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The Pinkbike Podcast: Episode 51 - Should MTB Media Post Spy Shots?

Mar 2, 2021 at 10:50
by Mike Levy  
Pinkbike Podcast
Art by Taj Mihelich.

The best part about mountain biking is the actual biking, of course, but there's certainly nothing wrong with being just as excited by the latest piece of technology or that brand-new bike you just bought. And if you're anything like us, you also love to see the gear that you can't quite buy yet - I'm talking about those grainy spy shots of bikes and parts that are still very much in the development and testing phase. Of course, there are a few different kinds of so-called 'spy shots,' be it a brand rolling their unreleased bike through the Whistler village during Crankworx in the hopes that someone will snap a few iPhone photos for their guerilla marketing campaign on Instagram (yes, it does go down like that), to the honest-to-goodness spy shots that a brand begs us not to post on the homepage. And it gets even more complicated when there are embargoes involved or if an editor already has the information on that bike...

Episode 51 sees Kazimer, Brian Park, James Smurthwaite, and myself talk all things spy shots. We explain how embargoes work, how we cordon off an editor who already has information in the event of a pre-embargo spy shot, and the ethics of whether we should be posting spy shots at all. Spoiler alert: the answer is hell yes, but listen to the podcast to hear our take on this sometimes thorny topic.

As always, hit us up in the comments to tell us what you think. Should we be posting spy shots of yet-to-be-released bikes, or should we be keeping those photos to ourselves until brands give us the green light?

March 4th, 2021

Has anyone seen where I left my telephoto lens?

Hosted by Mike Levy (usually) and featuring a rotating cast of the editorial team and other guests, the Pinkbike podcast is a weekly update on all the latest stories from around the world of mountain biking, as well as some frank discussion about tech, racing, and everything in between.

Previous Pinkbike Podcasts
Episode 1 - Why Are Bikes So Expensive?
Episode 2 - Where the Hell is the Grim Donut?
Episode 3 - Pond Beaver Tech
Episode 4 - Why is Every Bike a Trail Bike?
Episode 5 - Can You Trust Bike Reviews?
Episode 6 - Over Biked Or Under Biked?
Episode 7 - Wild Project Bikes
Episode 8 - Do We Need an Even Larger Wheel Size?
Episode 9 - Why Are We Doing a Cross-Country Field Test?
Episode 10 - Getting Nerdy About Bike Setup
Episode 11 - Are We Going Racing This Year?
Episode 12 - What's the Future of Bike Shops?
Episode 13 - Are Bikes Too Regular Now?
Episode 14 - What Bikes Would Pinkbike Editors Buy?
Episode 15 - What's Holding Mountain Biking Back?
Episode 16 - Who's Your Mountain Biking Hero?
Episode 17 - XC Field Test Insider
Episode 18 - Electronics on your Mountain Bike: Good or Bad?
Episode 19 - The Hardtail Episode
Episode 20 - MTB Conspiracy Theories
Episode 21 - Stuff We Were Wrong About
Episode 22 - Does Your Riding Style Match Your Personality?
Episode 23 - Grim Donut 2 is Live!
Episode 24 - Why Even Buy a DH Bike?
Episode 25 - Fall Field Test Preview
Episode 26 - The Three Most Important Mountain Bikes
Episode 27 - The World Champs Special
Episode 28 - All About Women's Bikes
Episode 29 - Freeride or Die
Episode 30 - Would You Rather?
Episode 31 - Wet Weather Riding Tips & Tricks
Episode 32 - What Needs to Change in the Bike Industry?
Episode 33 - Behind the Scenes at Pinkbike Academy
Episode 34 - Grilling Levy About Field Test Trail Bikes (and His Bonspiel)
Episode 35 - Story Time - Stranger Than Fiction
Episode 36 - Grilling Kazimer about Field Test Enduro Bikes
Episode 37 - The 2020 Privateer Season with Ben Cathro
Episode 38 - Editors Defend Their 2020 Best-Of Picks
Episode 39 - Predicting the Future of Mountain Biking
Episode 40 - The Pinkbike Awards!
Episode 41 - Racing Rumours and Team Changes
Episode 42 - Mountain Biking's Guilty Pleasures
Episode 43 - Dangerholm's Wildest Custom Mountain Bikes
Episode 44 - Mountain Bike Suspension Decoded
Episode 45 - What Makes a Good Riding Buddy
Episode 46 - Episode 46 - The RockShox Zeb vs Fox 38 Deep Dive
Episode 47 - High Pivot Bikes: The Good, The Bad, and The Why?
Episode 48 - Rides That Went Horribly Wrong... & Why That Made Them So Good
Episode 49 - What's the Best DH Bike?
Episode 50 - Are Bikes Actually Getting Less Expensive? (Value Bike Field Test Preview)

Author Info:
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Member since Oct 18, 2005
2,032 articles

  • 69 0
 I thought spy shots were a creative form of marketing that brands used to create interest before releasing a new product.
  • 16 0
  • 11 2
 Yes. The correct question is: should Pinkbike take part in Gorilla Marketing techniques?
  • 12 44
flag scott-townes FL (Mar 4, 2021 at 12:03) (Below Threshold)
 Pinkbike knows this. They're creating a BS podcast episode to draw more interest. That's all.
  • 3 0
 @Jvisscher: they’re only aping other MTB content providers
  • 43 5
 Just to be clear to anyone, I don't work for any brand out there. I take a pic, post it, sit back and enjoy the comments.

PS. NSMB *blocks* my comment on their site, figures.
  • 3 0
 @Jvisscher: That's up to them but I'm here to read about bikes
  • 8 1
 @tonkatruck: Thank you!
  • 1 0
 @tonkatruck: just curious, what day of the week was that pic shot?
  • 8 2
 @lumpy873: It was the day the earth stood still.....
  • 2 0
 @tonkatruck: LOL!

I only ask because if I was riding something I don't want to be seen, I would avoid the trailhead on a weekend.. So, if that was a Saturday or Sunday the guy wasn't thinking about keeping a new bike a secret.. A less busy day of the week would be better to ride not for public eyes bikes..
  • 2 0
 @goflowz: so, take a prototype bike out on a Saturday and then be surprised when someone sees it? Yeah, he got a bunch of flack at the office.. My schedule usually means I ride solo during the week, so I could almost guarantee if I was on a prototype, it's not getting seen..
  • 3 0
 @tonkatruck: actually you secretly work for Little Ceasars and Nissan.
  • 55 0
 Coming from the auto industry, it's the companies responsibility to protect their IP. Why are your employees driving around with unreleased bikes on an exposed rack? It should be inside and covered so it's not visible. If it's not ready for it to be seen then the company needs to put policies and practices in place to protect that. If they need to test on trails they should either build their own similar to automotive test tracks or minimize risk by utilizing trails during periods or minimal use. If you're not willing to protect your IP then it sorta shows how much it's valued.
  • 20 0
 I remember a Trek rep referring to a prototype as the "night bike." Protecting IP can be that easy.
  • 7 0
 Trek managed to keep their new XC race bike "hidden" all year while racing it on the World Cup circuit. All is takes is some simple covers to be made if you really don't want the secrets to be seen.
  • 6 0
 Exactly. Who the f*ck thought it was a good idea to ride a bike they didn't want anyone to see at one of the most popular riding and bike nerd havens in the World!!

"Lets test it at Seymour, that way we can say it was North Shore tested... what could go wrong?!"

And then leave it on a bike rack and park it at Parkgate where all of those same bike nerds hang out pre/post ride.... give your head a shake Devinci... that was just too stupid.
  • 8 0
 @baulz: yep and so did cannondale when they developed the lefty ocho. they literally 3d printed fake dual crown to attach to the lefty fork so people wouldn't notice.
  • 2 0
 this. so much this. this is the beginning, middle and end of the issue!

TLDR: don't hate the player, hate the game! protect yo neck fool!
  • 1 0
 Yup. This. I grew up riding dirt bikes as well, and the spy shots used to be through a hole in the fence with a zoom lens when the factory was test riding on their private test track. And they ran them in these things called magazines, and they totally relied on marketing dollars from manufacturers then too.

It’s silly everyone acting like this is some thing that just started happening. Been happening for decades, and the manufacturers only keep the pics from existing when they actually don’t want to hear details to leak. Ahem...RN-01...
  • 36 2
 I completely agree with the point of view of pinkbike and I think their policy for handling any undisclosed product (nda etc.) Is pretty spot on. Actually I think media would be less interesting without spyshots & speculation.

Thanks pinkbike for doing as you do!
  • 12 0
 I agree as well. I enjoy the articles on nsmb but it was interesting to see their position regarding spy shots. For some strange reason, those guys are really butt hurt about the whole thing. But, maybe that's their schtick - to be the high-brow gentlemen upholding the hallowed inside bro-culture, while painting PB'ers as degenerates. There's definitely a sense of disdain towards the PB community in general on nsmb - it's actually kinda pathetic. Everyone's just keen on bikes.
  • 12 0
 @jaydubmah: It's pretty strange. NSMB seems to make a concerted effort to position themselves as an outlet that tells readers the 'real truths' that the industry would rather they didn't know, or whatever.

From memory, they've had fairly frequent articles about stuff like how to keep old bikes with old standards relevant, alternative drivetrains, how to make a low-spec bike perform better for less than the cost of a higher spec bike, etc. and they've got that guy (I like his articles, FWIW) that seems to mention that he rides a rigid singlespeed or whatever it is in just about every piece that he writes.

It's a weird departure that they'd now argue that it is the role of the media to withhold information from consumers in order to maximize the industry's profits on existing product.
  • 24 1
 As someone who has been on the industry side and in the shops, yeah it sucks a little, but its part of the game. If the manufacturer of this bike is upset, is should be at the person that left the bike on a bike rack in a parking lot in plain site.

As for the NSMB rant, that photo was on a forum the day before PB posted it.. I think its a bit of sour grapes that they didn't get an email..

There's always going to be manufacturer and media relationships within a given industry.. And sometimes the manufacturers don't like what is published and complain. An old boss of mine would freak out on the magazines that our product was great, but a little heavier than the competition. He would be calling, threatening to pull ads, the whole nine yards.. And me as a salesman just said, "Well, they are right.. And that's the only negative they had, so its not that bad.."

On the shop side, we don't know how far that off the actual production model is.. There's always that customer who says, " I hear the new one is coming next year.." Even when the new one just came out.. There's always something new coming.. That's the nature of the world.

I like the spy shots and speculation too...
  • 14 1
 I had assumed that NSMB was a) trying to score some quick points at PB's expense, and b) trying to run some interference for a bud who rolled up to what is probably one of the busiest trailheads in the world with a bike on their car that a manufacturer wanted kept under wraps.
  • 4 0
 @4823904823041: they reposted the spy shot in question--twice
  • 3 0
 @4823904823041: after reading the article on NSMB, it seems like the guy riding that bike got some flack and vented to Cam.. He says he knows the guy that was riding that bike.

Now, if PB was actively looking to get pictures of the prototype, it could ruffle some feathers.. But, this is another rider who shot the picture in a public place. No different than a race or a lift line.. If you're riding something that's not supposed to be seen, it's your responsibility to hide it..
  • 22 0
 Listening to some of the discussion on the previous podcast (upcoming budget bikes) had me thinking on a type of content for you guys to do once WBP opens up (or realistically might have to do in the fall/next year when bikes are available) - At one point, one of the Mikes asked Brian (I think) about how much better the 13k bike was than say, the 3k bike. I think it would be really cool and informative to get some of Pinkbike's faster employees who have a bit of racing experience under their belt - say Christina and perhaps the new guy, Tom - to get a company that makes a super broad price range of bikes on the same platform and spend a bit of time getting used to the platform, and then do a couple stages in the park on repeat between a mid price point offering and an identical platform superbike within the same lineup. Good options would be something like the Stumpjumper Comp Alloy (about 4k CAD) and the Pro or S-Works (10600 and 15k, respectively), or perhaps the Norco Sight. A Sight A3 runs $4200 and a Sight C1 runs $9300 or so.

The budget bike reviews are really cool and in particular the budget field tests are an excellent addition to the site, but this would allow us to see some real, top quality bro-science difference between the bike that a lot of us buy, and the fancy one in the Catalogue close to what a pro-racer would actually ride. Are we 10% faster? 20? ....5? Is the difference tiny on a blue trail versus a much bigger gap on a demanding double black? Bro-science it up!
  • 2 0
 Edit - I'm aware that the Stumpy alloy and Carbon aren't identical platforms - but close enough
  • 4 0
 My prediction is I really don't think there would be a huge difference in a test situation. The biggest difference is higher end kit is more reliable in the long term, has weight savings for long days in the saddle, and the suspension allows you to push harder by offering more grip and control. For that last point, I don't think you would be able to measure the increase in grip and control in a back to back test. It's more something a rider takes time to get used to a learn how far they can push their equipment. I agree though, I would definitely be interested in the test!
  • 1 0
 Hey well it's just an idea - if they run with it I'd have to assume they'd supplement the idea with their own expertise on how to make bike media and test bikes properly - they know a lot more about that than I do. Hopefully spending some time on each bike beforehand will provide enough time to flesh out some more of the differences, and perhaps the timed testing would only become a smaller portion of the total test. But it would give us some cool bro-science data and let us make the statement like "spending an additional 4000 dollars made us 11% faster on In Deep in these conditions on that day". I think it would be a pretty fun bit of content.

The testers would of course be free to comment on stuff like "the bike felt lighter and nicer under me, even though that doesn't show on the clock" or "the improved ergonomics made me much happier spending time on the million dollar bike" and be a valuable portion of the content.
  • 8 0
 Absolutely something we should do. My semi-informed prediction is that the biggest difference would be in pulling the extra 8lb or whatever uphill. And while you might gain a few minutes on the climbs, the descending differences would be in the 0.5% range at best—like, maybe 1 second over a 4 minute descent. All assuming they both have good tires.
  • 2 0
 Do you think manufacturers would sign up to that though? I think we all know how little difference it would make on timed runs and I think they know that too. Would they agree to send bikes if they know it will prove their money makers aren't worth it? Perhaps I'm being too cynical.
Of course there's a lot more desirable parts on more expensive versions that factor into the feel etc and people will always want the latest and greatest.
  • 1 0
 I'd them to test a high end carbon model Vs a base level alloy model then swap all the components and see if the frame material actually makes much difference.
  • 21 0
 The better question might be why aren't reviewers keeping these bikes hidden in a van for transport. I might notice the brand sticker on a bike I see riding in the woods, but if I'm driving down I-5 South I can tell you the brand of chain on each of the 4 bikes on that Northshore rack traveling North 6 lanes away.
  • 8 0
 damn, sounds like my contact prescription might be a bit out of date
  • 14 0
 For sure! Nothing wrong with a little paparazzi for bike nerds.
  • 9 0
 Media/Publications/news and all that should have a duty to the people/consumers if they are aligned with the manufacturers then that’s not media/publications/news that’s just advertisement

  • 13 1
 We do, and it means we’re doing something right when brands are miffed (which often happens) about the prototype photos and speculation we post Smile Judging by the general responses here, it’s NSMB that needs to start giving people what they want. But I guess that’s too TMZ, they say. And here I feel silly for loving all the car prototype photos that I LOVE looking at haha
  • 5 0
 @mikelevy: I read that NSMB article too and was a little surprised by their stance on it. Maybe they rely on advertising dollars more since they are a smaller site so they are swayed by the industry whereas Pinkbike has greater pull and can do as it pleases. The whole segregated tech editor embargo seems very fair and impartial as well. What else do they want!?

Also if a spy photo of a bike gets out, it’s practically free focus group discussion/arm chair analysis/new things to improve etc for the company.

Speaking of car prototype photos, that new Porsche Taycan Sport tourismo with the Porsche Design e-bikes on the back, when’s the review coming!?
  • 8 0
 Its unavoidable. Back in the day I remember working on a design team for McLaren F1 livery. Literally walking across the pit lane with a presentation book in hand showing some ideas to McLaren design team, paparazzi snapped a picture of the book from a long, long way away. It was impressive TBH. While they didnt get a glimpse of the car, it was a stark reminder of how hard it is to keep this stuff secret.
  • 7 0
 Is a spy shot any different than say, a patent document? If the item is publicly shown (i.e., a bike in a public parking lot), the public will probably run with it.

It does get complicated if a publisher publishes a picture of something that hasn't been filed for protection. That could be considered a public disclosure and the manufacturer then only has 1 year to file for protection. After that, it may be considered to be in the public domain. So, a spy shot could put a manufacturer in a bind by rushing development.
  • 8 0
 Man, I love seeing spy shots! Especially the ones where the linkage is partially obscured and we're all guessing at what it is. Lower quality the better, it adds to the DRAMA. And we all love drama.
  • 6 0
 Hey! How hard could it be to put duck tape all over it, you red green show. But for real, there's even bike covers sold at Canadian tire www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/ccm-water-resistant-bike-cover-0737383p.html?rrec=true#spc ... This is just...
  • 9 0
 Yes. If it's seen in the wild, someone failed-or did their job.
  • 5 3
 I've actually never seen even one 'spy shot" in the MTB media. A spy shot is an image that someone broke confidentiality to disclose, under actual or presumed threat of punishment if caught.

a photo of a proto frame getting laps at whistler by a top 10 rider in the world is NOT A SPY SHOT.
  • 4 0
 When a auto manufacturer is driving a pre-production vehicle with the crazy digital wrap, they consider it a spy shot.. So, a bike in a lift line would be much the same..
  • 3 0
 I kinda don't get the upset on the part of Devinci in this one circumstance. High pivot curious folk are more likely to wait on that Dreadnought or Kavenz than people looking for the current Spartan are.
  • 4 2
 I admit that I don't know any of the behind the scenes details, but in light of seeing the original post, comments, article in question discussed here, and the podcast here are my thoughts... I think that the misplaced anger argument is valid, though in this case Idon't think it has much to do with the companies or journalism. In this case it feels like the anger is directed at the infiltration of a TMZ mindset, which can be summed up as someone having total disregard for common decency, crawling underneath of a vehicle to take a picture of a bike that some one or some company may or may not be trying to hide. I like the spy shots, and love seeing things leaked out at races etc. But I feel like in this case things feel different, it just feels wrong. I respect Pinkbike's position and feeling it's their journalistic duty to report on new tech, and I would agree with that position. My beef has been with the original posters methods of coming across said content. Never mind that he was begging for money in the comments afterwards. I think it's that behavior that gained the reaction toward pinkbike not the spy shot in and of itself. We like to think of ourselves as a small close-knit community, especially those of us that remember the early days when it was a small close knit community. We as humans fear change because sometimes change is not for the better, and I think this instance brought that fear out.
  • 3 0
 If you have a bike in public then expect it to get photographed. As others have said it’s easy to keep them secret as many brands manage. Personally I think brands do it deliberately as part of the pr / marketing
  • 2 0
 @mikekazimer @mikelevy There is actually a trail bike that you can remove the motor/battery from and pedal like a normal bike:

I really think these types of bikes are perfect for those who want to sometimes ride an e-bike and sometimes still analog pedal but but can't afford/justify two nicely spec'd carbon trail bikes. This is the future of a hybrid class of bikes. Will also let people go knock out a couple solo e-laps before work on a Wednesday and then pull the motor/battery out for the social ride with analog friends on Saturday.
  • 2 0

The point is, what will pinkbike do to get spyshots.. Is there a new generation of paparazzi coming, cashing in enormous sums for crude shots of unimportant versions of another new bicycle?
  • 3 0
 Do you think the recent Spesh Status release with social media before the regular outlets is the new way bike brands may go to generate interest?
  • 12 0
 Everything about that launch is weird.
  • 2 0
 @brianpark: the fact it doesn't even exist on the Spesh website anymore makes it even more strange...its like it never was
  • 2 0
 @calicartel: its on Cannondale web named Habit
  • 4 0
 @calicartel, it's right here: statusmtb.bike
  • 1 0
 @mikekazimer: I think the Status is probably just a catalogue frame Specialized agreed to slap their brand on. With MTB exploding during covid, it was probably a good business move. My other theory is that they wanted a cheap bike in their lineup, but didn't want to canibalize Stumpy Evo and Enduro sales. Kind of like how Chevy never said much about the SS, because they had a bunch of Holden frames but didn't want to cut into Camaro and Vette sales.
  • 4 0
 @brianpark: there's also something weird about the pinkbike review of the status too.

@mikelevy: when are you going to talk about the bike you *did* pull off the site?
  • 1 0
 Interesting discussion guys (even if there was a bit of deja vu to previous pods) and I think I pretty much agree with PB's policy on this. However it is a bit of an echo chamber discussion. Would have been good to have some different opinions from shop managers, brand managers, or even NSMB on too.
  • 2 0
 @peterknightuk as a former shop manager, spy shots never bothered me because they just excited the most loyal customers of a brand. Official releases of next year's product at Sea Otter drove me nuts because I saw many occasions where it caused folks to delay a purchase - leaving me with inventory on the floor that I'd later have to discount. Usually we would have no knowledge that the model line was being refreshed when we had to book that preseason order in August. For context, I'm in the northern United States, so people would not typically buy bikes in winter as they were occupied by snow sports.
  • 1 0
 ehhh the pinkbike policy is reasonable and I don't think they've done anything unethical here, but I don't actually care about spyshots and I kind of agree with the point that it smells like TMZ. If it's popular and generates clicks then I get why pinkbike would run it but there's an opportunity to be classy here and I'd rather see reviews of gear that pinkbike editors can actually test.
  • 1 0
 Alright fellers I've got a 'budget' challenge for you. I just went through all this and eventually was successful but it took some doing. Should be easier for you based on where you live.

Goal: full suspension that fits you reasonably well. You are Of course allowed to upgrade it after purchase but the goal is to have a rideable, reliable bike for the listed price, you can buy complete or piece it together it's up to you. But keep it reasonable, the real world doesn't have 8 sets of carbon wheels and 37 forks kicking around to choose from haha.

Budget: $1500CDN, $1200USD, $900GBP

Limits: bike must be within a day trip of you, so let's say 400KM/250MI. Any further you have to pay shipping so subtract $300CDN, $240USD, $170GBP.

I think this will really appeal to people looking to upgrade or enter the sport through the used market. In my case I was going from a hardtail, so I did have a good set of brakes and used 34 I had bought and ran on the hardtail last season.

Have fun!
  • 1 0
 Keep posting them!

I wonder if a radical model change like the high pivot Devinci will cause people to wait for the new one because they want a high pivot, or go buy the old one quicker because they don't. Seems like it might be a wash?
  • 5 0
  • 5 1
 you could use the spy shots as blackmail, easy reverse advertising money
  • 4 1
 Post em up, keep the people/industry guessing, keep if fun, remember after all it's just bikes.
  • 1 0
 I intentionally waited for the V2 Sentinel to come out before buying a V1 in order to get a sale price. It wasn't based on a spy shot, more on an expectation from 3 years without an update.
  • 1 0
 This. Exactly. I also think a small percentage of bikers make purchase decisions based on spy shots. It is mostly about refresh cycle. I love the spy shots!
  • 4 0
 YES of course.
  • 4 0
  • 2 0
 I cannot wait for Levy's review of this new shimano pedal that was hinted at this whole podcast
  • 1 0
 If a company rider has a prototype bike on the back of a car on a bike rack, they should have a bike convert over it if they are serious about keeping it from spy shots.
  • 2 0
 It’s also possible consumers might not purchase the competition’s 2021 bike, and wait for their leaked prototype..
  • 1 0
 When I see a new 2022 spyshot, I just think about all of the well specced lightly used 2021's popping up for 45% off msrp on the used market
  • 1 0
 There's belly-lint in my eyes from all this navel-gazing. PB is not Bellingcat. No one's going to die. We're all gonna be fine. It's just bikes, ffs...
  • 1 0
 Was kinda hoping they'd answer how they would feel and handle it if it was a PB tester on an unreleased bike getting their photo taken
  • 1 0
 Memba when Pb posted the dreadnought a long time ago in a lift line and no one got all butt hurt or brought up the ethics of “spy shots?” I memba.
  • 1 0
 Regarding chainstay length, Pole Evolink in size S has longer chainstays than reach (455 CS/450 R)
  • 1 0
 So, if get a photo of @mikelevy riding a new secret bike, should I email it to pinkbike or nsmb?
  • 2 0
 Try TMZ first!
  • 1 0
 Whenever I see "spy shot" with Mountain bikes, it always brings up the memories of MBA covers with reported secrets inside!
  • 2 0
 So many great MBA memories. My first sight of a mountain bike was Robby Rupe's 9" travel monster on the front of an MBA in what feels like 1953, but I think it was more like '94? Not sure.
  • 1 0
 You just talked about nsmb for a whole podcast. Most publicity for them in a long time. Well played nsmb
  • 1 0
 Orange literally brand there prototypes on the downtube as "STRANGE"
  • 4 0
 It's the only way to tell they're prototypes
  • 1 0
 @boozed: true though there was a strange long travel version of the st4 which didn't at all look like an orange
  • 1 0
 The podcasts are great @mikelevy get Christina Chappetta on here too!!
  • 1 0
 Love the beef. Now hoping for some dis tracks to be released.
  • 2 0
 My second career as a Soundcloud rapper?
  • 2 0
 @mikelevy: You already have the tattoos...
  • 2 1
  • 1 1
 Spoiler alert, i dont care about spy shots....
  • 3 3
 Hey hey hey ! Whats this all about ?
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