Ask Pinkbike: DIY Boost Hubs, Mixing Suspension Brands, and Softail Suggestions

 But I don't know, maybe I'm way off

 No, I think you've got a handle on it.

 that suspension "guru" is nothing more than a fanboy. thats exactly what adjustments are for

 @CGalbreath nope. someone says this whenever a new standard comes out.We thought that when 20mm came out and again when 15mm came out, then again when 142mm came out. f*ck... 9mm 100mm front and 135mm rear, 10mm bolt on front and rear, 20mm by 110m front, 9mm rear qr, 20mm front m axle, 20mm rear m axle, 15mm by 100, 12mm by 135, 12 by 142, 12 by150, 12 x 148, 12 x157, i quit. it's been "small changes" since the f*cking 90's thats 20 years!!!

I'm definetly missing some too haha. f*cking mountain bike standards.

ps. i'm not going to start on headset size, bb size, handle bar size hahhaha

 Despite all the pain in the butt from changing standards, I for one am IMMENSELY glad that we have 15mm through axles instead of 9mm quick release. Looking back, those things terrify me.

 @ratedgg13 f*ck that. they changed them just because after 20mm was introduced. with m axel light 20mm the weights were damn close but they changed it anyways.

 @makripper I didn't differentiate between 15mm and 20mm through axles. I'd happily have either of those over a quick release axle is my point.

 I think the MTB industry is going through way more sudden changes than moto ever did. Moto has evolved over time - nothing ever like this (29, slack geometry, Boost, 27.5, 27.5+ and so on). Those are MAJOR trends that have happened really, really fast.

The 4-stroke shook up the moto world when Yamaha put Doug Henry on it in '99, but it has a long road to travel before it was the machine it is today (which in-turn has made the 2-stroke nearly extinct today; KTM being the major exception).\

I'm blown away at all the overnight trends coming out of the mtb world and so quickly being adopted as "standards".

 The new standards are bs in my opinion. It's cool to have options but why have we completely given up on 26" wheels? The banshee darkside is promoted as having extremely short chainstays for an easy to whip and jump bike. But then look at the geometry with 650b. 17.1" chainstay in the slack position. That's the new short chainstay? At least banshee is one company that still offers a 26" dropout that allows people who actually want a 16.5" rear end and proper bb height.

 Mountainbiking is still evolving and in my opinion no where close to stable yet.
- Travel wise we seem to have stabilized eg no more +200mm forks but everything else is still changing.
- Rear axles are not stable at all! As DT has already made clear (amongst others) 148 boost is just the tip of the iceberg.
- Suspension technology seems to be stabilising as well with most brands making very decent suspension.
- Tires have also stabilised although plus/fat tires will probably be evolved further to allow lighter weight without paper thin sidewalls.
- Procore and other tubeless technology will continue to evolve and hopefully one day flats will be highly unlikely without resorting to heavy tires.
- Geometry will continue to evolve in the direction of longer and slacker because as has been said by many experts we aren't even close to the limits.

There have been needless changes for sure:
1. going to 35mm diameter handlebars from 31.8mm,
2. going to 15mm axles when 20mm was already available plus 20x110mm was already boost and thus 20years future proof!!!

People still gripe about the new wheelsizes but the fact of the matter is that just like 200mm double crown forks are better than 180mm ones for DH bigger wheels are better. In a few years there will only be 2 wheel sizes with several different widths for the different tires i.e. no new 559mm rimmed bikes being developed though just like 8speeds cassettes the rims/tires will still be sold though of course not at the highend scale.

 Can't agree more with the above point on 20mm hubs. I skipped a few years cycling and whet I returned 20mm had disappeared and been replaced by the narrower 15mm standard, which has now just got wider again.

 I'm way off modern standards:
20x110 in the front
Shimano Saint 2008 axle mounted rear mech (2008 was no rapid rise, the 2009 and later generations were no longer axle mounted)
octalink BB and cranks
26" wheels
2x9sp drivetrain
straight 1 1/8 " steerer
IS brake mount front and rear
27.2mm seat post diameter (and 26.8mm on the DMR)

Luckily I don't have the oversized centerlock for the Saint hub and rotors .

The thing is that typically the top end components are the first to comply to new or different standards. So if these quickly become obsolete (say, a new standard doesn't make it) these expensive components become hard to get replacements for. This Saint centerlock mentioned above, rapid rise stuff, full 1.5" steerer. I think it becomes harder to justify spending a lot on an expensive frame. Say you got a nice titanium Commencal 4X hardtail (2012), you'd expect it should last you a while. Then a few years from now you'd have to replace the fork and rear hub. So that's a straight steerer for a 26" fork. And a 135x12 thru axle hub in the rear. Chances are you can't get those from the high end brands anymore. Sure the sub top (Suntour etc.) will step up and probably do just fine, but it is not what you had in mind when you bought a bike for life. I'm not saying progress shouldn't happen, 142x12 sure is better than 135x12 but progress nowadays definitely makes you hesitant about investing into something new and valuable.

 Aren't motocross bikes change a lot as well? For instance, axle diameter?

 I don't really give a frock what the axle standards are in motocross. This is pinkbike, I'm here to read your posts and flames about......get this, let it sink in........mountain bikes !!

 Exactly. @mountainfish Mountain Bikes! Motoheads theres another site for you.

 for dirt bikes the only major change is fuel injection and air forks but the good thing about dirt bikes is that you can put that new stuff on a older one, like suspension, probobly not fuel injection but most of the other technology

 @mountainfish: right on!!! were talkin MTB baby!!!!

 You mean 2 weeks?

 This is just like boost but with none of the benefits........

 The benefit is having almost as stiff a setup without buying new hubs and relacing your wheels.

 i drink a boost for breakfast, 12 speed for dizzert...

 ^This

 Sorry, my "this" comment was in response to maxlombardy. He has it exactly.

I'm using the Boostinator (at least part of it) on my Mavic Crossmax, latest version of those wheels. It works perfectly. Just on rear as my fork is not Boost.

Shifting is unchanged as the cassette spacing is unchanged; braking is perfect (no rub, perfectly centred) as the 6mm spacer between the rotor and the hub moves the rotor over. Redishing the wheel 3mm took about 10 minutes.

Because Lindarets doesn't make a NDS end cap for Mavic I had one made up by a machinist.

It's a great way to be able to use your existing wheels in a Boost frame.

 I read an article a while back, might have even been RC where they said that wider hub spacing was a good thing but they were saying that if they were going to change it they should have gone significantly wider than boost to create a lasting standard. Where boost was more a half measure that would be surpassed in the future as an even wider standard would be needed(wanted)

 Honestly I think it's just silly putting adapters on a 142mm or 100mm hub. I feel like doing that may compromise the "stout" factor. Plus you're missing the whole point since the flanges are the same width as they were before...

 Probably in relation to impending 12speed........

 @jon123rjk I believe you're missing the point of boost. Simply a placebo effect with the adapters. Plus why the hell would you spend the money buying a "Boost Frame" and fork and then not bother buying a new set of wheels? Even if you had a nice set of hubs you might as well hold on to those for your non boost bike. I'm pretty sure you still have the same stress on the spokes with or without the adapters. So ya you're missing the point of the wide flanges which alleviates the stress.

 Dishing the wheel 3mm over because of the adaptors would give you a less dished, thus stronger wheel using a 142 hub.

What Pyga have done on the stage max is the right idea. Move the cassette outwards, allowing a more symetrical and wheel.

While on the rear wheel I can see there is a marginal benefit, Boost on the front is just a waste of time unless you're called $RAM and are in it for the Dollar.

 I think a placebo effect would be if I thought the wheels were stronger with this solution. I don't at all. I do think they're AS strong at least. And the point is it allows me to run my existing wheels in a boost frame.
That's all.

The frame I wanted -- the new 5010 -- came only with boost. Sure in an ideal world I should buy new wheels with boost hubs.
But the only wheels I'd want to replace my Crossmax would be carbon. That's minimum $1200USD. Not sure if you know anything about our Cdn dollar but it suck right now. So those wheels are closing in on $2000 Canadian.

At some point I'll spring for them but for now the Boostinator is a great solution.

 @jon123rjk: Still liking this setup? I'm contemplating it for my bike as I'm in the same situation. Would have to buy the Boostinator and a new rear cassette but would be a ton cheaper than completely rebuilding the wheel and having half boosted wheelset. Thanks!

 @ptldbkr: I ended up getting a new wheelset with boost rear hub.
I still have the other wheelset with the Boostinator as a spare. I used them for a few months and it did the job for sure if you want to keep your existing wheels.
It's not perfect but it is a great -- and inexpensive -- way of running your existing wheels in a boost frame.

 @jon123rjk: 6 months later on this thread! Hahaha what did you not like that was not "perfect?"

 ^^Comment win!

 Thanks dude. That's the only laugh I had all day. Too funny.

 100% win.

 spit my coffee out

 I'm convinced that there really is no such thing as the "perfect" suspension tuning. There's just the tuning that works for each individual rider, and the ideal tuning can vary a TON from one rider to the next.

The most helpful suspension gurus can guide you toward finding settings that work best for you, but it's a process.

Anyone who says they'll set up your suspension for you is full of crap.

 Not really misunderstood at all. For the 'guru' to say a Pike will be totally outclassed is nonsense. We all know riding a genuinely shitty or older piece of suspension with something much better on as well will produce a difference. But to say the Pike would be outclassed by the X2 is just being dim-witted.

 Lol, to add to that comment, the "suspension experts" at my former bike shop took it upon themselves to "even up my suspension," presumably so it felt the same front and back. Needless to say, it rode like sh!t cuz they knew nothing about me.

 The pike is outclassed by fox? So, a single fork is outclassed by a whole brand. Reasonable logic. Clearly you have a favourite in this argument, whereas I just think a 'guru' saying a pike is effectively useless when used with an x2 is a total cock-womble and ahoukd be treated as such.

 See... What you have done, is somehow make out like I said either was shit? I know fox are making great stuff, everyone knows that they are.

But again, to be a 'guru' and tell somebody that they can't ride a pike and an x2 together is just nonsense of the highest order. That's all I said. I'm pretty sure santa cruz know if a bike rides ok... They aeem pretty happy with the combo for them. So to say they can't work together is ridiculous.

You turned it into a baffling argument about whether fox are good or not.... Which I never said.

 I run a zocchi 350cr and a float x ctd on my commencal v4AM and have had 2 dudes from the same shop tell me that A. it won't work and the bike will feel dead. or B. is a sweet set up and that I made a good choice spec'ing it.....

There is almost zero consistency in around here (Sydney) when is comes to your LBS.


(the mixed suspension works a treat btw)

 This dude is so right. If you're a good rider, you won't need dual suspension most of the time. Only for insane rought stuff is when you really need it.

 I would've argued with you a few months ago, until I bought my Trek Superfly SS (rigid singlespeed). It's a blast to ride, and like @molloser said a full suspension rig is overkill for many trails. My local mellow trails are so much more fun on the rigid, it's really opened my eyes up. My Yeti SB5 has been collecting a little dust!

 Saw a research where they showed fullies even are faster on many xc trails. It allows you to keep pedaling better on bumpy ground and the time you save with faster descents roughly neutalizes against the time you save up hill by having a bike that's 1kg lighter (hardtail). I love riding my ss rigid Kona Unit, but I'm better off on my fully purely because of back aches after riding the hardtail. If your back is shit like mine, a fully is much better. Purely because it puts less stress on my back so I will be able to keel mountainbiking till an older age than if I'd mainly ride a hardtail on trails. I love how rigid hardtails feel though and they do make you a better rider.

 I'm hoping that caption was a joke.

 how much for the yeti?

 @ molloser I agree, I'm 59yrs old this year and ride a Banshee hardtail, going full suspension when I get older.

 @molloser Agreed! I enjoy riding gnarly stuff on my hardtail. Granted, it's a cheap bike and stuff breaks on it a lot, but it's a cool change of pace. Still prefer full sus though.

 Have you tried adding some extra angles to reduce that stiffness? Just 1.256mm can increase your pants-comfort by 34.875% Those are totally real world numbers, not something we thought of in a marketing meeting.

 Totally serious. Didn't you know the equation for objective Comfort is

C = B_u * l^2 / sh *it

/sarcasmOutTheAss

 haha your fuc*@(@% Einstein of mtb

 Everybody knows that comfort is very easy to scientifically measure, all you need is a good quality comfort-meter. I use mine all the time when scoping out new tires, chains and valve stems. I even bought a sofa-nator conversion kit for it so I can measure the comfort of my couch.

 Hi @biking85, @dclinton, @AdamOdh and @ecrider,

Just to clarify. We say that our new Alma has a 211% improvement in vertical impact absorption. This number is the result of a testing comparison between our 2012 Alma and the latest one. A fixed weight was applied to the saddle and deflection of the seat post was measured. A combination of reduced seat post diameter and slimmer seat stays on the newer design amounted to just over twice as much deflection. We called this "comfort" because "vertical deflection" might be more accurate but isn't as meaningful when talking about what the rider can expect to feel. Sorry for any confusion!

Regards.

 @orbea .... and now it's silent

 Yeah no kidding. My CCDB/Pike setup is awesome.

 Same here, bad experiences with shops. Until you find a good one.

 Aww yeah! My bike shop is 200km drive away. There's local shops, but it's just not the same.

 To be fair the guy didn't say the "guru" was from a shop, I mean maybe he was, but it's not necessarily the case, plus there are plenty of A-hole know-it-alls out on the trails, or commenting on forums

 lol! and most people haven't ridden either the x2 or the pike, let alone on the exact bike the guy has. too many variables.

 gozerthegozarian For sure...I'm definitely generalizing and/or reading between the lines a bit here. Sadly, it's since ALL of the bad a-hole biker experiences I've had (or heard of) were from a shop. The ones I've met on the trails have all been great! Except whistler bike park....still a few d-bags roaming around there, unfortunately.

PS. That's my honest (and very disappointing) experience, by the way.....not just a jab a whistler. I was actually seriously unimpressed by some of the total jerks our there who think that park was built just for them : (

Luckily, for both bike shops and whistler, it's a FEW bad apples who are spoiling an otherwise GREAT community of people! A vast majority are still just your average, awesome, down-to-earth mountain bikers : )

 What happened in whistler?

 Mostly just a few guys convinced they were god's gift to mountain biking acting as such. One guy in the parking lot making dumb cracks (and being a general dick) about what I can only assume was due to an older bike I was riding at the time. Another few absolutely BLASTING down a blue trail high marking blindly off the sides of jumps yelling "get the F outta the way" as they bombed past people at dangerous speeds (for the record I'm by no means a novice rider).

In general, very similar to the kind of behavior I've seen from cocky, park-rat types that I've met before when skiing. It was the first time I'd seen the same behavior from mountain bikers. Very unimpressive....but thankfully, these "bad apples" were still just a small minority.

 I'm lucky enough to have a dream LBS. You know it's a good one when you break your axle trying to pack your bike for a flight for a 24 hour race in the Yukon, and after emailing them at 10pm at night in a panic they're at the store an hour before opening to give you the part you need on the way to the airport.

 While Fox36 is one of the best if not the best fork out there it cannot outclass even a Suntour fork anymore, it's 2016, all stuff got good. It's not 2003 when you had Marzocchi Z1 and the next closest competitor, far far behind was Rock shox Judy SL.

 It was 1998 Moots came out with the ybb the first rear suspension bike as far as I know, (which aint that far) it was steel back then. In 1991 started using Titanium. has 1 1/8 inch rear softness. Super low maintenance.
Killer bikes... real pricey.

 It's not carbone. It HAS to be carbone. There is no substitute.

 Sorry 1988 was the first YBB. D'oh!

 www.mombat.org/Moots.htm

1991 was apparently the first proto

 "The YBB suspension has been a staple in Moots’ lineup of softtails since 1988, when the company first began prototyping the pivotless system in steel. By 1991, Moots had refined a titanium version, and it has basically been the same since".
Yeah. From Moots.

 It's sarcasme. It HAS to be sarcasme. There is no substitute. When you buy ti you buy for life. Not a disposable plastic bike like carbon.

 $3655.00 for the frame.. yeah life!

 $3655 for 10+ years vs $3000 for a few years of life expectancy. I'll take ti please!

 Not that I can afford either....

 hahah taht thing belongs in a museum they brought the thudbuster out in the early 90's stupid cane creek.

 The cane creek website explains how good the seat post is with pictures. Perfect for folding bikes and tandems.

 Elastomer garbage hahaha can't believe they are remotely relevant to someone.

 Lol just put a shit load of air in ur dropper post and tape the lever down

 I use a thud buster on my older HT and it works amazingly well. Cane creek makes decent stuff. What's your issue? Personally I'm confused as to what the point is of 10mm of travel?? 10mm?? Are they serious? All that R&D to engineer in 10-12mm of travel??

 @tratlif1

Im gonna go on a limb here and say that you are a dentist.

Seriously 200 for a seatpost? And even worst a specialised seatpost.

 How much is a reverb?

 That elastomer seat post looks great but only for specific applications. I could see using that on a touring or commuting bike. It would pedal efficiently, is light weight, doesn't get in the way of gear and would nicely take the impact out of seams in pavement while seated.

 I was on the fence with a lot of frames which were 210% more comfortable...........but 211%......SOLD!

 I couldn't decide between the Trek and the Canyon until I read that the Trek has a healthy 11mm of compliance vs the anemic 10.9mm of the Canyon. Now that I'm educated I have thrown eight wheelbarrows of cash at my local Trek dealer and burned down a Canyon warehouse.

 ^^ that's giving it 211%

 So true. I hopped on a buddies bike last week, and I swear our suspension set-ups could not possibly be more different. We ride the same trails at the same speeds, but each person has their own idea of what feels "right".

 You're kidding right?

 Trek Stache?

 Not soft tail. Actually I've heard that the Stache's aluminum frame combined with the rigid design of the rear triangle makes it maybe overly stiff.

 @PHeller sounds like your solution would be a steel framed bike like the surly Krampus. I just built one up as a play/bike packing rig and love it. Steel has a little more give than an aluminum or carbon frame. Mine is built as a ridgid but it's suspension correctable.

 The Spec Enduro 29" has 430mm stays, the Stumpy FSR 29" has 437mm. (I ride a Transition Patrol so no S brand fanboy). My riding buddy has the Enduro and loves it. He is a full on DH guy, so I was surprised to see he really digs that 29"

 I don't understand this. So you want a softail + bike and you're afraid of stiffness? You don't need bmc's micro travel with big tires, the 15mm are ridiculous

 Maybe you need one of these; I know I do.
moots.com/bike/mountaineer

 @PHeller this is some advanced trolling. I salute you sir.

 There's this brand called Kona that makes the Process 111 which is exactly that..

 Canfield EPO?
Bigger tires, lower pressure.
Its an agressive 29er hardtail.

 It's so ugly though :/

 Sorry mate you'll have to get a new bike if you want to run 1x11.

 Im not 6, thanks for your useless input you mutt

 Funny that you have nothing better to do than troll pinkbike forums and try to be funny. Get a hobby bro

 And I don't really see why anyone would feel need to convert a hub to boost standard in the first place. Yes, there might be such a scenario, the guy wouldn't be asking otherwise... but... well, the only one I know who might be tempted is my dentist, who really would like to exchange his 2015 Bronson for the 2016 version with boost, but would probably like to not purchase the complete bike this time around (the missus might object to a new five figures bike every year), therefore he might want to keep the Enve wheels for the time being...

But in any real world scenario, someone willing to spend the money for a new boost frame and fork, and then not using the advantages of boost and saving a little money by keeping his old wheelset... hmmm.

 You would have to pry my "unbalanced" CCDB/Pike combo from my cold dead hands before getting me to switch to a matched set.

 Exactly, This "Guru" is an idiot

 They're on both of them

 @pm148 technically yes you're correct it is currently on both the Domane and the Madone.

Iso Speed was how ever originally developed for the classics in Europe. It began on Trek endurance road platform the Domane that was released in 2012 if I remember correctly.

Since then it has branched on to Trek Premium Cyclocross platform the Boone and most recently in (June 2015) the Procaliber (Cross Country) and Madone (Aero road race)

 Yeah, for the miniscule 300g weight penalty on your XC race bike...

 The thudbuster constantly varies your seat height, it is one of the weirdest feelings out there. Not mention its heavy and ugly...Treks isospeed works amazingly well, and has literally zero drawbacks.

 When you do a XC race that has a constant moderately rough trail surface and the seated compliance makes a lot of sense

 @trailbicyclesbc

Right on buddy...no drawbacks except for the $$$ you have to spend to get the frame with that "technology".

 to clarify, I'm talking about the trek frame, the thudbuster is for hybrids on bike paths

 These bike brands probably found their old stockpile of 1980's elastomers and were like we can build bikes with these and claim fancy technology!