The Pinkbike Podcast: Episode 85 - Is the Red Bull Rampage Too Slopestyle?

 This. And it still doesn't matter to me either way. And its still bonkers. And I still love all of it, and every run, and all the dudes participating. Thinking back on what seemed nuts the first time I attended (Oakley sender in 2012), compared to what is NOW pushing the limit of "big or gnarly" is staggering. Size and exposure and risk. This shit is completely insane, but yes... different than it used to be and/or than is my favorite thing to see personally (like riding something so steep and rough that you would think it would take a mountain climber to traverse).

 I think it's a great excuse to add another rampage type competition, titled "rampage classic". Only 1 build day, using a rusty rake.

 @cky78 that's absolutely true. One thing I lost sleep over last night is that I didn't talk about how the creativity and rawness doesn't need to go away as things get more precise at Ramapage—it just moves over to videos. All these riders have the opportunity to go and shoot wild, creative videos with super raw lines, and many of them do. That's why Brage's the most popular man in freeride right now and I love it.

@kcy4130: hah that's an amazing idea.

 Buuut...mountain biking is not what it used to be and neither are the riders. I'm not sure you could re-create that early Rampage feel and, though I loved it, I'm not sure they should. The boundaries of the athletes and the bikes have broadened so much and what it means to bike for many have shifted too (I've just offended someone who has recently used the #264life). All sports have been through it and I think if you get hung up on the nostalgia of something you miss out on enjoying the way it is currently sometimes. Absolutely I loved the Rampage's of the past... while also feeling this growing uneasiness around the safety of the riders. I'm excited to see what this years event brings and I hope all of the riders can stay safe. It is amazing though when we get a taste of that excitement and rawness of the earlier events... like the Brage edit! That video for me captured so much of that feel of early rampage.

 @kcy4130: They should have multiple events and one should be a jam style very little digging event in green river or big water

 bigger tricks on bigger air off bigger takeoffs into bigger better landings has always been the direction of rampage but I really feel as if this evolution was accelerated when rampage took on this new venue. the original venue had a lot of opportunities for "old school" freeride, ie a gnarly albeit smaller drop into wheel-dragging-ly steep dirt. this venue is honestly usually a bit too f*cked up for even that, so riders have built a lot of their own features.

 @kcy4130: No build, no pre-ride, one run, ride it as you see it.

 @kcy4130: Absolutely - would love to see a 2 or 3 day multi-event go down here, maybe add on a total unbuilt free-ride event or a single DH -style line that's time (or both). Lots more could be done that would be oldschool but done mod-style.

 I would say Rampage is Slopstyle but it’s not Freeride anymore! I will be watching some of my old Rampage DVDs this weekend

 I think a big problem people have is that want to see a ton of uncontrolled terrain and don't really care when they're watching from their computer screens if people get hurt. None of these riders want to get hospitalized, and people were falling like f*cking crazy in the early rampage days. Sure it's entertaining, but shit I don't blame anyone for wanting to make a nice controlled groomed landing. They're still sending gnarly shit, and I'm sure zero people who preach "freeride4lyfe" in these comment sections are feasibly attempting any of what these athletes attempt on their groomed stuff. Scale is obviously lost when watching playback from our computer screens.

I also think people tribalistically want to see their favorite freeriders win and hate when the slopestyle guys are capable of doing slopestyle AND winning this. I think it's fine to have your own preferences, but I think it's annoying as shit to discount that slope guys like Brandon are also huge f*cking free riders. It's not like Brandon's never rode big mountain stuff before dude literally committed his life to riding shit like this and it's a hard pill for people to swallow to know that he can crossover between both disciplines and be at the top. It's not like the other more "big mountain" riders there are like "yeah brandons shit is weak" no they definitely celebrate when he does gnarly stuff and have no problem acknowledging that the guy goes big. Why cant you people do the same?

I also hate the term big mountain. What the hell does that even mean? Like sliding left and right on shale on a volcano face on your bike? lol. We ride trails people, this was never a competition to highlight some purist form of what you think freeride is. Northshore gave me free ride personally, and to me it was always taking a trail bike or downhill bike and doing something else on it that wasnt racing. Hell f*cking yeah that meant doing huge tricks in the woods with your friends.

 the evolution of nuts sounds like a 3rd nut is the next step

 @jarrod801: haha right on

 @nvranka: lol look at that a gatekeeper showin up like clockwork.

 I think part of the reason this event progressed the way it has is because nobody could find a proper venue in another area of the globe. I remember talking to wade simmons back in 05-06 during rampages hiatus and he and other riders had been scouting with redbull for a completely different location (I remember him mentioning alaska was looked at among a few) and nothing was found. So with the same general location and the progression of tricks and slopestyle things naturally shifted in that direction. I would imagine if there was several different locations around the globe the riding might have not allowed for the level of refinement we’re seeing now, and therefore more “natural” line choices.
That being said I think where this is going, current rampage allows the sport to showcase a type of riding that is only possible on a mountain bike.
Riding a knife edge ridgeline, down a insane fall line chute into a tailwhip or 360 off a 25ft drop… bmx/slopestyle tricks on moto sized natural (okay, somewhat natural *subjective*) drops/jumps. No other two wheeled sport or athletes could do it and I think that is the f*cking raddest thing ever!

 @brycepiwek: Bingo! The feasibility as an event is a key factor. Few locations in the world with such terrain are accessible, especially for such a production.

 @pourquois-pas: When it come to locations people also forget weather, hard rain could borderline cancel the event. You need an area with super low precipitation chance.

 Tell me you want to see someone get hurt without saying you want to see someone get hurt.

 @ridingsteeps: down vote for using a social media meme.

 @vapidoscar: This might come as shock to you but you just made this comment on a social media platform. Gasp!

 Yup, big tricks = views = money for Red Bull.

 We're not big defenders of Red Bull. There are lots of legitimate criticisms (eg you heard me talk about the previous lack of insurance for riders, and we've talked before about the lack of prize money, the broadcast quality, angles, etc.), but we also respect the judges and the event creators a lot.

The judges aren't slopestyle kids, they're OG freeriders who know what's up. They aren't going to award points based on popularity—if they did they'd have scored Brendan's 2017(?) run much higher. Or that year when someone did a million flips down the mountain and got "robbed" they had to have known that it was a hugely crowd-pleasing run but it didn't score all that high because they know what's up.

 How do you defend the unequal build times and line choice? Just from a fairness perspective. Have you been vocal about it?It’s an old venue, Clearly wasn’t dismantled so there’s a distinct advantage given to all the returning riders. You can hear it throughout the interviews despite the editing, self and otherwise. Uh yeah pretty much the same line as 17 but more tricks, bigger bench cuts and safer run outs…fine for a promotional event but a piss poor way to run a competition. Especially as Sorge put it, one that’s half won with the digging.
Ps something tells me the way those old sites are not restored might have something to do with the denied access to new areas. Unless they did unlimited sandbags with desert patina this year. @brianpark:

 @graniteandrew: yep I'm pretty sure I mention that in the podcast that it's pretty unfair to first time riders and non-locals. I am fine with the tricks and packed landings, but definitely don't love some other aspects of Rampage—the things that make it more spectacle than competition.

 @graniteandrew: It sounds like they had a fresh new venue, but it fell through last minute and they had to resort back to this old venue.

 So when’s the opinion piece on why rampage isn’t a fair competition going to drop? Funny how things go one way editorially, easy to attack people rightly pointing out its more like a slopestyle course than ever before, but nothing about structural defects in the comp? @brianpark:

 What a douchebag statement.

Is there something wrong with a fair competition?

Did I miss something in the event materials? If that’s how it has to be just call it a promo event and be done with the pretense.

At least a slopestyle contest is fair to all riders. @ridingsteeps:

 @graniteandrew: What, are you 12? Life aint always fair my guy. I'm sure whining on bike forum will totally make everything more fair though.

 @brianpark: This is super fun to me - didn't actually realize other readers / Rampage viewers thot Fairclough got robbed before 2019 (didn't pay attention to media about it then). I did think the risk of that canyon - backflip or not - with the line being basically parallel vs. a large vertical line change, was easily the single most ridiculous move in all of Rampage history. That with that raw chute & The Rock (he hit that right?)...

Robbed. But yeah I know its just judging and yes there's a ranking system, but Jebus H - that canyon flip, I think, may be the single sickest most high risk move ever up there. Maybe I'm wrong...

 @Mtn-Goat-13: i believe another rider backflipped a similar size canyon gap back in 2013. Look up red bull top 20 moments.

 @RideThicccBC: I recall & actually was trying to find who did that (?)...but that was a smaller canyon at this years site maybe? Anyway - I've never thought anyone got robbed so much as that Fairclough 2019 line but also, its not that bigga deal. Everyone of these MFs is an ultimate freeride god, even if they wipe out...hence the bummer about Brage's bust before the event. Quoting Kaz - ultimately "its just f*cking bikes" and I agree. Awesome, life inspiring, mind-bending... but even my comments are just banter & chicken-scratch.

 I agree lots of people don't mean it disrespectfully and there's totally some valid criticism in there, but there are also a lot of folks who just want to see sketchy shit and people rolling the dice over and over falling down a mountain. And I think that lack of regard for riders' health is disrespectful. Again not everyone is doing that, but I do get that vibe sometimes when people want to bring it back to the "good" old days.

 @brianpark: I agree with @mt36 Brian, I don't think your read on the comments is correct. I think the courses now are more dangerous, there is probably less crashing, but when it happens it's going to be much more consequential....these modern courses scare me much more than any of the older stuff.

When I (personally) say I like the older style of riding, it's due in part to my belief that it's SAFER....I lived through the early days of "freeride" moto to what we have today....it's cool, but much bigger injuries as a result...I see MTB going down a sim path....

 @brianpark: The basics of freeriding is finding something to huck off of. Rampage was the epitome of that. The basics of slopestyle is building jumps and features to throw tricks off of. Rampage has now become a lot more like that. Some of us miss the old days.

It's pretty disappointing your associating nostalgia for OG Rampage as wishing harm on the riders. It's not like making jumps bigger makes them safer?

 @stiingya, in the old days riders didn't know how to throw tricks off big drops, and now they do. Dig through the archives and you'll find old videos of Schley trying to learn how to spin, Gracia pulling a mini-flip, etc... The sport has evolved since those early days - more riders than ever have big bags of tricks. If someone has the skills to flip or spin off a huge drop, what's there to dislike?

 @RadBartTaylor: that's fair, the old events were safer-ish to a point. And I hope my read on some people's comments is wrong.

 @brianpark: Yea man, the sculpted jumps and landings for sure have to increase consistency of good, safe result, but like he said, f*cking up a 70ft. canyon gap that's 40-50ft. has extreme consequence. If Kelly slipped a pedal on the take off or something, that's all bad. Look what happened when he overshot that one the next year... his bike exploded into 15 pieces. Look at Andreu this week. That drop is beyond huge. And something he's probably done similar 1000 times in his life. But when it goes wrong, it goes real f*cking wrong.

Gee's 2010 run had what in it that could even be considered a trick of today's standard... the hip/bowl drop thing? But the rest of it was just flat out ridiculous, in technicality and speed. Which makes sense as something you'd expect from a Top 10 racer. There's an awe of that level of control and speed that's different from the awe of watching somebody do a flip-whip. Both equally impressive for totally different reasons.

 @mikekazimer: It's that there are all kinds of events that focus on tricks. Rampage was unique because it was about scouting the line and making minimal changes to hit that line. For sure if you could hit that line and throw in a trick it set you apart. But it was a Unique event because it was more about the line you rode.

It's still a unique event, I mean "build your own slopestyle in the mountains" is still an amazing thing and for sure there are still some natural lines in there. I'll be watching for sure.

But sorry, not gonna let go of my desire to see OG Rampage style of competition!

 @mikekazimer: nothing to dislike, nobody is saying that unless I am missing something? I don't like the idea of rampage turning into an arms race of bigger drops with bigger and riskier tricks. What stops it from turning into a double back flip off a 50 foot drop to win.....miss it and your toast? How about a more sustainable approach that rewards natural use of the terrain as a scoring criteria....may open up the door for guys that don't have a big back of tricks....win/win?

 @brianpark: I agree. Maybe not everyone out there respects the riders... I think their safety needs to be preserved to a reasonable degree. The flow and slopestyle features probably go a long way to that end.

 Hmm I'm probably guilty of lumping a lot of comments and commenters into one perspective to respond to, and maybe misrepresenting people's individual takes as a result. Something to work on.

This probably isn't the forum for my sociopolitical opinions, but I will say that we do generally root for the underdogs and love all the small, creative manufacturers/publications/brands/athletes that push the sport and make our jobs more interesting.

 @brianpark: ISorry came on a touch strong there. It is not newsworthy that different positions breed different opinions. We will see where I stand when my antifa promotion comes through though.

 Got me there haha

 @mikelevy: Maybe you could redesign it to have "Minus Negative Anti-Squat"?

 @sorryiamtheboss: Diddly-squat?

 @MuddyBrit @brianpark I'll be stealing that one for the marketing copy

 @MuddyBrit: Christ, that's good

 Rakes only Rampage would be absolutely sick.

 I seem to recall they had an even like that once... now they did let people spend some time with tools to keep things safe, add a little transition here, clear some landings, add a little lip here and there to clear a drop.

Not sure what happened to that event though... even had a catchy name so you'd think I'd remember what it was called...???

 Have you ever been to virgin?

 @stiingya: Just saying it is much different from what it looks like on camera.

 @NoahJ: I'm sure that's totally true. 99% of the time it's WAY more crazy in real life then what you can get out of it through pictures and videos and we all know GoPro seems to "flatten" everything a bit!

At this point my feeling is that probably more people want them building like this than doing old school technical lines and that's fine. Win some and you loose some! I do hope someone somewhere takes an opportunity to fill that niche though!

I'm for sure watching tomorrow and I do wish I would plan ahead and see it in person some day!!

 When I think of crashes the two that come to mind are: 1) Dave Watson cartwheeling into the abyss and 2) Rogatkin stopping everyone's heart collectively as he sluffed over the edge of the cliff. Honorable mention to Mark Matthews whose brutal crash I believe spurred forward a lot of the discussions on rider safety. If I'm honest- around that 2013 event it started to get harder to watch as the risk to the riders vs. the reward started to feel gross. So happy to Paul Bas enjoying riding again but what an brutal journey Rampage started for him. It is important to step back sometimes and remember these are real people who are gambling with real consequences that could change or end their lives.

 @snl1200: oh god, Mark Matthews' crash was so horrendous. Seriously made me feel sick.

 @snl1200: The fact that Rogatkin stood up from that and jumped back on his bike was insanity. There was a comment on PB at that time that said something along the lines of "i feel like I am watching a skydiving competition where the goal is to see who can pull their chute closer to the ground"

 @MuddyBrit - seems like there's been a ton of talk about that on the pods and the site, esp the part about it being discontinuous (or non-chronological) / edited / fabricated vs. a single moment in time like an event (and also the quality of those edits are an issue). Ya don't have to wait at all, but you can also reply a ton of former rampages (or any race / any style) and fully have the feel for that day, moment, chronology, skill levels, change of time, etc. Rampage is super concentrated and while I love all the edits too and don't really care about scores and rankings (til I do) the event playout is unlike any edit imaginable

It just seems completely unique in comparison and like many sport events - something that is truly honest, completely unscripted (as to outcomes) and something no one can predict beforehand. Dunno...just riffin', but it seems that the overall evolution of freeride (or even DH, XC, slopestyle, etc) is such a broad thing that edits & progression over time don't really compare to a single event like this (?)...maybe they do. I only wish Rampage lasted for days with some different events added on.

 @Mtn-Goat-13: I agree with all that - I wasn't trying to diminish how awesome an event Rampage is, it was more a response to people complaining about what Rampage ISN'T. Above all, though, I was just killing time because work is really boring me today!

 @MuddyBrit: I didn't think you were diminishing anything - no worries...just thought w/ all the podcasts I'd heard a good bit of talk about non-events (edits / compiled footage) and how that differs given how many fails a rider may actually have per awesome landing (or good footage). Just chatting really. But: heard. Mostly just like talking bikes here ...and avoiding work too!

 If you go and listen to TMac's interview on the Vital podcast, he talks about how Redbull had another site that was brand new, but due to issues with parking and some other problems, they couldn't get clearance from the state to do the event there. They had to pull the plug ~1 month prior, so they went back to a site that they had used before. This is why we are going to see a more slopey event because all the guys have had 10 additional days to dig, so stuff will naturally be in better shape. Hopefully for the next event they can resolve the issues they had this go around.

 @jaywindh: Makes sense, I hadn't heard about that. Thanks!

 @jaywindh: It will be interesting to see how next years event goes. Maybe they will have to add more build days for a new location so they can get next years event as built up as this years event?? At least here on PB it seems like there are more for this evolution then against...?

Can't argue with ratings...and I know I'll be watching!

 Sorry, no pod this week - we're currently in the middle of a Field Test and haven't been able to fit in a recording session yet. Those bikes won't ride themselves...

 @mikekazimer: I fig'd as much (all caps & gripes were just me BS'ing...would never actually gripe at staff). The pod has just become the most awesome thing I look forward to each week, addictively. Will just have to go back to former pods to get my fix

 @mikekazimer: I mean... if you needed a none-professional opinion of a mediocre rider... I could have ridden the bikes while you guys podcasted lol

 Sadly anger is what drives engagement on the internet. See the most recent Facebook debacle for proof. The recipe for news outlets nowadays is 1) get your audience outraged 2) let them argue in the comments thereby driving up time spent on the site which in turn increases how much they can charge advertisers 3) reap in the money of the sweet sweet ad revenue.

 OUCH, is all this stoking the Rampage issue just trying to keep us engaged to keep the Outside overlords happy... dang.

 @stiingya: Nay...same PB staff, same raw-ass Rampage event w/ just better, bigger, faster and more insane hits & lines. But even if it was - how would that make the "overlords" happy (as if anything else you buy / do / are involved in doesn't have actual overlords)... they don't have time for all this petty commentary - that's all on us...makes us happy

 You should check out Dylan Johnson's YouTube channel. He does videos that break a lot of misconceptions about mountain biking, while citing the scientific studies to back the claims up. He has a recent video which addresses the efficiency of locking out your suspension. The results are that there is essentially no benefit to it other than a perceived one. Makes you question the point of Live Valve and Flight Attendant. Here is a link: www.youtube.com/watch?v=BR10jYyJ4yE&t=1s . I would also suggest checking out some of his other videos like clips vs flats. It's one of my favorite YouTube channels.

 @smellycosby, the fact that Flight Attendant makes the suspension adjustments automatically means that the bike spent more time in different modes than it would have with TwinLoc. With Scott's system, I usually end up spending most of my time climbing in the middle "Traction" mode, and then open it up all the way for descents. On the Flight Attendant bike, the fork and shock mode would change multiple times on a climb, especially if there were smoother sections mixed in with chunkier bits. Overall, the FA system requires a little less thinking out on the trail than the TwinLoc system to accomplish similar results.

 @GBeard: Thanks was interesting video.

 @mikekazimer: I appreciate your reply to better understand the benefits, thanks!

 Exactly!

 They could have an event in green river of big water, that stuffs sick and they wouldn't even need to take out bushes etc.

 I know, it’s insane. I want to try a pair just to see what makes them so expensive. Might have to buy some Carhartt overalls for 1/5 of the price and see how they compare.

 @mikekazimer: genuinely would love to see them in some comparison or group test where you can either call them out or congratulate them for making an item of clothing that costs more than flights from London to Morzine and back

 There's a bunch of videos posted from the Cape Epic

  Memories!

 I talk shit about Reno as well

 @mikelevy: You should try riding there sometime. Turns out, it's not Vegas.

 Rose Hill is all houses now sadly.

 I try to keep it in check but let it slip a little bit there...

 You're wrong - I do not equate slopestyle with Rampage being too safe. That URL should have ended with 'slopestyle' but I guess I typed the wrong word while rushing. If you listened to the podcast, or read the article, you'd know that none of us feel that way

 @mikelevy: I know you don't. I was saying its silly to think that when other people say its too "Slopestype" to assume that it means they are saying its too Safe.
Literally the first words of the Podcast: "I think ultimately when people complain about it being too manicured (slopestyle) what they're really saying is its to safe."
Brian was equating the term to manicured (slopestyle) with too safe. Thats just not true. I think its the manicured nature of it that makes it less safe. they wouldn't be doing the 40+ft drops if it didn't have that landing. Finding a natural line that allows for a Twhip or wall ride or 360 is way more impressive to me, even if its "only" 15' high, than one on a groomed 30' drop.

I was wrong to tag you, I should've tagged Brian Park.

 No, that is 100% not possible.

 @mikelevy: How many seconds did you debate actually doing it lol

 What's wrong with joking about climate change? Just because I joke about aliens doesn't mean I don't know they're real. I have so many good plastic straw jokes ready for the next podcast!

 That was me, sorry.

 "Saying it looks like a slopestyle course, I believe, is accurate....saying it's smooth, I'd say that is a fact"

No, that's called an opinion. A poorly formed one because you haven't been there in person. You're only relying on photos and videos to form your opinion.

The only ones saying it looks like a slopestyle course are the ones who have never seen this in person. Without being overly insulting, you and the others making claims like this are simply ignorant with no understanding of how consequential, exposed and huge these hits are and a smooth landing doesn't negate that.

Claiming Rampage is like a slopestyle course is like saying Val di Sole is a flow trail because it has a couple of berms. But hey, maybe you know better than every legendary freerider and everyone else who has competed and participated at Rampage.

 @scott-townes: agreed. I went to the rampage site recently expecting to hit quite a few of the features. It’s so much bigger and scarier in person, and I pretty much left with my tail between my legs.

 @scott-townes: Dude your posts get kinda toxic, no reason for it.
To start, there are for sure still natural lines and drops being ridden. BUT, I don't have to have walked the course to see how much building has been done. We can all see the stacks of sandbags... We can all see the different dirt being used to build up some of the lines. That one elevated "white" berm jump transition honestly looks like concrete! Those are facts.

That doesn't take away from how extreme the lines are or how exposed they are and how dangerous this is. The riding is amazing.

Your opinion seems to be that it's not slopestyle because of where it's built and how extreme it is. But that has nothing to do with it. If you build a huge jump over rocks in Utah, or build a huge jump over smooth groomed downhill runs in BC, or build a huge jump out of plywood and scaffolding in a parking lot; you've still built a huge jump.

Honestly I don't think there is a black and white definition of how much building is still "freeride" and at one point you've built so much that it's "slopestyle". But that is the very correct point the OP is making here. My favorite color is green and that's not wrong...

 @stiingya: Don't you find it strange that yourself and the others hating on Rampage have never been in person? I mean the only ones hating on it have never been or ridden anything remotely close to the most basic parts of their lines.... Hmmmmmm.......

You say I'm being "toxic", I say I'm calling out clueless keyboard warriors on your BS. Its honestly hilarious how ignorant your guys' posts are and how unwilling you are to accept the views of literally everyone that's been there, those who have competed and those who have literally created freeriding.

This is just like watching weekend warriors ripping on the FWT guys because they're competing in untracked powder making the lines easier and less consequential to ride.

 @scott-townes: This! There are so many enduro bros out here who have never been to virgin and have noooo idea of how gnarly these "smooth flow tracks" are.

 @RadBartTaylor: I've seen many slope courses up close and have walked a lot of lines at multiple Rampages over the years.


Kinda like you're operating with way less information, huh?

 @scott-townes: so you agree with me....if some of us say the runs look more "slopestyle" and prefer less manicured lines, to you that somehow means we think the runs are less gnarly or somehow not worthy? Seems like you are projecting some drama that isn't there.....your getting wrapped around your own axle here bud...

@stiingya is spot on....

 @RadBartTaylor: LOL yeah, you guys have fun justifying your ignorance. Take a trip out to the Utah desert next time.

 @scott-townes: So tell us about your time riding Val di Sole. Cause as you say a person could not possibly have an opinion on Val di Sole unless you've been to Val di Sole.

right...

 There were plans for a new venue but they fell through. IMO this Rampage is infinitely better than no Rampage, and I think the next time around will be much more raw.

 @brianpark: Better than Jindabyne! www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSVcMoLBh0w

 @brianpark: something I would love to see and would be ok if it was behind a paywall. Buyer safety.basically make sure that the person selling you a BIKe actually mails you it. I know if be a lot of work but I'd today be worth it.

 Where's EP 86?

 @bot-fly: Ahhhh shit. We're at Field Test again right now, but we'll have one this week