Intense Launch Second Generation Tracer

 It must climb like an XC bike and descend like a downhill bike...

 Last year was all about the short-travel playful bikes, now we're back to the long-travel playful bikes. Round and round we go.

 Soooo...you Traced a 3 year old Nomad?

 Except carry a waterbottle, because apparently backpacks are enduro

 @Lookinforit: yeah its sad it cant. and everyone should stop spec'ing those POS reverbs tbh

 @scary1: and even copied one of the color schemes.

Thanks, but no thanks. I'll wait for the next gen Nomad.

 @goflowz: so far, the new one is much better

 Fashion is out of fashion...

 @scary1:

Cross between a Nomad and Reign?!?!?

 @WasatchEnduro: Reign? Why a Reign?

 @chillrider199: ... And it also must jump like an AM/DJ bike!

 Funny, the review posted today said it doesn't climb well.

 @chillrider199:

because of the newfangled long lower links..... looks reign-ish. not to mention a flattened curve, gonna be more plush than traditional vpp's maybe?

 @WasatchEnduro: A Romeign?

 @scary1: it's called the Tracer for a reason i guess

 the basic model is around $5000 and comes with RS Yari!! WTF?!

 LiT .. finance tha Elite frame In a heartbeat

 If you wait, they will be 50% off by the end of the year.

 Full price is £10K


www.bikeradar.com/mtb/gear/category/bikes/mountain-bikes/full-suspension/product/intense-tracer-275-c-2017-factory-review-50999

 @Stenimir: Welcome to Intense :/

 @Stenimir: and shimano BLM506 brakes.....!!!!!!!

 No prices...because honestly, if you have to ask, this isn't the bike for you.

 Dean said it does like a solo bike .

 @Stenimir: What glorious value for money

 @bikekrieg: yep...i get the whole premium bike thing...but the price is like it's custom made for you, which it isn't. For that kind of money I could build a Yeti SB6 with really good parts

 @Stenimir: So you are saying that for the same money, you could buy an equivalent level bike.

 just wait for the aluminum version by spring. guaranteed

 @oquartly: No thanks

 Just wanted to point out, for example, that we do have a US builder of carbon frames - Alchemy. Their carbon AM frame is $3700 and takes just short of three months to get. It's also not terribly reliable. But if you prioritize "Made in America" over quality, price, and style, then I highly recommend them.

Pretty much everybody who is selling a carbon bike is having the frame built in Asia because that's where the best carbon comes from. "Made in America" doesn't always mean top quality.

 Guerilla Gravity is handmade in Denver, Colorado.

 If you're referring to the Intense, this is definitely not an "Asian catalog bike." This thing was engineered by Intense, for their customers, to meet their design goals. Then the design was sent to their Asian manufacturer and I'm sure they worked closely with them to ensure the carbon was properly built.

I have no love for Intense, but this is a massive over simplification of the amount of work and engineering that goes into building these bikes.

Also, you have the option to buy US made carbon, get an Alchemy Arktos...

 @TheRaven: Yea, but there are some companies (not many) that are selling their Asian made frames at a more reasonable price.

 @coster: aluminum

 @coster: No carbon no life

 @pigit77: Ummmm... I think you've been conned. Almost every Trump product for sale has a Made in China sticker on it. And all those beautiful hotels? I'm pretty sure they're not made with American steel...

 @pigit77: If Trump can bring more jobs back to the US, I would fully support that effort, as long as he doesn't also tank the economy, eviscerate our social safety net, let the banks run wild again, let his companies profit from his decisions, let Russia take over Ukraine, and continue fill our news cycle with new lies and word diarrhea every day

 @McNubbin: Just because those frames are built in Asia, and Intense's frames are also built in Asia, doesn't make them equal. You can buy crappy carbon in Asia and you can buy top-of-the-line carbon in Asia, and everything in between.

To say that Intense just clicks "buy" on some Chinese carbon website is grossly incorrect...there is a ton of R&D done here before the design goes to Germany, where it is refined by guys who live and breathe carbon. Then it goes to Asia where it enters the production prep process also managed by guys who live and breathe carbon.

 @pigit77: Unidirectional ban!

 When people talk about bringing manufacturing back to the US price is never discussed. Do you understand how much more it would cost to manufacture bikes in the US? If you think they're expensive now, they will be substantially more expensive if that happens.

Do you think the manufacturer just sucks up those extra costs? Nope. The additional cost gets put on the bike and we pay for it.

 How on earth does "buy American" make any sense in a global economy? The person who makes the product with the highest quality, or does so at the most efficient price should get my business, regardless of the accident of where they were born.

 @hamncheez: Yeah, that's perfectly fine. Unless of course you care about having a job.

 @TheRaven: if you want a job, do something better then the competition. @hamncheez is 100% right.

 @TheRaven: So a US job is prefered to an Asian one? I happen to believe that all people are equal. Also, it is a complete economic fallacy that trade barriers raise the standard of living in a given country. All the evidence there is points to the exact opposite conclusion.

 @hamncheez: It has nothing to do with preference. I'm speaking about a US resident buying foreign goods. Obviously, said US resident needs to work to make the money to buy those goods. So said US resident would certainly prioritize HIS job over the job of a foreign resident.

 @hamncheez: yes, your talking about liberty which isnt really taught now.
You know, the statue of liberty...was about free enterprise not about immigration.(the poem on base was a fundraiser for the base, aside and well after the statue).
Jobs will come from lowering corporate tax rate and making the country business friendly.(less regs) crony capitalism is when lawmakers favor specific companies within an industry.
Rinos did this with corn(ethonal), dems have done it with alt energy(musk).

 @jrocksdh: I agree, except that immigration is free trade in the labor market.

 @TheRaven: I do not employ myself. Buying American vs Taiwanese has no difference to my employment, just as buying made in Utah vs made in California has no direct effect on my employment. However, if its cheaper for my to buy abroad, then I get more stuff per hour worked, so now i have more disposable income to spend elsewhere, including on the goods/services that are local to me. Free trade has been proven to boost local economies, not reduce employment.

 @hamncheez: That's where you are wrong. Send all your money overseas and that's where the jobs go too. It's been proven over and over again for decades. To think that your job can't be one that goes is just foolish.

I'm not bashing free trade...just pointing out that you can't stop caring about what's made here, lest you find yourself a victim of "globalism".

 @TheRaven: "All I know is I'm the one who needs to work" If that is the basis of your argument you are 100% right. But you isolated yourself and your country and ignored the rest of the world, or even worse, determined your need is more important than the rest of the worlds need.

This type of thinking is exactly what is wrong with the world.

 @tgent: To me, my need is more important than the rest of the world. That's absolutely right, and an instinctive position humans (yes still) need for survival. Now that's not to say that I think we need to legislate with the attitude of "It's all about us, screw everyone else". Absolutely not. However in the context of the modern world, we have been doing the opposite for nearly 30 years now...putting everyone else above us. That's a position that guarantees failure, and it's being proven before our eyes. Our once great industrial economy has been reduced to a service economy who's jobs have to be filled by foreigners because our own people are unable to afford the qualifications necessary to hold them. We need to start looking out for ourselves lest we will find ourselves left behind by a world that has moved on.

 @TheRaven: What you say is the exact opposite of what has been observed. Areas of the world that restrict or put preference on domestic manufacturing have lower incomes, higher living costs, and higher rates of unemployment.

If what you say is true, then we should ban trade across the Mississippi river. Or even better, across state lines. If protectionism really works, then lets ban trade across county lines! City lines! Better yet, if we ban any kind of exchange between individual people, I will be employed 16 hours a day, since i have to make all my own food and clothes and tools by myself.

 @hamncheez: Not consistently. Google "best countries to live in" and you'll find several countries that promote domestic products over imported and work hard to keep jobs within their borders.

 @coster: I'd rock that new Megatrail over a plastic bike any day.

 @TheRaven: Googling a single phrase doesn't compare with peer reviewed, rigorous studies. The best country to live in in the world is the USA, which for most of its history had some of the lowest trade barriers in the world. The US is also super large, diverse, and spread out, effectively creating the worlds largest free trade zone for 200 years. One of the best metrics for the well-being of citizens in different countries is the economic freedom index:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom

The USA used to be in the top 3, but we have dropped and dropped in the last decade. You'll also notice that the "best countries to live in" google results are very close to the list of countries at the top of the Economic Freedom Index. Free trade and immigration are among the top metrics of the Economic Freedom Index.

 You are wildly misinformed and couldn't be further from
the truth. We have never just picked a bike from any catalog. Every single bike we produce always starts as an alloy proto. Then usually go through 2-3 variations before we find the perfect fit. The new tracer has been in development for over 2 years with countless alloy hand welded prototypes. Did you not watch the video ? It shows just a few of the early renditions of the Tracer. Then we get carbon samples and test ride them for months making tweaks and adjustments as necessary. Not to mention all the feed back from our World Cup team. You say your over US companies giving up and not making the best. Well I'm over keyboard warriors who's sole purpose is to spread un informed hate, negativity and lies. Do borrow a quote from you, "harden the F*** up" and do research before you speak again.

 @hamncheez: So basically what you're saying is "according this metric that uses globalism as one of it's top criteria, globalism is the best".

Not to mention the fact that we are not at odds on free trade. Again, I am not against free trade. I am against our tendency to put other countries interests AHEAD of ours.

Finally, the list I was referring to was a peer reviewed, rigorous study.

www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/01/20/these-are-the-worlds-best-countries-sorry-america-youre-number-4/?utm_term=.afbf5173bd5f

 @hamncheez: immigration law-work visas.

 @TheRaven: your defining and showcasing the differences between trump populist-nationalist ideals vs conservatism/capitalism.
Your ideas(trump isolationist)are scary to constitutional conservatives/liberty.

 my last comment was for @bizutch

 Reading way too much into my statement. Very black and white and the obvious intent is this.

Stop "engineering" here and figure out how to "make" it here. Take pride it making it yourself. Take initiative in figuring out how to make it in a cost effective (if not cheaper) manner here.

Getting pretty tired of hearing how it's just not cost effective to do here. We are as capable mentally of achieving greatness as any other society. I've come to a conclusion (no science or data to back it up) that it's all just an excuse.

If someone in America wants to dedicate their brilliance to coming with a product made in the US at competitve (and by competitive I mean less expensive than the competition...because US companies seem to think that "competitive" pricing means the same price or hair more than Exhibit A over here) prices, I think it can be done.

It takes a DESIRE to make it top quality and less expensive. Bike companies sitting in SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA paying insane costs for everything just because of where they are is one thing. They are too close to the shipping containers of all the major ports to bother! Why are we listening to importers of goods on the West Coast telling us what US companies can or cannot make?

 @bizutch: You have no understanding of either business or economics.

 @bizutch: It's not that they don't know how to build their carbon frames here - it's actually pretty simple - find a reputable manufacturer who can reliably supply the volume necessary in the timeframe necessary, and work out a price that allows you to sell your bikes competitively. There is no magic design involved.

The problem is that so far, such a manufacturer does not actually exist, at any quantity or price level. The current trade situation in this country is such that it's not actually possible to manufacture carbon frames here and expect to be able to pay the bills. It's not something that can be designed, planned, or invented into existence. The only path to a remedy is a political one, and as you may have heard, there's a new guy in charge who's working on that very issue. That's not to say that I believe a remedy is coming. Just that it's being looked at.

 @bizutch: I'm going to employ both you and @TheRaven to make Intense bikes as both of you seem to demand US manufacturing while completely ignoring the fact that it's cheaper in overseas.

You will both receive $0.20 per hour, as that's all I can afford to pay you and still remain competitive with Asian manufactured carbon. We will sell the made in the USA Intense for $3,000 massively undercutting the competition. The company will make no money after factoring in the numerous warranty and defect claims that will have to be fulfilled because you both suck at laying up carbon fiber. You will BOTH have GREAT jobs though, AND we won't pay taxes to the US Government, because our business is smarter than that!!

All problems solved!

 @bizutch: Well I see where you are coming from, but there is the reality of the situation. Intense can build asia-sourced carbon bikes, or they can go out of business in 2-3 years when alloy is completely phased out of top-echelon bike brands. I know which one I like better. We all love history, but unfortunately it remains just that - history.

 @tgent: Don't lump me in here, i'm not the one crying about bikes being built overseas.

 @TheRaven: If you don't have experience with designing frames, designing carbon weave or mass manufacturing of carbon sheet forming, then your complaining about getting a job that you are not qualified for. Which makes no sense!

If you are qualified in one or more of the above fields and can't find a job in your skill-set, that means either there is nothing in your area to hire you, or, there are already enough employees at the local facility and they are not hiring.

 @TheRaven: @TheRaven: Completely understandable, but would love to hear a core group of US bike manufacturers announce that they have decided to band together and work with (X) company, bring their collective talent, creativity and might together to develop a process and solution to do just that.

Trade incentives only work if you cash in on them, which the industry is definitely doing.

 @XCMark: His point is simpler. It's that a US product sourced from US suppliers and materials generates income that stays with US citizens. Money in the hands of US citizens does provide opportunity for US employees in other sectors to find work.

He's not saying he's directly attached to US carbon bicycle manufacturing facility employment. But someone who wants to barter with him for goods or services is

6 degrees of Kevin Bacon!

 @bizutch: That last point about 'income that stays with US citizens' is completely 100% opposite from what we observe in reality. If we do that, then Taiwan should keep their purchases, investments, etc in Taiwan. Canada should do the same. Europe should do the same. Now the only money we have in our economy is from US citizens. That means no electronics, no cars, no steel, no plastics, no anything. It means a lifestyle of 300 years ago.

If keeping money local is such a good idea, then lets ban trade across state borders. Its not fair that Pineapple growers in Minnesota have to compete with those in Hawaii. Its not fair that the Texas ski industry has to complete with Colorado and Utah.

 @TheRaven: your an idoit.

 @j0rdan: Coming from someone who hasn't said a word, intelligent or otherwise, to this point, nothing could be more of a compliment. Thanks!

 @hamncheez: Again, not correct. I don't see anyone here promoting the idea that we should trade with no one, and close our borders completely. I know it's tough to make your viewpoint strong work unless you try to pin anyone who disagrees as a staunch isolationist, but lets try to consider something other than black or white.

All we need to do is "level the playing field". If domestic manufacturers can compete free of trade agreements that give Asia the upper hand, both products and jobs will return to our country. The fact that it's cheaper for most companies to move all production to another continent and ship everything back is insane...but it's a situation our government has created and even up until now has continued to support. Both China and Japan place substantial tariffs on American goods imported to their countries, yet we literally PAY THEM to send their stuff here. That's suicide. We don't need to give China the middle finger. We simply need to say "OK, you are going to tax our stuff, we're going to tax yours". Yes it's not that simple, but for the sake of conversation, that should get the point across.

That's all that's being said here.

 @TheRaven: Hey, I agree with those two points- tarrifs are bad and we shouldn't subsidize any industry.

We complain about what china does, but then we subsidize our own stuff like sugar, which is just as unfair to others as what China does to us.

 @hamncheez: See that, we actually agree. As that's really all i'm trying to say, we really have no argument at all.

 @TheRaven: Advocating for tariffs on the importation of goods is not sound trade policy. Tariffs are the least efficient way to regulate trade, causing a decrease in consumer surplus and producer surplus that does not make up for the additional tax revenue they generate. That is the reason the US government has positioned itself against huge tariffs and regulation. With that in mind, the level playing field is the global market. Asia doesn't have an upper hand in anything except less expensive labor and manufacturing costs. Meaning that for production to move back to the US, labor either needs to be as cheap as it is in Asia, or capital needs to be employed to offset labor costs. If neither of those conditions is met, the price of a bicycle will be astronomical. And if costs are offset by capital production (meaning machines instead of people) that will simply mean a similar loss of jobs due to automation, which accounts for far more job losses in manufacturing in the US than outsourcing.

You mentioned the tax and trade relations between Japan and the US and Chine and the US in that it's suicide. That assumption assumes that we are buying and selling equal quantities of goods, which is not the case. The ongoing trade dynamic between the US and Asia is overwhelmingly that the US is the consumer and Asia is the producer. It's like the trade deficit with Mexico. Deficit sounds like a bad thing but all that means is that we buy fruit and textiles and other goods in exchange for money. If Mexico, China and Japan bought more goods from the US than the US did from them...we would be living in an alternative universe where the US is a poor nation that can produce things cheaply with cheap labor and those other three countries are the wealthier consumer of US goods.

It may seem unfair that Asian producers are taking manufacturing away from the US, that trying to move manufacturing to the US is a good idea for jobs or that the odds are stacked against the US by trade regulations that they put in place (why would the US agree to a trade policy that hurts itself if it's the most powerful person at the bargaining table?) but these are simply the outer appearances of the global market. What you are advocating will cause huge inefficiencies in the US market and manufacturing. Bikes would cost more for US consumers and US producers while in the meantime when the US is screwing around with an artificially attractive market with it's borders, more efficient producers not insulated from the world market will run away with cheap production costs, a surplus of money for R&D and eventually become the technological leader and most efficient producer. If those effects are exacerbated over time, this policy has the potential to cripple the US bike industry in the long run.

Simply put, tariffs are bad for everyone and don't achieve the results you're hoping for. It's up to the individual firm to find the most efficient way to manufacture bikes. If you don't trust me, head down to your local university and get your own degree in international economics.

And @j0rdan "you're" an idiot, not your.

 @Vaclav: You don't need to give me a lesson in economics. I'm all set thanks. Besides, your lesson is not really applicable because what you have illustrated is how it's SUPPOSED to work. I'm talking about how it actually works in the real world. It would be nice if theory held in practice but it pretty much never does.

The reality of the situation is that our competitors are not playing fair, and this blows all your rules out of the water. That's why I used the term "level the playing field". We have been trading at a massive disadvantage for decades, and where we are now is proof of why this approach does not work. Once again the attitude "we are right because we believe we are right" has failed us and it's time to return to reality and acknowledge that we are not the smartest kid in the room. So we can sit here and talk about how it should work all day while we watch our jobs and the center of the world economy move to Asia, or we can start looking out for ourselves for once.

 @TheRaven: In what way are our competitors not playing fair? Why does this blow the rules out of the water? In what way is the US trading at a massive disadvantage? Can you cite specific examples to back up these ambiguous claims? So far all you have done is chant the same mantra that it's all wrong without explaining what is wrong through real world examples.

Your claim that "We are right because we believe we are right" also applies to your line of reasoning. In your mind you are correct, but evidence and fact (not just theory) point to the contrary. The US has been looking out for itself in terms of international trade. Again, why would the US government not be making trade deals with its own interests in mind when it has more power than its trading partners with which it is making these deals? And if they have, please give some examples of when the US sabotaged itself in trade policy. The goal has been to pursue a lower cost of goods. It has worked out pretty well and if we change it the price of goods will go up, adversely affecting each and every consumer in the US. This is a point you have not refuted. Do you disagree? Are you willing to trade a low price of goods for a larger financial burden and supposedly more jobs on purchasing goods foreign and domestic?

Please explain how tariffs are going to change this? Why is automation not as big of a problem when it has been documented that it eliminates more manufacturing jobs than outsourcing?

 @Vaclav: I guess you are not up to speed on the US harmonized Tariff code.....Its 99 chapters long and has been massaged by special interest groups and lobbyists for years. Bikes are covered in chapter 87, we are already taxing imported bikes from 5.5-11%. The inequality we are facing is when China or other countries slap a tariff or VAT that makes our exports not competitive. Take a car for example, sell a USA made car in China you face a 25% duty, 17% VAT, and a 1-40% consumption tax. Now importing a car from China to the US is 2.5%, plus state sales tax........not a very level field we have, is it?

 @Vaclav: DCI17 has covered your first paragraph so I won't waste space on redundancy.

"why would the US government not be making trade deals with its own interests in mind when it has more power than its trading partners with which it is making these deals?"

You are clearly not very well versed in US government. Read up on the term "beaurocracy" and add "american" into the search for an eye-opener. One excellent specific example is the Trans Pacific Partnership. Since you have some economics chops, i'm sure you'll find yourself shaking your head just as much as I did when I studied the deal.

"The goal has been to pursue a lower cost of goods"

Well there it is...you have given the perfect example right in the midst of your questions. The single-minded goal has been lower cost of goods, with no regard to the long-term expense of such a pursuit. Only now are we learning about the long-term cost.

"Why is automation not as big of a problem when it has been documented that it eliminates more manufacturing jobs than outsourcing?"

Because automation is evolution and cannot be stopped, and the phenomenon itself does come with balancing factors (creation of new jobs and the elimination of certain costs inherent in human-powered production). Furthermore, automation is only a concern in select fields. This is one that i'm an expert on because i'm in the field.

 @DCI71: Nice! Thanks for the details, because no, I have not memorized the US Harmonized Tariff Code.

So if imported bikes are taxed at 5.5-11%, how many more bike manufacturing jobs in the US has that created? Would more tariffs add more US jobs, or result in the same inefficiencies that I suggested before?

As for cars, does the US want to export cars to China? Is that the goal? To make cars cheaper in China? If we want to reorganize the entire economic system of US manufacturing, then yes, those tariffs are bad, but I don't think that's our goal. Our goal is to make cars in the US cheaper for US consumers. The US government is looking out for US consumers by designing the system to make cars in the US cheaper, on behalf of US producers. What lobbyists do you think were in there massaging the trade regulations? I'd bet it's a lot of US auto industry lobbyists. Leveling the playing field is a great term until you realize what that means for US consumers. The playing field is not level, it's tipped massively in favor of lower costs of goods in the US. If we were to make parallel restrictions like we see with importing US made cars to China, prices will increase similarly. "Leveling the playing field" in that way benefits Chinese producers and hurts US consumers. Even if that creates more jobs in US manufacturing, how many jobs is it worth to increase the average price of cars by an additional 25% duty, 17% VAT, and a 1-40% consumption tax? ...especially when automation already eliminates many of those jobs in the US as we have cheaper capital versus labor costs compared to Asia?

Overall, China makes goods for the US, the US doesn't make goods for them and that's reflected in our trade policy. Do you want to change that? Do you understand the fundamental and near tectonic shifts in the power dynamics of the global economy that would require such a change in the producer/consumer relationship?

 @Vaclav: You are aware that both US auto manufacturers sell in China correct? Buick and Cadillac are HUGE over there in fact. Take a look at how much a Buick costs in the US vs how much it costs in China, despite the fact that the car you are comparing is likely even built IN China. GM builds many Buicks in China and ships them back here because it's cheaper to do so - despite the fact that China slaps a heavy tax on any of those cars that remain in China. Pretty neat huh?

You have been talking alot about "making things cheaper in the US"...again, great theory and I don't disagree that this is a noble pursuit. Once again the reality is different though. The reality is that as these deals are made, the Chinese exporters simply realize that they can now charge more for a given product. So we never see the price reduction, but we do see the loss of jobs due to the fact that it's now cheaper to produce or operate a service in another country. Again, the Chinese are smart enough to see this and realize that taxing imports is the method that actually works.

 @TheRaven: This is the crux of this argument: "So we never see the price reduction, but we do see the loss of jobs due to the fact that it's now cheaper to produce or operate a service in another country." That is simply not the case. We do see price reduction, otherwise manufacturing would move to the US. US firms (all firms) will seek out the cheapest manufacturing. Manufacturing prices are translated into the price of goods. If production moves to a more expensive place, goods will be more expensive. We do see some US job losses, but to contend that price is not affected is not true. Yes, "Chinese exporters simply realize that they can now charge more for a given product," but so will any producer, and even if Chinese producers charge more, the goods will still cost less. How do we know that? Because bike producers aren't idiots, they have and will seek out the cheapest way to make their bikes, because they want to sell bikes.

Anyway, we're all way too deep into this conversation and I don't see either of us convincing each other of our positions. I'm enjoying our back and fourth, but do you see a resolution coming up? ...I personally have other shit to do today. I basically don't think the US should be chasing low skill jobs that moved abroad, but pushing forward in other frontiers of manufacturing and industry. If we focus so heavily on industries that naturally moved away, policy will be fighting a powerful outflow of business that I just don't think is worth chasing down. And again, I want to back up that position with the assumption that goods will be more expensive if manufactured in the US when the market has driven them abroad. I'm sure you disagree, but I'm out of this comment thread. Have fun everyone!

 @Vaclav: At 5.5% to 11% it has not created too many US jobs, but we are taxing the bikes and they are selling. At 20% import duty maybe it does create more reason to produce in the US, an industry insider would know more the me. The point is, we are getting screwed in many deals, like cars where our competitors tax us out of being able to compete. And....YES we want to export a ton of cars and heavy machinery, and many other products in a manner that has some resemblance of fair trade. When a $25K Ford sells for $75k in China it severely limits the sales potential, don't you agree? Is that fair for the US worker? You're use of terms such as, "near tectonic" are kind of funny....like there is no solution, no hope but that is simply not true for many industries. Less labor intensive product have a chance...to come back, and if we can level the field a bit on the other side we can export more of what we already make here.

 @Vaclav: True that it doesn't matter anyway, with Trump in office now we will get to see who is right.

 @Vaclav: Bravo! Its nice to see someone who has some economic literacy.

@DCI71 I think the point that Vaclav is trying to make that fighting a tariff with a tariff of your own is like shooting yourself in the left foot to punish someone who shot you in the right foot.

 @hamncheez: The problem is that while I can see basis for your metaphor in theory, in reality it has not worked that way. In reality it's more like we got shot in the foot by someone else, so we are now going to shoot them in the foot too. Would it be better for neither of us to bullets in our feet? Definitely. Unfortunately it's too late for that.

 Νoone wants a cheap bike. We want a decent bike at a decent price and a decent quality.

 I bought a Tracer 2 in 2010 and it cracked on the seat post so it was promptly replaced with a 2012 T275 which was nice but the rear triangle cracked. That was replaced. When building it up I realised the reason it had cracked was the piviot points were litteraly miles out which is why I had been going through bearings as well. So that got replaced as well...with a carbon 2016 T275. Boom.
Have I lost faith a bit? Yes. But I have not had to buy a new bike for 6 years and I have had good service from both Extra and Saddleback who are the past and present importers.
Would I buy another one? They are amazing to ride but totally unsuited to the UK due to the vpp link clogging up with mud and the unsealed vpp bearings. If I lived in California then I probably would consider it.

 ....totally unsuited is a bit harsh to be fair. They are fine. Just not as practical as others

 @ilovedust: a small bit of gorilla tape inside the linkage cavity around the BB stops pretty much all the mud and crap doing damage. Road the factory Primer over the past couple of months in all manner of slop and its sound.

 '14 Intense 951 evo. Couple full seasons of DH racing abuse, no issues, for what that's worth.

 I've had great customer service from Intense since 2002. I had an issue with my bike at Sea Otter Class years back. I rolled up to the Intense pit and the owner, Jeff Steber, was there wrenching. He had it fixed for me on the spot and I went back to race in my qualies. So much respect for Jeff and the company.

 Yeah another flawless experience here. Five different frames and not a single significant issue. They do have their quirks, as with any boutique bike, but the overall experience is among the absolute best in the business. I have never had to use their customer service for a major concern, but for smaller things (overhaul parts and replacement decals) Intense has been reasonably responsive and extremely helpful.

 @ilovedust: My experience as well! I don't understand the people that get bad customer service from Intense. I call them up and get someone immediately. They are pretty amazing with their warranty handling as well! No complaints here.

 @TheRaven: They are no longer boutique. They don't build their bikes in house anymore, press the order button and receive out of an Asian factory, have a ton of skus, and have the budget for a national and WC downhill team. The only thing boutique is their prices.

 @McNubbin: Then who is? I always considered brands like Intense, Yeti, SC, Pivot...etc...as Boutique. That's what pretty much everyone i've ever discussed the matter with has reinforced.

If you want to elevate the tag to the likes of Alchemy, Nikolai...etc, then fine, but in that case Intense is not charging "boutique" prices as both are significantly more expensive.

 And Trek builds their top Session here in house, certainly though they are not? So I'm thinking where the frame is built precisely is not the determining factor...

 owned multiple intense bikes for over ten years and never had a single issue. great customer service and riding the beast of the m16 right now

 @TheRaven: Alchemy, Nicolai, Turner, Liteville would be considered boutique. As far as price goes, the Turners are reasonable. And although not boutique, Giant sells their carbon bikes at a more reasonable cost.

 @McNubbin: Ok i'll go along with that, but then you are priced out of Intense's range. That was my point. Intense is competitive with other brands that have the same level of prestige.

 Intense has a bad rep on the internet from second-hand idiots spreading bad ifnormation, but every single person I've ever met in real life who rode one loved it. Myself included, I had the original tracer and loved it. I have since had a nomad and a bronson, and I liked the tracer much more than both. Rode it for 1000 miles including several enduro races around the rockies without issue.

 i had a T2 with a DBAir/Lyrik DH for a few years. loved that bike. it DID have a tiny crack in the seat tube develop that i didn't even notice when i went to sell it, had to take it back and refund the dude his money. had it custom painted so i didn't want to grind off the paint just to weld a 3 year old frame at that point... its a wall ornament now. was kinda blown, but not really, got its use worth IMO. good feeling bikes.

 Count me as another who's had issues. pivot bolts that wouldn't stay screwed in for an entire DH run, bearings seated so tightly I couldn't get them out to replace them, cracked lower links, etc. my buddies with Intenses are about split down the middle on problems/no problems.

 I had non-stop issues with my Carbine. Broken rear triangle, then the brake tabs snapped off two replacement rear triangles in a row. Took forever to get them warrantied. Was off my bike 3 out of the last 15 months due to issues. See post #28 for a summary:
forums.mtbr.com/all-mountain/anonymous-criticism-1030559.html

 @skelldify: You bring up a good point: I know more than a few people have had to wait on replacement parts for their frames to be manufactured. In fact, there is a seller on ebay that I got to talking to, & basically his entire business exists because he lives close to their headquarters, & goes down there & tells them what parts he's got backorders on, in order to get them to actually make some runs of those parts, because otherwise, people can't get Intense to make them.

 @groghunter: That makes sense. The biggest problem was that they kept telling me they'd send the parts out the next day, but it kept taking weeks!

 @ilovedust: Anyone besides me thinking about that scene in The Holy Grail...."and that one sank into the swamp, but this one..."

 Yeah, makes this brand new bike seem dated.

 This was what I looked for first last night when it was released...damn shame.

 Cutting corners on manufacturing, but still charging top-notch prices.

 I've had the first carbon tracer, nomad, and bronson 2 all for a full season, and I'm probably going to go back to Intense now.

 Two broken bikes (i've seen more than two with that same issue, but nonetheless) does not equal a design or build-quality problem. You have to remember they sell thousands.

 @TheRaven: Sure, but around here you don't see many of those, I haven't seen more than 5 Tracers on our Andes spots during last two years and 2 of them broke before my eyes.

 @mrpilsen: Wow i've seen more than that just in my local riding spots, which are not exactly destination riding spots.

 The shock is the big difference that I see, X2 vs Monarch plus, and perhaps a bit in the wheels as well, E13 vs Stans. But I agree, they're very close.

 The frame on the pro is different. Lighter

 I disagree with the "zero reason" assertion. I would pay more for an Intense than a Santa Cruz with no hesitation (already have in fact). I have nothing against SC's quality and reputation (they are essentially the same as Intense, after all)...however SC's bikes are boring as hell to me. I would gladly pay $6k for what I feel is an incredible looking Intense over $5k for what I feel is a snore-inducing SC. I just don't find SC bikes exciting...at all.

 Nailed it.

 @TheRaven: looks are subjective. What you call boring, I might call clean. I wasn't really factoring looks tbh. My bad.

 @DiveH: Agreed...but looks are extremely important when you are spending thousands on a BIKE. When you can buy a functional bike for $200 at any local supercenter, bikes that command $5000+ have got to be awesome in every single way, and that includes the subjective aspects.

And that is one perfect explanation for why companies like Intense can charge $8000+ for a bike that other companies charge $5000 for.

 HA I was thinking the exact same thing reading through all those builds. Every one uses the Reverb. I thought we were over the Reverb by now.

 But the new one is supposed to be better.

Then you read yesterday's review about the Rocky Mountain Slayer and take a big laugh about it! haha

I suppose that if you want your bike to have sram guide and 11speed, you MUST put a reverb on it too so even if they don't really want, they have no choice to please Sram!?

 Speaking of where the fuck is the V4 nomad, come on santa cruz

 Tracer isn't a freeride frame. The Uzzi is (and alloy too, btw).

 Not sure how many carbon frames are made in the USA anyways. I could be wrong tho...

 @barbaricht RideGG.com

 If you are already spending $6k for a great bike that looks meh, you are not going to mind spending $8k for one that turns heads and drops jaws. It's the style and the name, without a doubt.

 @TheRaven: That extra £2k would buy me a whole lot of stuff I need rather than paying for people looking at me...

 @lee-vps-savage: You are correct...but for $10k you could have both the incredible looking bike AND $2k of extra stuff.

Again, it's all about what's most important to you. If you are uncomfortable spending $8k on a bike because there are other things you need that you feel are more important, then there are cheaper bikes you can look at, or perhaps this is not the time to buy a new bike.

This is why we have so many different brands out there at so many different price ranges. A YT or Canyon is not the bike for me because I prioritize reputation and service too high, and also have the extra cash necessary to do that. Perhaps Intense is not the bike for you because the most important thing to you is that you get absolute maximum functional value for your dollar, and style and brand is much farther down your list. Nothing wrong with that.

 @TheRaven: I disagree as my previous Bronson2 cost $9288 in the build I chose, I think you may overlook service from Intense as they have never been brilliant and for me a Santacruz in the right colour is a far better looking bike, there will always be an exception but it is an individual choice, Intense are good bikes but heavily overpriced when you look at similar bikes and what you get for the money.

 You'd be a fool to. You could buy this exact bike as frame only and parts, and build it yourself for 8K, and that's without discount.

if the frame costs the same as a Santa Cruz / Evil etc then why should the bike cost £2k more? They are just praying on people with more money than sense to just hand the dollar over without actually realizing they are being ripped off by 2k....

I put a Factory build Primer (pre production with Next SL and XX1 instead of Eagle) together for £4500 - Intense wanted £8800 !!!

 @lee-vps-savage: So that was 2k cheaper than Intense (as you said above)? I don't think Intense sells a near-$12k bike.

I've had the opposite experience with Intense customer service. It's been near perfect in my experience.

 @lee-vps-savage: Also, looking at "similar bikes", they are similarly priced. Again, there are cheaper bikes, but they don't carry the reputation of the Intense name.

 @TheRaven: Um no. If I'm spending $6k for a bike, I'm not spending another $2k for looks and a name.

 @tgent: My point exactly, why waste $2k for people to look at you, which they may well not (probably wont), you could spend that $2k on a holiday somewhere with your new bike (probably not an Intense).

 @tgent: I never said YOU should. If you prioritize functional value high enough then this is not the bike for you. Intense has NEVER been about value.

 @TheRaven: Lol, I took "If YOU are already spending..." to mean me. You're right Intense is not about value, but on the other hand their prices are astronomical when compared to other brands that are not considered "value brands," Santa Cruz comes to mind.

To each their own though, I understand that people buy these things for reasons that are important to them. I bought a Santa Cruz when I could have saved $2k and bought a YT for reasons that are important to me. I think there is a point of diminishing returns however and I personally would not spend $2k more for what you get with an Intense.

 @tgent: Sometimes you have to zoom out to understand your own insanity. To put that in perspective, I consider all of us here pretty insane. After all we consider $3000 a bargain for a bicycle. My wife has reminded me of that fact more than once when I flip out over her new $400 purse.

So having said that, when one spends that much money on something, it needs to be something that one REALLY REALLY wants. Like the kind of purchase that makes 3-day shipping seem like an eternity. The kind of purchase that's almost as awesome just to look at and touch as it is to use. My all-black Enduro 29 Expert, my Black/Flo Orange SJ Evo, my Tracer 275...all bikes I can just admire for like an hour. I cannot say the same about anything from Santa Cruz...despite my utmost respect for quality of their products. It's kinda like Lexus vs. Cadillac for me...I know Lexus builds top of the line cars just like Cadillac does...but a new Lexus makes me yawn while a new Cadillac stops me in my tracks.

This, of course, is different for everyone. There are even the guys who do not care at all what their bike looks like. I cannot sympathize with them at all, but they are out there.

 @TheRaven: www.cadillac.com/crossovers-suvs/xt5-crossover.html How awkward!

 @lee-vps-savage: Eh? You don't like?

I will admit I was at first a bit disappointed to see the pics, but in person it's easily the best looking of it's class IMO. Except the wheels...GM has some kind of aversion to good looking wheels. But that's easily remedied.

 The alloy fun police are coming....

 I've got a 30lb Aluminum Megatrail that ticks all my boxs that I built and it cost less than half that bike. I'm not paying 5k+ extra for -2lbs and I'll take a threaded BB all day long.

Long live alloy.

 Good one.

 Makes you realize how amazing DMR has become, that even a company like Intense is going to design bikes that look just like that.

 5300 eu with shimano BLM506 brakes....

 Case jumps, expect failures.

 I’m not sure where you expected the gargantuan force of that beyond extreme case to go. If that bike didn’t break his wrists might have, hahaha

 Bullshit. I happened to mention I had a problem with a rubber guard on the mtbr intense forum. Sam from intense pops up and says 'shoot me an email' about it. I do, and he is shipping me a new guard. Now that is customer service - I didn't even ask for it - these guys are pro-active man!

 @Ralston88: This, from my experience, is not a fact.

 They're both based off VPP, though Intense tweaked theirs slightly and call it the "JS Link." Not sure how much it actually differs from VPP. Also, the Bronson has a single sided rear triangle, so many are comparing this to the Nomad.

 @tgent: SC's ownership of the VPP patent expired, so Intense doesn't have to pay a license fee anymore. Quite pretentious from the Intense owner to jut rename the same linkage after himself...

 Intense and SC have always had very similar looking bikes since they started using the same suspension. Shows how much suspension design constrains bike design.

 @mikericci: Jeff has always put his own "tune or tweek" on the VPP linkage design. Just so you know he's not pretentious at all, the name JS Tuned devoleped organically at our factory. It was a common statement to hear around the office "Jeff put this tune on bike X, etc. So essentially it was the staff at Intense who helped rename our suspension platform.
You may want to be a little more informed before making statements. ????????

 Sounds like the suspension kinematics are diff.. Nomad has been know to sit in its travel and blow thru it too easily...hence the push 11.6 curing that