Laurie Greenland's Mondraker Summum - Fort William DH World Cup 2016

 Try good ol rubber cement. Ya know the stuff to glue patches onto tubes! ( remember tubes haha)

 I'm running renthal soft push on locked with very strong hairspray from years ..zero issues and no need of wiring it..

 @vic690: but you are possible travelling a lot slower then these boys and girls, nothing is left to chance.. no disrespect to your riding..

 Of course i'm riding a lot lot slower than these guys i was only answering to russthedog saying that i experienced no need for glue and wires

 @vic690: you don't need glue or wires if you stay dry. When it rains the grips will start to move if they are not wired. I never used glue though.

Lock on grips are improving, but a normal grip still offers a better combo of thin profile and shock absorption.

 @jaame: you nailed it..thin profile and shock absorption that's why i came back to push ons..
Using glue is it possibile to remove the grips if needed ? I found hairspray sticks enough and still let you remove grips with compressed air..

 Depends on where the flex is.

Then truth is that the bike industry is only now learning what was found in the mid 90's by our motorcycle road racing brethren and even earlier in F1 and others. That is that there is a point where there is too much stiffness. Once you get beyond that point you do so at the expense of compliance.

Normally, and as long as the tires are not over inflated, they provide a great deal of compliance on their own. Now if you can add just a smidgen more in a place like the wheels you can increase traction without adversely affecting the system (that is the bike) as a whole.

Tire inflation is a good way to understand it. If you pump 60psi into your tires they will lose the compliance in the sidewalls and the tire will bounce off small rocks and bumps instead of conforming to the surface and hanging on.

 Yes rim flex is welcome to some degree, while carbon rims have virtually no flex at all. Carbon wheels feel like alu wheels with tyres having at least 5PSI more in them. It is a feeling off course ,but impressionof getting tossed and shaked around more than usually doesn't seem confidence inspiring and leaves you more battered. Same goes for fork flex, I bet Eddie Masters uses less energy to hold his bars and has it easier to hold the line through rocky gardens on his Dorado than guys on Fox 40s.

 @BDKR: Sorry but tyre inflation is a very poor example - You are confusing deformation of tyre wall / tread and stiffness of a wheel which are entirely different.

Decreasing wheel stiffness will not be for increasing traction in that sense - it is about allowing the wheel to 'move' upon impact / heavy cornering loads rather than absorb all an impacts force (leading to wheel damage), it can also help the rider to get less 'hung up' in certain terrain.

Spoke tension has been played with by WC teams for years, It can be difficult to replicate for 'normal' riders though as it requires increased maintainence.

 @WAKIdesigns: In motorcycle racing teams re-design fork crowns / leave out clamping bolts to engineer some flex into the fork for that exact reason.

While the Dorado may feel more vague on long flat corners I imagine that same inherent flex in the USD design allows the wheel to 'find its way' through the rock gardens better than the ultra-stiff forks like 40 as you say.

 @Racer951: some engineer called Fabien Barell on bullsht after he talked about Mavic staying with alu rims for grip, and I can agree with that because vertical compliance of carbon and alu rim is nearly identical. The thing that is overlooked though when mentioning such raw lab science is that rim works in all directions, it can bend sideways within it's plasticity (is it the right term?! Where metal element goes back to it's original form after deformation) and the section can also twist. All journos with common sense were reporting carbon rims to feel harsher when the trend was picking up. I felt the same with my carbon rims and this is the exact reason why I sold them.

In XC, road and CX it is a completely different story because alu rims under 350g have consistency of cheese, the material just cannot handle stress with so little of it being there. So if you get a very stiff 300g rim you are super happy. Then carbonis brittle and the only way of dealing with it is to add thickness to the element which takes such rim into alu territory, and ultimately makes the rim too stiff for riding pver rough terrain. Clock may say otherwise for some people, carbon rimsmay be faster for some, but I don't believe it is a case for everybody.

 @Racer951: Actually I...

a) disagree
b) an not confusing the two.

I recognize that flex in the wheel and deformation in the tire are two seperate events, but they are both events happening in the same system and as a result of the same input. And while you are right to use the term deformation concerning the sidewalls, it is also correct to realize that the overall effect on the entire system (the bike) is more compliance.

Hope that doesn't sound argumentative. Not trying too. :-)

 Unfortunately 2 cross wheels are stiffer than 3 cross wheels. Certainly in terms of vertical compliance. So this mech's got it all backwards....

 @Racer951: I don't know who is neg-propping your comments. I don't think it's Waki either btw.

Your comments are good ones! And I would rather we chat then just neg prop peeps without any explanation.

 @Racer951: great point! ken roczen went back to the stock clamps on his fork halway thru the sx season this year for this very reason. He said this is the only major change he made on his bike this year--went from being kinda competitive to absolute domination at this point.

 @gabriel-mission9:
I agree. A shorter spoke that takes a more direct path to the rim will be stiffer on straight on impacts. 3 may be stiffer when twisting but it depends on the rim. Too many spokes at high tension can cause the rim to warp u see loaf causing it to self steer like its trying to taco. I worked in a carbon rim factory for a while, been building wheels for 20 years and I still see highly trained engineers contradict each other. It depends toouch on the rim it's self to have one answer. I personally like 2x 28 hole on a stiff alloy rim. Or a carbon rim with some tuned flex built in :-)

 @BDKR: Not at all argumentative - I understand what you mean better when you consider everything as a 'system' - Which I suppose is correct when you are looking at how the bike rides as a whole rather than its isolated components.

@WAKIdesigns - I am not convinced by the carbon / aluminium wheel debate either - One persons 'responsiveness' is another persons harsh certainly. There are so many factors that will alter a wheels 'feel' though such as spoke tension, material, length, hub width etc - Minefield!

This is why its interesting to hear what the 'pros' do, because often what they do are the things that just pain work.

 @Krispy-at-Go-Ride: @gabriel-mission9

Thats interesting guys - I have been put off the Spank 29er wheelset for one of my bikes due to its 28H spoke count, should I be rethinking this as they are a great price.

 @WAKIdesigns: When the material springs back to original shape, that's elastic deformation. Plastic deformation is where it deforms so much that it won't 'spring' back into shape.

the point where you move from elastic to plastic deformation happens based on stress. Stress is based on many things including geometry and the direction of the deformation. Bending and torsion (twisting) both can be elastic or plastic. The level of stress where plastic deformation starts is call the yield strength.

I don't consider myself an expert on rims, so that's about all I have to add to this discussion at this time

 @Krispy-at-Go-Ride: Kris, some of us fat-asses are afraid to get on any rim with less than a 32 hole count. Could also be that I've never ridden a high end 28 hole count wheel.

 @WasatchEnduro: I have 28h EX471s, I am 75kg and recently dropped from 2ft to flat, landing with my rear wheel right on a rock sticking out of the ground. I got a slight dent and wheel went out of true by 2mm Max.

Then I used to ride on 24h Crossmax ST and they took some great deal of beating.

@racer951 - I used same tyre on Crossmax ST when I went for LIght Bicycle 33 carbon rims. I loved the tyre stability in corners (thanks to rim width) but hated the roughness when riding straight. Crossmaxes felt faster and smoother, I was feeling slow and bounced around. When I changed back to alu rim I had to check my pressure each ride because I was sure I have too little of it, since everything felt softer and smoother.

Majority of fast guys in my town tried carbon rims, they are all back on alu. That includes Trans Provance top20 finishers and top5 Swedish DHiller.

 @gabriel-mission9: i read it as lateral compliance not vertical,

 @ad15: Yeah, I am not convinced that lower cross counts aren't stiffer laterally as well. I believe they are stiffer in all directions, but am only certain that they are stiffer vertically. I genuinely believe the mech's simply got it wrong here.

 @Racer951: Lower spoke counts will reduce stiffness quite dramatically. For a bike that will be ridden hard (DH or gravity based) I would always stick with 32 at both ends unless you are particularly light or the wheel uses proprietary spokes. For a more xc/trail type of bike I would happily run 28 up front without any doubts. I would however be prepared to replace spokes more often, as they will be under much more stress.

 @WAKIdesigns:

"Same goes for fork flex, I bet Eddie Masters uses less energy to hold his bars and has it easier to hold the line through rocky gardens on his Dorado than guys on Fox 40s."

Famous last words

 @gabriel-mission9: My theorie is having le bit of La petit bummeur!

 @gabriel-mission9: ROFL!

 @Racer951: term is hysteresis

 @WAKIdesigns to be fair in person and on the vids all the Dorado riders looked very smooth and planted though the rough stuff a the fort. Whether that translated to control or not I don't know. But there was something different for sure compared to the Fox and Boxxer. BOS looked stiff too.

 I am sorry , i must admit it... I deeply despise people believing in quality/performance of stuff based on race results. I mean... I think they are fkng morons without a clue that must really suck at riding to not know that any top guy can win on pretty much anything if he only gets a good mechanic and enough time to get used to it Well, here you go, I am drunk and I play my cards open. Morons, idiots, losers. If I ever give such example, like one in a comment above, I am never serious and always say it light hearted. I could explain myself, but I'm drunk and I don't give a slightest damn. You can think whatever you want.

 @WAKIdesigns: yeah i don't think winning has much to do with "quality." It just so happens that bike co.s want to sell expensive stuff right? They're not going to put world class riders on mid level equipment and let people know that they do not need top dollar stuff to be competitive. So it is with every hobby though...

 @WAKIdesigns:
When you talk about a Dorado and the energy to hold a line, taking only flex in the equation, you're wrong.
I can't compare a Dorado and a 40, but I can compare a dorado with a boxxer and a SC domain (both Rock shox having custom internals).
And you can make at least three cases:
- through rock garden with round/small rocks, there is actually no differences between a dorado and a boxxer in term of flex. Only the dorado air spring makes for a more comfortable ride but with a "blur" feeling (like it's hard to feel where the wheel is).
- through rock gardens with big/square rocks, the dorado doesn't inspire confidence, you can't change your line easily, but if you are in the right line, i'ts easier to keep it. In that case the dorado feel faster despite being actualy slower. you can't really feel the flex, but you feel a difference in how the bike rides.
- through quick, hard corners, the dorado is a pain in the ass. Like the wheel doesn't want to go where you want. you actually can feel the flex, and the first time, it's really scary.

I think there is soemthing like the "progressivity" of a spring, but applied to flex: the dorado being "degressive" and the boxxer being more "linear". So the dorado is as stiff or stiffer than the boxxer, but there is a point where the dorado isn't stiff anymore. And the energy you'll need to hold your line doesn't depend on flex alone, but also on this "progressivity" of the stiffness.

 @faul: You need to separate comparisons into force acting on the fork while travelling upright and force acting on AND created by a turn in event to really see the differences.

USD forks like he Dorado, Groove 200, and others are susceptible to lenthwise twist that can come across as a delay in response. The new X-Fusion stuff overcomes this by keying the stanchions while the Emerald uses a rigid stanchion guard with an arch at the top connecting both sides.

The wheel "catching up" to turn in input as a result of that lengthwise twist may be what you're feeling in rock gardens and quick hard corners.

 @BDKR: to add to what you said - delay on turn in is something that happens on 29ers as well compared to 26ers. To a smaller degree on 27,5 but still. It becomes an non issue after 2 hours of riding. Keyed stanchions in Revel must contribute to faster fork wear and miminal added friction. All to satisfy people sceptical of flex and save weight on CSU assembly for the weight-minded. Both are cases of being ill advised. STD forks are what they are for weight saving only (and production convenience) In a sport dominated by human factor suspension benefits of handling + perforrmance vs weight are impossible to be determined, hence USD forks are nisch product for smaller companies to stand out of the crowd.

 I agree with everything you have said about race results not being a good gauge of componentry Waki, but gotta disagree about the lack of importance you give to turn in "lag". I have ridden usd forks, and even when used to them (compensating by turning in earlier to account for lag, turning in harder to account for twist under hard g's, being loose on corner exits while they return to untwisted) it doesn't just feel different returning to a right way up fork, it feels like a relief. Suddenly I am more in control of where the front wheel is going, AND the fork is lighter, so less tiring to move around. Win/Win. I agree weight isn't everything, but in order for USD's to be competitively accurate, they need to be "too heavy" for a fast mtb. Keyed stanchions may help, I have never tried them, but I would assume the extra wear is more than minimal unless you take the Cannondale roler bearing approach (heavy). As for the Emeralds stiffener arch? It does precisely bugger all. Its a fancy mudguard, nothing more.

 @WAKIdesigns: "to add to what you said - delay on turn in is something that happens on 29ers as well compared to 26ers. To a smaller degree on 27,5 but still."

But that of course is tire squirm, and it's easily something you could feel on any diameter tire based on the combo of sidewall height, sidewall stiffness, internal pressure, knob length, and even siping. You may be feelling that more on a 29er due to the longer contact patch at the very least.

Personally, I'll take a little more squirm if the trade off is more traction.

And that's what this is all about here. Trade offs!

That said, saying USD's are a niche market dismisses all the competitive motorcycle stuff where they've been in use for years now (remember that the key DVO guys are from the motorcycle world). It also dismisses any input from a discriminating user (such as @faul) who can make changes to rig and uderstand and feel the differences.

I have a Groove 200 on the front of my Operator and it's nothing short of wonderful. Heavy? Yeah, kinda... but not in a way that holds me back. Do I suffer from it's lengthwise twisting at times? No, but that could be due to how everything else is setup AND how I ride the bike. But then I already said that I'd trade a little squirm for more grip. @faul OTOH sounds like he'd prefer feeling the bike be more precise during turn in so perhaps the current iteration of USD's (excluding X-Fusion and DVO) won't suit him.

All of that in mind, a rider that is getting the feedback from the bike he/she wants is the rider that's going to go real fast. Minnar is a great example of a guy that looks for his bike to behave and communicate the way he wants. When it does, you can't count him out! Ft Bill recently speaks volumes to that.

 @gabriel-mission9: "As for the Emeralds stiffener arch? It does precisely bugger all. Its a fancy mudguard, nothing more."

That's a HUGE assertion! More an assumption actually.

The slightest understanding of how forces are acting on the fork legs will tell you that that arch is going to do
something. But if you can prove otherwise, have at it.

 @BDKR: maybe he can draw up a paint diagram to explain it..... ep1.pinkbike.org/p4pb12050550/p4pb12050550.jpg

Funny how e-gineers love MS paint. Never seen it used in the engineering world, but the internet is full of paint diagrams where e-gineers show off their e-gineering might.

that said, the arch does indeed add stiffness. If someone needs this explained I can forward an address to a local high-school so they can brush up on high-school level physics.

 @BDKR: Minnaar may be the only guy out there who appreciates the feel of carbon rims. But he and Gee are hands down the smoothest riders out there. Not only they don't fight with the bike, not only the keep their body floating in smoothest achievable line over stuff, their bikes don't seem to be bashed into stuff like Adam Brayton treats his rig. Gwinny is the efficient version of Brayton, he's a brute none the less. Minnaar rides roughest sht like it's a pumptrack. He's silent too.

I rode Shiver SC and Fox36 day to day. When I hit that rock garden on off camber I could not believe how much I was flying around on super stiff 36 while Shiver kept the line in a manner that it felt too good to be true. And Shiver was mounted to a HT.

 @BDKR: It is an assertion, not an assumption. I have ridden Emeralds with the stiffener fitted and without. I have held the stiffener in my hands and felt the flex. I have looked at the way it is attached to the dropout with a couple of tiny little bolts. Of course it does something. Sellotaping bits of spaghetti to the legs would add a modicum of stiffness. Does it make the emerald as laterally stiff as a lighter right way up fork? Not even close. Does it add a noticeable amount of stiffness when riding? Barely. Does it look damn cool and keep a bit of mud out of your eyes? Sure.

@atrokz: Hope you had a fun time trawling my profile for shit to throw at me because you are so upset that I dont like USD's. Not entirely sure why you think that a drawing I did in paint somehow implies that I have no experience with DVO's but whatever. If you must know, that drawing was done in about 30 seconds to explain to someone who didnt speak fantastic english where he should put his top out spring (or rebound spring as he called it) in his old marzicchi fork. It took less time to draw than you probably just spent looking at my profile, did the job perfectly well and he thanked me. Funny how some people are so easily fooled by good aesthetics, thinking something pretty is going to be more effective than something simple. However from an engineering point of view, pretty doesnt mean anything.

 @gabriel-mission9: it tool me less time to troll your page than it took you to write that drivel! Plus, the part about e-gineers using paint vs an actual design program is apt since I've seen it on here so many times so when someone talks engineering but uses paint to illustrate it's kinda funny. Surely you must see the humor. Imagine a doctor using the game "Operation" to explain things to a client! haha. (also, "dampener").

Of note and on topic, DVO claims 23% torsional stiffness increase. I'm not sure how accurate that is, as it's probably embellished and the FEA on assemblies can be tweeked for mates (ie the contact points are the small screws you mentioned, where in the FEA it may show as a surface mate, who knows, it can be tweeked to get higher numbers), but it should add some torsional stiffness when it's all assembled (iow flexing it with your hands isn't the same as when it's bolted). Not sure on the number, I'd take 23% with a grain of salt though.

 Where I come from a damper dissipates energy and a dampener makes things wet. But that could just be an England/English vs America/English thing. We both know what we mean tho, so thats the important thing. Bit like aluminum vs aluminium.

Yeah I'd take that 23% with a grain of salt too. However I have no actual numbers, only what I felt when riding/playing. Still 23% seems a lot. Perhaps if the test was done on a jig with no axle fitted I'd take it.

 @gabriel-mission9: I too find it hard to believe that their arc does much. You can place 20 braces mounted to the axle area and it won't change much. Not when compared to a brace in form of arch in a std fork, where you cut the bending length by half. Hexagonal axle/clamp interface that is quite wide on both sides does a lot. Quick release on RS-1 on another hand... doesn't.

 @WAKIdesigns: I am really starting to wonder how much height is an advantage (if it is) for guys like Minnaar and Atherton and gals like Carpenter and Atherton.

Hmmm......

@gabriel-mission9: I did a couple of laps on an Emerald a couple of weeks back and was impressed.
Yada yada yada....
But 23% is a noticeable increase, but if fudged, reduce it to 18% for good measure. Even then it's more than 0. :-)

@WAKIdesigns / @gabriel-mission9 / @atrokz: Let's look at both sides and consider something else ... one of the key things that motorcycle peeps like about the USD approach is it's stiffness at the triple clamps (motorcycle terminology) and head tube (mtb terminology). Now if you look at a modern sport bike you'll notice that the frame spars are massive (assuming we are talking about a perimeter frame with or without the engine as a stressed member).

www.kawiforums.com/attachments/zx-7r/34164d1278375286-zx7-rebuild-img_0552.jpg

The forces transmitted too and through that part of the frame are huge... far more so than a DH bike! The amount of energy dealt with during braking, cornering, and acceleration (and never mind squaring an exit on the gas!) will crush the soul of a dh bike. The size of the fork tubes alone are so beefy as too make lateral flex a dead issue (never mind that the surface they ride on rarely creates such an instance and the front fenders often have more mating surface and provide additional protection against the lengthwise twist).

To put a point on how much energy and force you are dealing with in a road racing motorcycle, it's oft spoke of Gary Nixon having bent 36mm right side up forks by braking alone! In that time, braking and engine performance was way ahead of suspension and frame design, but engineers didn't want to believe it or believe what riders were saying.

Anyway, I can understand why a lot of MTB companies don't bother since the need isn't really the same. In DH, a better reason for doing so would be to have less unsprung weight, but if the lack of precision is too much for too many, what's the point right? If OTOH, DVO and X-Fusion improve on their approaches to fighting lateral flex and in turn use less beefy designs, you could have a genuine reason to go USD as they will have genuine alternatives.

That all said, I still love my Groove 200, but PHUCK is it heavy! LOL

 If you read the article it says how most of his weight is on the rear when he corners, the low tread is just down to Fort Will being so loose this weekend

 yup. Silly mechanic

 @gabriel-mission9: Out of curiosity, is that a problem? I'd assume that since he's Laurie's mechanic he knows what's best and has set it up correctly. But I'm just taking a guess, what's actually wrong with the screw being wound down so far?

 @Joebohobo: It pulls the upper jockey wheel further from the cassette. This will reduce shifting accuracy and also make it more prone to ghost shifts in the rough. It also moves the mech that much closer to any passing rocks etc.

There are no benefits unless you are remedying a slightly too long chain (which at pro level really shouldnt be happening) or there are compatibility issues between the frame and mech which cause the mech to foul on the dropout.

 @gabriel-mission9: Ah cheers for the reply, definitely seem odd then. Huge congrats to Laurie for his 8th though!

 the only time I've had to do the same is when a crap derailleur is hitting the frame while on the smallest cogs. I would guess that is not the case with such high end parts/frame, but who knows.

 you can't. Tues runs a custom headset, it is not a standard size if i remember correctly

 @mate1998: The older tues uses the same ht as the mondraker but its a rare headtube size so not many headset options available.

It looks like this headset is external so they can get that 12mm of adjustment while the works one is internal, I imagine its custom only if you want the same....

 @Racer951: the newer one (tues 2.0) is the one with custom sizes

 @mate1998: the new one is integrated - not custom as such but unique to YT - bearings go right in the headtube so no anglesets etc possible

 Can't find more than that ... But as soon as Commencal finally get their production right, they'll be selling some +10mm headtube cups (and then you run a classic ZS44 headset in it). Should have been available a loooong time ago, but due to production problems in TW, it's been pushed back.

But that +12 reach headset looks dope... any idea who's making it and if they plan selling it ?

 Nope, its just wrong. 2 cross is more rigid.