THE EXPLAINER
Why Are We Using 12-Speed Drivetrains?
There’s one topic that’s almost guaranteed to earn a collective groan from mountain bikers everywhere: That the newest drivetrain that has yet one more gear. But despite comment sections filled with varying degrees of suspicion and discontent any time another cog is added to the stack, here we are in 2020 with 12-speed cassettes that I don’t think many of us were asking for...
So, what’s the deal with these 12-speed drivetrains? What did they give us, and what did they cost us?
SRAM, Shimano, and 12 CogsTo talk 12-speed, we'll first need to take one step backward to May of 2012 when SRAM released their 11-speed XX1 single-ring drivetrain. Clever mountain bikers around the globe had been building their own single-ring drivetrains for years, of course, but this was the first off-the-shelf, purpose-built system designed around just one chainring. Truth be told, SRAM's current Eagle 12-speed drivetrain is only possible due to solutions that were first proven by that XX1 11-speed setup. This includes the completely new rear derailleur that was designed around a single chainring, the narrow-wide chainring tooth shape that helps to keep the chain on, and the XD freehub that allowed for the 10-42 tooth cassette and its 420-percent range.
SRAM’s 11-speed drivetrain was around for four years when 12-speed XX1 was released in 2016 under the Eagle name. The new Eagle drivetrain offered a wild-for-the-time 50-tooth large cog and a 500-percent range. If 11-speed didn’t quite kill the front derailleur, SRAM’s 12-speed was the headshot that finished them off.
And you know the folks at Shimano weren’t just sitting on their hands during all this, right? Of course not, they were working on stuff the whole time; it just took ‘em a bit longer. In May of 2018, Shimano released their first 12-speed mountain bike group, XTR M9100. Why two years after SRAM? Well, they might disagree with my assessment, but to me it looks Shimano spent a lot of time and money working on their two- and three-ring front derailleur drivetrains while SRAM was beavering away on their single-ring systems. Shimano always had the best front shifting in the game, but I think we know how much that matters these days...
That new XTR 12-speed drivetrain included an all-new ‘Micro Spline’ freehub to allow for the 10-51 tooth cassette that offers a 510-percent range, a single-ring-specific derailleur, as well as a chain and all the other expected bits.
These days both SRAM and Shimano have added less expensive 12-speed drivetrains to their catalogs, but there are other ways to run 12 cogs, as well as a countless number of smaller companies offering range-expanding add-on cogs, derailleur modifications, and other things. But for this, we’re just gonna stick to the two big players: SRAM and Shimano.
What's the Difference Between 11-Speed and 12-Speed?Besides one cog and one click, 11 and 12-speed drivetrains differ by gearing range and tiny but very important measurements. Let’s look at their respective ranges first, which is how wide of a spread you’re getting with a single chainring. Also, we’re only comparing stock drivetrains here, not add-on bits that would further confuse my grade 8-level math skills.
SRAM’s 11-speed 10-42 cassette offered a huge-sounding 420-percent range in 2012, but that’s now dwarfed by the 500-percent range that their 10-50 tooth 12-speed cassette supplies. As their competitor, Shimano’s 12-speed drivetrain can be used with their 10-51 tooth cassette, one more tooth than SRAM, for a 510-percent range. Without a front derailleur and small granny ring, your range has to come from your cassette, of course, which is why cogs keep getting bigger on one end and smaller on the other.
That’s why we started with a 42-tooth large cog on that original 11-speed single-ring XX1 group, but its 420-percent range wasn’t quite wide enough for many riders. These days we have 50-something-tooth cogs that supply a range that topping 500-percent.
It’s the same on the opposite end of the stack, too, with the 10-tooth cog helping to make up for you not having a big chainring to shift into.
So many numbers, but there’s still a lot more to come: I know you guys are just dying to talk about chain width and cog spacing, right? Yeah, me too.
First, let’s go way back to 8-speed chains for some perspective - they were a full 7mm wide at the rivet, which is 2mm skinnier than a single-speed chain. A 9-speed chain is 6.5-7mm wide, while a 10-speed chain is 6mm wide. Chains meant to work with 11-speed drivetrains are 5.5mm wide, and 12-speed chains are the narrowest at 5.3mm at the rivet.
You probably know why chains have gotten skinnier as the number of cogs increased: SRAM and Shimano are squeezing more cogs into the same amount of space between the spokes and the frame, so the cogs have to be narrower and closer together. It doesn’t sound like there’s much difference between a 9-speed and 12-speed chain - it’s just a bit over a millimeter - but the two aren’t compatible at all. If you want to know more about chains,
this Explainer episode has got you covered.
Modern drivetrains are precise systems designed to work as complete ecosystems. If you used a 9 or 10-speed chain on a 12-speed drivetrain, you’d likely find that it works poorly; each click of the shifter moves the derailleur a very precise amount, and both the width and shape of that 12-speed chain is designed to interact with the 12-speed cogs and the very precise amount of space between them. 11, 10, 9, and 8-speed chains are too wide and will interfere with the neighbouring cogs, keeping it from shifting properly. I know this guy (okay, it might have been me) who installed an 11-speed chain on a 12-speed drivetrain, and yeah, it worked okay-ish as there’s just 0.2mm difference in chain width, but it was also noisier than usual and was never bang-on.
But can you go the other way? What happens when you use a 12-speed chain on an 11-speed drivetrain? Not much, to be honest, with it working just fine but feeling like it’s only 95% as good as it could be because the chain is a tiny bit narrower and doesn't interact with cogs as intended.
They definitely don’t like it when you do this, but you can also mix and match Shimano’s 12-speed components with those from SRAM. Their 12-speed shifters pull slightly different amounts of cable with each click - 3.65mm for SRAM and 3.5mm for Shimano - which means that pairing a shifter from one company with a derailleur from another isn’t quite ideal. But I do know this guy (yes, me again) who did exactly that and everything worked just fine. You can also play with chains, cassettes, cranks, and chainrings until you lose your mind.
Disclaimer time: all of the above works-ish, but you’ll always get the best results when you keep the ecosystems together as intended. Don't go blaming me (or the manufacturers) for your bad shifting or worn out parts.
What Did 12-Speed Give Us?So, why do they keep adding cogs, especially as everyone seems to get so mad when they do? And how come we’re up to twelve of them? The answer is pretty straightforward, and it has nothing to do with “planned obsolescence” or a secret derailleur cabal that runs the world. That’d be way more interesting. Below are the main reasons we have 12 cogs instead of 6 or 8 or 10.
We already covered the first one: If you want the range, which most riders do, and don’t have a front derailleur and multiple chainrings, the cassette needs to have a really big cog to have an easy gear and a really small cog to have a hard gear. That’s why many 12-speed cassettes start at 10-teeth and go up to more than 50-teeth.
I know what you’re saying to the screen right now: “
But Levy, why can’t we have a 6, 8, or 10-speed cassette with 10 and 50-tooth cogs? That way we’d still have a wide range, but drivetrains would be far less finicky because the cassette spacing isn’t as tight?”
And you wouldn’t be wrong.
Unfortunately, our legs are attached to our brains, and our brains want our legs to spin at a certain cadence, or RPM, that feels right to us. Like a car with a manual transmission, you need to shift to the right gear otherwise your legs will be spinning too fast - your cadence will be too high - or you’ll end up bogging down - your cadence is too slow. You all know that already, but you might not know that a lot of riders are really picky about their cadence, and a difference of one or two teeth can actually feel pretty drastic, especially if you’re the type of rider who covers a lot of ground and thinks about such things.
I get to use different 12-speed drivetrains while riding different test bikes, but I put a wide-range 8-speed eMTB cassette on the Grim Donut. It shifts well, but the jumps between cogs feel HUGE to my legs. Back to cars for a second: Old transmissions often had just three or four speeds, whereas some modern cars can have ten-speed transmissions that improve efficiency and performance because the car can be in a more ideal gear for the speed that it's traveling at. Same thing with bikes!
Granted, that won’t matter to a lot of riders who don’t care about things like cadence or having to walk up the hill.
Also, SRAM and Shimano definitely care about who offers the most cogs and the most range. The upside is that we have two companies competing against each other to make better drivetrains that offer more capability than ever before. But I wonder what we’d be using today if they had spent the last twenty years perfecting an 8-speed drivetrain instead of always wanting to add another cog?
Regardless, 12-speed has given us the ability to have both a very wide range and relatively small, natural feeling jumps between each gear. And with the help of that original XX1 11-speed group, the modern 12-speed drivetrain has also killed the front derailleur for good. Hopefully. If you’re watching this in 2040 and front derailleurs have made a comeback, I don’t know what to say.
We’re also told that not having to consider front derailleurs means that clever engineers can make frames stronger and stiffer, and we can have more tire clearance. And not having a front derailleur can also mean improved suspension performance, especially under pedaling loads, because the forces the drivetrain puts into it are more consistent.
What Did 12-Speed Cost Us?Okay, so 12-speed is obviously the one and only reason for you having a good ride, but it must have some drawbacks, right?
For one, squeezing 12 cogs into the same space that used to fit 11, 10, and 9 cogs means that everything needs to be more precise. If you bent your 9-speed derailleur or hanger just a little bit, you might never even notice. But do the same thing to your 12-speed drivetrain and you’re bound to get some tick, tick, tick noises at best, or shitty shifting at worst.
SRAM and Shimano are building far better derailleurs than they used to, no matter what anyone says. They’re using better materials, better methods, and tighter tolerances. On top of that, derailleur hangers aren’t made of warm cheddar cheese anymore, so they’re way less likely to bend. All that means better shifting... Most of the time; there’s no getting around the fact that 12 cogs have to be closer together than 8, 9, 10, or 11, making it more susceptible to going out of adjustment.
Another thing I’ve heard many times is how a narrower chain must be weaker than a wider chain. Is there any truth to that? Is a 9-speed chain ''stronger'' than a 12-speed chain?
All testing points towards modern 12 and 11-speed chains having more tensile strength than older, wider chains that featured less advanced materials and construction. On top of that, things like flush pins (how they sit on the outer plate) and better tolerances also help, and 12-speed chains all have to pass that Euro ISO standard that means they’re more than strong enough, no matter how many squats you did during the quarantine.
Okay fine, but high-end 12-speed drivetrains surely cost way more than 11-speed high-end drivetrains did, right? I mean, it sure feels like things have gotten crazy expensive.
Well, in 2011 an XTR two-chainring drivetrain group would cost you $1,495 USD, which is about $1,700 today. In 2020, Shimano’s 12-speed XTR drivetrain sells for a bit under $1,500. So the latest XTR drivetrain is actually less expensive than the one that came before it.
What’s SRAM been up to? Their XX1 11-speed started at $1,449 USD in 2016, which is $1,650 today. In 2020, the XX1 12-speed costs $1,500. Just like XTR, 12-speed XX1 is actually less expensive than 11-speed XX1.
Not only that, but you can also find many of the fanciest groups’ main selling features, like the wide range and shift quality, on SRAM and Shimano’s less expensive drivetrains. You just saw
Shimano launch their new Deore group that costs around $300 - that’s for an entire 12-speed drivetrain! SRAM’s NX 12-speed kit goes for $375 USD, and their
newest GX 12-speed drivetrain is $545 dollars.
12-Speed Drivetrains: Good or Bad?Scroll through the comment section under any drivetrain article and you're bound to see riders eulogizing the so-called 'good ol' days' of fewer cogs and fewer problems, but the facts tell a very different story.
Modern 12-speed drivetrains supply both a very wide range and efficient, natural feeling jumps from gear to gear, something that fewer cogs aren't able to do. And thanks to improved materials and tolerances, they're also much more reliable overall, even if they can be a little finicky compared to those 8 and 9-speed systems. 12-speed drivetrains pretty much killed the front derailleur as well, especially after 11-speed showed that maybe we didn't need them after all. That also made drivetrains and frames lighter to boot. And finally, while you can spend a few grand on an XTR or wireless AXS system, you can also get a 12-speed drivetrain for as little as $300 USD, meaning that almost every rider has access to better shifting and more range than ever before.
Where would you like to see drivetrains go in the future: Should SRAM and Shimano keep adding cogs, or should their focus be on something else?
Previous Explainer episodes:Episode 1 - What's the Deal with Linkage Forks?Episode 2 - Carbon Fiber Leaf SpringsEpisode 3 - What's the Deal with Chains? Episode 4 - What's the Deal with Cross-Country Racing?Episode 5 - The Basics of Modern Mountain Bike Geometry
455 Comments
give me your entire stock!
Atone for your whiteness, Levy.
PB staff: I demand immediate termination of Mike Levy's employment and financial compensation for the pain he caused.
Apologize for being complicit, TW80. Light-hearted laughter is violence.
Unless I am incorrectly reading your reply...
So no apology given.
After a decades we have reached the point were a 1x is heavier than an old 3x, and carries a large amount of range that you do not need. Really: a 500% plus range and 12 gears are not necessary to ride a MTB!!!!! They are actually detrimental.
I used a 1048 Garbaruk 11 speed and now mostly go 1042. I might get a 1046 Garbaruk 11 speed next and be very happy.
Hopefully someday, when this pandemic is over, we can grease up and wrestle out our differences.
Don't forget, we're all in this together.
Still run 1x9 on my bikes. Saint derailleurs still work so why not lol. 32 and 11-34 lol.
Or nothing, because e-bikes do not need 10-50 in the first place?
Have you ever ridden a 28 tooth chainring with eagle? It'd be faster to carry your bike up the hill than use that granny gear. Youre pretty much doing a trackstand at that point.
Now I have 30t w 10-50t 12 speed. I get around slightly slower but I can spin at a more comfortable cadence up the steep stuff.
You're right though, when I'm trying to ride a tricky uphill tech section, I'm usually a gear or two down from the 50t otherwise you're moving too slow.
I’m kinda glad to have the bail out when I’m about to bonk but...I’m quite happy with a smaller, lighter cassette.
No bravado. I really think using a smaller cassette is a better way to do mtb.
But then I don’t have “real mountains” etc etc.
Anti-squat: since eagle has taken over, most frame manufacturers are optimizing their suspension kinematics for a 32- 34 tooth chainrings since 95% of high end bikes today will be sold with a 50+ tooth granny cog. E*13's 9-44 tooth cassette is peak size IMHO, but if you put a 28 tooth ring on the latest crop of bikes the suspension will not perform as intended.
Efficiency: On 12 speed systems, the largest cogs are dished out over the spokes, creating a worse lateral angle and dramatically increasing friction and drag, to the point where the lowest few gears are less efficient than a Rolhoff and comparable to a pinion. This is why I ordered a box prime 9 (and to get larger jumps between gears)
YES that means sometimes going at hiking pace, but, uh, shouldn't a mountain biker prefer riding to walking? I'm happy to be able to fully ride a climb rather than dismount a few times.
Also, someone commented below about keeping your front wheel on the ground...with a steep seat angle and longer chainstays it isn't an issue. I'm on a Nukeproof Mega 290 and struggling to keep the front wheel planted is a thing of the past, even when using my 51t, and I don't even have sit on the nose of the saddle to do it.
Everyone saying to just go 28t on an 11 speed setup are going to have no top end. I have a fatbike with a 28t and I get to top speed to fast.
So I'll take 32/34 with a 12 speed over 28/30 with an 11 speed.
I normally run a 32 up front on my E29. It can be a huge struggle on a lot of the climbs I do. But I hate spinning out on some of the occasional fast DH's. It's a compromise I make. But regardless, I still use the entire 10-50 range (or 10-51 on my Shimano bike).
I had a 28/42 on my last bike and feels pretty similar to my 34/50 on current setup.
I've always wondered that the proportion of front teeth vs back teeth impact would be on leverage/torque.
As far as I'm concerned, good riddance 12spd!
Plus, the XT 11-46 cassette has some terrible gap shifting, especially the big gears. I’ve heard some other brands adjusted the steps but the XT 11sp gap was brutal. I ended up ditching it and going back to 11-42 when it came out (wish they’d made a 44).
Yeah at times it’s super slow, but I use that for the non technical parts of a climb so I can rest and punch it over the tech stuff.
10-42 with 28t gives me the same low gears as a 10-50 with 32t chain ring. I'm not a masher so I really don't need the really high gear of a 10t with 32t chainring.
My question is, why am I carrying around 12 gears? I use the same three (maybe four) gears every ride. I'd like to see the same range simplified down to 9, 7, maybe even 6 gears.
then get a dh cassette and run a 26t chainring? nobody is stopping you
Smallest cog 15 or 17 would be torture.
Has Pinkbike not considered that maybe if this new technology with tighter tolerances and better materials was carried over to these 8 and 9-speed systems that maybe they would still be stronger? I personally hate the mindset and arguments that go along with it that many industries even outside bikes perpetrate: Well, this technology is older and we have made something *different* and *more expensive* so we're not going to bother to update the older technology and thus it will always be WORSE.
Bring me a 9 speed 10-{48~52} drivetrain with widely-spaced gears in the middle of the cassette that uses all of the same tech that is now being used to make 12-speed systems functional at all, and I will be a cheerful MF'er. IF this were to be done, I would have a drivetrain that's 3 gears lighter, with a slightly heavier but stronger chain, better tolerance to shifting imperfections, a wide range, and a low price. Oh , and what's that I hear? My cadence will never be very different because any given cog is no more than 3 teeth away from a cog on a 12-speed drivetrain?
People ride (and can wreck me on) singlespeeds, so the cadence thing isn't something I'm going to be thinking much about. Give me a properly updated 9 speed drivetrain from Shimano or Sram with all of the current tech they're using on their "better" stuff, and give me the high gear, the low gear, and like 5 in between and let's see how it compares.
fkn nonsense. we all need superboost and 13 gears.
for serious though 11 speed was peak performance (but i'd take fewer). everything is nonsensical now.
yes i'm on 12 bc my bike was specced w/ it. it is exactly 0% better than my old 11 sp. nice work bike industry, that's some sweet innovation!
Wonder no more. Microshift 11-48 10 speed. Plenty of ranges, cheap, precise, and reliable. Put a full set up on the wife's bike for $170.
Question @mikelevy:
If it were 11-42 would that be a 462% range? If so, I have a 2 speed derailleur with 2100% range!
The caveat is that some didn’t get on with it so well- shifting issues, creaking etc. mine has been fantastic though, no issues at all- and I even bought the bigger replacement piece of the cassette in preparation for it to wear out but it hasn’t yet. I don’t think they make it anymore (the Race version), but they still make the Plus version which is right about 340 gm.
Workes really really good????
I kinda miss riding single.
said while hidding my modern bikes and taking layers of dust of my Bontrager I never ride because everything is better now>
Not much use when you're out on the trail though... In that case, a good eye and strong forearms will get you home, or just reset your limit screws so you dont run the chain into the spokes or frame and fix when you get home/back to the car.
Once past 36T you're bit much slower pushing!
End of the day, ideal gear choice depends on where you ride. Perfect is your gear leaves you with some sections you occasionally or even never manage to nail. So that you have something to work on. If you buy into lighter gearing, you lost both your money and your challenges. But I absolutely get that if people live in the Dolomites and most of the stuff is impossible to climb with 11-36 then of course by all means get lighter gearing.
Give me a "whatever speed" cassette with a ~18-52 range. I rarely use 18t unless I'm going downhill on the road.
Running out of gears when you could go faster sucks. Not having enough gears for some portion of a climb also sucks.
Just because 5:1 is good enough for what YOU ride doesn't mean it's good for everyone.
I rode an 11 speed Eagle and the small gear ratio sucked. I don't care if the 12th speed adds 50 grs. I'm 20# over racing weight anyway. For the average week-end warrior, 1x12 is perfect.
After a decades we have reached the point were a 1x is heavier than an old 3x, and carries a large amount of range that you do not need. Really: it is a stupid rush to pack unnecessary range. 510% (Shimano), 520% (SRAM, with an idiotic cassette spacing), 555% (e-thirteen ... with a 9 cog).
What's next? a 13 speed 600% cassette that Pinkbike will announce as the new holy grail?
Moved to 10 speed for clutch and narrow wide and the old Deore 11-36 cassette created too much unsprung mass.
Still on 10 speed, narrow wide, a chain device (with bashring to be safe as I dont just ride man made flow trails), clutch mech and 11 to 36. Much lower unsprung mass and for the UK its all you need.
fragile 10-50 heavy dinner plate cassette, long cage mech, dh tyres, wide and heavy rims, crush core and fluid.... not a chance in the UK, its not needed.
I rode in San Fran... I would run a large cassette out there or push up the hills.
I rode in Whistler... I would run a large cassette out there or push up the hill.
UK... not a chance, even Torridon etc, its technical climbing so a 50T is useless, you need to be in around 32/32, even 36 is too low, to many pedal strikes and not enough traction v speed.
Peace out.
Regardless, I often reflect on how perfect 2x10 26/38-11/36 was for me. I had the perfect range, and all the smaller transitions to find the perfect cadence for any situation. I really do wonder what further refinement of 2x drivetrains could have created. Yes I know frame clearance, blahs blahs blahs. But I still wonder.
Box, Microshift, Shimano & SRAM. Maybe TRP, but stuff readily purchased by the masses. Though that Ingrid system looks hot.
Umm, actually, pretty sure the inside width on the inner plates is the same from 8sp or 9sp and all the way up. So a 12sp chain (maybe not flattop and/or that other weird road chain) will work on a 9sp system.
Shift properly? 8sp chain on a 12sp system wouldn't even pedal properly, let alone shift well, except maybe in the biggest cog.
I hate to be on this side of the barricade, but Single Ring is not for all and I still have the old FD on two of my bikes, due to the Nature of the terrain I ride with them.
As the article describe is all about cadence, and when riding on those long, boring and flat dual tracks, knowing that having a 42t upfront, I can use 6 of the 9 cogs (yes... it's an old 3x9), to gain and maintain speed
I also have ridden on the same terrain other bikes (singlering), and don't seem that efficient((aka fast) (on that particular terrain).
Singlering has permited some freedom on bike design, but as always, don't seem all positive things.
I also miss sometimes my 26inchs tire + granny (22/36) on my 29er (28/42), where we could use as a safemode when really tired and on "Bonk-mode".
Ebikes will have a determinal effect on drivetrain.
Even today on my singlering I need to drop 2 and 3 cogs in one move, after a step hill, so I imagine with those electric watts, we'll see the comeback to 8...7... or even 6 or 5 speeds.
PS- aren't there rumors of a 13speed cassete? ROTOR already makes them!
I'll try to be as short as possible, since this topic is about 11s or 12s…. [SORRY!]
1. Double/Triples have a shallower increase in the transmission relation.
What I mean, is imagine your pedaling at 70rpm (yes some spin faster, but as general of rule, let's take 70 for the average jo like me!), and start to get faster as you move through the gears. Speed increment in a 1x is far greater for each gear change, where a 2x or 3x, it is much more gradual.
I found a good site to show just that - gears.mtbcrosscountry.com/#29I1123I30397
But you can plot the graph using excel
2. Besides that, 2x or 3x can have longer range (more if you place new cassettes with 42 or even a 45 on the calculation). This will show very much on how slow you can go vs fast as you can go.
Like on 1., using the 70 rpm, with the 2x or 3x, you can go as slow as a 1x system, but if that’s the case, you can go faster and vice versa.
3. 2x or 3x, can use Shorter Rear Mech arms – and I really do miss my small and compact rear mechs!
Side note: You can use lighter cassettes, and this will reduce sprung weight, making your suspension to work better – but I don’t think most of us notice that…
Also something I like about FD, is that you can rapidly change the Gear Ratio, using the FD. Imagine you’re pedaling at 70rpm on a 32(f)x24(r), and small climb appears. By changing to a granny [22t, so it would be 22(f)x24(r)], you could pedal at 70rpm at a low +/- 9km/h. Doing the same on a 1x, means change 2 to 3 times (depending on the cassette). I won’t consider this a positive, just a side note.
I’m not against 1x – I have bikes like that, ok? I can feel the benefits and everything. What I’m trying to show, is that 2x or 3x are not so stupid as it can appear and it certainly has its space (that’s why Shimano continues producing it)
In resume:
Bigger range, more ground clearance and if you use Di2 and a single shifter, I would say it’s an hell of a system!
FYI, @70rpm a 42x11 will place a bike around 37km/h (and minimum speed using 22x36 of 6km/h) and @70rpm, a 1x 32x50, will place a bike around 31Km/h (and a minimum speed using 32x50 of 6km/h). And yes, 37km/h is doable on the tracks I’m talking about
Cheers mate! Nice rides with whichever tranny!
also you dont have to go 12 speed if you want 10-50, sunrace, garbaruk & others have 11 speed in that ratio that work flawlessly.
About 4 years ago I spent a hundred dollars or so to switch over to 1x11 with the OneUp kit. I think I've got an 11/42 in back now, which works just fine. Other than that and a dropper, the bike is the same as it was when I bought it. Still fantastic.
Also, seriously not a dig on a lack of need or anything like that... Just an idea for more fresh insights instead of opinions from all of us here in the peanut gallery
At some point we are spinning such a ridiculous small gear the bottle neck is your traction/balance.
For me the e-13 9-46 is the best of all world: lighter/ decent range and I don't need to run a huge 36 or 38t chainring to compensate a ridiculous 50t cog.
At this time, you can find really cheap 11 speed component without having to worry about microspline and updating all your components..
I've found 12 speed (GX) to be super finicky and would go out of alignment if I were to breath on it.
My prior 11 speed setup (XT) was set and forget.
It seems like 12 speed has less space per cog on the cassette meaning the indexing requires a lot more precision and can fall out of alignment easily (like when I don't tighten my rear axle to exact the same amount as I did when tuning the gears)
I have found my best balance using a Leonardi 9-48 NPU cassette going to a lower front chainring to increase AS but also to improve chain line in my common gears. Combined with AXS, it's unlimited range, better than XX1 shifting, at equal to XX1 weight, it's hard to beat with current competing combos.
That's an excuse to add dependencies between all the components, and make more money.
I run a 30t with a 9sp 42T Sunshine cassette with a Sram X5 derailleur and shifter, works like a charm.
Manufacturers like Sram and Shimano want you to buy the chain, cassette, shifter, derailleur, chainring from them.
How about 2x setup but with gearbox up front? One gear for climbing, one for descending, decreased unsprung weight, not so high demands shifting. Could perhaps even use DH groupsets.
Specifically, a 10-45 range high end 11 speed system that uses a medium cage derailleur, where durability, weight, and reliability are the focus. If love to see this at both XT / XTR level, and GX / XO1 level.
I hope to see SRAM try to match the shifting-under-load performance that shimano has achieved.
I have a Chris king hub with XD driver.... and I think SRAM’s machined cassettes offer excellent long-term durability and weight.
I could see how 1x helped suspension designers and how Boost spacing helped make stronger wheels. 1x helped for sure there because they could design the chainstays shorter for handling characteristics and for wider tire clearance without worrying about the front derailleur getting in the way. I can see how 1x simplifies things for a lot of reasons. I can see how it is enough range for riding downhill/gravity oriented disciplines and with the right front cog, making climbing doable if you are fit enough and have the right kind of bike for going up. 1x works for MTB'ing.
But 1x isn't good enough for riding uphill if you need/want more top end speed and have to spec a larger front cog to achieve that. It's a compromise and from the outside looking in, it's too much of one for me.
I'm moving away from MTB in general, so maybe my opinion isn't worth shit on this website.
We still call them "quick links", but they're often harder to snap open than a regular link, and nowadays require a special tool or frustrating (and often bloody) trailside improv. I've seen groups of riders with about a century's worth of experience hunched over a chain, trying to find a way to pry the "quick" link open. It's one of those jokes this industry plays on us
I can also carry a multi tool to lower my saddle, or a bleed kit to adjust my brakepads... but if we created on-the-fly ways to adjust those things, why go back?
So the best performing 12 speed SRAM drivetrain right now is XX1 AXS right? And the biggest reason it's so great is the responsiveness due to the electronic shifting.
On the other hand, you have Shimano's 12 speed XT, which is incredibly smooth because of how the proprietary chain and cassette design interface with each other.
So, it would stand to reason that the Unicorn of 12 speed drivetrains would be a SRAM AXS shifter and der with a Shimano XT Chain and cassette. You get the responsiveness of AXS with the smooth shifting, especially under load, of XT. The only reason I could think that this wouldn't work is if the cog spacing is different between brands for 12 speed cassettes, but I'm having trouble finding information on that.
@mikelevy If someone at Pinkbike has tried this, it's probably you. Any input here?
I regularly do rides with >3500ft of climbing including quite steep trials, I use my 50T cog all the time with a 32 t chainring, never ever use my 10T except on paved roads, but my frame kinematics would be shit if i went 30t with a 46T cassette and eagle came stock on bikes.
You must mean $1,449 in 2011, otherwise I'm particularly bothered by the rate of inflation.
I just got around to reading this, so I guess this comment is just for me. Hoooooraaaaaaaay.
It's a big waste of wheel dishing and wheel strength. Give me 10 or 11 speeds that I can use to climb and descend with.
Even a road bike with a 10-speed drivetrain is mostly enough.
Ok, ok, ok, 11 speed for closer ratios on my road bike would be acceptable but that means 12-34 or 12-30. Have you ever tried pushing an 12/53 without 30 other riders to draft with?
Stop the marketing that creates a false desire for more, more, more.
I have 24-32-44 at the front and 11-36 at the rear, giving me ratios from 1.3 to 7.8.
The neareast I can find with 1x12 speed drivetrains is 38 x 10-52, with ratios from 1.4 to 7.5, which is still less range than my old 3x10 setup.
I understand the benefits of having less moving parts, reduced maintenance, possibly less weight and the possibility to have a chain guide with a 1x12 setup. But in term of gear ratios, you had more range with 3x10 than current 1x12. And also, the price of a 12 speed cassette is so much more expensive than a 10 speed one!
Source: check it yourself on www.sheldonbrown.com/gear-calc.html
Would you actually have an experience with older equipment that is significantly worse as to prevent you from riding as much? Does this expansion and development of production actually benefit us vs its societal implications of exploited labour and environmental impact?
I think I saw a huge paradigm shift with the introduction of Shimano 11-speed where things got perfectly good enough. There were substantial jumps between 3x9, 2x10, and then 1x11. There were noticeable improvements from 2x9 to 2x10 to 2x11 on road, gravel, and cross bikes. But from then on, there hasn't been any new standard that has actually made things more tolerable or more fun.
First World problems I tell ya
So moving forward I believe majority will be on 1x12 and 29 as the most efficient systems;
Acknowledging this is (firmly) a 1st world issue .. which while interesting - has provided an echo chamber to gripe / d*ck swing. Run what you want - have fun on your ride - that's what its all about!.
Great article though ????????????
you have a bent derailleur hanger.
I love modern drivetrains. I have a Sram and Shimano 12 speed and find them both to be great.
8 speed with the same range would be perfectly great for MTB. We ain’t roadies.
Shimano 12 is next level rad.
I’m finally done with my unpaid Beta testing of the GX Eagle setup on my Slash 8-shifting performance degrades alarmingly on long, gritty desert rides and the rear derailleur is shot 11 months in. Put XT 12 on and it’s better in every way.
11 speed still treating me right.
26er = 32:18
Oh wait, wrong forum!
I was curious to try out the microshift advent X (wide 10 speed) but now that Shimano has the new deore drivetrains I'm tempted to try m5100 or m4100. I think I'd prefer 11-51 11-speed over 12-speed. 11-46 10-speed is probably plenty of range. It's cheap enough to just give it a try and see.
*And find ever more ridiculous inventions to keep selling as poorly designed, poorly engineered, poorly made, overpriced crap.
Sure there's a lot of silly stuff that's come out of the industry. But the engineering, the designs, the bikes... by and large they're remarkable. The way we can ride modern trails is insane compared to the past.
Sometimes I just want to ride easy but still hit the fun trails, easy gearing lets me do that.
Same way I always have, basically putting my chin on the bars.
I know this board has a lot of superheroes that can climb a strava grade 1 on a single speed by harnessing the power of their beards and plaid shirts. I've got no shame though and enjoy my currently 32/50 (oval even). When it's time to replace my cassette I'll probably update to the 52. I'm sure my knees will thank me.
I guess you missed the “out of shape” part. Haha! Good job man. You’re a beast.
are you riding a bike from 2007? modern geo solved that issue long ago
I went 2x8 and a bashguard back in 96, and 1x9 with an 11-36 back in 2008. i have always hated front deraileurs.
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