through a tough time, hopefully the admins do what they're supposed to and get it sold or back up on it's feet!

 @Mikesingleton128: This was a UK made Reynolds 631.

 Yeah, I feel some brands advocating for a made in "local" (which is totally good initiative by the way) might also use this for an extra extra uplift on their prices. I mean, I expect a local manufacturing to cost significantly higher than a far east one, but sometimes I feel the pricing is still a bit off tbh... And those brands will have a hard time in the coming months/years with the current global economics

 Brexit is probably the main reason of this failure, for all the reasons it features, in addition to the uncontrolable costs of raw material, transport, and so on.... AND also, being part of such a niche is wonderful but also risky and kind of utopic considering the market tendencies. If I'd be fortunate I'd invest at once in such a company, because it is simply beautiful.

 @Aksel31: agreed, I would love to see manufacturing come back to the (insert country of origin here) but, the economical climate we (both left and right, what ever, yawn) have created for ourselves makes most of these niche products out of price range for the majority of people working an living in those jobs to afford!!
buisness rates, energy prices, an now green taxes all adds up. NOW add brexshit an covid to that........

like i said there's a reason the far east is killing it at manufacturing, Very sad but, true

@danstonQ Yes Totally!! my industry (low end Alu foundry + manufacturing) among others has been f*ckED by brexshit. I see it daily, I live it daily an yet STILL pro brexshiteers "see no ships"..............

 I would say a good buisness model would be to keep far east bikes an frames at a low end price range And also have the same stuff "made in UK" for the luxery snob market........?

I know a BMX company worked like this back in my BMX 90's days but, I cannot remember which one ! maybe Hoffman bikes??

 @danstonQ: Brexit isn't responsible for anything negative, Brexit is proving to be awesome. It has in no way lead to increased costs or loss of business for any UK company or person. We now have control of our borders, so boats full of desperate immigrants turning up on south coast beaches are no longer a thing. Our health service is in the best place ever, no waiting times and an extremely contented work force. Brexit has led to political stability and a strong economy.
Brexit is hands down the best thing that has ever happened to our fine country!
Yours sincerely
Boris and Nigel.

 @commental: could not have said it better myself mate

 @naptime: It still happens now, quite a few BMX brands have "high end" US-made frames at higher price points and Taiwanese-made frames at lower price points.

Generally speaking the Taiwanese-made ones are the same quality, they just cost less to make so get them where they want to be cost wise.

I can kind of see why it works for those US brands, but when you export those frames to other markets it makes less sense. For example, when I was looking at buying a frame a while back the "Made in the US" tag didn't mean anything to me other than I'd need to pay £150 or so more for what was essentially the same thing.

I expect it would have been the same for Stanton, plus the additional issues caused by Brexit dicking them as far as import/export goes.

 @CleanZine: ah yeah, now you've reminded me. S&M an F'it imediatly come to mind.
I love BTR's frames an ethics an would LOVE to support him if I could afford to, breaks my heart to say it but, maybe BTR could be next

 @naptime: That's the Chromag model. They have a few Taiwan made frames and then you can get all custom with your Canada made frame. But they also have soft goods, bars/stems, saddles. Plus they market themselves well.

 @CleanZine: That would be Fit. Their completes are Taiwanese, their frames are made by S&M. Robo and Moeller have had a friendship for a lonnnnng time.

 @commental: this is not from the viewpoint of a 60 year old conservative voting gammon from Hammersmith?

 @Compositepro: Is that the demographic who's downvoted me? Have they pulled their head out of their arse for long enough to read my comment and register their outrage by hitting the red arrow whilst chanting the mantra "Everything's fine, I maintain my opinion that Brexit has lead to a huge improvement in the way the country's being run and I wait with baited breath for my blue passport to arrive."?
Bring on those downvotes. I wear them like a badge of honour.

 @hexonjuan: That relationship ended a fairly long time ago when Robbie left Fit to start Cult. Cult also do similar now, or did at least. Haven't looked at their lineup in a while but typically most pro frames were US with more general frames being Taiwanese.

 @commental: no idea from what i understand though thats the demographic i know they read the daily heil and lust for a role doing speedwatch with the local police camera speed unit, dont really follow who votes for anything on pinkbike i got told the demographic here was 99% dentists and 1 poor kid still living in his mums basement wanking all day , so you have possibly 1 kid you managed to get to look up from hornpub for long enough to vote (quite an achievment) or just 3 dentists

 @naptime: Alrrady gone havent they ? One still makes something whilst the other realised theres sod all money in bicycles and got a proper job? Its only a matter of time Kudos and likes from internet fans dont pay a wage and it looks like to make a living 1500 quid minimum is what you need to pay yourself a month these days just to survive.

 @CleanZine: Welp, I have been outta the 20" scene for some time now. I shall sit corrected.

 @naptime: Naw, he's one man with no financial backers to worry about - might hre throw in the towel? sure - will it be some investor shit storm like this one? nah.

 @danstonQ: Stanton's frames are either made in Taiwan, using locally-produced chromoly tubing, or in the U.K., using Reynolds tubing from Birmingham. Being in or not being in the European Union would have no impact on Stanton's production costs.

 @naptime: It's chicken and egg. Look at Cotic- they get a lot of frame parts made just along the road from me on the edge of Edinburgh. But that took ages for them to get going, because there just weren't frame manufacturers out there in the UK ready to take the orders.

THe frames aren't cheap, mind, but they're not outrageous and they sell well. But it took years of effort, from a well established and respected brand, to make it happen with at least one well publicised failure to get it going. If I wanted to get one frame made in the UK, no bother but if I wanted to get a hundred? Realistically it's not an option even if I could sell them for £10000 each, no amount of cash suddenly creates a skilled manufacturer.

And of course the taiwanese cotics are bloody lovely bikes.

 @surreybcrider: Do you think Reynolds mine their own iron and chromium in the UK, and run their furnaces and factory using electricity generated from a turbo trainer? Even a factory in the UK consumes raw materials from all over.

And of course it's not just about production costs but also about costs per unit.

 But make sure you dig in the next one over.

 What a reference. Bravo sir

 160 years…

 "You See In This World There's Two Kinds Of People, My Friend - Those With Loaded Guns, And Those Who Dig. You Dig."
Best Movie of All Times IMO

 Not just Canada. I’m in southeast USA and we have a brewery on every corner now. No way they all stay in business unfortunately.

 I’ve looked at Stanton a couple of times but you’re right the bikes just didn’t check out in terms of modern geometry (yes we are consumers and play into the latest trends)

 @enduroNZ: no point in getting a new bike if your old one is basically the same, cause hardtails don't really wear out.

 @jesse-effing-edwards: Exactly. I'm still rolling around on my mk1 Switchback from 2016.

 @sunnshine: exactly. Why get a new bike that's the same. Haha

 Worth noting that their geo was measured at 25% sag on 140mm forks, so the latest gen bikes (they did keep tweaking and as a result the bikes are awesome to ride…) were 1.5-2 degrees slacker than the charts read (if you missed the small print), putting them is the same ballpark as most(63-66 degrees depending on model).

 @KeithBM: This guy gets it. Stantons are actually very slack. They do tend to run a tiny bit short on reach and seat angle by their size recommendation compared to other builders. Its just a recommendation though. Anyone is free to size up. Saying their geo is outdated is literally wrong.

 Which explains why you’re not rich ;-)

 @VelkePivo: Tough, but fair

 @VelkePivo: to be honest a lot of people who build bikes arent rich , they do have a love of building things or bikes

 @Compositepro: If you want to make a small fortune in the bike industry, the best way to do it is to start with a large one.

 There's probably office staff included in that number e.g. payroll. I'd say 3 or 4 on actual frame builds.

 @fatduke: Sure, but your overhead for paying 11 people is significant. Even if you're paying a few of them very little, it's gotta be $300 per day per person just in salary, let alone renting your space, utilities, insurance, etc etc etc.

If you're burning through a $5k/day in overhead and you are really optimistically making $1000 per bike/frame, just breakeven is 5 bikes a day. So having 8 bikes that need to get shipped out... that's really, really bad.

 @waltworks: I think that's just complete builds. I think they sell way more frames than they do complete bikes.

 @Davec85: The statement from Stanton specifically mentions 'frames in boxes', not complete builds?

 It sounds like they may have gone to hard during covid and the slow down has bitten badly.

It’s a real shame - if nobody buys them the administrator will liquidate stock to recover the creditors money and that’s that, though this won’t stop Stanton mk2 from appearing later down the line of course.

All the info will be thrown up on companies house soon either way.

I really feel for the guys at Stanton having their business aired publicly but I suppose that’s life in business.

 @justanotherusername: @justanotherusername: No not at all that is business its why company accounts are publicly available if only all the reasons the sun doesnt shine out of certain peoples arses was aired as publicly maybe peole wouldnt be going oh poor x its terrible.

Plenty of companies in the UK are utter shithouses hidden behind brilliant PR

 @thewanderingtramp: You misunderstand me - I have no issue with details being public on companies house - My details are on companies house and as I said that's business.

I do feel for them having this put as front page news on PB though as Stanton are a stand up company run by a stand up guy - they are not the bad guys, this is no Sick bikes.

And as for company accounts being publicly available - that's only partly true below a certain size / turnover - you only have to file minimal information, for example you wont find out the company turnover, its profit etc etc - Have a look at Stanton's accounts for example, very little to go on there.

You certainly cant tell if the company is a shithouse from its corporation tax returns online.

 @justanotherusername: 700k to make back is quite a bit of money eeek

 @Compositepro: Looks like he was putting hundreds in each year - big bucks.

Lots of bike frames….

 I believe they're still trading for now. So hopefully people will still get their frames

 Depends.

 It means they've run out of money, so unless somebody buys the company they're in trouble

 This is roughly the equivalent of a Chapter 11 in the US, so not great.

 Similar to saying 'filed for bankruptcy'. It's a UK/AUS/NZ/and maybe others thing. It's probably bad, but just maybe could have a positive outcome if someone with cash steps in to prop up the business and make the necessary changes.

 Call your CC company and see if they can help

 I just ordered a frame on sale. What do we do now?

 @evanwoodard: call your credit card company ASAP! Fulfilling customers' orders is basically the last on the list of priorities for a company that has been called into admin. I could be wrong, but I've seen this happen a handful of times and customers usually get screwed.

 I ordered a sherpa last winter. They said it was in stock and just needed to be painted and shipped. It was like 4 months I waited. I emailed when they missed dates and got polite replies with plausible excused but.... glad I got an extra derailleur hanger...

 @evanwoodard: If you paid on a credit card you should be able to get your money back from your credit card company if the frames never arrives. That said, I believe the company are still trading for the time being so you might still get your frame

 @evanwoodard: It depends on the situation at Stanton now - it’s likely your frame will still be shipped, the administrator wants to find a resolution for the company that saves it and gets the creditor paid so holding your frame achieves nothing.

I can understand you being nervous though - ask Stanton first I would say, they will still be there, after that I suppose cancel the order.

They are still trading so all being well you get the frame and Stanton survive.

 You got done mate. Oldest trick in the book. Hit the gym, get ripped. Tell everyone your dropping by with a 6 pack

 The free hub didn’t have the end cap, it was useless. I dropped it back in your post box.

 @MattInNZ: No end cap as I told you before you came. And No, You didn't.

 @dkendy1: It must have been a couple of years. Please get in touch. I can’t find our correspondence.

 Nice, its now a limited collectors item!

 @thewanderingtramp: or priceless. Depends

 Outside Inc.

 Rocky Mountain, maybe? They have not changed the suspension design since 1998, Can not afford a designer?

 First off, false, the pivot moved from seatstay to chainstay at some point... Jokes aside, that seems like a silly way to measure success. Rocky might sell more units in Vancouver alone than Stanton does globally.

 Likely any company who doesn't yet have an ebike in their range.