The Pinkbike Podcast: Episode 34 - Grilling Levy About Field Test Trail Bikes (and His Bonspiel)

Dec 7, 2020 at 12:49
by Mike Levy  
Art by Taj Mihelich


The Field Test isn't quite wrapped up yet - there are still a few enduro bike reviews to come - but episode 34 sees Kazimer, Brian, and James grill me about the five trail bikes I spent the last month comparing. Is the Salsa Blackthorn really just a purple all-mountain bike? How is the Stumpy even rideable without Horst Link suspension? Why didn't we get a Trance X to test without Fox's computer-controlled Live Valve suspension? Where does the new Mojo 4 excel? How was my bonspiel? Do the P-Train's steel tubes make any difference on the trail?

If you've read the Field Test reviews and still want more info, today's Pinkpod is a must-listen.




THE PINKBIKE PODCAST // EPISODE 34 - GRILLING LEVY ABOUT FIELD TEST TRAIL BIKES
December 2, 2020

All trail bikes, all the time. Except for when we talk about curling.


Hosted by Mike Levy (usually) and featuring a rotating cast of the editorial team and other guests, the Pinkbike Podcast is a weekly update on all the latest stories from around the world of mountain biking, as well as some frank discussion about tech, racing, and everything in between.





Previous Pinkbike Podcasts
Episode 1 - Why Are Bikes So Expensive?
Episode 2 - Where the Hell is the Grim Donut?
Episode 3 - Pond Beaver Tech
Episode 4 - Why is Every Bike a Trail Bike?
Episode 5 - Can You Trust Bike Reviews?
Episode 6 - Over Biked Or Under Biked?
Episode 7 - Wild Project Bikes
Episode 8 - Do We Need an Even Larger Wheel Size?
Episode 9 - Why Are We Doing a Cross-Country Field Test?
Episode 10 - Getting Nerdy About Bike Setup
Episode 11 - Are We Going Racing This Year?
Episode 12 - What's the Future of Bike Shops?
Episode 13 - Are Bikes Too Regular Now?
Episode 14 - What Bikes Would Pinkbike Editors Buy?
Episode 15 - What's Holding Mountain Biking Back?
Episode 16 - Who's Your Mountain Biking Hero?
Episode 17 - XC Field Test Insider
Episode 18 - Electronics on your Mountain Bike: Good or Bad?
Episode 19 - The Hardtail Episode
Episode 20 - MTB Conspiracy Theories
Episode 21 - Stuff We Were Wrong About
Episode 22 - Does Your Riding Style Match Your Personality?
Episode 23 - Grim Donut 2 is Live!
Episode 24 - Why Even Buy a DH Bike?
Episode 25 - Fall Field Test Preview
Episode 26 - The Three Most Important Mountain Bikes
Episode 27 - The World Champs Special
Episode 28 - All About Women's Bikes
Episode 29 - Freeride or Die
Episode 30 - Would You Rather?
Episode 31 - Wet Weather Riding Tips & Tricks
Episode 32 - What Needs to Change in the Bike Industry?
Episode 33 - Behind the Scenes at Pinkbike Academy


124 Comments

  • 24 0
 We will never forgive you the Aprit 1st Grim Donut joke Smile
  • 29 3
 Worth it.
  • 4 0
 @mikelevy: making it a 15 minute video was brilliant. You got me good.
  • 12 0
 A trail bike for me is something that I can pump rollers, pop off a root just because its fun, wiggle though the rock garden and take the wide line to roost the dead leaves. Then climb the twisty climbing trail for fun. An enduro bike is something that I can gap those rollers, pick the fastest line without having to think about that root, smash through the middle of the rock garden and nail that corner with the fastest line. Then spin back up the forest road.
  • 7 0
 Yes
  • 2 0
 @Ussr1223: Maybe tho
  • 1 0
 @mikelevy: What if
  • 1 0
 Agreed. I have 120/110 and 27.5+ tires. For where I ride, that is the perfect trail bike for me. People show up to the trail with 150/130 bikes all the time and I just do not understand why. You will never use that travel and you cannot get creative enough to go beyond maybe half of that available travel.
  • 12 0
 This was the best PB Podcast yet. Thanks for discussing the HP suspension designs in particular.
  • 3 0
 Smile
  • 7 0
 Forgetting labels, is there really an advantage to having a bike with a 33+ lbs 64° HTA and a 160mm fork with only 135-140mm of travel in the rear? Does it actually pedal significantly better than a 160/160mm bike?
  • 2 0
 Gone from 160/170 27.5 to a 145/160 mullet setup and seen a fair difference on the climbs. Granted shredded probably 3 pounds in build.
  • 1 0
 The way I look at it, if you're in that weight/head angle/suspension that's favoring downhill, I want more travel. I just went from a 35lb 160F/140R bike to a 36lb 170F/155R bike and couldn't be happier
  • 6 0
 King of Kong is definitely one of the best documentaries of all time, strongly agree! Literally one of the best real world villains captured on camera in the most ABSOLUTELY absurd sense.
  • 5 0
 @brianpark Isn't a more "customizable" headset the solution to bikes that use the same front triangle? If manufactures stopped integrating the bearing race then they could press in cups that let them change headtube angle length.

Shorter travel, lets steepen up the angle by 1-1.5 degrees and add a lower cup with 10-15mm of stack. Longer travel, remove the extra stack and slack it out.

This would keep the reach, seat tube angle, and BB drop much closer between models, and give more aftermarket customization options by the riders who what to play around.
  • 5 1
 Kaz was onto something talking about trail vs enduro bike classification. Is it possible that it is acceptable to call anything 120-160mm of travel a trail bike is fine and what trails the rider is on most influences what travel they choose? Not every trail bike needs to be the “Squamish trail bike,” the category should be a bit more fluid than that. I think the enduro category is much smaller as it really only encompasses what is comfortable to race on, ie specialized enduro, Rocky altitude, etc.
  • 10 2
 Enduro is a race format rather than mountain bike style anyway
  • 8 0
 According to some DH racers, anything with a single crown is a trail bike.
  • 5 1
 @toad321: Enduro is a type of riding - easy up, smash the downs. You can do that on any bike.
  • 1 0
 My 170mm E29 IS my trail bike.
  • 2 0
 From what I understand, in actual EWS you can't even take it as easy on the ups as you'd like to. I do indeed view DH, XC and enduro as race (that is, timed competition) formats and trail, all mountain, downcountry etc as the non-timed counterparts. And yes the more different names we come up with, the more blurry this becomes. And I don't even care. We ride mountainbikes. You can race them but if you don't you can have a blast too. Obviously even the edges of mountainbiking are getting blurred. You've got the XC-CX-gravel blur. You've got 4X-BMXrace blur, the street-BMX blur and you've got the DJ-BMX blur. And is bicycle trials even an mtb discipline or is it officially a discipline on its own?
  • 4 1
 Desserts: 1. When Brian said strawberry rhubarb crumble I was alone in my car and yelled "NO"

2: @mikelevy those bananas are the tits! Pro tip, Light it on fire and let it burn until it goes out.... a little char and some extra caramelized chemicals.... #heaven
  • 6 1
 Also, it helps that bananas are healthy.
  • 2 2
 @mikelevy: If you think those are healthy, please DM about some prime investment opportunities.
  • 6 0
 New marketing claim for Specialized. "Lighter than a couple of @mikelevy's shits!"
  • 5 0
 Scooters are by far the worst thing to drop in at the skatepark. I thought this was common knowledge?
  • 1 0
 @wickedslams on IG has posted hours worth of proof that Scooters are indeed the worst.
  • 3 0
 By worse you mean embarrassing right?
  • 2 0
 Back in my day that was the case. I walked my dog by my old skatepark the other week and saw about 20 scooters and not one bmx
  • 2 0
 @mikelevy: Where did everyone get an idea that S-Works SJ frame weights 1240g with the shock and all hardware? My S3 is 2456g with just the shock and 2507g with the shock, axle and seat clamp. Fanatik weights them without shock and numbers are similar. Maybe Pinkbike can reach out to Specialized for clarification? Please save us weight weenies from heart attack!
  • 1 0
 didn't they say 2200 something?
  • 1 0
 @cove-hustler: Yes, sorry. Of course they said 2240, not 1240. The point is in reality it weights half of a pound heavier. And while it's still impressively light for this amount of travel, it's not something outstanding. The weight is close to Ripley and other bikes.
  • 3 1
 I have a question: what’s Pinkbike’s take on sewer rat and the pinkers that want you guys to give him free stuff for a couple so/so entertaining comments? I didn’t see any responses from moderators to any of the giveaways and at a bear minimum can you tell us why pink bike doesn’t want to answer this question or respond to the giveaway thread?
  • 2 0
 Wait what? Might have missed something here. Where’s the thread?
  • 2 0
 @brianpark: I just mean the comment section underneath the article, ppl are asking for him to win the contest or pb to give him stuff and no ones Said yes or no
  • 1 0
 @bike-lair: what contest what? can you link me? we post a lot of articles...
  • 2 0
 Question for the next podcast:

Do you guys change your suspension settings when riding in the cold? I went for my first colder ride of the season this week and I noticed the suspension felt much more harsh vs when the air temperature warmed up about 15 degrees by the end of my ride.
  • 3 0
 Yup, I do that.
  • 1 0
 I think after a small amount of riding the cycling of the suspension will warm up the air and oil. Make it feel normal. But yeah, I have felt what youre feeling.
  • 1 0
 pv=nrt haha
  • 5 0
 I hope Levy has some Curling tips...
  • 11 0
 Stay sober enough that you don't fall and crack your head Smile
  • 6 2
 Tip 1. Don't curl.
  • 3 0
 @Cauterize: thanks I will continue to put that advice to practice!
  • 3 0
 @Adamrideshisbike: The only tip that matters.
  • 1 0
 @Cauterize: Curling is like our 3rd national sport lol
  • 4 0
 @mikelevy: is a broom without a bottle-cage braze-ons a non-starter?
  • 2 1
 What's so wrong with travel adjust forks @mikekazimer @mikelevy? I just got into mountain biking a couple of years ago so I missed them but a friend has a talas and the idea of having a full Enduro fork reduced to 140mm with the angles steepening seems ideal to me. What am I missing and why did they go away?
  • 3 0
 BB goes to the ground with modern long-low-slack bikes. Back when BB's were tall adjustable fork travel was amazing- steepened seat angle especially.
  • 2 0
 What mobiller said, lowers he bb too much and you'll pedal strike a bunch. Also (in my limited experience on travel adjust forks at least) in the lowered position, the fork was basically preloaded by a couple inches, hence it was a harsh ride, which was uncomfortable when climbing rough trails. Any one know if this was the case with all travel adjust forks?
  • 3 0
 @ShortJeffsyOwner - The other commentators nailed it: many bikes have bottom brackets that are already super low, and dropping the fork would make them way too low in the techy stuff.

Aside from that, the big thing for me is that I want to get used to how my bike handles and then that's it - that's how it handles, ya know? I don't want the steering to change.
  • 2 0
 They were nice in principle but, along with BB issues, the performance of the travel adjustable forks was generally not as good as the non adjustable versions. This is definitely the case with the RS dual position Vs solo air and from what I hear also the Talas. Additionally, I would either forget to turn it on or off so half the time was riding in the "wrong" travel. The way steeper seat tubes today alleviate a lot of the climbing issues.
  • 2 0
 @kcy4130: Kind of depends on what travel adjustment system you have. I've got a couple of Magura forks with Flight Control travel adjust. It basically opens a port between positive and negative air chamber so that the negative air chamber becomes bigger. This actually makes the fork more sensitive, which is good on climbs as you obviously won't hit obstacles at speed but the added traction is good. I think it was good that it was adjustable on the fly though apparently for too many people it was too difficult to operate as you needed to unload the front and flick the lever to raise the front again. Seems like too many people had trouble doing that. The last version of it (which I didn't own) had a toggle switch just like the latest Canyon enduro bikes, so a rider no longer had to keep the lever depressed and shift weight to make adjustments.
  • 1 0
 Thanks everyone for the replies, I've actually learned a lot! how about the new Manitou forks that can be adjusted but not on the fly? it seems to be simple enough that you could set up your forks at 140mm for trail riding and then at 170mm if you're shuttling (if you have a 150-160 bike lets say)
  • 3 0
 GCN made that joke of the "lightest bike from specialized and its under a grand!"
and if I had a kid I'd get them one 100% lol idc
  • 4 0
 How much weight do you think that Dangerholm could get off that specialized carbon balance bike?
  • 2 0
 Question for @mikelevy and @mikekazimer: when you are testing not yet released bikes, how do you prevent the keen-eyed trail spotters from seeing - and possibly posting about embargoed bikes?
  • 7 0
 Ride fast & ride alone.
  • 7 0
 @Cashallen - I ride solo 90% of the time.
  • 1 0
 I enjoyed this discussion. I think a follow up to the field test is a best of the best shootout. Take all the bikes you'd recommend to people (regardless of price or travel/category) and then ride them on a variety of trails and see how it turns out.
  • 1 0
 Great episode as usual. Nice to have Levy back: the mix of everyone seems to make this podcast great, and when one is missing it's just not quite as much fun.

But one thing that I'd like to complain about even though I understand the cause: it was super fun to see Levy ride the bikes in his videos, but a bummer not to get to see Kazimer ride them in his! I know it's not important, but in the bigger picture...anyway, as part of the bike reviews it's just really fun to get to see the actual reviewer riding the bikes. I know y'all can't cross the border and the bikes can, but it would have been really rad to have gotten some kind of video from the south of the border testing. End of pointless complaint.
  • 1 0
 It definitely felt out of the norm for us to do it that way, too. Hopefully back to Kaz and I filming together soon Smile
  • 1 0
 We've just ordered a Trek Slash frameset for my wife. I'm the kind of person that researches every purchase, but there is next to nothing online review wise on the aluminum frame. At least it should have the same suspension performance and geo. But, if you were in the market for a new stumpjumper you have a similar problem, but the suspension is completely different (same as last year?).

I'd love to see more back to back comparisons of the same bike with different frame materials. Is it just weight (a few hundred frames can be saved elsewhere on the bike for much less than the difference between alu and carbon frames)? Or does the bike ride differently?

I don't think it's particularly fair to the consumer for brands to just send out their top end bikes to "inform" the consumer that can't afford a $10k bike, looking lower down the range.
  • 1 0
 @mikelevy @mikekazimer I know it's hard for you to talk about something you haven't experienced first hand while testing. But why don't you include known issues like trek's thru shaft shocks, pole's customer service and frame failures, free bushings for your Santa Cruz bike or availability and serviceability into your reviews. I think this kind of information would be one of the most usefulf ones for readers/buyers. Things that are known but not told in reviews are kind of misleading. I really appreciate your reviews and I see that you are including some information on cable routing etc. But telling how a bike rides is not everything I need to know when buying a new bike. Tell us about brands that have the reputation of lasting forever/breaking all the time. Tell us how companies treat you when things go wrong.
  • 1 0
 Question:
Who is riding the enduro bikes on the Video? Because it doesn’t seems to be Kazimer. The guy is on the same trails as Levy was with the trail bikes, and he is running the front brake on the right.
Did Kaz rode the bikes home to review? Then shipped them to bc for someone to ride them and get filmed? Or did he finish the underground tunnel to BC and made it across? ????????
  • 1 0
 I have a question for you guys:
Which bike parts benefit the most from Carbon technology?
*Cranks?
* Handlebars
* Complete frame, front triangle or rear triangle? (will we ever see an aluminum front with carbon rear?)
* wheels?
what do you guys think? (I have nothing carbon on my bikes)
  • 1 0
 The most difficult thing to drop into a skatepark is an impossible wheel, aka a BC wheel (after the comic strip). Actually an impossible wheel is the most difficult thing to ride anywhere.
  • 3 0
 So, 135mm travel bike with Enduro like geometry... Is it extra downcountry? Downcountry plus? Down trail?
  • 11 1
 Upduro
  • 2 1
 @brianpark: I think mentioning "up" scares too many people... Its all about the downs... LOL
  • 8 0
 trailduro
  • 2 0
 @jdills: "Trailduro" it's like "All Mountain" but sounds much faster.
  • 2 0
 Maybe just add SL to the name "enduro SL", get to top faster to get to the bottom faster.
  • 2 0
 Since @mikelevy asked Kazimer about the knee pads he reviewed, what did you think of Dianese ones you were using during the Field Test? They look snazzy and pedally
  • 3 0
 Those were included in Kaz's test. www.pinkbike.com/news/review-6-best-new-pedal-friendly-knee-pads-2021.html

I think he said they were all pretty good, but those weren't his favourites.
  • 1 0
 @brianpark: they were actual a slightly different and lighter version of the ones Kaz reviewed:

www.dainese.com/ca/en/bike/bike-safety/knees/trail-skins-lite-knee-guards-203879726.html?dwvar_203879726_color=BLACK&cgid=bike-safety-knees#start=1

I’m in the market for pads and figured if they could hack it in Squamish strapped onto Levy, they’d probably suit my needs just fine. :-)
  • 3 0
 @mikekazimer would you pick the Meta TR as your trail bike if you were still in Conn?
  • 5 0
 Hmm, I'd probably go with something a little lighter, a bike like the Transition Spur or Norco Optic.
  • 8 0
 @mikekazimer: You wouldn't pick the TR and add some Double Down Assegai tires and Trickstuff brakes? Who are you?
  • 2 0
 A pudding is filling encased in suet A pie is filling fully encased in pastry, if it doesn't have pastry sides and a base it is just a stew wearing a hat.
  • 1 1
 Can we choose a metric or imperial system and stick to it.
Measuring frame weights in 000's of grams over kg seems silly and then regarding the whole bike in lbs is hard to keep up with.
We've settled on metric as the standard for length can we choose a weight standard also?
  • 1 0
 Yeah, and I ride 737er.... not a 29er.
  • 2 0
 @krka73: I've ridden a 737er, really made me feel like a passenger instead of a rider.
  • 1 0
 @kcy4130: I see what you did there....
  • 1 0
 @kcy4130: I was expecting something more like 699er for life!
  • 1 0
 @mikekazimer @mikelevy A company should put live-valve on either a conventional horst link bike (notorious for pedal bob) or even a long travel VPP bike (i.e long travel Santa Cruz) to see how well it improves those bikes.
  • 1 0
 @mikekazimer - How do the Chromag knee past from this years knee pad review compare to the 7idp project knee pads from last year?

@mikelevy - How would you say the Pole Stamina 140 fares compared to the S-Works Stumpjumper?
  • 1 1
 Why did Kaz do the enduro bikes and Levy do the trail bikes? I’ve been to Squamish and bellingham and would want longer travel in Squamish. Is levy just better at absorbing bumps?
  • 4 0
 Kaz is the more aggressive rider of the two, though Levy definitely tries his best /:
  • 4 0
 @unrooted @hllclmbr Kazimer generally spends more time on longer travel bikes, whereas I prefer riding shorter travel bikes on the same kind of trails. In other words, if Kaz or I didn't work at PB, we'd probably end up riding the same trails but I'd be on a 120ish bike and he might be on a 150-160ish bike. Because of this, we tend to write about what we know best/have the best reference for. That said, I know Kaz rides plenty of short-travel fun bikes and I always have one or two 150-160mm bikes in the test fleet as well Smile
  • 1 0
 Check out shifterbikes on insta. He made his own carbon strider for his kid in April. Pretty darn close to the Spesh and fully pimped
  • 4 6
 So, i'm the guy who said you cheated with the Giant.. first, thanks for clearing up wether or not climb switches were used.
Second, the live valve, come oooon, are we reeaally getting that lazy?? "doing the thinking for us" ?? Its not like it has sensors reading the terrain in front of the bike and adjusting compression valving in advance.. its really only just electronic low speed compression control. And i still believe that uphill any of the other bikes would have had better times if climb switches were used.. just as it was used automatically on the Giant.
Realistically, the Giant would be a much better performer downhill with a proper high quality shock, and would still be as fast uphill using a climb switch.. which is hardly a problem to use especially if it has a remote.
As for the comment on the live valve on flatter terrain, same applies. And thats why the Giant is a big miss. Unfortunately it seems they're charging a premium for something that just isnt up to par. But by all means, if someone is willing to pay for it, be my guest...
  • 5 2
 I think it exactly does sense the terrain and closes/opens the valve. So no, it is completely unlike a manual lockout.
  • 6 1
 Imagine riding your bike up hill and you have the perfect amount of dampening on every rock, every bump. Especially when you pick up your speed to get over a boulder. Instead of being locked out entirely and having a bike bounce around, you have the suspension doing its job with exact precision. Im not surprised it was the best climber. As far as downhill hill goes, it would be cool to see the bike go into a mode where its your preferred settings. If it feels the trail become flatter or uphill it can take over. When we design bikes to demolish downhills with ease, let the design do exactly that. But when its not catered to climbing, I think this is where live valve should be focused. Good on Giant for trying it. As its expensive, I could see this becoming a big thing in the future of XC racing and maybe even enduro for those courses that have a lot of brutal flatter sprints
  • 1 4
 @lkubica: @chillrider199

Plenty of, if not most shocks, have a climb switch which is NOT, i repeat NOT, a lockout.. but rather a type of low speed compression adjuster. For example i have one on my bike, rock shox call it a threshold switch.
And guess what, it does pretty much exactly what Levy described when talking about the live valve. Class dismissed.
  • 3 0
 @chillrider199: and imagine it with a Grip 2 cartridge instead of the current Fit 4...
  • 3 1
 @PsyCro: Alright, be closed minded and dont actually look into the science/tech of how the sensors work and how precise live valve can be for climbs. Your loss. Seems you know how it all works. After all Levy has ridden one and I know you have not. Oh well
  • 2 0
 I think what Fox is doing is considered an 'active' system. These systems do have sensors that sense terrain and bike input. Active systems don't do things in advance, they do things without manual input. From a Fox Live Valve patent:

patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/18/d0/68/921ee62488cb49/US20200309229A1.pdf

"An output electric signal from the device is transmitted to the controller. The controller responds to that signal by adjusting the damping rate of the damping assembly to lock or unlock, and/or set at some intermediate level according to the output electric signal"

So the bike can lock and unlock (among other things) without you doing anything. So it thinks and acts for you.
  • 1 3
 @chillrider199: you obviuosly haven't gotten the point. If the other bikes had proper climb switches, and if they were not used.. then we still don't know how much better live valve actually is. My assumption based on logic and current suspension technology has been stated.
  • 1 2
 @WheelBased: shocks and forks already do most of that without our input, using shim stacks compression valving rebound valving etc etc, and all of that works in a certain way depending on the bump being absorbed. I'll believe for technological advacement sake that live valve is a tiny tiny bit better in some situations.. but worth the money considering the price and overall performance, don't think so, not even close.
  • 3 0
 @PsyCro: Those mechanical systems are called passive systems. The output forces of a shim stack don't change based on the input in current systems. If you added a system that, for example, moves the shim stack based on an input, then it becomes active. That's what Live Valve does.
  • 1 2
 @WheelBased: dude, thats all good and fine, but be we still don't actually know if its better. In fact by the review we have been given, we only really know that its worse for a good portion of riding. Thats all i'm trying to acknowledge here, and not only acknowledge but hopefully help others understand the discrepancies.
I'm all for technology, if it actually makes things better..
  • 1 0
 @PsyCro: ""doing the thinking for us" ?? Its not like it has sensors reading the terrain in front of the bike and adjusting compression valving in advance.."

It does have sensors that sense terrain and rider input and then adjusts compression valving automatically. Not only does it think for us, it also acts for us. I don't want people on here reading this and being uninformed as to what Fox have developed.
  • 1 2
 @WheelBased: you have got to be kidding me.. you even quoted me and then went on about sensors in a different context..
And if it really really wasn't clear for you, i meant sensors that look at the trail ahead of you like a sonar and anticipate suspension settings. But whatever, now we're getting into semantics.
  • 2 0
 So, obviously this thread got heated, but I do wonder (apart from any fights about what counts as a lockout or whatever) how much better the other bikes would have done with the pedal platform/lockout engaged. Hey @mikelevy, how do you feel about doing a whole new round of rides to see how much efficiency changes with the shocks locked out?
  • 1 0
 Am I the only one who never uses a climb switch?
  • 3 0
 OMFG those foam bananas
  • 2 0
 Right?! So good.
  • 1 0
 "You're taking Donkey Kong over Duck hunt?"

"... Have you WATCHED King of Kong??"
  • 1 0
 Which version of the Knolly are you getting? Long travel or the "shorter" travel
  • 1 0
 @mike levy - Do you need any front end curlers to fill up a curling rink for your next bonspiel?
  • 1 0
 Please do an episode on your favorite trails -- local and destination rides!
  • 1 0
 The privateer series we want but don't deserve
  • 1 0
 Great episode guys, thanks
  • 3 4
 Snorefest is over, @mikelevy is back!!! \m/
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